From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Feb  1 01:13:03 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:13:03 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Word of the Day - Uberveillance]
Message-ID: <49854B7F.3050702@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/c7f35346/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bushfires.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 11288 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/c7f35346/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: flood.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 25995 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/c7f35346/attachment-0001.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Word of the Day - Uberveillance
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 22:53:05 -0500
Size: 55153
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/c7f35346/attachment.eml 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 10:17:46 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:17:46 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul
Message-ID: <c25.53cab5db.36b7252a@aol.com>

Shalom to all!
 
There will be no Sunday Shul tonight (Sunday, February 1st). It is not  
because of the Super Bowl. I honestly only heard last night that it was to be  
played tonight. I do not even know who is playing. I do realize however that  many 
people have a wonderful time with their families and friends during this  
event and so I hope that people will use the time to connect with loved ones. I  
will devote this time to doing the same.
 
I am actually in need of a short time to transition from my series on  
Restoring Abrahamic Faith into my next series. I have something worked out that  I 
believe will be a weekly insightful look at the Torah and the Prophets, but I  
want to work on it a bit.
 
The new class will be posted every week as all of my other classes for  
nearly three years now. I will include a blog entry and intend to stay ahead of  
the Torah Readings (annual cycle) so that people will have an entire week to  
download and listen BEFORE the Sabbath or use it as a study session on the  
Sabbath.
 
More to come in the next few days. I will publish at some point today  
(hopefully), my notes on the Torah Reading Be-Shallach - an incredible portion  full 
of good points.
 
Love and Shalom - and may your favorite team knock the socks off of the  
other team!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay 
up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/a37d9965/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:34:25 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:34:25 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
In-Reply-To: <00e801c98262$a1658280$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <20090128154964.1D83DFB11619@elabs3.com>
	<302D41DD-9181-4B0A-9001-94D629B3679F@earthlink.net>
	<051001c981ae$06c890f0$1459b2d0$@com>
	<A518BA13-80F7-445A-9716-E40F5789150C@earthlink.net>
	<855590370901281803h187eed57g1c37bd572fe24341@mail.gmail.com>
	<00e801c98262$a1658280$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <855590370902011734o4d5927faj9589c1b8c83eab69@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Marvin & everyone,

     I just got back from seeing "Defiance" - my first foray outside in over
two weeks.  Of course there was Hollywood influence to create personal
drama, but it seemed to be true to the facts as I've read about, and seen in
a documentary.

     Marvin, since you had mentioned the issue of 'emmuna' - I *was *looking
for it, and indeed, it did seem that they had developed more as time went
on.  Discussing the Holocaust, and how people acted/reacted is really a
very, very sensitive subject.  One, that I feel can only truly be spoken
about from someone who was actually there, at that time.  Someone who was
faced with deciding to try to run, or staying with their family; a dilemma I
pray none of us ever face.

     I would imagine that their faith began to grow the longer they were
able to survive.  To have gotten through the winter, starvation, German
attacks, in my opinion - could conceiveably lead to a growth in emmuna -
faith.  I know that it would work that way with me...At least I think I
would.

     Many people went through the Holocaust and lost their entire families,
but emerged with an unshakable faith in HaShem.  Others went through the
same thing, and no longer had *any *faith in HaShem.  It is something that I
cannot judge, and we cannot know how we would behave in that same
situation.

    The Bielski brothers were unlikely heroes, but they rose to the moment,
and managed to
save almost 1,200 people - who have tens of thousands of descendants today.
May their memories always be remembered for a blessing.

             * Hanoch
*
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:40 PM, mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

>  Hey guys and gals,
>
>
>
> The wife and I went to see this movie last Sunday afternoon.  It was a very
> moving picture.  I know these things happened in history but I still cannot
> get my mind wrapped around how people can treat there fellow man in such a
> way.  With out giving the movie away, there is a little tension between the
> two older brothers, they had different opinions about how to deal with the
> situation and how they were going to survive.  Something I thought, I
> noticed in the movie?..  although the brothers did not seem to be very
> religious in the beginning as things went along, they seem to show / have
> more faith (emunah).   Hanoch, If you see the movie and think about it, come
> back and give us a good Jewish understanding of emunah in the context of
> that movie and those events.
>
>
>
> There were 75 ? 100 people in the theatre when the movie ended it was quite
> as could be. No one moved for like 5 seconds. Then as people stood, to leave
> no one spoke, not a sound.  I wondered if there was anyone in the crowd that
> understood what we understand.  I don't buy many movie's on DVD, but this
> will be one I'm going to get.  Well worth the time.
>
>
>
> marvin
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:04 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
>
>
>
> No, it's about the Bielski brothers who set up a large Partisan camp in
> Belarus, and saved approximately 1,200 Jews.  They did amazing things...
>
>
>
>               *  Hanoch*
>
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:14 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> No, but I know of several books/films that were made on story of the
> resistance at Sobibor in 1943. I wonder if this has that same setting. There
> was a book by Thomas Blat called They Fought Back. I definitely want to see
> this and probably get the book for sure for the United Israel/Horowitz
> library.
>
>
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Patty wrote:
>
>
>
>    Hey James,
>
>
>
> Dave and I wanted to see this ? have you seen/read it?
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
> mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org<dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *James Tabor
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:06 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
>
>
>
>
>
> Something to definitely watch for and/or read...James
>
>
>
>
>
> This message contains graphics. If you do not see graphics, please click
> here<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,c3tv,3cwq,2la5,m1hy>
> .
>
> [image: Oxford University Press]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,dsab,klvq,2la5,m1hy>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Now a Major Motion Picture Starring Daniel Craig and Liev Schreiber*
>
> [image: Defiance]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,mbq3,jh3v,2la5,m1hy>
>
>
>
> *Key Features:*
>
> ? Reconstructs a poignant and   unforgettable story
>
> ? Tec offers penetrating insight
>   into the group's commander,   Tuvia Bielski
>
> ? Tec, a Holocaust survivor,
>   draws on wide-ranging
>   research and never-before-   published interviews with   surviving
> partisans
>
>
>
> *Defiance<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,mbq3,jh3v,2la5,m1hy>
> *
> *Nechama Tec *
> ISBN: 9780195376852
> Paperback, January 2009, 416 pp.
> List Price:$14.95
> [image: Buy Now]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,lepw,jx7f,2la5,m1hy>
>
> The prevailing image of European Jews during the Holocaust is one of
> helpless victims, but in fact many Jews struggled against the terrors of the
> Third Reich. In*Defiance<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,mbq3,jh3v,2la5,m1hy>
> *, Nechama Tec offers a riveting history of one such group, a forest
> community in western Belorussia that would number more than 1,200 Jews by
> 1944?the largest armed rescue operation of Jews by Jews in World War II.
>
> Tec reconstructs for the first time the amazing details of how these
> partisans and their families?hungry, exposed to the harsh winter
> weather?managed not only to survive, but to offer protection to all Jewish
> fugitives who could find their way to them. Tec brings to light the untold
> story of Bielski's struggle as a partisan who lost his parents, wife, and
> two brothers to the Nazis, yet never wavered in his conviction that it was
> more important to save one Jew than to kill twenty Germans.
>
> *Review:*
> "Excellent." ?David Denby, *The New Yorker*
>
> *About the Author:*
> *Nechama Tec* is Professor of Sociology at the University of Connecticut,
> Stamford. She is the author of six books, including *In the Lion's Den:
> The Life of Oswald Rufeisen*, the winner of the 1990 Christopher Award, *When
> Light Pierced the Darkness*, and *Dry Tears*, a memoir of her experiences
> during the years of the Nazi occupation of Poland.
>
>
>
> *Also Recommended*
>
> [image: In the Lion's Den]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,k3fe,1ftm,2la5,m1hy>
> *In the
> Lion's Den<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,k3fe,1ftm,2la5,m1hy>
> *
>
> List: $14.95
>
> [image: Hidden Children of the Holocaust]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,knrt,7p4d,2la5,m1hy>
> *Hidden Children of the Holocaust <http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,i9s3,fgq3,2la5,m1hy>
> *
>
> List:  $24.95
> Sale: $19.96
>
> [image: Crossing Hitler]<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,7oq4,gnzp,2la5,m1hy>
> *Crossing Hitler<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,7oq4,gnzp,2la5,m1hy>
> *
>
> List: $27.95
>
> Oxford University Press | 198 Madison Avenue | New York, NY 10016
> Update Your Preferences<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,b0c,mbgd,2la5,m1hy>
>  | Unsubscribe<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,lp7d,5x5t,2la5,m1hy>
>  | Customer Service<http://www.elabs3.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=ef6,z7v6,5j,ii02,b69h,2la5,m1hy>
>
> Oxford University Press will *never* sell, rent, or trade your email
> address to other companies. To unsubscribe or update your subscription
> preferences, please follow the links above.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/b83e707c/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:38:40 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:38:40 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Faith & Trusting in HaShem
Message-ID: <855590370902011738s13eac1bfw167f4b9069746ca5@mail.gmail.com>

Written by Rav Shalom Arush
Translated by Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=Rabbi+Lazer+Brody&type=1&fulltype=authors&pageid=1&language=english>

Let's learn a few lessons that the MBA candidates at Harvard and Penn
business school don't yet know, so I hope you'll find the next few minutes
of reading this article both eye-opening and enjoyable. When we live our
lives the way Hashem wants us too, we're not only successful, but we're
having a good time too, and it doesn't matter whether there's a recession
going on or anything else. That's all nature ? when a person attaches
himself to Hashem, he rises above all natural influences.

Parshat Bashalach in the Torah not only teaches about how Hashem split the
Red Sea, but it also teaches us the secret of an easy income, or making a
living effortlessly, with no headaches, without breaking our backs like a
pack mule, and without working from sunup until sundown.

"Parshat HaMan", which you'll find in Exodus 16:4-36, is the account of the
manna falling from heaven, the heavenly sustenance that Hashem fed the
Children of Israel during the 40 years that they wandered in the desert. The
special attribute of Parshat HaMan is that it unlocks the secret of an easy
income. That's why many people read Parshat HaMan every single day, for our
sages teach us that the mere utterance of Parshat HaMan invokes blessings of
abundance.

Hashem gives us a free choice as to how we'll receive our income: If we
choose to incorporate emuna ? the pure and steadfast belief in Hashem ? in
our efforts to earn our daily bread, then we are assured an easy income. If
we seek our income without emuna, and opt for a life of wage slavery, then
Hashem allows us to seek our money in natural means. This way, especially
with the economic situation what it is today puts a person in big trouble.
Without Hashem, heaven forbid, a person is at the mercy of numerous cruel
factors in a cold and cutthroat world, such as inflation, tight job market,
competition, dishonest employers, clients that don't pay their bills,
breakdowns ? you name it.

Parshat HaMan begins with Hashem telling Moses, "I shall rain upon you food
from heaven; let the people go out and gather each day's portion daily, so
that I can test them whether they shall follow my Torah or not."

Hashem gives the Children of Israel a lesson in emuna, a lesson in trust ? *
bitachon*. Rashi explains that if the people will trust Hashem, and live
according to His commandments, then they'll have their daily bread
effortlessly, like princes in the royal palace.

Our sages in the Gemara say that the Torah was intended for the people who
eat manna (see Midrash Tanchuma, Beshalach, 20 and Mechilta, Vayisa 2). This
seems difficult to understand, for only the generation of the Exodus from
Egypt received the manna. As soon as the Children of Israel entered Eretz
Yisrael, the manna was discontinued. So what does it mean that the Torah was
intended specifically for those who eat manna?

Our sages teach us that a person with emuna and bitachon, complete belief
and trust in Hashem, who has so much faith in Hashem to the extent that he
believes that his daily bread will be delivered to his doorstep just like
food from heaven, will have such an easily effortless income that he'll be
able to channel almost all his energies into learning Torah rather than
chasing after an elusive dollar.

The greatest tzaddikim such as the Baal Shem Tov and the Noam Elimelech
couldn't sleep at night if there was even a penny in their house. They'd
give all their extra money to charity, because they *believed* ? even
better, they *knew* that Hashem would give them all their needs every day.

At this point, many raise an eyebrow ? they can't believe in anything other
than the might of their hand or the sweat of their brow. Yet, when a human
depends on himself, he has nothing other than a wobbly reed to lean on,
because even the slightest one-celled bacteria or virus can totally
incapacitate him. If we look at the world with even slightly spiritual eyes,
rather than with the eyes of a pack mule, we'd see that we're totally
dependent on Hashem. If a person thinks that he or she is dependent on their
own strengths and abilities, then spiritually, they're on the level of a
beast of burden, and their lives will become as hard as a pack mule's.

The key to an easy and adequate income is to know what our job is ? it's
Hashem's job to provide a living, and it's our job to do Teshuva, for our
transgressions inhibit our income. With teshuva, we open up the spiritual
pipes of abundance. Our sages teach that Hashem provides an easy livelihood
for those who trust in Him. Trusting in Hashem means that we also do what He
wants us to do, such as observing the Sabbath and dealing fairly with
others. Many people ? the pack mules ? think they can't make a living
without working on the Sabbath. But, even when they apparently generate
income by going against Hashem's will, they end up losing it and more ? with
breakdowns, sicknesses, and all sorts of mishaps.

Without trust in Hashem, a person works too hard and doesn't succeed in
learning Torah. To learn Torah, one needs to trust Hashem. Whenever I
encourage people to learn more Torah, many ask, "What will be with work,
with making a living?" I tell them that they could make a living with half
their current effort if they had trust in Hashem, and could channel more
hours a day into learning. It works! We should all be praying every day that
Hashem should help us acquire the level of emuna and trust where we can
learn Torah more and work less. Hashem doesn't waste such an exquisite gem ?
a human soul ? on a pack mule. We're given the free choice to decide what we
want to be ? a prince or a pack mule.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/8dd243a9/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:43:01 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:01 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Teshuvah During Zion's Birth'
Message-ID: <855590370902011743w25bf8ae4n725df3f46ad42614@mail.gmail.com>

Teshuvah During Zion's Birth Shevat 7, 5769, 01 February 09 10:06
by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen

(IsraelNN.com) In a previous article on this
theme<http://www.israelnn.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8517>,
I cited the following advice of the Prophet Isaiah regarding the difficult
and dangerous final "birth pangs" just before the "birth" of Zion's children
and the beginning of the messianic age: "Go, my people, enter your rooms and
close your door behind you; hide for a brief moment until the fury has
passed." (Isaiah 26:20)

The commentator, Radak, offers the following explanation of "Enter your
rooms": "This is a parable for taking shelter in good deeds and complete *
teshuvah* (return)."

The root meaning of *teshuvah* is *shuv* - return. Through *teshuvah*, we
return to *HaShem*; moreover, we also return to the sacred essence of our
souls, for we are created in the Divine image. In order to engage in a
complete *teshuvah*, we need to return to the Divine path of the Torah, as
the *mitzvos* of this path enable us to express our inner Divine image in
"all" areas of our existence. It was for this higher and holistic purpose
that we were given the Land of Zion, as Moshe proclaimed to our people
before we entered the Land: "See, I have taught you statutes and social laws
which *HaShem*, my God, has commanded me, so that you may act accordingly in
the midst of the Land to possess it." (Deuteronomy 4:5)

Through fulfilling the Divine mandates in the Land, we develop a model
society which can inspire other peoples; thus, Moshe added: "You shall
safeguard and fulfill them, for it is your wisdom and understanding in the
eyes of the peoples, who shall hear all these statutes and who shall say,
'Surely a wise and understanding people is this great nation!' " (*ibid*4:6)

A complete *teshuvah* therefore enables us to fulfill our universal and
spiritual mission in the Land and thereby become a "light to the nations"
(Isaiah 42:6).

Whenever we were faced with any danger or threat, our prophets called upon
us to evaluate our behavior and engage in a process of *teshuvah*. For
example, when our people were facing the danger of an invasion by Babylonia,
the Prophet Jeremiah proclaimed the following Divine message: "Thus said *
HaShem*, God of all the hosts of creation, God of Israel: Improve your ways
and your deeds and I will cause you to dwell in this place." (Jeremiah 7:3)

In the spirit of the above Divine message, the Prophet Hosea proclaimed:
"Return, O Israel, unto *HaShem*, Your God, for you have stumbled in your
iniquity. Take words with you and return to *HaShem*; say to Him, 'May you
forgive all iniquity and accept this as good, and we will fulfill the words
of our lips with the strength of bullocks. Assyria will not save us; we will
not ride upon horses, and we will no longer say to the works of our hands,
"our god"; for it is with You that an orphan finds compassion.' " (Hosea
14:2-4)

"Assyria will not save us" - we are cured from that mistake which previously
made us look for an alliance with the other nations as a substitute for the
protection of *HaShem* (according to the commentary of Rabbi Samson Raphael
Hirsch).

"We will not ride upon horses" - we are also cured from worshiping our
strength and military might. (*ibid*)

There is a *mitzvah* which is to serve as a wake-up call to engage in *
teshuvah* during all periods of danger and troubles. This is the
*mitzvah*for the
*kohanim* (priests), during the Temple period, to blow trumpets during a
period of war or any other calamity, and a source for this *mitzvah* is
found in the following verse: "When you go to wage war in your land against
the oppressor that oppresses you, you should sound short blasts of the
trumpets, and you shall be remembered before *HaShem*, your God, and you
will be saved from your enemies." (Numbers 10:9)

Maimonides explains that the war mentioned in the above verse is an example
of any calamity; thus, the verse is conveying the following message:
"Whenever you are beset by any calamity such as drought, pestilence, locust,
etc., you are to offer up supplications concerning it and sound the
trumpets. And this conduct is one of the ways of *teshuvah*, for when
calamity befalls the people, and they offer up supplications concerning it -
sounding also the trumpets - all are bound to realize that it is owing to
their bad ways that misfortune has befallen them, as it is written, 'Your
iniquities have withheld these (blessings) from you; your errors have lost
you the good.' (Jeremiah 5:25) And it is this conduct which will cause them
to remove the calamity from them. However, if they neither offer up such
supplications nor sound the trumpets, declaring that what has befallen them
is but a natural event or that this misfortune is the result of chance and
accident, then their course is one of cruelty, and it causes them to persist
in their bad ways. Thus, their misfortune is bound to be followed by many
others." (*Mishneh Torah*, "The Laws of the Fast Days" 1:1-3)

The above teachings remind us that there is a need for *teshuvah* during a
dangerous period, and especially during the final birth pangs before the
arrival of the messianic age of spiritual enlightenment and *shalom*. There
are some individuals, however, who feel that it is only the "other" person
that needs to do *teshuvah*, as they feel that they do not have faults which
need to be corrected. Sensitive and wise souls recognize that this is a
foolish and arrogant assumption; thus, they begin the process of
*teshuvah*with themselves in order to bring us closer to the new age
of spiritual
enlightenment and *shalom*. Through the process of *teshuvah*, these
sensitive and wise souls seek to become a source of strength for our
endangered people, and they also seek ways to strengthen our unity. They
therefore ask themselves challenging questions such as these:

Do I nurture myself spiritually each day through Torah study and prayer?

Do I try to apply the teachings of the Torah to my life and thereby become a
source of inspiration for others?

Are there relationships with family members, neighbors, friends and
colleagues which need healing or strengthening?

Am I holding on to old grudges which prevent me from becoming a more loving
person?

Do I tend to be overly critical and judgmental of individuals, my community,
and my people?

Let us therefore hear the message of the trumpets of *teshuvah*. We will
then be able to hear the trumpets which will proclaim the arrival of the
messianic age, when all human beings will acknowledge the sovereignty of *
HaShem*, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One:

"With trumpets and the sound of the *shofar*, call out before the Sovereign,
*HaShem*. The sea and its fullness will roar, the inhabited land and those
who dwell therein; rivers will clap hands, mountains will exult together
before *HaShem*, for He will have arrived to judge the Earth. He will judge
the world with righteousness and peoples with fairness." (Psalm 98:6-9)
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/42236407/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:47:32 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:47:32 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] GREAT song - Tikva (Hope),
	Subtitles and meaningful lyrics
Message-ID: <855590370902011747i28eef1ddr6c492981adc51e9e@mail.gmail.com>

Click here: YouTube - Subliminal & The Shadow - Tikva (Hope)
[Subtitled]<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPMKHtAsa9U>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/f9c0ad6e/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  1 21:26:17 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:26:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Den Danske Forening
In-Reply-To: <4984E85D.2010508@westnet.com.au>
References: <4984E85D.2010508@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <715F7BFEE92F4B9D97A2DB418A7807E6@bettylaptop>

Shalom Joe,

 

Toda rabba for forwarding this article to us.  It is very gripping, yet
concise.  I encourage each of you out there to take one or two minutes to
read it!  It speaks volumes.  Please convey my regards to Eli, Nira and
children Gal, Itamar and Ofri and thank Eli for his search.  It was well
worth it.  Thank you as always for your encouragement, Joe, and please thank
Eli as well.  

 

Shalomv'Ahavah,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:10 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Den Danske Forening

 

Shalom Chaverim,

My mate Eli has asked me to forward this article to you all.
He originally read it in Ivrit and searched high and low until he found it
in English.

Best Regards and well wishes to you from Eli, Nira and his children Gal,
Itamar and Ofri.
They encourage us all in our search for truth and redemption.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
http://www.dendanskeforening.dk/side295.html 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090201/c526ec81/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Feb  2 02:04:39 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 02:04:39 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] 'The Path to the Final Solution'
In-Reply-To: <855590370901311910m76452562p8470ccba95bd9573@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370901311910m76452562p8470ccba95bd9573@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F902E5276944CBD9D6ACB3332765F60@bettylaptop>

Definitely not fun, but very sobering and necessary.

 

May HaShem be with us and with all His people, blessing those who bless
Israel and cursing those who curse her!

 

Shavua tov chaverim,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:10 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] 'The Path to the Final Solution'

 

Shavua tov to all,

 

       This is another video that MUST be seen.  Not fun, but very, very
important.

                 Hanoch

 

Click
<http://propheciesandbiblecodes.ning.com/video/video/show?id=2496420%3AVideo
%3A7386&xgs=1>  here: The Path To The Final Solution - The Bible Codes

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/20739b3d/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 06:46:38 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Faith & Trusting in HaShem
In-Reply-To: <855590370902011738s13eac1bfw167f4b9069746ca5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902011738s13eac1bfw167f4b9069746ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <047288B3-A785-461B-855F-D44FC2443FE4@earthlink.net>

Although I agree with a part of this I think on the whole it is  
unbalanced in terms of Tanakh teaching and thus quite misleading.  
Clearly we should not be devoid of Emunah, trusting in ourselves, but  
rather look to HaShem on a daily basis. On the other hand we are told  
that "six days you shall labor and do all your work" which implies  
that productive activity is also part of the commandment--not just  
studying Torah all day and expecting things to be delivered to our  
doors. Saving and planning ahead are also Torah principles,  
illustrated many places, and giving away everything is more a  
Christian idea, not a Torah based notion. Someone has to be involved  
in our society in creativity, in hard work, in invention, and in  
bringing about the things from which we all benefit. True, we should  
try not to be part of the cutthroat rat race of our economic system  
but it is naive and unrealistic to think others will take care of all  
the needs of society while we just "trust HaShem."

What is attractive about the Torah is the balance. There was a time  
for the desert experience and the manna, but also a time for entering  
the land and building it. Can you imagine Israel today if only those  
who "studied" all day had pioneered its founding. All the hard work  
and effort of the pioneers in that post-Holocaust world are inspiring  
and truly amazing--and a nation was indeed born in a day.

Just some Monday morning thoughts before I head out to "work" in the  
real world...

James

On Feb 1, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Hanoch Young wrote:

> Written by Rav Shalom Arush
> Translated by Rabbi Lazer Brody
>
> Let's learn a few lessons that the MBA candidates at Harvard and  
> Penn business school don't yet know, so I hope you'll find the next  
> few minutes of reading this article both eye-opening and enjoyable.  
> When we live our lives the way Hashem wants us too, we're not only  
> successful, but we're having a good time too, and it doesn't matter  
> whether there's a recession going on or anything else. That's all  
> nature ? when a person attaches himself to Hashem, he rises above  
> all natural influences.
>
> Parshat Bashalach in the Torah not only teaches about how Hashem  
> split the Red Sea, but it also teaches us the secret of an easy  
> income, or making a living effortlessly, with no headaches, without  
> breaking our backs like a pack mule, and without working from sunup  
> until sundown.
>
> "Parshat HaMan", which you'll find in Exodus 16:4-36, is the account  
> of the manna falling from heaven, the heavenly sustenance that  
> Hashem fed the Children of Israel during the 40 years that they  
> wandered in the desert. The special attribute of Parshat HaMan is  
> that it unlocks the secret of an easy income. That's why many people  
> read Parshat HaMan every single day, for our sages teach us that the  
> mere utterance of Parshat HaMan invokes blessings of abundance.
>
> Hashem gives us a free choice as to how we'll receive our income: If  
> we choose to incorporate emuna ? the pure and steadfast belief in  
> Hashem ? in our efforts to earn our daily bread, then we are assured  
> an easy income. If we seek our income without emuna, and opt for a  
> life of wage slavery, then Hashem allows us to seek our money in  
> natural means. This way, especially with the economic situation what  
> it is today puts a person in big trouble. Without Hashem, heaven  
> forbid, a person is at the mercy of numerous cruel factors in a cold  
> and cutthroat world, such as inflation, tight job market,  
> competition, dishonest employers, clients that don't pay their  
> bills, breakdowns ? you name it.
>
> Parshat HaMan begins with Hashem telling Moses, "I shall rain upon  
> you food from heaven; let the people go out and gather each day's  
> portion daily, so that I can test them whether they shall follow my  
> Torah or not."
>
> Hashem gives the Children of Israel a lesson in emuna, a lesson in  
> trust ? bitachon. Rashi explains that if the people will trust  
> Hashem, and live according to His commandments, then they'll have  
> their daily bread effortlessly, like princes in the royal palace.
>
> Our sages in the Gemara say that the Torah was intended for the  
> people who eat manna (see Midrash Tanchuma, Beshalach, 20 and  
> Mechilta, Vayisa 2). This seems difficult to understand, for only  
> the generation of the Exodus from Egypt received the manna. As soon  
> as the Children of Israel entered Eretz Yisrael, the manna was  
> discontinued. So what does it mean that the Torah was intended  
> specifically for those who eat manna?
>
> Our sages teach us that a person with emuna and bitachon, complete  
> belief and trust in Hashem, who has so much faith in Hashem to the  
> extent that he believes that his daily bread will be delivered to  
> his doorstep just like food from heaven, will have such an easily  
> effortless income that he'll be able to channel almost all his  
> energies into learning Torah rather than chasing after an elusive  
> dollar.
>
> The greatest tzaddikim such as the Baal Shem Tov and the Noam  
> Elimelech couldn't sleep at night if there was even a penny in their  
> house. They'd give all their extra money to charity, because they  
> believed ? even better, they knew that Hashem would give them all  
> their needs every day.
>
> At this point, many raise an eyebrow ? they can't believe in  
> anything other than the might of their hand or the sweat of their  
> brow. Yet, when a human depends on himself, he has nothing other  
> than a wobbly reed to lean on, because even the slightest one-celled  
> bacteria or virus can totally incapacitate him. If we look at the  
> world with even slightly spiritual eyes, rather than with the eyes  
> of a pack mule, we'd see that we're totally dependent on Hashem. If  
> a person thinks that he or she is dependent on their own strengths  
> and abilities, then spiritually, they're on the level of a beast of  
> burden, and their lives will become as hard as a pack mule's.
>
> The key to an easy and adequate income is to know what our job is ?  
> it's Hashem's job to provide a living, and it's our job to do  
> Teshuva, for our transgressions inhibit our income. With teshuva, we  
> open up the spiritual pipes of abundance. Our sages teach that  
> Hashem provides an easy livelihood for those who trust in Him.  
> Trusting in Hashem means that we also do what He wants us to do,  
> such as observing the Sabbath and dealing fairly with others. Many  
> people ? the pack mules ? think they can't make a living without  
> working on the Sabbath. But, even when they apparently generate  
> income by going against Hashem's will, they end up losing it and  
> more ? with breakdowns, sicknesses, and all sorts of mishaps.
>
> Without trust in Hashem, a person works too hard and doesn't succeed  
> in learning Torah. To learn Torah, one needs to trust Hashem.  
> Whenever I encourage people to learn more Torah, many ask, "What  
> will be with work, with making a living?" I tell them that they  
> could make a living with half their current effort if they had trust  
> in Hashem, and could channel more hours a day into learning. It  
> works! We should all be praying every day that Hashem should help us  
> acquire the level of emuna and trust where we can learn Torah more  
> and work less. Hashem doesn't waste such an exquisite gem ? a human  
> soul ? on a pack mule. We're given the free choice to decide what we  
> want to be ? a prince or a pack mule.
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/0e10c166/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 08:26:36 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 06:26:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
References: <20090128154964.1D83DFB11619@elabs3.com>
	<302D41DD-9181-4B0A-9001-94D629B3679F@earthlink.net>
	<051001c981ae$06c890f0$1459b2d0$@com>
	<A518BA13-80F7-445A-9716-E40F5789150C@earthlink.net>
	<855590370901281803h187eed57g1c37bd572fe24341@mail.gmail.com>
	<00e801c98262$a1658280$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<855590370902011734o4d5927faj9589c1b8c83eab69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <718188.43526.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Shalom,
My wife and I also went last night to see this movie. It surely was intense...but should we not remember those who have survived such horrendous episodes in history? I think it also serves to remind us what could happen again. HaShem please awaken those who are still asleep.

Love & Prayers,
Tracy




________________________________
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sunday, February 1, 2009 8:34:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture


Shalom Marvin & everyone,

???? I just got back from seeing "Defiance" - my first foray outside in over two weeks.? Of course there was Hollywood influence to create personal drama, but it seemed to be true to the facts as I've read about, and seen in a documentary.

???? Marvin, since you had mentioned the issue of 'emmuna' - I was looking for it, and indeed, it did seem that they had developed more as time went on.? Discussing the Holocaust, and how people acted/reacted is really a very, very sensitive subject.? One, that I feel can only truly be spoken about from someone who was actually there, at that time.? Someone who was faced with deciding to try to run, or staying with their family; a dilemma I pray none of us ever face.? 

???? I would imagine that their faith began to grow the longer they were able to survive.? To have gotten through the winter, starvation, German attacks, in my opinion - could conceiveably lead to a growth in emmuna - faith.? I know that it would work that way with me...At least I think I would.

???? Many people went through the Holocaust and lost their entire families, but emerged with an unshakable faith in HaShem.? Others went through the same thing, and no longer had any faith in HaShem.? It is something that I cannot judge, and we cannot know how we would behave in that same situation.? 

??? The Bielski brothers were unlikely heroes, but they rose to the moment, and managed to 
save almost 1,200 people - who have tens of thousands of descendants today.? May their memories always be remembered for a blessing.

?????????????Hanoch


On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:40 PM, mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

Hey guys and gals,
?
The wife and I went to see this movie last Sunday afternoon.? It was a very moving picture.? I know these things happened in history but I still cannot get my mind wrapped around how people can treat there fellow man in such a way.? With out giving the movie away, there is a little tension between the two older brothers, they had different opinions about how to deal with the situation and how they were going to survive.? Something I thought, I noticed in the movie?..? although the brothers did not seem to be very religious in the beginning as things went along, they seem to show / have more faith (emunah).?? Hanoch, If you see the movie and think about it, come back and give us a good Jewish understanding of emunah in the context of that movie and those events.
?
There were 75 ? 100 people in the theatre when the movie ended it was quite as could be. No one moved for like 5 seconds. Then as people stood, to leave no one spoke, not a sound.? I wondered if there was anyone in the crowd that understood what we understand.? I don't buy many movie's on DVD, but this will be one I'm going to get.? Well worth the time.
?
marvin
?

________________________________

From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:04 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
?
No, it's about the Bielski brothers who set up a large Partisan camp in Belarus, and saved approximately 1,200 Jews.? They did amazing things...
?
??????????????? Hanoch
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:14 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:
No, but I know of several books/films that were made on story of the resistance at Sobibor in 1943. I wonder if this has that same setting. There was a book by Thomas Blat called They Fought Back. I definitely want to see this and probably get the book for sure for the United Israel/Horowitz library. 
?
James
?
?
On Jan 28, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Patty wrote:
?
Hey James,
?
Dave and I wanted to see this ? have you seen/read it?
?
Patty
?
From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor
Sent:?Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:06 PM
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject:?[Dialogue] Fwd: Defiance: Now a Major Motion Picture
?
?
Something to definitely watch for and/or read...James
?
?
This message contains graphics. If you do not see graphics, please?click here.
 
? ? 
Now a Major Motion Picture Starring Daniel Craig and Liev Schreiber 
?
Key Features:
? Reconstructs a poignant and ??unforgettable story
? Tec offers penetrating insight?
??into the group's commander, ??Tuvia Bielski
? Tec, a Holocaust survivor,?
??draws on wide-ranging?
??research and never-before- ??published interviews with ??surviving partisans? ? 
Defiance
Nechama Tec?
ISBN: 9780195376852
Paperback, January 2009, 416 pp.
List Price:$14.95?


The prevailing image of European Jews during the Holocaust is one of helpless victims, but in fact many Jews struggled against the terrors of the Third Reich. InDefiance, Nechama Tec offers a riveting history of one such group, a forest community in western Belorussia that would number more than 1,200 Jews by 1944?the largest armed rescue operation of Jews by Jews in World War II.

Tec reconstructs for the first time the amazing details of how these partisans and their families?hungry, exposed to the harsh winter weather?managed not only to survive, but to offer protection to all Jewish fugitives who could find their way to them. Tec brings to light the untold story of Bielski's struggle as a partisan who lost his parents, wife, and two brothers to the Nazis, yet never wavered in his conviction that it was more important to save one Jew than to kill twenty Germans.?

Review:
"Excellent." ?David Denby,?The New Yorker?

About the Author:
Nechama Tec?is Professor of Sociology at the University of Connecticut, Stamford. She is the author of six books, including?In the Lion's Den: The Life of Oswald Rufeisen, the winner of the 1990 Christopher Award,?When Light Pierced the Darkness, and?Dry Tears, a memoir of her experiences during the years of the Nazi occupation of Poland. ? 
Also Recommended
In the
Lion's Den

List: $14.95
Hidden Children of the Holocaust?

List: ?$24.95?
Sale: $19.96
Crossing Hitler

List: $27.95
OxfordUniversity Press | 198 Madison Avenue | New York, NY 10016
Update Your Preferences?|?Unsubscribe?|?Customer Service
Oxford University Press will?never?sell, rent, or trade your email address to other companies. To unsubscribe or update your subscription preferences, please follow the links above.
?
_______________________________________________
?

_______________________________________________
?
_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/287e90c6/attachment.html 

From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Mon Feb  2 18:08:21 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:08:21 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] re: James Tabor's comments
References: <498702A4.F19A0.6F74@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <CD0CE21E8FD844F18077CC633BA18BD6@SEWVAC011>

re: James Tabor's comments



Although I agree with a part of this I think on the whole it is
unbalanced in terms of Tanakh teaching and thus quite misleading.
Clearly we should not be devoid of Emunah, trusting in ourselves, but
rather look to HaShem on a daily basis. On the other hand we are told
that "six days you shall labor and do all your work" which implies
that productive activity is also part of the commandment--not just
studying Torah all day and expecting things to be delivered to our
doors. Saving and planning ahead are also Torah principles,
illustrated many places, and giving away everything is more a
Christian idea, not a Torah based notion. Someone has to be involved
in our society in creativity, in hard work, in invention, and in
bringing about the things from which we all benefit. True, we should
try not to be part of the cutthroat rat race of our economic system
but it is naive and unrealistic to think others will take care of all
the needs of society while we just "trust HaShem."

What is attractive about the Torah is the balance. There was a time
for the desert experience and the manna, but also a time for entering
the land and building it. Can you imagine Israel today if only those
who "studied" all day had pioneered its founding. All the hard work
and effort of the pioneers in that post-Holocaust world are inspiring
and truly amazing--and a nation was indeed born in a day.

Just some Monday morning thoughts before I head out to "work" in the
real world...

James

---



As a "christian" I would have to say ---- yes, many preachers are

unbalenced in this area, forgetting Torah, and  also verses such as

:this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should

he eat...  I left a "church" [ place of fellowship ] I really enjoyed,

because while people prayed for Israel and those called to Israel,

they did not financially support people in the Land.



I enjoyed your book,  --- 



and did have one question for you, concerning my own study of

Isaac and Ishmael:



4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not 
be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count 
the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall 
your descendants be."

6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.



I note that --- Ishmael is NOT considered in the context of this paragraph, 
as coming from Abraham's own body.  Even

though, biologically, his seed engendered the birth of Ishmael.  I would be 
interested in those who understand Hebrew who might comment on this.  Does 
it refer to Sara as his spouse in marriage, being part of Abraham's body, in 
a way that

the handmaid was not?  This is the Word of the Lord.... "but one who will 
come from your own body shall be your heir"



Ishmael was not considered "one who will come from your own body"



An yet we also have Genesis 16:15 where Abram call's his son's name, 
Ishmael.  17:23, he

Is again referred to as his son, and in 17:25 Ishmael is circumcised.



And in Genesis 25:9 And his son(s) Isaac and Ishmael buried him ( Abraham )



Any thoughts on Genesis 15:4



And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be 
your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."



Where the Word of the Lord says to Abraham as noted above.



Thank-you,



Stephen

 


From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Mon Feb  2 19:16:08 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:16:08 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Please act on this pro Israel video on YouTube
Message-ID: <200902030116.n131G7Qo018407@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>


Subject: PLEASE READ AND ACT ASAP; DO NOT LET YOU TUBE REMOVE


Scroll down Click and watch the clip with English translation.


  PLEASE READ AND ACT ASAP; DO NOT LET YOU TUBE REMOVE


Please email to as many people as you can.


DO NOT let YouTube remove this video!



The IDF broadcasting on YouTube, presented by Capt. Avichai Adraee, an
Israel officer speaking Arabic, showing and explaining in full clarity what
is really going on in Gaza and how Hamas terrorists operate from the midst
of civilian neighborhood, schools and mosques and how they used a United
Nations school as shelter while firing mortar bombs at Israeli soldiers,
thus endangering Palestinian civilians ...

However, YouTube wants to remove this video by using the excuse that not too
many people are logging in.  So please watch the video at least once and
also forward this e-mail to as many people so they also log in and the IDF

will be able to have its voice heard.



Click on:
< 
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sznMP3dnCg&feature=PlayList&p=24B346594DCE3>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sznMP3dnCg&feature=PlayList&p=24B346594DCE3
F37&index=5 >
Just this one time, please send this mail to your entire list to your
friend, foes, distant relatives and/or acquaintances.  This rally is most
important as the Arab propaganda machine has cranked up and stands to
completely drown Israel 's position.
  Thank you.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used to
create them." Albert Einstein



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/815e9bbc/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  2 19:26:26 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:26:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Please act on this pro Israel video on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <200902030116.n131G7Qo018407@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <200902030116.n131G7Qo018407@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS126C94F8744D748D625E3BAC20@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Steve.  Sent it on!  

Pat


From: Steve Mathe 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:16 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Please act on this pro Israel video on YouTube



Subject: PLEASE READ AND ACT ASAP; DO NOT LET YOU TUBE REMOVE


    
      Scroll down Click and watch the clip with English translation.



       PLEASE READ AND ACT ASAP; DO NOT LET YOU TUBE REMOVE


       
      Please email to as many people as you can.



      DO NOT let YouTube remove this video!





      The IDF broadcasting on YouTube, presented by Capt. Avichai Adraee, an

      Israel officer speaking Arabic, showing and explaining in full clarity what

      is really going on in Gaza and how Hamas terrorists operate from the midst

      of civilian neighborhood, schools and mosques and how they used a United

      Nations school as shelter while firing mortar bombs at Israeli soldiers,

      thus endangering Palestinian civilians ...



      However, YouTube wants to remove this video by using the excuse that not too

      many people are logging in.  So please watch the video at least once and

      also forward this e-mail to as many people so they also log in and the IDF


      will be able to have its voice heard.





      Click on:

      < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sznMP3dnCg&feature=PlayList&p=24B346594DCE3 

      F37&index=5 >

      Just this one time, please send this mail to your entire list to your

      friend, foes, distant relatives and/or acquaintances.  This rally is most

      important as the Arab propaganda machine has cranked up and stands to

      completely drown Israel 's position.

       Thank you.


      "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used to

      create them." Albert Einstein







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/f7bc6b04/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 20:46:23 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:23 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some resources for Tu B'Shvat
Message-ID: <855590370902021846jad40481m4452dcf4bddc71a4@mail.gmail.com>

Click here: Jacob Richman's Hot Sites - Jewish - Holidays - Tu
B'Shvat<http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaytu.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/d3a472ba/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 20:58:10 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:58:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] For Purim
Message-ID: <855590370902021858k18b59b5er729067ee10d3aede@mail.gmail.com>

On Purim it's customary to give gifts of food as well as presents to the
poor.  There's a great way to do that below:
             * Hanoch*
**
     *Young Israel's Mishloach Manot & Matanot L'Evyonim Project*

*Send Mishloach Manot in Israel
to Relatives and Children,
Friends and IDF Soldiers

Matanot L'Evyonim
to be distributed to
Sderot's Needy

WWW.YIMANOT.ORG<http://via.readerimpact.com/c/161/14f3dc6148b7fa0a4be6f831e51cb7967b9fe6300cdc9e8a2ae13ca86ecd21c4>
*


  *WWW.YIMANOT.ORG*<http://via.readerimpact.com/c/161/14f3dc6148b7fa0a4be6f831e51cb7967b9fe6300cdc9e8a2ae13ca86ecd21c4>
  *ORDER TODAY!*

*American Friends of Yisrael Hatzair*, in conjunction with the *Worldwide
Young Israel* *Movement*, is once again providing top of the line *Mishloach
Manot packages for delivery ANYWHERE in Israel. *This is a great way to
share Purim with friends and loved ones while *supporting Young Israel's
charitable efforts in Israel.

*We also have a *package for IDF soldiers* - Young Israel will visit several
IDF bases and *distribute packages of Mishloach Manot to the brave men and
women protecting Eretz Yisrael.

*AND - *TO SUPPORT THE FAMILIES LIVING IN SDEROT, *Young Israel will
be *distributing
Matanot L'Evyonim on Purim* to help alleviate the pain and suffering of
their battered lives.

*DEADLINE IS FEB. 26TH!!* To order and for more information, please visit
our website: *www.yimanot.org<http://via.readerimpact.com/c/161/14f3dc6148b7fa0a4be6f831e51cb7967b9fe6300cdc9e8a2ae13ca86ecd21c4>
*

*Purim Sameach!*


          [image: http://www.yimanot.org/] <http://www.yimanot.org/>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/f89651bd/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 20:59:35 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:59:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] re: James Tabor's comments
In-Reply-To: <CD0CE21E8FD844F18077CC633BA18BD6@SEWVAC011>
References: <498702A4.F19A0.6F74@pop.directnic.com>
	<CD0CE21E8FD844F18077CC633BA18BD6@SEWVAC011>
Message-ID: <32A7FE7F-C91E-4CE1-9724-B96B9B642D89@earthlink.net>

Thanks for your comments Stephen. I am glad you benefited from my  
book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith.

Regarding your question on Genesis 15:4, the problem is in  
translation. Clearly in the text both Ishmael and Isaac come forth  
from Abraham's own body (lit. belly, i.e. testicles) and are his sons,  
bearing his Y chromosome as we would say today. The problem in the  
English is that the word "but" is wrongly emphasized: BUT one who will  
come from your own body shall be your heir...." as if to imply Ishmael  
was not that, which he clearly was. The statement in Hebrew is a  
contrast, but not between the one who is truly a son and the one who  
is not, but rather between the son who will not be his heir and one  
who will come forth [also] who will be. He is just being told that he  
is to have another son, and this one is not the one, even though he is  
firstborn. The whole thing has to do with the firstborn. We find this  
often actually, think of Jacob and Esau, with Esau as firstborn, then  
Reuben who is displaced and Joseph gets the birthright...

I hope this helps...

James

>
> As a "christian" I would have to say ---- yes, many preachers are
>
> unbalenced in this area, forgetting Torah, and  also verses such as
>
> :this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should
>
> he eat...  I left a "church" [ place of fellowship ] I really enjoyed,
>
> because while people prayed for Israel and those called to Israel,
>
> they did not financially support people in the Land.
>
>
>
> I enjoyed your book,  ---
>
>
> and did have one question for you, concerning my own study of
>
> Isaac and Ishmael:
>
>
>
> 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one  
> shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body  
> shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look  
> now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number  
> them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
>
> 6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for  
> righteousness.
>
>
>
> I note that --- Ishmael is NOT considered in the context of this  
> paragraph, as coming from Abraham's own body.  Even
>
> though, biologically, his seed engendered the birth of Ishmael.  I  
> would be interested in those who understand Hebrew who might comment  
> on this.  Does it refer to Sara as his spouse in marriage, being  
> part of Abraham's body, in a way that
>
> the handmaid was not?  This is the Word of the Lord.... "but one who  
> will come from your own body shall be your heir"
>
>
>
> Ishmael was not considered "one who will come from your own body"
>
>
>
> An yet we also have Genesis 16:15 where Abram call's his son's name,  
> Ishmael.  17:23, he
>
> Is again referred to as his son, and in 17:25 Ishmael is circumcised.
>
>
>
> And in Genesis 25:9 And his son(s) Isaac and Ishmael buried him  
> ( Abraham )
>
>
>
> Any thoughts on Genesis 15:4
>
>
>
> And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one  
> shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body  
> shall be your heir."
>
>
>
> Where the Word of the Lord says to Abraham as noted above.
>
>
>
> Thank-you,
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090202/4cdd7d13/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 02:02:32 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:02:32 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma.
Message-ID: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/63f4ec4a/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Tue Feb  3 02:13:42 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 00:13:42 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma.
In-Reply-To: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
References: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <200902030813.n138Dd4W019433@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>

Incredible!  Surely we are in the times of "the footsteps of the Messiah."
Steve


At 12:02 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote:
>Shalom Chaverim,
>
>I found this very interesting and disturbing article on the 
>President Designate, Barack Hussein Obama.
>
>I am not surprised seeing that the first international dignitary 
>that Obama telephoned on his day of inauguration was none other than 
>Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority ,who by 
>the way ,his tenure was up on the 9th of January. Obama's first 
>interview was to Al Arabiyah. No surprise here. He finally rang our 
>Prime Minister Kevin Rudd late last week. This would have never 
>occurred in the past between two great allies.
>Obama's botched oath of allegiance was retaken the following day 
>with one notable exception....... NO BIBLE !!!!!!!
>
>There are numerous Midrashim that concur that in the end of days 
>there would be a marriage of convenience between Esau/Edom, the West 
>and Yismael , the Arabs as occurred in the story of Bereishit chap 
>36. They in turn would scheme the eventual downfall of Yisrael. 
>HaShem has other plans to their frustration and demise.
>
>
>
>Genesis Chapter 36
>
>
>
>    , . 1 Now these are the generations of Esau--the same is Edom.
>    - , :  - , - , - - , - . 2 Esau took his wives of the daughters 
> of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah 
> the daughter of Anah, the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite,
>    - - , . 3 and Basemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth.
>    , - ; , - . 4 And Adah bore to Esau Eliphaz; and Basemath bore Reuel;
>    , , - ( ) - , - ; , - . 5 and Oholibamah bore Jeush, and Jalam, 
> and Korah. These are the sons of Esau, that were born unto him in 
> the land of Canaan.
>    - - - , - - , - - - - , ; - , . 6 And Esau took his wives, and 
> his sons, and his daughters, and all the souls of his house, and 
> his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his possessions, which he 
> had gathered in the land of Canaan; and went into a land away from 
> his brother Jacob.
>
>
>Tuesday, February 3
><http://shiratdevorah.blogspot.com/2009/02/obama-promised-warrior.html>Obama: 
>The Promised Warrior
>
>Apparently President Barack Hussein Obama employed representatives 
>and experts to hold 
><http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129728>secret 
>high-level talks with Iran and Syria months prior to his election as 
>president, organizers of the meetings told Agence France Presse on Monday.
>
>It would appear that the article originally published in Forbes 
>magazine on 26 Oct last year, and then quickly removed, is true and 
>therefore worth reprinting to refresh our memories:
>
>Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden 
>Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world? by Amir Taheri
>
>The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a 
>pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a 
>Shiite text of the 17th century. The tradition comes from Bahar 
>al-Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus 
>in 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.
>According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's 
>cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just 
>before the return of the Mahdi, the Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black 
>man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding 
>"the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry 
>"a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali. 
>The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is with us."
>
>In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--Barack 
>Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic and Persian. His 
>family name, Obama, written in the Persian alphabet, reads O Ba Ma, 
>which means "he is with us," the magic formula in Majlisi's tradition.
>
>Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees Obama's 
>rise as another sign of the West's decline and the triumph of Islam. 
>Obama's promise to seek unconditional talks with the Islamic 
>Republic is cited as a sign that the U.S. is ready to admit defeat. 
>Obama's position could mean abandoning three resolutions passed by 
>the United Nations Security Council setting conditions that Iran 
>should meet to avoid sanctions. Seeking unconditional talks with the 
>Khomeinists also means an admission of moral equivalence between the 
>U.S. and the Islamic Republic. It would imply an end to the 
>description by the U.S. of the regime as a "systematic violator of 
>human rights."
>
>Obama has abandoned claims by all U.S. administrations in the past 
>30 years that Iran is "a state sponsor of terrorism." Instead, he 
>uses the term "violent groups" to describe Iran-financed outfits 
>such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
>
>Obama has also promised to attend a summit of the Organization of 
>the Islamic Conference within the first 100 days of his presidency. 
>Such a move would please the mullahs, who have always demanded that 
>Islam be treated differently, and that Muslim nations act as a bloc 
>in dealings with Infidel nations.
>
>Obama's election would boost President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's chances 
>of winning a second term next June. Ahmadinejad's entourage claim 
>that his "steadfastness in resisting the American Great Satan" was a 
>factor in helping Obama defeat "hardliners" such as Hillary Clinton 
>and, later, it hopes, John McCain.
>
>"President Ahmadinejad has taught Americans a lesson," says Hassan 
>Abbasi, a "strategic adviser" to the Iranian president. "This is why 
>they are now choosing someone who understands Iran's power." The 
>Iranian leader's entourage also point out that Obama copied his 
>campaign slogan "Yes, We Can" from Ahmadinejad's "We Can," used four years ago.
>
>A number of Khomeinist officials have indicated their preference for 
>Obama over McCain, who is regarded as an "enemy of Islam." A Foreign 
>Ministry spokesman says Iran does not wish to dictate the choice of 
>the Americans but finds Obama "a better choice for everyone." Ali 
>Larijani, Speaker of the Islamic Majlis, Iran's ersatz parliament, 
>has gone further by saying the Islamic Republic "prefers to see 
>Barack Obama in the White House" next year.
>
>Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official media, 
>increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph Biden as his 
>vice-presidential running mate. Biden was an early supporter of the 
>Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979 and, for the past 30 years, has 
>been a consistent advocate of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a 
>regional power. He has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the 
>U.S. and has always voted against sanctions on Iran.
>
>Ahmadinejad has described the U.S. as a "sunset" (ofuli) power as 
>opposed to Islam, which he says is a "sunrise" (toluee) power. Last 
>summer, he inaugurated an international conference called World 
>Without America--attended by anti-Americans from all over the world, 
>including the U.S.
>
>Seen from Tehran, Obama's election would demoralize the U.S. armed 
>forces by casting doubt on their victories in Iraq and Afghanistan, 
>if not actually transforming them into defeat. American retreat from 
>the Middle East under Obama would enable the Islamic Republic to 
>pursue hegemony of the region. Tehran is especially interested in 
>dominating Iraq, thus consolidating a new position that extends its 
>power to the Mediterranean through Syria and Lebanon.
>During the World Without America conference, several speakers 
>speculated that Obama would show "understanding of Muslim 
>grievances" with regard to Palestine. Ahmadinejad hopes to persuade 
>a future President Obama to adopt the "Iranian solution for 
>Palestine," which aims at creating a single state in which Jews 
>would quickly become a minority.
>
>Judging by anecdotal evidence and the buzz among Iranian bloggers, 
>while the ruling Khomeinists favor Obama, the mass of Iranians 
>regard (and dislike) the Democrat candidate as an appeaser of the 
>mullahs. Iran, along with Israel, is the only country in the Middle 
>East where the United States remains popular. An Obama presidency, 
>perceived as friendly to the oppressive regime in Tehran, may change that.
>
>This article was reprinted from Forbes.com at the link shown below, 
>however the original article has now been removed 
><http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html>http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html
>
>This portends to some serious developments in the future that will 
>impact on us all.
>
>Baruch HaShem that HE alone is in full control of the affairs of men.
>The gathering of all nations into the Valley of Yehosaphat is one step closer.
>
>Blessed be the Holy One, for His mercy endures forever.
>
>Shalom v'Ahavah
>JOE.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/68eef8ea/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 03:00:04 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:00:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Please act on this pro Israel video on YouTube]
Message-ID: <49880794.7020800@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/6f25a6a3/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Please act on this pro Israel video on YouTube
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:16:08 -0800
Size: 7703
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/6f25a6a3/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 03:18:36 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:18:36 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths: Annoying News Lies
Message-ID: <49880BEC.8090209@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/d951f752/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 03:43:27 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:43:27 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.
Message-ID: <498811BF.3000905@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/780fd917/attachment.html 

From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb  3 05:39:31 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 03:39:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.
In-Reply-To: <498811BF.3000905@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <291912.35726.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Have now prayed and will continue to pray for Yoram ben Marcel.

--- On Tue, 2/3/09, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 4:43 AM


Shalom Chaverim,

I have just finished speaking to Nira, Elli's wife.
Her brother Yoram is suffering through the final stages of " RETINITIS PIGMENTOSA", a rare type of hereditary retinal dystrophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinitis_pigmentosa

He was diagnosed with this condition at the early age of six.
Recently at the age of 43 it has advanced to the critical stage of tunnel vision with the possibility of future total blindness.

I have not met him personally. However I have met his parents on a recent trip to Australia. 
I have been in contact with his brothers Benjo and Tal.
The whole family is G-d fearing and observant. Truely the nicest family one could meet, not to mention Nira and Elli who are like my sister and brother.

There is no known cure for this condition.

All your prayers for Yoram ben Marcel would be greatly appreciated at this crossroad as he undergoes tests and specialist care in Israel. 
May HaShem bring sight to the humble and needy.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/47c413f8/attachment.html 

From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Tue Feb  3 08:35:49 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:49 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] James, thank-you, Stephen
References: <4987FCBC.57DA4.6632@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <0BB7D36D45E240888E22136EBC068210@SEWVAC011>

Thanks for your comments Stephen. I am glad you benefited from my  
book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith.

Regarding your question on Genesis 15:4, the problem is in  
translation. Clearly in the text both Ishmael and Isaac come forth  
from Abraham's own body (lit. belly, i.e. testicles) and are his sons,  
bearing his Y chromosome as we would say today. The problem in the  
English is that the word "but" is wrongly emphasized: BUT one who will  
come from your own body shall be your heir...." as if to imply Ishmael  
was not that, which he clearly was. The statement in Hebrew is a  
contrast, but not between the one who is truly a son and the one who  
is not, but rather between the son who will not be his heir and one  
who will come forth [also] who will be. He is just being told that he  
is to have another son, and this one is not the one, even though he is  
firstborn. The whole thing has to do with the firstborn. We find this  
often actually, think of Jacob and Esau, with Esau as firstborn, then  
Reuben who is displaced and Joseph gets the birthright...

I hope this helps...

James
************************************************
James,

Thank-you.  Food for thought.

Stephen
 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 08:49:04 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:49:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma.
In-Reply-To: <200902030813.n138Dd4W019433@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
	<200902030813.n138Dd4W019433@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS145043CE40626E9D80FB25BAC20@phx.gbl>

Sorry to say that I had not read Joe's post before this morning.  It truly is INCREDIBLE!!!!  Thank you so much, Steve, for alerting us to this timely information which Joe had passed to us.  I find it most significant that Arabs have long expected the "sign" of O Ba Ma!!!!

Pat  


From: Steve Mathe 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:13 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma.


Incredible!  Surely we are in the times of "the footsteps of the Messiah."
Steve


At 12:02 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote:

  Shalom Chaverim,

  I found this very interesting and disturbing article on the President Designate, Barack Hussein Obama.

  I am not surprised seeing that the first international dignitary that Obama telephoned on his day of inauguration was none other than Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority ,who by the way ,his tenure was up on the 9th of January. Obama's first interview was to Al Arabiyah. No surprise here. He finally rang our Prime Minister Kevin Rudd late last week. This would have never occurred in the past between two great allies. 
  Obama's botched oath of allegiance was retaken the following day with one notable exception....... NO BIBLE !!!!!!!

  There are numerous Midrashim that concur that in the end of days there would be a marriage of convenience between Esau/Edom, the West and Yismael , the Arabs as occurred in the story of Bereishit chap 36. They in turn would scheme the eventual downfall of Yisrael. HaShem has other plans to their frustration and demise.



  Genesis Chapter 36



     , . 1 Now these are the generations of Esau--the same is Edom . 
     - , :  - , - , - - , - . 2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah the daughter of Anah, the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite, 
     - - , . 3 and Basemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth. 
     , - ; , - . 4 And Adah bore to Esau Eliphaz; and Basemath bore Reuel; 
     , , - ( ) - , - ; , - . 5 and Oholibamah bore Jeush, and Jalam, and Korah. These are the sons of Esau, that were born unto him in the land of Canaan. 
     - - - , - - , - - - - , ; - , . 6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the souls of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his possessions, which he had gathered in the land of Canaan; and went into a land away from his brother Jacob. 


  Tuesday, February 3 
  Obama: The Promised Warrior 

  Apparently President Barack Hussein Obama employed representatives and experts to hold secret high-level talks with Iran and Syria months prior to his election as president, organizers of the meetings told Agence France Presse on Monday.

  It would appear that the article originally published in Forbes magazine on 26 Oct last year, and then quickly removed, is true and therefore worth reprinting to refresh our memories:

  Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world? by Amir Taheri

  The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a Shiite text of the 17th century. The tradition comes from Bahar al-Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.
  According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just before the return of the Mahdi, the Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding "the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry "a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali. The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is with us."

  In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--Barack Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic and Persian. His family name, Obama, written in the Persian alphabet, reads O Ba Ma, which means "he is with us," the magic formula in Majlisi's tradition.

  Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees Obama's rise as another sign of the West's decline and the triumph of Islam. Obama's promise to seek unconditional talks with the Islamic Republic is cited as a sign that the U.S. is ready to admit defeat. Obama's position could mean abandoning three resolutions passed by the United Nations Security Council setting conditions that Iran should meet to avoid sanctions. Seeking unconditional talks with the Khomeinists also means an admission of moral equivalence between the U.S. and the Islamic Republic. It would imply an end to the description by the U.S. of the regime as a "systematic violator of human rights."

  Obama has abandoned claims by all U.S. administrations in the past 30 years that Iran is "a state sponsor of terrorism." Instead, he uses the term "violent groups" to describe Iran-financed outfits such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

  Obama has also promised to attend a summit of the Organization of the Islamic Conference within the first 100 days of his presidency. Such a move would please the mullahs, who have always demanded that Islam be treated differently, and that Muslim nations act as a bloc in dealings with Infidel nations.

  Obama's election would boost President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's chances of winning a second term next June. Ahmadinejad's entourage claim that his "steadfastness in resisting the American Great Satan" was a factor in helping Obama defeat "hardliners" such as Hillary Clinton and, later, it hopes, John McCain.

  "President Ahmadinejad has taught Americans a lesson," says Hassan Abbasi, a "strategic adviser" to the Iranian president. "This is why they are now choosing someone who understands Iran's power." The Iranian leader's entourage also point out that Obama copied his campaign slogan "Yes, We Can" from Ahmadinejad's "We Can," used four years ago.

  A number of Khomeinist officials have indicated their preference for Obama over McCain, who is regarded as an "enemy of Islam." A Foreign Ministry spokesman says Iran does not wish to dictate the choice of the Americans but finds Obama "a better choice for everyone." Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Islamic Majlis, Iran's ersatz parliament, has gone further by saying the Islamic Republic "prefers to see Barack Obama in the White House" next year.

  Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official media, increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph Biden as his vice-presidential running mate. Biden was an early supporter of the Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979 and, for the past 30 years, has been a consistent advocate of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a regional power. He has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the U.S. and has always voted against sanctions on Iran.

  Ahmadinejad has described the U.S. as a "sunset" (ofuli) power as opposed to Islam, which he says is a "sunrise" (toluee) power. Last summer, he inaugurated an international conference called World Without America--attended by anti-Americans from all over the world, including the U.S.

  Seen from Tehran, Obama's election would demoralize the U.S. armed forces by casting doubt on their victories in Iraq and Afghanistan, if not actually transforming them into defeat. American retreat from the Middle East under Obama would enable the Islamic Republic to pursue hegemony of the region. Tehran is especially interested in dominating Iraq, thus consolidating a new position that extends its power to the Mediterranean through Syria and Lebanon.
  During the World Without America conference, several speakers speculated that Obama would show "understanding of Muslim grievances" with regard to Palestine. Ahmadinejad hopes to persuade a future President Obama to adopt the "Iranian solution for Palestine," which aims at creating a single state in which Jews would quickly become a minority.

  Judging by anecdotal evidence and the buzz among Iranian bloggers, while the ruling Khomeinists favor Obama, the mass of Iranians regard (and dislike) the Democrat candidate as an appeaser of the mullahs. Iran, along with Israel, is the only country in the Middle East where the United States remains popular. An Obama presidency, perceived as friendly to the oppressive regime in Tehran, may change that.

  This article was reprinted from Forbes.com at the link shown below, however the original article has now been removed http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html 

  This portends to some serious developments in the future that will impact on us all.

  Baruch HaShem that HE alone is in full control of the affairs of men.
  The gathering of all nations into the Valley of Yehosaphat is one step closer.

  Blessed be the Holy One, for His mercy endures forever.

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.



  _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/73f6e6e3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 08:59:39 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:59:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.
In-Reply-To: <291912.35726.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <291912.35726.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS28E04B034E655F4F81FE9BAC20@phx.gbl>

Me too!  Am praying for Yoram ben Marcel.  May his eyes be as described in Isaiah 32:3, "And the eyes of them that see shall not be blind...."

Pat


From: Helen Lusk 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 6:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.


      Have now prayed and will continue to pray for Yoram ben Marcel.

      --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

        From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
        Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST: YORAM ben MARCEL.
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 4:43 AM


        Shalom Chaverim,

        I have just finished speaking to Nira, Elli's wife.
        Her brother Yoram is suffering through the final stages of " RETINITIS PIGMENTOSA", a rare type of hereditary retinal dystrophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinitis_pigmentosa

        He was diagnosed with this condition at the early age of six.
        Recently at the age of 43 it has advanced to the critical stage of tunnel vision with the possibility of future total blindness.

        I have not met him personally. However I have met his parents on a recent trip to Australia. 
        I have been in contact with his brothers Benjo and Tal.
        The whole family is G-d fearing and observant. Truely the nicest family one could meet, not to mention Nira and Elli who are like my sister and brother.

        There is no known cure for this condition.

        All your prayers for Yoram ben Marcel would be greatly appreciated at this crossroad as he undergoes tests and specialist care in Israel. 
        May HaShem bring sight to the humble and needy.

        Shalom v'Ahavah
        JOE.



_______________________________________________
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/31a61d4b/attachment.html 

From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb  3 09:04:47 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
Message-ID: <636251.9990.qm@web82505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- 






My e-mail was down this morning and I tried to send this from work but it bounced back. It should go through now. Hope you all enjoy his style of lecturing.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen
--- On Tue, 2/3/09, helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com> wrote:

From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com>
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:58 AM



?

-----Original Message-----
From: Lusk,Helen BDM BIP-US-R 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:52 AM
To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'; 'uilist at unitedisrael.org'
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon


?Dear All:

Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon?with Tovia Singer on? Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!? I just discovered him last?week.??Perhaps you already know about him.???http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199???
?
?Kind regards
Helen 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/98f0bc14/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 11:44:07 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:44:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A TRUE leader, not one of the three stooges
Message-ID: <855590370902030944g53bb87c8xc5d6bb4c5dc1c939@mail.gmail.com>

Ketzaleh's Commander Speaks: A Man of Action, A True Leader
by Chagit Rotenberg

 (IsraelNN.com) *Brig.-Gen. Amatzia "Patsi" Chen, former commander of Yaakov
"Ketzaleh" Katz in the legendary Shaked Commando Unit, says no one can
compare to Ketzaleh in bravery, proven accomplishments, integrity, and
sacrifice for the Land of Israel. Patsi remembers the words Ketzaleh said to
him when Ketzaleh was bleeding heavily from severe wounds. Patsi tells
Ketzaleh that he must strive to be Prime Minister.*

He calls Ketzaleh "my son," and though years have passed since that fateful
day during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, he gets emotional when telling the story
of the military operation that ended with the almost fatal injury to Yaakov
"Ketzaleh" Katz, now Chairman of the Ichud Leumi (National Union) party.
Brig.-Gen. Amatzia Chen, known as Patsi, was Ketzaleh's commander in the
legendary Shaked Commando Unit, and afterwards in the elite force of
Shaked's officers that Patsi formed in the middle of the war. During a
daring raid in which the small force, only 12 fighters strong, took on over
130 Egyptian commandos, an RPG scored a direct hit on one of the Shaked
troop carriers?the one Ketzaleh and his closest friends were in.
  Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz, Chairman of the Ichud Leumi (National Union) party
Photo: Sasson Tamir

Patsi will never forget what Ketzaleh said to him during those blood
drenched moments of fire and smoke. He recalls: "We had no medic and few
medical supplies, but we did our best to help the wounded, and especially
Ketzaleh, who was literally cut in two except for a part of his pelvis which
somehow held his body together. It was obvious that without a helicopter to
evacuate him, his chances of survival were nil, so I requested the command
post to send one. 'Negative', was the answer I received from the assistant
division commander, Yaakov Even, later promoted to General. 'The air force
refuses to send one because you are too close to the battlefront,' they
said. For me, this was a moment that was just too much to bear."

However, just minutes later the voice on the microphone changed to the voice
of the division commander, Ariel Sharon, who informed Patsi that a
helicopter would be landing within minutes to evacuate the wounded. "I went
over to Ketzaleh, who was on the verge of losing consciousness, and said:
'Ketzaleh, my son, in five minutes a helicopter will be here and with the
help of G-d, you will be saved.'" And how did he respond? Ketzaleh, without
any blood left in his body and with the last bit of strength he had, said to
me: "Patsi, if I have lived to hear you say the words 'with the help of
G-d,' that was the divine reason behind my being wounded.'"

When Patsi combines his memories of Ketzaleh's idealism and strength, with
the other character traits he sees in his old friend from the commando
force, it is clear to him where Ketzaleh really belongs: "These abilities
are enough to make him a fitting Prime Minister. Add to that his superior
intelligence, pleasant personality and willingness to sacrifice himself,
especially in comparison with the worthless people who created the problems
we face and then have the audacity to claim they can solve them," alluding
to the political leaders we have today.

*Brig.-Gen. Amatzia "Patzi" Chen*

Patsi continues: "The rostrum of top political figures today is personally
responsible for the problems they are asking the voters to let them solve.
It's just incredible. They were the cause of the situation we face and won't
admit their failure. Those who cannot own up to their mistakes cannot
possibly avoid repeating them in the future. The way things stand, even a
mediocre person would be an improvement on the three leading politicians of
today, let alone Ketzaleh, whom I recognized as a true leader from way back
during his army service."

"Ketzaleh is one of those people who doesn't just talk, he really does
things - the settlement of Samaria and the blossoming garden that was
uprooted in Gaza are his accomplishments. That's what one should be able to
expect from a leader. We are talking here about a man of action, and not
just any action, but those accomplishments that are critical to ensure our
continued presence in the Land of Israel."

When Patsi, who is now retired from the IDF and lives in Carmei Yosef
located between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, heard that his old friend is the
head of a party running for Knesset, he knew who he was going to support in
the upcoming elections. That, however, was not enough for him. Without
hesitation, Patsi called Ketzaleh and said: "You should aim already now to
be Prime Minister." No less.

*Video: Who is Ketzaleh?*

"If we go by Ketzaleh's track record, we are talking about a Zionistic,
honest leader, whose entire adult life has been devoted to strengthening the
State of Israel as opposed to the more common type of politician here - that
is, those whose own interests are their real concern. I am talking about a
man whose ability overshadows all the existing contenders for leadership
positions," he adds to explain his support.

Patsi feels that his fellow commando officer has the necessary charisma to
lead a ruling party: "People are drawn to Ketzaleh's charisma. That's what
happened in Judea and Samaria where people followed him because only a man
of faith like him, who believes in the ideals he espouses and has the self
confidence to act upon them, can be a real leader, in contrast to the other
members of the political echelons around us. They may even be good people,
but because they have no backbone, they join the system and soon drown in
the general political morass. This kind of thing won't affect Ketzaleh at
all, because he is a man of faith, diligence and real integrity, and that is
why I want him part of the next government."

As a longtime observer of events, Patsi has a great deal to say about the
behavior of Israel's politicians. He points out what he considers a serious
flaw: "The biggest problem facing Israel is the lack of personal
accountability. After every disaster, a statutory committee of inquiry is
created, but its conclusions are irrelevant except for ascribing personal
responsibility to one person. No one realizes that blaming someone for a
specific incident leaves a vacuum in personal responsibility that is not
filled until another disaster follows the first."

The above failure in leadership is one that Patsi feels the Ichud Leumi
(National Union) party will be able to change. "I know Ketzaleh and Uri
[Ariel] really well, and I am convinced that because personal political gain
does not interest them in the slightest, they can bring about a change that
will result in everyone's accepting responsibility at each level. This will
be a real revolution in the quality of government that our elected officials
deliver. Instead of our serving them, they will start serving the public."

Patsi is furious at the pursuit of honor and personal gain that
characterizes Israel's top leadership today. "The most blatant examples of
people whose own interests dominate their actions are Olmert, Barak, Livni
and their friends. Someone who can change this and triple - at the very
least - the present effectiveness of Israel's policies is a true leader who
sees the good of the state as his primary goal, before his own personal
benefit. Uri Ariel, Arye Eldad and Ketzaleh [the three top candidates on the
Ichud HaLeumi list] are dedicated to ideas, not to themselves."

The degeneration of integrity of Israel's politicians, according to Patsi,
is what really led to the Oslo Agreement catastrophe that befell the
citizens of Israel. "The national steadfastness that was attained by the
early 80's gave the political leaders, whose personal gain came first, an
overdose of confidence to the point that they felt they could place vital
national interests on the diplomatic negotiating table in pursuit of their
own political theories. They caused a terrible split with those who love
this country. In the end they also brought about the Oslo Agreement, the
Hamas, Hizballah and PLO?these are all their creations for which they should
hide their heads in shame."

In closing, Patsi points to an advantage that Ketzaleh's party has over the
others: "There is an albatross around the neck of every other political
leader in Israel, and that is their track record in the political and
foreign affairs developments of recent years. Bibi [Netanyahu], for example,
handed over Hevron to the Arabs and opened the Western Wall tunnels without
checking that the army was prepared for the consequences. These things are
ingrained in his record. [The Labor party's] Ehud Barak initiated the
fleeing from Lebanon that brought the Second Intifada upon us and all the
ensuing troubles. [The Kadima party's] Tzipi Livni is directly responsible
for the public relations failure of the last war, and there is no way to
forgive or atone for that."

In the Ichud Leumi party, the candidates have a clean slate. Ketzaleh, aside
from his personal traits, is free of these blemishes and brings with him a
great love of the Land of Israel and responsibility to it and its citizens.
What more does a citizen like me need?"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/7eec8759/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 11:48:09 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:48:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...
In-Reply-To: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
References: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1F644C5E-4FBE-4092-944B-1449308254CA@earthlink.net>

Dear Joe and all,

No matter what one thinks of our current President I would caution  
everyone to be very careful of spreading these kinds of stories and  
believing anything that is circulated on the internet. I have learned  
myself, through bitter experience, how absolutely deadly a medium this  
can be, as outright lies and rumors were widely circulated about me in  
2006 after I came out in support of the Talpiot tomb being "possibly"  
that of Jesus of Nazareth. I could not believe the things that were  
said, all false.

If you search a bit on the internet you will find that the passage  
supposedly quoted in this article by Amir Taheri does not exist. This  
is confirmed to me by our faculty here who are trained in Islamic  
studies. Further, Mr. Taheri has been largely discredited, now even by  
one of his main supporters.

See http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/forbes-pulls-article-on-obama-as-warrior-for-hidden-imam/ 
  for some of the beginning references.

Love him, hate him, but no matter what, deal only according to the  
strictest high standards of truth and verification as taught by our  
Torah. Receiving something via an e-mail or reading it on a Web site  
or Blog does not make it true.

James Tabor


On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

>
>
> Tuesday, February 3
> Obama: The Promised Warrior
> Apparently President Barack Hussein Obama employed representatives  
> and experts to hold secret high-level talks with Iran and Syria  
> months prior to his election as president, organizers of the  
> meetings told Agence France Presse on Monday.
>
> It would appear that the article originally published in Forbes  
> magazine on 26 Oct last year, and then quickly removed, is true and  
> therefore worth reprinting to refresh our memories:
>
> Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden  
> Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world? by Amir Taheri
>
> The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a  
> pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a  
> Shiite text of the 17th century. The tradition comes from Bahar al- 
> Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in  
> 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.
> According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's  
> cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just  
> before the return of the Mahdi, the Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black  
> man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding  
> "the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry  
> "a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.  
> The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is  
> with us."
>
> In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--Barack  
> Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic and Persian. His  
> family name, Obama, written in the Persian alphabet, reads O Ba Ma,  
> which means "he is with us," the magic formula in Majlisi's tradition.
>
> Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees Obama's  
> rise as another sign of the West's decline and the triumph of Islam.  
> Obama's promise to seek unconditional talks with the Islamic  
> Republic is cited as a sign that the U.S. is ready to admit defeat.  
> Obama's position could mean abandoning three resolutions passed by  
> the United Nations Security Council setting conditions that Iran  
> should meet to avoid sanctions. Seeking unconditional talks with the  
> Khomeinists also means an admission of moral equivalence between the  
> U.S. and the Islamic Republic. It would imply an end to the  
> description by the U.S. of the regime as a "systematic violator of  
> human rights."
>
> Obama has abandoned claims by all U.S. administrations in the past  
> 30 years that Iran is "a state sponsor of terrorism." Instead, he  
> uses the term "violent groups" to describe Iran-financed outfits  
> such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
>
> Obama has also promised to attend a summit of the Organization of  
> the Islamic Conference within the first 100 days of his presidency.  
> Such a move would please the mullahs, who have always demanded that  
> Islam be treated differently, and that Muslim nations act as a bloc  
> in dealings with Infidel nations.
>
> Obama's election would boost President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's chances  
> of winning a second term next June. Ahmadinejad's entourage claim  
> that his "steadfastness in resisting the American Great Satan" was a  
> factor in helping Obama defeat "hardliners" such as Hillary Clinton  
> and, later, it hopes, John McCain.
>
> "President Ahmadinejad has taught Americans a lesson," says Hassan  
> Abbasi, a "strategic adviser" to the Iranian president. "This is why  
> they are now choosing someone who understands Iran's power." The  
> Iranian leader's entourage also point out that Obama copied his  
> campaign slogan "Yes, We Can" from Ahmadinejad's "We Can," used four  
> years ago.
>
> A number of Khomeinist officials have indicated their preference for  
> Obama over McCain, who is regarded as an "enemy of Islam." A Foreign  
> Ministry spokesman says Iran does not wish to dictate the choice of  
> the Americans but finds Obama "a better choice for everyone." Ali  
> Larijani, Speaker of the Islamic Majlis, Iran's ersatz parliament,  
> has gone further by saying the Islamic Republic "prefers to see  
> Barack Obama in the White House" next year.
>
> Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official media,  
> increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph Biden as his vice- 
> presidential running mate. Biden was an early supporter of the  
> Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979 and, for the past 30 years, has  
> been a consistent advocate of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a  
> regional power. He has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the  
> U.S. and has always voted against sanctions on Iran.
>
> Ahmadinejad has described the U.S. as a "sunset" (ofuli) power as  
> opposed to Islam, which he says is a "sunrise" (toluee) power. Last  
> summer, he inaugurated an international conference called World  
> Without America--attended by anti-Americans from all over the world,  
> including the U.S.
>
> Seen from Tehran, Obama's election would demoralize the U.S. armed  
> forces by casting doubt on their victories in Iraq and Afghanistan,  
> if not actually transforming them into defeat. American retreat from  
> the Middle East under Obama would enable the Islamic Republic to  
> pursue hegemony of the region. Tehran is especially interested in  
> dominating Iraq, thus consolidating a new position that extends its  
> power to the Mediterranean through Syria and Lebanon.
> During the World Without America conference, several speakers  
> speculated that Obama would show "understanding of Muslim  
> grievances" with regard to Palestine. Ahmadinejad hopes to persuade  
> a future President Obama to adopt the "Iranian solution for  
> Palestine," which aims at creating a single state in which Jews  
> would quickly become a minority.
>
> Judging by anecdotal evidence and the buzz among Iranian bloggers,  
> while the ruling Khomeinists favor Obama, the mass of Iranians  
> regard (and dislike) the Democrat candidate as an appeaser of the  
> mullahs. Iran, along with Israel, is the only country in the Middle  
> East where the United States remains popular. An Obama presidency,  
> perceived as friendly to the oppressive regime in Tehran, may change  
> that.
>
> This article was reprinted from Forbes.com at the link shown below,  
> however the original article has now been removed http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html
>
> This portends to some serious developments in the future that will  
> impact on us all.
>
> Baruch HaShem that HE alone is in full control of the affairs of men.
> The gathering of all nations into the Valley of Yehosaphat is one  
> step closer.
>
> Blessed be the Holy One, for His mercy endures forever.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/a4740a0f/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 11:58:24 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:58:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Muslims?
Message-ID: <552820.32726.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>





Who are the 'extraordinary' Muslims?
By Spengler 

"My job is to communicate to the American people that the Muslim world is
filled with extraordinary people who simply want to live their lives and see
their children live better lives," United States President Barack Obama
told an Arabic television channel on January 26. Really? What are their names?
Word has come to the West of no extraordinary Muslim thinker since the 12th
century. There is one first-rank Arab writer working today who tries to explain
why there are no extraordinary Muslims - but on that more below. 

By "extraordinary", to be sure, Obama means no more than Garrison
Keillor meant in saying that the children of Lake Wobegon all are above average.
There is no "there" in Obama's "patchwork", as he
characterized America in his inaugural

   

address. America is all patches and no quilt, arranged in no particular order,
as in his remark in the same interview that America is "a country of
Muslims, Jews, Christians, non-believers". Everyone is ordinary, or maybe
extraordinary - whatever. If Obama had said that "the Muslim world is
filled with ordinary people, etc", his meaning would have been clearer. 

It's worth holding Obama to his words, though. In the real world, the
ordinary depends on the extraordinary, for it is the extraordinary citizens of a
nation who set a mark for the aspirations of ordinary people. Cultures that
can't produce extraordinary individuals can't survive. That bears on the
other half of the president's assertion. It is true that most Muslims simply
want a better life, and the two or three million American Muslims mostly are
well-educated economic immigrants who value prosperity over tradition. 

But it also is true that among the 1.4 billion Muslims in the world there are
tens of millions who would rather kill and die than endure what they perceive as
an intolerable humiliation. The majority of Muslims will be content to eat
crumbs from the table of the West and conform to the misery of their
circumstances. It is the substantial minority that will not be content that
should worry Obama. 

The failsafe definition of an "extraordinary person" is what an
ambitious mother will tell her feckless children, "Work hard and you might
grow up to be like him (or her)." Successful cultures produce people whose
contributions resonate through the world - scientists, poets, musicians,
entrepreneurs, or philosophers. Just one great individual can transform a
nation, by setting an example for ambitious youth. Thanks to the composer Jan
Sibelius, Finland with just 5 million people became a force in the world of
classical music. But woe unto cultures whence comes no contribution to the rest
of humanity. Where are the Muslim scientists, novelists, entrepreneurs, athletes
and musicians? 

Apart from political leaders, a reasonably diligent reader of a quality
newspaper in the West will not be able to name a single Muslim distinguished in
any field of human endeavor. Excluding the politically awarded Peace Prize,
Muslims have won only three Nobel prizes since their inception more than a
century ago, or one for every 450 million Muslims alive today. By contrast,
there have been 169 Jewish Nobel Laureates (excluding the Peace Prize), or about
one for every 89,000 Jews alive today. During the past century, a Jew was 5,000
times more likely to win the Nobel than a Muslim. 

The last native of a Muslim country to receive the Nobel was the Turkish
novelist Orhan Pamuk, a secular critic of his native country now living in New
York City in virtual exile, unable to return to Istanbul in safety. I favorably
reviewed his last novel Snow in 
Only one Muslim writer is mentioned as a frontrunner for the literature prize
today: Syrian poet Adonis (the pen-name of Ali Ahmad Sa'id), whom I profiled
in Are the Arabs already extinct? on May 8, 2007. 

Adonis is a man whom the world should know better. Almost single-handed, he
created a modernist poetic style in Arabic that vividly conveys the terror of
the Muslim encounter with the modern world. 

Adonis calls his work an obituary for the Arabs. " 

Islam itself destroys the creativity of Muslims, Adonis argues, "Because
Islam - the last message sent by God to mankind - has placed the final seal on
the Divine Word, successive words are incapable of bringing humankind anything
new. A new message would imply that the Islamic message did not say everything,
that it is imperfect." The most melancholy Slav sounds like Jerry Seinfeld
next to this poet of despair. 

The blame for Islamic backwardness, Adonis claims, lies in the concept of
"oneness," or tawhid, of Allah. "Oneness" conveys not just
monotheism, but exclusionary comprehensiveness; it refers more to totality than
to unity. As the leading European Islamist Tariq Ramadan explains tawhid, for a
right-thinking Muslim, it is literally inconceivable to raise doubts about God.
A Muslim, Ramadan explains, might forget, but he cannot doubt. 

The trouble with a religion that permits no doubt - unlike Christianity, of
which Pope Benedict XVI said that "doubt is the handmaiden of faith" -
is that it becomes an all-or-nothing proposition. Either Islam regulates the
totality of life and thought, such that questioning may intrude within its magic
circle, or it becomes nothing. Islam is inseparable from the traditional life of
subject peoples; it cannot find roots in the thin soil of modernity. 

Measuring modernity is difficult, especially because its onset in the Muslim
world is sudden, but there is one unerring gauge of social transformation that
shows how quickly Muslim societies are changing. That is population. 

Thrust into the modern world, Muslims are overtaking the West only in one
dimension: they are aging, and aging faster than any other part of the world.
Iran is the fastest-aging country on the globe. The developed world today has a
median age of almost 40, the sad result of two generations of demographic
decline, while the largest Muslim countries have a median age of 25. But by the
middle of the century, according to United Nations projections, the average age
of the largest Muslim countries will be 47, converging on the aging industrial
world. 

Only with extreme difficulty will the developed countries manage the burden of
a rapidly aging population. It is hard to envisage how the much-poorer Muslim
world will manage it at all. The potential for civil as well as regional
instability will continue to rise. Increasingly, the Muslims find themselves
with the worst of both worlds, that is, with the same dependency profile as the
populations of the West, but without the wealth or the capacity to generate
wealth that gives the West some wiggle room. 

Japan may have a declining population, but it is a wealthy land with enormous
inventiveness and the capacity to substitute capital for labor. Excepting
Turkey, no Muslim country has a single industrial company that can compete on
world markets. The Muslim world thus far has failed to produce the sort of
extraordinary men and women who can innovate and adapt. 

Shrinking resources and growing need are a formula for social and regional
instability. Iran's insistence on acquiring nuclear weapons stems from more
than a paranoid antipathy to the state of Israel. Iran looks wistfully towards
the far shore of the Persian Gulf where Saudi Shi'ites dominate the
monarchy's main oil-producing regions. Fifty million aging Persians, for
that matter, might be more concerned about 175 million young Pakistanis to their
east than about Israel. 

Most Muslims want to better their lives, as Obama said, but their lives are
getting worse rather than better, and nothing they know can make things better.
In theory, there might be a future state of the world in which the Islamic world
could live in peace and prosperity, but today's Muslims cannot get there
from here. 

In dozens of essays during the past five years, I excoriated former president
George W Bush for imaging that he could fix the problems of the Muslim world by
promoting American-style democracy. If Obama spends more time reassuring, and
less time trying to fix the Muslim world, he will do better, by default.
America's policy towards the incurables should be to live and let die. 

(Copyright 2009 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic
formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/93582ed8/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 13:41:53 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:41:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma.
In-Reply-To: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
References: <4987FA18.2080901@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <0CE134AF-7CD6-4532-922C-C19CFC9C4EBD@earthlink.net>

Please read, and this is from a former supporter of the author, Taheri.

James



http://www.mahdiwatch.org/2008.11.01_arch.html#1226355613227

>
>
> Tuesday, February 3
> Obama: The Promised Warrior
> Apparently President Barack Hussein Obama employed representatives  
> and experts to hold secret high-level talks with Iran and Syria  
> months prior to his election as president, organizers of the  
> meetings told Agence France Presse on Monday.
>
> It would appear that the article originally published in Forbes  
> magazine on 26 Oct last year, and then quickly removed, is true and  
> therefore worth reprinting to refresh our memories:
>
> Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden  
> Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world? by Amir Taheri
>
> The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a  
> pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a  
> Shiite text of the 17th century. The tradition comes from Bahar al- 
> Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in  
> 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.
> According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's  
> cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just  
> before the return of the Mahdi, the Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black  
> man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding  
> "the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry  
> "a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.  
> The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is  
> with us."
>
> In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--Barack  
> Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic and Persian. His  
> family name, Obama, written in the Persian alphabet, reads O Ba Ma,  
> which means "he is with us," the magic formula in Majlisi's tradition.
>
> Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees Obama's  
> rise as another sign of the West's decline and the triumph of Islam.  
> Obama's promise to seek unconditional talks with the Islamic  
> Republic is cited as a sign that the U.S. is ready to admit defeat.  
> Obama's position could mean abandoning three resolutions passed by  
> the United Nations Security Council setting conditions that Iran  
> should meet to avoid sanctions. Seeking unconditional talks with the  
> Khomeinists also means an admission of moral equivalence between the  
> U.S. and the Islamic Republic. It would imply an end to the  
> description by the U.S. of the regime as a "systematic violator of  
> human rights."
>
> Obama has abandoned claims by all U.S. administrations in the past  
> 30 years that Iran is "a state sponsor of terrorism." Instead, he  
> uses the term "violent groups" to describe Iran-financed outfits  
> such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
>
> Obama has also promised to attend a summit of the Organization of  
> the Islamic Conference within the first 100 days of his presidency.  
> Such a move would please the mullahs, who have always demanded that  
> Islam be treated differently, and that Muslim nations act as a bloc  
> in dealings with Infidel nations.
>
> Obama's election would boost President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's chances  
> of winning a second term next June. Ahmadinejad's entourage claim  
> that his "steadfastness in resisting the American Great Satan" was a  
> factor in helping Obama defeat "hardliners" such as Hillary Clinton  
> and, later, it hopes, John McCain.
>
> "President Ahmadinejad has taught Americans a lesson," says Hassan  
> Abbasi, a "strategic adviser" to the Iranian president. "This is why  
> they are now choosing someone who understands Iran's power." The  
> Iranian leader's entourage also point out that Obama copied his  
> campaign slogan "Yes, We Can" from Ahmadinejad's "We Can," used four  
> years ago.
>
> A number of Khomeinist officials have indicated their preference for  
> Obama over McCain, who is regarded as an "enemy of Islam." A Foreign  
> Ministry spokesman says Iran does not wish to dictate the choice of  
> the Americans but finds Obama "a better choice for everyone." Ali  
> Larijani, Speaker of the Islamic Majlis, Iran's ersatz parliament,  
> has gone further by saying the Islamic Republic "prefers to see  
> Barack Obama in the White House" next year.
>
> Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official media,  
> increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph Biden as his vice- 
> presidential running mate. Biden was an early supporter of the  
> Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979 and, for the past 30 years, has  
> been a consistent advocate of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a  
> regional power. He has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the  
> U.S. and has always voted against sanctions on Iran.
>
> Ahmadinejad has described the U.S. as a "sunset" (ofuli) power as  
> opposed to Islam, which he says is a "sunrise" (toluee) power. Last  
> summer, he inaugurated an international conference called World  
> Without America--attended by anti-Americans from all over the world,  
> including the U.S.
>
> Seen from Tehran, Obama's election would demoralize the U.S. armed  
> forces by casting doubt on their victories in Iraq and Afghanistan,  
> if not actually transforming them into defeat. American retreat from  
> the Middle East under Obama would enable the Islamic Republic to  
> pursue hegemony of the region. Tehran is especially interested in  
> dominating Iraq, thus consolidating a new position that extends its  
> power to the Mediterranean through Syria and Lebanon.
> During the World Without America conference, several speakers  
> speculated that Obama would show "understanding of Muslim  
> grievances" with regard to Palestine. Ahmadinejad hopes to persuade  
> a future President Obama to adopt the "Iranian solution for  
> Palestine," which aims at creating a single state in which Jews  
> would quickly become a minority.
>
> Judging by anecdotal evidence and the buzz among Iranian bloggers,  
> while the ruling Khomeinists favor Obama, the mass of Iranians  
> regard (and dislike) the Democrat candidate as an appeaser of the  
> mullahs. Iran, along with Israel, is the only country in the Middle  
> East where the United States remains popular. An Obama presidency,  
> perceived as friendly to the oppressive regime in Tehran, may change  
> that.
>
> This article was reprinted from Forbes.com at the link shown below,  
> however the original article has now been removed http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html
>
> This portends to some serious developments in the future that will  
> impact on us all.
>
> Baruch HaShem that HE alone is in full control of the affairs of men.
> The gathering of all nations into the Valley of Yehosaphat is one  
> step closer.
>
> Blessed be the Holy One, for His mercy endures forever.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/a208423e/attachment.html 

From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Tue Feb  3 17:28:52 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:28:52 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The distinctiveness of Israel
References: <4987FCBC.57DA4.6632@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <88CEAF4B1BC84BAD94E603D61408F734@SEWVAC011>

A friend of mine in Israel email's these to me... 
the concept of the distinctiveness of Israel... I 
think explains why there our gentiles, who are
drawn to bless individuals in Israel....
Stephen


Parashat "Bo"
"Go"
Exodus 10:1-13:16


Haftara [Reading from the Prophets]: Jeremiah 46:13-28

This parasha is special in that it opens with commandments that are particular to Israel. Some [Jewish] Sages say that this parasha would be an appropriate one with which to begin the Torah because it says "This month shall be to youS" [Ex. 12:2], which is the first commandment that God gave the Children of Israel as a people. To individuals of Israel, He had already given commandments in the book of Genesis, such as circumcision, the prohibition on eating the sinew of an animal, etc.

We would expect that the haftara would be something special, festive, perhaps a reference to the miracles and deliverance that God performed for the Israelites, in the spirit of the parasha. But contrary to expectations, the haftara is taken from the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning Egypt: judgment and punishments upon Egypt, desolations and exile. But if we look closely, we can see a similarity between the parasha and the haftara. There are two parts to the parasha. First, is Israel in the context of the greater world, a nation among nations. The message here is directed in large measure against Egypt. The second part deals with commandments, requirements and instructions for Israel. We'll see the same division in the haftara.

Verses 13-26 are a message to Egypt and to the world at large, and in the last 2 verses that cap it off, there is a unique message to Israel in which we hear that the destiny of Israel is completely different than that of all the other nations. It is a destiny that is separate from what is to become of all the other nations. We need to keep this in mind, so that we don't become worried by what is happening in the world today. Jeremiah says: "Do not fear, O Jacob My servant," says the LORD, "For I am with you; For I will make a complete end of all the nations to which I have driven you, but I will not make a complete end of you." (vv. 27-28)

This unique message expresses itself already in the plagues on Egypt. The plagues came upon Egypt because of the Israelites. Contrasted with the darkness that covered all of Egypt, the Children of Israel had light in their dwellings. (Ex. 10:23b) Contrasted with the great outcry in Egypt over the death of their first born, "against none of the children of Israel shall a dog move its tongue, against man or beast" All of this was so "that you may know that the LORD does make a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." (Ex. 11:7) Egypt is a picture of the whole world. Actually the word for 'Egypt' in Hebrew, Mitzrayim, comes from the root "meitzar" or strait (a narrow way). So Israel passes through narrow straits throughout its history and despite it all, God preserves His people completely separately, even if He brings them through destruction and exile. Israel survives and moves on, as if the events of the rest of the world are completely disconnected from her. This isn't because Israel is obedient and nice, but because of the covenant that God made with the Patriarchs.

The main idea of the haftara, Jeremiah's prophecy, is directed to Egypt, while the parasha deals with Israel, to the point that everything that happens to the Egyptians happens to them because of Israel. In addition to this, in our parasha, we see that the plagues are brought upon Egypt by God in a most clear and visible manner. The calamity that is described in the haftara, however, is brought upon them by flesh and blood people - "people from the north" (Jer. 46:24), despite the fact that the prophet says in v. 15 that it was the LORD who drove them away.

It could be that this is a manifestation of process that was taking place in the world. In ancient times, when the Name of God was not yet known amongst the gentile nations and Pharaoh was proclaiming "I do not know the LORD" (Ex. 5:2), the falling of the plagues directly on Egypt was the only way to waken Pharaoh to the recognition of God's outstretched arm and His guiding Providence in the world. But from the moment His name was known to the gentiles by things visible and natural as well as via the acts of people, one can point to God's involvement in them (Jer. 46:25-26).

This prophecy of Jeremiah is among the first prophecies that were given concerning the gentiles. He begins with Egypt and ends with Babylon. Jeremiah is unique in that already at the outset of his ministry, God determined that he would be a prophet to the gentiles. Perhaps this is the reason that the Sages chose this particular haftara to go along with this parasha. The haftara describes a turning point in the history of the world. Up till this point, the history of Israel was intertwined with the history of the rest of the world at large - a people among other people. From here on, Jewish history was to move along a separate, distinct path, disconnected from the history of the world. The plagues came upon Egypt and the Children of Israel were spared. God differentiated between the two. Jeremiah said: "But as for you, O Jacob My servant, do not fear, nor be dismayed, O Israel! For, see, I am going to save you from afar, and your descendants from the land of their captivity; and Jacob will return and be undisturbed and secure, with no one making him tremble." (Jer. 46:27) This should encourage us even today. Our leaders want our path to be the same as the rest of the world. But what we are in fact is a drop of oil floating on the water. We don't mix in, for better or for worse. And it's all because of Him and for His glory. Balaam knew this when he said: "A people dwelling alone, not reckoning itself among the nations." (Num. 23:9b)

The haftara teaches that despite everything that is to come and despite the fact that Israel is separate from the other nations, even in the coming judgment (and Yeshua talks about this - Matt. 25:40), this is a prophecy for the gentiles coming from the mouth of a prophet to the gentiles, demonstrating that the God of the Universe continues to deliver His messages to them.

It is interesting that precisely when Israel is at her lowest point, going on a downturn, on the eve of destruction and exile, a prophet of Israel is sent especially to the gentiles. The prophet of the destructionSa prophet to the gentiles. Precisely before Israel gets scattered among the nations, God sends Jeremiah to make His name known to the ends of the earth so that all will know of Him. On the eve of the exodus from Egypt, the Egyptians also hear of, and see, the outstretched arm of God because He is the God of the Universe. Again, the purpose of the plagues was to make known the fact that the LORD is God. In the haftara, Jeremiah is also sent to Egypt with the message that God is the LORD of all the earth and that Jacob (Israel) is His people. All other nations will disappear from the map of history, but this people is forever. In both the parasha and the haftara, we see that God promises to preserve the distinctiveness of Israel. "Do not fear, O Jacob My servant, for I am with you." (Jer. 46:28)
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/6c2d03f7/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 17:32:04 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:32:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]
Message-ID: <4988D3F4.4040704@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/1ca05bbf/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:48:09 -0500
Size: 22114
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/1ca05bbf/attachment.eml 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 18:15:20 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:15:20 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]
In-Reply-To: <4988D3F4.4040704@westnet.com.au>
References: <4988D3F4.4040704@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <8D67CA6D-0D20-4BE8-BF48-A1E135869D09@earthlink.net>

Joe,

I am not questioning your sincerity or your dedication to HaShem. My  
caution was just that we not circulate things that are untrue. I can  
tell you, absolutely, that quote is bogus. You can actually tell by  
the sound of it, but if you check with any expert you will find what I  
say is so. This is covered on many Web sites.

Best,

James


On Feb 3, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

> Shalom James,
>
> the original article in Forbes was replaced by this one. Who knows  
> why? The message is still clear, eschatology aside. http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/28/obama-iran-tehran-oped-cx_at_0928taheri.html
>
> In your link Richard Bartholomew states :
> "Alas, Taheri does not give us any reference for the quote, either  
> to the Iranian website or to the relevant passage from the original  
> text, which is better-known as the Bahir al-Anwar. I?ve looked all  
> over the net for a clue, but there is nothing (at least in English)  
> on-line, including available via Google Books. Apparently only one  
> volume of the text has been translated into English (vol. 51), and  
> although it deals in eschatological issues around the Mahdi there is  
> no passage that fits the above. The volume can be seen here."
>
> Does this mean that the other 131 volumes do not ? I do not know. I  
> do not subscribe to being an expert on Islamic eschatology.
> Both articles mentioned above were written in September/October 2008  
> well before the elections in America.
>
> Putting all this aside, the facts after the inauguration are now  
> becoming quite clear.
>
> Obama administration officials did meet with Syria and Iran before  
> the election :
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129728
>
> Obama's  first dialogue with a foreign dignitary after his election  
> was with Mahmoud Abbas, whose tenure was up on the 9th of January  
> 2009.
>
> Obama's first interview as President was with Al Arabiya.
>
> Hillary Clinton's maiden speech as Secretary of State made it quite  
> clear that there would be no dialogue with Chamas , being a  
> terrorist organization. The Administration has emphasized the right  
> of Israel to exist with defensible and protected borders. Which  
> borders and who will do the defending ?
> HOWEVER, she proclaimed with a loud voice that the Adminstration  
> would seek dialogue with Iran.
> That is akin to saying that we will not talk with the snake (Chamas  
> and Hizbollah), but we will charm the head with the venomous fangs,  
> Iran.
>
> With people from the former Clinton Administration like Special  
> Envoy, George Mitchell and Samatha Power, I have my reservations  
> where all this is heading. The settlements of Shomron will be the  
> next casualty in this mad and dangerous game of "land for peace." It  
> did not work for Oslo, Camp David, Wye River and most recently for  
> Annapolis.
>
> This has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike Obama .  
> Leaving all politics aside, let us as you say :
>
> Love him, hate him, but no matter what, deal only according to the  
> strictest high standards of truth and verification as taught by our  
> Torah. Receiving something via an e-mail or reading it on a Web site  
> or Blog does not make it true.
>
> My allegiance is to HaShem, His Holy Word, His Chosen People, His  
> Holy Covenant and His Holy Land.
> Joel Chapter 4
>
> ?  ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????-- 
> ??????? ??????:  ?????? ???? (???????)  
> ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????.	1  
> For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring  
> back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,( Today)
> ?  ?????????????, ???-????-?????????,  
> ??????????????, ???-?????  
> ???????????; ???????????????? ??????  
> ????, ???-?????? ???????????  
> ?????????? ?????? ?????????  
> ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????.	2 I  
> will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of  
> Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My  
> people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among  
> the nations, and divided My land.
> ?  ?????-??????, ?????? ??????;  
> ??????????? ???????? ??????????,  
> ????????????? ??????? ????????  
> ????????????.	3 And they have cast lots for My people (UN  
> Resolutions); and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl  
> for wine, and have drunk.( the innocent peoples of the Holy Land for  
> the profanity of oil and materialism)
> ?  ????? ???-?????? ???, ??? ?????????,  
> ?????, ?????????? ?????????;  
> ?????????, ?????? ???????????? ?????,  
> ?????-????????? ?????? ?????, ???  
> ??????? ??????? ??????????  
> ????????????.	4 And also what are ye to Me, O Tyre, and  
> Zidon,(Lebanon- Hizbollah) and all the regions of Philistia?(Gaza-  
> Chamas) will ye render retribution on My behalf? and if ye render  
> retribution on My behalf, swiftly, speedily will I return your  
> retribution upon your own head.
> ?  ??????-????????? ?????????,  
> ??????????; ????????????, ?????????,  
> ????????, ?????????????.	5 Forasmuch as ye have  
> taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into your temples My  
> goodly treasures;
> ?  ??????? ???????? ???????  
> ????????????, ?????????? ???????  
> ???????????, ??????? ??????????,  
> ????? ?????????.	6 the children also of Judah and the  
> children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the sons of Jevanim,( the  
> West) that ye might remove them far from their border; (Gush Katif,  
> with more to come)
> ?  ??????? ????????--???-?????????,  
> ??????-?????????? ????? ???????;  
> ???????????? ?????????,  
> ????????????.	7 behold, I will stir them up out of the  
> place whither ye have sold them, and will return your retribution  
> upon your own head;
> ?  ???????????? ???-????????? ?????- 
> ????????????, ?????? ?????? ????????,  
> ?????????? ???????????, ???-?????  
> ??????:  ???? ??????, ???????.  {?}	8 and I  
> will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children  
> of Judah, and they shall sell them to the men of Sheba, to a nation  
> far off; for the LORD hath spoken. {P}
> ?  ???????-????, ??????????,  
> ?????????, ?????????; ????????,  
> ?????????????--????????? ???????,  
> ???? ???????? ????????????.	9 Proclaim ye  
> this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all  
> the men of war draw near, let them come up.
> ?  ??????? ????????? ??????????,  
> ???????????????? ??????????;  
> ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????.	10 Beat  
> your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let  
> the weak say: 'I am strong.'
> ??  ??????? ??????? ???-?????????  
> ?????????, ????????????; ???????,  
> ??????? ?????? ????????????.	11 Haste ye,  
> and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves  
> together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD!
> ??  ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???- 
> ????? ???????????:  ???? ????, ??????  
> ????????? ???-????-?????????-- 
> ?????????.	12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to  
> the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the  
> nations round about.
> ??  ???????? ??????, ???? ??????  
> ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-???????  
> ????--????????? ??????????, ????  
> ?????? ???????.	13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest  
> is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats  
> overflow; for their wickedness is great.
> ??  ????????? ?????????, ????????  
> ????????:  ???? ?????? ???? ??????,  
> ???????? ????????.	14 Multitudes, multitudes in the  
> valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of  
> decision.
> ??  ??????? ????????, ???????;  
> ???????????, ??????? ???????.	15 The sun and  
> the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining.
> ??  ??????? ?????????? ????????,  
> ??????????????? ?????? ??????,  
> ??????????, ???????? ???????; ???????  
> ??????? ????????, ???????? ???????  
> ??????????.	16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter  
> His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake;  
> but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to  
> the children of Israel.
> ??  ???????????, ???? ????? ??????  
> ??????????, ??????, ?????????? ???- 
> ????????; ????????? ????????????  
> ??????, ???????? ???-?????????-????  
> ????.  {?}	17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God,  
> dwelling in Zion My holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and  
> there shall no strangers pass through her any more. {S}
> ??  ??????? ??????? ?????? ????????  
> ???????? ??????, ?????????????  
> ?????????? ?????, ?????-????????  
> ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????,  
> ??????? ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???- 
> ????? ???????????.	18 And it shall come to pass in  
> that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweet wine, and the  
> hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall flow  
> with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the  
> LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
> ??  ?????????, ?????????? ???????,  
> ????????, ?????????? ????????  
> ????????; ??????? ?????? ????????,  
> ??????-???????? ???-??????  
> ??????????.	19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall  
> be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of  
> Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
> ?  ?????????, ???????? ???????;  
> ?????????????, ?????? ??????.	20 But Judah  
> shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to  
> generation.
> ??  ???????????, ?????? ???-?????????;  
> ???????, ?????? ??????????.  {?}	21 And I  
> will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent;  
> and the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
>
> Jimmy Carter, George Bush Senior, Bill Clinton, George Bush and now  
> Obama.
>
> History is the judge, from the Sinai, to Shomron, from Gush Katif to  
> Amona.
> That was entree' , now the main course ...... the remainder of  
> Shomron, Golan and YERUSHALAYIM.
>
> The Tanakh is jammed full of HaShem's Prophetic word.
> I need not elaborate beyond this. The proof is in the pudding.
>
> " I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU AND I WILL.................."
>
> Any nation, including my nation of Australia, that goes down this  
> path of a "two state solution" is playing with national suicide and  
> therefore in total contravention of HaShem's Will and Holy Purpose.
> Politics is just the ranting of humanity's ego.
>
> May His Kingdom come speedily in our day.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Date: February 3, 2009 12:48:09 PM EST
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Cc: rknichol at gapac.com
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...
> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Dear Joe and all,
>
> No matter what one thinks of our current President I would caution  
> everyone to be very careful of spreading these kinds of stories and  
> believing anything that is circulated on the internet. I have  
> learned myself, through bitter experience, how absolutely deadly a  
> medium this can be, as outright lies and rumors were widely  
> circulated about me in 2006 after I came out in support of the  
> Talpiot tomb being "possibly" that of Jesus of Nazareth. I could not  
> believe the things that were said, all false.
>
> If you search a bit on the internet you will find that the passage  
> supposedly quoted in this article by Amir Taheri does not exist.  
> This is confirmed to me by our faculty here who are trained in  
> Islamic studies. Further, Mr. Taheri has been largely discredited,  
> now even by one of his main supporters.
>
> See http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/forbes-pulls-article-on-obama-as-warrior-for-hidden-imam/ 
>  for some of the beginning references.
>
> Love him, hate him, but no matter what, deal only according to the  
> strictest high standards of truth and verification as taught by our  
> Torah. Receiving something via an e-mail or reading it on a Web site  
> or Blog does not make it true.
>
> James Tabor
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Joe Indomenico wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Tuesday, February 3
>> Obama: The Promised Warrior
>> Apparently President Barack Hussein Obama employed representatives  
>> and experts to holdsecret high-level talkswith Iran and Syria  
>> months prior to his election as president, organizers of the  
>> meetings told Agence France Presse on Monday.
>>
>> It would appear that the article originally published in Forbes  
>> magazine on 26 Oct last year, and then quickly removed, is true and  
>> therefore worth reprinting to refresh our memories:
>>
>> Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden  
>> Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world?by Amir Taheri
>>
>> The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a  
>> pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a  
>> Shiite text of the 17th century. The tradition comes from Bahar al- 
>> Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in  
>> 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.
>> According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's  
>> cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just  
>> before the return of the Mahdi, the Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black  
>> man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding  
>> "the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry  
>> "a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.  
>> The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is  
>> with us."
>>
>> In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--Barack  
>> Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic and Persian. His  
>> family name, Obama, written in the Persian alphabet, reads O Ba Ma,  
>> which means "he is with us," the magic formula in Majlisi's  
>> tradition.
>>
>> Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees Obama's  
>> rise as another sign of the West's decline and the triumph of  
>> Islam. Obama's promise to seek unconditional talks with the Islamic  
>> Republic is cited as a sign that the U.S. is ready to admit defeat.  
>> Obama's position could mean abandoning three resolutions passed by  
>> the United Nations Security Council setting conditions that Iran  
>> should meet to avoid sanctions. Seeking unconditional talks with  
>> the Khomeinists also means an admission of moral equivalence  
>> between the U.S. and the Islamic Republic. It would imply an end to  
>> the description by the U.S. of the regime as a "systematic violator  
>> of human rights."
>>
>> Obama has abandoned claims by all U.S. administrations in the past  
>> 30 years that Iran is "a state sponsor of terrorism." Instead, he  
>> uses the term "violent groups" to describe Iran-financed outfits  
>> such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
>>
>> Obama has also promised to attend a summit of the Organization of  
>> the Islamic Conference within the first 100 days of his presidency.  
>> Such a move would please the mullahs, who have always demanded that  
>> Islam be treated differently, and that Muslim nations act as a bloc  
>> in dealings with Infidel nations.
>>
>> Obama's election would boost President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's  
>> chances of winning a second term next June. Ahmadinejad's entourage  
>> claim that his "steadfastness in resisting the American Great  
>> Satan" was a factor in helping Obama defeat "hardliners" such as  
>> Hillary Clinton and, later, it hopes, John McCain.
>>
>> "President Ahmadinejad has taught Americans a lesson," says Hassan  
>> Abbasi, a "strategic adviser" to the Iranian president. "This is  
>> why they are now choosing someone who understands Iran's power."  
>> The Iranian leader's entourage also point out that Obama copied his  
>> campaign slogan "Yes, We Can" from Ahmadinejad's "We Can," used  
>> four years ago.
>>
>> A number of Khomeinist officials have indicated their preference  
>> for Obama over McCain, who is regarded as an "enemy of Islam." A  
>> Foreign Ministry spokesman says Iran does not wish to dictate the  
>> choice of the Americans but finds Obama "a better choice for  
>> everyone." Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Islamic Majlis, Iran's  
>> ersatz parliament, has gone further by saying the Islamic Republic  
>> "prefers to see Barack Obama in the White House" next year.
>>
>> Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official media,  
>> increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph Biden as his vice- 
>> presidential running mate. Biden was an early supporter of the  
>> Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979 and, for the past 30 years, has  
>> been a consistent advocate of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a  
>> regional power. He has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the  
>> U.S. and has always voted against sanctions on Iran.
>>
>> Ahmadinejad has described the U.S. as a "sunset" (ofuli) power as  
>> opposed to Islam, which he says is a "sunrise" (toluee) power. Last  
>> summer, he inaugurated an international conference called World  
>> Without America--attended by anti-Americans from all over the  
>> world, including the U.S.
>>
>> Seen from Tehran, Obama's election would demoralize the U.S. armed  
>> forces by casting doubt on their victories in Iraq and Afghanistan,  
>> if not actually transforming them into defeat. American retreat  
>> from the Middle East under Obama would enable the Islamic Republic  
>> to pursue hegemony of the region. Tehran is especially interested  
>> in dominating Iraq, thus consolidating a new position that extends  
>> its power to the Mediterranean through Syria and Lebanon.
>> During the World Without America conference, several speakers  
>> speculated that Obama would show "understanding of Muslim  
>> grievances" with regard to Palestine. Ahmadinejad hopes to persuade  
>> a future President Obama to adopt the "Iranian solution for  
>> Palestine," which aims at creating a single state in which Jews  
>> would quickly become a minority.
>>
>> Judging by anecdotal evidence and the buzz among Iranian bloggers,  
>> while the ruling Khomeinists favor Obama, the mass of Iranians  
>> regard (and dislike) the Democrat candidate as an appeaser of the  
>> mullahs. Iran, along with Israel, is the only country in the Middle  
>> East where the United States remains popular. An Obama presidency,  
>> perceived as friendly to the oppressive regime in Tehran, may  
>> change that.
>>
>> This article was reprinted from Forbes.com at the link shown below,  
>> however the original article has now been removedhttp://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/26/obama-iran-ahmadinejad-oped-cx_at_1026taheri.html
>>
>> This portends to some serious developments in the future that will  
>> impact on us all.
>>
>> Baruch HaShem that HE alone is in full control of the affairs of men.
>> The gathering of all nations into the Valley of Yehosaphat is one  
>> step closer.
>>
>> Blessed be the Holy One, for His mercy endures forever.
>>
>> Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/9dc2ffb4/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb  3 18:33:47 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 00:33:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
In-Reply-To: <636251.9990.qm@web82505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <020420090033.14212.4988E26A000972DE0000378422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Helen,

Carin and I met Reb. Singer when we were over there in December.  He met with us on the spur of the moment after we were referred to him by Jeremy Gimpel.  He is a really down-to-earth man with an openess toward Ephraimites.  He had coffee with us in the old city ans we talked for two hours.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>: -------------- 



--- 
My e-mail was down this morning and I tried to send this from work but it bounced back. It should go through now. Hope you all enjoy his style of lecturing.

Kind regards,

Helen
--- On Tue, 2/3/09, helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com> wrote:

From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com>
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:58 AM



-----Original Message-----
From: Lusk,Helen BDM BIP-US-R 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:52 AM
To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'; 'uilist at unitedisrael.org'
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon


 Dear All:

Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon with Tovia Singer on  Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!  I just discovered him last week.  Perhaps you already know about him.   http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199   

 Kind regards
Helen 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/837c32bc/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 19:34:26 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:34:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Gibbs
Message-ID: <320939.99091.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Things seem to be in warp speed these days.  Can't wait to see the response.   It's like watching a soap opera.

The United States will use "all elements of our national power" to deal with Iran, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Tuesday after Tehran said it had launched a satellite into orbit.



"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 21:11:55 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:11:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?Financial_Crisis=E2=80=94Spiritual_Opportun?=
	=?utf-8?q?ity=3F?=
Message-ID: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.	
Numbers 13:32.
2.	
This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.	
Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
4.	
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
5.	
See Genesis 7:17.
6.	
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--



      


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 21:20:19 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:20:19 -0800
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=97Spiritual_Opportun?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?ity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902031920s5ef8377fv432ae3ae378eb91f@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Cody -

    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I
lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat
HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to
no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).

     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual
opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.

     Take care,
          * Hanoch
*
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>
>
> By Yosef Marcus
>
> One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the
> need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism,
> led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject
> the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by
> the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material
> needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study,
> prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its
> inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
> Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the
> real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for
> most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules.
> Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to
> make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by
> those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
> (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved
> in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says
> the Psalmist--let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There
> is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his
> boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920):
> "Feet in boots, I have seen--but a head in boots...?")
> But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves
> inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the
> Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
> Many Waters
> Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many
> waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its
> chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of
> financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly
> streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the
> soul's inherent love for G-d.
> The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual
> clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary
> amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses
> one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that
> never lets up.
> Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He
> describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and
> vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with
> worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
> Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put
> their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds.
> Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
> Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G-d of even such a harassed soul
> cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential
> nature.
> This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
> Soul Root
> The love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses
> asks G-d to show him "His glory," G-d says, "I will place in you in the
> cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial
> source of all of creation.
> The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which
> contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
> So when G-d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving
> a glimpse into the reality closest to G-d's essence--the place where all of
> creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
> The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with
> "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
> To The Contrary
> The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah
> in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.
> These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the
> Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman
> sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt
> world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them,
> purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up
> a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means
> "tranquility"--peace to the worlds.
> So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they
> purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and
> darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its
> innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark"
> of prayer and study--they uplift it.5
> For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane,
> it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place.
> Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a
> mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters"
> that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is
> natural to it.
> This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"--their raison d'?tre.
> They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought
> into being to achieve the very opposite.
> Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the
> mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the
> same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in
> the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even
> greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge
> of darkness...."6
> FOOTNOTES
> 1.
> Numbers 13:32.
> 2.
> This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also
> contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by
> merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited
> through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place
> the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the
> rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire
> itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
> 3.
> Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
> 4.
> A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
> 5.
> See Genesis 7:17.
> 6.
> Torah Or, Noach.
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula,
> no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/83b41e41/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 21:48:56 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 22:48:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
In-Reply-To: <020420090033.14212.4988E26A000972DE0000378422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <020420090033.14212.4988E26A000972DE0000378422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <446F6557-B8B5-4BCA-9C4A-44769C2ABC44@earthlink.net>

I had no idea you had met him or just forgot if I had read it in your  
reports. So glad to hear you met him.

James


On Feb 3, 2009, at 7:33 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Hey Helen,
>
> Carin and I met Reb. Singer when we were over there in December.  He  
> met with us on the spur of the moment after we were referred to him  
> by Jeremy Gimpel.  He is a really down-to-earth man with an openess  
> toward Ephraimites.  He had coffee with us in the old city ans we  
> talked for two hours.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net 
> >: --------------
>
>
>
> ---
> My e-mail was down this morning and I tried to send this from work  
> but it bounced back. It should go through now. Hope you all enjoy  
> his style of lecturing.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Helen
> --- On Tue, 2/3/09, helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com 
> > wrote:
> From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com 
> >
> Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
> To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net
> Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:58 AM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lusk,Helen BDM BIP-US-R
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:52 AM
> To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'; 'uilist at unitedisrael.org'
> Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
>
>  Dear All:
> Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon with Tovia  
> Singer on  Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!  I just discovered  
> him last week.  Perhaps you already know about him.   http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199
>
>  Kind regards
> Helen
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/1d7626c5/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb  4 06:17:18 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 07:17:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
Message-ID: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>

I know there are many people who are readers of this dialogue post, whom
never respond or write, some of you may know this gentlemen many of you will
not.

 

Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday afternoon.
Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last several days in the
hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of Tom?s son in laws and the
family was aware of his condition and knew that his departure was close at
hand.  

 

I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up and I
received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I lived some 8 to
10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was that the news letter he
was receiving was just like the one I had received several days before and
being familiar with the contents I thought this man might be a seeker and so
a friendship begin.   I remember looking Tom up in the phone book and
calling him up.   We must have talked for 2 hours about our respective
journeys in trying to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian
upbringing.   Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church
trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had enough?.   He
was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired Marine he understood well the
?left boot?.   In these early days very few people knew of Ephraimites,
Noahides or that there was a truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an
ancient path to seek out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.

 

A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in Athens Tn.
Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by his family and friends.
Tom will now rest with his bride of over 50 years, Virginia.

 

Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old
paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/c4111b41/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 06:22:08 2009
From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:22:08 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <973430453-1233750017-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1139107248-@bxe263.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I remember him well. This is very sad news. Semper Fi and shalom
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 07:17:18 
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater


_______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 07:02:43 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:02:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <5C57702A-7E06-45C5-B93E-363E44703E01@earthlink.net>

Thanks so much for this Marvin. I remember Tom so very well from the  
many times I came to the Athens conference back in the 1990s. Your  
story was quite moving.

"Precious in the eyes of YHVH is the death of his Hasidim."

James


On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:17 AM, mhyde wrote:

> I know there are many people who are readers of this dialogue post,  
> whom never respond or write, some of you may know this gentlemen  
> many of you will not.
>
> Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday  
> afternoon.  Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last  
> several days in the hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of  
> Tom?s son in laws and the family was aware of his condition and  
> knew that his departure was close at hand.
>
> I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up  
> and I received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I  
> lived some 8 to 10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was  
> that the news letter he was receiving was just like the one I had  
> received several days before and being familiar with the contents I  
> thought this man might be a seeker and so a friendship begin.   I  
> remember looking Tom up in the phone book and calling him up.   We  
> must have talked for 2 hours about our respective journeys in trying  
> to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian upbringing.    
> Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church  
> trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had  
> enough?.   He was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired  
> Marine he understood well the ?left boot?.   In these early days  
> very few people knew of Ephraimites, Noahides or that there was a  
> truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an ancient path to seek  
> out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.
>
> A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in  
> Athens Tn.   Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by  
> his family and friends.   Tom will now rest with his bride of over  
> 50 years, Virginia.
>
> Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask  
> for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find  
> rest for yourselves.
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/a3e421b7/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 07:07:58 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:07:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <A2C7DA4B-06B2-4594-B3D5-1D251BF3398B@earthlink.net>

Marvin,

The mixed up "newsletter" story is an amazing one. Do you remember  
what it was that came in the mail?

James


On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:17 AM, mhyde wrote:

> Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday  
> afternoon.  Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last  
> several days in the hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of  
> Tom?s son in laws and the family was aware of his condition and  
> knew that his departure was close at hand.
>
> I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up  
> and I received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I  
> lived some 8 to 10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was  
> that the news letter he was receiving was just like the one I had  
> received several days before and being familiar with the contents I  
> thought this man might be a seeker and so a friendship begin.   I  
> remember looking Tom up in the phone book and calling him up.   We  
> must have talked for 2 hours about our respective journeys in trying  
> to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian upbringing.    
> Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church  
> trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had  
> enough?.   He was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired  
> Marine he understood well the ?left boot?.   In these early days  
> very few people knew of Ephraimites, Noahides or that there was a  
> truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an ancient path to seek  
> out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.
>
> A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in  
> Athens Tn.   Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by  
> his family and friends.   Tom will now rest with his bride of over  
> 50 years, Virginia.
>
> Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask  
> for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find  
> rest for yourselves.
> ______________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/fa46f756/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 07:11:44 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:11:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <430950.86121.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Marvin,

So sad to loose a friend...

I don't know if I ever met him or not...Do you have a photo? There's a good chance that I may have met him, since I helped to start an assembly in Athens in 1982 and lived and worked there some 12 or 13 years and was around some folk who were off the beaten path. It's a wonder that I never crossed paths with others of you who came to Athens. I remember when the Baptist Church turned into a Noachide Assembly.


Love & Prayers,
Tracy



________________________________
From: mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 7:17:18 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater

 
I know there are many people who are readers of this
dialogue post, whom never respond or write, some of you may know this gentlemen
many of you will not.
 
Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late
Monday afternoon.  Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last several
days in the hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of Tom?s son in laws
and the family was aware of his condition and knew that his departure was close
at hand.  
 
I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got
cross up and I received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I lived
some 8 to 10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was that the news
letter he was receiving was just like the one I had received several days
before and being familiar with the contents I thought this man might be a
seeker and so a friendship begin.   I remember looking Tom up in the phone book
and calling him up.   We must have talked for 2 hours about our respective
journeys in trying to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian
upbringing.   Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist  Church trying to share
what he had been learning and ?they? had had enough?.   He was recently ?Unchurched?.  
Being a retired Marine he understood well the ?left boot?.   In these early
days very few people knew of Ephraimites, Noahides or that there was a truth, a
faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an ancient path to seek out,  Tom Slater was
one of those early pioneers.
 
A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held
in Athens Tn.   
Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by his family and friends.  
Tom will now rest with his bride of over 50 years, Virginia .
 
Jer 6:16Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where
the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves. 


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/ae352a7b/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 07:15:35 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:15:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtEaWFsb2d1ZV0gRmluYW5jaWFsIENyaXNpc+KAlFNwaXJpdHVhbCBP?=
	=?utf-8?B?cHBvcnR1bml0eT8=?=
References: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<855590370902031920s5ef8377fv432ae3ae378eb91f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <364512.71563.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hey Hanoch,
Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
Tracy




________________________________
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


Hey Cody - 
 
    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).
 
     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
 
     Take care,
          Hanoch


On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.
Numbers 13:32.
2.
This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.
Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
4.
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
5.
See Genesis 7:17.
6.
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--




_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/e0373f64/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 07:24:20 2009
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:24:20 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[Dialogue]=20Financial=20Crisis=E2=80=94Spiritua?=
	=?UTF-8?Q?l=20Opportunity=3F?=
Message-ID: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com>

Thanks Tracy - 
 
     You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem  totally pathetic, or something 
bizarre like that.  The most difficult part  of this new 'trial' was this 
morning when I had to call my daughters and  alert them of my new status.    They 
rely upon me (as to be expected)  to help support them - pay the rent, food, 
that kind of stuff.  May HaShem  open my eyes to some opportunities that I have 
not realized or understood,  yet.
 
       Thanks for everything bro,
                    Hanoch
 
 
In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:

 
Hey Hanoch,
Have started a new round of prayers for  you!!
Tracy


 
____________________________________
 From: Hanoch Young  <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19  PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue]  Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

Hey Cody - 
 
    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to  the financial crisis, I 
lost my job today, along with seven of my  colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat 
HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on  Aliya in September, I have little to 
no chance to get another position here  (the job market in NYC is horrific).
 
     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is  to provide a 'spiritual 
opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for  posting it.
 
     Take care,
           Hanoch


On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <_oneillcody at yahoo.com_ 
(mailto:oneillcody at yahoo.com) >  wrote:

Financial  Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the  greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the 
need to earn  a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led 
the twelve  spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject the 
Land  promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the  
clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material  needs 
were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study,  prayer 
and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its  
inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of  our souls survive the onslaught of "the real 
world"?To remain in a spiritual  heaven, however, is not an option for most 
of us. The average person must  "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, 
it is through this entry  that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the 
mundane world a place of  Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who 
spend their days in  isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us  to remain aloof even while involved 
in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The  work of your hands shall you eat," says 
the Psalmist?let your mind and heart  remain free for loftier matters. There is 
the famous story about the chassid  who had become overly involved in his 
boot business. He was told by Rabbi  Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): 
"Feet in boots, I have seen?but a  head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We  often find ourselves 
inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then  spiritually lost? Can the Divine 
sensibilities of our souls survive the  onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of  Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many 
waters cannot extinguish the  love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its 
chassidic interpretation, this  verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial 
worries that wash over the  soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of 
mundane thoughts that  threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
The verse is  obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual 
clarity. Nor does it  refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of 
mental  involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for 
whom  mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets  up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He  
describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and  vacillates 
endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with  worries and 
cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to  the phenomenon of those who are liable to put 
their lives in danger for the  sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. 
Such an obsession must wreak  havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even  such a harassed soul 
cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on  its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty  origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot  be smotheredWhen Moses 
asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will  place in you in the cleft 
of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the  most primordial source of 
all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is  employed to allude to the flint stone, which 
contains the potential for  fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock  that means that Moses is receiving 
a glimpse into the reality closest to  G?d's essence?the place where all of 
creation exists in its most sublime and  undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when  it is inundated with 
"many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than  survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs,  appear earlier in the Torah in 
the form of the "many waters" that flooded  the earth in the days of Noah. 
These waters, too, are the flood of mundane  thoughts that surround "the Ark," 
the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's  day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the 
waters of the Flood as more than a  punitive tool for a corrupt world. The 
forty days and nights of "Noah's  waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the 
world, like the forty seah4 of  water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The 
floodwaters thereby brought  noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the 
worlds.
So which one  is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they 
purifying agents?  The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they 
present,  they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost 
capacities.  The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and  
study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a  purely spiritual plane, 
it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one  that remains in one place. 
Only through its descent into the body and  physical world can it become a 
mehalech, one that ascends from one level to  the next. The "many waters" that 
challenge the soul also enable it to ascend  to a higher level than is natural to 
it.
This in fact is the very purpose  of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. 
They therefore cannot extinguish  the soul's fire, since they are brought into 
being to achieve the very  opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And  this is the 
mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of  achieving the same 
spiritual development through prayer as those who spend  their days in the 
'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer  is even greater, since 
abundance of light is produced by the presence and  challenge of darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.
Numbers 13:32.
2.
This  level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also  
contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by  
merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited  
through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place  the coal 
in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the  rock. 
This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire  itself 
(see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.
Likkutei Torah,  Acharei 26c.
4.
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3  liters.
5.
See Genesis 7:17.
6.
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be  courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, 
no  special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity 
 that sooner or later is presented to us  all."
--JFK--




_______________________________________________









_______________________________________________


**************Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to 
stocks and so much more. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/0896caf5/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 07:43:49 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:43:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?
Message-ID: <253300.9531.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So Sorry to hear this Hanoch.  It's very reassuring to know that Hashem is in control and that everything that happens to us is for our benefit.  I am looking forward to the opportunity for us to meet soon in the land.

-Cody

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--




      


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb  4 08:22:33 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:22:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
In-Reply-To: <446F6557-B8B5-4BCA-9C4A-44769C2ABC44@earthlink.net>
References: <020420090033.14212.4988E26A000972DE0000378422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<446F6557-B8B5-4BCA-9C4A-44769C2ABC44@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <020420091422.17447.4989A4A8000759F80000442722243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey James,

He is a very interesting and engaging person, very open to frank discussion.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

I had no idea you had met him or just forgot if I had read it in your reports. So glad to hear you met him.


James




On Feb 3, 2009, at 7:33 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:


Hey Helen,

Carin and I met Reb. Singer when we were over there in December.  He met with us on the spur of the moment after we were referred to him by Jeremy Gimpel.  He is a really down-to-earth man with an openess toward Ephraimites.  He had coffee with us in the old city ans we talked for two hours.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>: -------------- 



--- 
My e-mail was down this morning and I tried to send this from work but it bounced back. It should go through now. Hope you all enjoy his style of lecturing.

Kind regards,

Helen
--- On Tue, 2/3/09, helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com> wrote:

From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com <helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com>
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:58 AM



-----Original Message-----
From: Lusk,Helen BDM BIP-US-R 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:52 AM
To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'; 'uilist at unitedisrael.org'
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon


 Dear All:

Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon with Tovia Singer on  Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!  I just discovered him last week.  Perhaps you already know about him.   http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199   

 Kind regards
Helen 


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/03de5c2b/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb  4 10:42:57 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:42:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <5C57702A-7E06-45C5-B93E-363E44703E01@earthlink.net>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<5C57702A-7E06-45C5-B93E-363E44703E01@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3254A22D1CC844F4BAC2A37C12D267D5@bettylaptop>

Yes, Marvin, thank you for letting us know.  Roger and I remember Tom from
our coming to Athens Conference too.  We could always count on a warm
greeting from Tom.  He will be remembered in his community as well as in the
hearts of all who knew him?and certainly, HaShem counts him ?precious.?

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:03 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tom Slater

 

Thanks so much for this Marvin. I remember Tom so very well from the many
times I came to the Athens conference back in the 1990s. Your story was
quite moving. 

 

"Precious in the eyes of YHVH is the death of his Hasidim."

 

James

 

 

On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:17 AM, mhyde wrote:





I know there are many people who are readers of this dialogue post, whom
never respond or write, some of you may know this gentlemen many of you will
not.

 

Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday afternoon.
Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last several days in the
hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of Tom?s son in laws and the
family was aware of his condition and knew that his departure was close at
hand. 

 

I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up and I
received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I lived some 8 to
10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was that the news letter he
was receiving was just like the one I had received several days before and
being familiar with the contents I thought this man might be a seeker and so
a friendship begin.   I remember looking Tom up in the phone book and
calling him up.   We must have talked for 2 hours about our respective
journeys in trying to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian
upbringing.   Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church
trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had enough?.   He
was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired Marine he understood well the
?left boot?.   In these early days very few people knew of Ephraimites,
Noahides or that there was a truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an
ancient path to seek out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.

 

A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in Athens Tn.
Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by his family and friends.
Tom will now rest with his bride of over 50 years, Virginia.

 

Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old
paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.

_______________________________________________



 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/7849ba8f/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb  4 11:06:37 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:06:37 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
	& Tovia Singer
In-Reply-To: <446F6557-B8B5-4BCA-9C4A-44769C2ABC44@earthlink.net>
References: <020420090033.14212.4988E26A000972DE0000378422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<446F6557-B8B5-4BCA-9C4A-44769C2ABC44@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B6D6622007E1451899ABF10EBE03FDFB@bettylaptop>

Roger and I met Tovia Singer a number of years ago as well.  We did not have
the special one on one time that you had John, but we were privileged to
hear him speak and have a copy of his workbook and tapes in our library.  He
is very powerful and has brought many back to their Jewish roots.  

 

One such very influential person in Guma Aguiar, the oil magnate, who has
given tons on money to Nefesh B/Nefesh and actively works with them to
gather Jews from around the world and bring them home..  He was born in
Brazil to Jewish parents who immigrated to the states when he was a baby.
He grew up as in the Evangelical Christian movement, but always had many
questions.until he met Tovia, who had the answers for him.  After returning
to his Jewish roots, he and his family made aliyah to Israel where they are
now living.  You can hear his short 2 minute speech on Arutz Sheva.  Go to
the website below and click on TV and you will see his name and photo among
the ones who spoke at the recent Jerusalem Conference.  It is quite moving. 

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786

 

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:49 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David
Solomon

 

I had no idea you had met him or just forgot if I had read it in your
reports. So glad to hear you met him.

 

James

 

 

On Feb 3, 2009, at 7:33 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:





Hey Helen,

 

Carin and I met Reb. Singer when we were over there in December.  He met
with us on the spur of the moment after we were referred to him by Jeremy
Gimpel.  He is a really down-to-earth man with an openess toward
Ephraimites.  He had coffee with us in the old city ans we talked for two
hours.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>:
-------------- 




--- 


My e-mail was down this morning and I tried to send this from work but it
bounced back. It should go through now. Hope you all enjoy his style of
lecturing.

 

Kind regards,

 

Helen
--- On Tue, 2/3/09, helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com
<helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com> wrote:

From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com
<helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com>
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:58 AM

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lusk,Helen BDM BIP-US-R 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:52 AM
To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'; 'uilist at unitedisrael.org'
Subject: FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon

 Dear All:

Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon with Tovia Singer on
Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!  I just discovered him last week.
Perhaps you already know about him.
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199>
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199   

 

 Kind regards

Helen 

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/44222907/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 11:52:01 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:52:01 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=E2=80=94?=
	=?utf-8?Q?Spiritual_Opportunity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>

Hanoch,

I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!

Thank YOU for everything you do for all of us,

Pat         


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


Thanks Tracy - 

     You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.    They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent, food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities that I have not realized or understood, yet.

       Thanks for everything bro,
                    Hanoch

In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:
  Hey Hanoch,
  Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
  Tracy




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


  Hey Cody - 

      I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).

       So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.

       Take care,
             Hanoch


  On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

    Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


    By Yosef Marcus

    One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
    Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
    (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
    But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
    Many Waters
    Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
    The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
    Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
    Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
    Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
    This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
    Soul Root
    The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
    The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
    So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
    The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
    To The Contrary
    The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
    So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study?they uplift it.5
    For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
    This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
    Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness?."6
    FOOTNOTES
    1.
    Numbers 13:32.
    2.
    This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
    3.
    Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
    4.
    A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
    5.
    See Genesis 7:17.
    6.
    Torah Or, Noach.
    "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
    --JFK--




    _______________________________________________






  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/2fc3f9f6/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 12:28:30 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:28:30 -0500
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=97Spiritual_Opportun?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?ity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com>
	<COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Pat,

     Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement and support,
they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help) it will all work
out...

                         *  Hanoch
*
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hanoch,
>
> I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem
> make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!
>
> Thank *YOU* for everything you do for all of us,
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>   *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>
> Thanks Tracy -
>
>      You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something
> bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this
> morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.
> They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent,
> food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities
> that I have not realized or understood, yet.
>
>        Thanks for everything bro,
>                  *   Hanoch*
> **
>  In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:
>
>  Hey Hanoch,
> Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
> Tracy
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>
> Hey Cody -
>
>     I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis,
> I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will,
> B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have
> little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is
> horrific).
>
>      So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a
> 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
>
>      Take care,
>           * Hanoch
> *
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>>
>>
>> By Yosef Marcus
>>
>> One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the
>> need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism,
>> led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject
>> the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by
>> the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material
>> needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study,
>> prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its
>> inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
>> Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the
>> real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for
>> most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules.
>> Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to
>> make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by
>> those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
>> (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved
>> in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says
>> the Psalmist--let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There
>> is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his
>> boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920):
>> "Feet in boots, I have seen--but a head in boots...?")
>> But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves
>> inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the
>> Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
>> Many Waters
>> Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many
>> waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its
>> chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of
>> financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly
>> streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the
>> soul's inherent love for G-d.
>> The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual
>> clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary
>> amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses
>> one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that
>> never lets up.
>> Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He
>> describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and
>> vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with
>> worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
>> Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put
>> their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds.
>> Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
>> Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G-d of even such a harassed soul
>> cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential
>> nature.
>> This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
>> Soul Root
>> The love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses
>> asks G-d to show him "His glory," G-d says, "I will place in you in the
>> cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial
>> source of all of creation.
>> The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which
>> contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
>> So when G-d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is
>> receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G-d's essence--the place
>> where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
>> The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated
>> with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
>> To The Contrary
>> The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah
>> in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.
>> These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the
>> Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman
>> sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt
>> world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them,
>> purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up
>> a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means
>> "tranquility"--peace to the worlds.
>> So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they
>> purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and
>> darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its
>> innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark"
>> of prayer and study--they uplift it.5
>> For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane,
>> it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place.
>> Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a
>> mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters"
>> that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is
>> natural to it.
>> This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"--their raison d'?tre.
>> They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought
>> into being to achieve the very opposite.
>> Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the
>> mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the
>> same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in
>> the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even
>> greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge
>> of darkness...."6
>> FOOTNOTES
>> 1.
>> Numbers 13:32.
>> 2.
>> This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which
>> also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be
>> revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be
>> elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to
>> place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case
>> of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not
>> the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
>> 3.
>> Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
>> 4.
>> A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
>> 5.
>> See Genesis 7:17.
>> 6.
>> Torah Or, Noach.
>> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic
>> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
>> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
>> --JFK--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so
> much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022>.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/8c1ca157/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb  4 12:36:52 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:36:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <A2C7DA4B-06B2-4594-B3D5-1D251BF3398B@earthlink.net>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<A2C7DA4B-06B2-4594-B3D5-1D251BF3398B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00fa01c986f7$8db1e5a0$0400a8c0@marvin>

James,

 

I do remember the newsletter.   Tom had traveled around the country form
Florida to Alaska. He told the story of how he deposited his 5 daughters in
different states as he and Virginia traveled around with the last stop in
Alaska.   Then about 10 years before retirement he moved to East Tennessee
and figured he and the wife could have a peaceful retirement (alone) and go
and visit the children and grandkids in the different places they had lived.
As Tom continued to tell the story he said, ?lo and behold they all followed
him to Tennessee?..  and then they moved in. :-)   Tom was a character.   

 

The publication was an issue of  ?The Researcher? from,  Institute of
Judaic-Christian Research, Vendyl Jones.  I do not remember, how Tom got on
Vendyl?s mailing list, but he was on the path before our paths crossed and
as best I remember this was about 1989 maybe 90.

 

Marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tom Slater

 

Marvin,

 

The mixed up "newsletter" story is an amazing one. Do you remember what it
was that came in the mail?

 

James

 

 

On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:17 AM, mhyde wrote:





Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday afternoon.
Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last several days in the
hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of Tom?s son in laws and the
family was aware of his condition and knew that his departure was close at
hand. 

 

I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up and I
received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I lived some 8 to
10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was that the news letter he
was receiving was just like the one I had received several days before and
being familiar with the contents I thought this man might be a seeker and so
a friendship begin.   I remember looking Tom up in the phone book and
calling him up.   We must have talked for 2 hours about our respective
journeys in trying to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian
upbringing.   Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church
trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had enough?.   He
was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired Marine he understood well the
?left boot?.   In these early days very few people knew of Ephraimites,
Noahides or that there was a truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an
ancient path to seek out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.

 

A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in Athens Tn.
Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by his family and friends.
Tom will now rest with his bride of over 50 years, Virginia.

 

Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old
paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.

______________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/70cf167e/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb  4 13:00:40 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:00:40 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=E2=80=94?=
	=?utf-8?Q?Spiritual_Opportunity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com><COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BEBFF3665E04C1CB40675D8D2BD6EDC@bettylaptop>

Oh Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this news.  I can certainly relate, and will join Pat and Tracy and the others in prayer for you, as Roger and I lost our jobs back in November and so far haven?t found anything.  May HaShem go before you and provide you and your daughters with all your needs, including the financial means you need to make aliyah and live in the Land!  Hang in there.  It will be okay.  I am sure there is a job just ?waiting? for you to fill it. 

 

Much, much love and prayers,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

 

Hey Pat,

 

     Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement and support, they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help) it will all work out...

 

                           Hanoch

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hanoch,

 

I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!

 

Thank YOU for everything you do for all of us,

 

Pat         

 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

 

Thanks Tracy - 

 

     You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.    They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent, food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities that I have not realized or understood, yet.

 

       Thanks for everything bro,

                    Hanoch

 

In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:

Hey Hanoch,
Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
Tracy

 


  _____  


From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

Hey Cody - 

 

    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).

 

     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.

 

     Take care,

           Hanoch

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.
Numbers 13:32.
2.
This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.
Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
4.
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
5.
See Genesis 7:17.
6.
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--




_______________________________________________

 




_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022> . 

  _____  

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/a544cdad/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 13:19:19 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:19:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c986f7$8db1e5a0$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<A2C7DA4B-06B2-4594-B3D5-1D251BF3398B@earthlink.net>
	<00fa01c986f7$8db1e5a0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <1FFD42B8-24AD-4C85-BE57-03636EAB4FF3@earthlink.net>

Thanks I thought it might be that or something from Jim Meyers...It is  
really amazing, is it not, how we all got connected, here and there,  
by this and that.

James


On Feb 4, 2009, at 1:36 PM, mhyde wrote:

> James,
>
> I do remember the newsletter.   Tom had traveled around the country  
> form Florida to Alaska. He told the story of how he deposited his 5  
> daughters in different states as he and Virginia traveled around  
> with the last stop in Alaska.   Then about 10 years before  
> retirement he moved to East Tennessee and figured he and the wife  
> could have a peaceful retirement (alone) and go and visit the  
> children and grandkids in the different places they had lived.   As  
> Tom continued to tell the story he said, ?lo and behold they all  
> followed him to Tennessee?..  and then they moved in. J   Tom was a  
> character.
>
> The publication was an issue of  ?The Researcher? from,   
> Institute of Judaic-Christian Research, Vendyl Jones.  I do not  
> remember, how Tom got on Vendyl?s mailing list, but he was on the  
> path before our paths crossed and as best I remember this was about  
> 1989 maybe 90.
>
> Marvin
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:08 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
>
> Marvin,
>
> The mixed up "newsletter" story is an amazing one. Do you remember  
> what it was that came in the mail?
>
> James
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:17 AM, mhyde wrote:
>
>
> Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday  
> afternoon.  Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last  
> several days in the hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of  
> Tom?s son in laws and the family was aware of his condition and  
> knew that his departure was close at hand.
>
> I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up  
> and I received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I  
> lived some 8 to 10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was  
> that the news letter he was receiving was just like the one I had  
> received several days before and being familiar with the contents I  
> thought this man might be a seeker and so a friendship begin.   I  
> remember looking Tom up in the phone book and calling him up.   We  
> must have talked for 2 hours about our respective journeys in trying  
> to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian upbringing.    
> Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church  
> trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had  
> enough?.   He was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired  
> Marine he understood well the ?left boot?.   In these early days  
> very few people knew of Ephraimites, Noahides or that there was a  
> truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an ancient path to seek  
> out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.
>
> A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in  
> Athens Tn.   Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by  
> his family and friends.   Tom will now rest with his bride of over  
> 50 years, Virginia.
>
> Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask  
> for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find  
> rest for yourselves.
> ______________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/ff820438/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb  4 13:36:34 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:36:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater
In-Reply-To: <430950.86121.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <008001c986c2$87875320$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<430950.86121.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011701c986ff$e55b7b10$0400a8c0@marvin>

Tracy, I do not have a photo.    

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:12 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tom Slater

 

Marvin,

So sad to loose a friend...

I don't know if I ever met him or not...Do you have a photo? There's a good
chance that I may have met him, since I helped to start an assembly in
Athens in 1982 and lived and worked there some 12 or 13 years and was around
some folk who were off the beaten path. It's a wonder that I never crossed
paths with others of you who came to Athens. I remember when the Baptist
Church turned into a Noachide Assembly.


Love & Prayers,
Tracy

  _____  

From: mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 7:17:18 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Tom Slater

I know there are many people who are readers of this dialogue post, whom
never respond or write, some of you may know this gentlemen many of you will
not.

 

Tom Slater a seeker of truth passed away sometime late Monday afternoon.
Tom had been sick for some time and spent the last several days in the
hospital.  Last Friday evening I spoke to one of Tom?s son in laws and the
family was aware of his condition and knew that his departure was close at
hand.  

 

I had met Tom about 18 ? 20 years ago.  Our mail had got cross up and I
received some of his mail in my box.   Although, Tom and I lived some 8 to
10 miles from each other.  The interesting point was that the news letter he
was receiving was just like the one I had received several days before and
being familiar with the contents I thought this man might be a seeker and so
a friendship begin.   I remember looking Tom up in the phone book and
calling him up.   We must have talked for 2 hours about our respective
journeys in trying to remove ourselves from the paganism of our Christian
upbringing.   Tom had related he had been attending the First Baptist Church
trying to share what he had been learning and ?they? had had enough?.   He
was recently ?Unchurched?.   Being a retired Marine he understood well the
?left boot?.   In these early days very few people knew of Ephraimites,
Noahides or that there was a truth, a faith to contend for(Jude 3) or an
ancient path to seek out,  Tom Slater was one of those early pioneers.

 

A few weeks later Tom and I met at the Conference being held in Athens Tn.
Tom was known as the loveable ?burley X-Marine? by his family and friends.
Tom will now rest with his bride of over 50 years, Virginia .

 

Jer 6:16 Thus said ????, ?Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old
paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves. 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/f7db0017/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 14:59:26 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:59:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtEaWFsb2d1ZV0gRmluYW5jaWFsIENyaXNpc+KAlFNwaXJpdHVhbCBP?=
	=?utf-8?B?cHBvcnR1bml0eT8=?=
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com><COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com>
	<9BEBFF3665E04C1CB40675D8D2BD6EDC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <714905.37484.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Sorry Betty...I did not know that you were in that predicament...somehow I missed that...last I remember...seems like Roger had went to work for Countrywide last summer, if I remember right. Will add you to the prayer list!!


Tracy



________________________________
From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:00:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

 
Oh Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this
news.  I can certainly relate, and will join Pat and Tracy and the others in
prayer for you, as Roger and I lost our jobs back in November and so far haven?t
found anything.  May HaShem go before you and provide you and your daughters
with all your needs, including the financial means you need to make aliyah and
live in the Land!  Hang in there.  It will be okay.  I am sure there is a job
just ?waiting? for you to fill it. 
 
Much, much love and prayers,
 
Elisheva/Betty
 

________________________________
 
From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009
12:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial
Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?
 
Hey Pat,
 
     Thank you so much for your kind words of
encouragement and support, they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With
G-d's help) it will all work out...
 
                           Hanoch
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hanoch,
 
I so hope that your
new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem make a way where
there (seemingly) is no way!
 
Thank YOU for everything you do for all of us,
 
Pat         
 
From:YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent:Wednesday, February
04, 2009 8:24 AM
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject:Re:
[Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?
 
Thanks Tracy - 
 
     You're the
best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something bizarre like
that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this morning when I
had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.   
They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent,
food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities
that I have not realized or understood, yet.
 
      
Thanks for everything bro,
                    Hanoch
 
In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M.
Pacific Standard Time, tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:
Hey Hanoch,
Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
Tracy
 

________________________________
 
From:Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009
10:20:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial
Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?
Hey Cody - 
 
    I read this post with
great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today,
along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With
G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get
another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).
 
     So maybe the
reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.' 
I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
 
     Take care,
          Hanoch
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody
oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:
Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need
to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the
twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel )
to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert,
surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their
material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in
study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that
consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the
real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for
most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its
rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved:
to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by
those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in
the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat,"
says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters.
There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in
his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920):
"Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves
inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine
sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many
waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its
chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of
financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming
"rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's
inherent love for G?d.
The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity.
Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of
mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom
mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes
a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly
between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus
on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their
lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an
obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul
cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks
G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in
the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most
primordial source of all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains
the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a
glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of
creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with
"many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the
Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the
days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that
surround "the Ark ,"
the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the
waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty
days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified
the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah.
The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means
"tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying
agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they
present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost
capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of
prayer and study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it
is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only
through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech,
one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that
challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural
to it.
This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison
d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are
brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the
mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same
spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent
of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since
abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of
darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.
Numbers 13:32.
2.
This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also
contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by
merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through
the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in
water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is
because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see
Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.
Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
4.
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
5.
See Genesis 7:17.
6.
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic
formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--




_______________________________________________
 



_______________________________________________
 

________________________________
 
Stay up
to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 

________________________________
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/bb704828/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb  4 16:43:31 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:43:31 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=E2=80=94?=
	=?utf-8?Q?Spiritual_Opportunity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <714905.37484.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com><COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl><855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com><9BEBFF3665E04C1CB40675D8D2BD6EDC@bettylaptop>
	<714905.37484.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AE6D31CD3BFF426080647C4E659EA89F@bettylaptop>

Thank you, Tracy.  Yes, your memory is correct.  Roger did go to work for Countrywide last summer and worked there for 3 months, but his heart couldn?t stand the stress, so he left on good terms, having fulfilled his ?trial? period. After that we both got hired for another company for some temporary insurance catastrophe work, where we worked for about 6 weeks.  Other than my substitute teaching  I will probably have some substitute teaching opportunities come up in the next few weeks, which will only be a ?drop in the bucket,? but a little drop is better than empty!  We are continuing our search and not giving up!

We really do appreciate your prayers on the part of both of us, Tracy.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:59 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

 

Sorry Betty...I did not know that you were in that predicament...somehow I missed that...last I remember...seems like Roger had went to work for Countrywide last summer, if I remember right. Will add you to the prayer list!!


Tracy

  _____  

From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:00:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?

Oh Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this news.  I can certainly relate, and will join Pat and Tracy and the others in prayer for you, as Roger and I lost our jobs back in November and so far haven?t found anything.  May HaShem go before you and provide you and your daughters with all your needs, including the financial means you need to make aliyah and live in the Land!  Hang in there.  It will be okay.  I am sure there is a job just ?waiting? for you to fill it. 

 

Much, much love and prayers,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?

 

Hey Pat,

 

     Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement and support, they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help) it will all work out...

 

                           Hanoch

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hanoch,

 

I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!

 

Thank YOU for everything you do for all of us,

 

Pat         

 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?

 

Thanks Tracy - 

 

     You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.    They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent, food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities that I have not realized or understood, yet.

 

       Thanks for everything bro,

                    Hanoch

 

In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:

Hey Hanoch,
Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
Tracy

 


  _____  


From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?

Hey Cody - 

 

    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).

 

     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.

 

     Take care,

           Hanoch

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity ?


By Yosef Marcus

One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel ) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
(Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist?let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen?but a head in boots??")
But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
Many Waters
Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G?d.
The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
Soul Root
The love of G?d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G?d to show him "His glory," G?d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
So when G?d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G?d's essence?the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
To The Contrary
The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark ," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"?peace to the worlds.
So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study?they uplift it.5
For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"?their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness?."6
FOOTNOTES
1.
Numbers 13:32.
2.
This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
3.
Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
4.
A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
5.
See Genesis 7:17.
6.
Torah Or, Noach.
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--




_______________________________________________

 




_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022> . 

  _____  

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/f1b7aadc/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 19:01:03 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:01:03 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!
Message-ID: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>

This is my grandson Asher singing on YouTube.  The song was actually  
performed for his other grandfather (Kathryn's dad) who lives in Pennsylvania,  but I 
enjoyed it too. They are coming over for dinner tonight.
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to 
stocks and so much more. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/a66d1fb6/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Ty Nichols <tn9186 at gmail.com>
Subject: YouTube!
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:07:48 -0600
Size: 2486
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/a66d1fb6/attachment.mht 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Wed Feb  4 19:27:51 2009
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 19:27:51 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>
References: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <662D1099056647D8A1DD21E31998476E@sherryPC>

Shalom Ross,
How precious! Asher has grown so much since I've last seen him. Has it been that long? He looks more like Ty now.I think he may have inherited the "musical " gene too. This video is a classic that I'm sure you and Bridget will cherish in the years ahead.I hope you can make a copy and save it.Thanks for sharing it with us.
Love and blessings for your whole family,
Sherry 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: RNDAVAR at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:01 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!


  This is my grandson Asher singing on YouTube.  The song was actually performed for his other grandfather (Kathryn's dad) who lives in Pennsylvania, but I enjoyed it too. They are coming over for dinner tonight.

  Shalom, Ross

  Ross K. Nichols 
  www.RootsofFaith.org




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1934 - Release Date: 2/4/2009 8:24 AM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/cdf20494/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 19:34:14 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:34:14 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>
References: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902041734h3863830ew644cb08b8e25e351@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Ross -

     He's adorable!  Very, very cute - we have to make sure to include him
on the Ephramite musical recordings, don't you think?  :-)

           *   Hanoch
*
2009/2/4 <RNDAVAR at aol.com>

>  This is my grandson Asher singing on YouTube.  The song was actually
> performed for his other grandfather (Kathryn's dad) who lives in
> Pennsylvania, but I enjoyed it too. They are coming over for dinner tonight.
>
> Shalom, Ross
>
> *Ross K. Nichols *
> www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so
> much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022>.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ty Nichols <tn9186 at gmail.com>
> To: bridgetnic at aol.com, rndavar at aol.com, redhededprncess at aol.com
> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:07:48 -0600
> Subject: YouTube!
>
> Hey,
>
> Here's a link to Asher's YouTube video. Enjoy!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5LrH4d7Ws
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/9c058afd/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 19:59:41 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:59:41 -0800
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=97Spiritual_Opportun?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?ity=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <AE6D31CD3BFF426080647C4E659EA89F@bettylaptop>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com>
	<COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com>
	<9BEBFF3665E04C1CB40675D8D2BD6EDC@bettylaptop>
	<714905.37484.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<AE6D31CD3BFF426080647C4E659EA89F@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <855590370902041759m231153f5m235b44a23de2ab66@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Betty -

    Still praying and sending lots of 'good vibes' your way!  :-)
       * Hanoch
*
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>  Thank you, Tracy.  Yes, your memory is correct.  Roger did go to work for
> Countrywide last summer and worked there for 3 months, but his heart
> couldn't stand the stress, so he left on good terms, having fulfilled his
> "trial" period. After that we both got hired for another company for some
> temporary insurance catastrophe work, where we worked for about 6 weeks.
> Other than my substitute teaching  I will probably have some substitute
> teaching opportunities come up in the next few weeks, which will only be a
> "drop in the bucket," but a little drop is better than empty!  We are
> continuing our search and not giving up!
>
> We really do appreciate your prayers on the part of both of us, Tracy.
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Tracy Osborne
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:59 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>
>
>
> Sorry Betty...I did not know that you were in that predicament...somehow I
> missed that...last I remember...seems like Roger had went to work for
> Countrywide last summer, if I remember right. Will add you to the prayer
> list!!
>
>
> Tracy
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:00:40 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>
> Oh Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this news.  I can certainly relate, and
> will join Pat and Tracy and the others in prayer for you, as Roger and I
> lost our jobs back in November and so far haven't found anything.  May
> HaShem go before you and provide you and your daughters with all your needs,
> including the financial means you need to make aliyah and live in the Land!
> Hang in there.  It will be okay.  I am sure there is a job just 'waiting'
> for you to fill it.
>
>
>
> Much, much love and prayers,
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:29 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity ?
>
>
>
> Hey Pat,
>
>
>
>      Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement and support,
> they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help) it will all work
> out...
>
>
>
>                          *  Hanoch*
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <
> patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hanoch,
>
>
>
> I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem
> make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!
>
>
>
> Thank *YOU* for everything you do for all of us,
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity ?
>
>
>
> Thanks Tracy -
>
>
>
>      You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something
> bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this
> morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.
> They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent,
> food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities
> that I have not realized or understood, yet.
>
>
>
>        Thanks for everything bro,
>
>                  *   Hanoch*
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:
>
>  Hey Hanoch,
> Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
> Tracy
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity ?
>
> Hey Cody -
>
>
>
>     I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis,
> I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will,
> B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have
> little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is
> horrific).
>
>
>
>      So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a
> 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
>
>
>
>      Take care,
>
>           * Hanoch*
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity ?
>
>
> By Yosef Marcus
>
> One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the
> need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism,
> led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel ) to reject
> the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by
> the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material
> needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study,
> prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its
> inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
> Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the
> real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for
> most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules.
> Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to
> make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by
> those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
> (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved
> in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says
> the Psalmist--let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There
> is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his
> boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920):
> "Feet in boots, I have seen--but a head in boots...?")
> But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves
> inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the
> Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
> Many Waters
> Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many
> waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its
> chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of
> financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly
> streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the
> soul's inherent love for G-d.
> The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual
> clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary
> amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses
> one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that
> never lets up.
> Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He
> describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and
> vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with
> worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
> Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put
> their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds.
> Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
> Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G-d of even such a harassed soul
> cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential
> nature.
> This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
> Soul Root
> The love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses
> asks G-d to show him "His glory," G-d says, "I will place in you in the
> cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial
> source of all of creation.
> The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which
> contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
> So when G-d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving
> a glimpse into the reality closest to G-d's essence--the place where all of
> creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
> The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with
> "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
> To The Contrary
> The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah
> in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.
> These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark
> ," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman
> sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt
> world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them,
> purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up
> a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means
> "tranquility"--peace to the worlds.
> So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they
> purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and
> darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its
> innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark"
> of prayer and study--they uplift it.5
> For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane,
> it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place.
> Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a
> mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters"
> that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is
> natural to it.
> This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"--their raison d'?tre.
> They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought
> into being to achieve the very opposite.
> Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the
> mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the
> same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in
> the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even
> greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge
> of darkness...."6
> FOOTNOTES
> 1.
> Numbers 13:32.
> 2.
> This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also
> contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by
> merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited
> through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place
> the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the
> rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire
> itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
> 3.
> Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
> 4.
> A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
> 5.
> See Genesis 7:17.
> 6.
> Torah Or, Noach.
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula,
> no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so
> much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022>.
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/1cd6874c/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb  4 20:07:04 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:07:04 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902041734h3863830ew644cb08b8e25e351@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd3.4cf77d7f.36bb944f@aol.com>
	<855590370902041734h3863830ew644cb08b8e25e351@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46939CD5366D40EAA4A1601DE0730A5B@bettylaptop>

Ross. Too, too cute!  He is absolutely precious, adorable!  What a smile and
personality!  You are indeed blessed, Zaide!

 

Love,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!

 

Hey Ross - 

 

     He's adorable!  Very, very cute - we have to make sure to include him
on the Ephramite musical recordings, don't you think?  :-)

 

              Hanoch

2009/2/4 <RNDAVAR at aol.com>

This is my grandson Asher singing on YouTube.  The song was actually
performed for his other grandfather (Kathryn's dad) who lives in
Pennsylvania, but I enjoyed it too. They are coming over for dinner tonight.

 

Shalom, Ross

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 

 

  _____  

Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so
much more <http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022> .



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ty Nichols <tn9186 at gmail.com>
To: bridgetnic at aol.com, rndavar at aol.com, redhededprncess at aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:07:48 -0600
Subject: YouTube!

 

Hey,

 

Here's a link to Asher's YouTube video. Enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5LrH4d7Ws


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/699d33fb/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 20:16:22 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 21:16:22 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis-Spiritual_Opportunit?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?y=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <855590370902041759m231153f5m235b44a23de2ab66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c2f.4acdab64.36baf104@aol.com><COL119-DS13A211C75A58C0802DA1ACBAC30@phx.gbl><855590370902041028m8dd14c4vf10f86ea746dfa08@mail.gmail.com><9BEBFF3665E04C1CB40675D8D2BD6EDC@bettylaptop><714905.37484.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com><AE6D31CD3BFF426080647C4E659EA89F@bettylaptop>
	<855590370902041759m231153f5m235b44a23de2ab66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS93A737C40A74AE0A647F1BAC00@phx.gbl>

Yes, Betty, am praying for Roger and for you, Dear One.  Was praying for Roger a little earlier this evening.  I just want you to know that when I read your emails they are like soothing, healing, warm oil.

Thank you for being you!

Avigail/Pat    


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:59 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?


Hey Betty - 

    Still praying and sending lots of 'good vibes' your way!  :-)
        Hanoch


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

  Thank you, Tracy.  Yes, your memory is correct.  Roger did go to work for Countrywide last summer and worked there for 3 months, but his heart couldn't stand the stress, so he left on good terms, having fulfilled his "trial" period. After that we both got hired for another company for some temporary insurance catastrophe work, where we worked for about 6 weeks.  Other than my substitute teaching  I will probably have some substitute teaching opportunities come up in the next few weeks, which will only be a "drop in the bucket," but a little drop is better than empty!  We are continuing our search and not giving up!

  We really do appreciate your prayers on the part of both of us, Tracy.



  Elisheva/Betty




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:59 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?



  Sorry Betty...I did not know that you were in that predicament...somehow I missed that...last I remember...seems like Roger had went to work for Countrywide last summer, if I remember right. Will add you to the prayer list!!


  Tracy


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:00:40 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?

  Oh Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this news.  I can certainly relate, and will join Pat and Tracy and the others in prayer for you, as Roger and I lost our jobs back in November and so far haven't found anything.  May HaShem go before you and provide you and your daughters with all your needs, including the financial means you need to make aliyah and live in the Land!  Hang in there.  It will be okay.  I am sure there is a job just 'waiting' for you to fill it. 



  Much, much love and prayers,



  Elisheva/Betty




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:29 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity ?



  Hey Pat,



       Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement and support, they're very appreciated.  B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help) it will all work out...



                             Hanoch

  On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  Hanoch,



  I so hope that your new job will be in the Land!  Am praying that HaShem make a way where there (seemingly) is no way!



  Thank YOU for everything you do for all of us,



  Pat         



  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:24 AM

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity ?



  Thanks Tracy - 



       You're the best!  Man, I must sure seem totally pathetic, or something bizarre like that.  The most difficult part of this new 'trial' was this morning when I had to call my daughters and alert them of my new status.    They rely upon me (as to be expected) to help support them - pay the rent, food, that kind of stuff.  May HaShem open my eyes to some opportunities that I have not realized or understood, yet.



         Thanks for everything bro,

                      Hanoch



  In a message dated 2/4/2009 5:15:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, tposborne77 at yahoo.com writes:

    Hey Hanoch,
    Have started a new round of prayers for you!!
    Tracy




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 10:20:19 PM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity ?

    Hey Cody - 



        I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).



         So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.



         Take care,

               Hanoch

    On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

    Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity ?


    By Yosef Marcus

    One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism, led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel ) to reject the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study, prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
    Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules. Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
    (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says the Psalmist-let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920): "Feet in boots, I have seen-but a head in boots.?")
    But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
    Many Waters
    Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the soul's inherent love for G-d.
    The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that never lets up.
    Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
    Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds. Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
    Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential nature.
    This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
    Soul Root
    The love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses asks G-d to show him "His glory," G-d says, "I will place in you in the cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial source of all of creation.
    The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
    So when G-d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G-d's essence-the place where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
    The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
    To The Contrary
    The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah. These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the Ark ," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them, purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means "tranquility"-peace to the worlds.
    So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark" of prayer and study-they uplift it.5
    For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane, it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place. Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters" that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is natural to it.
    This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"-their raison d'?tre. They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought into being to achieve the very opposite.
    Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge of darkness.."6
    FOOTNOTES
    1.
    Numbers 13:32.
    2.
    This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
    3.
    Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
    4.
    A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
    5.
    See Genesis 7:17.
    6.
    Torah Or, Noach.
    "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
    --JFK--




    _______________________________________________






    _______________________________________________




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________


  _______________________________________________






  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/d4df9648/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 20:27:28 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 21:27:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for the Album!
Message-ID: <52061F70-C981-427D-B1C5-C58BF2D3991C@earthlink.net>

Thanks to Tracy Osborne for his lovely, powerful, and amazing CD that  
he sent me today. Yes, I am writing the Dialogue list as I hope this  
music might be something he can or has made available to all. I have  
been listening to it all day driving back and forth in town.

Thanks Tracy! And I am glad you have benefited from my book, Restoring  
Abrahamic Faith.

James Tabor


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/ab871f9c/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 21:12:58 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 19:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for the Album!
References: <52061F70-C981-427D-B1C5-C58BF2D3991C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <521316.93831.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Shalom James!! 

Thanks for kind remarks...it's great to know you enjoyed
the CD. I enjoyed reading your book also. If all of the Christian world
could simply arrive at the major points contained in your book, we
would be way down the road to a real transformation in the world.

Blessings,
Tracy 



________________________________
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 9:27:28 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for the Album!

Thanks to Tracy Osborne for his lovely, powerful, and amazing CD that he sent me today. Yes, I am writing the Dialogue list as I hope this music might be something he can or has made available to all. I have been listening to it all day driving back and forth in town. 

Thanks Tracy! And I am glad you have benefited from my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith.

James Tabor


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/6e000582/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 22:05:28 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:05:28 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for the Album!
In-Reply-To: <52061F70-C981-427D-B1C5-C58BF2D3991C@earthlink.net>
References: <52061F70-C981-427D-B1C5-C58BF2D3991C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <855590370902042005gd582a4ya90c5880185608a3@mail.gmail.com>

Tracy's CD is GREAT!  I love the one I have, *and* the heart and message
behind each song.  Keep 'em coming!  :-)

                * Hanoch
*
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 6:27 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Thanks to Tracy Osborne for his lovely, powerful, and amazing CD that he
> sent me today. Yes, I am writing the Dialogue list as I hope this music
> might be something he can or has made available to all. I have been
> listening to it all day driving back and forth in town.
> Thanks Tracy! And I am glad you have benefited from my book, *Restoring
> Abrahamic Faith*.
>
> James Tabor
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090204/00bd8f16/attachment.html 

From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 22:14:55 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:14:55 +1100
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis? Spiritual Opportunity?
Message-ID: <BLU108-DS4B69A841B59FE8F66A830C8C00@phx.gbl>

Hanoch - I'm very sorry to hear about the job problems, my heart goes out to you.  We haven't been immune here in Australia to the problems with the economy.  I lost my job because of the financial crisis just before Christmas and so far haven't found anything.  It would be wonderful and a great blessing if you are able to find opportunity in Israel. I dearly hope and pray you get that chance.  Catherine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/fb20678b/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 01:17:49 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:17:49 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]]
Message-ID: <498A929D.3060500@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/9c2b1154/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:15:20 -0500
Size: 72503
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/9c2b1154/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 01:35:28 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:35:28 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Muslims?]
Message-ID: <498A96C0.9000100@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/78f62e30/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Muslims?
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:58:24 -0800 (PST)
Size: 21822
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/78f62e30/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 01:55:14 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:55:14 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!]
Message-ID: <498A9B62.7050204@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/871a9734/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: YouTube!
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:01:03 EST
Size: 8089
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/871a9734/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 02:08:59 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:08:59 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Letter to the UN SG Hamas Leaders to International Trial
	Petition
Message-ID: <498A9E9B.4090909@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/c6c7256b/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 02:29:15 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:29:15 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Financial =?windows-1252?Q?Crisis=97Spiritu?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?al_Opportunity=3F=5D?=
Message-ID: <498AA35B.4020103@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/492c2253/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=97Spiritual_Opportun?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?ity=3F?=
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:20:19 -0800
Size: 20804
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/492c2253/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 03:15:06 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:15:06 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR HA MASHIACH.
Message-ID: <498AAE1A.9040000@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/a34cd675/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 03:41:02 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:41:02 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Michael J. Totten: A Minority Report from the West Bank
	and Gaza
Message-ID: <498AB42E.7030402@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/7c0942f6/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 07:22:29 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:22:29 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis? Spiritual Opportunity?
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS4B69A841B59FE8F66A830C8C00@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS4B69A841B59FE8F66A830C8C00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902050522y5347c45and5070bf31f015970@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Catherine,

    Thank you so much for your encouraging note, it's very appreciated.  I
would like to wish you HaShem's (G-d's) blessings for you to find the right
opportunity for your talents and abilities.

     B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), I will be joining my daughters in
Israel in September.  Job or no job, it's long overdue, and I have wandered
in the desert for far too long....

     Thank you again for your kind email, and your prayers.  And mine are
with you!

      Best regards,
               *Hanoch*

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Catherine Cashmore
<chcashmore at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Hanoch - I'm very sorry to hear about the job problems, my heart goes out
> to you.  We haven't been immune here in Australia to the problems with the
> economy.  I lost my job because of the financial crisis just before
> Christmas and so far haven't found anything.  It would be wonderful and a
> great blessing if you are able to find opportunity in Israel. I dearly hope
> and pray you get that chance.  Catherine
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/a4d02398/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 07:31:03 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:31:03 -0800
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BFwd=3A_Re=3A_=5BDialogue=5D_Financial_Crisis=97Spiritua?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?l_Opportunity=3F=5D?=
In-Reply-To: <498AA35B.4020103@westnet.com.au>
References: <498AA35B.4020103@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370902050531v22506f87r1a3cd00f81abb2d5@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Achi,

     Thanks for your encouragement, mate - I can always count on you!  It's
interesting that you quoted: " the darkest part of the night is just before
the dawn"  - my mother (Of Blessed Memory) always used that expression...it
brings back such wonderful memories of her.

       She led an extraordinarily difficult life, making my 'issues' seem
like a walk in the park in comparison.  She too, would have pointed to the
goal - Israel, and would have reminded me, that I was talking about 7
months, ONLY.

        G-d willing, there is much I can do and contribute between now and
then.  I turn to HaShem for HIS strength, and HIS guidance.

         And when I'm in Israel, you can count on the report being, "..the
Land is good.."    :-)

          B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),
             *  Hanoch*





On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Hanoch,
>
> As the famous rabbinic saying goes " the darkest part of the night is just
> before the dawn"
>
> Without a question HaShem is preparing a glorious sunrise for you in Eretz
> Yisrael, together with Kyra and Ayala.
> Your future is with the beloved nation of Yisrael.
>
> The challenge is the grapes of Eschol versus the giants in the land.
> My hope is for giant grapes *:-)
> *
> I will do all that I can to encourage and support you all the way. B'Ezrat
> HaShem.
>
> Oddly enough these challenges seem to materialize when we are at the cusp
> of a defining moment of change in our lives.
> As we pass through them we are strengthened and propelled into the world
> that awaits on the other side.
>
> May HaShem's Will for you be fulfilled in all its aspects.
>
> Hang in there Achi. HaShem is with you.
>
> B' Ahavat Yehudah v'Yisrael
> JOE.
> *
>
> Hey Cody -
>
>     I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis,
> I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will,
> B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have
> little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is
> horrific).
>
>      So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a
> 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
>
>      Take care,
>           * Hanoch
> *
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM, cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Financial Crisis--Spiritual Opportunity?
>>
>>
>> By Yosef Marcus
>>
>> One of the greatest obstacles to living a spiritually oriented life is the
>> need to earn a living. It was this concern that, according to Chassidism,
>> led the twelve spies (sent by Moses to scout the Land of Israel) to reject
>> the Land promised to them. They preferred life in the desert, surrounded by
>> the clouds of glory, the manna and the well of Miriam, where their material
>> needs were attended to and where they could spend their entire day in study,
>> prayer and meditation. They did not wish to enter a "land that consumes its
>> inhabitants"1 with its earthly concerns.
>> Can the Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the
>> real world"?To remain in a spiritual heaven, however, is not an option for
>> most of us. The average person must "enter the land" and live by its rules.
>> Indeed, it is through this entry that the goal of creation is achieved: to
>> make the mundane world a place of Divinity. This goal cannot be achieved by
>> those who spend their days in isolation from material existence.
>> (Nevertheless, the Torah encourages us to remain aloof even while involved
>> in the pursuit of a livelihood: "The work of your hands shall you eat," says
>> the Psalmist--let your mind and heart remain free for loftier matters. There
>> is the famous story about the chassid who had become overly involved in his
>> boot business. He was told by Rabbi Shalom DovBer of Lubavitch (1860-1920):
>> "Feet in boots, I have seen--but a head in boots...?")
>> But many of us are bothered by material worries. We often find ourselves
>> inundated with worldly concerns. Are we then spiritually lost? Can the
>> Divine sensibilities of our souls survive the onslaught of "the real world"?
>> Many Waters
>> Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi cites King Solomon's Song of Songs: "Many
>> waters cannot extinguish the love, and rivers cannot wash it away." In its
>> chassidic interpretation, this verse speaks of the "many waters" of
>> financial worries that wash over the soul. It tells of the constantly
>> streaming "rivers" of mundane thoughts that threaten to extinguish the
>> soul's inherent love for G-d.
>> The verse is obviously not discussing one who has achieved spiritual
>> clarity. Nor does it refer to one who maintains the healthy and necessary
>> amount of mental involvement in worldly affairs. Rather, the verse discusses
>> one for whom mundane worries are like a constantly streaming river that
>> never lets up.
>> Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch (1834-1882) elaborates on this syndrome. He
>> describes a person who suffers indecisiveness at every juncture and
>> vacillates endlessly between the options. His mind is thus preoccupied with
>> worries and cannot focus on loftier pursuits.
>> Rabbi Shmuel also points to the phenomenon of those who are liable to put
>> their lives in danger for the sake of finding precious jewels and diamonds.
>> Such an obsession must wreak havoc on the soul.
>> Nevertheless, says the verse, the love of G-d of even such a harassed soul
>> cannot be smothered. It is impervious to the assault on its essential
>> nature.
>> This is because of the soul's lofty origins.
>> Soul Root
>> The love of G-d of even such a harassed soul cannot be smotheredWhen Moses
>> asks G-d to show him "His glory," G-d says, "I will place in you in the
>> cleft of the rock." This rock refers to "The Rock," the most primordial
>> source of all of creation.
>> The metaphor of a rock is employed to allude to the flint stone, which
>> contains the potential for fire, but not the fire itself.2
>> So when G-d places Moses within the Rock that means that Moses is
>> receiving a glimpse into the reality closest to G-d's essence--the place
>> where all of creation exists in its most sublime and undefined form.3
>> The soul, too, derives from this place. Thus even when it is inundated
>> with "many waters," it survives. In fact, it does more than survive.
>> To The Contrary
>> The "many waters" spoken of in Song of Songs, appear earlier in the Torah
>> in the form of the "many waters" that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.
>> These waters, too, are the flood of mundane thoughts that surround "the
>> Ark," the oasis of Torah and prayer of one's day. Yet, Rabbi Schneur Zalman
>> sees the waters of the Flood as more than a punitive tool for a corrupt
>> world. The forty days and nights of "Noah's waters," as Isaiah calls them,
>> purified the world, like the forty seah4 of water that are needed to make up
>> a mikvah. The floodwaters thereby brought noach, which also means
>> "tranquility"--peace to the worlds.
>> So which one is it? Are the waters mundane distractions, or are they
>> purifying agents? The answer is both. For through the challenges and
>> darkness they present, they provide the soul the opportunity to unleash its
>> innermost capacities. The waters of the flood not only do not sink "the ark"
>> of prayer and study--they uplift it.5
>> For as long as the soul is in heaven existing on a purely spiritual plane,
>> it is like an angel, which is called an omed, one that remains in one place.
>> Only through its descent into the body and physical world can it become a
>> mehalech, one that ascends from one level to the next. The "many waters"
>> that challenge the soul also enable it to ascend to a higher level than is
>> natural to it.
>> This in fact is the very purpose of the "many waters"--their raison d'?tre.
>> They therefore cannot extinguish the soul's fire, since they are brought
>> into being to achieve the very opposite.
>> Hence the revolutionary statement of Rabbi Shneur Zalman: "And this is the
>> mistake of businessmen who think that they are incapable of achieving the
>> same spiritual development through prayer as those who spend their days in
>> the 'tent of Torah.' The opposite is the truth: their prayer is even
>> greater, since abundance of light is produced by the presence and challenge
>> of darkness...."6
>> FOOTNOTES
>> 1.
>> Numbers 13:32.
>> 2.
>> This level is one step beyond the level represented by the coal, which
>> also contains fire. But while the fire within the coal can easily be
>> revealed by merely fanning the coal, the fire within the rock can only be
>> elicited through the effort of banging the rock. Furthermore, if one were to
>> place the coal in water, its fire would be extinguished. Not so in the case
>> of the rock. This is because the rock contains the potential for fire, not
>> the fire itself (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5666, pp. 80-1).
>> 3.
>> Likkutei Torah, Acharei 26c.
>> 4.
>> A measure equivalent to approximately 7.3 liters.
>> 5.
>> See Genesis 7:17.
>> 6.
>> Torah Or, Noach.
>> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic
>> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
>> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
>> --JFK--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/154cd03a/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 07:35:15 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:35:15 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "Listen World, Listen Jew"
Message-ID: <855590370902050535n58eaa9bavca8d2534899f2932@mail.gmail.com>

Please check this link -
                           Click here: Listen world, Listen Jew - Eretz
Yisrael Committee <http://eyc.xbuild.com/#/listenworldlistenjew/4532654986>

                  *  Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/5b11a043/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 07:40:20 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:40:20 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fascinating piece written by Tamar Yonah
Message-ID: <855590370902050540v2ad6e032j5562973d1fe2a676@mail.gmail.com>

  Shevat 10, 5769, 2/4/2009
It's Time To Do Some Introspective Workby Tamar Yonah

I have been thinking deeply about the Gazan war and all the pain that comes
from war -on both sides.

We are always being told that 'There is no military solution."  At first, I
scoffed.  But trying to be a better person, I have to be open.

Here are some new photos that I have not seen, that have come out of the
hell-hole of war from various sources. I really realize the pain these Arabs
have had to suffer, all because of their -and our -leaders.  I do not wish
to see people suffer.  It is time to do some serious introspection.  We need
to look within ourselves and see where we have been fooling ourselves, where
we have just 'bought' the stories we are fed from the press.  These
photographs can really make us do introspective work when we see just in
fact what the army has done. Hopefully, it will make us better and more
honest people. Look what the army did in the war.

*Photo 1:*  It is so heart wrenching to see children suffer. This is a photo
of an Arab man with his dead baby after the army bombed.

  *Photo 2:* This is after a bombing on an Arab village.  Try to imagine
being there and seeing your home destroyed by the army.  War really is hell.

  *Photo 3:*  Add to this, 'the occupation'. Let's be fair, it must not be
easy on the Arabs to have to live with the army in their faces, constantly
under watch.

 *Photo 4:*  Imagine having the army stalking your streets, it must be very
hard for the Arabs.  This check point can humiliate people.

*Photo 5:*  An unprofessional camera shot, but it has caught for us the
total despair brought amidst innocent people who are not terrorists.

 *Photo 6:*  This picture has caught the  utter devastation of war.  These
are civilians, and really, shouldn't only military targets be legitimate?

Ok, enough time for introspection.  I have a confession to make. These
photos are NOT what Israel did to anyone.  Actually, these photos are what
the Allied Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq have done to Arabs there.

Photo 1: The correct caption is:  Afghan man cries over the body of his
child killed by U.S. bombs in Kabul.
Photo 2: The correct caption is:  Red Cross Building Destroyed by American
Bombs, Kabul, 26 October 2001
Photo 3: The correct caption is:  One of the local Baghdad police stations,
heavily protected by U.S. troops-2
Photo 4: The correct caption is:  U.S. military at a checkpoint in Baghdad.
(How humiliating!  What apartheid!)
Photo 5:  The correct caption is:  Scud missiles slammed into Israel's
central population areas, courtesy of the Iraqi Arabs.
Photo 6:  The correct caption is:  More scud missiles sent by the Arabs of
Iraq on Israeli civilians.  Notice the Israeli flag flying in the center of
the photo.

When we are bombarded by the International Community with slogans like,
"There is no military solution", remember, all countries throughout history
who found themselves in war, only won those wars by military victories which
crushed the enemy so completely, that they would not have enough nerve,
strength, or ability to attack again.  All through the centuries, the Jewish
People were under the mercy of hostile Governments and Peoples.  We were not
allowed to own a gun, and we were unable to defend ourselves.  Throughout
the centuries, there has ALWAYS been a military solution.  It is only NOW,
when the Jews have guns and can defend themselves, when we have our OWN army
and can defend ourselves,  -that all of a sudden, we are being told there is
no military solution.

Yes, it IS time to do some introspection, but not for Israel.   The U.S.
State Department needs to do some introspection.  The Allied troops who bomb
the heck out of countries thousands of miles away of which they have no
connection to that land - they have to do some introspection when they
justify their acts, yet condemn and admonish Israel for defending our own
land and our own people. It is the media that has to do some introspection
and ask themselves why they are so hard and judgmental on Israel, yet ignore
the crimes and criminals of the Moslem/Arab world as well as their own
armies and what they are sent to do.  And all of us should do some
introspection and ask ourselves why we keep hoping for peace using a formula
that rewards criminals and terrorists, and goes against our holy Torah.
Instead, we should listen to our prophets who tried to teach us:

Isaiah 32:17: "The product of righteousness shall bring peace; and the
effect of righteousness, quiet and security forever."

Don't reward these terrorists.  Mete out justice to them.  Make THEM do some
introspective work.  By punishing those who choose to murder and terrorize,
it will send a message to the rest of their ilk that we, the world, will NOT
suffer their evil acts.  That to live in a safe and peaceful world, those
who do evil must suffer the consequences, and this too will be a deterent to
others thinking about joining their blood thirsty terror groups.  Once
again, we must listen to our Prophets:  "The product of righteousness shall
bring peace; and the effect of righteousness, quiet and security forever."
Let's do some introspective thought on THAT.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/95613831/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 07:47:56 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:47:56 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] For Parshat Beshalach
Message-ID: <855590370902050547wa78aa59x7a84088ca0523d7@mail.gmail.com>

  [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
 Daily
Israel Report
Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
  Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx>
Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live [image:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx>
TV <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
Jukebox<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
Pics <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
Services<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
Advertise<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>


Beshalach: Encouragement Shevat 10, 5769, 04 February 09 12:33
by by Rabbi Shalom Kurz

(IsraelNN.com) *Eretz Yisrael* is mentioned hardly at all in *parshat
Beshalach*, with the exception of a fleeting reference in the story of the
manna and in the conclusion of the poetic *Shirat HaYam*. Yet, the drama of
developing those characteristics necessary for nation-building is very much
the essence of the *parsha*.

The fragile and vulnerable mettle of the people of Israel that we first meet
in *Beshalach* was such that the Lord felt it necessary to choose for them a
meandering path in the desert, rather than the logical route. The logical
route was the direct and short caravan route, but its choosing would have
resulted in the callow nation turning on its heels back to Egypt at its
first encounter with the hostile Philistines.

Later, at the shores of *Yam Suf*, we find a people panicked and nearly
hysterical with fear crying out to Moshe that their backs are to the sea as
the menacing Egyptian horde approaches. Moshe responds: "Stand still and
witness the salvation of the Lord!" But the Almighty's plans deviate from
what Moshe has in mind.

"Why do you cry out to me?" He asks Moshe. "Speak to the children of Israel
that they go forward!"

And the *midrash* amplifies this idea. Nachshon, son of Aminadav of the
tribe of Judah, plunged into the waters and the *Yam Suf* split open. (*
Mechilta*)

The bravery, initiative and sacrifice demonstrated by Nachshon and those who
followed him were but the first steps in developing the mentality of a free
people, able to dedicate themselves to conquering *Eretz Yisrael* and living
up to the responsibilities of the Lord's Torah within that land. Indeed, the
transformation of the slave-mentality into the independence of spirit
necessary to fight a war of conquest could not possibly occur overnight. It
would, in fact, take forty years of tough wilderness conditions to harden
them and teach them the requisite endurance and courage. (Rambam, *Moreh
Nevuchim*)

In the modern period of return from the *Galut* a similar process has had to
transpire. Rabbi Meir Simcha of D'vinsk (known for his commentary *Meshech
Chochmah*) is quoted as having said that after the Balfour Declaration and
after the San Remo Convention, "the fear of the Oaths has disappeared."
Without elaborating here on the Oaths (*Ketubot* 111a), it is clear that his
intention was to highlight that in the modern period, a new spirit had taken
hold within the Jewish people - a willingness to initiate, to struggle
physically for the Land, to fight for it, if necessary even to die for it,
but hopefully to live, to work and to thrive in it.

That spirit inheres in the type of Jew who constantly labors to achieve and
to maintain the delicate but tensile balance between self-reliance and
faith, between "taking the plunge" and trust in *HaShem*, between acceptance
of responsibility and awareness of our dependence on the Almighty.
------------------------------
Rabbi Shalom Kurz is the rabbi of Kehillat Etz Chaim, Bet Shemesh.
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/57e1cc73/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 07:50:21 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:50:21 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]]
In-Reply-To: <498A929D.3060500@westnet.com.au>
References: <498A929D.3060500@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <742A977A-E9AE-49B3-957F-53F20307F68B@earthlink.net>

Thanks Joe. I know very little of such things myself. The best part of  
your post, in my view, was the quote from Joel--who is a reliable  
source, right! Fascinating passage indeed.

In the meantime I checked with one of our senior Islamic studies  
program professors here at UNC Charlotte on Mr. Taheri and it turns  
out he is a truly discredited searcher based on multiple reliable  
sources. She also told me this Forbes thing is circulating all over  
and has been labeled a typical internet scam/hoax.

See this link for much more:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Amir_Taheri

Take care and early Shabbat Shalom!

James


On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

> Shalom James,
>
> looks like my short foray into Islamic eschatology is over :-)
> I never really wanted a career in this field anyhow.
>
> So I retract the section of the article concerning Amir Tahiri. My  
> apologies .
> However I stand behind all the other relevant information contained  
> in my two posts.
> Not that I am looking for a career in this field either :-)
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah,
> JOE
>
>
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Date: February 3, 2009 7:15:20 PM EST
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...]
> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I am not questioning your sincerity or your dedication to HaShem. My  
> caution was just that we not circulate things that are untrue. I can  
> tell you, absolutely, that quote is bogus. You can actually tell by  
> the sound of it, but if you check with any expert you will find what  
> I say is so. This is covered on many Web sites.
>
> Best,
>
> James
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Joe Indomenico wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> From:James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>> Date:February 3, 2009 12:48:09 PM EST
>> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Cc:rknichol at gapac.com
>> Subject:Re: [Dialogue] O Ba Ma: A Cautionary Note...
>> Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>>
>> Dear Joe and all,
>>
>> No matter what one thinks of our current President I would caution  
>> everyone to be very careful of spreading these kinds of stories and  
>> believing anything that is circulated on the internet. I have  
>> learned myself, through bitter experience, how absolutely deadly a  
>> medium this can be, as outright lies and rumors were widely  
>> circulated about me in 2006 after I came out in support of the  
>> Talpiot tomb being "possibly" that of Jesus of Nazareth. I could  
>> not believe the things that were said, all false.
>>
>> If you search a bit on the internet you will find that the passage  
>> supposedly quoted in this article by Amir Taheri does not exist.  
>> This is confirmed to me by our faculty here who are trained in  
>> Islamic studies. Further, Mr. Taheri has been largely discredited,  
>> now even by one of his main supporters.
>>
>> Seehttp://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/forbes-pulls-article-on-obama-as-warrior-for-hidden-imam/for 
>>  some of the beginning references.
>>
>> Love him, hate him, but no matter what, deal only according to the  
>> strictest high standards of truth and verification as taught by our  
>> Torah. Receiving something via an e-mail or reading it on a Web  
>> site or Blog does not make it true.
>>
>> James Tabor
>>
>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/4cbd9e53/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 08:09:43 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 06:09:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] For the Temple Mount
Message-ID: <855590370902050609v1ac118fbx3fd5f881de2aca@mail.gmail.com>

On behalf of the Temple Mount, please read:
Click here: Temple Mount Campaign - Eretz Yisrael
Committee<http://eyc.xbuild.com/#/templemountcampaign/4532665400>

             *     Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/96f0dd0e/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 08:19:49 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 06:19:49 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Israeli Election Update
Message-ID: <855590370902050619j42c34166gc4a736143e046543@mail.gmail.com>

Hmmm....I wonder what a Likud/Labor government will do?  I bet YOU know!
             *Hanoch*

Five days to Israel's poll: Frontrunner Netanyahu is slipping

*DEBKAfile* Special Analysis

February 5, 2009

The man certain to form the next Israeli government after the general
election of Feb. 10, Likud's Binyamin Netanyahu, started out with a handy
lead of well over 30 Knesset seats (out of 120). But his campaign blunders
are eroding this lead to below 30. The deserters are swinging over to
Avigdor Lieberman's right-wing Israel Beitenu which is now polling 20 and
still counting.

In a campaign dominated by personalities and security concerns, Netanyahu's
big mistake is his apparent choice of the unpopular Labor leader, Ehud
Barak, to carry on as defense minister in the next government. His second is
his refusal to name a finance minister for a country worried sick by the
slide into serious recession and growing unemployment.

If the voter had wanted Barak, it would have showed its support for Labor,
which has slipped to an all-time low of 13. By linking his Likud to Labor,
Netanyahu will reach his second term as prime minister from a position of
weakness rather than the strength he started out with.

On Dec. 13, 2008, at the outset of the campaign, *DEBKAfile* analysts
advised the Likud leader to hurry up and squash the rumors of his carryover
deal with Barak and name a shadow cabinet offering hope of change - or face
losing a chunk of Likud faithful.

The defense minister's policies are widely condemned on at least four
counts:

1. The average, middle-of-the road voter is worried about national security
and therefore leans to the right ? away from Labor. He/she does not buy
Barak's argument that last month's Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in Gaza
restored Israel's deterrence against Hamas and threats from Iran, Syria and
the Lebanese Hizballah. Polling-day falls amid high security alerts on two
potential warfronts, Gaza in the South and Lebanon in the north. The gap
between this fraught situation and claims of restored deterrence equals the
credibility gap faced by Barak and the rest of the incumbent government for
failing to build on a military success.

2. Notwithstanding a succession of letdowns, Barak's persists in tying
Israel's security to Cairo's uncertain good offices instead of letting the
military do its job. The average voter complains that the operation in Gaza
was cut short because Egypt demanded a unilateral Israel ceasefire to open
the door for long-term negotiations with Hamas. Those talks finally crashed
this week.

3. Since Hamas declared a truce on Jan. 19, Palestinian missiles and mortars
have blasted Israel day by day. A roadside bomb killed an Israeli soldier
last Tuesday and, a week later, a long-range Grad rocket exploded in the
center of Ashkelon, a major city.

4. IDF reprisals are carefully restricted by Barak to the aerial bombardment
of empty buildings and sandy expanses in the Gaza Strip. Barak was voted out
as prime minister in 2000 for handling the early days of the Palestinian war
of terror initiated by Yasser Arafat in the same way.

On top of this unpopular alliance, Netanyahu is unclear on his future
policies as head of government. It took him until this week to come out with
an explicit statement on a key security issue, when he said: "Iran will not
acquire nuclear arms. Period. We will resort to whatever means it takes to
prevent this happening."

After US president George W. Bush left office without honoring a similarly
strong pledge, the Israeli voter regards all such promises as empty
electioneering rhetoric, especially if Barak is chosen to execute them.

Netanyahu, furthermore, while promoting his "economic peace" plan the
Palestinians, has never come right out and stated his views on Bush's
two-state solution of the conflict.

A present, the duel between Netanyahu and Lieberman dominates the contest
for votes.

Israeli Beteinu is rising fast and threatens to overtake foreign minister
Tzipi Livni's Kadima.

The hottest subject of speculation five days before the ballot is the price
Israel Beitenu's leader will exact in terms of portfolios and issues for
joining the next government. The further Likud slides by Feb. 10, the higher
the price Netanyahu will have to pay.

Another key coalition partner, the ultra-religious Shas has publicly
committed to joining a Netanyahu-led government. But although the
right-of-center bloc can count on a Knesset majority, the Likud leader will
deny the country stable government if he insists on handing out the key
defense and finance portfolios to figures outside his party and in the
opposite camp for the sake of "a national unity government."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/f781d2b3/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb  5 09:43:16 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:43:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?
In-Reply-To: <855590370902031920s5ef8377fv432ae3ae378eb91f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<855590370902031920s5ef8377fv432ae3ae378eb91f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0a5a01c987a8$7846c850$68d458f0$@com>

Hey Hanoch,

 

I've been behind with the group and just read this. Wow, all this after
being so sick - how are you coping? I guess when a door closes, another one
opens. If this allows you do make Aliyah, thin it is truly a blessing in
disguise. What kind of work do you do?

 

Take Care!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?

 

Hey Cody - 

 

    I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis, I
lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will, B'Ezrat
HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have little to
no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is horrific).

 

     So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a 'spiritual
opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.

 

     Take care,

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/ac467cad/attachment.html 

From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 11:55:38 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:55:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
Message-ID: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Susie


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/700d5761/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Feb  5 12:40:55 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:40:55 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8A85902BC2D74DC694CCA841DDAE0508@bettylaptop>

Hi Susie, this is wonderful about your new friend Kay.  The Sabbath is one
of the key things that "got" to me in my search for truth.and then
everything begin to unravel.that, and the fact that Jesus was Jewish.I will
certainly begin praying for your friend Kay that she will know the G-d of
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Baruch HaShem, and thanks so much for sharing
with us!

 

Love & blessings,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:56 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay

 


Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends
a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we
had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women
accepted the invitation and attended last evening.

The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion
mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the
discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was
calm and tears were running down her cheeks.

At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently
returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an
overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to
be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the
look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!

Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Susie

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/33baedd1/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 13:05:36 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:05:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902051105v45e6eaf3pdbd86b9765170692@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Susie,

    Wow...whenever I hear stories like this I get goose bump!  Things like
this continue to enrich my own living, and Shabbat experiences.  There is no
doubt that HaShem is calling ALL of HIS children home...

     Best regards,
                    *  Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:55 PM, susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She
> attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach
> and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three
> women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
> The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion
> mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the
> discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was
> calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
> At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently
> returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an
> overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to
> be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the
> look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
> Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
> Susie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/cfadc09e/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Feb  5 13:18:04 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:18:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX
Message-ID: <001801c987c6$798e8ef0$0400a8c0@marvin>

I am going to be in the great state of Texas.   When I say that, I always
think about the famous quote of Davey Crocket went he got booted from
Tennessee politics.    At any rate, is there anyone out there within an hour
or so of Texarkana.   If so and you might be up for fellowship in the next
days drop me a line, off line at my box: mhyde7 at tds.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/9bb05078/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb  5 13:44:06 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:44:06 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX
In-Reply-To: <001801c987c6$798e8ef0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <020520091944.848.498B41860006F4AE0000035022216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Marvin,

You'll be about 5 or 6 hours away from us.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>: -------------- 


I am going to be in the great state of Texas.   When I say that, I always think about the famous quote of Davey Crocket went he got booted from Tennessee politics.    At any rate, is there anyone out there within an hour or so of Texarkana.   If so and you might be up for fellowship in the next days drop me a line, off line at my box: mhyde7 at tds.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/2fb8d702/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Thu Feb  5 13:54:40 2009
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:54:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D6138A4A25A04081B716552C14DFE362@Beeblebrox>

Shalom Susie and All,

I was thinking about Kay and her friends when I read this message from "A Fire Burns In Breslov".  Many of us can recall how that small spark within us was fanned into flame.  Often our encounter with the 'bellows' has come from places and circumstances where we least expected it.   B"H for such great mercy!  
I will pray for her, that these first small steps will be protected and that she and the others will find that ancient path like so many before who have been 'ignited'.   May we all become 'roaring flames'.

Thanks for sharing the story - it is uplifting.
Sharon


            A Fire Burns In Breslov 
      Igniting the Spark Within 

      Posted: 04 Feb 2009 05:35 PM CST

      The halacha is that on Yom Tov, one may not move an animal that has died. Chazal taught us that a materialistic person is compared to an animal, and they also said that the wicked are considered dead even during their lifetimes. This is because they do not move forward spiritually or morally. A "dead animal" of this kind who doesn't even feel a spark of life or inspiration on Yom Tov cannot be moved by anything short of a miracle.
      A group of maskilim once approached the famous Dubno Maggid, zt"l, with a strange request. "We would like to invite you to lecture to us, provided that you promise that you won't lace your storytelling with mussar. We aren't interested in that; we just want to hear a good tale."
      The Maggid heard them out and offered them a parable right then and there. "Once, a man from a small town visited the city for the first time. He saw many things that astonished him, but nothing came close to the wondrous device that the blacksmith used to keep his fires burning bright. The man had never seen a bellows before, and the fantastic apparatus seemed to manufacture fire from nothing at all.
      He said to himself, "Such a device could save me so much time! I must get one!"
      He bought a bellows off the blacksmith for what seemed a ridiculously low price and brought it back proudly to his little town. He summoned everyone to the middle of the town to demonstrate the magical power of his new acquisition. To his dismay and great shame, however, the bellows would make fire at all-it only blew air!
      The simple man returned to the smith fuming with indignation. "How could you sell me this fire-maker when you knew full well that it doesn't work?"
      "What 'fire-maker?' This is just a bellows-everyone knows that it blows air that fans a spark into a flame. Am I to blame if you don't know the simplest truth? If you want a fire, you need a spark!"
      The Maggid thundered, "And you maskilim are exactly the same! A story is just like a bellows. Unless you have a spark of willingness to change, there is no moving you at all!"
      But when Rav Nosson of Breslov heard this story he said: " Even the worst Maskilim actually do have a small spark within that can be fanned into a roaring flame. But one must know how to reach it..." 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: susie getskow 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:55 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay


        Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
        The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
        At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
        Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
        Susie 




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/e50adbe7/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Feb  5 14:15:17 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:15:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX
In-Reply-To: <020520091944.848.498B41860006F4AE0000035022216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <001801c987c6$798e8ef0$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<020520091944.848.498B41860006F4AE0000035022216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <003801c987ce$77ffdf00$0400a8c0@marvin>

John, 

 

My window is only like 6 or 8 hours total so I think that will be out my
range.  You gotta look at travel time plus talk time.  I looked at a
possible sneak over to St. Francis, but just too far. 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX

 

Hey Marvin,

 

You'll be about 5 or 6 hours away from us.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>:
-------------- 

I am going to be in the great state of Texas.   When I say that, I always
think about the famous quote of Davey Crocket went he got booted from
Tennessee politics.    At any rate, is there anyone out there within an hour
or so of Texarkana.   If so and you might be up for fellowship in the next
days drop me a line, off line at my box: mhyde7 at tds.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/c09adc3a/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb  5 14:31:09 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:31:09 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX
In-Reply-To: <003801c987ce$77ffdf00$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <001801c987c6$798e8ef0$0400a8c0@marvin><020520091944.848.498B41860006F4AE0000035022216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<003801c987ce$77ffdf00$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <020520092031.5253.498B4C8C00027C9E0000148522218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Ah well.  You gonna be in Charlotte this April?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>: -------------- 


John, 
 
My window is only like 6 or 8 hours total so I think that will be out my range.  You gotta look at travel time plus talk time.  I looked at a possible sneak over to St. Francis, but just too far. 
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Texarkana , TX
 
Hey Marvin,
 
You'll be about 5 or 6 hours away from us.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>: -------------- 
I am going to be in the great state of Texas.   When I say that, I always think about the famous quote of Davey Crocket went he got booted from Tennessee politics.    At any rate, is there anyone out there within an hour or so of Texarkana.   If so and you might be up for fellowship in the next days drop me a line, off line at my box: mhyde7 at tds.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/b6b52803/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 14:37:52 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:37:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis = Opportunity
Message-ID: <855590370902051237r102e2834ne0156a3f73666fbe@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom to all,



    In Chinese, the same character is used for both 'Crisis' and
'Opportunity' - almost as if they were two sides of them same coin, which is
how I'm now viewing them.  I wanted to try to update everyone on some
exciting opportunities that I am currently evaluating.  Upon my return from
the hospital recently and that horrific infection in my leg, which could
have taken my life (or at least, my right leg), I returned to work to find
out that I am being laid off as of next week (due to the financial crisis).


   As most of you know, I am planning, B'Ezrat HaShem (G-d willing) to go on
Aliyah - move to Israel in Mid-September (if I go any sooner, my daughter
Kyra will lose all of her new immigrant rights).  In the 6.5 months between
now and then, I will be juggling a lot to try to continue to support my two
daughters in Israel (anyone who has any advice, BTW - it's more then
welcome!).  But that's not why I'm writing this, please continue to read the
following:

1. For several years numerous people have invited me to *speak/teach* at
their congregations. Due to work responsibilities, needless to say, I have
been unable to accept those invitations.  But now I can!  For the next 6.5
months, I am available; frankly, once I get to Israel, unless there is a
(totally unforeseen at this time) business reason, I have no intention of
coming back to the U.S.  So, if you, or someone you know would like me to
come to their group or congregation and teach/share/study please have them
contact me.  Now is the opportunity, and time is running out.

2.  One of the great skills I have developed, based on a talent that HaShem
has given me, is *Grant* *Writing*.  I have earned my current employer quite
a bit of money based upon Grants that I've written.  So, once again, if you,
or someone you know is interested in a freelance Grant Writer - now is the
time!  There's a sale going on...don't miss out on it!   :-)  Let me know if
you're interested.

   If there's anything else that you think I should be considering, please
give me a shout!

   Thanks, may HaShem bless you always, and may you all have a Shabbat
Shalom,

                               *  Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/a5bb952e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:38:35 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:38:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS99968182C9E782960F401BAC00@phx.gbl>

Just ran in the door and about to leave again.  I read this email and it stopped me in my tracks to pray for this precious lady named Kay.  Thank you so much for telling us her story, Susie.

Love,

Pat


From: susie getskow 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay


      Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
      The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
      At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
      Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
      Susie 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/785903c7/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 16:31:27 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 17:31:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
Message-ID: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com>

  <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>  Daily Israel Report
Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
  Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx>
Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx>
TV<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
Jukebox <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
Pics<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
Services <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
RSS<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
Advertise <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>


Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out Shevat 11,
5769, 05 February 09 06:28
by by Gil Ronen

(IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to respect
the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader Yaakov
"Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely populated
by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector will end
exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he vowed.
"When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown used to
Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over."
  *Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara*
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen

  *Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel*
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen

"The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a small
crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the
Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.

A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam unit,
pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close to the
Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset Member
Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool and
kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request, the
Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where they
gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.
  *Police ask MKs to wrap things up.*
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen

  *Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari*
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen

Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over 3,000
units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was time for
Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses.

"In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a Jew
drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach al-Yahud'
['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This happened in
Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State of Israel.
The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and shout
'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they see
the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."

*Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
*Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the
Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian
corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans
and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements
and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted
him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the
Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted *"Ya Saddam, ya chabib,
udrub udrub Tel Aviv"* [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when Scud
missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.

MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in
Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic
importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and
other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.

The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and
establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize
illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish
building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in
the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's
spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/f037131f/attachment.html 

From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 17:39:58 2009
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:39:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS99968182C9E782960F401BAC00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <234125.85750.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I rarely get involved other than reading everything, but I had to tell you that a Jewish friend told me that half the women in her Synagogue converted from Christianity and are very happy with their decision. And folks, I am praying for your financial needs to be met.
Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Thu, 2/5/09, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 3:38 PM



 
Just ran in the door and about to leave again.? I 
read this email and it stopped me in my tracks to pray for this precious lady 
named Kay.? Thank you so much for telling us her story, Susie.
?
Love,
?
Pat




From: susie getskow 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay



  
  
    
      Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She 
      attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we 
      teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. 
      Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
      The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had 
      discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent 
      during the discussion but you could visually see that they were being 
      affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
      At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I 
      recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an 
      overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted 
      to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had 
      the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
      Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and 
      Jacob.
      Susie




_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/441144cf/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 19:08:41 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:08:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl>

Hope they win, but more importantly, I hope they do what they say.   Chavez and the Arabs sound like a winning combination to me.

Pat 


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


      Daily Israel Report
      Subscribe (free) 
            Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin 
            Radio | Live  TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise 
     




Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out
Shevat 11, 5769, 05 February 09 06:28by by Gil Ronen
(IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to respect the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely populated by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector will end exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he vowed. "When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown used to Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over." 


Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
"The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a small crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.

A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam unit, pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close to the Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset Member Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool and kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request, the Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where they gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.


Police ask MKs to wrap things up.
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari
Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over 3,000 units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was time for Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses. 

"In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a Jew drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach al-Yahud' ['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This happened in Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State of Israel. The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and shout 'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they see the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."

Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted "Ya Saddam, ya chabib, udrub udrub Tel Aviv" [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when Scud missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.

MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.

The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.

www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/52e3c14b/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu Feb  5 19:52:31 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:52:31 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200902060152.n161qSRw026213@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

Susie,

I am putting her on my list... May she and you be all strengthened 
and inspired as to what must be said and done.... sounds like she is 
feeling the tug and pull of the "heart of the fathers," Abraham, 
Isaac and Jacob, ..... (Mal. 3:24, / 4:6).

Steve


At 09:55 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote:
>Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She 
>attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that 
>we teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth 
>weekly study. Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.
>The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had 
>discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely 
>silent during the discussion but you could visually see that they 
>were being affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.
>At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I 
>recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have 
>had an overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian 
>but I wanted to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this 
>meant but Kay had the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!
>Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
>Susie
>
>_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/099b9e79/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb  5 19:56:52 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:56:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] New Website - MESORA
In-Reply-To: <200902060152.n161qSRw026213@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<200902060152.n161qSRw026213@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <0b0801c987fe$301d4f80$9057ee80$@com>

www.mesora.org

 

This website was created as a free, public reference for Judaic study,
including interactive forums for discussions and activism relevant to the
Jewish community. Mesora invites anyone wishing to examine and understand
the ideals of Torah intelligently to freely use our website. We are
non-denominational, meaning, we do not favor an idea based on the supporting
group, but on the rationality and truth contained, and its compliance with
the Jewish fundamentals transmitted by our leaders, such as Maimonides,
Nachmanides, Ibn Ezra, Rashi, Tosafos, and Saadia Gaon.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/3c55ec42/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb  5 20:43:02 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:43:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0b2201c98804$a3dc99c0$eb95cd40$@com>

Shalom Susie,

 

Are you new to this group? What a wonderful story. I would like to suggest
that Kay and perhaps the other women should read Restoring Abrahamic Faith
by James Tabor. You can purchase this book at:
<http://genesis2000.org/order-information/>
http://genesis2000.org/order-information/ . If there is a problem with cost,
I would gladly send you a few copies at no charge.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay

 


Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends
a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we
had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women
accepted the invitation and attended last evening.

The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion
mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the
discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was
calm and tears were running down her cheeks.

At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently
returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an
overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to
be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the
look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!

Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Susie

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/e5f027bb/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 20:55:13 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:55:13 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Pat,

    I only WISH they could, they're a small party at this time...but, G-d
willing they'll grow; they HAVE to - we need some honest, Torah-based
members of the Knesset.

    The only thing  - instead of letting those arabs insult them, they
should have taken their heads off....

      It just so happens that I'm wearing a shirt right at this moment that
says: "No, everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right!"   And it is SO TRUE!

      Best regards,
              *  Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patricia Robbins <
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hope they win, but more importantly, I hope they do what they say.
> Chavez and the Arabs sound like a winning combination to me.
>
> Pat
>  *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:31 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] VERY interesting
>
>   <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>  Daily Israel Report
> Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
>   Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
> Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx> Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
> Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx> Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
> Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/> Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
> Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live
> <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx> TV<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
> Jukebox <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel Pics<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
> Services <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
> RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS> Advertise<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>
>
>
> Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out Shevat
> 11, 5769, 05 February 09 06:28
> by by Gil Ronen
>
> (IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to
> respect the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader
> Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely
> populated by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector
> will end exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he
> vowed. "When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown
> used to Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over."
>   *Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara*
> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>
>   *Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel*
> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>
> "The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a small
> crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the
> Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.
>
> A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam unit,
> pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close to the
> Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset Member
> Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool and
> kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request, the
> Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where they
> gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.
>   *Police ask MKs to wrap things up.*
> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>
>   *Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari*
> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>
> Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over 3,000
> units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was time for
> Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses.
>
> "In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a Jew
> drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach al-Yahud'
> ['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This happened in
> Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State of Israel.
> The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and shout
> 'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they see
> the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."
>
> *Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
> *Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the
> Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian
> corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans
> and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements
> and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted
> him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the
> Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted *"Ya Saddam, ya
> chabib, udrub udrub Tel Aviv"* [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when
> Scud missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.
>
> MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in
> Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic
> importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and
> other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.
>
> The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and
> establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize
> illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish
> building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in
> the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's
> spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.
>  www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
> (c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
> Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/2fc3c667/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:07:03 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:07:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis-Spiritual Opportunity?
In-Reply-To: <0a5a01c987a8$7846c850$68d458f0$@com>
References: <62606.63167.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<855590370902031920s5ef8377fv432ae3ae378eb91f@mail.gmail.com>
	<0a5a01c987a8$7846c850$68d458f0$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370902051907r74341b5br90f5fa3bc05c3659@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty,

   Thanks for your note and your concern.  Frankly, it's a HUGE
challenge/crisis that I am trying to turn into an opportunity.

    There are numerous things that I've wanted to do for the various
Ephramite communities that I've encountered, and maybe, if I can find the
funding, now I can do them.

     The Aliyah plans are going to happen, B'Ezrat HaShem - with G-d's
help.  It's only a little more challenging at this point.  :-)

      But, I went from losing a potentially deadly battle with an infection
that was 'going bad,' only through HIS mercy (and the prayers of so many
people).  And HaShem did it practically overnight.

        It's shocking hearing one day that you have to have your leg sliced
open (and maybe worse), and the possibility of it morphing into flesh-eating
bacteria.  And 1.5 days later talking to the Discharge Nurse about going
home.

        So, it's all in HaShem's hands, I'm just waiting for the signal,
that's all.  And 'coping' really isn't the right word - it's more like
'flowing with the tide,'  LOL

         In terms of work, I'm actually in Operations Management - having
worked primarily in the for profit sector (Johnson & Johnson, Exxon,
PepsiCo).  I've also managed two outpatient departments for hospitals, and
have been in the Jewish not-for-profit arena for over 4 years now.  My
current title is Assistant Executive Director.

        I have two graduate degrees, but that, and a Metro Card get me a
ride on the subway  :-)

         Have a laila tov & a Shabbat Shalom!

                   * Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Hey Hanoch,
>
>
>
> I've been behind with the group and just read this. Wow, all this after
> being so sick ? how are you coping? I guess when a door closes, another one
> opens. If this allows you do make Aliyah, thin it is truly a blessing in
> disguise. What kind of work do you do?
>
>
>
> Take Care!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:20 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis?Spiritual Opportunity?
>
>
>
> Hey Cody -
>
>
>
>     I read this post with great interest.  Thanks to the financial crisis,
> I lost my job today, along with seven of my colleagues.  Since I will,
> B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help), be going on Aliya in September, I have
> little to no chance to get another position here (the job market in NYC is
> horrific).
>
>
>
>      So maybe the reason behind my being laid off is to provide a
> 'spiritual opportunity.'  I sure hope so......thanks for posting it.
>
>
>
>      Take care,
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/0ca3b92e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:07:00 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:07:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS100A8FDD999ABDE185857BBAC10@phx.gbl>

Hanoch,

What would Rabbi Kahane have done if he had been there?  Would he be as free to act today as he was then?  I'm so glad you knew him and he instilled in you his spirit.  Also love the T-shirt you're wearing!

Pat 


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


Hey Pat, 

    I only WISH they could, they're a small party at this time...but, G-d willing they'll grow; they HAVE to - we need some honest, Torah-based members of the Knesset.

    The only thing  - instead of letting those arabs insult them, they should have taken their heads off....

      It just so happens that I'm wearing a shirt right at this moment that says: "No, everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right!"   And it is SO TRUE!

      Best regards,
                Hanoch


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  Hope they win, but more importantly, I hope they do what they say.   Chavez and the Arabs sound like a winning combination to me.

  Pat 


  From: Hanoch Young 
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:31 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


        Daily Israel Report
        Subscribe (free) 
              Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin 
              Radio | Live  TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise 
       




  Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out
  Shevat 11, 5769, 05 February 09 06:28by by Gil Ronen
  (IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to respect the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely populated by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector will end exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he vowed. "When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown used to Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over." 


  Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara
  Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



  Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel
  Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
  "The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a small crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.

  A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam unit, pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close to the Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset Member Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool and kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request, the Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where they gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.


  Police ask MKs to wrap things up.
  Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



  Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari
  Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
  Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over 3,000 units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was time for Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses. 

  "In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a Jew drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach al-Yahud' ['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This happened in Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State of Israel. The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and shout 'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they see the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."

  Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
  Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted "Ya Saddam, ya chabib, udrub udrub Tel Aviv" [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when Scud missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.

  MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.

  The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.

  www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
  Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________




  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/f9b54893/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:13:03 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:13:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS100A8FDD999ABDE185857BBAC10@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS100A8FDD999ABDE185857BBAC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902051913j2f52663u3d36ff74cc956e70@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Pat -

     He would never have allowed those jihadists to insult a Jew in the Land
of Israel, let alone members, or candidates for election. It is a tremendous
Chillul HaShem (literally, an emptying of G-d's presence) - a desecration of
G-d to have let this occur.

      On the other hand, the fact that they at least *went *to this
(temporarily) arab-occupied area is a HUGE step forward.

      You know, I probably shouldn't worry so much about getting a job once
I get to Israel - I'm likely to be in jail a lot, it seems.....  :-)

       Shabbat Shalom Avigail,
              *  Hanoch

*
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Patricia Robbins <
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hanoch,
>
> What would Rabbi Kahane have done if he had been there?  Would he be as
> free to act today as he was then?  I'm so glad you knew him and he instilled
> in you his spirit.  Also love the T-shirt you're wearing!
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:55 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
>
> Hey Pat,
>
>     I only WISH they could, they're a small party at this time...but, G-d
> willing they'll grow; they HAVE to - we need some honest, Torah-based
> members of the Knesset.
>
>     The only thing  - instead of letting those arabs insult them, they
> should have taken their heads off....
>
>       It just so happens that I'm wearing a shirt right at this moment that
> says: "No, everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right!"   And it is SO TRUE!
>
>       Best regards,
>               *  Hanoch
> *
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patricia Robbins <
> patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hope they win, but more importantly, I hope they do what they say.
>> Chavez and the Arabs sound like a winning combination to me.
>>
>> Pat
>>  *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:31 PM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] VERY interesting
>>
>>   <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>  Daily Israel Report
>> Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
>>   Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
>> Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx> Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
>> Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
>> Features <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9> Blogs<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
>> Admin <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>  Radio<http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> |
>> Live <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx> TV<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
>> Jukebox <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
>> Pics <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
>> Services <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
>> RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
>> Advertise <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>
>>
>>
>> Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out Shevat
>> 11, 5769, 05 February 09 06:28
>> by by Gil Ronen
>>
>> (IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to
>> respect the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader
>> Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely
>> populated by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector
>> will end exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he
>> vowed. "When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown
>> used to Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over."
>>   *Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara*
>> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>>
>>   *Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel*
>> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>>
>> "The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a
>> small crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the
>> Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.
>>
>> A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam
>> unit, pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close
>> to the Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset
>> Member Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool
>> and kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request,
>> the Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where
>> they gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.
>>   *Police ask MKs to wrap things up.*
>> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>>
>>   *Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari*
>> Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
>>
>> Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over
>> 3,000 units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was
>> time for Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses.
>>
>> "In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a
>> Jew drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach
>> al-Yahud' ['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This
>> happened in Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State
>> of Israel. The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and
>> shout 'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they
>> see the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."
>>
>> *Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
>> *Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the
>> Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian
>> corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans
>> and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements
>> and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted
>> him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the
>> Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted *"Ya Saddam, ya
>> chabib, udrub udrub Tel Aviv"* [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when
>> Scud missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.
>>
>> MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in
>> Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic
>> importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and
>> other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.
>>
>> The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and
>> establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize
>> illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish
>> building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in
>> the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's
>> spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.
>>  www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
>> (c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
>> Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/6e905b1b/attachment.html 

From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:14:43 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:14:43 +1100
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis? Spiritual Opportunity?
Message-ID: <BLU108-DS5C7C54429D95CE4088904C8C10@phx.gbl>

That's wonderful news Hanoch - if you're in Israel there is no way our hearts can ever be far from you!  I'll pray very strongly that it works out to be a successful and safe journey.  Keep us updated on when you leave and how your preparations go.  We're all here to support you in what ever way we can.  I hope one day I'll be able to follow! What part of Israel will you reside in?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/ab80da65/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:52:50 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:52:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <855590370902051913j2f52663u3d36ff74cc956e70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl><855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS100A8FDD999ABDE185857BBAC10@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902051913j2f52663u3d36ff74cc956e70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS12ACAAF6891813AC53F80BBAC10@phx.gbl>

And to you, Hanoch, Shabbat Shalom.  (I'll bake you a cake with a file in it!)


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:13 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


Hey Pat - 

     He would never have allowed those jihadists to insult a Jew in the Land of Israel, let alone members, or candidates for election. It is a tremendous Chillul HaShem (literally, an emptying of G-d's presence) - a desecration of G-d to have let this occur.

      On the other hand, the fact that they at least went to this (temporarily) arab-occupied area is a HUGE step forward.  

      You know, I probably shouldn't worry so much about getting a job once I get to Israel - I'm likely to be in jail a lot, it seems.....  :-)

       Shabbat Shalom Avigail,
                Hanoch


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  Hanoch,

  What would Rabbi Kahane have done if he had been there?  Would he be as free to act today as he was then?  I'm so glad you knew him and he instilled in you his spirit.  Also love the T-shirt you're wearing!

  Pat 


  From: Hanoch Young 
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:55 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


  Hey Pat, 

      I only WISH they could, they're a small party at this time...but, G-d willing they'll grow; they HAVE to - we need some honest, Torah-based members of the Knesset.

      The only thing  - instead of letting those arabs insult them, they should have taken their heads off....

        It just so happens that I'm wearing a shirt right at this moment that says: "No, everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right!"   And it is SO TRUE!

        Best regards,
                  Hanoch


  On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

    Hope they win, but more importantly, I hope they do what they say.   Chavez and the Arabs sound like a winning combination to me.

    Pat 


    From: Hanoch Young 
    Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:31 PM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting


          Daily Israel Report
          Subscribe (free) 
                Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin 
                Radio | Live  TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise 
         




    Ichud Leumi Candidates Tell Wadi Ara Arabs: Shape Up or Ship Out
    Shevat 11, 5769, 05 February 09 06:28by by Gil Ronen
    (IsraelNN.com) "We are a law abiding state and not only Jews have to respect the law, Arabs do too," the Ichud Leumi (National Union)'s leader Yaakov "Ketzaleh" Katz told Arabs Thursday in Wadi Ara, a valley densely populated by Arabs in northern Israel. "The lawlessness in the Arab sector will end exactly five days from now, when we are elected into office," he vowed. "When we run the country, the situation will change. You've grown used to Barak and Livni's weakness, but the party is over." 


    Ketzaleh in Wadi Ara
    Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



    Arabs curse smiling MK Ariel
    Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
    "The October [2000] riots will not be repeated," Ketzaleh added, as a small crowd of Arabs from the city of Umm El-Fahm began to gather around the Knesset members and their supporters at the entrance to the city.

    A small contingent of policemen, some of them from the special Yassam unit, pushed away some of the Arabs, but some of the locals got very close to the Ichud Leumi candidates and cursed them with various epithets. Knesset Member Uri Ariel was crowded by four or five Arabs but did not lose his cool and kept a determined grin on his face throughout. At the police's request, the Ichud Leumi convoy moved onward and stopped at Megiddo Junction, where they gave interviews to reporters from Jewish and Arabic media outlets.


    Police ask MKs to wrap things up.
    Israel News photo / Gil Ronen



    Arab argues with candidate Ben-Ari
    Israel News photo / Gil Ronen
    Ketzaleh and MK Uri Ariel said that Arabs in Wadi Ara have built over 3,000 units illegally in recent years along Highway 65. They said it was time for Israel to begin demolishing illegally built Arab houses. 

    "In the State of Israel, there will no longer be a situation in which a Jew drives along the Wadi Ara road and the locals will shout 'Itbach al-Yahud' ['slaughter the Jews' ? ed.] at him," Ketzaleh said. "This happened in Europe during the Holocaust but it will not happen in the State of Israel. The Arabs have 21 states in which they can build their houses and shout 'itbach' all day long," he said. "The Arabs are cowards and when they see the Jews behaving proudly they calm down very fast."

    Humanitarian corridor to Venezuela
    Number four on the Ichud Leumi list, Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, told the Arabs listening to him that Israel would be willing to open a "humanitarian corridor" to Venezuela for Arabs wishing to leave. "It seems the Venezuelans and the Arabs get along well," he said, in a reference to recent statements and actions by Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez. When an Arab interrupted him and protested that the Arabs want good neighborly relations with the Jews, Ben Ari reminded him of the Arabs who chanted "Ya Saddam, ya chabib, udrub udrub Tel Aviv" [Saddam the beloved, hit Tel Aviv"] when Scud missiles were falling in the 1991 Gulf War.

    MK Ariel promised that Israel would settle tens of thousands of Jews in Katzir and Harish in the coming years, and Ketzaleh noted the strategic importance of Wadi Ara, which serves for transportation of IDF tanks and other heavy equipment between central Israel and the north.

    The Ichud Leumi faction announced that it intends to imitate Peace Now and establish a body that will research, document, complain and publicize illegal building. Unlike Peace Now, which is interested solely with Jewish building, the new body will deal with Arab building. Illegal construction in the Arab sector creates an atmosphere of lawlessness, the faction's spokesman said, which encourages the creation of terror cells.

    www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
    Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________






    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________




  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090205/b2327236/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 22:35:52 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:35:52 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay]
Message-ID: <498BBE28.80004@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/9e2b542f/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:55:38 -0800 (PST)
Size: 6363
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/9e2b542f/attachment.eml 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 23:44:25 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:44:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
Message-ID: <249735.75447.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

After hearing this wonderful news about Kay, I wanted to let everyone know about a couple of things that have happened here in Texas lately.

I have been staying in Abilene, working on my cousin's used car lot.  His In-Laws have been kind enough to let me stay with them over the last couple of weeks. His mother in law is a very strong Christian, and we have spent many hours visiting in the mornings before I go to work.

A couple of days ago, I told her about Steve Collin's web site before I left for work.  As I drove, I began to wonder what kind of reaction I would get when I got back to the house that evening.  Steve Collin's site, I'm sure many know, is focused toward the Lost Tribes still having a Christian message.  So I figured it may be a good starting point, though I really wasn't sure.

When I got home that day, she told me that she had spent most of the day on the phone with her preacher going through the website, discussing how much sense everything made.  One point that got her was the fact that Truman was surprised that Israel was the chosen name for the Land rather than Judea, since he understood the distinction in scripture.

After this conversation, I decided to email the link to the website to my aunt, Kelly, to see if I could get another positive response.  She emailed me back today, saying that she really enjoyed the site, and asked which of his books I would recommend her buy!  

These are truly amazing times!

Cody

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--



      


From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Feb  6 06:06:43 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:06:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] VERY interesting
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS12ACAAF6891813AC53F80BBAC10@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902051431t40fe02a0p6e63520f8144238@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS14A361AF5A576197195B7EBAC10@phx.gbl><855590370902051855w3531216ei2656c69616660c6d@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS100A8FDD999ABDE185857BBAC10@phx.gbl><855590370902051913j2f52663u3d36ff74cc956e70@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS12ACAAF6891813AC53F80BBAC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <007001c98853$61904e00$0400a8c0@marvin>

Hanoch,  I have think you will be in the Jerusalem jail correct.  So we know
where to send the file!  I mean cake!.  

 

With your executive experience you should get a motel, them we could all
come live with you! :-)

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:53 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting

 

And to you, Hanoch, Shabbat Shalom.  (I'll bake you a cake with a file in
it!)

 

From: Hanoch <mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com>  Young 

Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:13 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting

 

Hey Pat - 

 

     He would never have allowed those jihadists to insult a Jew in the Land
of Israel, let alone members, or candidates for election. It is a tremendous
Chillul HaShem (literally, an emptying of G-d's presence) - a desecration of
G-d to have let this occur.

 

      On the other hand, the fact that they at least went to this
(temporarily) arab-occupied area is a HUGE step forward.  

 

      You know, I probably shouldn't worry so much about getting a job once
I get to Israel - I'm likely to be in jail a lot, it seems.....  :-)

 

       Shabbat Shalom Avigail,

                Hanoch

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Patricia Robbins
<patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hanoch,

 

What would Rabbi Kahane have done if he had been there?  Would he be as free
to act today as he was then?  I'm so glad you knew him and he instilled in
you his spirit.  Also love the T-shirt you're wearing!

 

Pat 

 

From: Hanoch Young <mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com>  

Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:55 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] VERY interesting

 

Hey Pat, 

 

    I only WISH they could, they're a small party at this time...but, G-d
willing they'll grow; they HAVE to - we need some honest, Torah-based
members of the Knesset.

 

    The only thing  - instead of letting those arabs insult them, they
should have taken their heads off....

 

      It just so happens that I'm wearing a shirt right at this moment that
says: "No, everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right!"   And it is SO TRUE!

 

      Best regards,

                Hanoch

  _____  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/29c3a87b/attachment.html 

From dstone34 at cox.net  Fri Feb  6 06:22:36 2009
From: dstone34 at cox.net (Diana Stone)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 06:22:36 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas
Message-ID: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>

Hello Everyone, 

Diana from Kansas here.  I am one of those who set on the side lines following along, sampling different conversation, reading different articles and the commentary that follows. I don't have time to fallow everything, but I appreciate what I can.  We certainly are living in interesting times.  I just wanted to drop a note and say how much I appreciate all of you and your contributions along this ancient path of Avarham we have all found ourselves on.   

Also, I received the following observation from a friend of mine regarding the selection of Obama's White House staff.  

 
Introducing the new White House Staff.  So far we have:

Rahm Emanuel -  Chief of Staff  --  Jewish

David Axelrod  -  Senior Advisor to the President --  Jewish

Ronald Klain  -  Chief of Staff to the Vicr President of the United States -  Jewish

Larry Summers -  Economic Advisor to the President - Jewish

Paul Volcker -  Economic Advisor to the President, Former Head of Fed Reserve - Jewish

Tim Geithner -  Treasury Secretary -  Jewish 

Peter Orszag -  Head of Budget  -  Jewish

Am I the only one noticing that Obama and Biden are not so much assembling staff, as gathering a minyan?  

IF the is true (and if any one out there can verify, please do.)  My first thought is, which ones are pushing the 2 state solution and/or are there any a Zionist among them (which I doubt), or at least supportive of allowing Israel to defend themselves?   In any case, Even IF all these folks have a Jewish background that in it self is AMAZING.   It points that HaShem IS in control, even in the most dire of circumstances.  What say any of you?

Shalom and Blessings,
Diana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/7c0d022e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 08:27:18 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:27:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <249735.75447.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <249735.75447.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS43948103E54CEE840D751BAC10@phx.gbl>

Way to go, Cody!!!!!  We all learned one step at a time.  Moving toward 
HaShem from our two and a half millennia exile (death) can be a slow and 
sometimes quite painful journey.  But that first step is something to be 
celebrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dancing the Hora here......................................


HAVA NAGILA, HAVA NAGILA, HAVA NAGILA V'NIS'MECHA!  (Let us rejoice, let us 
rejoice, let us rejoice and be glad!)

HAVA NERANENA, HAVA NERANENA, HAVA NERANENA V'NIS'MECHA!   (Let us sing, let 
us sing, let us sing and be glad!)

 URU, URU ACHIM!   (Awaken, awaken brethren!!!!!!!!)

URU ACHIM BELEV SAME'ACH!!!!   (Awaken brethren with a joyful heart!!!!)

URU ACHIM!!!!!!  URU ACHIM!!!!!!  URU ACHIM!!!!!!   (AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!! 
AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!!  AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!!)

BE  LEV  SA ME E E E E' AAAAACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (With a joy-oy-oy-ful 
heeeeaaaaarrrrrt!!!!!!!!!!)


THERE IS MUCH RATTLING GOING ON IN THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love you,

Avigail/Aunt Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "cody oneill" <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:44 AM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay

> After hearing this wonderful news about Kay, I wanted to let everyone know 
> about a couple of things that have happened here in Texas lately.
>
> I have been staying in Abilene, working on my cousin's used car lot.  His 
> In-Laws have been kind enough to let me stay with them over the last 
> couple of weeks. His mother in law is a very strong Christian, and we have 
> spent many hours visiting in the mornings before I go to work.
>
> A couple of days ago, I told her about Steve Collin's web site before I 
> left for work.  As I drove, I began to wonder what kind of reaction I 
> would get when I got back to the house that evening.  Steve Collin's site, 
> I'm sure many know, is focused toward the Lost Tribes still having a 
> Christian message.  So I figured it may be a good starting point, though I 
> really wasn't sure.
>
> When I got home that day, she told me that she had spent most of the day 
> on the phone with her preacher going through the website, discussing how 
> much sense everything made.  One point that got her was the fact that 
> Truman was surprised that Israel was the chosen name for the Land rather 
> than Judea, since he understood the distinction in scripture.
>
> After this conversation, I decided to email the link to the website to my 
> aunt, Kelly, to see if I could get another positive response.  She emailed 
> me back today, saying that she really enjoyed the site, and asked which of 
> his books I would recommend her buy!
>
> These are truly amazing times!
>
> Cody
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic 
> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an 
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 08:31:20 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:31:20 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas
In-Reply-To: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>
References: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS53C6EE640F9151ACC7283BAC10@phx.gbl>

Love it!  BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!!

Sooooooooooo glad you're here, Diana!!!!!!


From: Diana Stone 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:22 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas


Hello Everyone, 

Diana from Kansas here.  I am one of those who set on the side lines following along, sampling different conversation, reading different articles and the commentary that follows. I don't have time to fallow everything, but I appreciate what I can.  We certainly are living in interesting times.  I just wanted to drop a note and say how much I appreciate all of you and your contributions along this ancient path of Avarham we have all found ourselves on.   

Also, I received the following observation from a friend of mine regarding the selection of Obama's White House staff.  

  
Introducing the new White House Staff.  So far we have:

Rahm Emanuel -  Chief of Staff  --  Jewish

David Axelrod  -  Senior Advisor to the President --  Jewish

Ronald Klain  -  Chief of Staff to the Vicr President of the United States -  Jewish

Larry Summers -  Economic Advisor to the President - Jewish

Paul Volcker -  Economic Advisor to the President, Former Head of Fed Reserve - Jewish

Tim Geithner -  Treasury Secretary -  Jewish 

Peter Orszag -  Head of Budget  -  Jewish

Am I the only one noticing that Obama and Biden are not so much assembling staff, as gathering a minyan?  

IF the is true (and if any one out there can verify, please do.)  My first thought is, which ones are pushing the 2 state solution and/or are there any a Zionist among them (which I doubt), or at least supportive of allowing Israel to defend themselves?   In any case, Even IF all these folks have a Jewish background that in it self is AMAZING.   It points that HaShem IS in control, even in the most dire of circumstances.  What say any of you?

Shalom and Blessings,
Diana



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/3ac63fe9/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb  6 09:15:11 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:15:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas
In-Reply-To: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>
References: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <0b8e01c9886d$b60e40d0$222ac270$@com>

Hi Diana, welcome to the group!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Diana Stone
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas

 

Hello Everyone, 

 

Diana from Kansas here.  I am one of those who set on the side lines
following along, sampling different conversation, reading different articles
and the commentary that follows. I don't have time to fallow everything, but
I appreciate what I can.  We certainly are living in interesting times.  I
just wanted to drop a note and say how much I appreciate all of you and your
contributions along this ancient path of Avarham we have all found ourselves
on.   

 

Also, I received the following observation from a friend of mine regarding
the selection of Obama's White House staff.  

 

  

Introducing the new White House Staff.  So far we have:

 

Rahm Emanuel -  Chief of Staff  --  Jewish

 

David Axelrod  -  Senior Advisor to the President --  Jewish

 

Ronald Klain  -  Chief of Staff to the Vicr President of the United States -
Jewish

 

Larry Summers -  Economic Advisor to the President - Jewish

 

Paul Volcker -  Economic Advisor to the President, Former Head of Fed
Reserve - Jewish

 

Tim Geithner -  Treasury Secretary -  Jewish 

 

Peter Orszag -  Head of Budget  -  Jewish

 

Am I the only one noticing that Obama and Biden are not so much assembling
staff, as gathering a minyan?  

 

IF the is true (and if any one out there can verify, please do.)  My first
thought is, which ones are pushing the 2 state solution and/or are there any
a Zionist among them (which I doubt), or at least supportive of allowing
Israel to defend themselves?   In any case, Even IF all these folks have a
Jewish background that in it self is AMAZING.   It points that HaShem IS in
control, even in the most dire of circumstances.  What say any of you?

 

Shalom and Blessings,

Diana

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/2c4476d2/attachment.html 

From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 11:15:26 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:15:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <0b2201c98804$a3dc99c0$eb95cd40$@com>
Message-ID: <954439.36837.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Shalom Patty and All,
My husband and I have been listening to Ross for awhile, along with Joe and Dr. Oakley. Recently I read James Tabor's book RAF and officially joined the group.I?felt I should?get to know people better that I planned on spending forever with. :).?I own the book and can loan it to Kay. Thank you for your kind offer!
The neat thing about Kay is a reminder to all of us that even though our world can look like it is turning upside down, HaShem is still in control,his plan will not be squashed, and he is moving in the midst of chaos!
The look on Kay's face reminded me how truly liberated(for lack of a better word) I felt when I no longer needed this ambiguous,turn myself in the latest gymnastic move way to make things fit. I truly understood for the first time, that I do?worship a G-d who is the same yesterday, today and forever! BARUCH HASHEM!
Love to all, 
Susie

--- On Thu, 2/5/09, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 6:43 PM








Shalom Susie,
?
Are you new to this group? What a wonderful story. I would like to suggest that Kay and perhaps the other women should read Restoring Abrahamic Faith by James Tabor. You can purchase this book at: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/ . If there is a problem with cost, I would gladly send you a few copies at no charge.
?
Blessings,
Patty
?
?
?

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
?





Last evening I met a woman named Kay at our weekly Bible study. She attends a weekly Hebrew Roots class at a local Nazarene Church that we teach and we had invited all attendees to our more in depth weekly study. Three women accepted the invitation and attended last evening.

The scriptures studied were Genesis 2:1-3. For 2 hours we had discussion mostly about Shabbat. The three women were completely silent during the discussion but you could visually see that they were being affected. Kay was calm and tears were running down her cheeks.

At the end of the evening Kay finally spoke and she said, " I recently returned from a trip to Israel. Ever since my trip I have had an overwhelming sense that I no longer wanted to be a Christian but I wanted to be Jewish." Kay could not put into words what this meant but Kay had the look of Shalom. It was a beautiful thing to see!

Pray for Kay and her journey to know the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Susie
?_______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090206/628373c4/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Feb  6 17:13:57 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:13:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS43948103E54CEE840D751BAC10@phx.gbl>
References: <249735.75447.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL119-DS43948103E54CEE840D751BAC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3B3B116D356E485CAA7F6ECD7C86DF5E@bettylaptop>

Baruch HaShem Cody...and love your Hebrew singing, Avigail. I can just see
your dancing the Hora! It makes me feel like breaking out in a dance...I
think I will do that as I continue my Shabbat preparations!

BTW, Roger's daughter visited us last weekend and she is questioning her
faith as well and has a ton of questions about the whole Christianity
thing...she and her sister are doing this independently. We have had some
good talks before and Roger and I answered her questions, but did not feel
she was ready for anything major.  

We gave her a couple of good websites, including Ross' Roots of Faith and
UIWU because she was interested in the tribes.  Then I asked James to send
her the Jesus Dynasty Book and Restoring Abrahamic Faith and she should be
receiving it very soon.  We are sending her sister a copy of RAF as
well...just more stirring of the spirit and pulling of the heartstrings in
these last days..."one from a family and two from a city..."  Truly amazing,
but should we be surprised?  HaShem keeps His promises and He is gathering
His people!

Much love and Shabbat Shalom,

Elisheva/Betty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 8:27 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay

Way to go, Cody!!!!!  We all learned one step at a time.  Moving toward 
HaShem from our two and a half millennia exile (death) can be a slow and 
sometimes quite painful journey.  But that first step is something to be 
celebrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dancing the Hora here......................................


HAVA NAGILA, HAVA NAGILA, HAVA NAGILA V'NIS'MECHA!  (Let us rejoice, let us 
rejoice, let us rejoice and be glad!)

HAVA NERANENA, HAVA NERANENA, HAVA NERANENA V'NIS'MECHA!   (Let us sing, let

us sing, let us sing and be glad!)

 URU, URU ACHIM!   (Awaken, awaken brethren!!!!!!!!)

URU ACHIM BELEV SAME'ACH!!!!   (Awaken brethren with a joyful heart!!!!)

URU ACHIM!!!!!!  URU ACHIM!!!!!!  URU ACHIM!!!!!!   (AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!! 
AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!!  AWAKEN BRETHREN!!!!!)

BE  LEV  SA ME E E E E' AAAAACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (With a joy-oy-oy-ful

heeeeaaaaarrrrrt!!!!!!!!!!)


THERE IS MUCH RATTLING GOING ON IN THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love you,

Avigail/Aunt Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "cody oneill" <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:44 AM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay

> After hearing this wonderful news about Kay, I wanted to let everyone know

> about a couple of things that have happened here in Texas lately.
>
> I have been staying in Abilene, working on my cousin's used car lot.  His 
> In-Laws have been kind enough to let me stay with them over the last 
> couple of weeks. His mother in law is a very strong Christian, and we have

> spent many hours visiting in the mornings before I go to work.
>
> A couple of days ago, I told her about Steve Collin's web site before I 
> left for work.  As I drove, I began to wonder what kind of reaction I 
> would get when I got back to the house that evening.  Steve Collin's site,

> I'm sure many know, is focused toward the Lost Tribes still having a 
> Christian message.  So I figured it may be a good starting point, though I

> really wasn't sure.
>
> When I got home that day, she told me that she had spent most of the day 
> on the phone with her preacher going through the website, discussing how 
> much sense everything made.  One point that got her was the fact that 
> Truman was surprised that Israel was the chosen name for the Land rather 
> than Judea, since he understood the distinction in scripture.
>
> After this conversation, I decided to email the link to the website to my 
> aunt, Kelly, to see if I could get another positive response.  She emailed

> me back today, saying that she really enjoyed the site, and asked which of

> his books I would recommend her buy!
>
> These are truly amazing times!
>
> Cody
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic 
> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an

> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 
_______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 17:53:43 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:53:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
	Charlotte
Message-ID: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net>

I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the  
Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual  
meeting again this year!

We will be sending out information about the details of the program  
later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with  
a block of rooms on hold.

The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this  
location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants  
conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold  
the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is  
an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full  
kitchens.

I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for  
more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out-- 
as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more  
widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a  
chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a  
significantly larger crowd than we did last year.

This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and  
you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.  
If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask  
the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as  
well but the three nights are guaranteed.

You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,  
tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this  
special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,  
but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.

Address:

6300 Morrison Boulevard
Charlotte, NC 28211

Web site:

http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites-Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do


Shabbat Shalom,

James


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb  6 23:11:59 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 05:11:59 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas
In-Reply-To: <F7EF11401CB84EA5A4939B8C5DBE9489@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <020720090511.16328.498D181E00099C6500003FC822230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Diana,

It took me some time to respond to you but here is my opinion;

Without having done an extensive study on these folks, the way I see it there are three possible options here;

1.  Mr. Obama has made choices based on his best information, intentions and guidance and there happen to be many of them who are Jews.

2.  Mr. Obama has chosen these folks because they are Jews.

3.  M Obama is pursuing his best intentioned course but God has His own plan in mind.

I don't believe in coincidences, so I think it is probably a combination of choices 1 and 3.

But in my opinion, regardless of the religion of these individuals it really boils down to what will be the US policy regarding helping our ally Israel.

Will the US help Israel do what she knows she needs to do to preserve herself and the land (admittedly, there is much controversy within the Knesset itself on this subject) and follow Torah?

Or will the US help Israel see that she must accept the word's solution for peace at all costs ( two states).

I honestly can't say that there are any evident Zionist's among the group you listed.

Good question my freind.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Diana Stone" <dstone34 at cox.net>: -------------- 


Hello Everyone, 

Diana from Kansas here.  I am one of those who set on the side lines following along, sampling different conversation, reading different articles and the commentary that follows. I don't have time to fallow everything, but I appreciate what I can.  We certainly are living in interesting times.  I just wanted to drop a note and say how much I appreciate all of you and your contributions along this ancient path of Avarham we have all found ourselves on.   

Also, I received the following observation from a friend of mine regarding the selection of Obama's White House staff.  

  
Introducing the new White House Staff.  So far we have:

Rahm Emanuel -  Chief of Staff  --  Jewish

David Axelrod  -  Senior Advisor to the President --  Jewish

Ronald Klain  -  Chief of Staff to the Vicr President of the United States -  Jewish

Larry Summers -  Economic Advisor to the President - Jewish

Paul Volcker -  Economic Advisor to the President, Former Head of Fed Reserve - Jewish

Tim Geithner -  Treasury Secretary -  Jewish 

Peter Orszag -  Head of Budget  -  Jewish

Am I the only one noticing that Obama and Biden are not so much assembling staff, as gathering a minyan?  

IF the is true (and if any one out there can verify, please do.)  My first thought is, which ones are pushing the 2 state solution and/or are there any a Zionist among them (which I doubt), or at least supportive of allowing Israel to defend themselves?   In any case, Even IF all these folks have a Jewish background that in it self is AMAZING.   It points that HaShem IS in control, even in the most dire of circumstances.  What say any of you?

Shalom and Blessings,
Diana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/9eee0110/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 07:07:00 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 08:07:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
	Charlotte, P.S.
Message-ID: <CEF68B12-AE27-4994-B944-B439EE88A0C4@earthlink.net>

P.S.

These rooms won't be available until noon on Monday. I have to get the  
signed contract back to folks first.

***************************************


I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the  
Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual  
meeting again this year!

We will be sending out information about the details of the program  
later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with  
a block of rooms on hold.

The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this  
location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants  
conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold  
the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is  
an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full  
kitchens.

I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for  
more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out-- 
as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more  
widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a  
chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a  
significantly larger crowd than we did last year.

This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and  
you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.  
If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask  
the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as  
well but the three nights are guaranteed.

You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,  
tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this  
special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,  
but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.

Address:

6300 Morrison Boulevard
Charlotte, NC 28211

Web site:

http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites-Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do


Shabbat Shalom,

James
_______________________________________________


From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Sat Feb  7 09:23:26 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 09:23:26 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Grant writing
References: <498B97E5.AAEC8.696F@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <3E7D8CD48FA143F3BED45870DB2D8454@SEWVAC011>

 2.  One of the great skills I have developed, based on a talent that HaShem
 has given me, is *Grant* *Writing*.  I have earned my current employer 
quite
 a bit of money based upon Grants that I've written.  So, once again, if 
you,
 or someone you know is interested in a freelance Grant Writer - now is the
 time!  There's a sale going on...don't miss out on it!   :-)  Let me know 
if
 you're interested.

  If there's anything else that you think I should be considering, please
 give me a shout!

Hanoch Young
***************************************************

My daughter works as a teacher at Lisa Kampner Hebrew Academy
where the teachers have not been paid in almost two months.   They are
always raising money, but seem to be falling behind more often.
 It is an orthodox school, which primarily gives scholarships to Russian 
Jews
who have no money to send their children to a school of this caliber.

http://hebrewacademy.com/index.html

http://hebrewacademy.com/contact.

"
The Hebrew Academy of San Francisco is a Jewish college-preparatory day 
school with a tradition of integrating demanding academic courses with 
courses of Hebrew Language and Judaic Studies. We seek to enroll students 
who are interested in developing an appreciation and understanding of the 
intellectual disciplines that are part of the Western civilization while at 
the same time deepening their commitment to the Jewish people. The school 
looks for young people of sound character and strong educational promise, 
who will profit from their learning experiences, who are interested in 
pursuing independent work and who will be able to contribute actively to the 
academic and extracurricular life of our learning community.

To request admissions materials, or for any other questions, please call 
(415) 752-7333.""


They could probably use the help of someone with your talents if
they fit in the scope of what you do.

Stephen



From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb  7 16:20:10 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:20:10 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas]
Message-ID: <498E091A.4060409@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/63528cb7/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Diana Stone" <dstone34 at cox.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Kansas
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 06:22:36 -0600
Size: 10212
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/63528cb7/attachment.eml 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 19:01:15 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:01:15 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Financial Crisis? Spiritual Opportunity?
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS5C7C54429D95CE4088904C8C10@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS5C7C54429D95CE4088904C8C10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902071701h24a832d4y2b48041c9ab39cd8@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Catherine,

   Shavua tov (good week)!  Thank you very much for your prayers and kind
words of support.  In the ideal situation, I would love to live in one of
the outer neighborhoods of Jerusalem;  although financially, that may just
not be an option.

     Also, I may wind up following the job opportunities..which might be in
other parts of the country.  Both of my daughters have gone on Aliyah (moved
to Israel) within the last 6 months, so there are many factors that I'll be
juggling - no doubt  :-)

    The next year will be very, very *interesting
*that's for sure..

     I will certainly keep letting everyone know the status of things, as
they happen.

     Take care,
           *Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Catherine Cashmore
<chcashmore at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  That's wonderful news Hanoch - if you're in Israel there is no way our
> hearts can ever be far from you!  I'll pray very strongly that it works out
> to be a successful and safe journey.  Keep us updated on when you leave and
> how your preparations go.  We're all here to support you in what ever way we
> can.  I hope one day I'll be able to follow! What part of Israel will you
> reside in?
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/ad4a9f65/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 19:16:48 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:16:48 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Music to start the week!
Message-ID: <855590370902071716h7c0f7811yc30440c4e7ea6944@mail.gmail.com>

Shavua tov (good week) to all!   Some interesting music on the two
(different) links below, I think you'll enjoy them.
               *Hanoch*
  YouTube - Gospel Hebreux
0620603160<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iup8-DdqYcI>

Click here: YouTube - Gospel Hebreux
0620603160<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQJHCBtIDWw&feature=related>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/37f3f548/attachment.html 

From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Feb  7 19:22:14 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:22:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <498E091A.4060409@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Dear Joe:
?
With the?raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered if Jessica is affected,? I believe she lives in?this area of the country? .I hope she is?safe and everything all right with her. ?Do you have any news of her status?
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/70afe88a/attachment.html 

From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 19:24:09 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:24:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Music to start the week!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902071716h7c0f7811yc30440c4e7ea6944@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <150367.39843.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

jewish motown


--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Music to start the week!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 7:16 PM



Shavua tov (good week) to all!?? Some interesting music on the two (different) links below, I think you'll enjoy them.
?????????????? Hanoch
? 
YouTube - Gospel Hebreux 0620603160 
?
Click here: YouTube - Gospel Hebreux 0620603160_______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/9d65904d/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 19:31:38 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:31:38 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Would you rather be a dog?
Message-ID: <855590370902071731s9335076qca74b4989f44f607@mail.gmail.com>

*Another Tack: Would you rather be a dog?
*February 6, 2009
Sarah Honig, THE JERUSALEM POST

She wasn't at all aware of Proverbs 36:11 and had no idea how Bing Crosby's
1944 Academy Award-winning song "Swinging on a Star" remotely pertained to
her pseudo-intellectual angst. The complexities of life were overwhelming
enough without additional bewilderment.

We'll call her Agam. She's the closest among my daughter's slew of close
friends - all sporting trendy unisex names, all self-proclaimed secular
progressives with uber-active social consciences and demonstratively
disaffected demeanors. The world just so totally fails to live up to their
expectations and they're so righteously indignant about it.

Flaunting adolescent scorn, Agam cast her ballot for the Gil Pensioners list
when voting for the first time in 2006. That was the then-fad. She thought
it a lark. My daughter's rebuke and the Lebanese fiasco later that year
appeared to have produced some remorse. Agam promised not to be profligate
with her democratic privilege this time around. Exuding public-spiritedness,
she even got herself a job on a polling station oversight committee. She
seemed a reformed character until she sighed plaintively in our kitchen the
other day: "I don't know who to vote for. They're all the same. Nobody's
worthy."

This provoked my own offspring into another chiding outburst. Agam defended
herself: "I still have months to decide." The prospective polling station
official didn't even know that polling day was just about a week away.

So much for how well-informed some citizens are. Therefore, for voters like
Agam, who feel that no alternative out there is good enough, here's a
thumbnail guide to the electorally perplexed. If you can't find the ultimate
dream candidate, at least attempt a process of elimination. Make sure to
support the adversaries of the following three candidate-categories:

1. Suck-ups to foreign potentates.

It's in your power to stop obsequiousness. It's time Israelis elect leaders
who aren't embarrassed to tell the truth and put this country's existential
interests ahead of making nice. It doesn't matter how much we curry favor
with European heads of government. They all love us just about as much as
Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who revealed his true colors
unforgettably in recent hectoring harangues. Among assorted chilling
proposals, he urged that Israel be chucked out of the UN. Most Europeans
boast better decorum, but not more benevolence toward the Jewish state.

American honchos hardly have our best interests in mind either. Saccharine
praise for George Bush wasn't only distasteful. It's downright harmful.
"Bosom ally" Dubya was the first to impose the potentially ruinous "vision"
of a Palestinian state on Israel. If this is what the warmest "pro-Israel"
support produced, just imagine the "evenhanded course-correction" of Barack
Hussein Obama, less well-disposed toward us and intent on "reaching out" to
the Muslim world. If Israeli higher-ups applaud Obama's unproven goodwill
before he earns our praise, they give him carte blanche to do as he pleases
to our detriment. The last thing we ought to do is elect flatterers - like
Tzipi Livni or Ehud Barak - who cloyingly invite pressure, instead of
waiting and reserving judgment with a modicum of dignity.

2. Promoters of territorial surrender.

It's time to own up that defining our conflict as territorial is a dangerous
canard. Perhaps born of naivete and wishful thinking, it's in effect
cynically exploited to weaken Israel. Territory serves only as a pan-Arab
pretext to persist in the war against Jewish presence in the Jewish
homeland. This bloody war preceded Jewish sovereignty by decades, and indeed
delayed it. Its aim was and remains to throw every Jew into the sea. Only
tactics and alliances change, not objectives. The Arabs always sided with
the most extreme anti-Jewish/Zionist element of their day - from Nazis and
Soviets to Islamofascists. Arab moderation, as Yasser Arafat admitted in his
Johannesburg speech hot on the heels of his Oslo stratagem, is a treacherous
facade. Hence the noxious Jew-hatred inculcated into the youngest Arab
preschoolers, the virulent incitement in Arab media and the exhortation to
mass murder in the mosques.

"Occupation" is a code word for the Jewish state. An "end to occupation"
denotes the destruction of the Jewish state. Territorial compromise doesn't
satisfy Arab appetites. Livni, Barak and like-minded local doves strive hard
to convince their electorate that Arab moderates - whose moderation is
anyway in the eye of the beholder - would terminate the conflict in return
for reasonable territorial concessions. This never was a tenable option and
won't be any time soon. What the mighty Arafat couldn't grant the fawning
Barak, the PA's will-o-the-wisp outgoing President Mahmoud Abbas cannot
countenance. And as for Hamas, better not waste our breath.

Bottom line: Avoid candidates who advocate further withdrawals, especially
from Judea and Samaria, which straddle the country's super-vulnerable
eastern flank.

3. Four-flushers who play us for fools.

Candidates like Livni and Barak enthusiastically endorsed the midnight
escape from Lebanon in 2000 and/or pushed for the subsequent 2005
disengagement from Gaza. They derided warnings that withdrawals and the
destruction of Jewish communities would embolden fanatics and bring a rain
of rockets farther into Israel. Confoundingly, however, reality refused to
cooperate with these serial fantasists/bamboozlers and their ilk. Each and
every forecast about unilateralism's catastrophic consequences proved
indisputably accurate.

"Peacenik" willful duplicity made the Second Lebanon War and the recent
incursion into Gaza inevitable. Yet even the mildest token of contrition
remains absent. There can be no greater contra-recommendation than
Livni's/Barak's moral omission.

Their perfidy, though, extends beyond pro-retreat raptures. They continued
to lie. They failed to react to Hizbullah/Hamas aggression for years and
allowed the enemy to stockpile massive arsenals. They told us that sending
ground forces into the Gaza Strip would cost innumerable casualties, that
controlling launching sites wouldn't reduce rocket barrages, that if we set
foot in Gaza's mire we'd be unable to extricate ourselves, and finally that
a job partially done is the whole shebang, that a premature return to square
one will guarantee that a Lebanese-like flop won't be replayed in Gaza.

IN A NUTSHELL, Agam, even if you lack the absolutely perfect candidate to
rave about, you can at least vote for the lesser of the various evils. You
might not be sure about whom to vote for, but you can be sure about whom to
oppose. If you don't vote to defeat sycophants, retreat-merchants and
deceivers, then you'll surely fall prey to what Proverbs 36:11 admonishes
against.

"Like a dog that returns to its vomit," stresses the ancient wisdom, "is the
fool who repeats his folly."

Take heed Agam. Avoid repugnant reflexes and the thoughtless replication of
what you shouldn't have done in past elections. To paraphrase the lyrics of
Bing's old-time hit in the timeless spirit of Proverbs: "Would you like to
be better off than you are, or would you rather be a dog?"


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
<wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/ddd2334b/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 19:55:07 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:55:07 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Gaza War Protest in San Francisco - WATCH
Message-ID: <855590370902071755o37bbe915ubd37ba1d67de9bfa@mail.gmail.com>

Gaza War Protest <http://zombietime.com/gaza_war_protest/>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/0b63887e/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sat Feb  7 20:06:52 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 21:06:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree
	in	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net>
References: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0c3201c98991$ea676e40$bf364ac0$@com>

Hi James and All,

Dave and I will be coming to this, do you want us to provide the music
again? Let us know, okay?

Love,
Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:54 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
Charlotte

I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the  
Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual  
meeting again this year!

We will be sending out information about the details of the program  
later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with  
a block of rooms on hold.

The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this  
location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants  
conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold  
the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is  
an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full  
kitchens.

I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for  
more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out-- 
as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more  
widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a  
chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a  
significantly larger crowd than we did last year.

This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and  
you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.  
If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask  
the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as  
well but the three nights are guaranteed.

You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,  
tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this  
special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,  
but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.

Address:

6300 Morrison Boulevard
Charlotte, NC 28211

Web site:

http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites
-Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do


Shabbat Shalom,

James
_______________________________________________



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  7 21:02:49 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 03:02:49 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Gaza War Protest in San Francisco - WATCH
In-Reply-To: <855590370902071755o37bbe915ubd37ba1d67de9bfa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020820090302.9974.498E4B58000E3B68000026F622193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

This reinforces my suspician that the only thing we, as a society, learned during the 60's was the art of protesting.  Actually understanding what you are protesting about would be an option subject to ones motivation to truly understand the facts.  This will be our downfall.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Gaza War Protest 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/b458cd91/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  7 21:19:54 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 03:19:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Music to start the week!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902071716h7c0f7811yc30440c4e7ea6944@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020820090319.6027.498E4F59000E39100000178B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Are ya kiddin?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Shavua tov (good week) to all!   Some interesting music on the two (different) links below, I think you'll enjoy them.
               Hanoch
  
YouTube - Gospel Hebreux 0620603160 

Click here: YouTube - Gospel Hebreux 0620603160
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/b47f53fe/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sat Feb  7 21:51:23 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 14:21:23 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/0f7c74dc/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  7 22:51:05 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:51:05 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <020820090451.14481.498E64B90001288B0000389122193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Jessica,

It's good to hear from you.  It strikes me that one of the characteristics of our people is that we seem to have more faith than "common sense" (as the world would define it).

I love the blonde comment.

Glad you are okay.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>: -------------- 

Hello Helen,
Thank you for your enquiry and concern regarding my welfare during this horrendous heatwave. 
This has been a once in 100 year event, and the duration of the extreme temperatures has exceeded previous records.
I am a volunteer member of the local Bush Fire Service and we have had only a small number of call outs during this peak time - fortunately. On Australia Day, 26th January, we were called to a raging fire in the Onkaparinga Gorge (check it out on google earth). We had brigades on all sides of the Gorge and strike teams coming in to assist the ground crews and fixed wing water bombers and helicopters including the Ericsson Sky Crane attacking from the air. Our little township was threatened when the wind changed and pushed the fire towards us. But this time - human power won and the fire was finally out the next day around noon. 
Another fire broke out on the hill directly across the paddocks from where I live (about 2 kilometres) and directly above our little township (about 1 kilometre), but was put out after about 10 hours of furious firefighting efforts. 
There was a fire in one of the vineyards last Friday, but was put out within a couple of hours. Unfortunately the property owners lost about an acre and a half of their vineyard. 
Many of the vineyards have lost a great deal of their crops during the heat. The grapes have shrivelled on the vines. And of course it isn't just the vineyards that are suffering. Stone fruit growers and market gardeners have all had their share of losses as well. 
Many people (I think the number is about 35 or so in South Australia) have died as a result of the heat and untold animals have also perished. 
A young male koala made his way into my garden, exhausted and dehydrated. My neighbour and I set up large dishes of water for him and encouraged him to drink, which he did after a while.  I assisted him to get into one of the shallow dishes to cool down. He got the message and was quite happy to lay down in the water, which was shaded by large trees. The poor little fellow was terribly thin and had very little energy. My neighbour contacted one of the wildlife parks to find out what to do for him, as we couldn't get him to eat. She was told that it is normal for koalas to not eat during severe heat and could survive for a couple of weeks so long as he had water. He allowed us to touch him and stroke his back and rub his ears. He even let me feel around his tummy to check if he was a boy or a girl. (Girls have a pouch) He revived and stayed with us for about 4 or 5 days. I had photos, but being blonde I deleted them from my memory card before saving them to my computer. By the time I realised the error, he had moved on. Very disappointing. 
South Australian firefighters are assembling teams to go across the border into Victoria to assist the firefighters there who have had many more fire outbreaks with greater intensity than we have had to deal with here. Some of our local people will be going along and may be away for a week or more. It happens every year and Australians are renown for throwing themselves into the fray when required. 
These are all volunteers and many of them are self employed, so they not only put their lives at risk but also their livelihoods. I am a volunteer behind the scenes and bow down to those who are out there in scorching temperatures, battling incredible radiant heat from the fires as well as the heat from the sun. 
In the early hours of this morning we had a wonderful cool change come through heralded by thunder and lightning. Fortunately there were no lightning strikes (at least not in this district). It is sooooooo nice to finally have the change and I for one am very, very grateful.
I have a friend who works in a centre for the mentally handicapped. He says it has been a very difficult time for them because the residents are not able to make rational choices about what type of clothing to wear. Some of them insist on wearing sweaters and overcoats and totally refuse to change their ways. The solution was to get them into the swimming pool - fully clothed if necessary - to protect them. Fortunately the pool is indoors and fortunately they love the pool. 
Again, Helen, thank you for thinking of me. 
I am always here in the background and find the dialogue posts as always very, very interesting, informative and sometimes even challenging.  
I will try to  make  some time available to add to my page on the Synagogue Without Walls very soon. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Helen Lusk wrote: 

Dear Joe:

With the raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered if Jessica is affected,  I believe she lives in this area of the country  .I hope she is safe and everything all right with her.  Do you have any news of her status?

Kind regards,

Helen



_______________________________________________
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/1a79cec4/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sat Feb  7 23:10:54 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 15:40:54 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] A Woman Named Kay
In-Reply-To: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <182086.94877.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <498E695E.40506@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/54b591f2/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  7 23:51:07 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 05:51:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <020820090551.10682.498E72CB0004CB5D000029BA22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey all,

Carin and I were watching the news last night and there was a feature about a gentleman from the Bronx who had founded a charitable association to buy books and pencils for the public schools in the Bronx.  

This feature was intended to laud the humanitarian efforts that this man had undertaken and I don't mean to take away from those efforts.

But I feel I have to question the need for such efforts.

Here in Louisiana, the very first public school in the state sits right behind the synagogue that we meet in every weekend.  It was built and supported by the congregation that formed the synagogue that we are heirs to.

Here is the conundrum.  Mind you that the issues of separation of church and state here boggle the mind. 

In the days before the established tax structure, local communities (regardless of their religious affilaitions) established and supported the educational systems of their children.  This is, by the way, a fundamental precept of the Hebrew faith.  Somewhere along the line we seem to have abbrogated this responsibility to the state/.federal government.  To the point that we are now at a loss to determine who is responsible for funding the education of our children.  Yet we keep paying taxes with the expectation that they will be taken care of.

We are about to authorize the release of about ( I won't argue about the exact number, the senate doesn't even know) 900 BILLION dollars to save our economy, so far I have heard nothing about how much will go to our nations schools (I am open to correction if someone knows different).  Rest assured that corporate america is happy even though they are now realizing that the talent pool available to take the reins of their businesses is shrinking rapidly.  Their bank accounts are intact.

In any case, it is amazing to me that our "public" system has reached the point that urban teachers find it necessary to (and we applaud) reaching out to the local community to fund such educational staples such as notebooks and pencils (not to mention teachers salaries).  I thought that this is what we were paying taxes for in the first place, or a least it should be!

Am I off base?

John C.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3fe19f62/attachment.html 

From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Feb  8 01:32:34 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 23:32:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <315945.24468.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Jessica:
?
So glad? to hear you are all?right, and to also hear about the wonderful spirit of so many volunteers putting their lives and livelihood on the line to come to the aid of those in the danger area.I could not sleep tonight for thinking and praying for the people and the situation there. Here is the latest news I found on the internet. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090208/ap_on_re_au_an/as_australia_wildfires
Unfortunately?the death toll has risen to 65 now. I was horrified to read about people being burned alive in their cars as they tried to escape.
?
It must have been a satisfying adventure to be ?able to help the Koala bear survive and that?your friend found a solution for cooling down these mentally handicapped people. Hopefuly the cooler weather will bring great relief to all and may Hashem bless, protect?and give strength to all those volunteering to put out the fires.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen

n Sat, 2/7/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:

From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 10:51 PM


Hello Helen,
Thank you for your enquiry and concern regarding my welfare during this horrendous heatwave. 
This has been a once in 100 year event, and the duration of the extreme temperatures has exceeded previous records.
I am a volunteer member of the local Bush Fire Service and we have had only a small number of call outs during this peak time - fortunately. On Australia Day, 26th January, we were called to a raging fire in the Onkaparinga Gorge (check it out on google earth). We had brigades on all sides of the Gorge and strike teams coming in to assist the ground crews and fixed wing water bombers and helicopters including the Ericsson Sky Crane attacking from the air. Our little township was threatened when the wind changed and pushed the fire towards us. But this time - human power won and the fire was finally out the next day around noon. 
Another fire broke out on the hill directly across the paddocks from where I live (about 2 kilometres) and directly above our little township (about 1 kilometre), but was put out after about 10 hours of furious firefighting efforts. 
There was a fire in one of the vineyards last Friday, but was put out within a couple of hours. Unfortunately the property owners lost about an acre and a half of their vineyard. 
Many of the vineyards have lost a great deal of their crops during the heat. The grapes have shrivelled on the vines. And of course it isn't just the vineyards that are suffering. Stone fruit growers and market gardeners have all had their share of losses as well. 
Many people (I think the number is about 35 or so in South Australia) have died as a result of the heat and untold animals have also perished. 
A young male koala made his way into my garden, exhausted and dehydrated. My neighbour and I set up large dishes of water for him and encouraged him to drink, which he did after a while.? I assisted him to get into one of the shallow dishes to cool down. He got the message and was quite happy to lay down in the water, which was shaded by large trees. The poor little fellow was terribly thin and had very little energy. My neighbour contacted one of the wildlife parks to find out what to do for him, as we couldn't get him to eat. She was told that it is normal for koalas to not eat during severe heat and could survive for a couple of weeks so long as he had water. He allowed us to touch him and stroke his back and rub his ears. He even let me feel around his tummy to check if he was a boy or a girl. (Girls have a pouch) He revived and stayed with us for about 4 or 5 days. I had photos, but being blonde I deleted them from my memory card before saving them
 to my computer. By the time I realised the error, he had moved on. Very disappointing. 
South Australian firefighters are assembling teams to go across the border into Victoria to assist the firefighters there who have had many more fire outbreaks with greater intensity than we have had to deal with here. Some of our local people will be going along and may be away for a week or more. It happens every year and Australians are renown for throwing themselves into the fray when required. 
These are all volunteers and many of them are self employed, so they not only put their lives at risk but also their livelihoods. I am a volunteer behind the scenes and bow down to those who are out there in scorching temperatures, battling incredible radiant heat from the fires as well as the heat from the sun. 
In the early hours of this morning we had a wonderful cool change come through heralded by thunder and lightning. Fortunately there were no lightning strikes (at least not in this district). It is sooooooo nice to finally have the change and I for one am very, very grateful.
I have a friend who works in a centre for the mentally handicapped. He says it has been a very difficult time for them because the residents are not able to make rational choices about what type of clothing to wear. Some of them insist on wearing sweaters and overcoats and totally refuse to change their ways. The solution was to get them into the swimming pool - fully clothed if necessary - to protect them. Fortunately the pool is indoors and fortunately they love the pool. 
Again, Helen, thank you for thinking of me. 
I am always here in the background and find the dialogue posts as always very, very interesting, informative and sometimes even challenging.? 
I will try to? make? some time available to add to my page on the Synagogue Without Walls very soon. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Helen Lusk wrote: 






Dear Joe:
?
With the?raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered if Jessica is affected,? I believe she lives in?this area of the country? .I hope she is?safe and everything all right with her. ?Do you have any news of her status?
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen
?
_______________________________________________
  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090207/73a3966f/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Feb  8 05:46:48 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:46:48 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
Message-ID: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/b9c83cfa/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sun Feb  8 06:31:24 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 23:01:24 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <315945.24468.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <315945.24468.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <498ED09C.2060909@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/52b3878d/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Feb  8 08:17:33 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:17:33 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes
Message-ID: <bf1.48fec3e8.36c0437d@aol.com>

Sorry for the duplication, but I wanted to make sure that everyone received  
this note as it regards a tough situation I am in right now at work - as well 
as  Sunday Shul classes for the next couple of weeks.
 
 
Shalom!

I wanted to take some time this morning to send a note to my  entire mailing 
list to explain a situation that is before me. 

There is a  quote that has been on my mind of late from "Pirket Avoth - the 
Sayings of the  Fathers".
"Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, says;  'Torah study is good 
together with an occupation, for the exertion of them both  makes sin 
forgotten. All Torah study that is not joined with work will cease in  the end, and 
leads to sin.'"

As many of you know, I am a  mid-level manager for a Paper business in 
addition to my responsibilities as a  husband and father and as a Bible teacher. 

During these tough economic  times many people are without work and I think 
of this often. I, on the other  hand have been blessed with a good and stable 
job and a lot of responsibility.  As one wisely put it, "To whom much is given, 
much is required." My job  is secure, but these times have placed a strain 
over the past few months on my  department. Thankfully things are looking up, 
but in order to come through these  times successfully, my staff is having to 
work some incredibly demanding hours  of work. Our team is working extra hours 
to ensure that our employees are in the  best position to gain business. I have 
learned through years of leadership  experience in military and civilian life 
that people respond when leaders lead  by example. So I scheduled myself on 
nights (Saturday - Thursday - off on  the Sabbath) to demonstrate my commitment 
to our team. I intend to do this  for the next several weeks as we put some 
things in place.

As a result of  this schedule, the audio teachings during the month of 
February will be "touch  and go". I thought that I could teach tonight despite my 
hectic work schedule,  but honestly am too tired to teach tonight. I worked all 
night last night and  will be working again tonight. I had planned on teaching 
and then going to work  after my class. I am hopeful that next week I will be 
able to teach, but will  play things by ear and communicate the class 
schedule as we get  closer.

It is interesting to note that the Torah reading this week in the  Annual 
Cycle is Yitro. This reading from the book of Exodus has Yitro's  (Jethro's) 
counsel to Moses regarding delegation lest he wear out! He also says  that it 
"this thing" is not good. Talk about a timely message for me! I plan to  drink 
these words in this week. I also intend to write some of my thoughts  on the 
Torah Portion this week, as this reading contains the 10 words (10  Commandments) 
- or Testimony. 

My true passion is in learning,  teaching and seeking to live according to 
the principles of the Hebrew Bible. At  this time I am taking the principles to 
my daily life - seeking to tie Torah  study with an occupation. 

I assure you that this is only temporary and  as soon as I can get back to 
the pulpit I will do so - perhaps as early as next  weekend. I just wanted to be 
open with all of you. I would ask that you  communicate this message far and 
wide to those who have faithfully listened to  the teachings so that they 
understand what is going on. I accept no salary from  the congregation or for my 
teaching and have therefore always worked hard to  support my family through 
other means. Many people depend on me to lead  effectively. I pray that you 
understand. 

Shalom to all of you and I will  be communicating the status as soon as I 
know something new.



Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Who's never won?  Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on 
AOL Music. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000003)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/668b23a3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 08:31:18 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:31:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS64A680973519EFA48ACF4BABF0@phx.gbl>

Jessica,

Just read Helen and your emails this morning.  Am so terribly sorry to hear of the fires causing loss/danger of/to lives, homes and livelihoods.  I seldom turn my TV on and did not know.  Baruch Hashem that you are safe!  

I loved the story of your little, lost Koala.  What precious photos those must have been.  

It's wonderful to read your emails.  I know you seldom have time to write, but your writing always relays the marvelous spirit of our Australian brothers.  Having been privileged to visit the land of Oz once, I very much appreciate all that you say.  I dearly loved the Australians, and when you write of their dropping everything to pitch in  and help one another, I see the faces of those dear ones I got to know.  I found yours to be such an extraordinary nation! 

Am now praying for Australia, as well as Israel to be blessed with His Rain/rain.

My love to you,

Pat  


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia


Hello Helen,
Thank you for your enquiry and concern regarding my welfare during this horrendous heatwave. 
This has been a once in 100 year event, and the duration of the extreme temperatures has exceeded previous records.
I am a volunteer member of the local Bush Fire Service and we have had only a small number of call outs during this peak time - fortunately. On Australia Day, 26th January, we were called to a raging fire in the Onkaparinga Gorge (check it out on google earth). We had brigades on all sides of the Gorge and strike teams coming in to assist the ground crews and fixed wing water bombers and helicopters including the Ericsson Sky Crane attacking from the air. Our little township was threatened when the wind changed and pushed the fire towards us. But this time - human power won and the fire was finally out the next day around noon. 
Another fire broke out on the hill directly across the paddocks from where I live (about 2 kilometres) and directly above our little township (about 1 kilometre), but was put out after about 10 hours of furious firefighting efforts. 
There was a fire in one of the vineyards last Friday, but was put out within a couple of hours. Unfortunately the property owners lost about an acre and a half of their vineyard. 
Many of the vineyards have lost a great deal of their crops during the heat. The grapes have shrivelled on the vines. And of course it isn't just the vineyards that are suffering. Stone fruit growers and market gardeners have all had their share of losses as well. 
Many people (I think the number is about 35 or so in South Australia) have died as a result of the heat and untold animals have also perished. 
A young male koala made his way into my garden, exhausted and dehydrated. My neighbour and I set up large dishes of water for him and encouraged him to drink, which he did after a while.  I assisted him to get into one of the shallow dishes to cool down. He got the message and was quite happy to lay down in the water, which was shaded by large trees. The poor little fellow was terribly thin and had very little energy. My neighbour contacted one of the wildlife parks to find out what to do for him, as we couldn't get him to eat. She was told that it is normal for koalas to not eat during severe heat and could survive for a couple of weeks so long as he had water. He allowed us to touch him and stroke his back and rub his ears. He even let me feel around his tummy to check if he was a boy or a girl. (Girls have a pouch) He revived and stayed with us for about 4 or 5 days. I had photos, but being blonde I deleted them from my memory card before saving them to my computer. By the time I realised the error, he had moved on. Very disappointing. 
South Australian firefighters are assembling teams to go across the border into Victoria to assist the firefighters there who have had many more fire outbreaks with greater intensity than we have had to deal with here. Some of our local people will be going along and may be away for a week or more. It happens every year and Australians are renown for throwing themselves into the fray when required. 
These are all volunteers and many of them are self employed, so they not only put their lives at risk but also their livelihoods. I am a volunteer behind the scenes and bow down to those who are out there in scorching temperatures, battling incredible radiant heat from the fires as well as the heat from the sun. 
In the early hours of this morning we had a wonderful cool change come through heralded by thunder and lightning. Fortunately there were no lightning strikes (at least not in this district). It is sooooooo nice to finally have the change and I for one am very, very grateful.
I have a friend who works in a centre for the mentally handicapped. He says it has been a very difficult time for them because the residents are not able to make rational choices about what type of clothing to wear. Some of them insist on wearing sweaters and overcoats and totally refuse to change their ways. The solution was to get them into the swimming pool - fully clothed if necessary - to protect them. Fortunately the pool is indoors and fortunately they love the pool. 
Again, Helen, thank you for thinking of me. 
I am always here in the background and find the dialogue posts as always very, very interesting, informative and sometimes even challenging.  
I will try to  make  some time available to add to my page on the Synagogue Without Walls very soon. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Helen Lusk wrote: 

        Dear Joe:

        With the raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered if Jessica is affected,  I believe she lives in this area of the country  .I hope she is safe and everything all right with her.  Do you have any news of her status?

        Kind regards,

        Helen
       

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3c2ee690/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 08:53:13 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:53:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree
	in	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <0c3201c98991$ea676e40$bf364ac0$@com>
References: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net>
	<0c3201c98991$ea676e40$bf364ac0$@com>
Message-ID: <9F57BA0B-5B59-456F-8A9D-CEBABABB1477@earthlink.net>

We certainly want music and I am hoping you all with John, Tracy, and  
others can present our "Ephramite CD" but let's discuss the details  
one-on-one, logistics, arrangements, etc. I don't want you to get  
saddled with all the costs and responsibility. More later, but the  
meeting would not be the same without you.

James


On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Patty wrote:

> Hi James and All,
>
> Dave and I will be coming to this, do you want us to provide the music
> again? Let us know, okay?
>
> Love,
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:54 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
> Charlotte
>
> I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the
> Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual
> meeting again this year!
>
> We will be sending out information about the details of the program
> later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with
> a block of rooms on hold.
>
> The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this
> location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants
> conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold
> the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is
> an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full
> kitchens.
>
> I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for
> more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out--
> as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more
> widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a
> chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a
> significantly larger crowd than we did last year.
>
> This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and
> you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.
> If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask
> the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as
> well but the three nights are guaranteed.
>
> You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,
> tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this
> special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,
> but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.
>
> Address:
>
> 6300 Morrison Boulevard
> Charlotte, NC 28211
>
> Web site:
>
> http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites
> -Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do
>
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>
> James
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 09:04:35 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 10:04:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes
In-Reply-To: <bf1.48fec3e8.36c0437d@aol.com>
References: <bf1.48fec3e8.36c0437d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <45B29252-D12C-4EE2-9BDE-E8DCD57ADCD9@earthlink.net>

Ross, please do no feel bad about this or let yourself get down. You  
can not do everything and like all of us, you have to deal with the  
reality of your situation. You are better for all of us when rested  
and high enegy, so hang in there and we look forward to whatever way  
you can best work this out.

James


On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:17 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:

> Sorry for the duplication, but I wanted to make sure that everyone  
> received this note as it regards a tough situation I am in right now  
> at work - as well as Sunday Shul classes for the next couple of weeks.
>
>
> Shalom!
>
> I wanted to take some time this morning to send a note to my entire  
> mailing list to explain a situation that is before me.
>
> There is a quote that has been on my mind of late from "Pirket Avoth  
> - the Sayings of the Fathers".
> "Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, says; 'Torah study  
> is good together with an occupation, for the exertion of them both  
> makes sin forgotten. All Torah study that is not joined with work  
> will cease in the end, and leads to sin.'"
>
> As many of you know, I am a mid-level manager for a Paper business  
> in addition to my responsibilities as a husband and father and as a  
> Bible teacher.
>
> During these tough economic times many people are without work and I  
> think of this often. I, on the other hand have been blessed with a  
> good and stable job and a lot of responsibility. As one wisely put  
> it, "To whom much is given, much is required." My job is secure, but  
> these times have placed a strain over the past few months on my  
> department. Thankfully things are looking up, but in order to come  
> through these times successfully, my staff is having to work some  
> incredibly demanding hours of work. Our team is working extra hours  
> to ensure that our employees are in the best position to gain  
> business. I have learned through years of leadership experience in  
> military and civilian life that people respond when leaders lead by  
> example. So I scheduled myself on nights (Saturday - Thursday - off  
> on the Sabbath) to demonstrate my commitment to our team. I intend  
> to do this for the next several weeks as we put some things in place.
>
> As a result of this schedule, the audio teachings during the month  
> of February will be "touch and go". I thought that I could teach  
> tonight despite my hectic work schedule, but honestly am too tired  
> to teach tonight. I worked all night last night and will be working  
> again tonight. I had planned on teaching and then going to work  
> after my class. I am hopeful that next week I will be able to teach,  
> but will play things by ear and communicate the class schedule as we  
> get closer.
>
> It is interesting to note that the Torah reading this week in the  
> Annual Cycle is Yitro. This reading from the book of Exodus has  
> Yitro's (Jethro's) counsel to Moses regarding delegation lest he  
> wear out! He also says that it "this thing" is not good. Talk about  
> a timely message for me! I plan to drink these words in this week. I  
> also intend to write some of my thoughts on the Torah Portion this  
> week, as this reading contains the 10 words (10 Commandments) - or  
> Testimony.
>
> My true passion is in learning, teaching and seeking to live  
> according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. At this time I am  
> taking the principles to my daily life - seeking to tie Torah study  
> with an occupation.
>
> I assure you that this is only temporary and as soon as I can get  
> back to the pulpit I will do so - perhaps as early as next weekend.  
> I just wanted to be open with all of you. I would ask that you  
> communicate this message far and wide to those who have faithfully  
> listened to the teachings so that they understand what is going on.  
> I accept no salary from the congregation or for my teaching and have  
> therefore always worked hard to support my family through other  
> means. Many people depend on me to lead effectively. I pray that you  
> understand.
>
> Shalom to all of you and I will be communicating the status as soon  
> as I know something new.
>
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
> Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL  
> Music.
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/5f5ec2f9/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Sun Feb  8 10:02:08 2009
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:02:08 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes
In-Reply-To: <45B29252-D12C-4EE2-9BDE-E8DCD57ADCD9@earthlink.net>
References: <bf1.48fec3e8.36c0437d@aol.com>
	<45B29252-D12C-4EE2-9BDE-E8DCD57ADCD9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8851843F6C2E4944812A6EE73D2FEA0E@Beeblebrox>

Bless you Ross, for your concern and faithfulness to bring us timely teachings.  I am sure that for many of us there is still much 'green grass' to chew on in the archived messages found on your webpage.  Taking a lesson from the 'kosher animals', we need to regurgitate and ruminate on our food for a while, which assures us of good digestion.

It seems like the lesson of Yitro is indeed good counsel at this time.  Thankfully many brethren are rising to the occasion from amongst us, and there is much sharing and encouraging going on in the background.

Shalom,
Stephen and Sharon

 




 ----- Original Message ----- 





  From: James Tabor 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes


  Ross, please do no feel bad about this or let yourself get down. You can not do everything and like all of us, you have to deal with the reality of your situation. You are better for all of us when rested and high enegy, so hang in there and we look forward to whatever way you can best work this out.


  James




  On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:17 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:


    Sorry for the duplication, but I wanted to make sure that everyone received this note as it regards a tough situation I am in right now at work - as well as Sunday Shul classes for the next couple of weeks.


    Shalom!

    I wanted to take some time this morning to send a note to my entire mailing list to explain a situation that is before me. 

    There is a quote that has been on my mind of late from "Pirket Avoth - the Sayings of the Fathers".
    "Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, says; 'Torah study is good together with an occupation, for the exertion of them both makes sin forgotten. All Torah study that is not joined with work will cease in the end, and leads to sin.'"

    As many of you know, I am a mid-level manager for a Paper business in addition to my responsibilities as a husband and father and as a Bible teacher. 

    During these tough economic times many people are without work and I think of this often. I, on the other hand have been blessed with a good and stable job and a lot of responsibility. As one wisely put it, "To whom much is given, much is required." My job is secure, but these times have placed a strain over the past few months on my department. Thankfully things are looking up, but in order to come through these times successfully, my staff is having to work some incredibly demanding hours of work. Our team is working extra hours to ensure that our employees are in the best position to gain business. I have learned through years of leadership experience in military and civilian life that people respond when leaders lead by example. So I scheduled myself on nights (Saturday - Thursday - off on the Sabbath) to demonstrate my commitment to our team. I intend to do this for the next several weeks as we put some things in place.

    As a result of this schedule, the audio teachings during the month of February will be "touch and go". I thought that I could teach tonight despite my hectic work schedule, but honestly am too tired to teach tonight. I worked all night last night and will be working again tonight. I had planned on teaching and then going to work after my class. I am hopeful that next week I will be able to teach, but will play things by ear and communicate the class schedule as we get closer.

    It is interesting to note that the Torah reading this week in the Annual Cycle is Yitro. This reading from the book of Exodus has Yitro's (Jethro's) counsel to Moses regarding delegation lest he wear out! He also says that it "this thing" is not good. Talk about a timely message for me! I plan to drink these words in this week. I also intend to write some of my thoughts on the Torah Portion this week, as this reading contains the 10 words (10 Commandments) - or Testimony. 

    My true passion is in learning, teaching and seeking to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. At this time I am taking the principles to my daily life - seeking to tie Torah study with an occupation. 

    I assure you that this is only temporary and as soon as I can get back to the pulpit I will do so - perhaps as early as next weekend. I just wanted to be open with all of you. I would ask that you communicate this message far and wide to those who have faithfully listened to the teachings so that they understand what is going on. I accept no salary from the congregation or for my teaching and have therefore always worked hard to support my family through other means. Many people depend on me to lead effectively. I pray that you understand. 

    Shalom to all of you and I will be communicating the status as soon as I know something new.



    Ross K. Nichols 
    www.RootsofFaith.org




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
    _______________________________________________





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/8c6c50c7/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 12:17:29 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:17:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes
In-Reply-To: <8851843F6C2E4944812A6EE73D2FEA0E@Beeblebrox>
References: <bf1.48fec3e8.36c0437d@aol.com><45B29252-D12C-4EE2-9BDE-E8DCD57ADCD9@earthlink.net>
	<8851843F6C2E4944812A6EE73D2FEA0E@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <06AEC823DAB84C689CD9CDF383D699F3@bettylaptop>

Ross, I whole-heartedly agree with what James and Stephen and Sharon have
offered in the comments below.  We know that your heart's desire is to
teach, and teach you will, when you are able.  The example you are providing
at your place of work is in itself a "teaching."  I am thankful that HaShem
is giving you the wisdom to take time off to do what is required of you.for
what you are doing is "living Torah" too.  We will welcome you back when the
time comes.  We love and appreciate you, and thank you for being concerned
about us.  As Stephen and Sharon said, you have given us a lot of "chew" on
and the lesson taught in Yitro is indeed appropriate.

 

Shavuah tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:02 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes

 

Bless you Ross, for your concern and faithfulness to bring us timely
teachings.  I am sure that for many of us there is still much 'green grass'
to chew on in the archived messages found on your webpage.  Taking a lesson
from the 'kosher animals', we need to regurgitate and ruminate on our food
for a while, which assures us of good digestion.

 

It seems like the lesson of Yitro is indeed good counsel at this time.
Thankfully many brethren are rising to the occasion from amongst us, and
there is much sharing and encouraging going on in the background.

 

Shalom,

Stephen and Sharon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ----- Original Message ----- 

 

 

 

 

 

From: James <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  Tabor 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:04 AM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] February Sunday Shul Classes

 

Ross, please do no feel bad about this or let yourself get down. You can not
do everything and like all of us, you have to deal with the reality of your
situation. You are better for all of us when rested and high enegy, so hang
in there and we look forward to whatever way you can best work this out. 

 

James

 

 

On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:17 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:





Sorry for the duplication, but I wanted to make sure that everyone received
this note as it regards a tough situation I am in right now at work - as
well as Sunday Shul classes for the next couple of weeks.

 

 

Shalom!

I wanted to take some time this morning to send a note to my entire mailing
list to explain a situation that is before me. 

There is a quote that has been on my mind of late from "Pirket Avoth - the
Sayings of the Fathers".
"Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, says; 'Torah study is good
together with an occupation, for the exertion of them both makes sin
forgotten. All Torah study that is not joined with work will cease in the
end, and leads to sin.'"

As many of you know, I am a mid-level manager for a Paper business in
addition to my responsibilities as a husband and father and as a Bible
teacher. 

During these tough economic times many people are without work and I think
of this often. I, on the other hand have been blessed with a good and stable
job and a lot of responsibility. As one wisely put it, "To whom much is
given, much is required." My job is secure, but these times have placed a
strain over the past few months on my department. Thankfully things are
looking up, but in order to come through these times successfully, my staff
is having to work some incredibly demanding hours of work. Our team is
working extra hours to ensure that our employees are in the best position to
gain business. I have learned through years of leadership experience in
military and civilian life that people respond when leaders lead by example.
So I scheduled myself on nights (Saturday - Thursday - off on the Sabbath)
to demonstrate my commitment to our team. I intend to do this for the next
several weeks as we put some things in place.

As a result of this schedule, the audio teachings during the month of
February will be "touch and go". I thought that I could teach tonight
despite my hectic work schedule, but honestly am too tired to teach tonight.
I worked all night last night and will be working again tonight. I had
planned on teaching and then going to work after my class. I am hopeful that
next week I will be able to teach, but will play things by ear and
communicate the class schedule as we get closer.

It is interesting to note that the Torah reading this week in the Annual
Cycle is Yitro. This reading from the book of Exodus has Yitro's (Jethro's)
counsel to Moses regarding delegation lest he wear out! He also says that it
"this thing" is not good. Talk about a timely message for me! I plan to
drink these words in this week. I also intend to write some of my thoughts
on the Torah Portion this week, as this reading contains the 10 words (10
Commandments) - or Testimony. 

My true passion is in learning, teaching and seeking to live according to
the principles of the Hebrew Bible. At this time I am taking the principles
to my daily life - seeking to tie Torah study with an occupation. 

I assure you that this is only temporary and as soon as I can get back to
the pulpit I will do so - perhaps as early as next weekend. I just wanted to
be open with all of you. I would ask that you communicate this message far
and wide to those who have faithfully listened to the teachings so that they
understand what is going on. I accept no salary from the congregation or for
my teaching and have therefore always worked hard to support my family
through other means. Many people depend on me to lead effectively. I pray
that you understand. 

Shalom to all of you and I will be communicating the status as soon as I
know something new.

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 

 


  _____  


Who's never won? Biggest
<http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi0
0000003>  Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/19f9e9c1/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 12:49:06 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 10:49:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and
	Q)?
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
	<200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <275322.47232.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Steve, or others,
I lost the link to the place to get DNA checked. Could you give me that link again? And, is there a particular test that one should ask for?

Thanks,
Tracy




________________________________
From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and Q)?

James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is
dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in
Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to
some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of
the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/
Ukraine/Osettia.

See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel,Brit-Am Now 147, Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite
Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for
"Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish
connection of the SNP Mutation M269,which I
have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and
when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any
desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on
some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went
for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to
Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or
Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it
seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In
fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the
correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his
conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19,
"Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim is the most
probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male
descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA
haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting
this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to
Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called
"Secular" Educational Establishment and Population
Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/7085d9b6/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Sun Feb  8 13:37:38 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 11:37:38 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P
	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <275322.47232.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
	<200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
	<275322.47232.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200902081937.n18JbaLO022904@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

Hi Tracy,

Try: http://www.ysearch.org/  who has my records stored points you 
to: http://www.familytreedna.com/


BTW, my wife is a Grey Douglas... how Scottish can you get?!! Hashem 
has matched me up with another Scot!!


Steve

At 10:49 AM 2/8/2009, you wrote:
>Steve, or others,
>I lost the link to the place to get DNA checked. Could you give me 
>that link again? And, is there a particular test that one should ask for?
>
>Thanks,
>Tracy
>
>
>From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18:03 AM
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup 
>P (R and Q)?
>
>James, Hanoch, Patty, All,
>
>FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup 
>R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and 
>is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may 
>be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to 
>be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ 
>Ukraine/Osettia.
>
>See: <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html>"Brit-Am 
>Now"-1250,  <http://britam.org/benjamin.html>Benjamin Tribe of 
>Israel, <http://britam.org/now/now147.html>Brit-Am Now 147 , 
><http://britam.org/now/955Now.html>Brit-Am Now 955, 
><http://britam.org/khazars.html>"KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in 
>Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's 
>http://britam.org site).
>
>See also: 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho 
>for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have 
>and found my closest match with some Scots living now.
>
>Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, 
>and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor 
>had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some 
>deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for 
>the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to 
>Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too.....
>
>Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or 
>Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>>Patty,
>>
>>Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, 
>>it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite 
>>tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather 
>>astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
>>
>>I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is 
>>getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:
>>
>>>Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>>>
>>>
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>Ephraim is the most probable 
>>>founder of the 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>Y-Chromosome 
>>>DNA 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>Haplogroup 
>>>P, which is one of the primary suggestions in 
>>><http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>Israelite 
>>>Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and 
>>>female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA 
>>>haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. 
>>>Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>R and 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>Q to 
>>>Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called 
>>>"Secular" Educational Establishment and 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>Population 
>>>Geneticists in general.
>>>
>>><http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html>http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>
>_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/d32cebdc/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 19:18:50 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:18:50 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS64A680973519EFA48ACF4BABF0@phx.gbl>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>
	<COL119-DS64A680973519EFA48ACF4BABF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3ECB2F3D485F4F36B5A302AA3FF08276@bettylaptop>

Jessica, I was not aware of the fires either until I saw your post.  I am so
thankful that you are safe and so sorry to hear about the other 35 dear
people or so others that lost their lives and all the innocent animals that
perished and the damage to your beautiful country.  How wonderful that you
are part of the volunteer fire dept that went out to help and were able to
contain and extinguish the fire.  Your little koala story was precious..

 

It is good to know that you are always there, even if in the background,
Jessica, but it is a special treat when your write.  I hope this email finds
you well.  I know you are busy these days with so many demands on your life.
I often think of you and remember your mother and wonder how she is doing.
For a while, I was praying with her with more frequency, but I must confess,
have not done so recently, but seeing your email has again brought her to my
mind and I will try to pray for her daily.

 

Yes, it sounds like Australia needs rain as well as Israel.  I will put that
in my prayers too.

 

B'ahava v'shavuah tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:31 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

Jessica,

 

Just read Helen and your emails this morning.  Am so terribly sorry to hear
of the fires causing loss/danger of/to lives, homes and livelihoods.  I
seldom turn my TV on and did not know.  Baruch Hashem that you are safe!  

 

I loved the story of your little, lost Koala.  What precious photos those
must have been.  

 

It's wonderful to read your emails.  I know you seldom have time to write,
but your writing always relays the marvelous spirit of our Australian
brothers.  Having been privileged to visit the land of Oz once, I very much
appreciate all that you say.  I dearly loved the Australians, and when you
write of their dropping everything to pitch in  and help one another, I see
the faces of those dear ones I got to know.  I found yours to be such an
extraordinary nation! 

 

Am now praying for Australia, as well as Israel to be blessed with His
Rain/rain.

 

My love to you,

 

Pat  

 

From: Vegemite <mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com>  Rose 

Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:51 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

Hello Helen,
Thank you for your enquiry and concern regarding my welfare during this
horrendous heatwave. 
This has been a once in 100 year event, and the duration of the extreme
temperatures has exceeded previous records.
I am a volunteer member of the local Bush Fire Service and we have had only
a small number of call outs during this peak time - fortunately. On
Australia Day, 26th January, we were called to a raging fire in the
Onkaparinga Gorge (check it out on google earth). We had brigades on all
sides of the Gorge and strike teams coming in to assist the ground crews and
fixed wing water bombers and helicopters including the Ericsson Sky Crane
attacking from the air. Our little township was threatened when the wind
changed and pushed the fire towards us. But this time - human power won and
the fire was finally out the next day around noon. 
Another fire broke out on the hill directly across the paddocks from where I
live (about 2 kilometres) and directly above our little township (about 1
kilometre), but was put out after about 10 hours of furious firefighting
efforts. 
There was a fire in one of the vineyards last Friday, but was put out within
a couple of hours. Unfortunately the property owners lost about an acre and
a half of their vineyard. 
Many of the vineyards have lost a great deal of their crops during the heat.
The grapes have shrivelled on the vines. And of course it isn't just the
vineyards that are suffering. Stone fruit growers and market gardeners have
all had their share of losses as well. 
Many people (I think the number is about 35 or so in South Australia) have
died as a result of the heat and untold animals have also perished. 
A young male koala made his way into my garden, exhausted and dehydrated. My
neighbour and I set up large dishes of water for him and encouraged him to
drink, which he did after a while.  I assisted him to get into one of the
shallow dishes to cool down. He got the message and was quite happy to lay
down in the water, which was shaded by large trees. The poor little fellow
was terribly thin and had very little energy. My neighbour contacted one of
the wildlife parks to find out what to do for him, as we couldn't get him to
eat. She was told that it is normal for koalas to not eat during severe heat
and could survive for a couple of weeks so long as he had water. He allowed
us to touch him and stroke his back and rub his ears. He even let me feel
around his tummy to check if he was a boy or a girl. (Girls have a pouch) He
revived and stayed with us for about 4 or 5 days. I had photos, but being
blonde I deleted them from my memory card before saving them to my computer.
By the time I realised the error, he had moved on. Very disappointing. 
South Australian firefighters are assembling teams to go across the border
into Victoria to assist the firefighters there who have had many more fire
outbreaks with greater intensity than we have had to deal with here. Some of
our local people will be going along and may be away for a week or more. It
happens every year and Australians are renown for throwing themselves into
the fray when required. 
These are all volunteers and many of them are self employed, so they not
only put their lives at risk but also their livelihoods. I am a volunteer
behind the scenes and bow down to those who are out there in scorching
temperatures, battling incredible radiant heat from the fires as well as the
heat from the sun. 
In the early hours of this morning we had a wonderful cool change come
through heralded by thunder and lightning. Fortunately there were no
lightning strikes (at least not in this district). It is sooooooo nice to
finally have the change and I for one am very, very grateful.
I have a friend who works in a centre for the mentally handicapped. He says
it has been a very difficult time for them because the residents are not
able to make rational choices about what type of clothing to wear. Some of
them insist on wearing sweaters and overcoats and totally refuse to change
their ways. The solution was to get them into the swimming pool - fully
clothed if necessary - to protect them. Fortunately the pool is indoors and
fortunately they love the pool. 
Again, Helen, thank you for thinking of me. 
I am always here in the background and find the dialogue posts as always
very, very interesting, informative and sometimes even challenging.  
I will try to  make  some time available to add to my page on the Synagogue
Without Walls very soon. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Helen Lusk wrote: 



Dear Joe:

 

With the raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered
if Jessica is affected,  I believe she lives in this area of the country  .I
hope she is safe and everything all right with her.  Do you have any news of
her status?

 

Kind regards,

 

Helen

 






  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/5a5db0d5/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 20:18:57 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shvat Sameach
Message-ID: <855590370902081818j3f343bbcv98a1dbf93157f624@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

  Tonight - Monday is Tu B'Shvat, the "New Year for trees," in Eretz
Yisrael.  May your love of HaShem, HIS Torah and HIS Land grow, as we pray
that our trees will.

  "For HaSHem your G-d is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks,
fountains, and springs, flowing forth in valleys and hills; A land of wheat,
barley, vines, fig trees and pomegranates; a land of olive oil and date
honey..."  Devarim 8:7-8

   B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),
                    *   Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/708177c0/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 20:31:12 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:31:12 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] At war with Islam?
Message-ID: <855590370902081831j4a459f93uc254495da8e7958c@mail.gmail.com>

  [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
 Daily
Israel Report
Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
  Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx>
Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live [image:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx>
TV <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
Jukebox<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
Pics <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
Services<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
Advertise<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>


Quotes and Notes Corner: At War With Islam? - Part II %Date%
by by from "Back to Sanity" - Arutz 7 Analysts

(IsraelNN.com) In reviewing the question of whether or not Islam is in a
"clash of civilizations" with
Israel<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129654>,
another key source is *Sirat Rasoul-Allah*, a biography of Muhammad collated
by Ibn Ishaq (early 700s CE) which is also treated as supremely
authoritative for an understanding of Islam and its founder.

In that account of Muhammad's campaign against the Jews, the story of
Safiya:

*"The apostle occupied the Jewish forts one after the other, taking
prisoners as he went. Among these were Safiya, the wife of Kinana, the
Khaybar chief, and two female cousins; the apostle chose Safiya for himself.
The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims.*

What became of Kinana, Safiya's groom?

*"Kinana, the husband of Safiya, had been guardian of the tribe's treasures,
and he was brought before the apostle, who asked where they were hidden. But
Kinana refused to disclose the place. Then a Jew came who said, 'I have seen
Kinana walk around a certain ruin every morning.' The apostle asked Kinana,
'Art thou prepared to die if we find thou knewest where the treasure was?'
And he replied, 'Yes.' So the apostle ordered the ruin to be dug up, and
some of the treasure was found. After that Kinana was asked again about the
remainder, but he still refused to tell. The apostle of Allah handed him
over to al-Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until he tells what he knows', and
al-Zubayr kindled a fire on his chest so that he almost expired; then the
apostle gave him to Muhammad b. Maslama, who struck off his head."*

After that, it is probably of little surprise when Ibn Ishaq tells us:

*"When the people of Fadak, a Jewish town nearby, heard what was taking
place they sent emissaries to the apostle to ask him to spare them and they
would abandon to him all their property. He agreed.*

This little arrangement, Ibn Ishaq describes by saying "The people of Fadak
made peace with [Muhammad]..." In this version of "peace" the property of
the people of Fadak "belonged to the apostle of Allah, because he had
conquered it without the aid of cavalry or camels."

Another "Jewish tribe asked that the apostle of Allah should not shed their
blood, but permit them to carry away as much of their property as their
camels could bear. He consented and they loaded as many of their possessions
as they could on their camels, even demolishing their houses that they might
take away the thresholds. Then they left, with their wives, children, and
household goods, and accompanied by their drums, flutes and singers. The
rest they left to the apostle of Allah."

While much of the Ibn Ishaq account of a Jewish tribe's discussion when
besieged by Muhammad and his posse is plainly aimed at confirming Islamic
beliefs, there is one or two sentences that ring true. Reacting to the
suggestion they accept Islam, the Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe supposedly
said: "We shall never abandon the commandments of the Torah, nor substitute
any others for them." Secondly, when contemplating the fate of their
children should they fail to defeat the Muslims, the leader suggested
killing them themselves, saying, "If we perish, we shall perish without
leaving orphans who might suffer evil."

Their discussions didn't help, for according to Ibn Ishaq, the decision -
made "....according to the will of Allah, above the seven firmaments," in
Muhammad's words - was death even after they surrendered.

*"The apostle of Allah imprisoned the Qurayza in Medina while trenches were
dug in the marketplace. Then he sent for the men and had their heads struck
off so that they fell in the trenches. They were brought out in groups, and
among them was Kab, the chief of the tribe. In number, they amounted to six
or seven hundred, although some state it to have been eight or nine hundred.
All were executed. One man turned to his people and said, 'It matters not!
By God's will, the children of Israel were destined for this massacre!' Then
he seated himself and his head was struck off."*

Only one Jewish woman was murdered, instead of being taken as a slave. And
she was reported by Muhammad's wife Aisha as "talking and laughing" with
"good humor". Perhaps it was better to die than to become a slave to the
Muslims, or perhaps the woman was laughing because, as Ibn Ishaq wrote, "She
was the woman who threw a millstone down from the Qurayza fort and killed a
Believer."

Either way, was that heroic Jewish woman at war with Islam? Or was perhaps
Islam at war with her even before Muhammad and his gang arrived at the
Qurayza fort?

And now a little theology from Hadith, *Sahih Muslim* Book 041, Number 6985
- to round out the picture:

*"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews
and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind
a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of
Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad
would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews."*

In case someone will still try and reject all of the foregoing as irrelevant
to the modern struggle of Israel with its Muslim neighbors, let's point out
that that last Hadith appears in the Hamas covenant as a guiding principle.

So, again, is Israel at war with Islam? Well, I don't know, but Israel had
better be prepared to defend itself against it.

And finally, one more Islamic tale of another Jewish woman from Safiya's
tribe who fell into Muhammad's clutches, Zaynab. She tried to poison "the
apostle of Allah" and was discovered. When asked why she did it, Zaynab
replied: "It is no secret to you what my people feel towards you."

*Researched, compiled and presented by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz*
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/262391a1/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 21:13:18 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:13:18 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael
Message-ID: <855590370902081913v4fb753a5s4ed0b91fdeedfb8@mail.gmail.com>

Shema Yisrael chanted with a traditional Mizrachi ('Eastern') melody.
                   * Hanoch*
 Click here: YouTube - ??? ????? - shema
israel<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfF6-TkAnBM&feature=related>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/2a87af58/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sun Feb  8 22:42:55 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 15:12:55 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <3ECB2F3D485F4F36B5A302AA3FF08276@bettylaptop>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>	<COL119-DS64A680973519EFA48ACF4BABF0@phx.gbl>
	<3ECB2F3D485F4F36B5A302AA3FF08276@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <498FB44F.8060004@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/139f0d31/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 23:24:53 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:24:53 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shvat Sameach
In-Reply-To: <855590370902081818j3f343bbcv98a1dbf93157f624@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902081818j3f343bbcv98a1dbf93157f624@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83F3C99F32DE4CBB9DADDED4D573DE2F@bettylaptop>

Thank you, Hanoch, for the reminder.  Yes, Tu B'Shevat the 15th of Shevat,
the "New Year for Trees" is a day that definitely ties us to Eretz Yisrael
and the "good land" that HaShem has promised to His people!  I love all the
symbolism with the trees and their fruit and the connection to the Torah
which is the "Tree of Life!"  We had a little small get together at our
synagogue this evening that was very meaningful to celebrate this lovely
festival. For those of you who don't have a community to celebrate with, one
thing you can do is to go out and buy a new fruit that you have not yet
eaten (at least this year) to enjoy and thank G-d for.

 

B'ahavat HaModelet!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:19 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shvat Sameach

 

Shalom L'Kulchem, 

 

  Tonight - Monday is Tu B'Shvat, the "New Year for trees," in Eretz
Yisrael.  May your love of HaShem, HIS Torah and HIS Land grow, as we pray
that our trees will.

 

  "For HaSHem your G-d is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks,
fountains, and springs, flowing forth in valleys and hills; A land of wheat,
barley, vines, fig trees and pomegranates; a land of olive oil and date
honey..."  Devarim 8:7-8 

                                

   B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),

                       Hanoch

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/ae3c1165/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 23:30:04 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:30:04 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <498FB44F.8060004@y7mail.com>
References: <876655.64020.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><498E56BB.2060309@y7mail.com>	<COL119-DS64A680973519EFA48ACF4BABF0@phx.gbl><3ECB2F3D485F4F36B5A302AA3FF08276@bettylaptop>
	<498FB44F.8060004@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <A19A7F05EFBC441DA7278B86C80A6C55@bettylaptop>

Oh Jessica, I had no idea that the death toll was so high in Victoria, and
growing.this is so terrible! Yes, it does make one pause and give thanks for
all of our blessings. I will look forward to the update regarding your Mum.

 

B'ahava rabba,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Vegemite Rose
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

Dearest Pat and Betty,
Thank you both so much for your thoughts and kind words. 
The death toll in Victoria now stands at 126 and rising as more bodies are
found and burn victims are passing away in the hospitals from their horrific
injuries.
It certainly does make one pause and give thanks for the comforts and safety
we are blessed to receive doesn't it?
The 35-40 who perished in South Australia during the extreme heat were
victims of heat stress and not fire. Even so - it's not a pleasant thought.
Today, here in my neck of the woods, the weather has changed and is quite
cool by comparison to the previous couple of weeks. We are expecting the
temperatures to rise again by the weekend however, and are making the most
of this opportunity to get outside chores completed and shopping done etc
before the heat arrives again.
Please, please, please - when praying for rain in Australia - be sure to ask
for it to fall in South Australia, New South Wales and Victoria. ie: The
south east of Australia.  Queensland is still about 60% underwater and
definitely does not require any more blessings of rain. 
The friendly little koala has been seen again on the property - so I guess
he is not moving too far from the water supply. Perhaps I will yet have
another chance for photographs. 
Lovely to hear from you both.
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica
PS: I will send you a private note regarding my Mum - thank you for keeping
her in your thoughts and prayers Betty.

Betty Givin wrote: 

Jessica, I was not aware of the fires either until I saw your post.  I am so
thankful that you are safe and so sorry to hear about the other 35 dear
people or so others that lost their lives and all the innocent animals that
perished and the damage to your beautiful country.  How wonderful that you
are part of the volunteer fire dept that went out to help and were able to
contain and extinguish the fire.  Your little koala story was precious..

 

It is good to know that you are always there, even if in the background,
Jessica, but it is a special treat when your write.  I hope this email finds
you well.  I know you are busy these days with so many demands on your life.
I often think of you and remember your mother and wonder how she is doing.
For a while, I was praying with her with more frequency, but I must confess,
have not done so recently, but seeing your email has again brought her to my
mind and I will try to pray for her daily.

 

Yes, it sounds like Australia needs rain as well as Israel.  I will put that
in my prayers too.

 

B'ahava v'shavuah tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:31 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

Jessica,

 

Just read Helen and your emails this morning.  Am so terribly sorry to hear
of the fires causing loss/danger of/to lives, homes and livelihoods.  I
seldom turn my TV on and did not know.  Baruch Hashem that you are safe!  

 

I loved the story of your little, lost Koala.  What precious photos those
must have been.  

 

It's wonderful to read your emails.  I know you seldom have time to write,
but your writing always relays the marvelous spirit of our Australian
brothers.  Having been privileged to visit the land of Oz once, I very much
appreciate all that you say.  I dearly loved the Australians, and when you
write of their dropping everything to pitch in  and help one another, I see
the faces of those dear ones I got to know.  I found yours to be such an
extraordinary nation! 

 

Am now praying for Australia, as well as Israel to be blessed with His
Rain/rain.

 

My love to you,

 

Pat  

 

From: Vegemite Rose <mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com>  

Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:51 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

Hello Helen,
Thank you for your enquiry and concern regarding my welfare during this
horrendous heatwave. 
This has been a once in 100 year event, and the duration of the extreme
temperatures has exceeded previous records.
I am a volunteer member of the local Bush Fire Service and we have had only
a small number of call outs during this peak time - fortunately. On
Australia Day, 26th January, we were called to a raging fire in the
Onkaparinga Gorge (check it out on google earth). We had brigades on all
sides of the Gorge and strike teams coming in to assist the ground crews and
fixed wing water bombers and helicopters including the Ericsson Sky Crane
attacking from the air. Our little township was threatened when the wind
changed and pushed the fire towards us. But this time - human power won and
the fire was finally out the next day around noon. 
Another fire broke out on the hill directly across the paddocks from where I
live (about 2 kilometres) and directly above our little township (about 1
kilometre), but was put out after about 10 hours of furious firefighting
efforts. 
There was a fire in one of the vineyards last Friday, but was put out within
a couple of hours. Unfortunately the property owners lost about an acre and
a half of their vineyard. 
Many of the vineyards have lost a great deal of their crops during the heat.
The grapes have shrivelled on the vines. And of course it isn't just the
vineyards that are suffering. Stone fruit growers and market gardeners have
all had their share of losses as well. 
Many people (I think the number is about 35 or so in South Australia) have
died as a result of the heat and untold animals have also perished. 
A young male koala made his way into my garden, exhausted and dehydrated. My
neighbour and I set up large dishes of water for him and encouraged him to
drink, which he did after a while.  I assisted him to get into one of the
shallow dishes to cool down. He got the message and was quite happy to lay
down in the water, which was shaded by large trees. The poor little fellow
was terribly thin and had very little energy. My neighbour contacted one of
the wildlife parks to find out what to do for him, as we couldn't get him to
eat. She was told that it is normal for koalas to not eat during severe heat
and could survive for a couple of weeks so long as he had water. He allowed
us to touch him and stroke his back and rub his ears. He even let me feel
around his tummy to check if he was a boy or a girl. (Girls have a pouch) He
revived and stayed with us for about 4 or 5 days. I had photos, but being
blonde I deleted them from my memory card before saving them to my computer.
By the time I realised the error, he had moved on. Very disappointing. 
South Australian firefighters are assembling teams to go across the border
into Victoria to assist the firefighters there who have had many more fire
outbreaks with greater intensity than we have had to deal with here. Some of
our local people will be going along and may be away for a week or more. It
happens every year and Australians are renown for throwing themselves into
the fray when required. 
These are all volunteers and many of them are self employed, so they not
only put their lives at risk but also their livelihoods. I am a volunteer
behind the scenes and bow down to those who are out there in scorching
temperatures, battling incredible radiant heat from the fires as well as the
heat from the sun. 
In the early hours of this morning we had a wonderful cool change come
through heralded by thunder and lightning. Fortunately there were no
lightning strikes (at least not in this district). It is sooooooo nice to
finally have the change and I for one am very, very grateful.
I have a friend who works in a centre for the mentally handicapped. He says
it has been a very difficult time for them because the residents are not
able to make rational choices about what type of clothing to wear. Some of
them insist on wearing sweaters and overcoats and totally refuse to change
their ways. The solution was to get them into the swimming pool - fully
clothed if necessary - to protect them. Fortunately the pool is indoors and
fortunately they love the pool. 
Again, Helen, thank you for thinking of me. 
I am always here in the background and find the dialogue posts as always
very, very interesting, informative and sometimes even challenging.  
I will try to  make  some time available to add to my page on the Synagogue
Without Walls very soon. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Helen Lusk wrote: 



Dear Joe:

 

With the raging wild fires in Australia still on our newscasts, I wondered
if Jessica is affected,  I believe she lives in this area of the country  .I
hope she is safe and everything all right with her.  Do you have any news of
her status?

 

Kind regards,

 

Helen

 

 
 





  _____  



 
 
 
_______________________________________________
  
  _____  


_______________________________________________

 





  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/fc665e09/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 23:34:03 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:34:03 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the
	Doubletreein	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <9F57BA0B-5B59-456F-8A9D-CEBABABB1477@earthlink.net>
References: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net><0c3201c98991$ea676e40$bf364ac0$@com>
	<9F57BA0B-5B59-456F-8A9D-CEBABABB1477@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DA6B58123F3940668D3D0D3FA91B43AC@bettylaptop>



Elisheva/Betty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:53 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletreein
Charlotte

We certainly want music and I am hoping you all with John, Tracy, and  
others can present our "Ephramite CD" but let's discuss the details  
one-on-one, logistics, arrangements, etc. I don't want you to get  
saddled with all the costs and responsibility. More later, but the  
meeting would not be the same without you.

James


On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Patty wrote:

> Hi James and All,
>
> Dave and I will be coming to this, do you want us to provide the music
> again? Let us know, okay?
>
> Love,
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:54 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
> Charlotte
>
> I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the
> Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual
> meeting again this year!
>
> We will be sending out information about the details of the program
> later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with
> a block of rooms on hold.
>
> The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this
> location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants
> conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold
> the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is
> an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full
> kitchens.
>
> I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for
> more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out--
> as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more
> widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a
> chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a
> significantly larger crowd than we did last year.
>
> This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and
> you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.
> If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask
> the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as
> well but the three nights are guaranteed.
>
> You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,
> tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this
> special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,
> but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.
>
> Address:
>
> 6300 Morrison Boulevard
> Charlotte, NC 28211
>
> Web site:
>
>
http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites
> -Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do
>
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>
> James
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 23:38:13 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:38:13 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the
	Doubletreein	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <9F57BA0B-5B59-456F-8A9D-CEBABABB1477@earthlink.net>
References: <568ABF1F-C951-4F0D-B07E-4148ECB90191@earthlink.net><0c3201c98991$ea676e40$bf364ac0$@com>
	<9F57BA0B-5B59-456F-8A9D-CEBABABB1477@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BE638A2F46B0430B95BA10E3E1F3304D@bettylaptop>

I am marking the date on my calendar. Thanks, James for the advance notice,
and I agree about the music: it wouldn't be the same without you and Dave,
Patty, and of course John, Sherry and Tracy.  I can hardly wait to hear the
new "Ephramite CD!"

The time will be here before we know it, and G-d willing we can all make it
back, with some new people as well!

Shavua tov all,

Elisheva/Betty


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:53 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletreein
Charlotte

We certainly want music and I am hoping you all with John, Tracy, and  
others can present our "Ephramite CD" but let's discuss the details  
one-on-one, logistics, arrangements, etc. I don't want you to get  
saddled with all the costs and responsibility. More later, but the  
meeting would not be the same without you.

James


On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Patty wrote:

> Hi James and All,
>
> Dave and I will be coming to this, do you want us to provide the music
> again? Let us know, okay?
>
> Love,
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:54 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Annual Meeting at the Doubletree in
> Charlotte
>
> I am very pleased to announce that I have been able to book the
> Doubletree Guest Suites at Southpark in Charlotte for our UIWU annual
> meeting again this year!
>
> We will be sending out information about the details of the program
> later but I wanted to let people know we have the hotel arranged, with
> a block of rooms on hold.
>
> The dates are April 24-26 (Friday through Sunday). Not only is this
> location in the best part of the city, with shops and restaurants
> conveniently located within walking distance, but I was able to hold
> the same price for rooms at $99 per night as we got last year. This is
> an amazingly low price since these are deluxe suite rooms with full
> kitchens.
>
> I have blocked off 30 rooms to begin with and though we can ask for
> more I would suggest booking them soon to be sure we do not run out--
> as we did last year. Although we will publicize the meeting more
> widely soon, I wanted to give everyone on this Dialogue List to have a
> chance to go head and book rooms first. I am expecting we might have a
> significantly larger crowd than we did last year.
>
> This meeting rate applies to Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights and
> you can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price.
> If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask
> the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as
> well but the three nights are guaranteed.
>
> You can call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations,
> tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this
> special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall,
> but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations.
>
> Address:
>
> 6300 Morrison Boulevard
> Charlotte, NC 28211
>
> Web site:
>
>
http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites
> -Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do
>
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>
> James
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb  8 23:49:34 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:49:34 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
In-Reply-To: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au>
References: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>

Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters
going on in your country.  Baruch HaShem that you are okay.  How about the
other Aussies on our list?  Have you heard anything?  I am thinking of Brian
and Catherine, but it seems that there are others?  Please let us know if
you have heard anything.  Joining you in prayer for the victims and their
families.so very very sad!

 

Shalom v'ahava,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires | NEWS.com.au

 

Shalom Helen,

thank you for your concern regarding Jessica. 
She has obviously replied to your email.
Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during
this catastrophe ?

Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen to
84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian
history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is very
hard to comprehend.
Victoria, South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling in
temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.

When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing themselves
for strong winds and possible fire storms.
Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not
eventuate.
Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.

Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia, my home state ,60% of the
State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching with
more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a  path of destruction from the
inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral Sea. 

It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being
hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole region
from the Sunshine Coast, through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were devastated
from these storms.

I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that
mourn.
I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time
and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.

http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#
<http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html> 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/53e2baf4/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Feb  9 00:35:50 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:05:50 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 
In-Reply-To: <776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>
References: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au>
	<776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <498FCEC6.4010605@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/8ab7d7ba/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: r337797_1533156.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/8ab7d7ba/attachment.jpg 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 07:09:44 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 05:09:44 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Birkat Kohanim
Message-ID: <855590370902090509m25afee93h5abb981c8dd2bcae@mail.gmail.com>

The Birkat Kohanim chanted on the Intermediate days of Pesah with the
traditional Ashkenazi (European) niggun (melody).

Click here: YouTube - Birkat Cohanim Chol Hamoed Pesach
5767<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVLTZFNoZfg>

                           * Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/d24e43d5/attachment.html 

From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 07:18:31 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:18:31 +1100
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
Message-ID: <BLU108-DS35BA243D7B1D57E9BEAD8C8BC0@phx.gbl>

It's good to hear you're safe Jessica, Prayers for rain in this part of the world are certainly needed - the fires have been devastating.  It's left everyone in Victoria (and country wide) with a feeling of numbness, but also has placed everything in perspective.  I feel so very fortunate and lucky & blessed in comparison to those who have lost everything - homes and loved ones.  There are no words to express the deep feeling of sorrow when tragedy like this happens so close to 'home'.  Yet my thoughts go to Israel, how much more she has suffered and has been continually over looked and criticized by the same media who covered so eloquently the tragic events here.  Let's pray for the peace of Jerusalem - for that wonderful promised time when there is peace for us all.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/92178f29/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Feb  9 09:53:54 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:53:54 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael
In-Reply-To: <855590370902081913v4fb753a5s4ed0b91fdeedfb8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902081913v4fb753a5s4ed0b91fdeedfb8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D623E3C9A884FF79594CD697F2A2699@bettylaptop>

WOW!!! What a moving rendition of Shema Yisrael!   It has left me astounded
and speechless with its power.the melody and the accompanying photos are
moving beyond words.it is as if the one who is chanting is calling out to
the four corners of the earth to call us home!

 

Toda rabba, Hanoch!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:13 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael

 

Shema Yisrael chanted with a traditional Mizrachi ('Eastern') melody.

                    Hanoch

Click <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfF6-TkAnBM&feature=related>  here:
YouTube - ??? ????? - shema israel 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/805baf0b/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 10:27:44 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:27:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 
In-Reply-To: <498FCEC6.4010605@y7mail.com>
References: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au><776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>
	<498FCEC6.4010605@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS62B41E1395DC17AC9941DBABC0@phx.gbl>

Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help the victims and families of these fires?

Love,

Pat 


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 


The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging. 
Jessica


Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs



 
Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at Beechworth, causing the most concern.
The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars destroyed in the firestorms.
More than 700 homes have been destroyed.

Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria has broken containment lines.
The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest electricity generator. 

"We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," she said.
"Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," she said.

A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain aware of changing conditions.
Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory to fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens Centre in Smith Street.

The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire swept through causing complete devastation.
Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a crime scene.
It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a popular tourist town.
Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the area is being treated as a crime scene.


In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road after his house went up in less than two minutes.
"The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
"I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept going."

Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his house from the flames.
He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, and found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
"And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
"He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
"That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying to keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own property."
Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the height of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
He says more families have arrived since.

Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
"Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses there, everybody's dead."
About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two days.
"Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin grafting," she said.

Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the Government's bushfire strategy.
The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in the week.
Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend fires is overwhelming.
"The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
"And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the greatest proportions."

Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the Victorian bushfire emergency.
New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue specialists.
They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, to join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on standby.
One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the victims of the fires.
Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find the bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
"They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
"They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who other who are over-stretched."

The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are donating money.
"We're being inundated," he said.
"We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us but the other agencies and government response to the special appeal that's been set up."
The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response so far.
It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large donations from state governments and corporations.



Betty Givin wrote: 
  Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters going on in your country.  Baruch HaShem that you are okay.  How about the other Aussies on our list?  Have you heard anything?  I am thinking of Brian and Catherine, but it seems that there are others?  Please let us know if you have heard anything.  Joining you in prayer for the victims and their families.so very very sad!

   

  Shalom v'ahava,

   

  Elisheva/Betty

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires | NEWS.com.au

   

  Shalom Helen,

  thank you for your concern regarding Jessica. 
  She has obviously replied to your email.
  Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during this catastrophe ?

  Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is very hard to comprehend.
  Victoria, South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.

  When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
  Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not eventuate.
  Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.

  Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia, my home state ,60% of the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a  path of destruction from the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral Sea. 

  It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole region from the Sunshine Coast, through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were devastated from these storms.

  I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that mourn.
  I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.

  http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/8f700143/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/8f700143/attachment.jpe 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 11:37:09 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:37:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael
In-Reply-To: <0D623E3C9A884FF79594CD697F2A2699@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370902081913v4fb753a5s4ed0b91fdeedfb8@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D623E3C9A884FF79594CD697F2A2699@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS14756569BA251B011C848BABC0@phx.gbl>

Yes, thank you so much, Hanoch.  This video is beyond incredible!  I plan to let it play over and over, every day!  

Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 10:53 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael


WOW!!! What a moving rendition of Shema Yisrael!   It has left me astounded and speechless with its power.the melody and the accompanying photos are moving beyond words.it is as if the one who is chanting is calling out to the four corners of the earth to call us home!

 

Toda rabba, Hanoch!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:13 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shema Yisrael

 

Shema Yisrael chanted with a traditional Mizrachi ('Eastern') melody.

                    Hanoch

Click here: YouTube - ??? ????? - shema israel 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/a1c1d642/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Feb  9 14:08:14 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:08:14 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS35BA243D7B1D57E9BEAD8C8BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS35BA243D7B1D57E9BEAD8C8BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0D36AB00AE6D4949AD2AD716D2011A3F@bettylaptop>

Hi Catherine,

 

I am sorry that I have not officially welcomed you to our list.  I must have
missed your first few emails.  So a late welcome to the list and Baruch
HaShem that you are safe as well.  Yes, this is a horrific tragedy.words
just cannot describe it.  Yes, the peace of Jerusalem is so important to
pray for and the peace of the whole world.I just wonder sometimes when
HaShem is going to just say, "Enough!"

 

Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia

 

It's good to hear you're safe Jessica, Prayers for rain in this part of the
world are certainly needed - the fires have been devastating.  It's left
everyone in Victoria (and country wide) with a feeling of numbness, but also
has placed everything in perspective.  I feel so very fortunate and lucky &
blessed in comparison to those who have lost everything - homes and loved
ones.  There are no words to express the deep feeling of sorrow when tragedy
like this happens so close to 'home'.  Yet my thoughts go to Israel, how
much more she has suffered and has been continually over looked and
criticized by the same media who covered so eloquently the tragic events
here.  Let's pray for the peace of Jerusalem - for that wonderful promised
time when there is peace for us all.  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/993d8798/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 14:32:20 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:32:20 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again
Message-ID: <COL119-DS138625738F19FAD8F9C093BABC0@phx.gbl>

Please pray for Rudy again.  He was taken to the hospital today with 103 degree temperature.  That's all I know at this time.

Thank you so much,

Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/f6fbe589/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 16:20:01 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:20:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Lawmakers in 20 states move to reclaim sovereignty
Message-ID: <690940.2650.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




Lawmakers in 20 states move to reclaim sovereignty

Obama's $1 trillion deficit-spending 'stimulus plan' seen as last straw
Posted: February 06, 2009
11:50 pm Eastern

By Jerome R. Corsi
? 2009 WorldNetDaily


Oklahoma Republican state Sen. Randy Brogdon NEW YORK ? As the Obama administration attempts to push through Congress a nearly $1 trillion deficit spending plan that is weighted heavily toward advancing typically Democratic-supported social welfare programs, a rebellion against the growing dominance of federal control is beginning to spread at the state level.

So far, eight states have introduced resolutions declaring state sovereignty under the Ninth and Tenth Amendment to the Constitution, including Arizona, Hawaii, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, Oklahoma and Washington.

Analysts expect that in addition, another 20 states may see similar measures introduced this year, including Alaska, Alabama, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Nevada, Maine and Pennsylvania.

"What we are trying to do is to get the U.S. Congress out of the state's business," Oklahoma Republican state Sen. Randy Brogdon told WND.

(Story continues below)


 	

 

"Congress is completely out of line spending trillions of dollars over the last 10 years putting the nation into a debt crisis like we've never seen before," Brogdon said, arguing that the Obama stimulus plan is the last straw taxing state patience in the brewing sovereignty dispute.

"This particular 111th Congress is the biggest bunch of over-reachers and underachievers we've ever had in Congress," he said.

"A sixth-grader should realize you can't borrow money to pay off your debt, and that is the Obama administration's answer for a stimulus package," he added.

The Ninth Amendment reads, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Tenth Amendment specifically provides, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Brogdon, the lead sponsor of the Oklahoma state senate version of the sovereignty bill, has been a strong opponent of extending the plan to build a four-football-fields-wide Trans-Texas Corridor parallel to Interstate-35 to Oklahoma, as WND reported.

Rollback federal authority

The various sovereignty measures moving through state legislatures are designed to reassert state authority through a rollback of federal authority under the powers enumerated in the Constitution, with the states assuming the governance of the non-enumerated powers, as required by the Tenth Amendment.

The state sovereignty measures, aimed largely at the perceived fiscal irresponsibility of Congress in the administrations of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, have gained momentum with the $1 trillion deficit-spending economic stimulus package the Obama administration is currently pushing through Congress.

Particularly disturbing to many state legislators are the increasing number of "unfunded mandates" that have proliferated in social welfare programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, in which bills passed by Congress dictate policy to the states without providing funding.

In addition, the various state resolutions include discussion of a wide range of policy areas, including the regulation of firearms sales (Montana) and the demand to issue drivers licenses with technology to embed personal information under the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and the Real ID Act (Michigan).

Hawaii's measure calls for a new state constitutional convention to return self-governance, a complaint that traces back to the days it was a U.S. territory, prior to achieving statehood in 1959.

"We are trying to send a message to the federal government that the states are trying to reclaim their sovereignty," Republican Rep. Matt Shea, the lead sponsor of Washington's sovereignty resolution told WND.

"State sovereignty has been eroded in so many areas, it's hard to know where to start," he said. "There are a ton of federal mandates imposed on states, for instance, on education spending and welfare spending."

Shea said the Obama administration's economic stimulus package moving through Congress is a "perfect example."

"In the state of Washington, we have increased state spending 33 percent in the last three years and hired 6,000 new state employees, often using federal mandates as an excuse to grow state government," he said. "We need to return government back down to the people, to keep government as close to the local people as possible."

Shea is a private attorney who serves with the Alliance Defense Fund, a nationwide network of about 1,000 attorneys who work pro-bono. As a counter to the ACLU, the alliance seeks to protect and defend religious liberty, the sanctity of life and traditional family values.

Republican state Rep. Judy Burges, the primary sponsor of the sovereignty resolution in the Arizona House, told WND the federal government "has been trouncing on our constitutional rights."

"The real turning point for me was the Real ID act, which involved both a violation of the Fourth Amendments rights against the illegal searches and seizures and the Tenth Amendment," she said.

Burges told WND she is concerned that the overreaching of federal powers could lead to new legislation aimed at confiscating weapons from citizens or encoding ammunition.

"The Real ID Act was so broadly written that we are afraid that it involves the potential for "mission-creep," that could easily involve confiscation of firearms and violations of the Second Amendment," she said.

Burges said she has been surprised at the number of e-mails she has received in support of the sovereignty measure.

"We are a sovereign state in Arizona, not a branch of the federal government, and we need to be treated as such, she insisted.





"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon Feb  9 19:02:49 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:02:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS138625738F19FAD8F9C093BABC0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS138625738F19FAD8F9C093BABC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0daa01c98b1b$4d98fee0$e8cafca0$@com>

Okay, Pat, you got it. Please keep us updated.

 

Love,

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again

 

Please pray for Rudy again.  He was taken to the hospital today with 103
degree temperature.  That's all I know at this time.

 

Thank you so much,

 

Pat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/5fe88290/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 22:35:42 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 23:35:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again
In-Reply-To: <0daa01c98b1b$4d98fee0$e8cafca0$@com>
References: <COL119-DS138625738F19FAD8F9C093BABC0@phx.gbl>
	<0daa01c98b1b$4d98fee0$e8cafca0$@com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS11A777A21AA64F795C674ABABD0@phx.gbl>

The latest I've heard about Rudy is to pray about a blood clot.  Thank you, Patty and everyone.

Pat  


From: Patty 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again


Okay, Pat, you got it. Please keep us updated.

 

Love,

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy in hospital again

 

Please pray for Rudy again.  He was taken to the hospital today with 103 degree temperature.  That's all I know at this time.

 

Thank you so much,

 

Pat



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090209/792ec869/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Feb  9 23:44:11 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:14:11 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Fires in Australia
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS35BA243D7B1D57E9BEAD8C8BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS35BA243D7B1D57E9BEAD8C8BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4991142B.9030602@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/db049109/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Feb  9 23:53:22 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:23:22 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS62B41E1395DC17AC9941DBABC0@phx.gbl>
References: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au><776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>	<498FCEC6.4010605@y7mail.com>
	<COL119-DS62B41E1395DC17AC9941DBABC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49911652.3060500@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/337c92af/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/337c92af/attachment.jpe 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Tue Feb 10 02:07:50 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:37:50 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS62B41E1395DC17AC9941DBABC0@phx.gbl>
References: <498EC628.4000804@westnet.com.au><776FCC6AE1B64649B5CB9FF4A6DD6828@bettylaptop>	<498FCEC6.4010605@y7mail.com>
	<COL119-DS62B41E1395DC17AC9941DBABC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <499135D6.9000203@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/1ed47976/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/1ed47976/attachment.jpe 

From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 05:36:25 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:36:25 +1100
Subject: [Dialogue] Books
Message-ID: <BLU108-DS78FDA6C38C1EF87188D7FC8BD0@phx.gbl>

One of the joys of being out of work (and there aren't many trust me!) is having the time to read and study.  It started with James's book I'd ordered and received just before I lost my job - Abrahamic Faith.  It was addictive reading as I know many of you would also attest.  It lead to trips to my local Borders book store where I discovered the joys of Robert Alter's five books of Moses translation - which I duly finished and have started again.  Thankfully I'd been given $50 gift voucher so was able to buy Robert Alter's translation which is something I know I'll get years of joy from.  Tonight I decided to try James's Jesus Dynasty and again it's addictive!  I can't put it down.  When I get another job I'll purchase it (pray I'll get work soon), but until then I'll continue my nightly visits.  

 

I love your writing James.  You have a talent for story telling as well being a wonderful historian.  I 'discovered' you years ago from the original bible website, and I'm waiting in anticipation for when the translation is complete.

 

So finally just a big thank you to James for providing me with continued hours of joy.

 

J Catherine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/d71824ed/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 08:34:28 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:34:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Books
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS78FDA6C38C1EF87188D7FC8BD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS78FDA6C38C1EF87188D7FC8BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <10C7D811-E998-4E21-BDEA-F1E338814EC4@earthlink.net>

Dear Catherine,

I truly am pleased to hear that my writings have been of help to you.  
I think you can get copies of The Jesus Dynasty really cheap on  
Amazon, you might want to check. You can also read many hundreds of  
pages of materials, free of course, on my new Blog, all related to the  
topics covered in my books, see http://jamestabor.com/blog

You might also find Fox's translation of the Torah of great value as  
well.

I hope your job situation is soon resolved.

Warmest best,

James


On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:36 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

> One of the joys of being out of work (and there aren?t many trust  
> me!) is having the time to read and study.  It started with James?s  
> book I?d ordered and received just before I lost my job ? Abrahamic  
> Faith.  It was addictive reading as I know many of you would also  
> attest.  It lead to trips to my local Borders book store where I  
> discovered the joys of Robert Alter?s five books of Moses  
> translation ? which I duly finished and have started again.   
> Thankfully I?d been given $50 gift voucher so was able to buy Robert  
> Alter?s translation which is something I know I?ll get years of joy  
> from.  Tonight I decided to try James?s Jesus Dynasty and again it?s  
> addictive!  I can?t put it down.  When I get another job I?ll  
> purchase it (pray I?ll get work soon), but until then I?ll continue  
> my nightly visits.
>
> I love your writing James.  You have a talent for story telling as  
> well being a wonderful historian.  I ?discovered? you years ago from  
> the original bible website, and I?m waiting in anticipation for when  
> the translation is complete.
>
> So finally just a big thank you to James for providing me with  
> continued hours of joy.
>
> J Catherine
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/15faaf6c/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 08:40:16 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:40:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Books
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-DS78FDA6C38C1EF87188D7FC8BD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU108-DS78FDA6C38C1EF87188D7FC8BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS18D48F4172A9602130E9F1BABD0@phx.gbl>

Yes, Catherine, I so totally agree with your assessment of James' writing.  It IS addictive, and I look forward to each new book with great anticipation.  I also recommend his books to everyone who will listen to me because I believe they will benefit each and every person so much!

Am praising and thanking HaShem that He will direct your steps in your search for a job.

Love,

Pat


From: Catherine Cashmore 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Books


One of the joys of being out of work (and there aren't many trust me!) is having the time to read and study.  It started with James's book I'd ordered and received just before I lost my job - Abrahamic Faith.  It was addictive reading as I know many of you would also attest.  It lead to trips to my local Borders book store where I discovered the joys of Robert Alter's five books of Moses translation - which I duly finished and have started again.  Thankfully I'd been given $50 gift voucher so was able to buy Robert Alter's translation which is something I know I'll get years of joy from.  Tonight I decided to try James's Jesus Dynasty and again it's addictive!  I can't put it down.  When I get another job I'll purchase it (pray I'll get work soon), but until then I'll continue my nightly visits.  

 

I love your writing James.  You have a talent for story telling as well being a wonderful historian.  I 'discovered' you years ago from the original bible website, and I'm waiting in anticipation for when the translation is complete.

 

So finally just a big thank you to James for providing me with continued hours of joy.

 

J Catherine



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/3957b52e/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 12:10:07 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net ( James D. Tabor)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:10:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Dialogue] Reserving Rooms at the Doulbetree for the Charlotte UIWU
	Mtg
Message-ID: <18895768.1234289407599.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Okay, sorry for the delay, but all is clear now to reserve rooms at the Doubletree in Charlotte for our UIWU meeting. Just call: 704-364-2400 and tell them you are with the group: United Israel.

We have 30 one-bedroom suites blocked off at $99 per night--a fantastic rate, and this can be single to quad, that is one to four people in a room. This includes Fri, Sat, and Sun but if you want to ask about arranging earlier or later checkout you can do so, and see if you can get the same rate.

The hotel does have a few double bedroom suites but they are not part of our basic package  and cost $70 more. You need to arrange that separately if any of you are willing to share the space in that way.

If you have any problems of any type ask for Cameron Hall, who is handling our event. Her direct number is 704-927-0051.

My guess is that these rooms will go fast, and if so I will try to get more, but it is best to go ahead and book what you need now, so you can definitely get into our main hotel.

James Tabor


From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 14:11:59 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:11:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
In-Reply-To: <499135D6.9000203@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <718183.71060.qm@web82504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Still praying for the Australian people who have been injured bodily, those who have lost loved ones and homes and everything else and that soon the extreme weather in the country will return to normal. 
?
Have been away since Sunday, with Inju, who had shoulder surgery yesterday. She is doing well and now needs to rest and heal and will?start physical therapy later in the week. Please keep her in your prayers.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen

--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:

From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 3:07 AM


Hi Pat,
The latest news about the Victorian fires is that 173 people are now confirmed deceased. 
So far $25million has been raised for the survivors and families of victims.
Jessica



Patricia Robbins wrote: 

Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help the victims and families?of these?fires?
?
Love,
?
Pat?




From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 


The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging. 
Jessica

Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs



 
Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at Beechworth, causing the most concern.
The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars destroyed in the firestorms.
More than 700 homes have been destroyed.

Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria has broken containment lines.
The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest electricity generator. 
"We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," she said.
"Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," she said.

A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain aware of changing conditions.
Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory to fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens Centre in Smith Street.

The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire swept through causing complete devastation.
Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a crime scene.
It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a popular tourist town.
Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the area is being treated as a crime scene.

In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road after his house went up in less than two minutes.
"The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
"I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept going."

Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his house from the flames.
He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, and found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
"And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
"He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
"That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying to keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own property."
Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the height of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
He says more families have arrived since.

Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
"Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses there, everybody's dead."
About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two days.
"Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin grafting," she said.
Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the Government's bushfire strategy.
The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in the week.
Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend fires is overwhelming.
"The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
"And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the greatest proportions."
Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the Victorian bushfire emergency.
New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue specialists.
They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, to join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on standby.
One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the victims of the fires.
Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find the bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
"They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
"They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who other who are over-stretched."
The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are donating money.
"We're being inundated," he said.
"We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us but the other agencies and government response to the special appeal that's been set up."
The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response so far.
It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large donations from state governments and corporations.

Betty Givin wrote: 


#yiv530067690 v\:* {}
#yiv530067690 o\:* {}
#yiv530067690 w\:* {}
#yiv530067690 .shape {}



#yiv530067690 st1\:*{}







Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters going on in your country.? Baruch HaShem that you are okay.? How about the other Aussies on our list?? Have you heard anything?? I am thinking of Brian and Catherine, but it seems that there are others?? Please let us know if you have heard anything.? Joining you in prayer for the victims and their families?so very very sad!
?
Shalom v?ahava,
?

Elisheva/Betty
?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria 's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
?
Shalom Helen,

thank you for your concern regarding Jessica. 
She has obviously replied to your email.
Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during this catastrophe ?

Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is very hard to comprehend.
Victoria , South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.

When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not eventuate.
Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.

Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia , my home state ,60% of the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a? path of destruction from the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral Sea . 

It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole region from the Sunshine Coast , through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were devastated from these storms.

I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that mourn.
I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.

http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
_______________________________________________
  


_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/9bb3a398/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/9bb3a398/attachment.jpe 

From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 15:07:00 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:07:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
Message-ID: <215242.13435.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:








Still praying for the Australian people who have been injured bodily, those who have lost loved ones and homes and everything else and that soon the extreme weather in the country will return to normal. 
?
Have been away since Sunday, with Inju, who had shoulder surgery yesterday. She is doing well and now needs to rest and heal and will?start physical therapy later in the week. Please keep her in your prayers.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen

--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:

From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 3:07 AM


Hi Pat,
The latest news about the Victorian fires is that 173 people are now confirmed deceased. 
So far $25million has been raised for the survivors and families of victims.
Jessica



Patricia Robbins wrote: 

Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help the victims and families?of these?fires?
?
Love,
?
Pat?




From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 


The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging. 
Jessica

Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs



 
Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at Beechworth, causing the most concern.
The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars destroyed in the firestorms.
More than 700 homes have been destroyed.

Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria has broken containment lines.
The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest electricity generator. 
"We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," she said.
"Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," she said.

A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain aware of changing conditions.
Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory to fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens Centre in Smith Street.

The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire swept through causing complete devastation.
Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a crime scene.
It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a popular tourist town.
Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the area is being treated as a crime scene.

In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road after his house went up in less than two minutes.
"The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
"I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept going."

Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his house from the flames.
He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, and found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
"And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
"He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
"That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying to keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own property."
Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the height of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
He says more families have arrived since.

Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
"Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses there, everybody's dead."
About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two days.
"Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin grafting," she said.
Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the Government's bushfire strategy.
The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in the week.
Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend fires is overwhelming.
"The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
"And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the greatest proportions."
Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the Victorian bushfire emergency.
New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue specialists.
They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, to join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on standby.
One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the victims of the fires.
Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find the bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
"They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
"They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who other who are over-stretched."
The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are donating money.
"We're being inundated," he said.
"We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us but the other agencies and government response to the special appeal that's been set up."
The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response so far.
It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large donations from state governments and corporations.

Betty Givin wrote: 


#yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 v\:* {}
#yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 o\:* {}
#yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 w\:* {}
#yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 .shape {}



#yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 st1\:*{}







Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters going on in your country.? Baruch HaShem that you are okay.? How about the other Aussies on our list?? Have you heard anything?? I am thinking of Brian and Catherine, but it seems that there are others?? Please let us know if you have heard anything.? Joining you in prayer for the victims and their families?so very very sad!
? 
Shalom v?ahava, 
? 

Elisheva/Betty
? 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria 's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
? 
Shalom Helen,

thank you for your concern regarding Jessica. 
She has obviously replied to your email.
Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during this catastrophe ?

Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is very hard to comprehend.
Victoria , South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.

When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not eventuate.
Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.

Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia , my home state ,60% of the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a? path of destruction from the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral Sea . 

It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole region from the Sunshine Coast , through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were devastated from these storms.

I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that mourn.
I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.

http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
_______________________________________________
  


_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
  _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/9d5ad0c0/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/9d5ad0c0/attachment.jpe 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 10 15:56:21 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 07:56:21 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
Message-ID: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/2be24a6d/attachment.html 

From sandrainglis at bigpond.com  Tue Feb 10 16:40:47 2009
From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:40:47 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Disasters in Australia
References: <20090210210719.GYQO4206.nskntingx02p.mx.bigpond.com@www2.sssecure.net>
Message-ID: <B358B3CBD369464D9246F30748D339E1@SPLITPIN>

Shalom everyone,

I do not mean to sound cold toward the victims of the fires in Victoria and 
Southern New South Wales and the Flooding in North Queensland not the Severe 
thunder storms in SE Queensland, but I do believe these events are a result 
of the sin of our people. These events are what we have been told would 
happen if the children of Israel do not turn from their sin of idolatry and 
return to YeHoWaH with all of their heart. This is a wake up call to us, a 
warning should be going out to all Australians to turn back from their sin 
and turn to YeHoWaH with all of their heart.

I live in South East Queensland and have not been affected by any of the 
severe weather which has been going on all around. We have had no severe 
thunderstorms where I live. I thank YeHoWaH for protecting me and my family.

My prayer for all of the victims, those who have survived this terrible 
ordeal is that they may seek YeHoWaH with all of their heart, turn from 
their sin and return to YeHoWaH with their whole heart. Then He will be with 
them and give them protection from the devastating things to come and will 
comfort them in the trials which they have already experienced. I believe we 
are in the beginning of the time of Jacobs trouble and it is only going to 
get worse before Israel turns from their sin and returns to YeHoWaH with all 
of their heart.

I am glad to hear that no one on this forum has been a victim of theses 
events. I will pray for your protection and the protection of all those who 
love and obey YeHoWaH.

Shalom,

Sandra.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:07 AM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 40


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update (Helen Lusk)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:07:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org, uilist at unitedisrael.org
> Message-ID: <215242.13435.qm at web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Still praying for the Australian people who have been injured bodily, 
> those who have lost loved ones and homes and everything else and that soon 
> the extreme weather in the country will return to normal.
>
> Have been away since Sunday, with Inju, who had shoulder surgery 
> yesterday. She is doing well and now needs to rest and heal and will start 
> physical therapy later in the week. Please keep her in your prayers.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Helen
>
> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 3:07 AM
>
>
> Hi Pat,
> The latest news about the Victorian fires is that 173 people are now 
> confirmed deceased.
> So far $25million has been raised for the survivors and families of 
> victims.
> Jessica
>
>
>
> Patricia Robbins wrote:
>
> Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help 
> the victims and families of these fires?
>
> Love,
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> From: Vegemite Rose
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires
>
>
> The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging.
> Jessica
>
> Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs
>
>
>
>
> Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on 
> his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
> Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at 
> Beechworth, causing the most concern.
> The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as 
> authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars 
> destroyed in the firestorms.
> More than 700 homes have been destroyed.
>
> Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria 
> has broken containment lines.
> The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the 
> townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
> An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and 
> residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
> The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked 
> up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest 
> electricity generator.
> "We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," she 
> said.
> "Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," she 
> said.
>
> A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain 
> aware of changing conditions.
> Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten 
> communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory to 
> fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
> The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather 
> conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
> An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people 
> affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens 
> Centre in Smith Street.
>
> The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire 
> swept through causing complete devastation.
> Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria 
> saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a 
> crime scene.
> It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
> Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a 
> popular tourist town.
> Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the 
> area is being treated as a crime scene.
>
> In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven 
> out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
> Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using 
> their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
> Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road after 
> his house went up in less than two minutes.
> "The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man 
> for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
> "I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept going."
>
> Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his house 
> from the flames.
> He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, and 
> found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
> "And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he 
> was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
> "He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services 
> in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
> "That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone 
> burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying to 
> keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own property."
> Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the height 
> of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
> He says more families have arrived since.
>
> Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
> "Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses 
> there, everybody's dead."
> About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated 
> at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
> The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the 
> patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two 
> days.
> "Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the 
> exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin 
> grafting," she said.
> Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
> The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the 
> Government's bushfire strategy.
> The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in the 
> week.
> Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend 
> fires is overwhelming.
> "The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so 
> long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
> "And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the greatest 
> proportions."
> Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the 
> Victorian bushfire emergency.
> New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue 
> specialists.
> They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
> Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, to 
> join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
> The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
> Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief 
> fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on 
> standby.
> One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
> Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the 
> victims of the fires.
> Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find the 
> bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
> About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
> Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be 
> providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
> "They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that 
> it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
> "They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who 
> other who are over-stretched."
> The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its 
> Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
> The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are 
> donating money.
> "We're being inundated," he said.
> "We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us but 
> the other agencies and government response to the special appeal that's 
> been set up."
> The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response 
> so far.
> It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large 
> donations from state governments and corporations.
>
> Betty Givin wrote:
>
>
> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 v\:* {}
> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 o\:* {}
> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 w\:* {}
> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 .shape {}
>
>
>
> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 st1\:*{}
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters 
> going on in your country. Baruch HaShem that you are okay. How about the 
> other Aussies on our list? Have you heard anything? I am thinking of Brian 
> and Catherine, but it seems that there are others? Please let us know if 
> you have heard anything. Joining you in prayer for the victims and their 
> families.so very very sad!
>
> Shalom v'ahava,
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria 's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
>
> Shalom Helen,
>
> thank you for your concern regarding Jessica.
> She has obviously replied to your email.
> Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during 
> this catastrophe ?
>
> Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen 
> to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian 
> history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is 
> very hard to comprehend.
> Victoria , South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling 
> in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.
>
> When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing 
> themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
> Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not 
> eventuate.
> Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.
>
> Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia , my home state ,60% of 
> the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching 
> with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a path of destruction from 
> the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral 
> Sea .
>
> It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being 
> hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole 
> region from the Sunshine Coast , through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were 
> devastated from these storms.
>
> I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that 
> mourn.
> I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time 
> and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.
>
> http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>  _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> -------------- next part --------------
> Skipped content of type multipart/related
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 40
> ****************************************
> 




From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 16:51:40 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:51:40 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
In-Reply-To: <215242.13435.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <215242.13435.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS189135FAD4F8C0D9113155BABD0@phx.gbl>

Will be remembering Inju in prayer, Helen.  Please give her my love.

Pat


From: Helen Lusk 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; uilist at unitedisrael.org 
Subject: Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update




      --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:



              Still praying for the Australian people who have been injured bodily, those who have lost loved ones and homes and everything else and that soon the extreme weather in the country will return to normal. 

              Have been away since Sunday, with Inju, who had shoulder surgery yesterday. She is doing well and now needs to rest and heal and will start physical therapy later in the week. Please keep her in your prayers.

              Kind regards,

              Helen

              --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:

                From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
                Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 3:07 AM


                Hi Pat,
                The latest news about the Victorian fires is that 173 people are now confirmed deceased. 
                So far $25million has been raised for the survivors and families of victims.
                Jessica



                Patricia Robbins wrote: 
                  Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help the victims and families of these fires?

                  Love,

                  Pat 


                  From: Vegemite Rose 
                  Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
                  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
                  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires 


                  The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging. 
                  Jessica

                  Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs



               
              Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
              Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at Beechworth, causing the most concern.
              The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars destroyed in the firestorms.
              More than 700 homes have been destroyed.

              Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria has broken containment lines.
              The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
              An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
              The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest electricity generator. 
              "We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," she said.
              "Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," she said.

              A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain aware of changing conditions.
              Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory to fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
              The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
              An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens Centre in Smith Street.

              The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire swept through causing complete devastation.
              Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a crime scene.
              It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
              Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a popular tourist town.
              Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the area is being treated as a crime scene.

              In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
              Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
              Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road after his house went up in less than two minutes.
              "The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
              "I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept going."

              Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his house from the flames.
              He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, and found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
              "And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
              "He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
              "That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying to keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own property."
              Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the height of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
              He says more families have arrived since.

              Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
              "Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses there, everybody's dead."
              About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
              The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two days.
              "Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin grafting," she said.
              Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
              The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the Government's bushfire strategy.
              The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in the week.
              Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend fires is overwhelming.
              "The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
              "And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the greatest proportions."
              Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the Victorian bushfire emergency.
              New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue specialists.
              They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
              Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, to join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
              The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
              Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on standby.
              One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
              Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the victims of the fires.
              Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find the bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
              About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
              Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
              "They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
              "They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who other who are over-stretched."
              The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
              The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are donating money.
              "We're being inundated," he said.
              "We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us but the other agencies and government response to the special appeal that's been set up."
              The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response so far.
              It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large donations from state governments and corporations.


              Betty Givin wrote: 
                Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters going on in your country.  Baruch HaShem that you are okay.  How about the other Aussies on our list?  Have you heard anything?  I am thinking of Brian and Catherine, but it seems that there are others?  Please let us know if you have heard anything.  Joining you in prayer for the victims and their families?so very very sad!

                 

                Shalom v?ahava, 

                 

                Elisheva/Betty

                 


----------------------------------------------------------------

                From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria 's killer fires | NEWS.com.au

                 

                Shalom Helen,

                thank you for your concern regarding Jessica. 
                She has obviously replied to your email.
                Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring during this catastrophe ?

                Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is very hard to comprehend.
                Victoria , South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.

                When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
                Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not eventuate.
                Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.

                Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia , my home state ,60% of the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a  path of destruction from the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the Coral Sea . 

                It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole region from the Sunshine Coast , through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were devastated from these storms.

                I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those that mourn.
                I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their time and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the communities.

                http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#

                Shalom v'Ahavah
                JOE.

----------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  
------------------------------------------------------------------
              _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  _______________________________________________
 

_______________________________________________
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/4ddffef8/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24699 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/4ddffef8/attachment.jpe 

From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 17:10:26 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:10:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
In-Reply-To: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <929968.6941.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Joe,
?
Thank you for sharing this! What a great way to see a different "angle" of the Ten Commandments.
?
Susie

--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 1:56 PM


Shalom Chaverim,

my absence from the computer has been due to a very taxing work schedule and unrealistic deadlines .

First of all Avigail, how is Rudy faring. I pray that his blood clot and high temperature has not affected his renal function like last time. I pray for his speedy recovery. Please keep us informed.

Thank you all for your concerns and prayers during this time of unprecedented national tragedy in the land down under.
It is not over yet.
One very touching story that has surfaced during this time tells of a family that lost all in the Queensland floods and when they received financial benefits from the Government, without hesitation promptly donated this lifeline to the victims of the bush fires in Victoria. AMAZING.

Finally, before I return to the grindstone, I would like to share an interesting article with you.






The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism 

The Two Great Evils of History by Rabbi Y. Y. Jacobson 

Give Us Two

One of the intriguing things about the Ten Commandments (1) is that they were engraved on two separate tablets. Was G-d short of granite that He needed to use two tablets? Why could He not carve the commandments onto a single stone?
There is the stereotypical Jew-bashing joke about this:
Before coming to the Jews, G-d approached all the nations and asked if they would like to accept the Torah. Each of them refused because of some commandment in the Bible to which they could not possibly adhere. When G-d presented the offer to the Jews, their sole question was: How much do you want for it? To which G-d responded: ?It?s for free.? So the Jews replied: ?Give us two.? 
Yet the issue demands sincere reflection. Why indeed was there a need for two tablets?
Two Versions
The rabbis in the midrash proposed a novel answer. The Ten Commandments, they suggested, were engraved on two tablets, five on each stone, so that they would be read in two directions -- from top to bottom, and from side to side (2).
The simplest way of reading the Ten Commandments is, of course, from top to bottom:On the first stone:
1) I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of Egypt...
2) You shall have no other gods...
3) You shall not swear in G-d's name in vain...
4) Remember the Sabbath...
5) Honor your father and your mother...
And the five commandments engraved on the second tablet:
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your fellow.
10) You shall not covet your fellow?s house; you shall not covet your fellow?s wife ? nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
This was the way of reading the Ten Commandments vertically. Yet due to the fact that the first five commandments were engraved on one stone and the second five on a separate stone, there was another way of reading the commandments -- horizontally instead of vertically, from commandment No. 1 directly to No. 6; from No. 2 to No. 7; 3 -- 8; 4 -- 9; 5 -- 10.
This version of the Ten Commandments would then read like this:
1) I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder. 
2) You shall have no other gods/You shall not commit adultery; 
and so forth with the rest of the commandments.
Yet this explanation begs the question: Why is it necessary to read the Ten Commandments horizontally? What insight can we gain from this alternative reading of the commandments? 
In this essay we will discuss the juxtaposition of the first and sixth commandments: "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder." The significance of this ?horizontal? reading from a historical, political and religious standpoint cannot be overstated. It embodies one of the most stunning aspects of Judaism. What is at stake in this juxtaposition is nothing less than the future of human civilization.
Two Historical Attempts
Two groups have made an attempt to divorce commandment no. 1 from commandment no. 6 -- to sever the idea of a Creator, who conceived the world for a moral purpose, from the imperative to honor the life of another human being. The first group was comprised of the philosophers of the Enlightenment during the 18th and 19th centuries, the second of religious leaders in many and diverse ages. The result for both was moral defeat. The thinkers of the Enlightenment ushered in the Age of Reason and the modern secular era, founded on the belief that the great ideal of ?You shall not murder? did not require the prerequisite of ?I am the Lord Your G-d? in order to be sustained. Religion was not necessary to ensure moral behavior; reason alone, without G-d, would guide humanity into an age of liberty and to the achievement of moral greatness. The sixth commandment could operate successfully independent of the first.
While religion embodied the vision of man standing in a continuous relationship with G-d, the essence of the Enlightenment represented the vision of man without G-d. It was a vision already introduced during the first days of creation near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, by the most sophisticated animal of the time, the serpent. ?You shall be like G-d," it promised Eve (3). Man could, and ought to, replace G-d. Left to his own vices, the thinking went, the human being will achieve greatness.
But the Holocaust spelled the end of this grand faith in the promise of human progress based on human reason. In Auschwitz, the belief that modern man felt a natural empathy for others was ruined forever. The gas chambers were not invented by a primitive, barbaric and illiterate people. To the contrary, this people excelled in sciences and the arts, but nevertheless sent 1.5 million children, and 4.5 million adults, to their deaths solely because they had Jewish blood flowing in their veins. SS guards would spend a day in Auschwitz, gassing as many as 12,000 human beings, and then return home in the evening to pet their dogs and laugh with their wives. 
As the smoke of children ascended from the crematoriums, these charming romantics would enjoy good wine, beautiful women and the moving music of Bach, Mozart and Wagner. They murdered millions of innocents in the name of a developed ethic, and they justified genocide on purely rational grounds.
In "Schindler?s List," there is a scene during the liquidation of the Krakow Ghetto where a little girl hiding in a piano is shot dead by an SS guard. As her little angelic body lay in a river of blood, another guard sits down to play the piano.
First SS guard: Was ist das? Ist das Bach?
Second SS guard: Nein. Mozart.
First SS guard: Mozart?
Second SS guard: Ja. 
And they both marvel at the exquisite music.
This was Nazi Germany at its best.
Elie Wiesel who gripped the world?s imagination with his book "Night," a personal testimony of life and death in Auschwitz, once asked the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who himself lost many members of his family in the Holocaust, how he could believe in G-d after Auschwitz. If G-d existed, Wiesel asked, posing the single greatest challenge to faith, how could He ignore 6 million of His children de-humanized and murdered in the cruelest of fashions?
The Rebbe shed a tear and then replied, ?In whom do you expect me to believe after Auschwitz? In man??
This must remain one of the lasting legacies of Auschwitz. If there is any faith at all left after the extermination of 6 million people, it must glean its vitality from something transcending the human rationale and its properties. If morality is left to be determined exclusively by the human mind, it can become a morality that justifies the guillotine, the gulag and the gas chamber. As Dostoevsky famously put it in "The Brothers Karamazov," ?Where there is no G-d, all is permitted.?
The atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote: ?I cannot see how to refute the arguments for the subjectivity of ethical values , but I find myself incapable of believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I don?t like it.? Russell?s point is critical. Without G-d, we cannot objectively define any behavior as good or evil. As difficult as it is to entertain, no one can objectively claim that gassing a mother and her children is any more evil than killing a mouse. It is all a matter of taste and opinion. The validity and effectiveness of ?You shall not murder? can be sustained only if it is predicated on the foundation of faith in a universal moral creator who gave humanity an absolute and unwavering definition of what constitutes good vs. evil.
Professor Abraham Joshua Heschel, who escaped Warsaw a few weeks before it was invaded and lost most of his family in the Nazi Holocaust, captured this sentiment succinctly: ?If man is not more than human, then he is less then human.? Either we climb to a place beyond ourselves, or we are likely to fall to a place below ourselves. When the vision of the sacred dies in the soul of a person, he or she is capable of becoming a servant of the devil.
Religious Evil
But this is far from the whole picture. While the Enlightenment abandoned commandment no. 1 in favor of no. 6, various religions over the ages abandoned no. 6 in favor of no. 1. Theirs has been the atrocious belief that as long as you believe in the Lord, or in Allah, you can kill and maim whomever you brand an "infidel." 
Whether it is a business executive in New York, or a teen-ager eating a slice of pizza in Jerusalem, or a child on the first day of school in Beslan, or a commuter in Madrid, or a tourist in Bali, or a Chabad couple in Mumbai, if the person is not a member of your faith, G-d wants him or her to die. For the religious fundamentalist, "I am the Lord your G-d" has nothing to do with "You shall not murder." 
This is the greatest perversion of faith. Faith that does not inculcate its followers with the sanctity of every single human life desecrates and erodes the very purpose of faith, which is to elevate the human person to a state beyond personal instinct and prejudice. If you delete ?You shall not murder? from religion, you have detached yourself from ?I am the Lord your G-d.? 
To believe in G-d means to honor the life of every person created in the image of G-d. What the juxtaposition of the two commandments is telling us is that you can?t believe in G-d and murder (3*).
Conversely, if you truly believe that taking the life of another human is wrong -- not just because you lack the means or motive to do so or are afraid of ending up in jail, but because you recognize the transcendent, inviolable value of life -- that's just another way of saying you believe in G-d. For what confers upon human life its radical grace, its transcendent sanctity and its absolute value if not the living presence of G-d imprinted on the face of the human person?
More than 3,300 years ago, Judaism, in the most ennobling attempt to create a society based on justice and peace, established its principle code in the sequence of the two commandments ? ?I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder.? A society without G-d can become monstrous; a society that abandons the eternal and absolute commandment ?You shall not murder? is equally evil. Both are capable of burning children alive during the day and then retiring to sleep with a clear conscience.
The Mountain
The Talmud captures this notion in a rather strange, but intriguing, fashion (4).The Talmud cites a tradition that when Israel approached Sinai, G-d lifted up the mountain, held it over the people's heads and declared: ?Either you accept the Torah, or be crushed beneath the mountain.? (The Talmud bases this tradition on the verse in Exodus, ?And they stood beneath the mountain (5).?) 
This seems ludicrous. What worth is there to a relationship and a covenant accepted through coercion (6)?
The answer is profoundly simple. What G-d was telling the Jewish people is that the creation of societies that honor life and shun cruelty is dependent on education and on the value system inculcated within children of the society. The system of Torah, G-d was suggesting, was the guarantor for life and liberty. If you reject the morality of Torah, if you will lack the courage and conviction to teach the world that ?I am the Lord your G-d? and that I have stated unequivocally ?You shall not murder,? the result will be humanity crushed under a mountain of tyrants.
Sixty-five years since Auschwitz and after one decade of incessant Islamic terrorism, the mountain is hanging over our heads once again. Shall we embrace the path of divine-based morality? Shall we never forget that religion must always be defined by ?You shall not murder (7)??
Footnotes:
1) Exodus chapter 20.
2) Mechilta to Exodus ibid.
3) Genesis 3:5.
3*) The Midrash (Mechiultah ibid.) in discussing the connection between the first and sixth commandments presents the following parable to explain the evil behind murder: ?There was a king who entered a country and put up portraits of himself, and made statues of himself, and minted coins with his image. After a while, the people of the country overturned his portraits, broke his statues and invalidated his coins, thereby reducing the image of the king. ?So, too, one who sheds blood reduces the image of the King, as it is written (Genesis 9:6): "One who spills a man's blood... for in the image of G-d He made man."
4) Talmud, Shabbas 88a.
5) Exodus 19:17.
6) This question is raised among many of the Talmudic commentators. Many answers have been offered. See Tosfos, Eitz Yosef, Pnei Yehoshua, Shabbos Shel Mi and BenYehoyada to Talmud Shabbos ibid. Midrash Tanchumah Noach section 3. Daas Zekeinim Mibbalei Hatosafos on Exodus 19:17. Maharal Tiferes Yisroel ch. 32, Gur Aryeh on Exodus ibid. and Or Chodash p. 45. Sources noted in Pardas Yosef to Exodus ibid. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Pulnah in Ben Poras Yosef Parshas Vayeishev. Torah Or Megilas Esther p. 96c; 118c.
7) This essay is based on a Yiddish letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe written to Dr. Elie Wiesel in 1965 (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 33 pp.255-260) and on a 1962 public address by the Rebbe (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 3 pp. 887-895), and on other sources.
Please note the "mountain" at the end of the article.
Sinai is a derivative of the Hebrew word " Sinat" meaning "hatred."
I found this to be very interesting. 
As if HaShem were saying - the mountain where I gave you Torah will in turn be characterized by the world hating you if you do not uphold the Torah and if you uphold the Torah the world will still hate you.

Food for thought.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.


_______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/29c7f547/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 17:23:36 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:23:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Deputy Attorney General Nominee, David Ogden
Message-ID: <291948.70817.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The Nightmarish Possibility of David Ogden at DOJ
Janice Shaw Crouse
Tuesday, February 10, 2009
Our new president has another big problem with one of his nominees. This one hasn?t made headlines yet, but if he is voted through this week by the Senate Judiciary Committee, you?ll hear plenty ? and it?s a nightmarish possibility. David W. Ogden is President Obama?s nominee for Deputy Attorney General at the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ).


It would be difficult to find a person less desirable to be second in command at the nation?s top law enforcement agency, the person who would enforce the child pornography and obscenity laws. Throughout his 20-year legal career, David Ogden has argued for the rights of the pornographers over the protection of women and children.

Fidelis, a Catholic-based group of political, legal, research, and educational organizations that seek to defend life, faith, and family, has led the way in exposing David Ogden?s record of advocating that judges consider the social sciences, ?worldwide consensus,? and international law to decide controversial cases, especially in cases involving underage ?suffering? litigants who need ?compassion? rather than Constitutional judgment.

Brian Burch, president of Fidelis, presents an air-tight case against Mr. Ogden?s appointment. Ogden, of course, believes that the Constitution is a ?living? document, an argument that is used to enable judges to rule according to their whims rather than by the ?rule of law.? Typically, he also has a record of supporting the whole package of the homosexual agenda and arguing against parental and spousal notification regarding abortion. We have become resigned to Obama legal appointees holding those leftist views, but Ogden takes it even further.

Burch systematically lays out a case against Ogden?s radical views, citing specific legal arguments that he used in cases about abortion (notification and waiting period requirements restrict a woman?s right to ?choose? ?? even in a case involving a 14-year-old girl), and homosexuality (represented professional psychological associations presenting positive arguments for ?gay? parenting, ?gays? in the military and the inheritance of homosexuality as an immutable characteristic).

Ogden goes far beyond the left into radical territory regarding pornography and obscenity. Burch?s memo states that Ogden, while an attorney in private practice, ?filed briefs pushing for gays in the military, for continued racial preferences, and for a virtually unlimited abortion license.? Worse, Ogden argued for Playboy, Penthouse and the ACLU in obscenity and pornography cases. According to Fidelis, Ogden opposed the Children?s Internet Protection Act (CIPA) and the Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act (CPOEA). The CIPA Act includes a provision requiring Internet filters in federally-funded libraries. The CPOEA Act requires verification that models in pornographic films be certified over age 18. Ogden argued that these requirements placed too heavy a burden on pornographers and infringed on filmmakers? Constitutional rights. Ogden pushed for taxpayer funding to publish Playboy in Braille, he tried to get Playboy off the list of
 ?pornographic? magazines, he argued for ?consenting adults? to have telephone sex, and the list goes on and on in terms of his advocacy for lowering the barriers to moving pornography and obscenity into America?s mainstream.

Further, Mr. Ogden supported racial preferences and showed a lack of respect for private property rights. Ironically for a man who is nominated to uphold United States laws, he advocated the use of international law instead of U.S. law in court cases.

This is a man who opposes commonsense laws that have the support of the majority of Americans. He opposes commonsense restrictions on pornographers. With his firmly held belief in a ?living? Constitution that can be adapted to fit the current situation, and his use of social science to ?prove? the arguments he makes rather than depend on the ?rule of law,? this is a dangerous man to be second in command at the Department of Justice.

Legal activism is always a concern, but when coupled with Ogden?s views, it becomes dangerous. In the DOJ position, he could use the courts as a vehicle for advancing the pro-abortion and homosexual agendas. A person in the DOJ position with his views could unleash the porn and obscenity industries and allow them open access to media and public spaces. The DOJ job would give him the opportunity to favor the pornographers over the people in a major way. It would allow him to open up the airways to obscenity and pornography and remove the last protections for our children.

In his confirmation hearings, Mr. Ogden dismissed his actions during his entire legal career as nothing more than his immaturity. Such a cavalier dismissal of the body of work that brought him the nomination is more than disingenuous, it is misleading and dangerous. The Obama administration has already overturned the Mexico City Policy so that the United States now sends funds to support organizations that promote prostitution and abortion around the world. Are we now looking at a future where the United States will also fund the international production and distribution of pornography?


"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--



      


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb 10 20:30:54 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:30:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
In-Reply-To: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <021120090230.28339.4992385C0005EF4D00006EB322230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Beautiful Joe!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>: -------------- 

Shalom Chaverim,

my absence from the computer has been due to a very taxing work schedule and unrealistic deadlines .

First of all Avigail, how is Rudy faring. I pray that his blood clot and high temperature has not affected his renal function like last time. I pray for his speedy recovery. Please keep us informed.

Thank you all for your concerns and prayers during this time of unprecedented national tragedy in the land down under.
It is not over yet.
One very touching story that has surfaced during this time tells of a family that lost all in the Queensland floods and when they received financial benefits from the Government, without hesitation promptly donated this lifeline to the victims of the bush fires in Victoria. AMAZING.

Finally, before I return to the grindstone, I would like to share an interesting article with you.






The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism 
The Two Great Evils of History by Rabbi Y. Y. Jacobson 
Give Us Two
One of the intriguing things about the Ten Commandments (1) is that they were engraved on two separate tablets. Was G-d short of granite that He needed to use two tablets? Why could He not carve the commandments onto a single stone?
There is the stereotypical Jew-bashing joke about this:
Before coming to the Jews, G-d approached all the nations and asked if they would like to accept the Torah. Each of them refused because of some commandment in the Bible to which they could not possibly adhere. When G-d presented the offer to the Jews, their sole question was: How much do you want for it? To which G-d responded: ?It?s for free.? So the Jews replied: ?Give us two.? 
Yet the issue demands sincere reflection. Why indeed was there a need for two tablets?
Two Versions
The rabbis in the midrash proposed a novel answer. The Ten Commandments, they suggested, were engraved on two tablets, five on each stone, so that they would be read in two directions -- from top to bottom, and from side to side (2).
The simplest way of reading the Ten Commandments is, of course, from top to bottom:On the first stone:
1) I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of Egypt...
2) You shall have no other gods...
3) You shall not swear in G-d's name in vain...
4) Remember the Sabbath...
5) Honor your father and your mother...
And the five commandments engraved on the second tablet:
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your fellow.
10) You shall not covet your fellow?s house; you shall not covet your fellow?s wife ? nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
This was the way of reading the Ten Commandments vertically. Yet due to the fact that the first five commandments were engraved on one stone and the second five on a separate stone, there was another way of reading the commandments -- horizontally instead of vertically, from commandment No. 1 directly to No. 6; from No. 2 to No. 7; 3 -- 8; 4 -- 9; 5 -- 10.
This version of the Ten Commandments would then read like this:
1) I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder. 
2) You shall have no other gods/You shall not commit adultery; 
and so forth with the rest of the commandments.
Yet this explanation begs the question: Why is it necessary to read the Ten Commandments horizontally? What insight can we gain from this alternative reading of the commandments? 
In this essay we will discuss the juxtaposition of the first and sixth commandments: "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder." The significance of this ?horizontal? reading from a historical, political and religious standpoint cannot be overstated. It embodies one of the most stunning aspects of Judaism. What is at stake in this juxtaposition is nothing less than the future of human civilization.
Two Historical Attempts
Two groups have made an attempt to divorce commandment no. 1 from commandment no. 6 -- to sever the idea of a Creator, who conceived the world for a moral purpose, from the imperative to honor the life of another human being. The first group was comprised of the philosophers of the Enlightenment during the 18th and 19th centuries, the second of religious leaders in many and diverse ages. The result for both was moral defeat. The thinkers of the Enlightenment ushered in the Age of Reason and the modern secular era, founded on the belief that the great ideal of ?You shall not murder? did not require the prerequisite of ?I am the Lord Your G-d? in order to be sustained. Religion was not necessary to ensure moral behavior; reason alone, without G-d, would guide humanity into an age of liberty and to the achievement of moral greatness. The sixth commandment could operate successfully independent of the first.
While religion embodied the vision of man standing in a continuous relationship with G-d, the essence of the Enlightenment represented the vision of man without G-d. It was a vision already introduced during the first days of creation near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, by the most sophisticated animal of the time, the serpent. ?You shall be like G-d," it promised Eve (3). Man could, and ought to, replace G-d. Left to his own vices, the thinking went, the human being will achieve greatness.
But the Holocaust spelled the end of this grand faith in the promise of human progress based on human reason. In Auschwitz, the belief that modern man felt a natural empathy for others was ruined forever. The gas chambers were not invented by a primitive, barbaric and illiterate people. To the contrary, this people excelled in sciences and the arts, but nevertheless sent 1.5 million children, and 4.5 million adults, to their deaths solely because they had Jewish blood flowing in their veins. SS guards would spend a day in Auschwitz, gassing as many as 12,000 human beings, and then return home in the evening to pet their dogs and laugh with their wives. 
As the smoke of children ascended from the crematoriums, these charming romantics would enjoy good wine, beautiful women and the moving music of Bach, Mozart and Wagner. They murdered millions of innocents in the name of a developed ethic, and they justified genocide on purely rational grounds.
In "Schindler?s List," there is a scene during the liquidation of the Krakow Ghetto where a little girl hiding in a piano is shot dead by an SS guard. As her little angelic body lay in a river of blood, another guard sits down to play the piano.
First SS guard: Was ist das? Ist das Bach?
Second SS guard: Nein. Mozart.
First SS guard: Mozart?
Second SS guard: Ja. 
And they both marvel at the exquisite music.
This was Nazi Germany at its best.
Elie Wiesel who gripped the world?s imagination with his book "Night," a personal testimony of life and death in Auschwitz, once asked the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who himself lost many members of his family in the Holocaust, how he could believe in G-d after Auschwitz. If G-d existed, Wiesel asked, posing the single greatest challenge to faith, how could He ignore 6 million of His children de-humanized and murdered in the cruelest of fashions?
The Rebbe shed a tear and then replied, ?In whom do you expect me to believe after Auschwitz? In man??
This must remain one of the lasting legacies of Auschwitz. If there is any faith at all left after the extermination of 6 million people, it must glean its vitality from something transcending the human rationale and its properties. If morality is left to be determined exclusively by the human mind, it can become a morality that justifies the guillotine, the gulag and the gas chamber. As Dostoevsky famously put it in "The Brothers Karamazov," ?Where there is no G-d, all is permitted.?
The atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote: ?I cannot see how to refute the arguments for the subjectivity of ethical values , but I find myself incapable of believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I don?t like it.? Russell?s point is critical. Without G-d, we cannot objectively define any behavior as good or evil. As difficult as it is to entertain, no one can objectively claim that gassing a mother and her children is any more evil than killing a mouse. It is all a matter of taste and opinion. The validity and effectiveness of ?You shall not murder? can be sustained only if it is predicated on the foundation of faith in a universal moral creator who gave humanity an absolute and unwavering definition of what constitutes good vs. evil.
Professor Abraham Joshua Heschel, who escaped Warsaw a few weeks before it was invaded and lost most of his family in the Nazi Holocaust, captured this sentiment succinctly: ?If man is not more than human, then he is less then human.? Either we climb to a place beyond ourselves, or we are likely to fall to a place below ourselves. When the vision of the sacred dies in the soul of a person, he or she is capable of becoming a servant of the devil.
Religious Evil
But this is far from the whole picture. While the Enlightenment abandoned commandment no. 1 in favor of no. 6, various religions over the ages abandoned no. 6 in favor of no. 1. Theirs has been the atrocious belief that as long as you believe in the Lord, or in Allah, you can kill and maim whomever you brand an "infidel." 
Whether it is a business executive in New York, or a teen-ager eating a slice of pizza in Jerusalem, or a child on the first day of school in Beslan, or a commuter in Madrid, or a tourist in Bali, or a Chabad couple in Mumbai, if the person is not a member of your faith, G-d wants him or her to die. For the religious fundamentalist, "I am the Lord your G-d" has nothing to do with "You shall not murder." 
This is the greatest perversion of faith. Faith that does not inculcate its followers with the sanctity of every single human life desecrates and erodes the very purpose of faith, which is to elevate the human person to a state beyond personal instinct and prejudice. If you delete ?You shall not murder? from religion, you have detached yourself from ?I am the Lord your G-d.? 
To believe in G-d means to honor the life of every person created in the image of G-d. What the juxtaposition of the two commandments is telling us is that you can?t believe in G-d and murder (3*).
Conversely, if you truly believe that taking the life of another human is wrong -- not just because you lack the means or motive to do so or are afraid of ending up in jail, but because you recognize the transcendent, inviolable value of life -- that's just another way of saying you believe in G-d. For what confers upon human life its radical grace, its transcendent sanctity and its absolute value if not the living presence of G-d imprinted on the face of the human person?
More than 3,300 years ago, Judaism, in the most ennobling attempt to create a society based on justice and peace, established its principle code in the sequence of the two commandments ? ?I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder.? A society without G-d can become monstrous; a society that abandons the eternal and absolute commandment ?You shall not murder? is equally evil. Both are capable of burning children alive during the day and then retiring to sleep with a clear conscience.
The Mountain
The Talmud captures this notion in a rather strange, but intriguing, fashion (4).The Talmud cites a tradition that when Israel approached Sinai, G-d lifted up the mountain, held it over the people's heads and declared: ?Either you accept the Torah, or be crushed beneath the mountain.? (The Talmud bases this tradition on the verse in Exodus, ?And they stood beneath the mountain (5).?) 
This seems ludicrous. What worth is there to a relationship and a covenant accepted through coercion (6)?
The answer is profoundly simple. What G-d was telling the Jewish people is that the creation of societies that honor life and shun cruelty is dependent on education and on the value system inculcated within children of the society. The system of Torah, G-d was suggesting, was the guarantor for life and liberty. If you reject the morality of Torah, if you will lack the courage and conviction to teach the world that ?I am the Lord your G-d? and that I have stated unequivocally ?You shall not murder,? the result will be humanity crushed under a mountain of tyrants.
Sixty-five years since Auschwitz and after one decade of incessant Islamic terrorism, the mountain is hanging over our heads once again. Shall we embrace the path of divine-based morality? Shall we never forget that religion must always be defined by ?You shall not murder (7)??
Footnotes:
1) Exodus chapter 20.
2) Mechilta to Exodus ibid.
3) Genesis 3:5.
3*) The Midrash (Mechiultah ibid.) in discussing the connection between the first and sixth commandments presents the following parable to explain the evil behind murder: ?There was a king who entered a country and put up portraits of himself, and made statues of himself, and minted coins with his image. After a while, the people of the country overturned his portraits, broke his statues and invalidated his coins, thereby reducing the image of the king. ?So, too, one who sheds blood reduces the image of the King, as it is written (Genesis 9:6): "One who spills a man's blood... for in the image of G-d He made man."
4) Talmud, Shabbas 88a.
5) Exodus 19:17.
6) This question is raised among many of the Talmudic commentators. Many answers have been offered. See Tosfos, Eitz Yosef, Pnei Yehoshua, Shabbos Shel Mi and BenYehoyada to Talmud Shabbos ibid. Midrash Tanchumah Noach section 3. Daas Zekeinim Mibbalei Hatosafos on Exodus 19:17. Maharal Tiferes Yisroel ch. 32, Gur Aryeh on Exodus ibid. and Or Chodash p. 45. Sources noted in Pardas Yosef to Exodus ibid. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Pulnah in Ben Poras Yosef Parshas Vayeishev. Torah Or Megilas Esther p. 96c; 118c.
7) This essay is based on a Yiddish letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe written to Dr. Elie Wiesel in 1965 (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 33 pp.255-260) and on a 1962 public address by the Rebbe (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 3 pp. 887-895), and on other sources.

Please note the "mountain" at the end of the article.
Sinai is a derivative of the Hebrew word " Sinat" meaning "hatred."
I found this to be very interesting. 
As if HaShem were saying - the mountain where I gave you Torah will in turn be characterized by the world hating you if you do not uphold the Torah and if you uphold the Torah the world will still hate you.

Food for thought.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/c31aa2e3/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Feb 10 20:35:17 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:35:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
Message-ID: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>

A friend of mine sent this heartwarming photo and wrote, 

 

"I just love this because even in the WORST of circumstances, a random act
of kindness can touch people a world away."

 

 So true!  This reminded me of Jessica's story of her little male koala that
she rescued.  Animals are so sensitive to one another.we could learn much
from then.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

Firefighter David Tree shares his water with an injured Australian koala in
a scorched forest near Mirboo North.

Koala recovering, has suitor
The koala, which turned out to be a female, was in pain but recovering with
antibiotics, Jenny Shaw of the Mountain Ash Wildlife Shelter told
Melbourne's The Herald Sun newspaper.

"She is lovely - very docile - and she has already got an admirer. A male
koala keeps putting his arms around her," Shaw was quoted as saying. "It
will be a long road to recovery, but she should be able to be released back
into the wild in about five months."

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/90e91e36/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 6c88fbc6-0801-4863-8d50-36d80e449907.hmedium[1].jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 19900 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/90e91e36/attachment.jpg 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Feb 10 20:50:11 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:50:11 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
In-Reply-To: <021120090230.28339.4992385C0005EF4D00006EB322230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>
	<021120090230.28339.4992385C0005EF4D00006EB322230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <1FB6636D273C4587B1DA8AA1B235E499@bettylaptop>

Wonderful, story, Joe, and interesting teaching regarding the 10
Commandments!  I printed it out to use it in our parsha study this weekend!
I hope your taxing work schedule slacks up a bit and that all of your
unrealistic deadlines are met.I can identify with some of that so well.work
is good, but you need some time to replenish yourself.hopefully and HaShem
willing, it will be soon.  Please do take care of yourself.

 

B'ahava v'shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism

 

Beautiful Joe!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>:
-------------- 

Shalom Chaverim,

my absence from the computer has been due to a very taxing work schedule and
unrealistic deadlines .

First of all Avigail, how is Rudy faring. I pray that his blood clot and
high temperature has not affected his renal function like last time. I pray
for his speedy recovery. Please keep us informed.

Thank you all for your concerns and prayers during this time of
unprecedented national tragedy in the land down under.
It is not over yet.
One very touching story that has surfaced during this time tells of a family
that lost all in the Queensland floods and when they received financial
benefits from the Government, without hesitation promptly donated this
lifeline to the victims of the bush fires in Victoria. AMAZING.

Finally, before I return to the grindstone, I would like to share an
interesting article with you.


 


 


The
<http://shiratdevorah.blogspot.com/2009/02/roots-of-secular-religious.html>
Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism 


The Two Great Evils of History by  <http://theyeshiva.net/> Rabbi Y. Y.
Jacobson 

Give Us Two

One of the intriguing things about the Ten Commandments (1) is that they
were engraved on two separate tablets. Was G-d short of granite that He
needed to use two tablets? Why could He not carve the commandments onto a
single stone?

There is the stereotypical Jew-bashing joke about this:

Before coming to the Jews, G-d approached all the nations and asked if they
would like to accept the Torah. Each of them refused because of some
commandment in the Bible to which they could not possibly adhere. When G-d
presented the offer to the Jews, their sole question was: How much do you
want for it? To which G-d responded: "It's for free." So the Jews replied:
"Give us two." 

Yet the issue demands sincere reflection. Why indeed was there a need for
two tablets?

Two Versions

The rabbis in the midrash proposed a novel answer. The Ten Commandments,
they suggested, were engraved on two tablets, five on each stone, so that
they would be read in two directions -- from top to bottom, and from side to
side (2).

The simplest way of reading the Ten Commandments is, of course, from top to
bottom:On the first stone:

1) I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of Egypt...

2) You shall have no other gods...

3) You shall not swear in G-d's name in vain...

4) Remember the Sabbath...

5) Honor your father and your mother...

And the five commandments engraved on the second tablet:

6) You shall not murder.

7) You shall not commit adultery.

8) You shall not steal.

9) You shall not bear false witness against your fellow.

10) You shall not covet your fellow's house; you shall not covet your
fellow's wife . nor anything that belongs to your fellow.

This was the way of reading the Ten Commandments vertically. Yet due to the
fact that the first five commandments were engraved on one stone and the
second five on a separate stone, there was another way of reading the
commandments -- horizontally instead of vertically, from commandment No. 1
directly to No. 6; from No. 2 to No. 7; 3 -- 8; 4 -- 9; 5 -- 10.

This version of the Ten Commandments would then read like this:

1) I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder. 

2) You shall have no other gods/You shall not commit adultery; 

and so forth with the rest of the commandments.

Yet this explanation begs the question: Why is it necessary to read the Ten
Commandments horizontally? What insight can we gain from this alternative
reading of the commandments? 

In this essay we will discuss the juxtaposition of the first and sixth
commandments: "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder." The
significance of this "horizontal" reading from a historical, political and
religious standpoint cannot be overstated. It embodies one of the most
stunning aspects of Judaism. What is at stake in this juxtaposition is
nothing less than the future of human civilization.

Two Historical Attempts

Two groups have made an attempt to divorce commandment no. 1 from
commandment no. 6 -- to sever the idea of a Creator, who conceived the world
for a moral purpose, from the imperative to honor the life of another human
being. The first group was comprised of the philosophers of the
Enlightenment during the 18th and 19th centuries, the second of religious
leaders in many and diverse ages. The result for both was moral defeat. The
thinkers of the Enlightenment ushered in the Age of Reason and the modern
secular era, founded on the belief that the great ideal of "You shall not
murder" did not require the prerequisite of "I am the Lord Your G-d" in
order to be sustained. Religion was not necessary to ensure moral behavior;
reason alone, without G-d, would guide humanity into an age of liberty and
to the achievement of moral greatness. The sixth commandment could operate
successfully independent of the first.

While religion embodied the vision of man standing in a continuous
relationship with G-d, the essence of the Enlightenment represented the
vision of man without G-d. It was a vision already introduced during the
first days of creation near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, by
the most sophisticated animal of the time, the serpent. "You shall be like
G-d," it promised Eve (3). Man could, and ought to, replace G-d. Left to his
own vices, the thinking went, the human being will achieve greatness.

But the Holocaust spelled the end of this grand faith in the promise of
human progress based on human reason. In Auschwitz, the belief that modern
man felt a natural empathy for others was ruined forever. The gas chambers
were not invented by a primitive, barbaric and illiterate people. To the
contrary, this people excelled in sciences and the arts, but nevertheless
sent 1.5 million children, and 4.5 million adults, to their deaths solely
because they had Jewish blood flowing in their veins. SS guards would spend
a day in Auschwitz, gassing as many as 12,000 human beings, and then return
home in the evening to pet their dogs and laugh with their wives. 

As the smoke of children ascended from the crematoriums, these charming
romantics would enjoy good wine, beautiful women and the moving music of
Bach, Mozart and Wagner. They murdered millions of innocents in the name of
a developed ethic, and they justified genocide on purely rational grounds.

In "Schindler's List," there is a scene during the liquidation of the Krakow
Ghetto where a little girl hiding in a piano is shot dead by an SS guard. As
her little angelic body lay in a river of blood, another guard sits down to
play the piano.

First SS guard: Was ist das? Ist das Bach?

Second SS guard: Nein. Mozart.

First SS guard: Mozart?

Second SS guard: Ja. 

And they both marvel at the exquisite music.

This was Nazi Germany at its best.

Elie Wiesel who gripped the world's imagination with his book "Night," a
personal testimony of life and death in Auschwitz, once asked the
Lubavitcher Rebbe, who himself lost many members of his family in the
Holocaust, how he could believe in G-d after Auschwitz. If G-d existed,
Wiesel asked, posing the single greatest challenge to faith, how could He
ignore 6 million of His children de-humanized and murdered in the cruelest
of fashions?

The Rebbe shed a tear and then replied, "In whom do you expect me to believe
after Auschwitz? In man?"

This must remain one of the lasting legacies of Auschwitz. If there is any
faith at all left after the extermination of 6 million people, it must glean
its vitality from something transcending the human rationale and its
properties. If morality is left to be determined exclusively by the human
mind, it can become a morality that justifies the guillotine, the gulag and
the gas chamber. As Dostoevsky famously put it in "The Brothers Karamazov,"
"Where there is no G-d, all is permitted."

The atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote: "I cannot see how to refute
the arguments for the subjectivity of ethical values , but I find myself
incapable of believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I
don't like it." Russell's point is critical. Without G-d, we cannot
objectively define any behavior as good or evil. As difficult as it is to
entertain, no one can objectively claim that gassing a mother and her
children is any more evil than killing a mouse. It is all a matter of taste
and opinion. The validity and effectiveness of "You shall not murder" can be
sustained only if it is predicated on the foundation of faith in a universal
moral creator who gave humanity an absolute and unwavering definition of
what constitutes good vs. evil.

Professor Abraham Joshua Heschel, who escaped Warsaw a few weeks before it
was invaded and lost most of his family in the Nazi Holocaust, captured this
sentiment succinctly: "If man is not more than human, then he is less then
human." Either we climb to a place beyond ourselves, or we are likely to
fall to a place below ourselves. When the vision of the sacred dies in the
soul of a person, he or she is capable of becoming a servant of the devil.

Religious Evil

But this is far from the whole picture. While the Enlightenment abandoned
commandment no. 1 in favor of no. 6, various religions over the ages
abandoned no. 6 in favor of no. 1. Theirs has been the atrocious belief that
as long as you believe in the Lord, or in Allah, you can kill and maim
whomever you brand an "infidel." 

Whether it is a business executive in New York, or a teen-ager eating a
slice of pizza in Jerusalem, or a child on the first day of school in
Beslan, or a commuter in Madrid, or a tourist in Bali, or a Chabad couple in
Mumbai, if the person is not a member of your faith, G-d wants him or her to
die. For the religious fundamentalist, "I am the Lord your G-d" has nothing
to do with "You shall not murder." 

This is the greatest perversion of faith. Faith that does not inculcate its
followers with the sanctity of every single human life desecrates and erodes
the very purpose of faith, which is to elevate the human person to a state
beyond personal instinct and prejudice. If you delete "You shall not murder"
from religion, you have detached yourself from "I am the Lord your G-d." 

To believe in G-d means to honor the life of every person created in the
image of G-d. What the juxtaposition of the two commandments is telling us
is that you can't believe in G-d and murder (3*).

Conversely, if you truly believe that taking the life of another human is
wrong -- not just because you lack the means or motive to do so or are
afraid of ending up in jail, but because you recognize the transcendent,
inviolable value of life -- that's just another way of saying you believe in
G-d. For what confers upon human life its radical grace, its transcendent
sanctity and its absolute value if not the living presence of G-d imprinted
on the face of the human person?

More than 3,300 years ago, Judaism, in the most ennobling attempt to create
a society based on justice and peace, established its principle code in the
sequence of the two commandments - "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not
murder." A society without G-d can become monstrous; a society that abandons
the eternal and absolute commandment "You shall not murder" is equally evil.
Both are capable of burning children alive during the day and then retiring
to sleep with a clear conscience.

The Mountain

The Talmud captures this notion in a rather strange, but intriguing, fashion
(4).The Talmud cites a tradition that when Israel approached Sinai, G-d
lifted up the mountain, held it over the people's heads and declared:
"Either you accept the Torah, or be crushed beneath the mountain." (The
Talmud bases this tradition on the verse in Exodus, "And they stood beneath
the mountain (5).") 

This seems ludicrous. What worth is there to a relationship and a covenant
accepted through coercion (6)?

The answer is profoundly simple. What G-d was telling the Jewish people is
that the creation of societies that honor life and shun cruelty is dependent
on education and on the value system inculcated within children of the
society. The system of Torah, G-d was suggesting, was the guarantor for life
and liberty. If you reject the morality of Torah, if you will lack the
courage and conviction to teach the world that "I am the Lord your G-d" and
that I have stated unequivocally "You shall not murder," the result will be
humanity crushed under a mountain of tyrants.

Sixty-five years since Auschwitz and after one decade of incessant Islamic
terrorism, the mountain is hanging over our heads once again. Shall we
embrace the path of divine-based morality? Shall we never forget that
religion must always be defined by "You shall not murder (7)?"

Footnotes:

1) Exodus chapter 20.

2) Mechilta to Exodus ibid.

3) Genesis 3:5.

3*) The Midrash (Mechiultah ibid.) in discussing the connection between the
first and sixth commandments presents the following parable to explain the
evil behind murder: "There was a king who entered a country and put up
portraits of himself, and made statues of himself, and minted coins with his
image. After a while, the people of the country overturned his portraits,
broke his statues and invalidated his coins, thereby reducing the image of
the king. "So, too, one who sheds blood reduces the image of the King, as it
is written (Genesis 9:6): "One who spills a man's blood... for in the image
of G-d He made man."

4) Talmud, Shabbas 88a.

5) Exodus 19:17.

6) This question is raised among many of the Talmudic commentators. Many
answers have been offered. See Tosfos, Eitz Yosef, Pnei Yehoshua, Shabbos
Shel Mi and BenYehoyada to Talmud Shabbos ibid. Midrash Tanchumah Noach
section 3. Daas Zekeinim Mibbalei Hatosafos on Exodus 19:17. Maharal Tiferes
Yisroel ch. 32, Gur Aryeh on Exodus ibid. and Or Chodash p. 45. Sources
noted in Pardas Yosef to Exodus ibid. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Pulnah in Ben
Poras Yosef Parshas Vayeishev. Torah Or Megilas Esther p. 96c; 118c.

7) This essay is based on a Yiddish letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe written
to Dr. Elie Wiesel in 1965 (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 33 pp.255-260)
and on a 1962 public address by the Rebbe (published in Likkutei Sichos vol.
3 pp. 887-895), and on other sources.


Please note the "mountain" at the end of the article.
Sinai is a derivative of the Hebrew word " Sinat" meaning "hatred."
I found this to be very interesting. 
As if HaShem were saying - the mountain where I gave you Torah will in turn
be characterized by the world hating you if you do not uphold the Torah and
if you uphold the Torah the world will still hate you.

Food for thought.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c6bb73a8/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 21:38:45 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:38:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism
In-Reply-To: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>
References: <4991F805.5010708@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS25C9B9B3DC36DB41CA14A3BABA0@phx.gbl>

Hi Joe,

I missed your email earlier.  This is wonderful!   I also love that Number Two is opposite Number Seven:  You shall have no other gods/You shall not commit adultery - Astounding!!!!

I've not spoken to Linda (Rudy's wife), but have heard that she is staying at the hospital with Rudy and is, of course very tired.  The doctors are running tests to find out what is causing the problem.   I will try to reach her tomorrow before I go to work.  Thank you - thank ALL of you on the List - for your prayers on their behalf.  HaShem IS a G-d of miracles, and I know He hears the prayers of His people.

The story you relay about the Queensland family who lost everything in the floods, then gave their Government financial benefits to the victims of the fires has caused my love and admiration of the Australian people to grow even more!  - Now, of course, I'm concerned about the Queensland family, and am praying for them.  I so hope they will recover.

Avigail


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism


Shalom Chaverim,

my absence from the computer has been due to a very taxing work schedule and unrealistic deadlines .

First of all Avigail, how is Rudy faring. I pray that his blood clot and high temperature has not affected his renal function like last time. I pray for his speedy recovery. Please keep us informed.

Thank you all for your concerns and prayers during this time of unprecedented national tragedy in the land down under.
It is not over yet.
One very touching story that has surfaced during this time tells of a family that lost all in the Queensland floods and when they received financial benefits from the Government, without hesitation promptly donated this lifeline to the victims of the bush fires in Victoria. AMAZING.

Finally, before I return to the grindstone, I would like to share an interesting article with you.






The Roots of Secular & Religious Fundamentalism 
The Two Great Evils of History by Rabbi Y. Y. Jacobson 
Give Us Two
One of the intriguing things about the Ten Commandments (1) is that they were engraved on two separate tablets. Was G-d short of granite that He needed to use two tablets? Why could He not carve the commandments onto a single stone?
There is the stereotypical Jew-bashing joke about this:

Before coming to the Jews, G-d approached all the nations and asked if they would like to accept the Torah. Each of them refused because of some commandment in the Bible to which they could not possibly adhere. When G-d presented the offer to the Jews, their sole question was: How much do you want for it? To which G-d responded: "It's for free." So the Jews replied: "Give us two." 

Yet the issue demands sincere reflection. Why indeed was there a need for two tablets?

Two Versions

The rabbis in the midrash proposed a novel answer. The Ten Commandments, they suggested, were engraved on two tablets, five on each stone, so that they would be read in two directions -- from top to bottom, and from side to side (2).

The simplest way of reading the Ten Commandments is, of course, from top to bottom:On the first stone:

1) I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of Egypt...

2) You shall have no other gods...

3) You shall not swear in G-d's name in vain...

4) Remember the Sabbath...

5) Honor your father and your mother...

And the five commandments engraved on the second tablet:

6) You shall not murder.

7) You shall not commit adultery.

8) You shall not steal.

9) You shall not bear false witness against your fellow.

10) You shall not covet your fellow's house; you shall not covet your fellow's wife . nor anything that belongs to your fellow.

This was the way of reading the Ten Commandments vertically. Yet due to the fact that the first five commandments were engraved on one stone and the second five on a separate stone, there was another way of reading the commandments -- horizontally instead of vertically, from commandment No. 1 directly to No. 6; from No. 2 to No. 7; 3 -- 8; 4 -- 9; 5 -- 10.

This version of the Ten Commandments would then read like this:

1) I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder. 

2) You shall have no other gods/You shall not commit adultery; 

and so forth with the rest of the commandments.

Yet this explanation begs the question: Why is it necessary to read the Ten Commandments horizontally? What insight can we gain from this alternative reading of the commandments? 

In this essay we will discuss the juxtaposition of the first and sixth commandments: "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder." The significance of this "horizontal" reading from a historical, political and religious standpoint cannot be overstated. It embodies one of the most stunning aspects of Judaism. What is at stake in this juxtaposition is nothing less than the future of human civilization.

Two Historical Attempts

Two groups have made an attempt to divorce commandment no. 1 from commandment no. 6 -- to sever the idea of a Creator, who conceived the world for a moral purpose, from the imperative to honor the life of another human being. The first group was comprised of the philosophers of the Enlightenment during the 18th and 19th centuries, the second of religious leaders in many and diverse ages. The result for both was moral defeat. The thinkers of the Enlightenment ushered in the Age of Reason and the modern secular era, founded on the belief that the great ideal of "You shall not murder" did not require the prerequisite of "I am the Lord Your G-d" in order to be sustained. Religion was not necessary to ensure moral behavior; reason alone, without G-d, would guide humanity into an age of liberty and to the achievement of moral greatness. The sixth commandment could operate successfully independent of the first.

While religion embodied the vision of man standing in a continuous relationship with G-d, the essence of the Enlightenment represented the vision of man without G-d. It was a vision already introduced during the first days of creation near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, by the most sophisticated animal of the time, the serpent. "You shall be like G-d," it promised Eve (3). Man could, and ought to, replace G-d. Left to his own vices, the thinking went, the human being will achieve greatness.

But the Holocaust spelled the end of this grand faith in the promise of human progress based on human reason. In Auschwitz, the belief that modern man felt a natural empathy for others was ruined forever. The gas chambers were not invented by a primitive, barbaric and illiterate people. To the contrary, this people excelled in sciences and the arts, but nevertheless sent 1.5 million children, and 4.5 million adults, to their deaths solely because they had Jewish blood flowing in their veins. SS guards would spend a day in Auschwitz, gassing as many as 12,000 human beings, and then return home in the evening to pet their dogs and laugh with their wives. 

As the smoke of children ascended from the crematoriums, these charming romantics would enjoy good wine, beautiful women and the moving music of Bach, Mozart and Wagner. They murdered millions of innocents in the name of a developed ethic, and they justified genocide on purely rational grounds.

In "Schindler's List," there is a scene during the liquidation of the Krakow Ghetto where a little girl hiding in a piano is shot dead by an SS guard. As her little angelic body lay in a river of blood, another guard sits down to play the piano.

First SS guard: Was ist das? Ist das Bach?

Second SS guard: Nein. Mozart.

First SS guard: Mozart?

Second SS guard: Ja. 

And they both marvel at the exquisite music.

This was Nazi Germany at its best.

Elie Wiesel who gripped the world's imagination with his book "Night," a personal testimony of life and death in Auschwitz, once asked the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who himself lost many members of his family in the Holocaust, how he could believe in G-d after Auschwitz. If G-d existed, Wiesel asked, posing the single greatest challenge to faith, how could He ignore 6 million of His children de-humanized and murdered in the cruelest of fashions?

The Rebbe shed a tear and then replied, "In whom do you expect me to believe after Auschwitz? In man?"

This must remain one of the lasting legacies of Auschwitz. If there is any faith at all left after the extermination of 6 million people, it must glean its vitality from something transcending the human rationale and its properties. If morality is left to be determined exclusively by the human mind, it can become a morality that justifies the guillotine, the gulag and the gas chamber. As Dostoevsky famously put it in "The Brothers Karamazov," "Where there is no G-d, all is permitted."

The atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote: "I cannot see how to refute the arguments for the subjectivity of ethical values , but I find myself incapable of believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I don't like it." Russell's point is critical. Without G-d, we cannot objectively define any behavior as good or evil. As difficult as it is to entertain, no one can objectively claim that gassing a mother and her children is any more evil than killing a mouse. It is all a matter of taste and opinion. The validity and effectiveness of "You shall not murder" can be sustained only if it is predicated on the foundation of faith in a universal moral creator who gave humanity an absolute and unwavering definition of what constitutes good vs. evil.

Professor Abraham Joshua Heschel, who escaped Warsaw a few weeks before it was invaded and lost most of his family in the Nazi Holocaust, captured this sentiment succinctly: "If man is not more than human, then he is less then human." Either we climb to a place beyond ourselves, or we are likely to fall to a place below ourselves. When the vision of the sacred dies in the soul of a person, he or she is capable of becoming a servant of the devil.

Religious Evil

But this is far from the whole picture. While the Enlightenment abandoned commandment no. 1 in favor of no. 6, various religions over the ages abandoned no. 6 in favor of no. 1. Theirs has been the atrocious belief that as long as you believe in the Lord, or in Allah, you can kill and maim whomever you brand an "infidel." 

Whether it is a business executive in New York, or a teen-ager eating a slice of pizza in Jerusalem, or a child on the first day of school in Beslan, or a commuter in Madrid, or a tourist in Bali, or a Chabad couple in Mumbai, if the person is not a member of your faith, G-d wants him or her to die. For the religious fundamentalist, "I am the Lord your G-d" has nothing to do with "You shall not murder." 

This is the greatest perversion of faith. Faith that does not inculcate its followers with the sanctity of every single human life desecrates and erodes the very purpose of faith, which is to elevate the human person to a state beyond personal instinct and prejudice. If you delete "You shall not murder" from religion, you have detached yourself from "I am the Lord your G-d." 

To believe in G-d means to honor the life of every person created in the image of G-d. What the juxtaposition of the two commandments is telling us is that you can't believe in G-d and murder (3*).

Conversely, if you truly believe that taking the life of another human is wrong -- not just because you lack the means or motive to do so or are afraid of ending up in jail, but because you recognize the transcendent, inviolable value of life -- that's just another way of saying you believe in G-d. For what confers upon human life its radical grace, its transcendent sanctity and its absolute value if not the living presence of G-d imprinted on the face of the human person?

More than 3,300 years ago, Judaism, in the most ennobling attempt to create a society based on justice and peace, established its principle code in the sequence of the two commandments - "I am the Lord your G-d/You shall not murder." A society without G-d can become monstrous; a society that abandons the eternal and absolute commandment "You shall not murder" is equally evil. Both are capable of burning children alive during the day and then retiring to sleep with a clear conscience.

The Mountain

The Talmud captures this notion in a rather strange, but intriguing, fashion (4).The Talmud cites a tradition that when Israel approached Sinai, G-d lifted up the mountain, held it over the people's heads and declared: "Either you accept the Torah, or be crushed beneath the mountain." (The Talmud bases this tradition on the verse in Exodus, "And they stood beneath the mountain (5).") 

This seems ludicrous. What worth is there to a relationship and a covenant accepted through coercion (6)?

The answer is profoundly simple. What G-d was telling the Jewish people is that the creation of societies that honor life and shun cruelty is dependent on education and on the value system inculcated within children of the society. The system of Torah, G-d was suggesting, was the guarantor for life and liberty. If you reject the morality of Torah, if you will lack the courage and conviction to teach the world that "I am the Lord your G-d" and that I have stated unequivocally "You shall not murder," the result will be humanity crushed under a mountain of tyrants.

Sixty-five years since Auschwitz and after one decade of incessant Islamic terrorism, the mountain is hanging over our heads once again. Shall we embrace the path of divine-based morality? Shall we never forget that religion must always be defined by "You shall not murder (7)?"

Footnotes:

1) Exodus chapter 20.

2) Mechilta to Exodus ibid.

3) Genesis 3:5.

3*) The Midrash (Mechiultah ibid.) in discussing the connection between the first and sixth commandments presents the following parable to explain the evil behind murder: "There was a king who entered a country and put up portraits of himself, and made statues of himself, and minted coins with his image. After a while, the people of the country overturned his portraits, broke his statues and invalidated his coins, thereby reducing the image of the king. "So, too, one who sheds blood reduces the image of the King, as it is written (Genesis 9:6): "One who spills a man's blood... for in the image of G-d He made man."

4) Talmud, Shabbas 88a.

5) Exodus 19:17.

6) This question is raised among many of the Talmudic commentators. Many answers have been offered. See Tosfos, Eitz Yosef, Pnei Yehoshua, Shabbos Shel Mi and BenYehoyada to Talmud Shabbos ibid. Midrash Tanchumah Noach section 3. Daas Zekeinim Mibbalei Hatosafos on Exodus 19:17. Maharal Tiferes Yisroel ch. 32, Gur Aryeh on Exodus ibid. and Or Chodash p. 45. Sources noted in Pardas Yosef to Exodus ibid. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Pulnah in Ben Poras Yosef Parshas Vayeishev. Torah Or Megilas Esther p. 96c; 118c.

7) This essay is based on a Yiddish letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe written to Dr. Elie Wiesel in 1965 (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 33 pp.255-260) and on a 1962 public address by the Rebbe (published in Likkutei Sichos vol. 3 pp. 887-895), and on other sources.


Please note the "mountain" at the end of the article.
Sinai is a derivative of the Hebrew word " Sinat" meaning "hatred."
I found this to be very interesting. 
As if HaShem were saying - the mountain where I gave you Torah will in turn be characterized by the world hating you if you do not uphold the Torah and if you uphold the Torah the world will still hate you.

Food for thought.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/ece9b755/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Tue Feb 10 21:55:29 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:25:29 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
In-Reply-To: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>
References: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/cfedb725/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Heat affected koala 1.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56613 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/cfedb725/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Heat affected koala 2.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 41075 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/cfedb725/attachment-0001.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 275 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/cfedb725/attachment.jpe 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 22:03:15 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Disasters in Australia
In-Reply-To: <B358B3CBD369464D9246F30748D339E1@SPLITPIN>
References: <20090210210719.GYQO4206.nskntingx02p.mx.bigpond.com@www2.sssecure.net>
	<B358B3CBD369464D9246F30748D339E1@SPLITPIN>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS48FDACAF8DB61909F20A5BABA0@phx.gbl>

Hi Sandra,

I don't think you sound cold.  I think you have a heart for HaShem and it is 
hurting you to know that the vast majority of people cannot yet recognize 
that they are missing the Ancient Path.  He is calling out His people, and 
they are coming Home, "one from a city, two from a family," (Jer. 3:14) just 
as He said they would.  Someday the numbers will be grow to a multitude.  We 
are the beginning of Exodus II!!!!  You don't know how wonderful it is to 
hear from so many of you Aussies!  It's so incredible to grasp that we are 
"gathering ourselves together" from all over the world!!!!!

Hold on, dear one, and keep praying for them to come in!

Love,

Avigail/Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Sandra Inglis" <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:40 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Disasters in Australia

> Shalom everyone,
>
> I do not mean to sound cold toward the victims of the fires in Victoria 
> and Southern New South Wales and the Flooding in North Queensland not the 
> Severe thunder storms in SE Queensland, but I do believe these events are 
> a result of the sin of our people. These events are what we have been told 
> would happen if the children of Israel do not turn from their sin of 
> idolatry and return to YeHoWaH with all of their heart. This is a wake up 
> call to us, a warning should be going out to all Australians to turn back 
> from their sin and turn to YeHoWaH with all of their heart.
>
> I live in South East Queensland and have not been affected by any of the 
> severe weather which has been going on all around. We have had no severe 
> thunderstorms where I live. I thank YeHoWaH for protecting me and my 
> family.
>
> My prayer for all of the victims, those who have survived this terrible 
> ordeal is that they may seek YeHoWaH with all of their heart, turn from 
> their sin and return to YeHoWaH with their whole heart. Then He will be 
> with them and give them protection from the devastating things to come and 
> will comfort them in the trials which they have already experienced. I 
> believe we are in the beginning of the time of Jacobs trouble and it is 
> only going to get worse before Israel turns from their sin and returns to 
> YeHoWaH with all of their heart.
>
> I am glad to hear that no one on this forum has been a victim of theses 
> events. I will pray for your protection and the protection of all those 
> who love and obey YeHoWaH.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Sandra.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:07 AM
> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 40
>
>
>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
>> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update (Helen Lusk)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:07:00 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Fw: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org, uilist at unitedisrael.org
>> Message-ID: <215242.13435.qm at web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still praying for the Australian people who have been injured bodily, 
>> those who have lost loved ones and homes and everything else and that 
>> soon the extreme weather in the country will return to normal.
>>
>> Have been away since Sunday, with Inju, who had shoulder surgery 
>> yesterday. She is doing well and now needs to rest and heal and will 
>> start physical therapy later in the week. Please keep her in your 
>> prayers.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Helen
>>
>> --- On Tue, 2/10/09, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires - update
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 3:07 AM
>>
>>
>> Hi Pat,
>> The latest news about the Victorian fires is that 173 people are now 
>> confirmed deceased.
>> So far $25million has been raised for the survivors and families of 
>> victims.
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> Patricia Robbins wrote:
>>
>> Jessica, is there a way that we can contribute (maybe by PayPal) to help 
>> the victims and families of these fires?
>>
>> Love,
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Vegemite Rose
>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:35 AM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Victoria's killer fires
>>
>>
>> The last paragraph in this story is particularly encouraging.
>> Jessica
>>
>> Fires continue to burn as death toll climbs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig Kidd looks at the melted metal of alloy wheels from the vehicles on 
>> his property in Bendigo. (Getty Images: Scott Barbour)
>> Fires are still burning across Victoria, with a 30,000 hectare blaze at 
>> Beechworth, causing the most concern.
>> The number of deaths now stands at 131, but that number may rise as 
>> authorities continue the grim task of searching properties and cars 
>> destroyed in the firestorms.
>> More than 700 homes have been destroyed.
>>
>> Meanwhile, a fire that is burning south of the Latrobe Valley in Victoria 
>> has broken containment lines.
>> The fire, south of Churchill, has already claimed 21 lives in the 
>> townships of Callignee, Hazelwood and Jeeralang.
>> An alert message has been issued for the southern edge of the blaze, and 
>> residents in Won Wron and Yarram are on alert for falling embers.
>> The Country Fire Association's (CFA) Anna Larkin says the wind has picked 
>> up this afternoon and the main concern is for the state's largest 
>> electricity generator.
>> "We're getting high flame and we have crews working strongly on that," 
>> she said.
>> "Near the Loy Yang coal mine - that's a really important state asset," 
>> she said.
>>
>> A fire has also started in the Yarra Valley and residents should remain 
>> aware of changing conditions.
>> Another fire at Bunyip in Gippsland's west continues to threaten 
>> communities, and rappel crews are being dropped into Wilsons Promontory 
>> to fight a fire burning north-east of Tidal River.
>> The CFA says it has about four days to contain the fires before weather 
>> conditions once again exacerbate the situation.
>> An evacuation centre has been set up in Myrtleford to assist people 
>> affected by the Beechworth fire. It is located at the Senior Citizens 
>> Centre in Smith Street.
>>
>> The town of Marysville has been declared a crime scene after a bushfire 
>> swept through causing complete devastation.
>> Police blocked cars from driving into the town in north-east Victoria 
>> saying there were still bodies in the streets and the whole town was a 
>> crime scene.
>> It is believed the fire was deliberately lit.
>> Police forensic crews are sifting through the ruins of what once was a 
>> popular tourist town.
>> Arson squad detectives are also on the ground in Yarram today, and the 
>> area is being treated as a crime scene.
>>
>> In the small community of Granton, just outside of Marysville, just seven 
>> out of the 20 houses were still standing on Monday.
>> Two residents, Kevin and Judy Pertzel, stayed to defend their house using 
>> their full water tank of 8,000 litres.
>> Mrs Pertzel, 59, said they had help from a neighbour across the road 
>> after his house went up in less than two minutes.
>> "The fire came through so quick and in all directions - it was every man 
>> for himself," Mrs Pertzel said.
>> "I almost gave up twice but then I hosed myself down and then kept 
>> going."
>>
>> Farmer Thomas Libreri from near Kinglake says he managed to save his 
>> house from the flames.
>> He says after the worst had passed he went looking for his neighbours, 
>> and found one with burns to nearly 50 per cent of his body.
>> "And then we found Mike at the back of his house, still smouldering, he 
>> was alive and we managed to get him back here and we saved him," he said.
>> "He was in our pool for six hours, we couldn't get any emergency services 
>> in, we had no help, no firefighting crews no ambulances, we had nothing."
>> "That I think we'll stay with my kids for a long time, seeing someone 
>> burnt like that and you know obviously in pain and everyone just trying 
>> to keep him alive and at the same time trying to protect your own 
>> property."
>> Mr Libreri says he had three families sheltering in his home at the 
>> height of the fire, with six children under the age of nine.
>> He says more families have arrived since.
>>
>> Kinglake resident Christopher Hardy says he is devastated.
>> "Everybody's gone. Everybody's gone. They're all dead in their houses 
>> there, everybody's dead."
>> About 20 people who were badly injured in the bushfires are being treated 
>> at the Alfred Hospital burns unit.
>> The surgical director of the unit, Dr Heather Clelland, says many of the 
>> patients will undergo significant surgical procedures over the next two 
>> days.
>> "Basically related to the need to remove the burnt tissue and cover the 
>> exposed wounds with skin substitutes or ultimately their own skin 
>> grafting," she said.
>> Mr Brumby has since announced a Royal Commission into the fires.
>> The commission's terms of reference will include all aspects of the 
>> Government's bushfire strategy.
>> The State Government will announce a timeline for the inquiry later in 
>> the week.
>> Victorian Governor David de Kretser says the death toll from the weekend 
>> fires is overwhelming.
>> "The loss of life just keeps going up and up and it's going to take so 
>> long to identify who was actually involved," he said.
>> "And to identify the people concerned, it's just a tragedy of the 
>> greatest proportions."
>> Several states and territories have committed money and resources to the 
>> Victorian bushfire emergency.
>> New South Wales has sent 250 firefighters and 25 search and rescue 
>> specialists.
>> They will join 90 specialists from the ACT.
>> Tasmania's Fire Service is sending trucks and other equipment by ferry, 
>> to join 93 experienced firefighters already in Victoria.
>> The state is also helping Victorian farmers with shipments of fodder.
>> Western Australia will donate $1 million to the Victorian bushfire relief 
>> fund, with more than 22 specialists heading to Victoria and more on 
>> standby.
>> One hundred New Zealand firefighters are also on standby.
>> Forensic experts from several states are also helping to identify the 
>> victims of the fires.
>> Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the army will be helping to find 
>> the bodies of people killed by the bushfires.
>> About 200 soldiers are helping with the disaster in Victoria.
>> Mr Fitzgibbon says they have heavy earth-moving equipment, will be 
>> providing emergency bedding and will also be searching for victims.
>> "They are trained to handle these situations, but that doesn't mean that 
>> it's not very, very difficult for them," he said.
>> "They are there in support of all those organisations and authorities who 
>> other who are over-stretched."
>> The Salvation Army says there has been an overwhelming response to its 
>> Victorian bushfire appeal so far.
>> The charity's Pat Daley says people need to be patient if they are 
>> donating money.
>> "We're being inundated," he said.
>> "We are very, very gratified and pleased at the response - not only us 
>> but the other agencies and government response to the special appeal 
>> that's been set up."
>> The Australian Red Cross says it too has been overwhelmed by the response 
>> so far.
>> It says $1.6 million has been raised so far today, not including large 
>> donations from state governments and corporations.
>>
>> Betty Givin wrote:
>>
>>
>> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 v\:* {}
>> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 o\:* {}
>> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 w\:* {}
>> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 .shape {}
>>
>>
>>
>> #yiv900921027 #yiv530067690 st1\:*{}
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe, as I mentioned to Jessica, I was not aware of all of these disasters 
>> going on in your country. Baruch HaShem that you are okay. How about the 
>> other Aussies on our list? Have you heard anything? I am thinking of 
>> Brian and Catherine, but it seems that there are others? Please let us 
>> know if you have heard anything. Joining you in prayer for the victims 
>> and their families.so very very sad!
>>
>> Shalom v'ahava,
>>
>>
>> Elisheva/Betty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
>> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:47 AM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Victoria 's killer fires | NEWS.com.au
>>
>> Shalom Helen,
>>
>> thank you for your concern regarding Jessica.
>> She has obviously replied to your email.
>> Catherine are you from Melbourne ? If so , how have you been faring 
>> during this catastrophe ?
>>
>> Victoria is a literal inferno and unfortunately the death toll has risen 
>> to 84 and still climbing, making it the worst fire disaster in Australian 
>> history. The loss of human life in the most horrendous circumstances is 
>> very hard to comprehend.
>> Victoria , South Australia and southern New South Wales have been boiling 
>> in temperatures up to 48 degrees C or close to 120 degrees F.
>>
>> When I last spoke to Jessica on Shabbat morning they were bracing 
>> themselves for strong winds and possible fire storms.
>> Fortunately as the gusty winds arrived the envisioned crisis did not 
>> eventuate.
>> Neighbouring Victoria was not so fortunate as all hell broke loose.
>>
>> Meanwhile in Queensland to the north of Australia , my home state ,60% of 
>> the State is under flood waters from the persistent monsoonal drenching 
>> with more to come. Tropical Cyclone Ellie left a path of destruction from 
>> the inundation. There is fear that 2 more cyclones could form in the 
>> Coral Sea .
>>
>> It has not been a good start to the year with South East Queensland being 
>> hammered by severe thunderstorms with large damaging hail. The whole 
>> region from the Sunshine Coast , through Brisbane to the Gold Coast were 
>> devastated from these storms.
>>
>> I pray for the families of all the deceased. May HaShem comfort those 
>> that mourn.
>> I also thank HaShem for all the volunteers that have sacrificed their 
>> time and put their lives in jeopardy for the well being of the 
>> communities.
>>
>> http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html#
>>
>> Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> Skipped content of type multipart/related
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 40
>> ****************************************
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 22:17:27 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:17:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Deputy Attorney General Nominee, David Ogden
In-Reply-To: <291948.70817.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <291948.70817.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS13C05AB452B8136C477CABABA0@phx.gbl>

WHAT A NIGHTMARE!!!!!

Thank you so much, Cody, for telling us about this.

Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "cody oneill" <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:23 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Deputy Attorney General Nominee, David Ogden

> The Nightmarish Possibility of David Ogden at DOJ
> Janice Shaw Crouse
> Tuesday, February 10, 2009
> Our new president has another big problem with one of his nominees. This 
> one hasn?t made headlines yet, but if he is voted through this week by the 
> Senate Judiciary Committee, you?ll hear plenty ? and it?s a nightmarish 
> possibility. David W. Ogden is President Obama?s nominee for Deputy 
> Attorney General at the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ).
>
>
> It would be difficult to find a person less desirable to be second in 
> command at the nation?s top law enforcement agency, the person who would 
> enforce the child pornography and obscenity laws. Throughout his 20-year 
> legal career, David Ogden has argued for the rights of the pornographers 
> over the protection of women and children.
>
> Fidelis, a Catholic-based group of political, legal, research, and 
> educational organizations that seek to defend life, faith, and family, has 
> led the way in exposing David Ogden?s record of advocating that judges 
> consider the social sciences, ?worldwide consensus,? and international law 
> to decide controversial cases, especially in cases involving underage 
> ?suffering? litigants who need ?compassion? rather than Constitutional 
> judgment.
>
> Brian Burch, president of Fidelis, presents an air-tight case against Mr. 
> Ogden?s appointment. Ogden, of course, believes that the Constitution is a 
> ?living? document, an argument that is used to enable judges to rule 
> according to their whims rather than by the ?rule of law.? Typically, he 
> also has a record of supporting the whole package of the homosexual agenda 
> and arguing against parental and spousal notification regarding abortion. 
> We have become resigned to Obama legal appointees holding those leftist 
> views, but Ogden takes it even further.
>
> Burch systematically lays out a case against Ogden?s radical views, citing 
> specific legal arguments that he used in cases about abortion 
> (notification and waiting period requirements restrict a woman?s right to 
> ?choose? ?? even in a case involving a 14-year-old girl), and 
> homosexuality (represented professional psychological associations 
> presenting positive arguments for ?gay? parenting, ?gays? in the military 
> and the inheritance of homosexuality as an immutable characteristic).
>
> Ogden goes far beyond the left into radical territory regarding 
> pornography and obscenity. Burch?s memo states that Ogden, while an 
> attorney in private practice, ?filed briefs pushing for gays in the 
> military, for continued racial preferences, and for a virtually unlimited 
> abortion license.? Worse, Ogden argued for Playboy, Penthouse and the ACLU 
> in obscenity and pornography cases. According to Fidelis, Ogden opposed 
> the Children?s Internet Protection Act (CIPA) and the Child Protection and 
> Obscenity Enforcement Act (CPOEA). The CIPA Act includes a provision 
> requiring Internet filters in federally-funded libraries. The CPOEA Act 
> requires verification that models in pornographic films be certified over 
> age 18. Ogden argued that these requirements placed too heavy a burden on 
> pornographers and infringed on filmmakers? Constitutional rights. Ogden 
> pushed for taxpayer funding to publish Playboy in Braille, he tried to get 
> Playboy off the list of
> ?pornographic? magazines, he argued for ?consenting adults? to have 
> telephone sex, and the list goes on and on in terms of his advocacy for 
> lowering the barriers to moving pornography and obscenity into America?s 
> mainstream.
>
> Further, Mr. Ogden supported racial preferences and showed a lack of 
> respect for private property rights. Ironically for a man who is nominated 
> to uphold United States laws, he advocated the use of international law 
> instead of U.S. law in court cases.
>
> This is a man who opposes commonsense laws that have the support of the 
> majority of Americans. He opposes commonsense restrictions on 
> pornographers. With his firmly held belief in a ?living? Constitution that 
> can be adapted to fit the current situation, and his use of social science 
> to ?prove? the arguments he makes rather than depend on the ?rule of law,? 
> this is a dangerous man to be second in command at the Department of 
> Justice.
>
> Legal activism is always a concern, but when coupled with Ogden?s views, 
> it becomes dangerous. In the DOJ position, he could use the courts as a 
> vehicle for advancing the pro-abortion and homosexual agendas. A person in 
> the DOJ position with his views could unleash the porn and obscenity 
> industries and allow them open access to media and public spaces. The DOJ 
> job would give him the opportunity to favor the pornographers over the 
> people in a major way. It would allow him to open up the airways to 
> obscenity and pornography and remove the last protections for our 
> children.
>
> In his confirmation hearings, Mr. Ogden dismissed his actions during his 
> entire legal career as nothing more than his immaturity. Such a cavalier 
> dismissal of the body of work that brought him the nomination is more than 
> disingenuous, it is misleading and dangerous. The Obama administration has 
> already overturned the Mexico City Policy so that the United States now 
> sends funds to support organizations that promote prostitution and 
> abortion around the world. Are we now looking at a future where the United 
> States will also fund the international production and distribution of 
> pornography?
>
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic 
> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an 
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Feb 10 23:06:47 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:06:47 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
In-Reply-To: <49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>
References: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>
	<49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <46137747A1AC4C4A88CCF34702EF39FD@bettylaptop>

Very special story, Jessica!  Thanks!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Vegemite Rose
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the
bottle,almost like a baby'

 

Hi Betty,
My sister sent me these photos of a heat affected koala in the Adelaide
Hills during the recent extreme temps.
What a wonderful example of a wild animal putting its total trust in a human
being. There were at least two other cyclists standing by as this little one
approached. What trust!!
Thanks for sharing your story.
Jessica




Betty Givin wrote: 

A friend of mine sent this heartwarming photo and wrote, 

 

"I just love this because even in the WORST of circumstances, a random act
of kindness can touch people a world away."

 

 So true!  This reminded me of Jessica's story of her little male koala that
she rescued.  Animals are so sensitive to one another.we could learn much
from then.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

Firefighter David Tree shares his water with an injured Australian koala in
a scorched forest near Mirboo North.

Koala recovering, has suitor
The koala, which turned out to be a female, was in pain but recovering with
antibiotics, Jenny Shaw of the Mountain Ash Wildlife Shelter told
Melbourne's The Herald Sun newspaper.

"She is lovely - very docile - and she has already got an admirer. A male
koala keeps putting his arms around her," Shaw was quoted as saying. "It
will be a long road to recovery, but she should be able to be released back
into the wild in about five months."

 

 

  _____  

 

 





  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/ce63b616/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56613 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/ce63b616/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 41075 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/ce63b616/attachment-0001.jpe 

From helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com  Tue Feb  3 04:52:02 2009
From: helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com (helen.lusk at boehringer-ingelheim.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:52:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Wonderful lecturer and Bible scholar David Solomon
Message-ID: <8FAAAE43B1213749BFB9C1187390195003CBF4A3@RDGEXM05.am.boehringer.com>

 Dear All:

Here is the link to the radio programs David Solomon with Tovia Singer on
Israel National Radio,,,,,,brilliant!  I just discovered him last week.
Perhaps you already know about him.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/1199>    
 
 Kind regards

Helen 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090203/c60fd6ff/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb  7 16:20:24 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:20:24 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shevat.
Message-ID: <498E0928.9080100@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Almond_blossoms_branch.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 27338 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogwheat.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 39945 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0001.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogbarley.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 30612 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0002.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogfigs.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 52975 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0003.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogdates.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 48997 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogpomeg.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 43688 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0004.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bloggrapes.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 36273 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0005.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: blogolives.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 24630 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/3b96bf57/attachment-0006.jpg 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Feb  8 05:52:00 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:52:00 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: I know we're having a heat wave, but.....]
Message-ID: <498EC760.1000705@westnet.com.au>


-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Meira Kurfurst" <meirak at tpg.com.au>
Subject: I know we're having a heat wave, but.....
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:10:09 +1000
Size: 696138
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090208/9fd7c606/attachment.eml 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Tue Feb 10 20:30:58 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:30:58 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: A GOOD Koala Heatwave Stroy
Message-ID: <200902110230.n1B2UvbI024074@mail384c25.carrierzone.com>


>Hi Gang,

Here is a set of pix someone sent me re one of God's koalas.  Perhaps 
it will somehow be the next best thing to the pix that were lost. 
Perhaps it is a picture of how Hashem will take care of us in 
the  hard times to come.

Steve


>>Subject: Fw: The Koala Heatwave Story
>>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>This is one positive story from the massive 40 degree plus 
>>temperatures, the heat wavesand the fires in Victoria,  Australia 
>>in the last week and especially the last three days.
>>
>>PS: Please say prayers for the 130 plus human victims of the fires 
>>and for the thousands of animal victims.....
>>
>>  Forwarded:   --- Check this out, I thought you would appreciate 
>> how cute this is...!
>>
>>  At home in Victoria the temperature has been above 44  degrees 
>> all week and they are forecasting another week of 40+ 
>> temperatures.  Power is failing, trains have stopped running 
>> because tracks are buckling under the heat .  It's just 
>> scorching,  and it seems that the people are not the only ones 
>> suffering.  Check out these photos of a little Koala which just 
>> walked  onto  a  back porch looking for a bit of heat 
>> relief.   The woman filled up a bucket  for it and this is what happened!
>>
>>
>>----------
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG.
>>Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1933 - Release Date: 
>>2/3/2009 5:48 PM
>>[]
>>[]
>>[]
>>[]
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c10a5d24/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 4f5b12.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 99839 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c10a5d24/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 4f5ba8.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 133363 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c10a5d24/attachment-0001.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 4f5c34.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 129191 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c10a5d24/attachment-0002.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 4f5cca.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 139154 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090210/c10a5d24/attachment-0003.jpg 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 07:08:35 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 05:08:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site
Message-ID: <195273.74042.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Gas Discovery Larger than Expected

Reported: 13:28 PM - Feb/11/09

(IsraelNN.com) A massive natural gas find off the coast of Haifa, which was lauded as capable of fueling all of Israel for 15 years, is actually more than 60 percent larger than originally estimated, according to the American partner in the drill, Noble Energy Inc.  

Israeli companies Isramco Negev 2, Delek Drilling, Avner Oil Exploration, and Dor Gas Exploration had the majority of the stake on the dig ? named Tamar-1 ? which is estimated at a potential of 5 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. That estimate is up from January, at which time the partners believed the well contained 3 million cubic feet of gas.

The team will keep their drilling rig in the area for two more wells they believe may be present as well. "The implications of this discovery to Israel cannot be overstated," said Noble Energy Chief Executive Officer Charles Davidson, in a statement issued after following the revision of the estimate.



"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 10:04:43 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:04:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Karaite Korner Newsletter] #364: Miraculous Salvation
	in the Name
Message-ID: <COL119-DS10F751A6CB160F2F943DAEBABA0@phx.gbl>

PLEASE LOOK AT THIS MIRACULOUS STORY!

Avigail/Pat


From: ngordon4 
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:05 AM
To: karaite_korner_news at yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Karaite Korner Newsletter] #364: Miraculous Salvation in the Name


Miraculous Salvation in the Name

Last Saturday night one of our regular new moon observers, CB Newman,
was attacked by Arabs and just barely escaped with his life. He was on
his way home from watching a video with me and some friends in North
Talpiot when he took a wrong turn into an Arab area. The Arabs
probably identified him as a Jew when they saw his blue and white
tzitzit and they attacked him, stabbing him in the neck. Ironically
the location of the attack is known as the "Peace Forest". I was
interviewed by police yesterday who are investigating the attack as an
"attempted pre-meditated murder" and they told me that Newman's
survival was nothing short of a miracle. Here is the description of
Newman's miraculous escape from the clutches of death in his own words:

"I am completely fine, I got out of the hospital yesterday. I was
attacked by three Arabs with a knife in the outskirts of Ha-Shalom
Forest. They slit my throat, I tried to get away, but I couldn't. They
held me down to beat me and cut me with the knife. You should know,
after failing to escape I cried to Yehovah in desperation,
immediately, that actual second, I was out of their grip and ran into
the woods, they weren't able catch me, halleluyah. I finally reached a
gas station where an ambulance was called. I was taken to a hospital
and put under anesthesia. They stitched up my neck and head. I was
told a few centimeters deeper and my arteries would have been cut, but
I'm fine. There was no major damage, I just have scarring. I'm going
back to the hospital on Sunday to have the stitches taken out. I'm
really alright though, thank God." 

The incident was also reported by the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1233304715382
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=1062458&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1

Praise Yehovah the King of all Creation for this miraculous salvation
in his holy name! 

Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel



__._,_.___
Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic 
Messages 
MARKETPLACE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods 
 
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional 
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity
  a..  8New Members
Visit Your Group 
Yahoo! News
Odd News

You won't believe

it, but it's true

Share Photos
Put your favorite

photos and

more online.

Yahoo! Finance
It's Now Personal

Guides, news,

advice & more.
. 

__,_._,___
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/504e89fe/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 10:06:37 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:06:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site
In-Reply-To: <195273.74042.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <195273.74042.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS24BCB2BB06B780F86524B1BABA0@phx.gbl>

BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!!!

Thanks, Cody!

Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "cody oneill" <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:08 AM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site

> Gas Discovery Larger than Expected
>
> Reported: 13:28 PM - Feb/11/09
>
> (IsraelNN.com) A massive natural gas find off the coast of Haifa, which 
> was lauded as capable of fueling all of Israel for 15 years, is actually 
> more than 60 percent larger than originally estimated, according to the 
> American partner in the drill, Noble Energy Inc.
>
> Israeli companies Isramco Negev 2, Delek Drilling, Avner Oil Exploration, 
> and Dor Gas Exploration had the majority of the stake on the dig ? named 
> Tamar-1 ? which is estimated at a potential of 5 trillion cubic feet of 
> natural gas. That estimate is up from January, at which time the partners 
> believed the well contained 3 million cubic feet of gas.
>
> The team will keep their drilling rig in the area for two more wells they 
> believe may be present as well. "The implications of this discovery to 
> Israel cannot be overstated," said Noble Energy Chief Executive Officer 
> Charles Davidson, in a statement issued after following the revision of 
> the estimate.
>
>
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic 
> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an 
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 10:54:42 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:54:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Steve Mathe's Koala Photos!!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS193991FC0FCD1CF5BEABB4BABA0@phx.gbl>

Steve,

Those photos are fabulous, fantastic, marvelous and heart-warming!!!!!!  Have passed them on to everyone.

Thank you so much,

Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/81d4db2f/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb 11 12:48:17 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:48:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Steve Mathe's Koala Photos!!
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS193991FC0FCD1CF5BEABB4BABA0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS193991FC0FCD1CF5BEABB4BABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E63B671129DD4DFB9658BA1B45FB7641@bettylaptop>

Yes, Steve.thanks so much for these beautiful photos!  I am sure Jessica
appreciates them too since she lost her pix of her little koala.

 

Take care,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:55 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Steve Mathe's Koala Photos!!

 

Steve,

 

Those photos are fabulous, fantastic, marvelous and heart-warming!!!!!!
Have passed them on to everyone.

 

Thank you so much,

 

Pat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/9f01650e/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Wed Feb 11 19:57:01 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:27:01 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Steve Mathe's Koala Photos!!
In-Reply-To: <E63B671129DD4DFB9658BA1B45FB7641@bettylaptop>
References: <COL119-DS193991FC0FCD1CF5BEABB4BABA0@phx.gbl>
	<E63B671129DD4DFB9658BA1B45FB7641@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <499381ED.9060403@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090212/b9922b72/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb 11 19:59:03 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:59:03 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS24BCB2BB06B780F86524B1BABA0@phx.gbl>
References: <195273.74042.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL119-DS24BCB2BB06B780F86524B1BABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <59E89157141E40ADA3852CFD0C530465@bettylaptop>

Wonderful news!  Yes, BARUCH HASHEM!!!

Toda rabba, Cody for this and all the valuable information you provide to
us.

Elisheva/Betty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site

BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!!!

Thanks, Cody!

Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "cody oneill" <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:08 AM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Tamar Drilling Site

> Gas Discovery Larger than Expected
>
> Reported: 13:28 PM - Feb/11/09
>
> (IsraelNN.com) A massive natural gas find off the coast of Haifa, which 
> was lauded as capable of fueling all of Israel for 15 years, is actually 
> more than 60 percent larger than originally estimated, according to the 
> American partner in the drill, Noble Energy Inc.
>
> Israeli companies Isramco Negev 2, Delek Drilling, Avner Oil Exploration, 
> and Dor Gas Exploration had the majority of the stake on the dig - named 
> Tamar-1 - which is estimated at a potential of 5 trillion cubic feet of 
> natural gas. That estimate is up from January, at which time the partners 
> believed the well contained 3 million cubic feet of gas.
>
> The team will keep their drilling rig in the area for two more wells they 
> believe may be present as well. "The implications of this discovery to 
> Israel cannot be overstated," said Noble Energy Chief Executive Officer 
> Charles Davidson, in a statement issued after following the revision of 
> the estimate.
>
>
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic 
> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an

> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 
_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb 11 22:27:57 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:27:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] [Karaite Korner Newsletter] #364: Miraculous
	Salvationin the Name
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS10F751A6CB160F2F943DAEBABA0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS10F751A6CB160F2F943DAEBABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2FD23B1F8ABD460E8D5052DBA2CAB43F@bettylaptop>

WOW!  This is a miraculous story, Pat!  So glad you found it and shared it
with us!  I am sure there is power in HaShem's Name and CV Newman definitely
found out!  I am wondering what this might be able to teach us when we have
urgent prayer needs.I for one generally use HaShem or Adonai as I have
honored the Orthodox view of not speaking G-d's name.this "non-use" of the
Name has kept it from being abused and misused and taken in vain, but now I
am wondering if in our private prayers or times of urgent answers, that we
might use it as this man did!  It is definitely something to think about and
to pray about.

 

HaShem did, after all, tell Moses his Name when Moses asked him, and in the
prophets we also read, thus says Yud Hey Vav Hey, when the message is
something that the prophet needed to emphasize, yet I am not Moses, and am
not a prophet.definite food for thought though.

 

Thank you for sharing this amazing story with us,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:05 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] [Karaite Korner Newsletter] #364: Miraculous Salvationin
the Name

 

PLEASE LOOK AT THIS MIRACULOUS STORY!

 

Avigail/Pat

 

From: ngordon4 <mailto:ngordon4 at gmail.com>  

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:05 AM

To: karaite_korner_news at yahoogroups.com 

Subject: [Karaite Korner Newsletter] #364: Miraculous Salvation in the Name

 

Miraculous Salvation in the Name

Last Saturday night one of our regular new moon observers, CB Newman,
was attacked by Arabs and just barely escaped with his life. He was on
his way home from watching a video with me and some friends in North
Talpiot when he took a wrong turn into an Arab area. The Arabs
probably identified him as a Jew when they saw his blue and white
tzitzit and they attacked him, stabbing him in the neck. Ironically
the location of the attack is known as the "Peace Forest". I was
interviewed by police yesterday who are investigating the attack as an
"attempted pre-meditated murder" and they told me that Newman's
survival was nothing short of a miracle. Here is the description of
Newman's miraculous escape from the clutches of death in his own words:

"I am completely fine, I got out of the hospital yesterday. I was
attacked by three Arabs with a knife in the outskirts of Ha-Shalom
Forest. They slit my throat, I tried to get away, but I couldn't. They
held me down to beat me and cut me with the knife. You should know,
after failing to escape I cried to Yehovah in desperation,
immediately, that actual second, I was out of their grip and ran into
the woods, they weren't able catch me, halleluyah. I finally reached a
gas station where an ambulance was called. I was taken to a hospital
and put under anesthesia. They stitched up my neck and head. I was
told a few centimeters deeper and my arteries would have been cut, but
I'm fine. There was no major damage, I just have scarring. I'm going
back to the hospital on Sunday to have the stitches taken out. I'm
really alright though, thank God." 

The incident was also reported by the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz:
http://www.jpost.
<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFul
l&cid=1233304715382>
com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=123330471538
2
http://www.haaretz.
<http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=1062458&displayTypeCd
=1&sideCd=1>
com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=1062458&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1

Praise Yehovah the King of all Creation for this miraculous salvation
in his holy name! 

Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel

__._,_.___

 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/message/387;_ylc=X3oDMTMx
MjBqNjZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEbXNnSWQD
Mzg3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIzNDM2MTEyNgR0cGNJZAMzODc-> Messages
in this topic (1)
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJuaGRtM3U
xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEbXNnSWQDMzg3BHN
lYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIzNDM2MTEyNg--?act=reply&messageNum=387>
Reply (via web post) |
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbm42OGM
zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGs
DbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjM0MzYxMTI2> Start a new topic 

Messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZWJ
iaDdrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA2Z0cgR
zbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMjM0MzYxMTI2>  

MARKETPLACE

  _____  

From
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13rdvmueb/M=493064.12016295.13271503.10835568/D
=groups/S=1705076315:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1234368326/L=/B=BYnjC0PDhFw-/J=1234361
126533363/A=5530388/R=0/SIG=11nuutlas/*http:/explore.yahoo.com/groups/kraftm
ealsmadesimple/>  kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft
Foods 

 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaGlnbGQxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0M
jEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQzNjExMjY->
Yahoo! Groups
Change
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc2RrZWV
iBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGs
Dc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIzNDM2MTEyNg-->  settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID
required) 
Change settings via email: Switch
<mailto:karaite_korner_news-digest at yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:
%20Digest>  delivery to Daily Digest | Switch
<mailto:karaite_korner_news-traditional at yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Del
ivery%20Format:%20Traditional>  format to Traditional 
Visit
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news;_ylc=X3oDMTJjMmNpNm9mBF9T
Azk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBm
BHN0aW1lAzEyMzQzNjExMjY->  Your Group | Yahoo! Groups
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
<mailto:karaite_korner_news-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=>  

Recent Activity

*                                  8

New
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWJ2
N2trBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA3Z0bARz
bGsDdm1icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIzNDM2MTEyNg-->  Members

Visit
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdXFiNTE1BF9T
Azk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0MjEzMwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzYzMTUEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdo
cARzdGltZQMxMjM0MzYxMTI2>  Your Group 

Yahoo! News

Odd
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oqblpcj/M=493064.12016309.12445701.8674578/D=
groups/S=1705076315:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1234368326/L=/B=BonjC0PDhFw-/J=1234361126
533363/A=3848614/R=0/SIG=12t4qk00m/*http:/news.yahoo.com/i/757;_ylt=A9FJqYzf
wK5EFCQAswis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3NW1oMDRpBHNlYwM3NTc->  News

You won't believe

it, but it's true

Share Photos

Put
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oe3ick7/M=493064.12016255.12445662.8674578/D=
groups/S=1705076315:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1234368326/L=/B=B4njC0PDhFw-/J=1234361126
533363/A=4025373/R=0/SIG=12dtn7qjm/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44092/*http:/s
mallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting>  your favorite

photos and

more online.

Yahoo! Finance

It's
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13op421a7/M=493064.12016257.12445664.8674578/D=
groups/S=1705076315:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1234368326/L=/B=CInjC0PDhFw-/J=1234361126
533363/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http:/f
inance.yahoo.com/personal-finance>  Now Personal

Guides, news,

advice & more.

.

 
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=142133/grpspId=1705076315/msgId=
387/stime=1234361126/nc1=3848614/nc2=4025373/nc3=4507179> 

__,_._,___

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/7777d70f/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb 11 22:39:32 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:39:32 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] CRY THE CHILDREN
In-Reply-To: <49652E85.5060300@westnet.com.au>
References: <49652E85.5060300@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <E1F035A1BA0549CB9B1FFBBA203B5CCA@bettylaptop>

Very sobering video, Joe!  It is simply beyond me how these people can be so
inhumane and so evil.I suppose it comes from baseless hatred.such hatred has
to do something to twist warp the heart and soul  and mind of a person, for
how else could they have such total disregard for their children?  You are
right.there are no words to describe it!!!!!

 

I am glad you sent this.it should be circulated world wide.this should open
some eyes!!!!

 

Continuing to pray for the peace of Y'rushalayim and the innocent children,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:37 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] CRY THE CHILDREN

 

Shalom Chaverim,

I recently posted a visual presentation concerning the children of Sderot
and the surrounding areas within rocket range of the deranged Chamas
murdering terrorists.

You would have seen the painstaking and meticulous detail that the Israelis
demonstrate towards the protection of their children. The building of
creative concrete bunkers in the shape of caterpillars and other playground
equipment at schools and kindergartens to the building of reinforced
concrete shelters over school roofs is more than ample proof that the
Israelis love and cherish their children.

Now watch this horrible video of how Chamas treat their children. It was
sent to me by Dror.
Disgusting, putrid, evil inhumanity, @*%###....... there are no words to
describe it.

Tragedy, pain and suffering are what we are seeing. However love will always
triumph over evil.

Elisheva you commented on the look on my face when I was holding my G-dson
Pele Yosef ben Noam.
Yes, I was happy and proud , but the inner feeling was much much deeper.
I was told that most of the Kahane family had died at the end of a
Palestinian gun, from Rabbi Meir to his son Benyamin and his wife. Too many
other incidents to write down here.
So the little wonder boy together with all the youth are the Hatikvah (hope)
of a nation.
The shed blood of his Jewish martyred family was not spilled in vain. His
birth is a living testimony that love conquers all. Hatred must stand aside.
His name is so messianic..... no wonder (pun intended)

I do not have any children. But I have 4 Jewish G-dchildren , not to mention
the 6 children of Dror and Eli. HaShem made this Sicilian into a true
G-dfather. They together with all the innocent children of the world are our
G-d given inheritance to a future of hope and joy.
Nothing,and I mean nothing can ever remove this love, faith and hope. In the
end true Ahavah will prevail.

Let the evil descendants of Molech who burn their children on the altars of
political and religious expediency be judged by the ALMIGHTY. 
May HaShem vindicate the blood of all innocent children in the world who are
exploited not only by this conflict but by the child sex slave traders,
child work slave traders , drug traffickers and paedophiles .

Let us all teach our children and G-dchildren this incredible lesson on the
sanctity of human life that was ordained by our Father in Heaven.
Let us also be prepared to combat even to the point of war this very
principle in order to remove this evil cancer from the world. We cannot be
in Israel to fight this battle but we can truely fight this cancer by loving
the children that surround us. This is the first cause.

By Divine decree we owe it to our children and our children's children to
leave a loving legacy on which to build a future world ........... lest the
children cry.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/c03e63fc/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 12 09:04:32 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:04:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] What Happened on YOUR Birthday?
In-Reply-To: <E1F035A1BA0549CB9B1FFBBA203B5CCA@bettylaptop>
References: <49652E85.5060300@westnet.com.au>
	<E1F035A1BA0549CB9B1FFBBA203B5CCA@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <002701c98d23$3789a870$a69cf950$@com>

This is really cool, fun and most of all, very interesting. After you've
finished reading the info, click again, and see what the moon looked like
the night you were born. This is neat. Who says our time clocks aren't
ticking... Click below: 


  

Birthday Calculator <http://www.paulsadowski.com/birthday.asp>  

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090212/0e587668/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 13:07:53 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News
Message-ID: <748673.19947.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom everyone!
?
Below is a link to an interview with a radio station out of Carlsbad NM.? I hope everyone enjoys it!!
?
http://wildvoice.com/kosherradio/Posts/Israel-World-News-Television-2009-02-12
?
Cody

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090212/82f83fea/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 14:24:21 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:24:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] US worried over prospect of right-wing gov't
Message-ID: <580692.61024.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


?
Feb. 11, 2009
hilary leila krieger, the jerusalem post, washington , THE JERUSALEM POST 
US officials are publicly taking a wait-and-see approach to the formation of a new Israeli government, but privately many have expressed concern that Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu might preside over a right-wing coalition. 
"There would be great unease" at the prospect of such a government, said one Capitol Hill source. 
He predicted that a governing coalition of parties from the Right could embolden the left flank of the Democratic party and turn up pressure, particularly in the US Congress, to pass measures that made clear demands on Israel. 
He distinguished, however, between a Netanyahu-led right-wing coalition and Netanyahu-led national unity government. 
Despite the Likud's second-place finish to the centrist Kadima party, parties on the Right won more of the vote, which means Netanyahu might have an easier time forming a hawkish coalition but could try to work out a formula for a unity government, as could Kadima head Tzipi Livni. 
The Capitol Hill source, who didn't want to be identified speaking about another country's internal politics, noted that Netanyahu had made a strong effort to reach out to the Obama administration and made the case to the US and the Israeli public that he could work with the White House. 
He said that attitude could help assuage US concerns when presented in a national-unity package, whose positions - whether under Netanyahu or Livni - would be more in line with the US's own policies of engagement on Arab-Israeli reconciliation. 
"The hope is that there is a government that is really committed to peace with the Palestinians," The Washington Post quoted one senior administration official saying. 
Even if Netanyahu prevails, the official added, "he's grown over the years. Getting back to the talks with the Palestinians is really the only solution." 
Ron Dermer, a senior adviser to Netanyahu, said Wednesday that the Likud leader strongly preferred to put together a national-unity government that looked toward the center of the country's political spectrum rather than a right-wing coalition. 
"He's said his biggest mistake when he was prime minister last time was not reaching out to Shimon Peres," who then headed the Labor party, Dermer said on a conference call with the United Jewish Communities and the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. "I do not believe he will make the same mistake this time. 
"I very much hope that Tzipi Livni will put politics aside" to sit in a Likud-led government, Dermer added. 
Still, many political analysts say there's no doubt the Obama administration would prefer to see a national-unity government headed by Livni. 
"The impression in Israel is that the Obama administration has already made its preference known and that its preference is for Kadima - and that impression isn't going anywhere," said Georgetown University professor and Israel expert Michael Oren. 
"They'd rather work with a centrist government than a right-wing government." 
He added that the preference of the Obama camp, with its interest in intensive diplomacy, was "legitimate," noting that many Israelis preferred Republican presidential candidate John McCain because they observed a greater alignment of views. 
When it comes to Livni, the administration sees someone who has spent the last year working with the Palestinians as part of a negotiating process and made the two-state solution an important part of her campaign, while Netanyahu has been much more circumspect on the extent of his support for that formulation, focusing his campaign on the need for security. 
And while Netanyahu did sign agreements that gave control of West Bank areas to the Palestinians as prime minister in the late '90s, he had a troubled relationship with many of the American officials who served under then president Bill Clinton, several of whom are returning to office under Obama. 
Dennis Ross, Clinton's Middle East envoy and likely to be a top regional representative, described Netanyahu as "overcome by hubris" after his first election to the premiership and recalled him being "nearly insufferable, lecturing and telling us how to deal with the Arabs" in his book on the Oslo peace process. 
Still, publicly US officials are welcoming the Israeli democratic process and indicating their readiness to work with whoever becomes prime minister. 
"This is a choice these Israeli people will have to make. Once that new government is formed, regardless of who is in that government, we will work with that government," said US State Department Acting Spokesman Robert Wood on Wednesday. 
"We look forward to working with that new government once it's formed. We have a robust agenda with the government of Israel, as you know. And so we're looking forward to getting down to business with the new government." 
When questioned about whether a government with right-wing leadership would hurt American peace efforts, Wood responded, "We certainly hope that a new government will continue to pursue a path to peace. I see no reason to think that a new government would do something otherwise." 
He added that he knew of no change to Middle East envoy George Mitchell's plans to make his second visit to Israel at the end of the month. 
"The administration is being very cautious," said an Israeli official about the silence from US officials right now. 
He noted that regardless of their views, they understood that they could have to work with both leaders and didn't want to prejudice either relationship. 
Oren said the US leadership had done better at keeping a lid on its feelings than many previous US and Israeli governments. 
"This administration is more constrained and more controlled in saying whom they prefer," he said. 
He added that if the US expressed its preference for Livni too loudly, it could backfire and hurt her position. He compared the situation to the boost in the polls Israel Beiteinu leader Avigdor Lieberman received from the police's pursuit of corruption charges, since some of his supporters felt he was being unfairly targeted. 
"It could boomerang, just like Lieberman picked up [support] from the police investigation," he said.

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090212/913fb1c7/attachment.html 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Thu Feb 12 19:12:06 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:42:06 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] US worried over prospect of right-wing gov't
In-Reply-To: <580692.61024.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <580692.61024.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4994C8E6.3090309@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/aaa2f9bb/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 19:44:20 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:44:20 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] US worried over prospect of right-wing gov't
In-Reply-To: <4994C8E6.3090309@y7mail.com>
References: <580692.61024.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4994C8E6.3090309@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902121744g5e739736pade56373691b20db@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Jessica,

       Glad to hear that you're well, with all the devastation occurring in
Australia (I just read that it might have been islamic arson..).  This
article that Rav Kahane, H"YD (may G-d avenge his blood) wrote 32 years ago
remains as timely as ever; thank you so much for posting it!

        In the time of the prophets, they made it clear that our salvation
would never come from Egypt, Assyria or anywhere else.  How much truer now,
then from the USA or the UN, the EU, or any other combination of letters you
can come up with.  We only have HaKadosh Baruch Hu - the Holy One Blessed is
HE.  That's all we need, but there are still so many of us that 'don't get
it.'

        May we be blessed to open our eyes, and turn our hearts to HaShem.

         Take care and Shabbat Shalom,
                   * Hanoch*

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>wrote:

> Thank you Cody,
> Some things never change, as this article from Rabbi Meir Kahane reveals.
> Brachot v'Shalom
> Jessica
>
>  *FROM THE DESK OF* BARBARA GINSBERG
>
>
> "K A H A N E"
>
> *The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea*
> May 1977 ? Sivan 5737   OUR FRIEND, OUR ENEMY
>
>
>
> There appears to be a popular and dangerous misconception that has spread
> among Jews to the effect that one who opposes Jews is necessarily and
> anti-Semite and that hatred or hostility to Jews is the trademark of the
> enemy.  The fallacy in this must be exposed lest we fail to properly
> assess the real enemy and act in the manner most calculated to thwart him.
>
>
>
> To be sure, every anti-Semite is an enemy of the Jewish people but the
> converse ? that every enemy is an anti-Semite is not necessarily true for it
> is clearly possible for one to be not an anti-Semite (or at least not
> particularly so or not more so than most gentiles) and still to be a deadly
> threat to the Jew, hence, his enemy.  More, it is possible for a gentile
> to sincerely respect and admire Jews and Israel, to sympathize with their
> plight and still be their enemy.  And because this axiom is so relevant to
> our times; because the greatest danger can come from the nation that most
> sympathizes with and is numbered as the best of the allies (if not the only
> one), it is important to analyze the concept and act upon that analysis.
>
>
>
> Long before de Gaulle or Churchill it was clear to any student of world or
> local politics that there are no allies but only interests.  Nations that
> were bitter enemies but yesterday become close allies today, because they
> have suddenly discovered ? due to shifting circumstances ? that their
> interests coincide.  Countries that only a short time ago fought side by
> side, turn into bitter rivals because their interests now clash.  It is
> not due to love or hate, and rarely does ideology have anything to do with
> the fact that Communist China will side with the blackest of reactionaries
> against their fellow Marxist Soviet Union because of national interests.
>
>
>
> France, which in 1956 began a decade-long "love affair" with Israel, did so
> not out of "love" of Mordechai" but out of the knowledge that the Suez
> Canal, Nasser and the Arab struggle against French rule in Algeria, made the
> *enemy of her enemy her friend.  *All over Israel there sprung up
> Israel-French friendship societies and to be French was to be loved in
> Israel.  And then, the world turned upside down and the couple broke up
> rudely and suddenly.  France suddenly emerged as the great ally of the
> Arabs and the most bitter enemy of Israel in the west.  Was there a sudden
> change in French attitudes toward Jews?  Was De Gaulle suddenly turned
> into an anti-Semite? Hardly!  The French may have disliked Jews before but
> that did not prevent them from being their number one arms supplier.  Any
> change now had nothing to do with likes or dislikes.  What had changed was
> not the personality of the French but their political outlook.  The
> Algerian war having ended and the scars of the French colonial struggle
> having healed, De Gaulle and the French now realized that the Arab world
> with its oil and growing political and economic power was important to
> French interests.  And because of this, French policy took a 180-degree
> turn.  Had Israel had the oil and the power, the French today would be
> wearing yarmulkes in the streets, if necessary.
>
>
>
>
>
> And since one can sympathize with gallant Israel and admire her and still
> be motivated by self-interests to take stands that threaten her very
> existence, let it be understood that it is not the Soviet Union or the Arab
> states that stand today as the ultimate main enemy of Israel, but rather the
> country that in recent years was the best if not only ally ? the *United
> States.*
>
>
>
> The Soviets cannot force Israel to give in ? they do not provide her with
> economic aid or weapons.  The Arabs cannot destroy Israel militarily.  It
> is Washington which has the greatest leverage.  It is Washington that can
> turn off the military and economic faucet.  It is Washington that can
> twist arms, choke and pressure.  It is Washington that ? because of its
> interests are so opposed to those of Israel ? is today the greatest enemy.
> *It is Washington that is our friend, our enemy.*
>
>
>
> There is no hatred of Israel here; there is no anti-Semitism involved and
> only fools will use that yardstick to gauge whether America is dangerous for
> Israel.  It is the Jewish Establishment leader who knows a Carter or a
> Vance or any other policy maker well and who says: I know that they are
> decent people who have not an anti-Semitic bone in their bodies, who blind
> us to the danger.  For the anatomy of the policy makers in Washington is
> irrelevant and though their bones be pure and free of hate, it is their
> interests that are the issue. And for the hundredth time I say: American
> interests are oil and the every-growing dependency on the Arab states; they
> are the billions in profits to be made in investment in Arab states; they
> are the petrodollars that, if invested in New York rather than Tokyo or
> Frankfort or Paris, will aid the American economy; they are the Russians
> whom Washington wishes to keep out of the Middle East.
>
>
>
> All of these interests are clearly seen as favoring a pro-Arab policy and
> Israel with neither oil nor money nor the ability to woo the Russians, is at
> best a nuisance to America and at worst, dangerous.  Thus, Carter and all
> the others who salute the brave men of Entebbe and who may honestly respect
> Israel's gallant fight, will nevertheless begin a brutal campaign to choke
> her into *suicidal concessions* ? without hate; only with the thought:  Is
> it good for the United States?
>
>
>
> And so Carter clearly says what I have cried out for months now:  We may
> have to impose a solution. Of course, he does not use those words.  Instead
> he says:  "I would not hesitate if I saw clearly a fair and equitable
> solution to use the full strength of our country and its persuasive power in
> an effort to bring those nations to agreement."  No, not "imposing of the
> will" but only "persuasion" and "full strength".  And of course, all the
> Jewish leaders know what he really means and are quiet because in Israel the
> Labor Party fears to show the people that its policy of "friendship with
> America" is a failure and the American Jewish Establishment is terrified of
> a real confrontation with Carter because it knows how weak Jews really are
> in the face of a popular President and more, because it is horrified at the
> prospect of a surge of massive anti-Semitism in the event of a clash between
> U.S. and Israeli policy.
>
>
>
> And so George Ball writes in Foreign affairs that America must insist on
> total Israeli withdrawal and threaten to "suspend governmental assistance"
> as well as "eliminate essential tax credits (i.e. UJA) and take other
> administrative action to restrict the flow of cash gifts and bond purchases
> from American private citizens."  Is George Ball an enemy of Israel?
> Clearly.  Is he an anti-Semite, a Jew hater?  Consider how he begins the
> article:
>
>
>
> "Most Americans approach the problems of the Middle East with a pro-Israel
> bias *? and rightly so. * The desire of a dispersed people for a homeland
> cannot but evoke sympathy even of those with no Jewish roots?"  Indeed,
> the very title of the article is:  "How to Save Israel In Spite of
> Herself."  No greater sympathy had an investment banker?
>
>
>
> It is time to stop prattling childishly about love and hate, pro-Semites
> and antis.  It is time to clearly realize that under all circumstances the
> United States interests differ radically from those of Israel and that
> Washington is committed to her own interests as she understands them.  U.S.
> pressure will grow to intolerable degrees.  She will turn on Israel and
> choke her with the suggestions of George Ball, for Ball speaks for a great
> many other Americans.  In the Readers Digest of April, 1977 Senior Editor
> William Griffith writes an article titled: "Let's Resolve the Middle East
> Crisis-Now!"  and says: "Indeed, our aid which totals nearly $1.8 billion
> dollars this year is essential to keep Israel going.  If we make it plain
> to Israeli officials that we are determined to see their nation withdraw
> they will act accordingly."  Both he and Ball and Jack Anderson in a
> column ("When the Arabs Speak, More are Listening") emphasize over and over
> again the American dependence on Arab oil and the lessons to be learned from
> this.
>
>
>
> What must be done? Clearly to begin to stop speaking of "good" and "bad"
> people in Washington.  Good or bad, they are all bad for Israel and the
> next step is to gather Jewish strength all over the world and to demand that
> Jewish leaders bury the fear of anti-Semitism.  Let there be support for a
> powerful government in Israel that says *no* to the pressure and that lets
> Washington know that it means it.  Let the Administration know clearly
> that Israel is developing weapons of mass destruction-atomic, chemical and
> biological-to use in the event of an American cutoff of conventional arms.
> Let procedures be planned to evade any American attempt to prevent private
> funds from reaching Israel.  And let us return to faith in G-d
>
>
>
> The crux of the matter is *interests.*  The Americans are clearly
> committed to their own. Let the Jew do no less.
>
>
>
> *Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to
> receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be,
> please contact me at:*
>
> *barhow at netvision.net.il  *
>
> * *
>
> *Visit my blog for previously e-mailed Rav Kahane writings:*
>
> *http:/www.barbaraginsberg.blogspot.com<http://mail.google.com/www.barbaraginsberg.blogspot.com>
> ***
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> cody oneill wrote:
>
>   [image: The Jerusalem Post Internet Edition] <http://www.jpost.com/>
>
>
> Feb. 11, 2009
> hilary leila krieger, the jerusalem post, washington , THE JERUSALEM POST
> US officials are publicly taking a wait-and-see approach to the formation
> of a new Israeli government, but privately many have expressed concern that
> Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu might preside over a right-wing coalition. "There
> would be great unease" at the prospect of such a government, said one
> Capitol Hill source. He predicted that a governing coalition of parties
> from the Right could embolden the left flank of the Democratic party and
> turn up pressure, particularly in the US Congress, to pass measures that
> made clear demands on Israel. He distinguished, however, between a
> Netanyahu-led right-wing coalition and Netanyahu-led national unity
> government. Despite the Likud's second-place finish to the centrist Kadima
> party, parties on the Right won more of the vote, which means Netanyahu
> might have an easier time forming a hawkish coalition but could try to work
> out a formula for a unity government, as could Kadima head Tzipi Livni. The
> Capitol Hill source, who didn't want to be identified speaking about another
> country's internal politics, noted that Netanyahu had made a strong effort
> to reach out to the Obama administration and made the case to the US and the
> Israeli public that he could work with the White House. He said that
> attitude could help assuage US concerns when presented in a national-unity
> package, whose positions - whether under Netanyahu or Livni - would be more
> in line with the US's own policies of engagement on Arab-Israeli
> reconciliation. "The hope is that there is a government that is really
> committed to peace with the Palestinians," *The Washington Post *quoted
> one senior administration official saying. Even if Netanyahu prevails, the
> official added, "he's grown over the years. Getting back to the talks with
> the Palestinians is really the only solution." Ron Dermer, a senior
> adviser to Netanyahu, said Wednesday that the Likud leader strongly
> preferred to put together a national-unity government that looked toward the
> center of the country's political spectrum rather than a right-wing
> coalition. "He's said his biggest mistake when he was prime minister last
> time was not reaching out to Shimon Peres," who then headed the Labor party,
> Dermer said on a conference call with the United Jewish Communities and the
> Jewish Council for Public Affairs. "I do not believe he will make the same
> mistake this time. "I very much hope that Tzipi Livni will put politics
> aside" to sit in a Likud-led government, Dermer added. Still, many
> political analysts say there's no doubt the Obama administration would
> prefer to see a national-unity government headed by Livni. "The impression
> in Israel is that the Obama administration has already made its preference
> known and that its preference is for Kadima - and that impression isn't
> going anywhere," said Georgetown University professor and Israel expert
> Michael Oren. "They'd rather work with a centrist government than a
> right-wing government." He added that the preference of the Obama camp,
> with its interest in intensive diplomacy, was "legitimate," noting that many
> Israelis preferred Republican presidential candidate John McCain because
> they observed a greater alignment of views. When it comes to Livni, the
> administration sees someone who has spent the last year working with the
> Palestinians as part of a negotiating process and made the two-state
> solution an important part of her campaign, while Netanyahu has been much
> more circumspect on the extent of his support for that formulation, focusing
> his campaign on the need for security. And while Netanyahu did sign
> agreements that gave control of West Bank areas to the Palestinians as prime
> minister in the late '90s, he had a troubled relationship with many of the
> American officials who served under then president Bill Clinton, several of
> whom are returning to office under Obama. Dennis Ross, Clinton's Middle
> East envoy and likely to be a top regional representative, described
> Netanyahu as "overcome by hubris" after his first election to the
> premiership and recalled him being "nearly insufferable, lecturing and
> telling us how to deal with the Arabs" in his book on the Oslo peace
> process. Still, publicly US officials are welcoming the Israeli democratic
> process and indicating their readiness to work with whoever becomes prime
> minister. "This is a choice these Israeli people will have to make. Once
> that new government is formed, regardless of who is in that government, we
> will work with that government," said US State Department Acting Spokesman
> Robert Wood on Wednesday. "We look forward to working with that new
> government once it's formed. We have a robust agenda with the government of
> Israel, as you know. And so we're looking forward to getting down to
> business with the new government." When questioned about whether a
> government with right-wing leadership would hurt American peace efforts,
> Wood responded, "We certainly hope that a new government will continue to
> pursue a path to peace. I see no reason to think that a new government would
> do something otherwise." He added that he knew of no change to Middle East
> envoy George Mitchell's plans to make his second visit to Israel at the end
> of the month. "The administration is being very cautious," said an Israeli
> official about the silence from US officials right now. He noted that
> regardless of their views, they understood that they could have to work with
> both leaders and didn't want to prejudice either relationship. Oren said
> the US leadership had done better at keeping a lid on its feelings than many
> previous US and Israeli governments. "This administration is more
> constrained and more controlled in saying whom they prefer," he said. He
> added that if the US expressed its preference for Livni too loudly, it could
> backfire and hurt her position. He compared the situation to the boost in
> the polls Israel Beiteinu leader Avigdor Lieberman received from the
> police's pursuit of corruption charges, since some of his supporters felt he
> was being unfairly targeted. "It could boomerang, just like Lieberman
> picked up [support] from the police investigation," he said.
>
>
> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula,
> no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an
> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
> --JFK--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090212/4dcd1f15/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 12 22:14:00 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 04:14:00 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
In-Reply-To: <49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>
References: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>
	<49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <021320090414.27520.4994F3880002430200006B8022228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey all,

I've been doing some thinking about these photo's and the others related to them and I'd like to submit a perspective.

What struck me the most is that these gentle creatures, who for the most part tend to keep to themselves (as I understand them), know who to come to in times of trouble.

They live in their own little world and from what I have read that world has been severely compromised, yet they come to humans instinctively (so it seems) for help.

I wonder what that says about creation and HaShem's original plan for for it?

Do these creatures instinctively know that we are the Creators representatives here?

If so, what does that say about our responsibilty here?

Most importantly, what does this illustrate about who we should go to in times of trouble?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>: -------------- 

Hi Betty,
My sister sent me these photos of a heat affected koala in the Adelaide Hills during the recent extreme temps.
What a wonderful example of a wild animal putting its total trust in a human being. There were at least two other cyclists standing by as this little one approached. What trust!!
Thanks for sharing your story.
Jessica




Betty Givin wrote: 
A friend of mine sent this heartwarming photo and wrote, 
 
?I just love this because even in the WORST of circumstances, a random act of kindness can touch people a world away.?
 
 So true!  This reminded me of Jessica?s story of her little male koala that she rescued.  Animals are so sensitive to one another?we could learn much from then.
 
Elisheva/Betty
 
 
 
Firefighter David Tree shares his water with an injured Australian koala in a scorched forest near Mirboo North.
Koala recovering, has suitor
The koala, which turned out to be a female, was in pain but recovering with antibiotics, Jenny Shaw of the Mountain Ash Wildlife Shelter told Melbourne's The Herald Sun newspaper.
"She is lovely ? very docile ? and she has already got an admirer. A male koala keeps putting his arms around her," Shaw was quoted as saying. "It will be a long road to recovery, but she should be able to be released back into the wild in about five months."
 







_______________________________________________
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/56d4e527/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56613 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/56d4e527/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 41075 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/56d4e527/attachment-0001.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 276 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/56d4e527/attachment-0002.jpe 

From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Thu Feb 12 23:05:47 2009
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:35:47 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
In-Reply-To: <021320090414.27520.4994F3880002430200006B8022228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>	<49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com>
	<021320090414.27520.4994F3880002430200006B8022228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <4994FFAB.6050905@y7mail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/8661fbeb/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56613 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/8661fbeb/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 41075 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/8661fbeb/attachment-0001.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 275 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/8661fbeb/attachment-0002.jpe 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Fri Feb 13 03:32:44 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:32:44 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Ari Goldwag: Anavim
Message-ID: <49953E3C.9000502@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/154ba888/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 07:34:43 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 05:34:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Quote of the day
Message-ID: <855590370902130534odb249aana3d2e82fad2095ae@mail.gmail.com>

  Quote of the day:

"The Jew does not wish to be isolated. He fears being alone, without
allies."

-Rabbi Meir Kahane
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/3c4b2fd1/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 07:44:06 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 05:44:06 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Ein li eretz acheret - I have no other country
Message-ID: <855590370902130544v47c010f2xfc54980f234b03e@mail.gmail.com>

Some music to listen to before Shabbat....
                    Click here: YouTube - Ein li eretz acheret - by Israeli
singer Gali Atari<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roD7i5xYCx0&feature=related>
"I have no other country" with English subtitles.  I'm certain it speaks for
many, many of us.  It's really appropriate for me to listen to this while
reading the results of Israel's (bizarre) election results.

              Shabbat Shalom,
                         *   Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/d2af4095/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Feb 13 07:49:15 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:49:15 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Ari Goldwag: Anavim
In-Reply-To: <49953E3C.9000502@westnet.com.au>
References: <49953E3C.9000502@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <9D78DBE4923D4D75A33C061A2ED8F515@bettylaptop>

Love you too, Joe!!!  Thank you for this sweet music!

 

Shabbat Shalom to you and all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Ari Goldwag: Anavim

 

Love you all !!!!!

Shabbat Shalom
JOE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N1iOwJdjyE
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N1iOwJdjyE&eurl=http://www.lazerbrody.typep
ad.com/> &eurl=http://www.lazerbrody.typepad.com/ 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/74794dbe/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 08:07:01 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:07:01 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...
Message-ID: <855590370902130607n3a06f0bameaf84e5a57d948ce@mail.gmail.com>

     SPARKS
by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight  [image:
http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8xELNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcKnLfr_t9BN5A==]<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8xELNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcKnLfr_t9BN5A==>


*Ready to HotSync Your Soul?
Secrets to a Super-Natural Life of Freedom and Synchronicity *

[image:
http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkNMrDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0kRaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss]<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkNMrDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0kRaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss>


Years ago, I saw these sandals I really liked. At the time, I knew nothing
about these shoes other than I just liked the way they looked. So I went
into a store and I tried on a pair, but they didn't feel right. They had all
these funny bumps inside of them.

I told the salesman, "There is something wrong with these shoes."

He said, "No there is something wrong with your feet. You must understand
that these shoes are designed to support the shape of a natural foot."

"What's unnatural about my feet. They're in their natural place - at the end
of my legs."

He laughed. "You don't understand. Your feet have taken the unnatural shape
of the shoes you've been wearing. And the shoes you've been wearing are good
for killing cockroaches in tight corners, but they are not meant to contain
feet."

I felt insulted so I took my feet and walked out. But he had planted an idea
in my mind and suddenly I was acutely aware of the cockroach killing
potential of the shoes I was wearing. So I went back.

He did not gloat. He was compassionate. And he sold me a nice pair of these
shoes. But he warned me: "Go slow with these shoes. Wear them only an hour
or two a day at first. Until your feet get used to them. But I guarantee,
once your feet return to their natural state, these shoes will be the best
shoes you ever bought. You're gonna feel the difference."

I said "Right, right."

And I put on the shoes and I decided to walk home. An hour goes by, two
hours, three and all of sudden, I feel like my feet are being ripped apart
with pain shooting up my spine. And I can't believe it! I've been ripped
off. It's these lousy expensive shoes with the dumb bumps."

So I go back and complain. And the salesman says to me "I bet you wore these
more than two hours."

"So?"

"So, I'm telling you. Be patient and you'll see - these shoes are going to
fit like a dream."

He was right. I have worn nothing else since then. And I found out that the
most natural of things can initially feel very unnatural, but eventually you
really know the difference.

*LIVING IN SYNC *

Many of my students are astonished to learn that the commandments - *
mitzvahs*- guide us towards a natural life and empower us to become our most
natural selves. That the commandment-driven life is all about being in sync
with the cosmic principles; attuning us to the will of G-d that governs all
life.

What really are the *mitzvahs*?

*mitzvahs*, plural - *mitzvah*, singular - is often translated as
commandment, but that doesn't do it justice. *Mitzvah*really comes from the
Hebrew word that means "to connect" or "to unite."

Many people mistakenly think of commandments as demands. They are not.

A demand sounds threatening and self denying, while a command is an
invitation to commune, to join, which is joyous and empowering.

A *mitzvah*is about connecting with G-d. It's through the *mitzvahs* that we
transcend our ego, and synchronize our individual lives to the universal
life, bonding our selves with G-d, the all- embracing Universal Self of all
selves, the Soul of souls. G-d is the Great Self - the Ultimate "I" - the
source of all will, intelligence and love. The Torah tells us that before
the Israelites even knew what the *mitzvahs* were they accepted them
unequivocally and unconditionally, telling G-d "we will do and we will
hear." The Talmud says that G-d responded in admiration, "Who revealed this
secret to My children, the secret that the ministering angels use for
themselves, "Bless G-d, you angels of His, you mighty ones who perform His
bidding, hearkening to the voice of His word." (Psalms 103:20)

In contrast, the Talmud, also tells us that a heretic criticized the
Israelites for being so impetuous putting their mouth before their ears. It
makes more sense to first hear what the commandments would be and then
decide whether to accept them or not. What did the Israelites understand
that this heretic obviously was missing?

This heretic understands G-d as a being separate from man, floating in
heaven over there, and that the *mitzvahs* are His demands. He therefore
sees the acceptance of *mitzvahs* as a sign of weakness and an act of self
sacrifice. You are surrendering your will and your self interests to the
will and self interest of this other being--G-d. But the Israelites knew
better. They knew that G-d is the root, context, ground and essence of our
soul. They understand that there couldn't be any conflict of self interests,
because the soul is a spark of the Great Universal Self. If G-d were the sun
each one of us would be a ray of His light. To do the *mitzvahs* is actually
an act of Great Self expression. It's an act of strength. In sync with G-d,
I am even more natural and empowered to express the real me. This is the
secret the angels know-- performing the will of G-d is a joyous opportunity
for self expression. Through the *mitzvahs* we attune ourselves to the
Ultimate Self; radiate His light and channel His presence.

That's what it's about.

Yet, I know so many people who think of *mitzvahs* as nothing more than good
deeds. Like brownie points, you rack them up, you save them, you cash them
in the next world.

This reminds me of when I was dating a woman and to get a sense of who she
was, I asked her what she envisioned in her future home, once she was
married and had a family. She said: "What comes to mind, as a symbol of our
home? I see a *mitzvah*chart on the refrigerator door, and whenever the
children do a good deed, they get a star on that chart. And when they
collect about 10 or 15 stars, they get a prize."

I said "That's nice. But what else do you envision in your home?"

But that was it. That was what she thought of as a wonderful day in her
home. She felt my disappointment, I guess, because she said, "Well, how
about you?"

So I said, "When I think of my home, I think of ... I don't know ... I think
of ... light. I want my home to be full of light."

And she said, "that could run a high electrical bill."

That's when we both realized that this was not a match.

Of course, it is nice to have a *mitzvah*chart for children. I would use it
too. It's a metaphor that's important for children to gauge their growth.
But there are adults who still have a childish sense that *mitzvahs* are
brownie points. It's as if they thought that G-d has a big cosmic
refrigerator and on His refrigerator He has your chart. That implies, of
course, that G-d must have a cosmic oven also. And right in that oven is
your transgression chart. So beware of G-d's kitchen.

*Mitzvahs* are surely more than collecting brownie points. They are actions
which bring health and healing to the world restoring us to our natural
godly essence; plugging us into to the source of life.

*SPIRITUAL HYGIENE *

The Talmud says that returning to the ways of commandments brings healing
and health to the world. In contrast, transgression is associated with
sickness.

Why? Because it causes stress and disease in the world.

We all know there is physical hygiene. You brush your teeth everyday. And if
you don't, you lose your teeth.

So why do some people think that there physical hygiene - things you must do
as part of your daily routine - but not spiritual hygiene? Why do people
think that the physical body has very real principles and rules that
maintain a healthy harmony between it and its environment, but that the
spirit doesn't?

The Hebrew word for healing refuah is rooted in the word refuee meaning
"loose" or "lax." What's hinted here is that sickness comes through tension,
strain and stress, and health comes through harmony, wholeness and
integration.

The Hebrew word for sickness is machala, and the mystics teach that one gets
well by turning machala into maholos which means a dance.

The *mitzvahs* gives our life a rhythmic dance- like flow.

The Talmud says that in the after life, those who kept the *mitzvahs* will
dance in a circle around G-d, and G-d will lead them in an eternal dance.

You can't know how to souldance without the dancing lessons that the *
mitzvahs* provide. *mitzvahs* are like the footprints that dance studios
paint on the floor in order to teach people to dance.

Imagine you walk into Life's Dance Studio and you see footprints on the
floor. You say, "Gee, who brought in all this mud? Look at all the
footprints on your floor."

But you are told, "No, no, we painted that intentionally."

You take a closer look and see that each footprint has 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 1, 2,
3, 4. It looks rigid and silly.

But the dance instructor says "Follow the steps, follow the steps."

When you start you might feel kind of unnatural and stiff, but the more you
do it - the more you coordinate your life to the universal life - the more
gracefully you move, and you catch on to the dance, to the harmony. Then you
realize that there is so much more between the steps.

It is written that when a person does one mitzvah, it already leads them
into the next mitzvah, because we don't view *mitzvahs* as separate brownie
points, but as the movement of life. A life of *mitzvahs* is the Dance of
Life.

*THE DANCE OF FREEDOM *

Now there are a lot of dances - there is disco dancing and square dancing.
There are tangos and waltzes and rhumbas. So just what kind of dance are we
talking about?

Free dance. Through *mitzvahs* we dance our way to freedom - the freedom to
be the real you and me. Interestingly enough, the first of the Ten
Commandments states: "I, G-d, am your G-d, who took you out of Egypt." You
probably know that the Israelites endured many years of cruel oppression
under the tyranny of the King if Egypt, before being freed from slavery by a
series of miracles. They crossed the Red Sea and received the commandments
at Mt. Sinai.

Now this stupendous event happened only 50 days after they left Egypt, so
there is no possible way they could have forgotten what just happened. How
then are we to understand this strange statement?

Imagine that six weeks ago you almost drowned and a stranger by the name of
Jack came out of nowhere and saved your life. You owe him everything. You
intend to name all your future children Jack, Jacqueline, Jacket, Jacquzzi
... And then the phone rings and the voice you will never ever forget, says
to you, "Hi Dave, this is Jack, you know, the Jack who saved your life ..."
Does he really need to say that? As far as you are concerned is there even
another Jack in the world?

So too, the very first of the *mitzvahs* seems just as bizarre, and yet it
is the root of all the commandments. To boot, it doesn't even seem to be a
commandment. Isn't it just a statement?

The answer is: We are commanded to know that G-d is "I" - the Great "I" -
the source of our freedom. And we are commanded to continue to liberate
ourselves from other oppressions by bonding with G-d as the Great "I." When
you live the *mitzvahs* you hot sync your will into the Will of all wills;
you hot sync your soul into the Soul of all souls.

Living the *mitzvahs* is the secret to a super- natural life filled with
joyous celebration of freedom and synchronicity.

*Rabbi David Aaron
Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting
G-d Inand Living
A Joyous Life*

For more of Rabbi Aaron's *Sparks*, click here.
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JLwTsn5GSZH57x4mJsGPnSM3hoYvG8mUTeRghsc7DClThq0dXiqNt4_79SKpLI69B74g8oF4GkLCUDP_8ZUv7llFvvbwjxV25Zw0SVVBIaLwyDH5kxBoBNM7vMpPD39BMtsOWgW2IFHSajhECWrx-B2>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/bead20f2/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 08:19:36 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:19:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Ari Goldwag: Anavim
In-Reply-To: <49953E3C.9000502@westnet.com.au>
References: <49953E3C.9000502@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1B7AFE12B9B73C3C5D2F4BAB80@phx.gbl>

FABULOUS, JOE!!!!!  

Shabbat Shalom all you Dear Ones in the Land Down Under.

Avigail/Pat


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 4:32 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Ari Goldwag: Anavim


Love you all !!!!!

Shabbat Shalom
JOE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N1iOwJdjyE&eurl=http://www.lazerbrody.typepad.com/ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/5aefa570/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 08:25:52 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:25:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ein li eretz acheret - I have no other country
In-Reply-To: <855590370902130544v47c010f2xfc54980f234b03e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902130544v47c010f2xfc54980f234b03e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS15FB5630ACBC9C6A3E1853BAB80@phx.gbl>

Yes!  BARUCH HASHEM, I have no other country!!!!  Thank you, Hanoch.

Shabbat Shalom,

Avigail


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:44 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Ein li eretz acheret - I have no other country


Some music to listen to before Shabbat....
                    Click here: YouTube - Ein li eretz acheret - by Israeli singer Gali Atari  "I have no other country" with English subtitles.  I'm certain it speaks for many, many of us.  It's really appropriate for me to listen to this while reading the results of Israel's (bizarre) election results.

              Shabbat Shalom,
                            Hanoch


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/23f83b77/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 08:56:32 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:56:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
Message-ID: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>

I have heard that the fires in Australia may be acts of terrorism.  Is there an proof that this is so?  

Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/0e508ea7/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb 13 09:02:18 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:02:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00fc01c98dec$127a1a00$376e4e00$@com>


Australian Wildfires Could Fuel 'Forest Jihad' Terrorists, Experts Say


Monday , February 09, 2009


By Joshua Rhett Miller


FC1

Firefighters and homeowners aren't the only ones keenly watching Australia's
massive wildfires, responsible for killing at least 173 people in the
southern part of the continent.

Terrorism experts suspect Muslim extremists are watching closely, too - and
taking note of the devastation.

While Australian authorities have revealed no evidence linking the wildfires
to extremists, terrorism experts say the large death toll, the huge swath of
destruction and the massive financial blow to the country are proving to
Islamic terrorists that arson can be a highly effective - and simple - tool
of holy war.

In November, an extremist Web site called on Muslims to launch a "forest
jihad" in Australia, Europe, Russia and the United States. The posting,
which quoted imprisoned Al Qaeda terrorist Mustafa Setmariam Nasar, said
setting forest fires was legal under "eye-for-an-eye" Islamic law.

"Scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests
when they do the same to our lands," the posting read.

Click here for <http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6520,00.html>
photos.

The author of the posting indicated that Nasar - also known as Abu Musab
Al-Suri - was urging terrorists to use sulfuric acid or gasoline to start
the fires.

"Forest fires track well with the latest discussion trends seen in the Al
Qaeda forums - easy to do, big impact, low security risk, high media
coverage," said Al Qaeda expert Jarret Brachman.

"We've seen these kinds of appeals for action, be it setting fire to forests
in Australia, to creating oil slicks on mountain roads in Europe, to
poisoning water supplies and driving buses off bridges in the United States.

"The fact is that the Al Qaeda ideology is starting to branch out to more of
an 'anyone, anywhere, anytime, anyhow' approach."

Brachman, author of "Global Jihadism: Theory and Practice," said "forest
jihad" fits well in the growing interest among terrorists to establish "Al
Qaeda armies of one."

"Could [militants] do this? Yes," said Steve Emerson, executive director of
The Investigative Project on Terrorism. "It wouldn't be difficult, in the
same way that terrorists could poison stored food supplies."

Perhaps more troubling, Emerson said, is that there is very little
authorities can do to prevent terrorists from setting deadly wildfires.

"It would be absolutely impossible to protect against," he said. "Airport
parameters are hard enough to protect. Imagine trying to protect something
100,000 times as big."

Neil Livingstone, chairman and CEO of Executive Action LLC, an international
consulting firm, said terrorists could claim responsibility for the
Australian inferno even if they had nothing to do with it.

"That may be something that they try to do," Livingstone told FOXNews.com.
"Terrorists may well try to pile on, if you will, and say this is their
moving hand and that they have unseen agents that are responsible for this.
But you can bet that would produce a hell of a backlash against the Muslim
population in Australia."

If extremists did have had a hand in the wildfires, Emerson said, it would
be "very disturbing."

"It would indicate a new area of jihadist attacks, that is, attacking
natural resources," he said. "And given the devastation of these fires, it
certainly could instill new terror ideas in other areas like the food supply
chain or in the environmental realm."

Nonetheless, he said, the majority of terrorists are likely seeking ways to
create the most destruction with the least amount of effort. A wildfire
doesn't yield "as much fruit" as an inner-city bombing, he said.

But Brachman said the "Al Qaeda armies of one" approach has several benefits
for terrorists, including more overall acts of violence and additional
opportunities to become involved in new geographical areas. It also means
less operational control for Al Qaeda's senior commanders, he said.

"We're definitely going to see more of calls for these kinds of operations
in the future," he said. "The question that American security professionals
and first responders will have to wrestle with is whether anyone will be
answering these calls."

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/e9454da3/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 346 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/e9454da3/attachment.gif 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 09:13:54 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:13:54 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902130713j7718baa1wb4e822af2a4198fa@mail.gmail.com>

I've heard the same things, and that the police are treating it as a 'crime
scene.'  I haven't seen it verified yet.  My money is on the muslims doing
it....to many 'spontaneous fires' caused by lightening.
                   *  Hanoch
*
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Patricia Robbins <
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  I have heard that the fires in Australia may be acts of terrorism.  Is
> there an proof that this is so?
>
> Pat
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/b983cbb8/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 09:15:54 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:15:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <00fc01c98dec$127a1a00$376e4e00$@com>
References: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
	<00fc01c98dec$127a1a00$376e4e00$@com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1609432637EB3CAECD10B0BAB80@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Patty.  It makes one even more heartsick to think these tragedies could be the result of purposeful intent.

May your home be blessed with Shabbat Shalom,

Pat


From: Patty 
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:02 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism


Australian Wildfires Could Fuel 'Forest Jihad' Terrorists, Experts Say
Monday , February 09, 2009

By Joshua Rhett Miller


Firefighters and homeowners aren't the only ones keenly watching Australia's massive wildfires, responsible for killing at least 173 people in the southern part of the continent.

Terrorism experts suspect Muslim extremists are watching closely, too - and taking note of the devastation.

While Australian authorities have revealed no evidence linking the wildfires to extremists, terrorism experts say the large death toll, the huge swath of destruction and the massive financial blow to the country are proving to Islamic terrorists that arson can be a highly effective - and simple - tool of holy war.

In November, an extremist Web site called on Muslims to launch a "forest jihad" in Australia, Europe, Russia and the United States. The posting, which quoted imprisoned Al Qaeda terrorist Mustafa Setmariam Nasar, said setting forest fires was legal under "eye-for-an-eye" Islamic law.

"Scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands," the posting read.

Click here for photos.

The author of the posting indicated that Nasar - also known as Abu Musab Al-Suri - was urging terrorists to use sulfuric acid or gasoline to start the fires.

"Forest fires track well with the latest discussion trends seen in the Al Qaeda forums - easy to do, big impact, low security risk, high media coverage," said Al Qaeda expert Jarret Brachman.

"We've seen these kinds of appeals for action, be it setting fire to forests in Australia, to creating oil slicks on mountain roads in Europe, to poisoning water supplies and driving buses off bridges in the United States.

"The fact is that the Al Qaeda ideology is starting to branch out to more of an 'anyone, anywhere, anytime, anyhow' approach."

Brachman, author of "Global Jihadism: Theory and Practice," said "forest jihad" fits well in the growing interest among terrorists to establish "Al Qaeda armies of one."

"Could [militants] do this? Yes," said Steve Emerson, executive director of The Investigative Project on Terrorism. "It wouldn't be difficult, in the same way that terrorists could poison stored food supplies."

Perhaps more troubling, Emerson said, is that there is very little authorities can do to prevent terrorists from setting deadly wildfires.

"It would be absolutely impossible to protect against," he said. "Airport parameters are hard enough to protect. Imagine trying to protect something 100,000 times as big."

Neil Livingstone, chairman and CEO of Executive Action LLC, an international consulting firm, said terrorists could claim responsibility for the Australian inferno even if they had nothing to do with it.

"That may be something that they try to do," Livingstone told FOXNews.com. "Terrorists may well try to pile on, if you will, and say this is their moving hand and that they have unseen agents that are responsible for this. But you can bet that would produce a hell of a backlash against the Muslim population in Australia."

If extremists did have had a hand in the wildfires, Emerson said, it would be "very disturbing."

"It would indicate a new area of jihadist attacks, that is, attacking natural resources," he said. "And given the devastation of these fires, it certainly could instill new terror ideas in other areas like the food supply chain or in the environmental realm."

Nonetheless, he said, the majority of terrorists are likely seeking ways to create the most destruction with the least amount of effort. A wildfire doesn't yield "as much fruit" as an inner-city bombing, he said.

But Brachman said the "Al Qaeda armies of one" approach has several benefits for terrorists, including more overall acts of violence and additional opportunities to become involved in new geographical areas. It also means less operational control for Al Qaeda's senior commanders, he said.

"We're definitely going to see more of calls for these kinds of operations in the future," he said. "The question that American security professionals and first responders will have to wrestle with is whether anyone will be answering these calls."

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/d2a7fe6a/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 346 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/d2a7fe6a/attachment.gif 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 09:18:10 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:18:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <855590370902130713j7718baa1wb4e822af2a4198fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902130713j7718baa1wb4e822af2a4198fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1365EE4E595D536E8E5284BAB80@phx.gbl>

I have the same inclination, Hanoch.


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:13 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism


I've heard the same things, and that the police are treating it as a 'crime scene.'  I haven't seen it verified yet.  My money is on the muslims doing it....to many 'spontaneous fires' caused by lightening.
                     Hanoch


On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  I have heard that the fires in Australia may be acts of terrorism.  Is there an proof that this is so?  

  Pat

  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/027695c8/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb 13 09:30:26 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:30:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS1609432637EB3CAECD10B0BAB80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS4CFDEC6F90F9BE7754D9FBAB80@phx.gbl>	<00fc01c98dec$127a1a00$376e4e00$@com>
	<COL119-DS1609432637EB3CAECD10B0BAB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <012001c98df0$00714320$0153c960$@com>

Thanks, Pat, Shabbat Shalom to you too!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism

 

Thank you, Patty.  It makes one even more heartsick to think these tragedies
could be the result of purposeful intent.

 

May your home be blessed with Shabbat Shalom,

 

Pat

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:02 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism

 


Australian Wildfires Could Fuel 'Forest Jihad' Terrorists, Experts Say


Monday , February 09, 2009


By Joshua Rhett Miller


FC1

Firefighters and homeowners aren't the only ones keenly watching Australia's
massive wildfires, responsible for killing at least 173 people in the
southern part of the continent.

Terrorism experts suspect Muslim extremists are watching closely, too - and
taking note of the devastation.

While Australian authorities have revealed no evidence linking the wildfires
to extremists, terrorism experts say the large death toll, the huge swath of
destruction and the massive financial blow to the country are proving to
Islamic terrorists that arson can be a highly effective - and simple - tool
of holy war.

In November, an extremist Web site called on Muslims to launch a "forest
jihad" in Australia, Europe, Russia and the United States. The posting,
which quoted imprisoned Al Qaeda terrorist Mustafa Setmariam Nasar, said
setting forest fires was legal under "eye-for-an-eye" Islamic law.

"Scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests
when they do the same to our lands," the posting read.

Click here for <http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6520,00.html>
photos.

The author of the posting indicated that Nasar - also known as Abu Musab
Al-Suri - was urging terrorists to use sulfuric acid or gasoline to start
the fires.

"Forest fires track well with the latest discussion trends seen in the Al
Qaeda forums - easy to do, big impact, low security risk, high media
coverage," said Al Qaeda expert Jarret Brachman.

"We've seen these kinds of appeals for action, be it setting fire to forests
in Australia, to creating oil slicks on mountain roads in Europe, to
poisoning water supplies and driving buses off bridges in the United States.

"The fact is that the Al Qaeda ideology is starting to branch out to more of
an 'anyone, anywhere, anytime, anyhow' approach."

Brachman, author of "Global Jihadism: Theory and Practice," said "forest
jihad" fits well in the growing interest among terrorists to establish "Al
Qaeda armies of one."

"Could [militants] do this? Yes," said Steve Emerson, executive director of
The Investigative Project on Terrorism. "It wouldn't be difficult, in the
same way that terrorists could poison stored food supplies."

Perhaps more troubling, Emerson said, is that there is very little
authorities can do to prevent terrorists from setting deadly wildfires.

"It would be absolutely impossible to protect against," he said. "Airport
parameters are hard enough to protect. Imagine trying to protect something
100,000 times as big."

Neil Livingstone, chairman and CEO of Executive Action LLC, an international
consulting firm, said terrorists could claim responsibility for the
Australian inferno even if they had nothing to do with it.

"That may be something that they try to do," Livingstone told FOXNews.com.
"Terrorists may well try to pile on, if you will, and say this is their
moving hand and that they have unseen agents that are responsible for this.
But you can bet that would produce a hell of a backlash against the Muslim
population in Australia."

If extremists did have had a hand in the wildfires, Emerson said, it would
be "very disturbing."

"It would indicate a new area of jihadist attacks, that is, attacking
natural resources," he said. "And given the devastation of these fires, it
certainly could instill new terror ideas in other areas like the food supply
chain or in the environmental realm."

Nonetheless, he said, the majority of terrorists are likely seeking ways to
create the most destruction with the least amount of effort. A wildfire
doesn't yield "as much fruit" as an inner-city bombing, he said.

But Brachman said the "Al Qaeda armies of one" approach has several benefits
for terrorists, including more overall acts of violence and additional
opportunities to become involved in new geographical areas. It also means
less operational control for Al Qaeda's senior commanders, he said.

"We're definitely going to see more of calls for these kinds of operations
in the future," he said. "The question that American security professionals
and first responders will have to wrestle with is whether anyone will be
answering these calls."

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/12d334f1/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 346 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/12d334f1/attachment.gif 

From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 10:19:06 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:19:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...
In-Reply-To: <855590370902130607n3a06f0bameaf84e5a57d948ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <211778.78032.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

This Rabbi has a good way of putting into words what I feel in my heart. I can't believe that I ever saw?it any other way but I did.
Susie

--- On Fri, 2/13/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 6:07 AM















SPARKS
by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight



 


Ready to HotSync Your Soul? 
Secrets to a Super-Natural Life of Freedom and Synchronicity 




Years ago, I saw these sandals I really liked. At the time, I knew nothing about these shoes other than I just liked the way they looked. So I went into a store and I tried on a pair, but they didn't feel right. They had all these funny bumps inside of them. 
I told the salesman, "There is something wrong with these shoes." 
He said, "No there is something wrong with your feet. You must understand that these shoes are designed to support the shape of a natural foot." 
"What's unnatural about my feet. They're in their natural place - at the end of my legs." 
He laughed. "You don't understand. Your feet have taken the unnatural shape of the shoes you've been wearing. And the shoes you've been wearing are good for killing cockroaches in tight corners, but they are not meant to contain feet." 
I felt insulted so I took my feet and walked out. But he had planted an idea in my mind and suddenly I was acutely aware of the cockroach killing potential of the shoes I was wearing. So I went back. 
He did not gloat. He was compassionate. And he sold me a nice pair of these shoes. But he warned me: "Go slow with these shoes. Wear them only an hour or two a day at first. Until your feet get used to them. But I guarantee, once your feet return to their natural state, these shoes will be the best shoes you ever bought. You're gonna feel the difference." 
I said "Right, right." 
And I put on the shoes and I decided to walk home. An hour goes by, two hours, three and all of sudden, I feel like my feet are being ripped apart with pain shooting up my spine. And I can't believe it! I've been ripped off. It's these lousy expensive shoes with the dumb bumps." 
So I go back and complain. And the salesman says to me "I bet you wore these more than two hours." 
"So?" 
"So, I'm telling you. Be patient and you'll see - these shoes are going to fit like a dream." 
He was right. I have worn nothing else since then. And I found out that the most natural of things can initially feel very unnatural, but eventually you really know the difference. 
LIVING IN SYNC 
Many of my students are astonished to learn that the commandments - mitzvahs- guide us towards a natural life and empower us to become our most natural selves. That the commandment-driven life is all about being in sync with the cosmic principles; attuning us to the will of G-d that governs all life. 
What really are the mitzvahs? 
mitzvahs, plural - mitzvah, singular - is often translated as commandment, but that doesn't do it justice. Mitzvahreally comes from the Hebrew word that means "to connect" or "to unite." 
Many people mistakenly think of commandments as demands. They are not. 
A demand sounds threatening and self denying, while a command is an invitation to commune, to join, which is joyous and empowering. 
A mitzvahis about connecting with G-d. It's through the mitzvahs that we transcend our ego, and synchronize our individual lives to the universal life, bonding our selves with G-d, the all- embracing Universal Self of all selves, the Soul of souls. G-d is the Great Self - the Ultimate "I" - the source of all will, intelligence and love. The Torah tells us that before the Israelites even knew what the mitzvahs were they accepted them unequivocally and unconditionally, telling G-d "we will do and we will hear." The Talmud says that G-d responded in admiration, "Who revealed this secret to My children, the secret that the ministering angels use for themselves, "Bless G-d, you angels of His, you mighty ones who perform His bidding, hearkening to the voice of His word." (Psalms 103:20) 
In contrast, the Talmud, also tells us that a heretic criticized the Israelites for being so impetuous putting their mouth before their ears. It makes more sense to first hear what the commandments would be and then decide whether to accept them or not. What did the Israelites understand that this heretic obviously was missing? 
This heretic understands G-d as a being separate from man, floating in heaven over there, and that the mitzvahs are His demands. He therefore sees the acceptance of mitzvahs as a sign of weakness and an act of self sacrifice. You are surrendering your will and your self interests to the will and self interest of this other being--G-d. But the Israelites knew better. They knew that G-d is the root, context, ground and essence of our soul. They understand that there couldn't be any conflict of self interests, because the soul is a spark of the Great Universal Self. If G-d were the sun each one of us would be a ray of His light. To do the mitzvahs is actually an act of Great Self expression. It's an act of strength. In sync with G-d, I am even more natural and empowered to express the real me. This is the secret the angels know-- performing the will of G-d is a joyous opportunity for self expression. Through the mitzvahs we attune ourselves to the Ultimate
 Self; radiate His light and channel His presence. 
That's what it's about. 
Yet, I know so many people who think of mitzvahs as nothing more than good deeds. Like brownie points, you rack them up, you save them, you cash them in the next world. 
This reminds me of when I was dating a woman and to get a sense of who she was, I asked her what she envisioned in her future home, once she was married and had a family. She said: "What comes to mind, as a symbol of our home? I see a mitzvahchart on the refrigerator door, and whenever the children do a good deed, they get a star on that chart. And when they collect about 10 or 15 stars, they get a prize." 
I said "That's nice. But what else do you envision in your home?" 
But that was it. That was what she thought of as a wonderful day in her home. She felt my disappointment, I guess, because she said, "Well, how about you?" 
So I said, "When I think of my home, I think of ... I don't know ... I think of ... light. I want my home to be full of light." 
And she said, "that could run a high electrical bill." 
That's when we both realized that this was not a match. 
Of course, it is nice to have a mitzvahchart for children. I would use it too. It's a metaphor that's important for children to gauge their growth. But there are adults who still have a childish sense that mitzvahs are brownie points. It's as if they thought that G-d has a big cosmic refrigerator and on His refrigerator He has your chart. That implies, of course, that G-d must have a cosmic oven also. And right in that oven is your transgression chart. So beware of G-d's kitchen. 
Mitzvahs are surely more than collecting brownie points. They are actions which bring health and healing to the world restoring us to our natural godly essence; plugging us into to the source of life. 
SPIRITUAL HYGIENE 
The Talmud says that returning to the ways of commandments brings healing and health to the world. In contrast, transgression is associated with sickness. 
Why? Because it causes stress and disease in the world. 
We all know there is physical hygiene. You brush your teeth everyday. And if you don't, you lose your teeth. 
So why do some people think that there physical hygiene - things you must do as part of your daily routine - but not spiritual hygiene? Why do people think that the physical body has very real principles and rules that maintain a healthy harmony between it and its environment, but that the spirit doesn't? 
The Hebrew word for healing refuah is rooted in the word refuee meaning "loose" or "lax." What's hinted here is that sickness comes through tension, strain and stress, and health comes through harmony, wholeness and integration. 
The Hebrew word for sickness is machala, and the mystics teach that one gets well by turning machala into maholos which means a dance. 
The mitzvahs gives our life a rhythmic dance- like flow. 
The Talmud says that in the after life, those who kept the mitzvahs will dance in a circle around G-d, and G-d will lead them in an eternal dance. 
You can't know how to souldance without the dancing lessons that the mitzvahs provide. mitzvahs are like the footprints that dance studios paint on the floor in order to teach people to dance. 
Imagine you walk into Life's Dance Studio and you see footprints on the floor. You say, "Gee, who brought in all this mud? Look at all the footprints on your floor." 
But you are told, "No, no, we painted that intentionally." 
You take a closer look and see that each footprint has 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 1, 2, 3, 4. It looks rigid and silly. 
But the dance instructor says "Follow the steps, follow the steps." 
When you start you might feel kind of unnatural and stiff, but the more you do it - the more you coordinate your life to the universal life - the more gracefully you move, and you catch on to the dance, to the harmony. Then you realize that there is so much more between the steps. 
It is written that when a person does one mitzvah, it already leads them into the next mitzvah, because we don't view mitzvahs as separate brownie points, but as the movement of life. A life of mitzvahs is the Dance of Life. 
THE DANCE OF FREEDOM 
Now there are a lot of dances - there is disco dancing and square dancing. There are tangos and waltzes and rhumbas. So just what kind of dance are we talking about? 
Free dance. Through mitzvahs we dance our way to freedom - the freedom to be the real you and me. Interestingly enough, the first of the Ten Commandments states: "I, G-d, am your G-d, who took you out of Egypt." You probably know that the Israelites endured many years of cruel oppression under the tyranny of the King if Egypt, before being freed from slavery by a series of miracles. They crossed the Red Sea and received the commandments at Mt. Sinai. 
Now this stupendous event happened only 50 days after they left Egypt, so there is no possible way they could have forgotten what just happened. How then are we to understand this strange statement? 
Imagine that six weeks ago you almost drowned and a stranger by the name of Jack came out of nowhere and saved your life. You owe him everything. You intend to name all your future children Jack, Jacqueline, Jacket, Jacquzzi ... And then the phone rings and the voice you will never ever forget, says to you, "Hi Dave, this is Jack, you know, the Jack who saved your life ..." Does he really need to say that? As far as you are concerned is there even another Jack in the world? 
So too, the very first of the mitzvahs seems just as bizarre, and yet it is the root of all the commandments. To boot, it doesn't even seem to be a commandment. Isn't it just a statement? 
The answer is: We are commanded to know that G-d is "I" - the Great "I" - the source of our freedom. And we are commanded to continue to liberate ourselves from other oppressions by bonding with G-d as the Great "I." When you live the mitzvahs you hot sync your will into the Will of all wills; you hot sync your soul into the Soul of all souls. 
Living the mitzvahs is the secret to a super- natural life filled with joyous celebration of freedom and synchronicity. 

Rabbi David Aaron
Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life 
For more of Rabbi Aaron's Sparks, click here. _______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/03b5a755/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 10:31:19 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:31:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News
In-Reply-To: <748673.19947.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <748673.19947.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS936320D10174D33A0CB26BAB80@phx.gbl>

VIVA ISRAEL WORLD NEWS!!!!!

Hey, Cody, I love what you said on that interview about our current quality of news media:  "....propaganda masquerading as news!"   IWN WILL discredit the lies being told in the media!  

You got a lot said in the small amount of time allotted to you.  Great job! 

CHAZAK!  CHAZAK!!!!!!!

Shabbat Shalom,

Avigail/Pat



From: cody oneill 
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 2:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News


      Shalom everyone!

      Below is a link to an interview with a radio station out of Carlsbad NM.  I hope everyone enjoys it!!

      http://wildvoice.com/kosherradio/Posts/Israel-World-News-Television-2009-02-12

      Cody

      "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
      --JFK-- 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/208dd9ca/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Feb 13 10:35:59 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:35:59 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Meeting Information Page set up on SWW
Message-ID: <c77.42222206.36c6fb6f@aol.com>

I just called and booked my room for the United Israel Meeting. I really  
hope that many of you can make this meeting. 
 
I entered an "event" on the Synagogue Without Walls site. You do not have  to 
be a member to view the event details. I revised it this morning with all the 
 latest information from James, to include address and Phone Numbers for  
reservations at the hotel. 
 
I would encourage all of you to go check it out and  RSVP (click the  button) 
so that everyone can begin to see those that will be attending. Again, I  do 
not think that you have to be a member to RSVP. Some of you have already done  
this. As more information becomes available I will post it there. You can 
also  add comments. 
 
_http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/united-israel-world-union_ 
(http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/united-israel-world-union) 
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you 
now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000002)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/c2fc9ca2/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Feb 13 10:41:24 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:41:24 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Meeting Information Page set up on SWW
Message-ID: <d1f.40c6ad3d.36c6fcb4@aol.com>

One correction...
 
It looks like you can view all the details, but cannot RSVP without joining  
the site. It is very easy to do that and you should all be members anyway:) So 
 join up!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you 
now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000002)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/a98c1be8/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Feb 13 11:05:25 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:05:25 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...
In-Reply-To: <211778.78032.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <855590370902130607n3a06f0bameaf84e5a57d948ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<211778.78032.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7533A30907C24EDD930AABB7C0512A04@bettylaptop>

Yes, Susie, I agree whole heartedly!  I love the way he explains the
mitzvoth.as connections to HaShem, and the footprints on the dance floor.not
to mention the "bumpy" shoes.great analogy!  I always enjoy Rabbi Aaron's
down to earth perspectives and rich spiritual lessons.  If you are
interested in reading more from him, the line to Isralight with a list of
many of his teachings are below: I like his terminology for his
teachings.Sparks.very fitting!  

 

BTW, if I have not yet welcomed you to our list, shame on me.  I really do
not remember, but a belated welcome if I failed to do it earlier.  I know
that I have seen your posts and have been thinking and praying for Kay and
her friends. 

 

http://www.isralight.org/html/Sparks.htm#moresparks

 

Thanks Hanoch, for this insightful article filled with little "sparks!"

 

Shabbat Shalom to all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...

 


This Rabbi has a good way of putting into words what I feel in my heart. I
can't believe that I ever saw it any other way but I did.

Susie

--- On Fri, 2/13/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Always very thought provoking...
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 6:07 AM

 



  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 

  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 

  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 

SPARKS
by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight


  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 


 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8x
ELNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcK
nLfr_t9BN5A==>
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8x
ELNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcK
nLfr_t9BN5A==>
http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8xE
LNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcKn
Lfr_t9BN5A==
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JI-1pagHT-iNIAQkE-Xv8x
ELNkQfHWQ9hivoctijcniGzpg9TZVK4QkONPaFfT99NoSibobK4PLSplwL1-eR7wL2B_ZFJHekcK
nLfr_t9BN5A==> 

 

Ready to HotSync Your Soul? 
Secrets to a Super-Natural Life of Freedom and Synchronicity 

 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkN
MrDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0
kRaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss>
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkN
MrDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0
kRaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss>
http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkNM
rDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0k
RaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JIvncCp9rGTJlVLoNkrdkN
MrDuLslKc1PCqTT9GyN2EGyYpH_Fkf7r4ukj3FNe80bcKKV46Zfp1T3hvG7Rz6eWf4GNT2WAdrf0
kRaP_fX9pnJx4Sju81V9v7tAClskLTSGWrb0Fd2iPwICN9m6XU0ss> 



Years ago, I saw these sandals I really liked. At the time, I knew nothing
about these shoes other than I just liked the way they looked. So I went
into a store and I tried on a pair, but they didn't feel right. They had all
these funny bumps inside of them. 

I told the salesman, "There is something wrong with these shoes." 

He said, "No there is something wrong with your feet. You must understand
that these shoes are designed to support the shape of a natural foot." 

"What's unnatural about my feet. They're in their natural place - at the end
of my legs." 

He laughed. "You don't understand. Your feet have taken the unnatural shape
of the shoes you've been wearing. And the shoes you've been wearing are good
for killing cockroaches in tight corners, but they are not meant to contain
feet." 

I felt insulted so I took my feet and walked out. But he had planted an idea
in my mind and suddenly I was acutely aware of the cockroach killing
potential of the shoes I was wearing. So I went back. 

He did not gloat. He was compassionate. And he sold me a nice pair of these
shoes. But he warned me: "Go slow with these shoes. Wear them only an hour
or two a day at first. Until your feet get used to them. But I guarantee,
once your feet return to their natural state, these shoes will be the best
shoes you ever bought. You're gonna feel the difference." 

I said "Right, right." 

And I put on the shoes and I decided to walk home. An hour goes by, two
hours, three and all of sudden, I feel like my feet are being ripped apart
with pain shooting up my spine. And I can't believe it! I've been ripped
off. It's these lousy expensive shoes with the dumb bumps." 

So I go back and complain. And the salesman says to me "I bet you wore these
more than two hours." 

"So?" 

"So, I'm telling you. Be patient and you'll see - these shoes are going to
fit like a dream." 

He was right. I have worn nothing else since then. And I found out that the
most natural of things can initially feel very unnatural, but eventually you
really know the difference. 

LIVING IN SYNC 

Many of my students are astonished to learn that the commandments -
mitzvahs- guide us towards a natural life and empower us to become our most
natural selves. That the commandment-driven life is all about being in sync
with the cosmic principles; attuning us to the will of G-d that governs all
life. 

What really are the mitzvahs? 

mitzvahs, plural - mitzvah, singular - is often translated as commandment,
but that doesn't do it justice. Mitzvahreally comes from the Hebrew word
that means "to connect" or "to unite." 

Many people mistakenly think of commandments as demands. They are not. 

A demand sounds threatening and self denying, while a command is an
invitation to commune, to join, which is joyous and empowering. 

A mitzvahis about connecting with G-d. It's through the mitzvahs that we
transcend our ego, and synchronize our individual lives to the universal
life, bonding our selves with G-d, the all- embracing Universal Self of all
selves, the Soul of souls. G-d is the Great Self - the Ultimate "I" - the
source of all will, intelligence and love. The Torah tells us that before
the Israelites even knew what the mitzvahs were they accepted them
unequivocally and unconditionally, telling G-d "we will do and we will
hear." The Talmud says that G-d responded in admiration, "Who revealed this
secret to My children, the secret that the ministering angels use for
themselves, "Bless G-d, you angels of His, you mighty ones who perform His
bidding, hearkening to the voice of His word." (Psalms 103:20) 

In contrast, the Talmud, also tells us that a heretic criticized the
Israelites for being so impetuous putting their mouth before their ears. It
makes more sense to first hear what the commandments would be and then
decide whether to accept them or not. What did the Israelites understand
that this heretic obviously was missing? 

This heretic understands G-d as a being separate from man, floating in
heaven over there, and that the mitzvahs are His demands. He therefore sees
the acceptance of mitzvahs as a sign of weakness and an act of self
sacrifice. You are surrendering your will and your self interests to the
will and self interest of this other being--G-d. But the Israelites knew
better. They knew that G-d is the root, context, ground and essence of our
soul. They understand that there couldn't be any conflict of self interests,
because the soul is a spark of the Great Universal Self. If G-d were the sun
each one of us would be a ray of His light. To do the mitzvahs is actually
an act of Great Self expression. It's an act of strength. In sync with G-d,
I am even more natural and empowered to express the real me. This is the
secret the angels know-- performing the will of G-d is a joyous opportunity
for self expression. Through the mitzvahs we attune ourselves to the
Ultimate Self; radiate His light and channel His presence. 

That's what it's about. 

Yet, I know so many people who think of mitzvahs as nothing more than good
deeds. Like brownie points, you rack them up, you save them, you cash them
in the next world. 

This reminds me of when I was dating a woman and to get a sense of who she
was, I asked her what she envisioned in her future home, once she was
married and had a family. She said: "What comes to mind, as a symbol of our
home? I see a mitzvahchart on the refrigerator door, and whenever the
children do a good deed, they get a star on that chart. And when they
collect about 10 or 15 stars, they get a prize." 

I said "That's nice. But what else do you envision in your home?" 

But that was it. That was what she thought of as a wonderful day in her
home. She felt my disappointment, I guess, because she said, "Well, how
about you?" 

So I said, "When I think of my home, I think of ... I don't know ... I think
of ... light. I want my home to be full of light." 

And she said, "that could run a high electrical bill." 

That's when we both realized that this was not a match. 

Of course, it is nice to have a mitzvahchart for children. I would use it
too. It's a metaphor that's important for children to gauge their growth.
But there are adults who still have a childish sense that mitzvahs are
brownie points. It's as if they thought that G-d has a big cosmic
refrigerator and on His refrigerator He has your chart. That implies, of
course, that G-d must have a cosmic oven also. And right in that oven is
your transgression chart. So beware of G-d's kitchen. 

Mitzvahs are surely more than collecting brownie points. They are actions
which bring health and healing to the world restoring us to our natural
godly essence; plugging us into to the source of life. 

SPIRITUAL HYGIENE 

The Talmud says that returning to the ways of commandments brings healing
and health to the world. In contrast, transgression is associated with
sickness. 

Why? Because it causes stress and disease in the world. 

We all know there is physical hygiene. You brush your teeth everyday. And if
you don't, you lose your teeth. 

So why do some people think that there physical hygiene - things you must do
as part of your daily routine - but not spiritual hygiene? Why do people
think that the physical body has very real principles and rules that
maintain a healthy harmony between it and its environment, but that the
spirit doesn't? 

The Hebrew word for healing refuah is rooted in the word refuee meaning
"loose" or "lax." What's hinted here is that sickness comes through tension,
strain and stress, and health comes through harmony, wholeness and
integration. 

The Hebrew word for sickness is machala, and the mystics teach that one gets
well by turning machala into maholos which means a dance. 

The mitzvahs gives our life a rhythmic dance- like flow. 

The Talmud says that in the after life, those who kept the mitzvahs will
dance in a circle around G-d, and G-d will lead them in an eternal dance. 

You can't know how to souldance without the dancing lessons that the
mitzvahs provide. mitzvahs are like the footprints that dance studios paint
on the floor in order to teach people to dance. 

Imagine you walk into Life's Dance Studio and you see footprints on the
floor. You say, "Gee, who brought in all this mud? Look at all the
footprints on your floor." 

But you are told, "No, no, we painted that intentionally." 

You take a closer look and see that each footprint has 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 1, 2,
3, 4. It looks rigid and silly. 

But the dance instructor says "Follow the steps, follow the steps." 

When you start you might feel kind of unnatural and stiff, but the more you
do it - the more you coordinate your life to the universal life - the more
gracefully you move, and you catch on to the dance, to the harmony. Then you
realize that there is so much more between the steps. 

It is written that when a person does one mitzvah, it already leads them
into the next mitzvah, because we don't view mitzvahs as separate brownie
points, but as the movement of life. A life of mitzvahs is the Dance of
Life. 

THE DANCE OF FREEDOM 

Now there are a lot of dances - there is disco dancing and square dancing.
There are tangos and waltzes and rhumbas. So just what kind of dance are we
talking about? 

Free dance. Through mitzvahs we dance our way to freedom - the freedom to be
the real you and me. Interestingly enough, the first of the Ten Commandments
states: "I, G-d, am your G-d, who took you out of Egypt." You probably know
that the Israelites endured many years of cruel oppression under the tyranny
of the King if Egypt, before being freed from slavery by a series of
miracles. They crossed the Red Sea and received the commandments at Mt.
Sinai. 

Now this stupendous event happened only 50 days after they left Egypt, so
there is no possible way they could have forgotten what just happened. How
then are we to understand this strange statement? 

Imagine that six weeks ago you almost drowned and a stranger by the name of
Jack came out of nowhere and saved your life. You owe him everything. You
intend to name all your future children Jack, Jacqueline, Jacket, Jacquzzi
... And then the phone rings and the voice you will never ever forget, says
to you, "Hi Dave, this is Jack, you know, the Jack who saved your life ..."
Does he really need to say that? As far as you are concerned is there even
another Jack in the world? 

So too, the very first of the mitzvahs seems just as bizarre, and yet it is
the root of all the commandments. To boot, it doesn't even seem to be a
commandment. Isn't it just a statement? 

The answer is: We are commanded to know that G-d is "I" - the Great "I" -
the source of our freedom. And we are commanded to continue to liberate
ourselves from other oppressions by bonding with G-d as the Great "I." When
you live the mitzvahs you hot sync your will into the Will of all wills; you
hot sync your soul into the Soul of all souls. 

Living the mitzvahs is the secret to a super- natural life filled with
joyous celebration of freedom and synchronicity. 

Rabbi David Aaron
Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In
and Living A Joyous Life 

For
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102456515458&e=001Fpogcakf1JLwTsn5GSZH57x4mJsGPnS
M3hoYvG8mUTeRghsc7DClThq0dXiqNt4_79SKpLI69B74g8oF4GkLCUDP_8ZUv7llFvvbwjxV25Z
w0SVVBIaLwyDH5kxBoBNM7vMpPD39BMtsOWgW2IFHSajhECWrx-B2>  more of Rabbi
Aaron's Sparks, click here. 

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/8745cc3a/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 12:23:57 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:23:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Update on Rudy
Message-ID: <COL119-DS14A201636AA69B6A2F85C6BAB80@phx.gbl>

HERE IS AN UPDATE FROM LINDA ABOUT HER PRECIOUS HUSBAND, RUDY'S, CONDITION:  



      Dear All,
          
       Just getting to a computer since last Friday.

          Thank you so-o-o-o much for your prayers, cards, notes and phone calls.  Rudy is definitely feeling better, but the cause for the elevated temp has not yet been determined.  Much has been ruled out, Baruch HaShem, such as encephalaitis, spinal meningitis, pericarditis, but the low grade temp is still there.  Thankfully, the spiking has ceased, he is up walking with a cane, and has mental clarity once again. We just continue to pray that the docs aren't "missing" something, but we know HaShem knows it all.

          We appreciate having you all in our lives and pray many blessings upon you all.

      Love,
      Linda 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/026988e8/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 13:31:26 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:31:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News
References: <748673.19947.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL119-DS936320D10174D33A0CB26BAB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3138.83944.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Cody,
This sounds like a great venture!! I hope that you will do a special feature on Ephraimites (and their music) soon. Maybe you could come to Charlotte, NC this year at our annual meeting and do some interviews???

Love & Prayers,
Tracy Phillp Osborne
www.OnHigh.org

?



________________________________
From: Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 11:31:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Israel World News


VIVA ISRAEL WORLD NEWS!!!!!
?
Hey, Cody, I love what you said on that interview about our current quality of?news media:? "....propaganda masquerading as news!"?? IWN WILL discredit the lies being told in the media!? 

You got a lot said in?the small amount of time allotted to you.? Great job!?
?
CHAZAK!? CHAZAK!!!!!!!
?
Shabbat Shalom,
?
Avigail/Pat
?


From: cody oneill 
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 2:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News

Shalom everyone!

Below is a link to an interview with a radio station out of Carlsbad NM.? I hope everyone enjoys it!!

http://wildvoice.com/kosherradio/Posts/Israel-World-News-Television-2009-02-12

Cody

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK-- 

________________________________
_______________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/fb6720ed/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb 13 15:53:08 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:53:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Wake Up Call! The Future of RFID is Dawning
In-Reply-To: <3138.83944.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <748673.19947.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<COL119-DS936320D10174D33A0CB26BAB80@phx.gbl>
	<3138.83944.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01cf01c98e25$76bd2050$643760f0$@com>

Radio Frequency Identification Devices (known as RFID's) are set to usher in
a new world of consumer convenience. But beware the 'silent stalker' that
accompanies this technology. You may need an electronic jammer to shield
your privacy.

 

See article:
http://www.sutherlandsurvey.com/Columns_Papers/Wake%20up%20call!%20The%20fut
ure%20of%20RFID%20is%20dawning.pdf

 

Patty

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/fd378399/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb 11 09:21:34 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:21:34 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Fw:
Message-ID: <021120091521.24012.4992ECFE000341FF00005DCC22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Read the cartoon attached to this email.  Very sobering.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- 
From: Rosemary Barone <rbaron2 at hallmark.com> 
To: RESQ5 at aol.com, carlson_john at bellsouth.net, JRCarlson57 at aol.com, Shemp118 at cox.net 
Subject: Fw: Fw: 
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:00:54 +0000 




----- Forwarded by Rosemary Barone/FIELD/HALLMARK on 02/11/2009 09:08 AM 
----- 

"Chris Forte" 
om> To 
"Vivian Perrino" 
02/11/2009 08:27 , "Valerie J 
AM Scherer" , 
"Tami Regan" 
, "Sybil 
Murphy" , 
"Stephanie L Sobczak" 
, "Sharon 
Gershman" , 
"Rosemary Barone" 
, "Rich 
Royka" , 
"Phil Cappello" 
, "Pete 
Andersen" , 
"Patty L Long" 
, "Nan M 
Barone" , 
"Mike & Betty Putaggio" 
, "Melissa 
Paquette" , 
"Martin & Mitz Bazzell" 
, "Marlene 
Jaime" , 
"Lorraine J Costable" 
, "Lisa 
Doyle" 
, 
"Linda E Motusesky" 
, "Lewis, 
Stan" , 
, "Kiyo 
Joo" , "Katherine 
Licopoli" , 
"Joe & Linda Gottfried" 
, "Jill D Heckman" 
, "Irene 
Obitz" , 
"Gayle Lob" , 
"Donna M Bowell" 
, "Diane C 
Reid" , 
"Ciminera, Michael" 
, 
, "Cathy 
Cosgrove" 
, 
"Catherine Grube" 
, 
, "Bill R Alexander" 
, "Bill 
Bregou" , "Ann 
Mohrmann" 
cc 

Subject 
Fw: 










Dear Friends, 

I hope this Email finds you well and enjoying the beauty of winter..Snow!!! 

With all of our attention focused on the Economy and what or what not to 
do, my dear friend Joe Gottfried aka Joey G has passed along a timely 
reminder of how we should not and cannot forget man's inhumanity to man. 
Unfortunately along with the members of the Greatest Generation who are 
passing away, the survivors of the Holocaust are no longer able to ensure 
future generations "Never Forget". So please take a minute to read the 
illustration below and pass along to your pisans. 

Thanks and take care, 
Chris 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: joe gottfried 
To: Barry Rush ; Chris Forte ; Janet M Scaccalossi ; JEFFREY MULLEN ; Leaf, 
Craig ; Ronald Link ; Wendy 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:00 AM 
Subject:, Fw: 

Hi Everyone, 

I hope all is well. 

Regards, 

Joe 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mort Mackof 
To: Mort Mackof 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:31 PM 



From: David Cooperberg [mailto:sdcooperb at gmail.com] 
Sent:: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:53 PM 
To: jfields at synergyrealtyny.com 
Subject: In Memoriam: 63 years later 











(Embedded image moved to file: pic00792.jpg)[] 








In MEMORIAM - 63 YEARS LATER 


Please read the little cartoon carefully, it's powerful. Then read the 
comments at the end. 


I'm doing my small part by forwarding this message. I hope you'll consider 
doing the same.. 


In Memoriam 


(Embedded image moved to file: pic22361.jpg)[] 


It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended 
This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the six million 
Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians and 1,900 Catholic priests 
who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated with 
the German and Russian Peoples looking the other way! 


Now, more than ever, with Iraq, Iran, and others, claiming the Holocaust to 
be 'a myth,' it's imperative to make sure the world never forgets, because 
there are others who would like to do it again. 






This message, including any attachments, is for the designated recipient 
only and/or Hallmark Cards, Inc. employees. It may contain privileged, 
proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in 
error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any 
other use of the e-mail, disclosure of the information, or distribution by 
you is 
prohibited. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/e9fd8788/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: pic00792.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 51342 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/e9fd8788/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: pic22361.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 148258 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090211/e9fd8788/attachment-0001.jpg 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Feb 13 07:06:49 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:06:49 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the bottle,
	almost like a baby'
In-Reply-To: <4994FFAB.6050905@y7mail.com>
References: <01E27E845D2F49D3A1A1AE87917A2BCC@bettylaptop>	<49924C31.7010306@y7mail.com><021320090414.27520.4994F3880002430200006B8022228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<4994FFAB.6050905@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <9D33FE99F03E49FBAEC88C6E8200637E@bettylaptop>

Thanks, Jessica and John for your thoughts?we can learn much from our gentle
animal creatures that have been placed in our world with us?and yes, I
believe all of creation was imprinted with the Spirit of the Creator.  It is
very sad that it takes a tragedy of this magnitude to bring animals and
humans together, yet very heartwarming to see photos such as these and hear
stories of these innocent little creatures and how they care for one another
as in the beautiful story of the swallows; and how they come to humans for
help when they are in trouble?and how humans respond?I think it says a lot
about HaShem?s original plan for our planet and all of its creatures, and
how we as humans, created in HaShem?s image, were designed to be its
caretakers.  

 

When we see clear reminders of what our role is to be, and actually see it
being carried out, it can serve to give us renewed hope in mankind, for we
can see baseless love amidst all the evil and baseless hatred  that often
bombards us. I think it gives us a glimpse of what the world should be and
how we can actually participate in tikkun olam, repairing of the world.  As
far as what it illustrates about who we should go to in times of
trouble?Psalms 37:39 states it very clearly?and all we have to do is to put
it into practice?


??  ??????????? ??????????, ????????;    ?????????, ?????? ????? 

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD; He is their stronghold
in the time of trouble.


Wishing you and all a Shabbat Shalom

 

 

                                     Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Vegemite Rose
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:06 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Firefighter: 'He kept reaching for the
bottle,almost like a baby'

 

Hey John,
I like your thinking, however I believe there is an inbuilt instinct to
survive in all creatures great and small. The koala is not the only animal
to be assisted by human intervention during this ordeal. There have been
other wild creatures such as kangaroos, wombats, birds etc also coming to
humans for aid - or at least allowing humans to help them.
I was sent an email today of a story that appeared in a french newspaper. It
is about a pair of swallows - you may already know about this one. The
female of the pair was hit by a vehicle and survived for only a short time.
During her suffering, her mate flew off and fetched food which he brought to
her. He stayed with her and tried to encourage her to fly. When she died, he
was seen to 'mourn' for her and cried to the heavens on her behalf. A deeply
moving story indeed, with photos. I believe it is an example of the Spirit
of the Creator being revealed to all who took the time to notice.  I'm
convinced there are many more examples all around us of the reality of
HaShem's Spirit in His creation, ie: the interaction of our pets with us and
many examples of the animal being the 'rescuer' and saving human lives. 
There is much we could learn simply by paying attention to ALL creation and
not just to our own existence. We are not independent of all that was
created - we are just one part of the whole. We were the species given
responsibility for caring for all the rest. What can I say - do you think
we've done a good job?????
I'm just amazed that the animals trust us enough to get so close.
And yes - we do instinctively turn to our Creator in times of trouble. 
I believe there are also those who declare themselves to be non-believers,
who also in the end turn instinctively to HaShem and call upon His Name.
He was wise enough to impart/imprint His Spirit in ALL of His creation.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: 

Hey all,

 

I've been doing some thinking about these photo's and the others related to
them and I'd like to submit a perspective.

 

What struck me the most is that these gentle creatures, who for the most
part tend to keep to themselves (as I understand them), know who to come to
in times of trouble.

 

They live in their own little world and from what I have read that world has
been severely compromised, yet they come to humans instinctively (so it
seems) for help.

 

I wonder what that says about creation and HaShem's original plan for for
it?

 

Do these creatures instinctively know that we are the Creators
representatives here?

 

If so, what does that say about our responsibilty here?

 

Most importantly, what does this illustrate about who we should go to in
times of trouble?

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Vegemite Rose
<mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com> <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>: -------------- 

Hi Betty,
My sister sent me these photos of a heat affected koala in the Adelaide
Hills during the recent extreme temps.
What a wonderful example of a wild animal putting its total trust in a human
being. There were at least two other cyclists standing by as this little one
approached. What trust!!
Thanks for sharing your story.
Jessica




Betty Givin wrote: 

A friend of mine sent this heartwarming photo and wrote, 

 

?I just love this because even in the WORST of circumstances, a random act
of kindness can touch people a world away.?

 

 So true!  This reminded me of Jessica?s story of her little male koala that
she rescued.  Animals are so sensitive to one another?we could learn much
from then.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

Firefighter David Tree shares his water with an injured Australian koala in
a scorched forest near Mirboo North.

Koala recovering, has suitor
The koala, which turned out to be a female, was in pain but recovering with
antibiotics, Jenny Shaw of the Mountain Ash Wildlife Shelter told
Melbourne's The Herald Sun newspaper.

"She is lovely ? very docile ? and she has already got an admirer. A male
koala keeps putting his arms around her," Shaw was quoted as saying. "It
will be a long road to recovery, but she should be able to be released back
into the wild in about five months."

 

 


  _____  


 








  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  

 





  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/539367d9/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 41075 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/539367d9/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56613 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090213/539367d9/attachment-0001.jpe 

From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Sat Feb 14 14:28:55 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:28:55 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] mercury
References: <4996F860.E692C.5BF3@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <A238E1C6CD784F869F21D476B033BA99@SEWVAC011>

This is the second reference I have found to this, so I am
posting it.  Reminds me more n more of why Daniel did
Not eat the king's food.  If you have children, you might
want to especially do your own due dilligence on this.

Have no idea if this place is also trying to sell something

Stephen
Daniel 1:8

 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the 
portion of the king's delicacies,
 nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of 
the eunuchs that he might not defile himself

******************************************
NOW University presents . . .
The 2009 Nutrition for Optimal Wellness Webinar Series

Free Webinar: The Truth about High Fructose Corn Syrup
When: Monday, February 16, 8pm CST, 9pm EST, 6pm PST and 7pm MT

https://www.now-university.com/Seminars/index.

This year NOW University welcomes internationally acclaimed author, educator 
and consultant, Marcia Zimmerman, M.Ed., CN to the Nutrition for Optimal 
Wellness webinar series. Marcia will begin the February 16th webinar series 
with a discussion on "The Truth about High Fructose Corn Syrup".

What you will learn in this seminar:

Roman mythology revered Mercury as a messenger and a god of trade, profit 
and commerce. He is depicted wearing a saucy little hat with wings to 
designate speed. How did the ancient Romans come up with the name Mercury? 
It is related to the word merx or merchandise. Science has borrowed his name 
for a planet and a metallic element. The name has given rise to mercurial, 
which refers to something or someone erratic, volatile or unstable. These 
terms refer to Mercury's swift flight from one location to another.

However, these psychological references to Mercury have a more insidious 
connection to the brain. Once considered innocuous, metallic mercury has 
fascinated kids for years. Many delighted in coating pennies with the shiny 
reflective liquid metal. Little did we know that mercury is a deadly 
NEUROTOXIN - one of the worst environmental toxins to which you can be 
exposed.

Now we find out that it has been found in foods containing high fructose 
corn syrup listed as a first or second ingredient on food labels! And it's 
not obscure companies whose products were found to contain mercury by an 
expert group of scientists. All told, 55 different products were tested and 
nearly half of them had detectible levels of mercury. They were selected 
because HFCS was a first or second ingredient listed on the label.

Author and nutritionist Marcia Zimmerman will explore this important 
finding, tell you how to find out if you have this toxic metal in your body, 
and what you can do about it.

Be sure to attend this ground breaking webinar on Monday February 16, 2009, 
8 PM central, 9 PM eastern, 7 PM mountain, and 6 PM Pacific time.

*******************************************************************************************************

 


From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 14 16:23:32 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 08:23:32 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Israel World News]
Message-ID: <49974464.30607@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/d7b4266c/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World News
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Size: 5587
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/d7b4266c/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 14 16:33:39 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 08:33:39 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Quote of the day]
Message-ID: <499746C3.8010305@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/588b5279/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Quote of the day
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 05:34:43 -0800
Size: 4774
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/588b5279/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 14 17:39:00 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:39:00 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Disasters in Australia.
Message-ID: <49975614.3070402@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/d41d8ae3/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 14 17:56:09 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:56:09 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism]
Message-ID: <49975A19.1070903@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/cde3aaa3/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 0,,6486974,00.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 49009 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/cde3aaa3/attachment.jpg 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Patricia Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Fires and terrorism
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:56:32 -0500
Size: 5152
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/cde3aaa3/attachment.eml 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 18:55:39 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:55:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel World Television
Message-ID: <333921.6659.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you all for your support.

It has been very encouraging for me to read all of the positive feedback.  

And hopefully I will be able to make it to NC this year.  

-Cody

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 21:32:30 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:32:30 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Winners & Losers
Message-ID: <855590370902141932o2f726fe8s546287cb9fa62b7a@mail.gmail.com>

Winners and Losers<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/02/winners-and-losers.html>
  by Rabbi Lazer Brody

Hashem is magnificently compassionate and infinitely merciful, but He wants
us to get our act together. His messages are loud and clear - the skies are
still iron-blue with no sign of rain, as the worst drought in our history
continues. Traditionally, after a Shmitta (Sabbatical) year, we get bumper
crops and double rainfall. This year, we have neither. This season's citrus
yield is sparse and the fruit quality is way below par. Our sages teach that
a lack of rain and sparse yields stem from a lack of emuna.

Friday night at about 8 PM, we heard an explosion to the east. After
Shabbat, we discovered that a Grad missile fell in a field about a half mile
east of Ashdod. The Red-alert siren was not activated. During Shabbat, more
missiles fell in Sderot and surroundings as well.

Gilead Shalit is not yet home and Gaza weapons smuggling is proceeding full
speed. Yet, the Israeli government claims they have won the war. Such is the
self-deception of a non-emuna outlook.

This won't be popular, but my friends on the right of Israel's political map
are also falling prey to the self-deception of a non-emuna outlook. True,
Israel's left was smashed during the elections, but that doesn't mean that
the right won, despite their euphoria. Here's how:

Ms. Livni, together with her scandal-ridden cronies that make up the Kadima
Party, succeeded in garnering more mandates that Bibi and the Likud (28 to
27).

Mr. Lieberman and his Israel Beteinu party have an anti-Jewish agenda that
would be readily digestible by the most extreme elements of Israel's left.
Our estimation is that Lieberman would rather sit with Livni than with Bibi.
Lieberman would easily give in to territorial concessions if he received
civil marriages, instant conversions, and additional erosions of the
religious status quo that his constituency wants. To make things stickier,
there are now signals from the Obama
administration<http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063995.html>calling
for a Likud - Kadima coalition. Remember, Bibi had already agreed to
surrender Hevron and huge chunks of Judea and Samaria back at the Wye
plantation <http://middleeast.about.com/od/documents/a/me081109a.htm>. He
has a poor record of standing up to Uncle Sam; for that, you need emuna. So,
from our estimation, it looks like Israel will get an anti-religious
Centrist government with a ruling majority of 70 mandates (from a total of
120), that includes Kadima, Likud, and Lieberman. Even if Labor joined such
a government instead of Lieberman, there would still be 68 mandates and even
more readiness to make concessions. Time will tell.

Aguda has no reason to rejoice about their 5 mandates; demographically, they
should have received 8. They lost one mandate to Shas, one mandate to
Katzal'e and the Ichud Leumi, and one mandate to the Likud. Such is the
result of infighting and narrow self-interests.

Bibi's war against Moshe Feiglin cost him at least 8 mandates, but showed us
all his true colors.

True, the Knesset has been blessed with an individual of such personal
integrity as Katzal'e. But, he and the religious right are not enough to
guarantee the future of Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel, territorial
integrity, or the very Jewish character of the state. Our votes didn't do
the trick. Our votes didn't rescind the drought or assure national security
either.

What our votes didn't succeed in doing, our prayers can. So why don't people
pray? Rebbe Nachman says that they don't pray because they lack emuna and
don't believe in the power of prayer.

If you want to effect a change in Israel, then join us in an hour a day of
personal prayer. Devote ten minutes to praying for our security, for the
residents of Judea and Samaria, for the release of Gilead Shalit, and for
rain.

The difference between winners and losers is prayer. When you pray, you
always win in the long run. Have a good week.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090214/ea40c2bc/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Feb 15 02:15:21 2009
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 03:15:21 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Classes to resume March 8th
Message-ID: <c1b.462a9317.36c92919@aol.com>

 
Last week I sent a note about classes for February. Some of my closest  
friends felt that I should teach as time allowed, while others felt it would be  
best to take some time to get back to a more normal schedule. After much prayer  
and thought, I have determined to resume teaching on March  8th. My current 
work schedule is just not predictable enough over  the next couple of weeks to 
guarantee ample time to prepare my lessons. By  taking off from teaching for 
the next few weeks, I will be able to prepare for  an entirely new teaching 
series based upon the Torah and  Prophets. I appreciate the many letters of 
understanding from many of  you. I will be sending out a reminder of the date as 
well as a description of  the new series. I have already begun to work on this 
new series and I am certain  that it will be engaging and thought provoking.

I have a strong  sense of a Divine Hand in this time off. I feel that it is 
time to move on.  

I did want to point out that February 17th marks one year of my  Sunday Shul 
series. We covered a good deal of material in the past 12  months. 

Here are some of the subjects that I covered last year (all  of which are 
available on _my  website_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts) .)

Son of God Series
Messiah and Messianic  Expectations
A Journey through the Gospel
A Deeper look at the  Parables
Classes on the Festivals
Restoring Abrahamic  Faith
and many more topics

Thanks for your continued  interest in Roots of Faith. I would also encourage 
you to visit my _Synagogue Without Walls_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) . 
This site now has over 120 members  from around the world that are seeking the 
good way among the ancient  paths. Members can set up their own page, much like 
Facebook  or MySpace pages. There is a chat feature and an active forum where 
 you can share your own experiences and studies with the group.

I truly  look forward to again sharing my passion for teaching the Bible with 
the  world in the coming weeks. 

Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. 
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/c601c971/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 15 07:53:30 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 08:53:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Classes to resume March 8th
In-Reply-To: <c1b.462a9317.36c92919@aol.com>
References: <c1b.462a9317.36c92919@aol.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS2519C49CDF0F9CA3A3868EBAB60@phx.gbl>

Looking forward to March 8th, Ross!  Am so glad you are holding back until the time is right for you.  BARUCH HASHEM THAT HE WATCHES OVER US AND LEADS US IN THE WAY WE SHOULD GO!!!!


Love,

Pat


From: RNDAVAR at aol.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; uilist at unitedisrael.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Classes to resume March 8th


Last week I sent a note about classes for February. Some of my closest friends felt that I should teach as time allowed, while others felt it would be best to take some time to get back to a more normal schedule. After much prayer and thought, I have determined to resume teaching on March 8th. My current work schedule is just not predictable enough over the next couple of weeks to guarantee ample time to prepare my lessons. By taking off from teaching for the next few weeks, I will be able to prepare for an entirely new teaching series based upon the Torah and Prophets. I appreciate the many letters of understanding from many of you. I will be sending out a reminder of the date as well as a description of the new series. I have already begun to work on this new series and I am certain that it will be engaging and thought provoking.

I have a strong sense of a Divine Hand in this time off. I feel that it is time to move on. 

I did want to point out that February 17th marks one year of my Sunday Shul series. We covered a good deal of material in the past 12 months. 

Here are some of the subjects that I covered last year (all of which are available on my website.)

Son of God Series
Messiah and Messianic Expectations
A Journey through the Gospel
A Deeper look at the Parables
Classes on the Festivals
Restoring Abrahamic Faith
and many more topics

Thanks for your continued interest in Roots of Faith. I would also encourage you to visit my Synagogue Without Walls. This site now has over 120 members from around the world that are seeking the good way among the ancient paths. Members can set up their own page, much like Facebook or MySpace pages. There is a chat feature and an active forum where you can share your own experiences and studies with the group.

I truly look forward to again sharing my passion for teaching the Bible with the world in the coming weeks. 

Shalom, Ross


Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/864807f0/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 08:15:59 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 06:15:59 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "One who craves has nothing..."
Message-ID: <855590370902150615g330b1f8eg7244d8712302c611@mail.gmail.com>

TorahLife 5
by HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All
rights reserved.     *"[One] craves and has nothing, [because] he is a lazy
soul, but the pioneering soul will reap [greatly]."* Proverbs 13:4

One who craves will never be fulfilled. This is the most common of common
sense, yet, so many are so unaware of this. What was once common has become
uncommon and what was once uncommon has become common. We truly live in an
upside down world.

Efforts bring accomplishment. Laziness creates a vacuum. Accomplishments
will fill one's heart and life with good things. Laziness will create a
vacuum that will suck out all the good things from one's heart and life.

Craving that which cannot be had is a waste of energy. The wise will make no
efforts into acquiring that which cannot be acquired. On the other hand, the
fool will waste his time and effort and still accomplish nothing.

Worse than this is the lazy one, who never makes any efforts at all and
pines away and cries over that which he never ever made any effort to
acquire. At least the fool knows that he could not succeed and he moves on.
The lazy one never moves on, never moves over and never accomplishes
anything. The lazy are a complete waste of being.

Laziness is the greatest of evils. There is laziness of the body, of the
heart and of the mind. One can be lazy on one area and not in the others.

Laziness of the body is when we do not eat properly and when we do not
strenuously exercise daily as is required.

Laziness of the heart is when we allow our emotions to control us and to run
rampant, turning our lives into a roller-coaster ride.

Laziness of the mind is when we do not think for ourselves, to properly
analyze things and instead rely upon the decisions and opinions of others.

Overcoming laziness of the body requires of one to watch what and how one
eats and to get off one's behind and exercise to maintain robust health.
These are required practices under Torah Law.

Overcoming laziness of the heart requires of one to not act instinctually
based upon how one feels, but rather to take pause, to think and decide how
best one can express how one feels in the most appropriate and beneficial
way. This is required by the Torah directives for proper behavior.

Overcoming laziness of the mind is the hardest. It requires of one not to
follow after the crowd, but to sometimes stand out apart from it. One must
not only learn to think for oneself, one must also have the courage to stand
up for what one believes. One must learn wisdom, how best it is to express
oneself, be it one's thoughts or one's feelings. This is required for one's
spiritual growth, to be a full human being created in the Divine Image.

There is no magic way to overcome laziness. Laziness is overcome one step at
a time. One must first take the smallest of steps. Then one must repeat this
again, then again and again. Once one makes the smallest of steps and keeps
on stepping forward, regardless of how small, one is still nonetheless in
motion. With motion comes speed and with speed, great distances can be
traversed. This movement is called learning.

All life is about learning. We learn from all things, in all times and in
all places. Even when we waste our time in the pursuit of wasteful things,
the pursuit might have value even when the object of the pursuit does not.
Lessons of commitment, discipline and the expenditure of effort are
themselves great rewards. The acquisition is not as important as is the
pursuit. When we act, we achieve. This is a great lesson.

Without action, there is never achievement. Without achievement, there is
never fulfillment. Without fulfillment, there is no true life. Why do some
choose to go through life while only half-alive? The answer is because they
are lazy. The lazy are as if they are dead. They are worthless to others and
to themselves.

Overcome laziness and one takes the necessary steps to self fulfillment.
Overcome laziness and one can take one's place as a being created in the
Divine Image. Yet, overcoming laziness must be complete and include all
three realms of the body, heart and mind. One cannot expect great bounty
when one is not disciplined in body, heart and mind.

Nothing in life is accomplished without effort. All accomplishments are
acquired by movement; movement requires effort; effort requires will.
Without will there is never any change. Without change something sleeps deep
inside us and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.

-------------------------------------------

Shalom, HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/320c8f88/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 15 08:27:11 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:27:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Winners & Losers
In-Reply-To: <855590370902141932o2f726fe8s546287cb9fa62b7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902141932o2f726fe8s546287cb9fa62b7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS19F93ADD0C35CB2B5F7B47BAB60@phx.gbl>

What a powerful message from Rabbi Brody!  I love so much that he understands and teaches the power of emuna in praying.  May HaShem increase our faith and lead us in the Way we should go, that our prayers may cause the end of these terrible spiritual and physical droughts!

Thank you so much for sending this, Hanoch.  R. Brody describes the political situation in the Land with such concise clarity.  I'm so disappointed in Netanyahu's lack of strength to follow HaShem...........his "non-emuna outlook."

PLEASE, HASHEM, POUR OUT YOUR RUACH AND EMUNA UPON US, AND ALL OF ISRAEL, THAT WE MIGHT FOLLOW YOU WITH ONE HEART, AND THUS CHANGE OUR WORLD.

Avigail/Pat     


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Winners & Losers


Winners and Losers  by Rabbi Lazer Brody
Hashem is magnificently compassionate and infinitely merciful, but He wants us to get our act together. His messages are loud and clear - the skies are still iron-blue with no sign of rain, as the worst drought in our history continues. Traditionally, after a Shmitta (Sabbatical) year, we get bumper crops and double rainfall. This year, we have neither. This season's citrus yield is sparse and the fruit quality is way below par. Our sages teach that a lack of rain and sparse yields stem from a lack of emuna.

Friday night at about 8 PM, we heard an explosion to the east. After Shabbat, we discovered that a Grad missile fell in a field about a half mile east of Ashdod. The Red-alert siren was not activated. During Shabbat, more missiles fell in Sderot and surroundings as well.

Gilead Shalit is not yet home and Gaza weapons smuggling is proceeding full speed. Yet, the Israeli government claims they have won the war. Such is the self-deception of a non-emuna outlook.

This won't be popular, but my friends on the right of Israel's political map are also falling prey to the self-deception of a non-emuna outlook. True, Israel's left was smashed during the elections, but that doesn't mean that the right won, despite their euphoria. Here's how:

Ms. Livni, together with her scandal-ridden cronies that make up the Kadima Party, succeeded in garnering more mandates that Bibi and the Likud (28 to 27).

Mr. Lieberman and his Israel Beteinu party have an anti-Jewish agenda that would be readily digestible by the most extreme elements of Israel's left. Our estimation is that Lieberman would rather sit with Livni than with Bibi. Lieberman would easily give in to territorial concessions if he received civil marriages, instant conversions, and additional erosions of the religious status quo that his constituency wants. To make things stickier, there are now signals from the Obama administration calling for a Likud - Kadima coalition. Remember, Bibi had already agreed to surrender Hevron and huge chunks of Judea and Samaria back at the Wye plantation. He has a poor record of standing up to Uncle Sam; for that, you need emuna. So, from our estimation, it looks like Israel will get an anti-religious Centrist government with a ruling majority of 70 mandates (from a total of 120), that includes Kadima, Likud, and Lieberman. Even if Labor joined such a government instead of Lieberman, there would still be 68 mandates and even more readiness to make concessions. Time will tell.

Aguda has no reason to rejoice about their 5 mandates; demographically, they should have received 8. They lost one mandate to Shas, one mandate to Katzal'e and the Ichud Leumi, and one mandate to the Likud. Such is the result of infighting and narrow self-interests.

Bibi's war against Moshe Feiglin cost him at least 8 mandates, but showed us all his true colors.

True, the Knesset has been blessed with an individual of such personal integrity as Katzal'e. But, he and the religious right are not enough to guarantee the future of Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel, territorial integrity, or the very Jewish character of the state. Our votes didn't do the trick. Our votes didn't rescind the drought or assure national security either.

What our votes didn't succeed in doing, our prayers can. So why don't people pray? Rebbe Nachman says that they don't pray because they lack emuna and don't believe in the power of prayer.

If you want to effect a change in Israel, then join us in an hour a day of personal prayer. Devote ten minutes to praying for our security, for the residents of Judea and Samaria, for the release of Gilead Shalit, and for rain.

The difference between winners and losers is prayer. When you pray, you always win in the long run. Have a good week.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/37523233/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 09:39:56 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
Message-ID: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>

Shavua tov/Buena semana,

    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for
a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
it...
                           *  Hanoch*
  [image: One] by Doni
Joszef<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+Joszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year>
 *Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.*

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad '*farbrengin*.' The Jewish World is
like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
Hitler did."

This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews.

Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
way by which we hope never to re-experience.

Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?

Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
disassociation? Is there another way?

*CALL ME NA?VE*

When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "*B'lev Echad* (with one
heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish
unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way,
of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his
time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't
exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach
denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful
stretch, to say the least.

But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
*shep nachas*, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past
our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
enemies?

I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the
more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity.

Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together.

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. *B'lev Echad* may
have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The *B'lev Echad* event is a novel
concept, inspired by the first *yartzeit* of those eight innocent souls who
were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young
lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was
not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would
be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it
not be enough for consoling love?

Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
victims.

Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah.

One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney.

Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the
globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one
to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/> to get
involved).

I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
Family.

* For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
participate in this worldwide event,
visit:www.BlevEchad.com<http://www.blevechad.com/>
*

 This article can also be read at:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/52cdd57b/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 10:25:58 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 08:25:58 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] What values are important?
Message-ID: <855590370902150825h5fd4de70s732ca2a1b1d5bded@mail.gmail.com>

  [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
 Daily
Israel Report
Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
  Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx>
Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live [image:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx>
TV <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
Jukebox<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
Pics <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
Services<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
Advertise<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>


Bar Refaeli - The Shabbat Queen %Date%
by by from "Generation Z" - Yishai and Malkah

(IsraelNN.com)
Reuters writes about Bar Refaeli:

*"She is the first Israeli model to dress down for the cover of the swimsuit
issue, which hit newsstands Tuesday and will reach a global audience of some
66 million readers. Web page views could hit 350 million, according to
Sports Illustrated. Now, that's exposure."*

The Boston Globe writes:

*"Southwest just unveiled ''S.I. One," a plane graced with the image of Bar
Refaeli, cover girl for this year's Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. The
Southwest Boeing 737 will ferry the model on a cross-country promotional
trip leaving from New York City."*

Oh, Bar Refaeli, I pray for you. You think you are a big success because
your body is now splayed on the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue
and on the side of a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737?

No. You are a Jewish girl who got mixed up in the culture of the
heathen-Greco-Roman-America of today. Look what they use you for: To sell
their soft-porn smut through reaching out to the lowest aspect of humanity
and to make airports a place where mothers have to cover children's eyes.
How many lascivious thoughts has your image evoked? How many jealous
thoughts? How much wasting of time? How much degradation of values?

Oh, Bar Refaeli, I pray for you. I pray that one day you will have a nice
Jewish home, and that your husband will look at you with love because of the
great children you raise. I pray that you will reject this path of
body-worship and that one day you will lecture to Israeli girls about family
purity, and about the power of modesty to bring about true and meaningful
attraction. I hope that from the depths that you have sunken, you will
awaken to help stem the tide of moral erosion that Israel and the world
suffers from. Indeed, I hope that one day you will merit to be someones
Shabbat Queen and not the empty shell that you are now.

But you are not the only one to blame for this ignominious degradation. All
those Orthodox Jews who take pride in having Kosher hotdogs and a Maariv
Minyan in Madison Square Garden right after a Knicks basketball game - they
too are to blame. Oh, they would claim that their worship of pro-sports has
nothing to do with your public exhibitionism. But it does - because both
come from the same root, that is, the Greek and Roman fascination with the
body. Is it a coincidence that Sports Illustrated caters to both the
pro-sports and the soft-porn crowd? Of course not, because both pro-sports
and soft-porn are flip-sides of the same coin.

It is time for the Jewish people to end their addiction with time wasting
animalism. It is time that we stop being the heads of foxes by helping the
world plummet in its moral decline. It is time for us Jews to be the tails
of lions, that is, to fulfill our role by being a "Light Unto The Nations"
nation! Naked bodies of Jewish women on the sides of airplanes?? Orthodox
Jews sitting around in a stadium munching on Kosher dogs while idly watching
others throw a ball??

This is not the stuff of a better world, nor the actions of G-dly people.
The time has come to get up, shake off the dross of 2000 years, and get to
the work of building a holy nation. We have better things to promote in this
world.

*Yishai*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/6d9987ae/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb 15 11:17:59 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:17:59 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <622B90D061364F86A2A2875C07577DA5@bettylaptop>

Hanoch, I think this is an outstanding idea and hope that many will take
this opportunity to join in.  I forwarded this on to our rabbi in hopes that
our congregation would participate in some way.  It says that individuals or
small groups can join in as well.  I am not sure how it would work, but the
thought crossed my mind that Roots of Faith might consider this.  It might
not work as a group, but the ones of us who are not affiliated with a
congregation or shul could sign up to participate and put Roots of Faith as
their affiliate group.  

 

It does say Jewish groups, and as you pointed out, not many Jews take the
Ephramites seriously, yet there were many in the Holocaust who died helping
their Jewish friends, and no body turned down their help.  Of course we
might need to run this by Ross
just an idea.  What do you think, Ross, all?

 

Shavua tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:40 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?

 

Shavua tov/Buena semana,

 

    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for
a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
it...

                             Hanoch


 One
<http://articles.aish.com/graphics/articles/OnePeople,OneHeart230x150.jpg> 

 
<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+J
oszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year> by Doni Joszef

 

Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is
like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
Hitler did."

This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. 

Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
way by which we hope never to re-experience. 

Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?

Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
disassociation? Is there another way?

CALL ME NA?VE

When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one
heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish
unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way,
of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his
time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't
exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach
denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful
stretch, to say the least.

But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our
fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
enemies? 

I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the
more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. 

Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. 

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have
lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel
concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who
were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young
lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was
not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would
be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it
not be enough for consoling love?

Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
victims. 

Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. 

One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 

Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the
globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one
to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/>  to get
involved).

I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
Family. 

For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com
<http://www.blevechad.com/> 

This article can also be read at:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/48551098/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 11:28:51 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:28:51 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <622B90D061364F86A2A2875C07577DA5@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<622B90D061364F86A2A2875C07577DA5@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <855590370902150928l52191241p16339f5932d1b020@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Betty -

     Thanks for your thoughts and ideas, I think they're all good
approaches.  I just wanted to clarify something: I NEVER said that Jewish
groups don't take Ephramites seriously.  I stated that 'Ephramite unity' was
a JOKE; there are as many factions within the Ephramite community as exist
between the Jewish people (which probably is also a proof we're related!).

              Hanoch


On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>  Hanoch, I think this is an outstanding idea and hope that many will take
> this opportunity to join in.  I forwarded this on to our rabbi in hopes that
> our congregation would participate in some way.  It says that individuals or
> small groups can join in as well.  I am not sure how it would work, but the
> thought crossed my mind that Roots of Faith might consider this.  It might
> not work as a group, but the ones of us who are not affiliated with a
> congregation or shul could sign up to participate and put Roots of Faith as
> their affiliate group.
>
>
>
> It does say Jewish groups, and as you pointed out, not many Jews take the
> Ephramites seriously, yet there were many in the Holocaust who died helping
> their Jewish friends, and no body turned down their help.  Of course we
> might need to run this by Ross?just an idea.  What do you think, Ross, all?
>
>
>
> Shavua tov,
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:40 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
>
>
>
> Shavua tov/Buena semana,
>
>
>
>     The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know
> for a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
> cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
> truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
> it...
>
>                            *  Hanoch*
>
> [image: One]
>
> by Doni Joszef<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+Joszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year>
>
>
>
> *Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
> murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.*
>
> "We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
> ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
> Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad '*farbrengin*.' The Jewish World is
> like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
> somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
> and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
> together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
> smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
> my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
> Hitler did."
>
> This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
> scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
> Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
> dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
> brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
> divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews.
>
> Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
> another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
> the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
> forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
> intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
> way by which we hope never to re-experience.
>
> Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
>
> Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
> disassociation? Is there another way?
>
> *CALL ME NA?VE*
>
> When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "*B'lev Echad* (with
> one heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of
> Jewish unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging
> way, of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was
> wasting his time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting
> harmoniously" isn't exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt
> to breach denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a
> fanciful stretch, to say the least.
>
> But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
> unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
> *shep nachas*, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past
> our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
> enemies?
>
> I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all
> the more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
> some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
> insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
> finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity.
>
> Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
> and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
> all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
> you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
> gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
> but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together.
>
> Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. *B'lev Echad* may
> have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The *B'lev Echad* event is a
> novel concept, inspired by the first *yartzeit* of those eight innocent
> souls who were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.
> Eight young lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their
> slaughterer was not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish'
> his victims would be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of
> hatred. should it not be enough for consoling love?
>
> Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
> Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
> victims.
>
> Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
> what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah.
>
> One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
> across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
> unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
> participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
> Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
> Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney.
>
> Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around
> the globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for
> one to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/> to get
> involved).
>
> I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
> for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
> Family.
>
> *For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
> participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com<http://www.blevechad.com/>
> *
>
> This article can also be read at:
> http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/25a5c44b/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 15 12:18:02 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:18:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy's fever spiking again
Message-ID: <COL119-DS226D6B587FE9C381BA291FBAB60@phx.gbl>

Have just spoken to Linda, and Rudy's fever is spiking again.  It goes up to 103 degrees!  Doctors cannot find what the problem is.  PLEASE PRAY for him!  He is also in a lot of pain, having very severe leg cramps.  They are having to use a lift to get him out of bed so that he can move around everyday.  

Linda needs to spend every minute with him to watch over and interpret what the doctors are doing and saying.  She is a nurse herself.  The bad thing is that she is missing so much work that she is now very much concerned that she could lose her job.  SO PLEASE PRAY FOR HER STAMINA IN DEALING WITH SO MUCH, AND HER JOB SITUATION AS WELL.

Linda's computer has been down so she is not able to keep everyone informed, but she is so very thankful for all of you and the awesome power of your prayers for Rudy and her.  HASHEM LISTENS TO THE PRAYERS OF HIS PEOPLE.  

Thank you all so much,

Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/63d90d76/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 15 12:45:17 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:45:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy's temperature is spiking!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS2DD0C5077D54ACE4E6075BAB60@phx.gbl>

Have just spoken to Linda, and Rudy's fever is spiking again.  It goes up to 103 degrees!  Doctors cannot find what the problem is.  Am asking all who feel led, PLEASE PRAY for him!  He is also in a lot of pain, having very severe leg cramps.  They are having to use a lift to get him out of bed so that he can move around everyday.  

Linda needs to spend every minute with him to watch over and interpret what the doctors are doing and saying.  She is a nurse herself.  The bad thing is that she is missing so much work that she is now very much concerned that she could lose her job.  SO PLEASE PRAY FOR HER STAMINA IN DEALING WITH SO MUCH, AND HER JOB SITUATION AS WELL.

Linda's computer has been down so she is not able to keep everyone informed, but she is so very thankful for all of you and the awesome power of your prayers for Rudy and her.  HASHEM LISTENS TO THE PRAYERS OF HIS PEOPLE.  

Thank you all so much,

Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/c50f2206/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Feb 15 15:41:03 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:41:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,
 
I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united without recognizing our brothers and sisters.
 
I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small community in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our shul in the middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community and they are being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and to appreciate the roles of both ?houses.?
 
The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become Jews there will be nobody left to do the ?last days? job of Joseph.
 
We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.  Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with community.  No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced there by plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without being forced.
 
I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.
 
I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.
 
And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking of negative experiences, but maybe they weren?t well received because they didn?t appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah is his ELDER brother.  This doesn?t diminish Joseph, it gives us someone to trust and learn from.
 
What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually learn to appreciate one another.
 
It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the Kingdom.
 
Web Hulon
 

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800From: youngbarzel at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
Shavua tov/Buena semana,
 
    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about it...
                             Hanoch




 
by Doni Joszef

Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry, my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as Hitler did."
This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in, brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. 
Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim, another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a way by which we hope never to re-experience. 
Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and disassociation? Is there another way?
CALL ME NA?VE
When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way, of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful stretch, to say the least.
But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our enemies? 
I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. 
Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. 

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it not be enough for consoling love?
Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror victims. 
Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. 
One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India, Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada, Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 

Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com to get involved).

I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish Family. 

For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com




This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/90266706/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 16:35:59 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 14:35:59 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy's fever spiking again
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS226D6B587FE9C381BA291FBAB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS226D6B587FE9C381BA291FBAB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902151435t4ae1224fkf0be0bb6572bad5b@mail.gmail.com>

My prayers are with both Rudy and Linda, may HaShem take care of them...
           * Hanoch
*
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Patricia Robbins <
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Have just spoken to Linda, and Rudy's fever is spiking again.  It goes up
> to 103 degrees!  Doctors cannot find what the problem is.  PLEASE PRAY for
> him!  He is also in a lot of pain, having very severe leg cramps.  They are
> having to use a lift to get him out of bed so that he can move around
> everyday.
>
> Linda needs to spend every minute with him to watch over and interpret what
> the doctors are doing and saying.  She is a nurse herself.  The bad thing is
> that she is missing so much work that she is now very much concerned that
> she could lose her job.  SO PLEASE PRAY FOR HER STAMINA IN DEALING WITH SO
> MUCH, AND HER JOB SITUATION AS WELL.
>
> Linda's computer has been down so she is not able to keep everyone
> informed, but she is so very thankful for all of you and the awesome power
> of your prayers for Rudy and her.  HASHEM LISTENS TO THE PRAYERS OF HIS
> PEOPLE.
>
> Thank you all so much,
>
> Pat
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/3c3b12e1/attachment.html 

From arvidson at ctc.net  Sun Feb 15 16:53:08 2009
From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:53:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090215225253.DPHY29472.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>

Ronnie, Where are you located in South Carolina?

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ronnie Hulon
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:41 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?

 

Shalom all,

 

I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but
rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united
without recognizing our brothers and sisters.

 

I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than
rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small community
in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our shul in the
middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community and they are
being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and to appreciate
the roles of both ?houses.?

 

The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep
Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We
have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of
the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become
Jews there will be nobody left to do the ?last days? job of Joseph.

 

We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are
comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.
Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in
Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with community.
No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced there by
plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without being
forced.

 

I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something
about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving
behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of
Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part
of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even
Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and
sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.

 

I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but
communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to
love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last
days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.

 

And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received
with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we
been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking of
negative experiences, but maybe they weren?t well received because they
didn?t appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in
preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah is
his ELDER brother.  This doesn?t diminish Joseph, it gives us someone to
trust and learn from.

 

What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make
unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress
what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a
little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually
learn to appreciate one another.

 

It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the
Kingdom.

 

Web Hulon

 

 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?

Shavua tov/Buena semana,

 

    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for
a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
it...

                             Hanoch


 One
<http://articles.aish.com/graphics/articles/OnePeople,OneHeart230x150.jpg> 

 
<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+J
oszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year> by Doni Joszef

 

Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is
like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
Hitler did."
This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. 
Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
way by which we hope never to re-experience. 
Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
disassociation? Is there another way?
CALL ME NA?VE
When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one
heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish
unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way,
of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his
time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't
exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach
denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful
stretch, to say the least.
But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our
fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
enemies? 
I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the
more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. 
Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. 

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have
lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel
concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who
were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young
lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was
not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would
be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it
not be enough for consoling love?
Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
victims. 
Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. 
One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 

Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the
globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one
to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/>  to get
involved).


I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
Family. 

For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com
<http://www.blevechad.com/> 





This article can also be read at:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 






 

  _____  

Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
<http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009
> 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/13/09
18:29:00


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/b2582010/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 18:33:14 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:33:14 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902151633g4c15a480x355a553da1323bd8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Web,

     I'm thrilled to hear about the community that you and your neighbors
have developed.  And I think you are totally correct in saying that creating
communities are the keys for personal growth and relationship building.

      I'm aware of two Ephramite groups in South Carolina, having met Joan
Pennington as well as Jan & Craig O'Dell (ironically, I met them all in
Israel).  Is your group tied in with either of theirs?  Just curious...

      Keep up the great work -  maybe others will be inspired by your
success and create other communities throughout the U.S.

       B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                *Hanoch
*
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>  Shalom all,
>
>
>
> I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but
> rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united
> without recognizing our brothers and sisters.
>
>
>
> I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than
> rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small
> community in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our
> shul in the middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community
> and they are being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and
> to appreciate the roles of both "houses."
>
>
>
> The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep
> Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We
> have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of
> the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become
> Jews there will be nobody left to do the "last days" job of Joseph.
>
>
>
> We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are
> comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.
> Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in
> Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with
> community.  No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced
> there by plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without
> being forced.
>
>
>
> I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something
> about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving
> behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of
> Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part
> of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even
> Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and
> sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.
>
>
>
> I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but
> communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to
> love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last
> days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.
>
>
>
> And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received
> with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we
> been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking
> of negative experiences, but maybe they weren't well received because they
> didn't appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in
> preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah
> is his ELDER brother.  This doesn't diminish Joseph, it gives us someone
> to trust and learn from.
>
>
>
> What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make
> unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress
> what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a
> little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually
> learn to appreciate one another.
>
>
>
> It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the
> Kingdom.
>
>
>
> Web Hulon
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800
> From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
>
>   Shavua tov/Buena semana,
>
>     The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know
> for a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
> cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
> truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
> it...
>                            *  Hanoch*
>   [image: One] by Doni Joszef<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+Joszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year>
>  *Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
> murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.*
>
> "We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
> ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
> Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad '*farbrengin*.' The Jewish World is
> like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
> somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
> and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
> together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
> smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
> my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
> Hitler did."
> This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
> scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
> Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
> dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
> brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
> divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews.
> Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
> another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
> the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
> forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
> intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
> way by which we hope never to re-experience.
> Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
> Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
> disassociation? Is there another way?
> *CALL ME NA?VE*
> When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "*B'lev Echad* (with
> one heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of
> Jewish unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging
> way, of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was
> wasting his time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting
> harmoniously" isn't exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt
> to breach denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a
> fanciful stretch, to say the least.
> But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
> unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
> *shep nachas*, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past
> our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
> enemies?
> I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all
> the more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
> some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
> insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
> finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity.
> Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
> and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
> all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
> you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
> gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
> but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together.
>
> Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. *B'lev Echad* may
> have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The *B'lev Echad* event is a
> novel concept, inspired by the first *yartzeit* of those eight innocent
> souls who were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.
> Eight young lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their
> slaughterer was not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish'
> his victims would be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of
> hatred. should it not be enough for consoling love?
> Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
> Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
> victims.
> Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
> what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah.
> One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
> across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
> unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
> participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
> Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
> Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney.
> Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around
> the globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for
> one to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/> to get
> involved).
>
>
> I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
> for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
> Family.
> * For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
> participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com<http://www.blevechad.com/>
> *
>
>
>
>
>
>  This article can also be read at:
> http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it
> out.<http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/e3321d6d/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb 15 19:05:20 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:05:20 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy's fever spiking again
In-Reply-To: <855590370902151435t4ae1224fkf0be0bb6572bad5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL119-DS226D6B587FE9C381BA291FBAB60@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902151435t4ae1224fkf0be0bb6572bad5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <314394C930964015A651185886FC018F@bettylaptop>

Yes, prayers here too for both Rudy and Linda for a complete healing,
strength and stamina to go thru this ordeal, and also that Linda's job be
preserved.  May HaShem indeed take care of them!  Thank you Pat for keeping
us informed.

 

Much love,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:36 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rudy's fever spiking again

 

My prayers are with both Rudy and Linda, may HaShem take care of them...

            Hanoch

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Patricia Robbins
<patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

Have just spoken to Linda, and Rudy's fever is spiking again.  It goes up to
103 degrees!  Doctors cannot find what the problem is.  PLEASE PRAY for him!
He is also in a lot of pain, having very severe leg cramps.  They are having
to use a lift to get him out of bed so that he can move around everyday.  

 

Linda needs to spend every minute with him to watch over and interpret what
the doctors are doing and saying.  She is a nurse herself.  The bad thing is
that she is missing so much work that she is now very much concerned that
she could lose her job.  SO PLEASE PRAY FOR HER STAMINA IN DEALING WITH SO
MUCH, AND HER JOB SITUATION AS WELL.

 

Linda's computer has been down so she is not able to keep everyone informed,
but she is so very thankful for all of you and the awesome power of your
prayers for Rudy and her.  HASHEM LISTENS TO THE PRAYERS OF HIS PEOPLE.  

 

Thank you all so much,

 

Pat


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/10ce908c/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb 15 19:53:17 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:53:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <855590370902151633g4c15a480x355a553da1323bd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902151633g4c15a480x355a553da1323bd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38A8747689C54592947CA51FD11047CA@bettylaptop>

Web, yes this sounds wonderful.  There are little pockets of Ephramites all
over the U.S. as we all know, and for those who are not drawn to join Judah
by means of conversion, what better way than to join in and build a
community such as yours. Do you have relationships with any of the other
Ephramite communities?  You make a good point here about us being ?gathered?
when we ?gather.? 

 

I think the article that Hanoch posted should give us much hope and food for
thought.  As the article pointed out, it is scary to think that it took a
Hitler to gather and unite the Jews
surely we can unite for a better reason
and don?t need another Hitler to help do the 

 

Thanks so much for sharing,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:33 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?

 

Hi Web,

 

     I'm thrilled to hear about the community that you and your neighbors
have developed.  And I think you are totally correct in saying that creating
communities are the keys for personal growth and relationship building.  

 

      I'm aware of two Ephramite groups in South Carolina, having met Joan
Pennington as well as Jan & Craig O'Dell (ironically, I met them all in
Israel).  Is your group tied in with either of theirs?  Just curious...

 

      Keep up the great work -  maybe others will be inspired by your
success and create other communities throughout the U.S.

 

       B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                Hanoch

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom all,

 

I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but
rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united
without recognizing our brothers and sisters.

 

I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than
rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small community
in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our shul in the
middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community and they are
being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and to appreciate
the roles of both "houses."

 

The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep
Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We
have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of
the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become
Jews there will be nobody left to do the "last days" job of Joseph.

 

We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are
comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.
Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in
Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with community.
No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced there by
plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without being
forced.

 

I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something
about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving
behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of
Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part
of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even
Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and
sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.

 

I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but
communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to
love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last
days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.

 

And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received
with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we
been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking of
negative experiences, but maybe they weren't well received because they
didn't appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in
preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah is
his ELDER brother.  This doesn't diminish Joseph, it gives us someone to
trust and learn from.

 

What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make
unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress
what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a
little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually
learn to appreciate one another.

 

It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the
Kingdom.

 

Web Hulon

 

 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com 


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?

Shavua tov/Buena semana,

 

    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for
a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We
cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we
truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about
it...

                             Hanoch


One

 
<http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Doni+J
oszef&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year> by Doni Joszef

 

Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were
murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the
ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from
Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is
like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions
somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided
and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece
together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful
smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry,
my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as
Hitler did."
This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people
scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The
Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and
dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in,
brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not
divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. 
Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim,
another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for
the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a
forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting
intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a
way by which we hope never to re-experience. 
Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and
disassociation? Is there another way?
CALL ME NA?VE
When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one
heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish
unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way,
of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his
time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't
exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach
denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful
stretch, to say the least.
But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to
unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God
shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our
fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our
enemies? 
I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the
more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon
some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and
insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and
finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. 
Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal
and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after
all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting
you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can
gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly
but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. 

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have
lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel
concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who
were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young
lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was
not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would
be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it
not be enough for consoling love?
Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the
Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror
victims. 
Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for
what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. 
One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning
across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this
unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to
participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India,
Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada,
Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 

Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the
globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one
to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com <http://www.blevechad.com/>  to get
involved).


I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step
for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish
Family. 

For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to
participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com
<http://www.blevechad.com/> 






This article can also be read at:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 






 

  _____  

Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
<http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009
> 


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/062bfb83/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Feb 15 21:13:38 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:13:38 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Thought provoking quote and Mishpatim
Message-ID: <F511D91DA11C4C0CB005DABDEDFCB58F@bettylaptop>

Your beliefs become your thoughts.
Your thoughts become your words.
Your words become your actions.
Your actions become your habits.
Your habits become your values.
Your values become your destiny.
-- Mahatma Gandhi

Elisheva/Betty


This quote caught my eye when I was on the aish.com website.  I copied and
pasted the part below regarding the parsha for this week, which concluded
with the quote above.  I found the entire teaching well worthwhile.  If you
are interested, you can click on the link below.

 

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/shalomweekly/Misphatim_5769.asp

 







Torah Portion of the Week
Mishpatim

One of the most mitzvah-filled Torah portions, containing 23 positive
commandments and 30 negative commandments. Included are laws regarding: the
Hebrew manservant and maidservant, manslaughter, murder, injuring a parent,
kidnapping, cursing a parent, personal injury, penalty for killing a slave,
personal damages, injury to slaves, categories of damages and compensatory
restitution, culpability for personal property damage, seduction, occult
practices, idolatry, oppression of widows, children and orphans.

The portion continues with the laws of: lending money, not cursing judges or
leaders, tithes, first-born sons, justice, returning strayed animals,
assisting the unloading of an animal fallen under its load, Sabbatical year,
Shabbat, the Three Festivals (Pesach, Shavuot & Succot).

Mishpatim concludes with the promise from the Almighty to lead us into the
land of Israel, safeguard our journey, ensure the demise of our enemies and
guarantee our safety in the land - if we uphold the Torah and do the
mitzvot. Moses makes preparations for himself and for the people and then
ascends Mt. Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

* * *

Dvar Torah
based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

The Torah states:

"Do not go after the majority to do evil" (Exodus 23:2).

Rabainu Bachya explains that the plain meaning of our verse is that if you
see many people doing something that is wrong, you should not follow their
example.

It is natural for a person to imitate the behavior of others and say, "So
many other people are doing this, it can't be so wrong if I do it also." The
Torah is telling us that every person is responsible for his own behavior
and that Truth is not legislated by majority rule. It takes courage and
strength of character to be different from other people and to live your
life by your ideals. If you appreciate that the most important thing in the
world is to do the will of the Almighty, you will be able to withstand
social pressure.

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/0d672dd2/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 8032 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/0d672dd2/attachment.gif 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 15 22:45:27 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:45:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS22285C3540EAEC5E587998BAB70@phx.gbl>

Just got in tonight and read this post.  WOW!!!!  This is amazing.  Are most of your members Christians?  How long has the Community been in existence?  Is it like a Kibbutz, or do all members just buy land in the vicinity and find jobs locally?  Are your ages varied, or are you mostly young marrieds?  This is so interesting!  How many are there in your Community?  How did those from far away States hear about the Community?  Is there a website?

Shalom to all of you,

Avigail/Pat


From: Ronnie Hulon 
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:41 PM
To: roots of faith 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?


Shalom all,



I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united without recognizing our brothers and sisters.

 

I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small community in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our shul in the middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community and they are being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and to appreciate the roles of both ?houses.?

 

The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become Jews there will be nobody left to do the ?last days? job of Joseph.

 

We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.  Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with community.  No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced there by plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without being forced.

 

I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.

 

I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.

 

And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking of negative experiences, but maybe they weren?t well received because they didn?t appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah is his ELDER brother.  This doesn?t diminish Joseph, it gives us someone to trust and learn from.

 

What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually learn to appreciate one another.



It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the Kingdom.



Web Hulon

 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?


Shavua tov/Buena semana,

    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about it...
                             Hanoch
       
      by Doni Joszef  Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. 

"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry, my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as Hitler did."
This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in, brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. 
Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim, another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a way by which we hope never to re-experience. 
Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?
Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and disassociation? Is there another way?
CALL ME NA?VE
When I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way, of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful stretch, to say the least.
But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our enemies? 
I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. 
Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. 

Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it not be enough for consoling love?
Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror victims. 
Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. 
One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India, Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada, Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 


Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com to get involved).

I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish Family. 


For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com




This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090215/a0d01253/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 07:07:31 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:07:31 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An interesting approach to life's 'challenges'
Message-ID: <855590370902160507v4ede9869o28519265e73664b4@mail.gmail.com>

Like most people, I often wonder about the challenges that many of us face,
and wonder, "why us?"  This article takes an interesting approach in
answering that question.
                                          *Hanoch*
         [image: Hashem's Special Forces]
By: Batya Rosen<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=batya+rosen&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]

The Jewish people continue to find themselves the midst of tremendous
trials. From mounting political pressure from America and the newly
inaugurated President Barack Obama, to Iran and Hizbullah, to the lack of
rain in Israel, the pressure is mounting. And that is just the *land* of
Israel ? everywhere, Jews face terrible sicknesses r"l, the "shidduch
crisis" and skyrocketing numbers of divorces, children at risk, people
losing their jobs and wealth, and more. No family has been spared. On top of
this, anti-Semitism is skyrocketing around the world, to levels not seen
since pre-World War II.
In response, we cry from the depths of our souls: *"Ad mosai ? hinachem al
avdecha!"* ? *"Until when??? Have mercy on your servant!"* (Tehillim 90). We
talk to Hashem in *hisbodedus*, we give *tzedakah*, we do more and more *
mitzvos*, we work and work and work ? and it feels like it is falling on
deaf ears. The pressure continues. We feel ourselves breaking, coming apart
at the seams ? far past the boiling point, the water is pushing on the lid,
threatening to completely boil over. Deep inside, we ask: *"Eich? How? How
could this be? Where is Hashem when I need Him???"*

What is the *emes*, the deep truth, of the situation? Hashem is carrying
us. In fact, Hashem is ALWAYS carrying us ? even when we think we are the
one walking on our own, making the decisions, life is good ? truly, even
then Hashem is carrying us. How many terrible bacteria and deadly cells are
in our systems, that Hashem destroys for us? Each part of our body is a
complete miracle ? if any tiny part of it doesn't function correctly, boy do
we know about it. Just think about the pain of an ingrown nail on your
pinkie, or having flat-foot. All the more so, all the occurrences every day,
the people we meet, our jobs, our families, just driving to and from work
safely?Hashem is carrying us always. It's just that there are particular
times in our lives where we realize just how little our efforts and our
intentions really accomplish on their own, and recognize the full extent to
which Hashem truly does carry us.

And why all the terrible suffering? Every Jew in every time is not only a
servant of Hashem, but serves in Hashem's "army" so to speak. But our
generation is a special generation, with a special task. We are the
generation before the coming of Moshiach, a time prophesied to have
tremendous suffering and tests of faith. Rabbi Brody says in the *Trail to
Tranquility* ? "Certain souls are sent down to this world, and Hashem puts
an enormous amount of pressure on them?they are Hashem's special
forces." This applies to our entire generation - we are all Hashem's
"special forces."

Just as in a real army, only the special, elite units get the really tough
tasks, the "impossible missions." But what happens when these soldiers go
into battle? When the enemy is attacking them - do they run and cower in
fear? Absolutely not ? the face the situation head-on, with strength and
courage. Why? *Because they know who they are*.

Soldiers in the elite unit know that they were called to this difficult task
because they have the capability to overcome it. When the going gets tough,
they get tougher, because that is what they were trained for. They take
pride in being assigned a difficult mission, and never give up on
themselves.

We are no different, except that we don't always remember that we're in the
special forces. We get into the heat of battle, but don't realize our
strengths, our training, our mission. Instead of running from a difficult
ordeal, we should thank Hashem and take pride in our difficult assignment,
for it is an honor and a privilege to serve no different than serving in the
IDF. We should think to ourselves: "*What an elite unit I am in, that You
gave me such a difficult assignment! Wow, wow, wow - please give me the
ability to succeed in my mission! Thank you for trusting me with it!"*

Even more, real armies always have extensive briefings in order to prepare
the troops before the mission, and learn what worked and what didn't after
the mission. We should be no different. Every morning, we need to take a
moment to think about what our task for that day is, and ask Hashem to help
us accomplish it successfully. We should stand tall and salute ourselves as
members of Hashem's special forces so that we can face our day's work with
happiness and strength. And in the evening before we go to sleep, we review
our day: did we accomplish the goals we set for ourselves in the
morning? Where did we succeed, and where could we have done better?

It is also important to remember that just as an army provides for the basic
necessities of the soldiers ? not as payment for their work but in order
that they should have the ability to do it ? so too, Hashem. We don't
receive our food, shelter, possessions, etc. that they should be "ours" any
more than a tank belongs to a tank crewman. It is not a tit-for-tat
situation, where we do what Hashem wants, and we receive payment in the form
of material items. We receive the material items we need to complete our
missions. We can ask for what we need to complete our missions (and perhaps
re-evaluate our jobs if the resources and task don't match up), and we must
be sustained in order to have the strength to do the work. But to request or
desire anything more is like the tank crewman desiring to own the tank or
the army base ? it's absurd.

Soldiers have uniforms and special badges of honor, and so do we. For men,
it is their *kippah* and *tzitzis*, and for women, our modest dress and head
covering once we're married. Could you imagine a soldier going into the
field wearing a bathing suit, or without his gear? No soldier would ever
come to base without his uniform! Neither should we. We should also wear our
uniforms proudly, as a reminder not only to the world, but also to
ourselves, of who we are.

Finally, it is important to remember that even the most experienced soldier
must lean on Hashem and ask Him for success, while knowing what his
abilities and strengths are. *Lefum tza'ara agra* ? in accordance with the
effort (not the result!) is the reward. We must put in our efforts and know
who we are, believing in ourselves and facing difficult assignments with
courage and resolve just like a special forces soldier, while recognizing
that ultimately, Hashem is carrying us, and the outcome of our efforts are
not guaranteed but ordained by Hashem.

Private Batya Rosen, Special Forces - reporting for duty.

   Read more about Spiritual
Growth<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/spirituality_and_faith/spiritual_growth.aspx?category=61&pageid=1&language=english>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/30de3440/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 07:17:37 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:17:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "Oh why do they hate us so?"
Message-ID: <855590370902160517r5ea5e97ex38411c655ec029b@mail.gmail.com>

<http://feeds.feedburner.com/mysticalpaths>
   "Oh Why Do They Hate Us So?" from "Mystical Paths"
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/mysticalpaths>
------------------------------
 Oh Why Do They Hate Us So?
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/MysticalPaths/~3/540198960/oh-why-do-they-hate-us-so.html>

<http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8OF9xSIaX3s/SZE9y0Qu4mI/AAAAAAAABW4/hJCUdU3zfA0/s400/Small-Crater_2053.jpg>
*by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths <http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/>*

...Our leaders say they don't want to fight but are forced to do so. They
are willing to give up the Land of Israel, a gift and inheritance from
HaKodesh Baruch Hu (the Holy One, Blessed Be He) for peace.

...Western leaders say it's a matter of poverty and restriction. All will be
made better if Israel gives them a country and money and an economy and and
and makes all wonderful and good for them. The man (Israel) is keeping them
down, so what response do you expect?

*But what do THEY say?* Hashem is kind, when WE refuse to hear the truth,
refuse to read the words of the Torah, refuse to value the GIFT of the Land
of Israel, Hashem will remind us...

At an Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP) conference at Brooklyn College
in Brooklyn, New York, co-sponsored by the Council on American-Islamic
Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the Holy
Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF), among others, Wagdi
Ghuniem told the audience in Arabic:

"The Jews distort words from their meanings. . . . They killed the prophets
and worshipped idols. . . . Allah says he who equips a warrior of Jihad is
like the one who makes Jihad himself."

Ghoneim then reminded the audience of the Jews' "infidelity," "stealth," and
"deceit," and told the audience that the Israeli/Palestine conflict was
fundamentally not a dispute over land, but over belief:

*"Suppose the Jews said 'Palestine you [Muslims] can take it.' Would it then
be ok? What would we tell them? No! . . . The problem is belief, it is not a
problem of land."*



I had a bit of a heated discussion with a visitor this Shabbos. A (not so)
young man from the US, son of a community rabbi, who is learning in Israel
was complaining about Israel. The people are difficult to deal with, the
culture is unpleasant, every store experience is a battle, customer service
is unknown, the learning is not what he has expected, doing some outreach in
Tel Aviv was an ugly experience. He Doesn't Like Israel.

I granted that some of his points may be valid, those some are just cultural
difference that you learn and adapt to. However, I told him these were
probably the same excuses used by the people of Bavel (Babylon) to avoid
returning with Ezra HaSofer (Ezra the Scribe). Does he ignore the mitzvah of
yishuv haaretz (settling the land) and the intimate connection between
Torah, Mitzvot, and the Land of Israel? Would he not come to Israel during
the geulah because aspects are uncomfortable to him???

He responded with a classic cop-out, "when Moshiach comes, it will all be
fine, I'll come then."

I asked him if he ever heard a rebbe or rosh yeshiva insulting Eretz
Yisroel? I wondered if he davens (prays) towards Israel and Jerusalem, if he
says Shema that promised the rains IN ISRAEL in their time, if he says
birkat hamazon which mentions Israel.

He said he was leaving, he couldn't stand Israelis and it was good for him
in his home (US) state.

I appreciate, oh so very much, the difficulties to living in Israel and the
cultural adjustments that have to be made. I understand the arguments that
yishuv haaretz is or is not a mitzvah incumbent upon us right now. *But
those who intend to build a permanent edifice outside of Israel and spit
upon the concept of the Land of Israel are doomed to have that edifice fall.
*

...And our enemies, which have suddenly out-of-nowhere woken up and started
attacking us world-wide<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3671730,00.html>,
will make sure of it.

*Photo from Israel the Beautiful
Blog<http://www.israelthebeautiful.blogspot.com/>,
"Machtesh Katan - Small Crater in the Negev"*
Published at Mystical Paths, MPaths.com <http://mpaths.com/>. Reading it
somewhere else? Stop by the source! <http://mpaths.com/>
 <http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=fTkgEI.Q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=Rd7lS9.Q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=eYp9Qf.q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=jEcA5H.Q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=Qm8mc6.Q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=hwRhwn.q>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/~f/MysticalPaths?a=9thloH.Q>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/55f7ed84/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 07:27:50 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:27:50 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Purim Resources
Message-ID: <855590370902160527m3fefe860l41211a3d60a23f23@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone!

Purim, the fun-filled Jewish holiday, falls on the
14th of the Hebrew month of Adar. This year Purim
begins Monday night March 9, 2009.
(In Jerusalem it is celebrated one day later.)

The J Site - Jewish Education and Entertainment
http://www.j.co.il

has several entertaining features for Purim:

Purim Trivia
Why do people eat poppy seeds on Purim ?
>From which tribe was Mordecai ?
Why was Haman angry at Mordechai ?
Who was queen of Persia before Esther ?
Esther had another name, what was it ?
How many times is Haman's name mentioned in the megillah ?
What did the king do when he couldn't sleep ?
What does the word "Esther" mean ?
How many advisors did king Achashverosh have ?

The above questions are examples from the multiple choice
Flash quiz. There are two levels of questions, two timer settings.
Both kids and adults will find it enjoyable.

Purim Clipart
Whether you need a picture to attach to your "Mishloach Manot",
a picture for your child's class project, a graphic for your
synagogue, Hillel or JCC Purim announcement, the Jewish Clipart
Database has the pictures for you.
You can copy, save and print the graphics in three different sizes.

Additional Purim resources and games on the J site include:
Purim Word Search Game (English, Hebrew, Russian)
My Jewish Coloring Book - Purim Pictures
Hebrew Hangman - Purim
Hebrew Purim Songs with Vowels (Nikud)

The J site has something for everyone, but if that is not
enough, there are now 82 Purim links on my holiday hotsites.
The sites have everything ranging from laws and customs to
games and recipes. Site languages include English, Hebrew,
Russian, Spanish, French, Portugese and German.
All 82 links have been reviewed / checked over the past week.
The address is:
http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaypu.htm

and......

I posted a list of 68 cool Purim videos on YouTube ranging
from funny songs, plays, parades and Purim Shpiel.
Enjoy the videos at:
http://www.jr.co.il/videos/purim-videos.htm

Please forward this message to family and friends,
so they may benefit from these holiday resources.

An early Happy Purim!
Jacob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/35861610/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 07:44:01 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:44:01 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Beautiful song for Monday AM
Message-ID: <855590370902160544y2176222fm916ca86dd23133aa@mail.gmail.com>

This is a beautiful song, "Poem of the grasses," based on a teaching of Rav
Nachman of Breslev.  The words in English and transliterated Hebrew are
below; enjoy.
                                             *  Hanoch*

Click here: YouTube - Poem of the
Grasses<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFfgH0oJdwE&feature=related>

    *SHIRAT HA'ASAVIM * SHIR HAASAVIM DANCE  [image: Play
audio]<http://israelidances.com/Audio/Shirat%20Haasavim%20(C)%20Shlomo%20Maman-2008%20_%20.ram>

Da lekha,
shekol ro'eih ve ro'eih
yeish lo nigun meyuchad mishelo.

Da lekha,
shekol eisev va'eisev
yeish lo shirah meyuchedet mishelo.
Umishirat ha'asavim
na'aseh nigun shel ro'eih.
Kamah yafeh, kama yafeh vena'eih
kesheshom'im hashirah shelahem.
Tov me'od lehitpaleil beineihem
uvesimchah la'avod et Hasheim.
Umishirat ha'asavim
mitmalei haleiv, umishtokeik.

Ukhshehaleiv, min hashirah mitmalei
umishtokeik el erets yisra'eil.
Or gadol azay nimshakh veholeikh
mikdushatah shel ha'arets alav.
Umishirat ha'asavim,
na'aseh nigun shel haleiv.
   THE POEM OF THE GRASSES* * THE GREENS' SONG

Do know
that each and every shepherd
has his own tune.

Do know
that each and every grass
has its own poem.
And from the poem of the grasses
a tune of a sheppard is made
How beautiful, how beautiful and pleasant
to hear their poem.
It's very good to pray among them
and to serve the Lord in joy
And from the poem of the grasses
the heart is filled and yearns

And when the poem causes the heart to fill
and to yearn to the Land of Israel
a great light is drawn and goes
from the Land's holiness upon it.
And from the poem of the grasses
a tune of the heart is made.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/d0c5dfce/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 08:57:38 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:57:38 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Confession Prayer
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0902160657v422df13bo59702127bf94212d@mail.gmail.com>

Steve,

The last version of the Confession Prayer that I have is VI.  I see on your
site that there is a version VII, but it won't open.  Can I get a copy of
the latest version?

Kim
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/bcd1c7f5/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 09:22:16 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:22:16 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <855590370902160722y78e7180oace3ec2d940125@mail.gmail.com>

Chaverim Yikarim,

     With the holiday of Purim fast approaching (the evening of March 9th),
it's time to think of one of the joyous aspects of celebrating the Chag;
giving 'mishloach manot' - gift packages of food and other goodies.

      What better time for us to remember those brave Israeli soldiers who
sacrifice so much for us, here, in the comfort of our own homes.  You can go
to the website:  Thankisraelisoldiers.org

      The packages are filled with delicious Purim treats and practical
items
that soldiers told us they need and want.

The  whole country will be celebrating Purim and they will be delivering the
packages to soldiers on bases and in the hospitals so they also enjoy the
holiday also

It is very easy to send a package:

Choose a package from $18, $25 or $36.
Add a personal note of thanks. Choose which area of the country you want
your package sent.
Click send and Your "Thank Israeli Soldiers" Purim package
is on its way!
100% of your money goes to the soldiers

www.thankisraelisoldiers.org
Thank Israeli Soldiers was initiated in 2008 by 3 IDF reserve officers who
want to show soldiers the support of the world Jewish community.
info at thankisraelisoldiers.com
                          * Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/d4ae27d0/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Mon Feb 16 10:19:25 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:19:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] an experiment
Message-ID: <019c01c99052$575e84e0$0400a8c0@marvin>

I do not understand Hebrew, but I ran across this and listened because
something in it touched my spirit.  As I set and listened tears begin to run
down my cheeks.  The clip ended and I listened the second time. Again the
same response.  Not knowing what the words said,  but knowing that my spirit
was connecting to something beyond my human understanding.  Three
individuals came to mind.   I offered up a pray for some souls that Hashem
needs to touch / keep his hand of protection on. Not really knowing what the
words were saying I knew what I was feeling and so that directed the
direction of my prayers.  Music has a way of touching something deep within
us..     I was curious so I looked and discover what the words are and where
this came from along with a little history.   If your interested in this
little experiment..  listen to the song in the first clip.  Then if you like
I,  need an English interpretation you can find that in the second clip.
Was this a PR..   could be.. it got my attention.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAko-0ox7ls 

After learning the meaning of the words, I took time to pray for Hashem's
protection on these individuals again....   What an awesome God we serve!
Just something interesting...   that happened along,  The way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1MWYAJbWs 

 

Shalom,

marvin

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/63669804/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Mon Feb 16 10:54:30 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?
In-Reply-To: <855590370902151633g4c15a480x355a553da1323bd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902150739kb76a279n2f7a9fe38898fe6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W48AB553C6FCB3101B1EF19C5B60@phx.gbl> 
	<855590370902151633g4c15a480x355a553da1323bd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W23D440E7B733E99B6F1C74C5B70@phx.gbl>


Shalom, To answer everyone?s questions:
 
Our community began as a ?Messianic? congregation in my basement over 14 years ago.  This grew into the community that we now live in.  We all started buying and moving on to adjoining land about five years ago.  As soon as someone would commit, a place would become available.  Everyone owns their own land except for one family who rents and one single man who has a large camper on someone?s land.
 
We have people of all ages.  Our oldest is in her mid 70s and our youngest is only 1 year old.  There are currently 34 folks, with married couples with children as well as single males and females.  We do sometimes have folks join us for Shabbat and some of the moedim that are not a part of the community.
 
We are from varied backgrounds and ethnicities, although the majority of our people are from a Christian background. We do not use that title for ourselves as we don?t generally adhere to Christian doctrines.
 
We are not tied in with any other group, although I do know Jan & Craig.  So far we haven?t found any other Ephramite communities, only congregations, although we know other communities must be out there.
 
The folks that came from other states found out about us in a variety of ways.  I used to occasionally speak at conferences and travel to other congregations as a Hebrew roots and Temple teacher.  We have also hosted some Sukkot gatherings and there was a fellow that used to play my recorded Shabbat teachings on Pal Talk.  We gained people from each of these venues.
 
Our web site is www.1bread.org.
 
Be blessed,
Web

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:33:14 -0800Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?From: youngbarzel at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Hi Web,
 
     I'm thrilled to hear about the community that you and your neighbors have developed.  And I think you are totally correct in saying that creating communities are the keys for personal growth and relationship building.  
 
      I'm aware of two Ephramite groups in South Carolina, having met Joan Pennington as well as Jan & Craig O'Dell (ironically, I met them all in Israel).  Is your group tied in with either of theirs?  Just curious...
 
      Keep up the great work -  maybe others will be inspired by your success and create other communities throughout the U.S.
 
       B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                Hanoch
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


Shalom all,
 
I would not call Ephramite unity a joke, as it is no laughing matter, but rather I would call it a sad story.  It is true that we cannot be united without recognizing our brothers and sisters.
 
I am part of a group of Ephramite folks that have decided that rather than rolling our eyes, we would do something about it.  We have a small community in South Carolina.  We all live on adjoining property with our shul in the middle.  Our children are being raised in Torah and community and they are being taught to embrace both Ephraim and Judah as brothers and to appreciate the roles of both "houses."
 
The truth is that we appear more Jewish than anything else, as we keep Shabbat and the other Moedim, eat kosher and practice the purity laws.  We have not become Jewish because we understand that we are some of those of the return of the House of Joseph, and that if we all convert and become Jews there will be nobody left to do the "last days" job of Joseph.
 
We strive to make our community a place that our brothers in Judah are comfortable.  We want unity and we realize that it starts with community.  Before Yisrael was delivered form Egypt, we were all gathered together in Goshen to get to know one another again.  Again, this starts with community.  No one was magically transported to Goshen.  We were forced there by plagues.  How awesome it would be if we gather this time without being forced.
 
I know that folks are scattered and spread out, but WE must do something about this.  We will be gathered when we gather.  It will mean leaving behind family and friends and jobs and security, but this was required of Avram and it is required of his seed.  We have had folks move to be a part of our community from Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Arizona and even Mexico.  Some of these folks left mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and children and careers to begin this gathering.
 
I am certainly not recommending that we all move to South Carolina, but communities must be established all over the world so that we can learn to love one another.  Maybe when this takes place we will all find the last days Goshen and then go home to Eretz Yisrael.
 
And as for relationships between Judah and Joseph, we have been received with curiosity by Judah, but also with great encouragement.  Never have we been mistreated or made to feel inferior.  I have read of folks speaking of negative experiences, but maybe they weren't well received because they didn't appreciate the uniqueness of the job that Judah has been given in preserving the Torah.  It is also helpful when Joseph realizes that Judah is his ELDER brother.  This doesn't diminish Joseph, it gives us someone to trust and learn from.
 
What I am saying is that we all need each other and now is the time to make unity not just a mental awareness but a physical reality.  We must stress what we have in common rather than what we disagree about.  if we spend a little time together without our doctrines and pet peaves, we may actually learn to appreciate one another.
 
It will be done when we do it.  This is the Torah made flesh.  This is the Kingdom.
 
Web Hulon
 

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:56 -0800From: youngbarzel at gmail.com 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] "One heart, one people?



Shavua tov/Buena semana,
 
    The article below deals with the issue of 'Jewish unity,' but I know for a fact that 'Ephramite unity' is as much of a JOKE as Jewish unity.  We cannot come together as a UNITED PEOPLE (think: 'United Kingdom') until we truly begin thinking of each other, AND OURSELVES as family.  Think about it...
                             Hanoch




 
by Doni Joszef

Let's unite on the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered during the Merkaz HaRav massacre.
"We are uniting worlds tonight," whispered Rabbi Y.B. Soloveitchik in the ears of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as he brought some of his students from Yeshiva University to join in a Chabad 'farbrengin.' The Jewish World is like a jigsaw puzzle, with countless sects, denominations, and factions somehow meant to fit beautifully together, yet we are all too often divided and at odds with one another. Rabbi Soloveitchik seemed overjoyed to piece together a small portion of these scattered puzzle pieces. But his hopeful smile soon faded into tears, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe responded: "I'm sorry, my dear friend, but we'll never be able to unite the Jewish world as well as Hitler did."This seems to be our habitual national tendency. "There is a certain people scattered and dispersed... let it be recorded that they be destroyed" (The Book of Esther 3:8-9). We "scatter and disperse" -- splintering off and dividing into sub-sects based on differences, until our enemies step in, brutally reminding us that we are not as different as we thought. We are not divided; we are one and the same -- we are Jews. Hitler's bitter reminder didn't come with one chapter addressing Chasidim, another addressing Zionists, another for the 'Yeshivishe Velt,' another for the Modern Orthodox, and yet another for the 'Unaffiliated.' He saw a forest, not its trees, and he set fire to that forest with daunting intentions of national extermination. Yes, indeed, we were united -- in a way by which we hope never to re-experience. Can we unite without the help of gas chambers and suicide bombers?Does it take a Haman or a Hitler to break down the walls of division and disassociation? Is there another way?CALL ME NA?VEWhen I saw my brother handing out flyers that read: "B'lev Echad (with one heart) -- Jews around the world join for a historic celebration of Jewish unity " -- I couldn't help but roll my eyes, in a polite, encouraging way, of course. As any good older brother would do, I told him he was wasting his time. Jews like to do a lot of things, but "uniting harmoniously" isn't exactly one of our more frequent endeavors. An attempt to breach denominational boundaries to celebrate Jewish unity seemed to me a fanciful stretch, to say the least.But, then again, isn't God eagerly awaiting our self-motivated attempts to unify His beloved Family, regardless of our minute differences? Wouldn't God shep nachas, as it were, from even the most delicate attempt to see past our fine-line differences and particularities sans the encouragement of our enemies? I understand the complicated nature of ideological differences, made all the more acute when matters of Jewish law come into play. Nevertheless, upon some honest soul-searching, it seems to me that subtle specks of ego and insecurity fuel some of the bitter throes of resentment, irritation, and finger-pointing which characterize our strife and disunity. Tendencies to condemn, nit-pick, and blame as a defensive means to conceal and alleviate personal insecurities are weaknesses that I understand; after all, they are my own. I'm no all-loving, all-accepting super-Jew, inviting you all to join me in congenial embrace. But I do believe that we can gradually surpass our insecurities, overcome our inadequacies, and -- slowly but surely, one Jew at a time -- flourish in our eternal journey together. Call it naive, call it far-fetched, call it idealistic. B'lev Echad may have lofty aspirations, but it's a start. The B'lev Echad event is a novel concept, inspired by the first yartzeit of those eight innocent souls who were murdered in cold blood during the Merkaz HaRav massacre. Eight young lives were shattered for one reason: they were Jewish. Their slaughterer was not concerned about 'how Jewish' or 'what type of Jewish' his victims would be. Simply being a Jew was enough for murderous acts of hatred. should it not be enough for consoling love?Jews around the globe will participate in a worldwide completion of the Talmud, as eight Torah Scrolls will be dedicated to the families of terror victims. Free from the contamination of political orientation, Jews are uniting for what has been, and always will be, our common ground -- the Torah. One by one, Jewish schools and communities around the world -- spanning across denominational realms -- have signed up to participate in this unprecedented experience. As of yet, over 25,000 people have signed up to participate, from all over the United States, Israel, England, India, Moscow, Belarus, New Zealand, Warsaw, Krakow, Berlin, Leipzig, Canada, Cologne, Frankfurt, Vienna, Chili, Mexico City, Honk Kong, and Sydney. 
Unadulterated by agendas, politics, or fundraising, Jews from all around the globe are volunteering to participate, and there are numerous ways for one to do so (visit www.BlevEchad.com to get involved).
I am deeply inspired by this initiative. The program may be one small step for contemporary Jewry, but it is one giant leap for our eternal Jewish Family. 
For more information, or to sign up your school and/or community to participate in this worldwide event, visit:www.BlevEchad.com




This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/One_People3_One_Heart$.asp 


Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out._______________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/a76c913a/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 16 19:29:25 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:29:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy update
Message-ID: <COL119-DS8D4CAA6BEA153C37A47D3BAB40@phx.gbl>

DEAR ONES, THANK YOU FOR PRAYING FOR RUDY AGAIN!  OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED!  BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!!!!  

So much has changed for the better since early yesterday when I spoke to Linda.  Below is the email telling us the good news.    ~ Pat

      Hi All,

        Baruch HaShem, the fever appears to be GONE.  WBC count down and all tests negative.  It appears that Rudy has gout now and some other leg pains, which no one has an answer for, but he can't do any weight -bearing, so he can't walk.  That is what is keeping him in the hospital right now.  He will go to a rehab hospital  for PT on the legs next, perhaps in 2-3 days.

      Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers,

      Love and blessings,
      Linda
     

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/8c7a03c5/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 16 19:43:01 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:43:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] an experiment
In-Reply-To: <019c01c99052$575e84e0$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <019c01c99052$575e84e0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS22F048919275D8ACE075C1BAB40@phx.gbl>

This was so lovely, Marvin.  Thank you for sharing it and for telling us about the spectacular way HaShem blessed you with this PR!   - So totally awesome!!!!!!   Pat


From: mhyde 
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] an experiment


I do not understand Hebrew, but I ran across this and listened because something in it touched my spirit.  As I set and listened tears begin to run down my cheeks.  The clip ended and I listened the second time. Again the same response.  Not knowing what the words said,  but knowing that my spirit was connecting to something beyond my human understanding.  Three individuals came to mind.   I offered up a pray for some souls that Hashem needs to touch / keep his hand of protection on. Not really knowing what the words were saying I knew what I was feeling and so that directed the direction of my prayers.  Music has a way of touching something deep within us..     I was curious so I looked and discover what the words are and where this came from along with a little history.   If your interested in this little experiment..  listen to the song in the first clip.  Then if you like I,  need an English interpretation you can find that in the second clip.   Was this a PR..   could be.. it got my attention.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAko-0ox7ls 

After learning the meaning of the words, I took time to pray for Hashem's protection on these individuals again....   What an awesome God we serve!   Just something interesting...   that happened along,  The way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1MWYAJbWs 

 

Shalom,

marvin



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/8e508e88/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 20:10:24 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:10:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep an Eye on Pakistan
Message-ID: <99445.28753.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just thought I'd mention the current problems in Pakistan.? Terrorists are trying to take over the country at this time, and are succeeding in their actions.
?
Remeber that Pakistan is Nuclear.  Obama's plans for Afghanistan may be in danger.

It is also important to remember that Iran borders Pakistan.

Cody



Pakistan inks truce deal with militants in NW?area

The Associated Press
Mon, Feb 16, 2009 (10:54 a.m.)
Pakistan agreed Monday to suspend military offensives and impose Islamic law in part of the restive northwest, making a gesture it hopes will help calm the Taliban insurgency while rejecting Washington's call for tougher measures against militants.
A U.S. defense official called the deal "a negative development," and some Pakistani experts expressed skepticism the truce would decrease violence. One human rights activist said the accord was "a great surrender" to militants.
Elsewhere in the northwest, missiles fired by a suspected U.S. spy plane killed 30 people in a house used by an extremist commander, witnesses said. It was the deadliest of almost three dozen apparent American attacks on al-Qaida and Taliban targets in the semiautonomous tribal lands close to the Afghan border since last year.
Monday's peace agreement applies to the Malakand region, which includes the former tourist destination of the Swat Valley, where extremists have gained sway by beheading people, burning girls schools and attacking security forces since a similar agreement broke down in August.
U.S. officials complained the earlier accord allowed militants to regroup and rearm and urged Pakistan's government to concentrate on military solutions to the insurgency in the rugged frontier region, where al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding.
The new agreement intensified that unease.
"It is hard to view this as anything other than a negative development," a senior Defense Department official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of relations with Pakistan and because he was not authorized to speak on the record.
There was no official comment in Washington because government offices were closed for the Presidents Day holiday.
Speaking in India, President Barack Obama's special envoy for the region, Richard Holbrooke, did not directly address Pakistan's peace effort in Malakand. But he said the rise of the Taliban in Swat was a reminder that the U.S., Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."
The government in northwestern Pakistan announced the deal after officials met with local Islamic leaders who have long demanded that Islamic, or Shariah, law be followed in this staunchly conservative corner of Pakistan.
Among the participants was a pro-Taliban cleric who authorities said would return to Swat and tell militants there to disarm, although there was no mention in the agreement of any need for extremists to give up their weapons.
Many analysts questioned whether the fighters would listen to the cleric and said they doubted the deal would stop violence. Critics asked why authorities were responding to the demands of a militant group that has waged a reign of terror.
"This is simply a great surrender, a surrender to a handful of forces who work through rough justice and brute force," said Athar Minallah, a lawyer and civil rights activist. "Who will be accountable for those hundreds of people who have been massacred in Swat? And they go and recognize these forces as a political force. This is pathetic.
The Swat Taliban, which had said Sunday it would observe a 10-day cease-fire in support of the government's initiative, welcomed the deal.
"Our whole struggle is for the enforcement of Shariah law," Swat Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan said. "If this really brings us the implementation of Shariah, we will fully cooperate with it."
Several war-weary residents interviewed in the Swat area welcomed the announcement.
"We just want to see an end to this bloody fighting," said Fazal Wadood, a teacher. "We do not mind what way it comes. It is no problem if it comes through the Islamic system."
Pakistan's shaky civilian government is under intense domestic pressure to retake control of the Swat Valley, although many Islamist lawmakers and other Islamic groups have urged it to negotiate with the militants.
Amir Haider Khan Hoti, chief minister in North West Frontier Province, said troops in Swat would remain there but stop offensive operations and go on "reactive mode," retaliating only if attacked. He stressed they would not leave the valley until the militant threat was over.
A spokesman for the army said militants would have to live up to the truce deal.
"At the moment, the military has been asked to hold back and allow the peace initiative there," Maj. Gen Athar Abbas said. "But it is to be seen whether they (the militants) follow this cease-fire in true letter and spirit or take undue advantage of it."
Hoti said the main changes to the legal system promised by the accord already are included in existing laws stipulating Islamic justice. But he said they would be implemented only after peace was restored in the valley.
Hoti said the laws, which allow for Muslim clerics to advise judges when hearing cases and the setting up of an Islamic appeals court, would ensure a much speedier and fairer justice system than the current system, which dates back to British colonial times.
The rules do not ban female education or contain other strict interpretations of Shariah that have been demanded by many members of the Taliban in Pakistan _ restrictions imposed by Afghanistan's Taliban regime that was ousted by the U.S.-led invasion in late 2001.
The accord does not involve the tribally ruled regions adjacent to the Afghan border, where the United States has been targeting suspected militants with missile strikes fired from drones believed launched from neighboring Afghanistan.
Monday's attack was the first in the Kurram area.
Rehman Ullah, a resident of Baggan village, said drone planes were seen in the sky before the attack on the house. He said he counted 30 bodies dug out of the rubble.
A Pakistani intelligence official said field informants reported militants showed up at the village bazaar and ordered 30 caskets. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to media.
The Obama administration has signaled it will continue such attacks, which U.S. officials say have killed several top al-Qaida leaders. Pakistani leaders have voiced strong objections, saying the strikes undercut support for their own war against militants.

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 16 21:51:57 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:51:57 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep an Eye on Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <99445.28753.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <99445.28753.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <939035868-1234842742-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1187057813-@bxe1157.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>


Let's see.

Iran is about to finish a russian backed nuclear facility supposedly for peaceful purposes.  However, they are accumulating weapons grade uranium and just put a communications satellite into orbit.  This last feat required a ballistic grade launch vehicle.

North Korea is about to launch it's first tactical delivery vehicle and refuses to back away from it's nuclear program.

By the way, both of these countries are led by charismatic mad men.

Pakistan has just handed over control of their lawmaking apparatus to the Taliban after admitting that the Mumbai attack was planned on their soil.  Not only do they have nuclear capability but they border both Iran and India (who also has nuclear capability), not to mention that they, as well as Afgahnistan, are known to be the nesting place of terrorism.

Chavez has just consolidated himself as dictator forever in Venezuela.  Actually this is masquerading as democracy in the form of term limits.  Yet the Russian navy has just paid visit there.

Russia took control of Georgia last year, look at a map ofsouthern asia and take note of where Georgia is.

Russia is now negotiating with the Unites States over control of Khazikstan (sp) for our deployment of a missle shield.

And last but not least, we are about to lose control of Mexico to the drug cartels.

I know it's a gloomy picture but we gotta wake up.

Make no mistake, in the eyes of our common enemies, Israel and the US are the same entity.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: cody oneill <oneillcody at yahoo.com>

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:10:24 
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep an Eye on Pakistan


Just thought I'd mention the current problems in Pakistan.? Terrorists are trying to take over the country at this time, and are succeeding in their actions.
?
Remeber that Pakistan is Nuclear.  Obama's plans for Afghanistan may be in danger.

It is also important to remember that Iran borders Pakistan.

Cody



Pakistan inks truce deal with militants in NW?area

The Associated Press
Mon, Feb 16, 2009 (10:54 a.m.)
Pakistan agreed Monday to suspend military offensives and impose Islamic law in part of the restive northwest, making a gesture it hopes will help calm the Taliban insurgency while rejecting Washington's call for tougher measures against militants.
A U.S. defense official called the deal "a negative development," and some Pakistani experts expressed skepticism the truce would decrease violence. One human rights activist said the accord was "a great surrender" to militants.
Elsewhere in the northwest, missiles fired by a suspected U.S. spy plane killed 30 people in a house used by an extremist commander, witnesses said. It was the deadliest of almost three dozen apparent American attacks on al-Qaida and Taliban targets in the semiautonomous tribal lands close to the Afghan border since last year.
Monday's peace agreement applies to the Malakand region, which includes the former tourist destination of the Swat Valley, where extremists have gained sway by beheading people, burning girls schools and attacking security forces since a similar agreement broke down in August.
U.S. officials complained the earlier accord allowed militants to regroup and rearm and urged Pakistan's government to concentrate on military solutions to the insurgency in the rugged frontier region, where al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding.
The new agreement intensified that unease.
"It is hard to view this as anything other than a negative development," a senior Defense Department official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of relations with Pakistan and because he was not authorized to speak on the record.
There was no official comment in Washington because government offices were closed for the Presidents Day holiday.
Speaking in India, President Barack Obama's special envoy for the region, Richard Holbrooke, did not directly address Pakistan's peace effort in Malakand. But he said the rise of the Taliban in Swat was a reminder that the U.S., Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."
The government in northwestern Pakistan announced the deal after officials met with local Islamic leaders who have long demanded that Islamic, or Shariah, law be followed in this staunchly conservative corner of Pakistan.
Among the participants was a pro-Taliban cleric who authorities said would return to Swat and tell militants there to disarm, although there was no mention in the agreement of any need for extremists to give up their weapons.
Many analysts questioned whether the fighters would listen to the cleric and said they doubted the deal would stop violence. Critics asked why authorities were responding to the demands of a militant group that has waged a reign of terror.
"This is simply a great surrender, a surrender to a handful of forces who work through rough justice and brute force," said Athar Minallah, a lawyer and civil rights activist. "Who will be accountable for those hundreds of people who have been massacred in Swat? And they go and recognize these forces as a political force. This is pathetic.
The Swat Taliban, which had said Sunday it would observe a 10-day cease-fire in support of the government's initiative, welcomed the deal.
"Our whole struggle is for the enforcement of Shariah law," Swat Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan said. "If this really brings us the implementation of Shariah, we will fully cooperate with it."
Several war-weary residents interviewed in the Swat area welcomed the announcement.
"We just want to see an end to this bloody fighting," said Fazal Wadood, a teacher. "We do not mind what way it comes. It is no problem if it comes through the Islamic system."
Pakistan's shaky civilian government is under intense domestic pressure to retake control of the Swat Valley, although many Islamist lawmakers and other Islamic groups have urged it to negotiate with the militants.
Amir Haider Khan Hoti, chief minister in North West Frontier Province, said troops in Swat would remain there but stop offensive operations and go on "reactive mode," retaliating only if attacked. He stressed they would not leave the valley until the militant threat was over.
A spokesman for the army said militants would have to live up to the truce deal.
"At the moment, the military has been asked to hold back and allow the peace initiative there," Maj. Gen Athar Abbas said. "But it is to be seen whether they (the militants) follow this cease-fire in true letter and spirit or take undue advantage of it."
Hoti said the main changes to the legal system promised by the accord already are included in existing laws stipulating Islamic justice. But he said they would be implemented only after peace was restored in the valley.
Hoti said the laws, which allow for Muslim clerics to advise judges when hearing cases and the setting up of an Islamic appeals court, would ensure a much speedier and fairer justice system than the current system, which dates back to British colonial times.
The rules do not ban female education or contain other strict interpretations of Shariah that have been demanded by many members of the Taliban in Pakistan_ restrictions imposed by Afghanistan's Taliban regime that was ousted by the U.S.-led invasion in late 2001.
The accord does not involve the tribally ruled regions adjacent to the Afghan border, where the United States has been targeting suspected militants with missile strikes fired from drones believed launched from neighboring Afghanistan.
Monday's attack was the first in the Kurram area.
Rehman Ullah, a resident of Baggan village, said drone planes were seen in the sky before the attack on the house. He said he counted 30 bodies dug out of the rubble.
A Pakistani intelligence official said field informants reported militants showed up at the village bazaar and ordered 30 caskets. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to media.
The Obama administration has signaled it will continue such attacks, which U.S. officials say have killed several top al-Qaida leaders. Pakistani leaders have voiced strong objections, saying the strikes undercut support for their own war against militants.

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--



_______________________________________________

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Feb 16 22:07:21 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:07:21 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy update
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS8D4CAA6BEA153C37A47D3BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS8D4CAA6BEA153C37A47D3BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CCB90D53950F450E9863ADE73B5F90C5@bettylaptop>

Great news, Pat.  Baruch HaShem.  Thanks for the update.

 

Love and Blessings,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 7:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy update

 

DEAR ONES, THANK YOU FOR PRAYING FOR RUDY AGAIN!  OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN
ANSWERED!  BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!!!!  

 

So much has changed for the better since early yesterday when I spoke to
Linda.  Below is the email telling us the good news.    ~ Pat

 


Hi All,

 

  Baruch HaShem, the fever appears to be GONE.  WBC count down and all tests
negative.  It appears that Rudy has gout now and some other leg pains, which
no one has an answer for, but he can't do any weight -bearing, so he can't
walk.  That is what is keeping him in the hospital right now.  He will go to
a rehab hospital  for PT on the legs next, perhaps in 2-3 days.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers,

 

Love and blessings,

Linda

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090216/cfbacb39/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 05:41:49 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:41:49 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Rudy update]
Message-ID: <499AA27D.5030502@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/4c34c46d/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Patricia Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Rudy update
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:29:25 -0500
Size: 7050
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/4c34c46d/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 06:10:35 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:10:35 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Keep an Eye on Pakistan]
Message-ID: <499AA93B.9000400@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/c79679b5/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Keep an Eye on Pakistan
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:51:57 +0000
Size: 15565
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/c79679b5/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 06:24:29 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:24:29 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] MASADA. 360 degrees.
Message-ID: <499AAC7D.1040800@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/fe8efeae/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 06:45:37 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:45:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] MASADA. 360 degrees.
In-Reply-To: <499AAC7D.1040800@westnet.com.au>
References: <499AAC7D.1040800@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370902170445v4ad6b236lbccc36de960f85bb@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Joe,

     Thanks for posting this, it really is SO COOL!!  I first climbed Masada
just when I was turning 17, and my fascination with it has only grown over
the years.

                 *  Hanoch
*
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Chaverim,
>
> WOW!!!!!!!. Please enjoy.
> *http://mordagan.com/links/mezada/tourweaver_mezada.html
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/bb911eaf/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 06:45:34 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:45:34 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Viewpoint - 3D Visualization - Movies
Message-ID: <499AB16E.7060401@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/77650af6/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 06:48:13 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:48:13 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
Message-ID: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/7110c78c/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Eric Toledano" <tleric at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: FW: Disgrace for England !
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:45:04 +1000
Size: 48963
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/7110c78c/attachment.eml 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 06:56:13 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:56:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE Keep an Eye on Pakistan
Message-ID: <148473.31282.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Great stuff.  Let's not forget that Obama is convinced that Israel solves all of his problems with the so called "moderate arabs."

Divide Jerusalem, uproot families from there homes, put the holy sites under international control, and everything will be peachy.





"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Feb 17 07:05:28 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:05:28 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] MASADA. 360 degrees.]
Message-ID: <499AB618.4050606@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/86812ae0/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] MASADA. 360 degrees.
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:45:37 -0800
Size: 6330
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/86812ae0/attachment.eml 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 07:14:34 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 05:14:34 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] MASADA. 360 degrees.]
In-Reply-To: <499AB618.4050606@westnet.com.au>
References: <499AB618.4050606@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370902170514u61cbd5e4ja55f09cfb06bcb37@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Joe,

    Well, I'm sure I won't be charging up the 'snake path' as I did when I
was a teenager.  But we've got to get you out of that back brace.  My leg
is, Baruch HaShem, 100% perfect, and I don't want to leave you in the dust!
:-)

     The key is to take that climb *together *;  it's time we began doing
all of this stuff, 'together.'
Hope you had a great Monday, it's just getting started over here...

     Refuah Shlema!
              *Hanoch*


On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Hanoch Achi,
>
> hope to climb it with you next time. Might not not be as quick as the first
> time. 8-)
> Two old cronies, one with a walking stick and the other with a back brace.
>
> Laila Tov
> JOE.
> *
>
> Shalom Joe,
>
>      Thanks for posting this, it really is SO COOL!!  I first climbed
> Masada just when I was turning 17, and my fascination with it has only grown
> over the years.
>
>                  *  Hanoch
> *
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>wrote:
>
>> *Shalom Chaverim,
>>
>> WOW!!!!!!!. Please enjoy.
>> *http://mordagan.com/links/mezada/tourweaver_mezada.html
>>
>> *Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>> *
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/a5ac3511/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 09:31:07 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:31:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>

This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  

We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.

Avigail/Pat
   
From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !


Shalom Chaverim,



The English translation is as the following Hebrew

                                ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

                                ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

                                ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

                                ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

                                ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

                                ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

                                ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

                                Disgrace for England ! 

                                This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

                                That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

                                It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

                                This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

                                Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

                                This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

                                Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

                                Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.

                                 
                                 

                                 

                                 


                             
                       
                 
           
     





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/2b8083b3/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Feb 17 10:23:49 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:23:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social Implications of
	Humancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
	<COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com>

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607
<http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers>
&context=infopapers

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/2eadfd84/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 12:50:37 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:50:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] As Anti-Semitism Burns...
Message-ID: <855590370902171050l645af7c4p8d682eeed4f89d24@mail.gmail.com>

Generation Z Blog <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
 Shevat 23, 5769, 2/17/2009
As Anti-Semitism Burns...


Jewish students 'held hostage' in Toronto
Hillel<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788139&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>
*The students in the Hillel office were evacuated soon after by police
escort, amid cries of "Get off our campus" and "Shame on Hillel." "I have
never in my life felt threatened and hated like I did that night," Tepper
said. Ferman, the Hillel president, who was called a "f*****g Jew" and a
"dirty Jew" by the protesters, said, "We were basically being held hostage
in our own space." The incident was somewhat "ironic," Ferman said, because
45 minutes before the press conference, members of Hillel and the Hasbara
student organization had met with members of Students Against Israeli
Apartheid, in an attempt to "decrease tensions" between the groups.*

Surge of anti-Semitic attacks in
UK<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3671416,00.html>
*The London-based Community Security Trust, which monitors anti-Semitism and
works to safeguard the Jewish community in Britain, said 250 anti-Semitic
incidents were recorded in the four weeks after Dec. 27. That compares to 40
incidents from the same period the year before. Dave Rich, a spokesman for
the trust, said Jews in Britain are unfairly seen as local representatives
of Israel ? a view that fuels some of the anti-Semitic attacks.
*
Parisian Jews: Anti-Semitism on the rise
<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3671730,00.html>*The attack on
Benhamou occurred in the Parisian metro while he was on his way home. "Three
Arab-looking men jumped on me, called me a 'fucking Jew' and said they would
kill me," he recounted. "Before I even got the chance to respond, they
attacked me, broke my nose and beat me all over," he added. Benhamou
consequently spent four days in hospital with fractures in his face. The
assailants fled the scene and police found no trace of them. Benhamou said
he has not been the same since the incident. "It's a lifetime trauma. I
haven't been back to work since then because it's hard for me to breath. I'm
still afraid to walk around alone, and I do not plan on taking the metro
anymore. "There is no place for Jews in France; we can't keep living here
with these acts of barbarism. I already told my girlfriend that we are going
to make aliyah. There's nothing left for us here, I want my child to be a
sabra."*

Running Away to Home - Let the Jews of Venezuela Open Their
Eyes.<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8582>
*The Simon Wiesenthal Center reports about an invasion of a Caracas,
Venezuela, synagogue by 15 armed thugs one recent Saturday, during which the
synagogue's computers - with private information about members of the Jewish
community - were stolen. The Confederation of Latin American Macabi (CLAM)
asked Jewish communities worldwide to condemn the Venezuelan government's
well-orchestrated campaign against the Jews in Venezuela. CLAM reports:
Using an aggressive and dangerous tone never previously heard, clear
incitement and anti-Semitic expressions, the Government lead is followed
nationwide, with a group of pro-government journalists urging the population
to boycott businesses owned by Jews in Venezuela. For what are we waiting?
For the armed men and an excited mob to torch stores and businesses owned by
Jews?*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/5ead9fde/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Feb 17 16:07:39 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:07:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
	<COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>

Pat

 

I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun?s and bullets,  while we pack!

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  

 

We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.

 

Avigail/Pat

   

From: Joe <mailto:jid at westnet.com.au>  Indomenico 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !

 

Shalom Chaverim,





The English translation is as the following Hebrew









????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

Disgrace for England ! 

This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.

 

 

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/4c5a0e83/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:07:26 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:07:26 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'A Latin Love for Israel'
Message-ID: <855590370902171507x3242d7e6sf64c67c111aed903@mail.gmail.com>

translation of an article that appeared in the Israeli daily *Yediot
Aharonot*, May 16, 2008 *Musaf Le-Shabbat* (Weekend Supplement)



*A Latin Love for Israel*



*For years they lit candles in secret, carefully avoided attending church,
and hid their Bibles. Now, they have decided to come out into the open.
Thousands of descendants of Anousim (known as "Marranos") are seeking to
return to Judaism. But along the way it has become clear that even after the
Inquisition, they now face a new foe: some Jews are placing obstacles in
their path.*





This year, Antonio Lopez (age 41) once again celebrated the Passover Seder
in his home in Toledo, Spain, all by himself, almost in complete secrecy.
For three years already, Lopez, a descendant of *Bnei Anousim* (Hebrew for
"those who were coerced" ? the term is preferred by many over the derogatory
word "Marrano") has been in the process of returning to Judaism, but he
still keeps it a secret from his parents. "I don't have the courage to tell
them", he admits. "From my standpoint, it means returning and digging up a
painful family history. My family is very important to me, and I am not sure
if G-d would want me to take this step of telling them. It would cause them
a lot of suffering".



Lopez works in Spain's Central Bank as an expert in identifying and
uncovering counterfeit money. His role is to assist the police in uncovering
sophisticated mafia counterfeiting networks operating in Europe. The knitted
white yarmulke that he wears on his head and the *Tzitzit* (ritual fringes)
that hang down his elegant pants appear almost like an outfit that is
required for his job. But Lopez treats the process of embracing Judaism with
complete seriousness. Recently, he even made an appointment with a doctor in
order to undergo ritual circumcision.



In the past few years, a real phenomenon has become manifest. Thousands of
Spaniards, Portuguese and Brazilians who view themselves as *Bnei
Anousim*are awakening and seeking to return to the Jewish fold. Many
of them lived
for generations upon generations as secret Jews. Many families customarily
lit Sabbath candles behind closed windows. Inside their homes they would
refrain from eating pork and they would even salt their meat to dry out and
remove the blood. They did everything in order to avoid going to church.
There were those that kept a copy of the *Tanach* (Bible) or a
*Talit*(prayer shawl) in a hidden corner, while others fasted on Yom
Kippur. They
observed Jewish customs and passed them down from father to son and from
mother to daughter. They did not always understand the meaning of these
customs, but they observed them diligently. And now, they are starting to
come out of the closet.



*The Story Behind the Name*

* *

In order to understand this phenomenon one must go back in history to the
year 1391. Much to the Catholic Church's chagrin, the Jewish community of
Spain had flourished in the Middle Ages. Then, throughout Spain, pogroms
erupted against the Jews and the Church tried to compel them to convert to
Catholicism. The persecution reached its peak with the expulsion of the Jews
from Spain in 1492 when the Jews were given two options: to convert or to
leave.



Some 100 to 200 thousand Jews fled from Spain to Portugal where they were
forced to pay a ransom in order to preserve their Jewishness, but in the end
even this did not help them. The Spanish monarchs consented that the
Portuguese king could marry their daughter on condition that he would
cleanse his country of Jews. In the year 1497 the king of Portugal called
for all the Jews to come to the port of Lisbon, ostensibly to expel them.
But a trap awaited them: priests forcibly baptized them and converted them.
"This was a religious and social trauma" says Michael Freund, the founder
and Chairman of the *Shavei Israel* organization. "Some chose suicide and
death for their families instead".



As a result of the forced conversion, according to various estimates some 20
to 30 percent of Portugal's population is now descended from Jews. The *Shavei
Israel* organization, which works to strengthen the relationship among the
State of Israel, Diaspora Jewry and descendants of Jews around the world, is
assisting *the Bnei Anousim* to return to Judaism. In the past five years,
working in coordination with Israel's Chief Rabbinate, the organization has
helped more than 600 people from across the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking
world to return.



The organization reports an ongoing surge in the number of those approaching
them for help. *Shavei Israel* Rabbi Eliyahu Birnbaum has two main
explanations for this recent awakening: the decline in the power of the
Church, as well as the widespread use of the internet, which enables people
to search for material on Judaism without anyone knowing about it. "We
already see the existence of internet chat rooms and forums for *Anousim*",
he says.



Professor Yosef Ferrao Filipe (age 48) is an excellent example of the
revival taking place among the *Bnei Anousim*. Filipe, a psychologist from
the city of Porto in northern Portugal, remembers how they would observe
customs in his home whose meaning they did not completely understand, such
as lighting candles on Friday before sundown.



"When we were children they forbade us from counting stars, because if you
did that, they would know you were Jewish," Filipe says. "They warned us
that if we counted stars, warts would appear on our fingers. My mother and
grandmother would not sweep the house from the inside toward the outside,
but rather from the outside in, because *Anousim* feared that they would
instinctively stretch out their hand to kiss the *Mezuzah* even if there
wasn't one on the doorpost, and then they would be identified as Jews.
During my childhood I was required to go to church or else I could not
finish the year in the Catholic school I attended, but my family did not
allow me to go. The priest would call my father and he would somehow avoid
it. The children in the class sensed that something was different about me,
and they would cover for me and tell the priest that I had come to prayers."



The turning point in Filipe's life came 22 years ago, when he studied at
university in Paris and attended a synagogue for the first time in his life.
"I will never forget that visit for the rest of my days. For the first time
in my life I welcomed in the Sabbath. I felt as if I had known it my entire
life, as if it were a part of me. There was a familiarity about the words of
the songs and of the *Kiddush* (a prayer recited by Jews on the Sabbath). I
felt as if I were reborn."



Since that visit, Filipe began to draw closer to religion and to become
interested in conversion. His conversion process was very complex and lasted
for more than 20 years, since there was no Jewish community at that time in
the city in which he lived. But thanks to *Shavei Israel* he was able to
complete the process successfully. Two years ago, together with a group of
15 other *Bnei Anousim*, he came from Porto to the Israeli Chief Rabbinate's
conversion court in Jerusalem, where they were all officially recognized as
Jews. His wife and young son completed the process along with him.



According to Filipe, if one were to open a phonebook today in Portugal, he
would discover that 30% of the family names are typical *Bnei
Anousim*names. As part of the effort to observe Judaism in secret, the
*Anousim* would choose unique names, such as those of fruits like a pear or
pomegranate, first names which later became family names - such as Filipe,
or names of materials or professions. "The Catholics demanded that the *
Anousim* change their names and so they looked for a new name that would
preserve part of their Jewish identity", recounts Filipe.



In many cases, it was only in their final moments that parents would reveal
the secret of their identity to their children. So it was in the case of
Rafael Valenzuela (age 48), an employee at a human resources company in
Madrid. Before her death, his mother called him over and told him "We come
from a Jewish family, descendants of the Toledano family from Cordoba." His
mother's words shocked him, and as a result of that conversation he
initiated a process of conversion and also underwent ritual circumcision.
His Christian friends, he says, became accustomed over time to his new
faith. The main problem today, according to him, is that public opinion in
Spain is hostile to Israel. "I think that we, the *Anousim*, can assist
Israel in this area", says Valenzuela.



Michael Freund thinks that the Israeli government is neglecting the *Bnei
Anousim* and does not appreciate how helpful they could be in areas such as
*hasbara* (public relations). "We are talking about thousands of people that
could be excellent ambassadors for Israel around the world, and yet the
State is completely ignoring them. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs should
establish a special department to strengthen relations with the *Anousim*.
The Jewish people and the State of Israel have a moral and historical
responsibility towards these people. They are our flesh and blood. Through
no fault of their own, their ancestors were taken from us, and in spite of
all this they managed to preserve their Jewish identity over the centuries.
The time has come for us to extend a hand to them, embrace them, and
facilitate their return home".



The way home is not always easy. In order to convert, Israeli authorities
require the *Bnei Anousim* to live in a Jewish community for a full year.
Then, at the end of the year, they come to Israel and go before a rabbinical
court for conversion. Along the way, they must undergo ritual circumcision.
Many Jewish communities slam the door in their faces and regard them with
suspicion.



*Tsimmes and Prayers*

* *

About 50 *Bnei Anousim* recently gathered for the first educational seminar
of its kind, which was organized by *Shavei Israel* in the Costa del Sol
region of southern Spain, at the country's first kosher hotel. On Friday
night they lit candles together, ate *cholent* and *tsimmes* (two
traditional Sabbath foods) danced and sang "*Am Yisrael Chai*" (the nation
of Israel lives) and "*Od Avinu Chai*" (our Father still lives) and they
prayed with fervor just like yeshiva students. "Look at how they are
praying", Freund said with emotion, "Look at their devotion, at their
sincerity. This is a genuine manifestation that comes from within, from
their Jewish heart and soul".



Among those participating in the seminar was Paulo Vitorino (age 40), a
father of six children and a businessman from Lisbon. During the Sabbath,
Vitorino displayed impressive cantorial talents. He knows all of the prayers
and Sephardic melodies by heart. "I heard the prayers on CDs and that is how
I learned," he says. "We are Jews in the home and Christians on the street,
and these double lives helped to maintain our identity. People married the
children of *Anousim* families in order to remain within the Jewish people.
My wife is also a daughter of *Anousim* from Belmonte. We lived for hundreds
of years like a secret sect."



Vitorino is angry at the Jewish communities and at the religious
establishment, which imposes many difficulties upon them. "They are like a
new Inquisition. For four years I tried to attend synagogue but was not
allowed to enter. With all due respect, I am not a heretic. I am a
Portuguese Jew. How dare they tell me I am not a descendant of Abraham? For
500 years we maintained a Jewish lifestyle at home. The secret passed from
father to son."



Yara Dotera (age 34), an artist and website designer, was born in Lisbon and
lives in Barcelona. In her family, too, the secret of their Jewishness was
passed down across the generations. "Unlike our neighbors, in our house we
never ate pork" she relates. "Our mother would explain to us that it was not
healthy. In our city, there was a tradition that once a year the townspeople
would go out to the town square and burn a doll to symbolize the burning of
the Jews. My mother would not let us go out and take part and we never
understood why. Instead, we would close the shutters and wait for the event
to be over. Only in recent years did I begin to make a connection between
these events".



After a close friend of hers underwent conversion, Dotera decided to draw
closer to Judaism. "I don't think about conversion because my husband is
Catholic and wants no part of it", she says, "but when I have children I
will raise them with a Jewish identity".



At least half of the participants in the seminar observe the Sabbath and
keep the Jewish dietary laws. They came via the method of "one friend brings
another". "I tell them that they are part of the Jewish family and that
their present situation is only because of a historical accident", says
Rabbi Birnbaum. "Currently, hundreds and thousands are coming out of the
closet and are declaring in a loud voice, 'I am from the *Bnei Anousim*. I
want to return to the Jewish fold.' And they don't merely say it, but they
are willing to take significant steps, such as undergoing ritual
circumcision. I believe that this phenomenon will continue to grow".



At a corner table sits the Perez family from the city of Saragosa. Rafael,
the father, Pilar Deito, the mother, and their two children ? 16 year-old
Daniel and 15-year old Bracha. "Twenty years ago I decided to say goodbye to
the Catholic Church and to return to Judaism", says the father. "I
approached the synagogues and Jewish communities throughout Spain, but they
closed the door on me everywhere. But I did not give up. At age 26 I
underwent circumcision."



Pilar Deito is also from a family of *Anousim* that still lives in their
original house dating back to the time of the expulsion from Spain. In the
doorway of the entrance, the original hole from the *Mezuzah* is
visible. *Shavei
Israel* is trying to figure out a way to help the Perez family to convert,
because there is no Jewish community in their area. Rafael is concerned that
his children will one day marry non-Jews and then assimilate. Today he works
at an internet startup company which also assists with Israel's public
relations efforts in Spain. He follows events in Israel, just like any
warm-hearted Jew.



In his summation at the close of the seminar, an impassioned Michael Freund
told the participants, "We want to do justice and to right the historical
wrong that was done to your ancestors 500 years ago. It won't happen from
today to tomorrow. It is a slow process and there are many obstacles along
the way but we are moving forward. We will continue with our efforts and we
will not desert you, the *Anousim*. We will not desist until the day comes
and you can all return to the Jewish people".
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/a71ed6c3/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb 17 17:20:11 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:20:11 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social Implications
	ofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com>
Message-ID: <021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Very interesting paper Patty.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/4e7f8e03/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:22:53 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:22:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social
	ImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com>
	<021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS2CDA7833DBD8C83DC92E4BAB40@phx.gbl>

I can't open it.  I tried before leaving for work this morning.  My son is flying, so I can't get him to put whatever it is I need on my computer so that I can open it.  If anyone can send it already opened, I'd appreciate it.  It DOES look very interesting, Patty.  Thank you for sending it!

Pat


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social ImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 


Very interesting paper Patty.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


  -------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


  http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/fef3ff81/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:24:39 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:24:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>

Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!  


From: mhyde 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


Pat

 

I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun?s and bullets,  while we pack!

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  

 

We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.

 

Avigail/Pat

   

From: Joe Indomenico 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !

 

Shalom Chaverim,





The English translation is as the following Hebrew

                                ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

                                ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

                                ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

                                ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

                                ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

                                ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

                                ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

                                Disgrace for England ! 

                                This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

                                That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

                                It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

                                This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

                                Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

                                This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

                                Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

                                Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.

                                 
                                 

                                 

                                 

                               
                             

                       

                 

           

     

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/a3bdad4c/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:31:13 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:31:13 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
	<COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone -

      This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is *NOT *true,
it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am
no fan of the British government, but this story is *NOT accurate.
*
        Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and
later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.
                           *Hanoch
*
2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

>  Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!
>
>  *From:* mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>  Pat
>
>
>
> I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become
> necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's
> and bullets,  while we pack!
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patricia Robbins
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>
>
> This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the
> murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain
> in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and
> deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it"
> is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true
> nonetheless.
>
>
>
> We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused
> us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.
>
>
>
> Avigail/Pat
>
>
>
> *From:* Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !
>
>
>
> *Shalom Chaverim,
> *
>
>
> *The English translation is as the following Hebrew*
>
> *????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ????*
>
> ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ?????
> ????? ????  ? *???????? ???????? *, ??????? ?? ???? ????? .
>
> ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???
> ??????? ?????? ????? .
>
> ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? .
>
> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20
> ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? ,
> ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? !
>
> ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ?
> ' *????* ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? .
>
> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -*40 ?????? *????? ??? ????? .
>
> ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? .
>
> ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ??
> ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!!
>
> *Disgrace for England !** *
>
> This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from
> the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that
> denies the holocaust.
>
> That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of
> how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.
>
> It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.
>
> This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6
> million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic
> priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and
> humiliated by the Nazis.
>
> Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying
> the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the
> world never forgets .
>
> This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.
>
> Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in
> the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the
> world so others may understand and help as well.
>
> Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please
> do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you
> for your efforts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/51dfa7b0/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:38:51 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:38:51 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'
Message-ID: <855590370902171538t4e7e914bh433184a4d8a4ba19@mail.gmail.com>

Sometimes I post articles that I find interesting, but don't necessarily
agree with.  Other times I post certain articles to see what reaction they
generate (or don't).  But, I totally relate to this article....
                   * Hanoch*
**

"Why I am a Bad Jew" by Dr. Kaminski

This was written by Rami Kaminski, MD, founder and
director of the Institute for Integrative Psychiatry in New York City.

Why I Am a Bad Jew

For centuries, we lived in Berdichev. In the brutal Ukrainian winter of
1941, SS soldiers arrived there and rounded up eighty-seven members of
my family - babies, young adults, octogenarians - stripped them naked,
marched them to a nearby ditch, and executed them. Their lifeless bodies
fell silently into a mass grave.

Like most Jews in Europe, my family "cooperated" with the Final
Solution. They did not resist or fight back. Six million Jews were
slaughtered in a period of four years. They received little sympathy
while they were still alive and hunted down like animals. There was no
public outcry because the Holocaust fit the world's narrative for Jews
during the past 2000 years: a people destined to be persecuted and
slaughtered.

During their two millennia in the Diaspora, Jews were not known to
resist. There are few recorded instances in which Jews turned against
their host nations or retaliated against their murderers. Instead, the
survivors - if there were any - were expelled or left for another place.
The murdered were regarded as "good" Jews They accepted their fate
helplessly, without resistance.
This narrative of the Jews has played out on the historical stage with
boring monotony: Jews get killed because they are Jews. Nothing novel
about it. After the Holocaust, however, the world, disgusted by this
particularly ghoulish period of history, accorded some sympathy for the
Jews.

Media commentary about the ongoing Gaza War reveals the world has now
reverted to its pre-Holocaust perspective. Today, the only good Jew is a
powerless Jew willing to become a dead one. The Zionist Revolution is to
blame. It changed everything. Jews re-created their own country. The
Arabs attacked the new Jewish state the day after independence and
promised to complete Hitler's genocide. In succeeding decades, the Arabs
attacked again and again. Strangely, the Jews, many of them refugees
from Arab nations, adopted a surprising, new tactic: they fought back.

With Zionism, the Jews stubbornly refused to follow the centuries-old
script. They refuse to be killed without resistance. As a result, the
world has become increasingly enraged at their impertinence.

The recent events in Gaza and Mumbai make this plain. In 2005, Israel
eliminated all Jewish presence in Gaza making it "Judenrein," and handed
it over to the Palestinians. Left behind were synagogues and thriving
green houses. The Arabs looted and destroyed them literally the day
after Israel's withdrawal was complete. Where these structures once
stood, the Palestinians built military bases and installed rocket
launchers to shell Israeli civilians. To date, some 7,000 missiles have
fallen on Israeli cities and towns, killing and maiming dozens, and
sowing widespread terror. Medical studies reveal nearly all Jewish
children in the communities bordering Gaza suffer from serious,
trauma-induced illness.

The Gazan Palestinians then elected Hamas to lead them. Hamas proceeded
to kill or imprison their political rivals, and its leaders, true to the
Hamas charter, were unabashed in clearly stating their aims: they will
not stop until they achieve their Final Solution, kill all the Jews,
take over the land of Israel, and establish a theocracy governed by
Islamic law.

As killing Jews for being Jews has been a national sport for centuries,
Islamic militants are justified in believing they are merely fulfilling
historical tradition in Argentina, India and Gaza. Surely the Jews in
Mumbai did not occupy Gaza. They were tortured and killed just for being
Jews. And predictably, in the eyes of the world, they immediately became
good Jews, just like my murdered family in Bertishev.

Good Jews would wait until Hamas has weapons enabling its members to
achieve their ultimate goal of absolute mass murder. Those enraged by
Israel's defensive military action insist Hamas uses only "crude"
rockets, as if Qassams were BB guns, and military inferiority were
somehow equivalent with moral superiority. In fact, Hamas now has
Iranian-supplied Grad missiles which have landed on Be'er Sheva and the
outskirts of Tel Aviv.

Westerners have had only sporadic exposure to the indiscriminant killing
in the name of "holy war" which Israel has lived with for years.
Memories of 9-11, Madrid, and London have dimmed. This is not because
the Islamic militants made a careful choice of weapons. They simply have
not yet acquired nuclear bombs. Once they do, the West will develop a
less detached view about the Islamists' professed intentions for the
"infidels."

The only enlightened people in the civilized world who actually get it
are the Israelis. They've not had time for detached philosophical
ponderings. They've been too busy confronting the reality of Islamic
fundamentalism.

Soon, Iran will have nuclear weapons. It will give them to Hezbollah and
Hamas. Today, Jews must take a position: either be "good" Jews willing
to be slaughtered without resistance, or be "bad" Jews who defend
themselves at the cost of being pariahs of our enlightened world. Good
Jews would wait for another six million to be murdered, and pick up to
leave for another country to start the cycle again. The bad ones refuse
to go calmly into the ditch.

I confess: I'm a bad Jew.

Rami Kaminski, MD, is Director and Founder of the Institute for
Integrative Psychiatry in New York, a not-for-profit organization aimed
at evaluating current psychiatric services and how they integrate with
medicine, such as the mutual effects between medical and psychiatric
conditions. Prior to that, Dr. Kaminkski was the Commissioner's Liaison
to Families and Community and Medical Director of Operations at the New
York State Office of Mental Health. Dr. Kaminski also holds an academic
position as Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Columbia University. He
earned recognition in 1990 from Mt. Sinai Hospital as Physician of the
Year, and received the Exemplary Psychiatrist Awards from the National
Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Dr. Kaminski's research explores
neuropsychiatric aspects of brain disorders, such as Alzheimer and
Parkinson's disease and movement disorders, as well as
psychopharmacology of schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. He
was for many years Director of The Schizophrenia research Unit at Mount
Sinai Hospital in NYC. Dr. Kaminiski also served as the Medical Director
of the PMHP and consultant to the committee in charge of developing the
Special Needs Program.
--------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/94f23698/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:39:22 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:39:22 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin><COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>

Thank goodness it's not true!  I tried to check it on Snopes before replying, but got nothing.  You would think that Snopes would have it.  Maybe I didn?t enter it correctly.

Really appreciate your telling us, Hanoch.  (And now I guess we'll have to unpack all the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Pat


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


Hey everyone - 

      This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is NOT true, it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am no fan of the British government, but this story is NOT accurate.
 
        Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.
                           Hanoch

2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

  Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!  


  From: mhyde 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


  Pat



  I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's and bullets,  while we pack!




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]



  This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  



  We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.



  Avigail/Pat

     

  From: Joe Indomenico 

  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

  Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !



  Shalom Chaverim,





  The English translation is as the following Hebrew

                                ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

                                ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

                                ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

                                ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

                                ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

                                ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

                                ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

                                Disgrace for England ! 

                                This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

                                That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

                                It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

                                This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

                                Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

                                This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

                                Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

                                Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.


                                 

                                 

                                 


                               

                         

                   

             

       




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________




  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/5c429d1e/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:42:32 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:42:32 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
	<COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370902171542w9fd92cbmd8d891777a5f0abd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Pat -

    Snopes does have it - check: 'England removing Holocaust curriculum'
It's not true now, but give it 5-10 years - MAXIMUM...
            * Hanoch
*
2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

>  Thank goodness it's not true!  I tried to check it on Snopes before
> replying, but got nothing.  You would think that Snopes would have it.
> Maybe I didn't enter it correctly.
>
> Really appreciate your telling us, Hanoch.  (And now I guess we'll have to
> unpack all the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:31 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>   *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
> Hey everyone -
>
>       This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is *NOT *true,
> it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am
> no fan of the British government, but this story is *NOT accurate.
> *
>         Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and
> later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.
>                            *Hanoch
> *
> 2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>
>>  Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!
>>
>>  *From:* mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>>
>>  Pat
>>
>>
>>
>> I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become
>> necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's
>> and bullets,  while we pack!
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
>> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patricia Robbins
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>>
>>
>>
>> This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the
>> murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain
>> in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and
>> deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it"
>> is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true
>> nonetheless.
>>
>>
>>
>> We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries
>> caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the
>> Land.
>>
>>
>>
>> Avigail/Pat
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM
>>
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !
>>
>>
>>
>> *Shalom Chaverim,
>> *
>>
>>
>> *The English translation is as the following Hebrew*
>>
>> *????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ????*
>>
>> ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ,
>> ????? ????? ????  ? *???????? ???????? *, ??????? ?? ???? ????? .
>>
>> ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???
>> ??????? ?????? ????? .
>>
>> ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? .
>>
>> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20
>> ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? ,
>> ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? !
>>
>> ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ?????
>> ? ' *????* ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? .
>>
>> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -*40 ?????? *????? ??? ????? .
>>
>> ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? .
>>
>> ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? .
>> ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!!
>>
>> *Disgrace for England !** *
>>
>> This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from
>> the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that
>> denies the holocaust.
>>
>> That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of
>> how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.
>>
>> It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.
>>
>> This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6
>> million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic
>> priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and
>> humiliated by the Nazis.
>>
>> Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying
>> the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the
>> world never forgets .
>>
>> This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.
>>
>> Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past
>> in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the
>> world so others may understand and help as well.
>>
>> Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts.
>> Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on.
>> Thank you for your efforts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/39b6d60d/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:45:34 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:45:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'
In-Reply-To: <855590370902171538t4e7e914bh433184a4d8a4ba19@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902171538t4e7e914bh433184a4d8a4ba19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS25B615CC1F791E723BE534BAB40@phx.gbl>

I'm a Bad Jew too!   Thanks, Hanoch.   Pat


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:38 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'


Sometimes I post articles that I find interesting, but don't necessarily agree with.  Other times I post certain articles to see what reaction they generate (or don't).  But, I totally relate to this article....
                    Hanoch

      "Why I am a Bad Jew" by Dr. Kaminski

                        This was written by Rami Kaminski, MD, founder and
                        director of the Institute for Integrative Psychiatry in New York City.
                         
                        Why I Am a Bad Jew
                         
                        For centuries, we lived in Berdichev. In the brutal Ukrainian winter of
                        1941, SS soldiers arrived there and rounded up eighty-seven members of
                        my family - babies, young adults, octogenarians - stripped them naked,
                        marched them to a nearby ditch, and executed them. Their lifeless bodies
                        fell silently into a mass grave.
                         
                        Like most Jews in Europe, my family "cooperated" with the Final
                        Solution. They did not resist or fight back. Six million Jews were
                        slaughtered in a period of four years. They received little sympathy
                        while they were still alive and hunted down like animals. There was no
                        public outcry because the Holocaust fit the world's narrative for Jews
                        during the past 2000 years: a people destined to be persecuted and
                        slaughtered.
                         
                        During their two millennia in the Diaspora, Jews were not known to
                        resist. There are few recorded instances in which Jews turned against
                        their host nations or retaliated against their murderers. Instead, the
                        survivors - if there were any - were expelled or left for another place.
                        The murdered were regarded as "good" Jews They accepted their fate
                        helplessly, without resistance.
                        This narrative of the Jews has played out on the historical stage with
                        boring monotony: Jews get killed because they are Jews. Nothing novel
                        about it. After the Holocaust, however, the world, disgusted by this
                        particularly ghoulish period of history, accorded some sympathy for the
                        Jews.
                         
                        Media commentary about the ongoing Gaza War reveals the world has now
                        reverted to its pre-Holocaust perspective. Today, the only good Jew is a
                        powerless Jew willing to become a dead one. The Zionist Revolution is to
                        blame. It changed everything. Jews re-created their own country. The
                        Arabs attacked the new Jewish state the day after independence and
                        promised to complete Hitler's genocide. In succeeding decades, the Arabs
                        attacked again and again. Strangely, the Jews, many of them refugees
                        from Arab nations, adopted a surprising, new tactic: they fought back.
                         
                        With Zionism, the Jews stubbornly refused to follow the centuries-old
                        script. They refuse to be killed without resistance. As a result, the
                        world has become increasingly enraged at their impertinence.
                         
                        The recent events in Gaza and Mumbai make this plain. In 2005, Israel
                        eliminated all Jewish presence in Gaza making it "Judenrein," and handed
                        it over to the Palestinians. Left behind were synagogues and thriving
                        green houses. The Arabs looted and destroyed them literally the day
                        after Israel's withdrawal was complete. Where these structures once
                        stood, the Palestinians built military bases and installed rocket
                        launchers to shell Israeli civilians. To date, some 7,000 missiles have
                        fallen on Israeli cities and towns, killing and maiming dozens, and
                        sowing widespread terror. Medical studies reveal nearly all Jewish
                        children in the communities bordering Gaza suffer from serious,
                        trauma-induced illness.
                         
                        The Gazan Palestinians then elected Hamas to lead them. Hamas proceeded
                        to kill or imprison their political rivals, and its leaders, true to the
                        Hamas charter, were unabashed in clearly stating their aims: they will
                        not stop until they achieve their Final Solution, kill all the Jews,
                        take over the land of Israel, and establish a theocracy governed by
                        Islamic law.
                         
                        As killing Jews for being Jews has been a national sport for centuries,
                        Islamic militants are justified in believing they are merely fulfilling
                        historical tradition in Argentina, India and Gaza. Surely the Jews in
                        Mumbai did not occupy Gaza. They were tortured and killed just for being
                        Jews. And predictably, in the eyes of the world, they immediately became
                        good Jews, just like my murdered family in Bertishev.
                         
                        Good Jews would wait until Hamas has weapons enabling its members to
                        achieve their ultimate goal of absolute mass murder. Those enraged by
                        Israel's defensive military action insist Hamas uses only "crude"
                        rockets, as if Qassams were BB guns, and military inferiority were
                        somehow equivalent with moral superiority. In fact, Hamas now has
                        Iranian-supplied Grad missiles which have landed on Be'er Sheva and the
                        outskirts of Tel Aviv.
                         
                        Westerners have had only sporadic exposure to the indiscriminant killing
                        in the name of "holy war" which Israel has lived with for years.
                        Memories of 9-11, Madrid, and London have dimmed. This is not because
                        the Islamic militants made a careful choice of weapons. They simply have
                        not yet acquired nuclear bombs. Once they do, the West will develop a
                        less detached view about the Islamists' professed intentions for the
                        "infidels."
                         
                        The only enlightened people in the civilized world who actually get it
                        are the Israelis. They've not had time for detached philosophical
                        ponderings. They've been too busy confronting the reality of Islamic
                        fundamentalism.
                         
                        Soon, Iran will have nuclear weapons. It will give them to Hezbollah and
                        Hamas. Today, Jews must take a position: either be "good" Jews willing
                        to be slaughtered without resistance, or be "bad" Jews who defend
                        themselves at the cost of being pariahs of our enlightened world. Good
                        Jews would wait for another six million to be murdered, and pick up to
                        leave for another country to start the cycle again. The bad ones refuse
                        to go calmly into the ditch.
                         
                        I confess: I'm a bad Jew.
                         
                        Rami Kaminski, MD, is Director and Founder of the Institute for
                        Integrative Psychiatry in New York, a not-for-profit organization aimed
                        at evaluating current psychiatric services and how they integrate with
                        medicine, such as the mutual effects between medical and psychiatric
                        conditions. Prior to that, Dr. Kaminkski was the Commissioner's Liaison
                        to Families and Community and Medical Director of Operations at the New
                        York State Office of Mental Health. Dr. Kaminski also holds an academic
                        position as Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Columbia University. He
                        earned recognition in 1990 from Mt. Sinai Hospital as Physician of the
                        Year, and received the Exemplary Psychiatrist Awards from the National
                        Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Dr. Kaminski's research explores
                        neuropsychiatric aspects of brain disorders, such as Alzheimer and
                        Parkinson's disease and movement disorders, as well as
                        psychopharmacology of schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. He
                        was for many years Director of The Schizophrenia research Unit at Mount
                        Sinai Hospital in NYC. Dr. Kaminiski also served as the Medical Director
                        of the PMHP and consultant to the committee in charge of developing the
                        Special Needs Program.
                        --------------------
                         
                         
                       
                 
           
     



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/8cf0dde9/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:47:54 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:47:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <855590370902171542w9fd92cbmd8d891777a5f0abd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin><COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl><855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902171542w9fd92cbmd8d891777a5f0abd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS6E964FB6D597C27351A2FBAB40@phx.gbl>

Will do, thanks!


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


Hi Pat - 

    Snopes does have it - check: 'England removing Holocaust curriculum'  It's not true now, but give it 5-10 years - MAXIMUM...
             Hanoch


2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

  Thank goodness it's not true!  I tried to check it on Snopes before replying, but got nothing.  You would think that Snopes would have it.  Maybe I didn't enter it correctly.

  Really appreciate your telling us, Hanoch.  (And now I guess we'll have to unpack all the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

  Pat


  From: Hanoch Young 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:31 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


  Hey everyone - 

        This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is NOT true, it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am no fan of the British government, but this story is NOT accurate.
   
          Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.
                             Hanoch

  2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

    Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!  


    From: mhyde 
    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Subject: RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]


    Pat



    I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's and bullets,  while we pack!




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]



    This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  



    We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.



    Avigail/Pat

       

    From: Joe Indomenico 

    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !



    Shalom Chaverim,





    The English translation is as the following Hebrew

                                ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

                                ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

                                ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

                                ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

                                ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

                                ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

                                ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

                                ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

                                Disgrace for England ! 

                                This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

                                That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

                                It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

                                This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

                                Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

                                This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

                                Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

                                Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.


                                 

                                 

                                 


                                 

                           

                     

               

         




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________






    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________




  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/c3e52c3e/attachment.html 

From invite+zz2964ay at facebookmail.com  Tue Feb 17 19:06:58 2009
From: invite+zz2964ay at facebookmail.com (Tracy Phillip Osborne)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:06:58 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out my Facebook profile
Message-ID: <a13755fc53aeb28d4a2c9988fdb51304@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org,

I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.

Thanks,
Tracy

To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1334604941&k=56B5XZSRPZYM5AEIWBZ4RV&r

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/06e2a300/attachment.html 

From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 23:01:06 2009
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:01:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Elections
Message-ID: <966762.28321.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.stangoodenough.com/?p=208
Betty Eddy
  
      
   


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090217/4a2b7cf6/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 23:46:06 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:46:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Obama approves aerospace system for Syria
Message-ID: <910051.17024.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Obama approves aerospace system for Syria

WASHINGTON ? President Barack Obama has authorized a Saudi project to supply aerospace systems to Syria, in what was seen as the suspension of U.S. sanctions.   

 Government sources said Obama directed the Commerce Department to approve the export of U.S. components for Syria's fleet of Boeing 747 aircraft. The sources said a Saudi defense company would supply and install the components in the aging Syrian dual-use aircraft.
The Commerce Department has not confirmed the approval. Boeing, however, acknowledged that Commerce approved an export license for Syria on Feb. 2.

The sources said the approval by Commerce marked a departure from nearly five years of sanctions by the outgoing Bush administration. Under the Syrian Accountability Act, Syria was to be denied all but food and humanitarian supplies from the United States. Bush aides said Syria had used passenger jets to ferry weapons from Iran to Hizbullah in Lebanon.

"This was an issue that has been on the back-burner for a long time," a government source said.
The decision would allow Boeing to overhaul two 747s for the state-owned Syrian Arab Airlines. Boeing has contracted its Saudi-based venture, Alsalam Aircraft Co., to conduct the overhaul.

Commerce, however, argued that the repair of the Boeing 747s would prevent air accidents. The sources said the department said this would come within the definition of U.S. humanitarian exports to Damascus.

Syria has reported several U.S. measures to improve relations under the Obama administration. On Feb. 15, Syrian ambassador to the United States, Imad Mustafa, said the U.S. Treasury Department approved the transfer of $500,000 to a Syrian charity.

Mustafa's announcement came on the eve of the visit by a U.S. Senate delegation to Damascus. The delegation was headed by Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman Sen. John Kerry, scheduled to meet President Bashir Assad.  




"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 23:54:11 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:54:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Islamic subversion alleged by speake
Message-ID: <590672.88744.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Islamic subversion alleged by speaker

Tuesday, February 17, 2009
By Brian Mosely

John Guandolo

A former FBI special agent told law enforcement and Homeland Security personnel that a network of Islamic organizations are working to incrementally implement Islamic law in the United States.
During a presentation at the Bedford County Emergency Management Agency, former FBI agent John Guandolo briefed members about groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood, which he claims is working with other Islamic groups to slowly implement Shariah, also known as Islamic law, which encompasses all areas of life.

Guandolo worked in the FBI since 1996, including nine years as a member of its SWAT team. After 9/11, he worked in the Bureau's Washington Field Office's Counterterrorism Division, developing expertise concerning Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood organizations and the Islamic movement in the U.S.

He now works with Stephen Coughlin, former Islamic Expert for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to advise leaders at the federal level and also brief local law enforcement about the Islamic threat at home.

Coughlin was fired from his position with the Joint Chiefs following a report revealing opposition to his work by officials within the office of Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, according to a Washington Times report dated Jan. 4, 2008.

Coughlin had run afoul of a key aide to England, Hasham Islam, who accused him of being a Christian zealot or extremist "with a pen," according to defense officials, the report states.

Muslim Brotherhood

Every major Muslim organization is controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, the former FBI agent said, which he said was formed to overthrow America and establish Islamic law.

"They're having great success of implementing Shariah law, I could give you a thousand examples," Guandolo said.

He said small concessions like installing foot baths, and colleges forced to have separate swimming times for Islamic men and women so not to offend Muslims, are other parts of the strategy.

But Guandolo said that federal leadership is reluctant to act against these Islamic organizations due to political correctness and the threats of lawsuits.

He said that Muslim groups will demand concessions on matters by saying, "You have to do this; you have to do this or I will be offended."

"The solution to this is you," Guandolo said. "If you are looking to DHS, the FBI and Congress to solve this ... you're going to be woefully disappointed."

He said that FBI agents in the field "are working good cases," but that the FBI leadership "is unwilling to do what the agents are asking them to do, which is to pony up and use some courage and start stepping on these people."

"This is political subversion, this is an insurgency in the United States," he said of the Islamic movement. "Insurgency is thwarted at the local level and the tip of the spear is local police."

Guandolo also said that the group CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, is actually a front for the terror group Hamas.

He also said that he was threatened with his job no less than three times by superiors in the FBI "that told me we were creating waves in the Muslim community."

Guandolo also said to watch what is happening in Great Britain, where Islamic radicalism has taken root. He noted that a member of the Danish Parliament was recently denied entry into the United Kingdom for fear that it would offend Muslims.

"They denied him access while at the same time, Islamic law is being instituted on the streets of Great Britain," he said.

Documentary shown

Also presented was a viewing of the documentary "Homegrown Jihad: The Terrorist Camps Around the U.S.", produced by the group Christian Action Network (CAN).

The group describes its purpose as "to protect America's religious and moral heritage through intensive lobbying efforts -- both in the nation's capital and at the grass roots level."

They claim that for the past two years, members have "been on location, deep inside hidden Islamic terrorist training compounds, scattered across the United States."

The terror group is called Jamaat ul-Fuqra, but is known in America as Muslims of America, which CAN alleges is a front organization for Pakistani Islamic cleric Sheikh Mubarak Ali Shah Gilani.

CAN asserts that one of these compounds is near Dover, in rural Stewart County. The site was the subject of a 2002 Tennessean article about the small Muslim community.

The compound is located on the south side of the Cumberland River, near Cumberland City, where the TVA Cumberland Fossil Plant is located, CAN says.

The sheriff of Stewart County was unavailable for comment about the compound. Personnel at that office referred the T-G to the Tennessee Fusion Center, a partnership of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the Tennessee Office of Homeland Security, which did not return inquiries by press time.

The documentary cites a Justice Department document from 2006 that exposed 35 compounds in the U.S., which the group alleges are used for terrorist training. The document was marked "Dissemination Restricted to Law Enforcement" and was not supposed to be released to the public.

CAN claims that all copies of Sheik Muburak Gilani's terrorist training video, "Soldiers of Allah," had been confiscated and sealed except for a copy the Christian organization obtained.

In the documentary, Gilani is shown saying "We are fighting to destroy the enemy. We are dealing with evil at its roots and its roots are America."

The alleged training video also shows men taught how to use AK-47s, rocket launchers, and machine guns, as well as how to kidnap and kill Americans, how to conduct sabotage and subversive operations, and instructions on the use mortars and explosives.

CAN also wants to have Jamaat ul-Fuqra placed on the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organization Watch List, which would shut down the camps.

Guandolo said that "cowardness" has prevented officials from taking action about the camps scattered across the country.

"We see at the local and state level, a lot of anger towards the federal government, and that anger is well placed."

Presenting the video was Wes Campbell, who works with the national intelligence community as chief of intelligence at Arnold Engineering Development Center, and Jonna Bianco with the Center for Security Policy.

EMA director Scott Johnson said in his introduction to the presentation that fundraising and training were important parts of the Islamic movement, not just attacks like 9/11.

"We like to provide awareness to our citizens ... we can't forget about this kind of stuff, it's a long term thing," Johnson said. "We don't want to be paranoid, we just want to be prudent."

"We can't ignore it, it's not going to go away."
"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 06:23:11 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 04:23:11 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Dealing with anti-Semtism
Message-ID: <855590370902180423o7e309f9alea5eaee2149b40ed@mail.gmail.com>

  [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
 Daily
Israel Report
Subscribe (free) <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe>
  Home <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
News<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> News
Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx>
Opinion<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/>
Judaism <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx>
Features<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9>
Blogs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
Admin<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/>
Radio <http://www.israelnationalradio.com/> | Live [image:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx>
TV <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/>
Jukebox<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx> Israel
Pics <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict>
Services<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful>
RSS <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS>
Advertise<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum>


A German-American who stood up %Date%
by by from "Back to Sanity" - Arutz 7 Analysts

(IsraelNN.com) Here's a nice article about how to deal with anti-Semitism.

By RAFAEL MEDOFF

The recent wave of anti-Semitic outbursts in various countries raises
important questions about how to respond effectively to such assaults. A
little-known episode that took place 65 years ago last week, involving a
German-American high school principal, may provide some guidance.

A photo provided by police shows the letters "SS" (standing for
Schutzstaffel, the security and paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party)
smeared on a gravestone at a Jewish cemetery in Czestochowa, Poland.

The latest outrages have included the planting of a bomb at the Lutzk
Progressive Jewish Congregation, in the Ukrainian city of Kiev; the mob
attack on the Tiferet Israel Synagogue in Caracas, Venezuela; an eightfold
increase in anti-Semitic attacks in England; and shouts of "Hamas! Hamas!
Jews to the gas!" at a rally in Amsterdam.

In the United States, incidents have ranged from celebrity outbursts such as
rock singer Courtney Love accusing "Jew loan officers and Jew private banks"
of stealing from her, to sixth graders in St. Louis staging a "Hit a Jew
Day" in their school. Curiously, their principal, Linda Lelonek, decided
that the students' action was not anti-Semitic, on the grounds that "you've
got remorse, you've got tears, you've got embarrassment. Not anti-Semitic
behavior at all."

Sixty-five years ago last week, a German-American high-school principal in
New York was confronted with anti-Semitism and responded very differently.
In February 1944, five students from Andrew Jackson High School in Queens
were caught painting anti-Semitic slogans in the nearby town of Queens
Village.

Principal Ralph Haller faced a dilemma. Technically, he had no jurisdiction
over what students did outside school grounds. But he understood the moral
importance of going beyond the letter of the law to find a way to punish the
attackers and send a message to potential anti-Semitic vandals everywhere.

Where there was a will, there was a way. Searching the rule books, Haller
found he was permitted to prevent a student from graduating if he or she
demonstrated "poor American citizenship." At a meeting of parents on
February 12, 1944, the principal declared: "I consider such [anti-Semitic]
activities totally in contradiction to everything that the America of today
or the America which we hope to have tomorrow stands for." Therefore, he
announced, his new policy would be to consider anti-Semitism by definition
as un-American, and he would block the graduation of any student involved in
anti-Semitic acts.

Haller noted that he had "counseled with many non-Jewish principals" as well
as assistant superintendent of schools William Hamm, and found them all in
agreement with his choice of punishment. Haller emphasized that as a
Protestant and a German-American, "I feel that I have the right and duty to
speak out on this issue."

Haller's action is all the more impressive when one recalls the extent of
anti-Semitism and pro-Nazi sentiment among his fellow German-Americans. Just
five years earlier, more than 20,000 Bund supporters had filled Madison
Square Garden for a pro-Hitler rally. And in nearby Suffolk County in the
late 1930s, tens of thousands of German-Americans each weekend flocked to
Camp Siegfried, a pro-Hitler summer retreat, for Nazi-style parades,
propaganda sessions and rounds of the "Horst Wessel Song" ("When Jewish
blood drips from the knife/Then will the German people prosper").

But Ralph Haller was cut from a different cloth. He stood apart from the
crowd - and stood up for justice by thinking outside the box.

Today, too, creative and courageous thinking is needed to combat the rising
tide of anti-Semitism.

School principals need to respond swiftly and forcefully to anti-Semitic
eruptions. The "Hit a Jew Day" students in St. Louis deserved more than
brief suspensions. And it was wrong for the principal to refrain from
penalizing other students who verbally taunted Jewish children and
encouraged the "hitters."
Principals should not make excuses for violent, bigoted students.

Celebrity anti-Semitism should not be laughed off. We all chuckle at the
foibles of public figures. But when their unorthodox behavior crosses the
line into expressions of bigotry, it is no longer harmless fun. The culprits
need to be ostracized.

World leaders need to speak out. The European Union Parliament, which has
been meeting in Strasbourg, has so far refrained from explicitly condemning
the recent wave of anti-Semitism. The EU's voice needs to be heard, loud and
clear.

Economic leverage should be used to combat anti-Semitism. Some regimes that
the US and Europe regard as friendly, such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, permit
the inclusion of anti-Semitic material in their government-controlled media
and school textbooks. Western economic aid to such regimes should be used to
exert pressure against anti-Semitism - just as international pressure forced
the United Arab Emirates in 2004 to shut down the Zayed Center, which
promoted anti-Semitism and Holocaust-denial.

Anti-Semitism can never be completely eliminated. But leaders who make an
extra effort to penalize offenders can help create an environment in which
hatred is regarded as unacceptable and haters are confined to the furthest
margins of society.

That's what Ralph Haller was trying to do in 1944. Let's learn from his
example.

*The writer is director of the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust
Studies, which focuses on issues related to America's response to the
Holocaust.*

*The article above appeared in the Jerusalem Post, on February 15, 2009 and
is reprinted by permission *
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/66ab7d1b/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 06:48:32 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 04:48:32 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Makes sense to me!
Message-ID: <855590370902180448x62a3b2e6ibed2626ae077802c@mail.gmail.com>

*Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Politicians vs IDF'*

Israel lost the war in Gaza: she agreed to Hamas' pre-war demands of opening
the crossings, accepted Hamas' empty promise to stop rocket launches, and
agreed to exchange more than a thousand Palestinian terrorist prisoners for
an
unfortunate IDF corporal. Was there an alternative? Most definitely.

Israel has lost the war when she signaled to common Palestinians that they
won't be targeted. Collateral damage amounted to less than 0.5% of the
population. The rest were safe and promptly paid compensations for destroyed
property - with Israeli tax transfers. Under such conditions, Gazans have no
reason to withdraw their support for Hamas. Most guerrillas escaped
unscathed,
too, even though IDF knew their, or at least their families' location.

The recipe for successful anti-guerrilla campaign is well-known: an
exceptional
violence. Anyone with the remotest connection to the guerrillas should be a
legitimate target, and not just for shooting but for much more horrible
modes of
death. Russians in Chechnya did not mind shooting at any aggressively
behaving
villager; some Chechens were thus prompted into the fighting, but most chose
to
change their expressions. Now, that is definitely neither nice nor legal,
but
efficient.

Counter-terror is just that, a terror against terrorists, or rather their
support base. In the long run, counter-terror offers no solution: modern
armies
can rarely sustain excessive cruelty over long periods. Popular expectations
of
cruelty increase while the cruelty decreases; terrorist supporters are
emboldened by the perceived lack of cruelty.

Whatever the Israeli Supreme Court says, Arab human shields and family
punishments are standard military measures and IDF can continue them without
moral damage. They are insufficient: short of burning the villages along
with
their inhabitants, punishment raids cannot succeed; in the current
situation,
Israel lacks that option. Short of the raids, occupation can do: exhaustive
police work, closure of all communal institutions including universities and
media, and expelling all Palestinian opinion-makers from teacher activists
up
would pacify the hostile territory. But the only long-term solution, and the
least painful one, is the one Machiavelli suggested to all conquerors: expel
and
disperse the hostile population. Only when the Palestinians go out could the
Jews go on with their lives.

Incidentally, the transfer would also benefit the Gazans. Million and a half
people cannot develop economically on a tiny strip of desert, certainly not
the
fourth-generation refugees who lack even the meager skills of the West Bank
Arabs. Foreign Arabs want that criminal mass to stay in Gaza rather than
inundate Muslim countries; not the least, foreign Arabs use Gazans to
trouble
Israel. Being expelled to Lebanon, Gazans can leave refugee camps and build
normal lives. Many would prefer to stay in refugee camps on UNRWA's lifetime
assistance, but the point is that in Lebanon, local government would police
the
camps with most illiberal means. Just like it had bombarded a refugee camp
with
artillery to quench Fatah al Islam insurrection, Lebanese army will do to
other
Palestinian terrorists: in no small part because Lebanese, like other Arabs,
hate Palestinians, but also to avoid Israeli retaliation against Lebanon for
Palestinian attacks.

The seemingly cruel measures are often the kindest.

You can leave a comment at
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/politicians-vs-idf.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/b3bc4e85/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb 18 07:04:36 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:04:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin><COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl><855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <007501c991c9$74c71d30$0400a8c0@marvin>

Now Pat??  everyone knows you can?t take guns on airplanes.    We?ll find them once we get home!

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

Thank goodness it's not true!  I tried to check it on Snopes before replying, but got nothing.  You would think that Snopes would have it.  Maybe I didn?t enter it correctly.

 

Really appreciate your telling us, Hanoch.  (And now I guess we'll have to unpack all the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

Pat

 

From: Hanoch Young <mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:31 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

Hey everyone - 

 

      This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is NOT true, it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am no fan of the British government, but this story is NOT accurate.
 

        Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.

                           Hanoch

2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!  

 

From: mhyde <mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net>  

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

Pat

 

I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's and bullets,  while we pack!

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]

 

This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it" is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true nonetheless.  

 

We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.

 

Avigail/Pat

   

From: Joe <mailto:jid at westnet.com.au>  Indomenico 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !

 

Shalom Chaverim,




The English translation is as the following Hebrew









????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ???? 

????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ????? ????? ????  ? ???????? ???????? , ??????? ?? ???? ????? . 

??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? . 

???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? . 

??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20 ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? , ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ! 

????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ? ' ???? ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? . 

??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -40 ?????? ????? ??? ????? .

?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? . 

??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ?? ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!! 

Disgrace for England ! 

This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust.

That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.

It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.

This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis.

Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .

This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.

Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well.

Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts.

 

 

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

  _____  

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/46033610/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 07:29:14 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:29:14 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Even chimps can learn, right?
Message-ID: <855590370902180529h2000c4beqfd65a9b6c1cc46a3@mail.gmail.com>

 President Peres admits Gaza disengagement was a mistake

February 18, 2009, 2:21 PM (GMT+02:00)
[image: President Shimon Peres repents]

President Shimon Peres repents

As he began consultations for the formation of Israel's post-election
cabinet Wednesday, Feb. 18, President Shimon Peres made an extraordinary
statement. Addressing the Presidents Conference, hee admitted for the first
time that Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005 was
a mistake "which will not be repeated." His decision regarding the future
composition would therefore be dictated by its policies, he said.

Peres, who was vice premier in the government headed by Ariel Sharon which
ordered the 2005 evacuation of the Gaza Strip, confessed for the first time
that he was wrong to support it. Things should have been differently, he
said.

(Israeli forces forcibly evicted 8,500 Israelis living in the Gaza
communities - many of whom remain homeless to this day - and opened the way
for Hamas' takeover.)

Peres said: "My problem is less whom to entrust with the role of prime
minister but rather the candidate's policies. The world is undergoing new
situations and the new government must adjust its policies accordingly. I do
not disqualify any Israeli who was duly elected."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/f7e4ea97/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb 18 07:46:04 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:46:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The
	SocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS2CDA7833DBD8C83DC92E4BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com><021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<COL119-DS2CDA7833DBD8C83DC92E4BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008501c991cf$3fe3eed0$0400a8c0@marvin>

 

Sent it,  Pat.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The
SocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

I can't open it.  I tried before leaving for work this morning.  My son is
flying, so I can't get him to put whatever it is I need on my computer so
that I can open it.  If anyone can send it already opened, I'd appreciate
it.  It DOES look very interesting, Patty.  Thank you for sending it!

 

Pat

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social
ImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

Very interesting paper Patty.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>:
-------------- 

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607
<http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers>
&context=infopapers

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/7aaba5d3/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 07:53:15 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:53:15 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] You don't always get what you vote for
Message-ID: <855590370902180553w40947283uf0e041d5d56c1049@mail.gmail.com>

Extremely insightful..take the time to listen....
                           *   Hanoch*
Tuesday, 17 February 2009 Emuna Update: You don't get what you vote
for<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/02/emuna-update-you-dont-get-what-you-vote-for.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/639ec902/attachment.html 

From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 08:03:45 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:03:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] U.S. intelligence report projects possible collapse of
	Palestinian Authority
Message-ID: <814229.50503.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

U.S. intelligence report projects possible collapse of Palestinian Authority

WASHINGTON ? The U.S. intelligence community has raised the prospect of the collapse of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.   ShareThis
 
The report, titled "Annual Threat Assessment of the Intelligence Community," said Hamas, in the aftermath of its war with Israel in early 2009, has intensified the threat to the PA.

The report warned that both Fatah and the PA were split over such issues as a successor to chairman Mahmoud Abbas as well as government reforms. The report said Hamas planned to exploit the divisions within Fatah and could challenge the PA over the next year.

"Disagreement between Fatah and Hamas about a range of issues such as the timing of national elections and formation of a unity government could lead Hamas to challenge the legitimacy of Abbas's government and will remain obstacles to Fatah-Hamas reconciliation," the report said.

	
The PA has also been threatened by the increasing divisions within the ruling Fatah movement in the West Bank. The report said the battle between Fatah's old guard and younger members has blocked plans to convene the movement. Abbas's term had been scheduled to expire in January 2009.

"These internal conflicts threaten to fracture the party and damage its prospects in the run-up to PA presidential and legislative elections in 2009 or early 2010," the report said. "There is no consensus among Fatah officials regarding a replacement for President Abbas, who has not groomed a successor, and no potential leader has gained Fatah's full support."

The Hamas threat has been enhanced by Iranian financing, training and weapons since 2006.

"Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are engaged in an intense competition, with both sides seeking to emerge from the conflict in a stronger political position, but relations between the two organizations have been further embittered by the crisis," the report said.  



"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK--


      


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 08:10:44 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:10:44 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
In-Reply-To: <007501c991c9$74c71d30$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au>
	<COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<004f01c9914c$276bad80$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<COL119-DS36521ED8563F27130E7F4BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<855590370902171531w390080b2u8631a1d3a720e2da@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS18F6F0B567F4724FAF0BFEBAB40@phx.gbl>
	<007501c991c9$74c71d30$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <855590370902180610v3ef912fbmfb94c5d7468b3f81@mail.gmail.com>

But, some do try to send them along with their household goods in a shipping
container....which is sent by boat.

                     * Hanoch
*
2009/2/18 mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>

>  Now Pat??  everyone knows you can't take guns on airplanes.    We'll find
> them once we get home!
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patricia Robbins
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 PM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>
>
> Thank goodness it's not true!  I tried to check it on Snopes before
> replying, but got nothing.  You would think that Snopes would have it.
> Maybe I didn't enter it correctly.
>
>
>
> Really appreciate your telling us, Hanoch.  (And now I guess we'll have to
> unpack all the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:31 PM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>
>
> Hey everyone -
>
>
>
>       This story about the UK removing the Holocaust curriculum is *NOT *true,
> it has been circulating around the Internet since 2007, and is BOGUS.  I am
> no fan of the British government, but this story is *NOT accurate.**
> *
>
>         Oh, one other thing - although we may need guns and ammo now (and
> later), you can't bring that into Israel without a special permit...sorry.
>
>                            *Hanoch*
>
> 2009/2/17 Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>
> Yep, I think so, Marvin..........but I wish it wasn't so!
>
>
>
> *From:* mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:07 PM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> I think your ideal of joining Judah in the land is gonna soon become
> necessary for survival.     Do you think we should start investing in Gun's
> and bullets,  while we pack!
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patricia Robbins
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:31 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !]
>
>
>
> This is madness!  If countries bow to Islam, they also bow to the
> murderous intents and hatreds of Islam!  How can Jews and Ephraimites remain
> in their nations of birth if those nations succumb to Arab pressure and
> deny the Holocaust?  The adage that "to deny history dooms one to repeat it"
> is becoming nothing more than clich? to many, but remains true
> nonetheless.
>
>
>
> We MUST AWAKEN from the Valley of Dry Bones (in which our idolatries caused
> us to lie down), gather ourselves together, and join Judah in the Land.
>
>
>
> Avigail/Pat
>
>
>
> *From:* Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 AM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] [Fwd: FW: Disgrace for England !
>
>
>
> *Shalom Chaverim,
> *
>
> *The English translation is as the following Hebrew*
>
> *????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ????*
>
> ????? ??????? , ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? , ?????
> ????? ????  ? *???????? ???????? *, ??????? ?? ???? ????? .
>
> ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? , ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???
> ??????? ?????? ????? .
>
> ???? ???? ? -60 ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? .
>
> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? 6 ????? ?????? , 20
> ?????? ????? , 10 ?????? ?????? , 1900 ????? ??????? , ?????? , ????? ,
> ????? , ?????? ????? , ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? !
>
> ????? , ???? ??? ??? , ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? , ??????? ?? ????? ?
> ' *????* ', ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? .
>
> ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ? -*40 ?????? *????? ??? ????? .
>
> ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? , ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? .
>
> ??? , ???? ?? ??????? ? -10 ????? ?? ???? , ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? . ??
> ????? ?? ?????? , ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????!!!
>
> *Disgrace for England !** *
>
> This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from
> the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that
> denies the holocaust.
>
> That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of
> how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism.
>
> It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe.
>
> This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6
> million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic
> priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and
> humiliated by the Nazis.
>
> Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying
> the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the
> world never forgets .
>
> This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world.
>
> Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in
> the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the
> world so others may understand and help as well.
>
> Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please
> do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you
> for your efforts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/c2ef4ac8/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 08:36:07 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:36:07 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Mishpatim: Trust in G-d vs. Self-Reliance
Message-ID: <855590370902180636je5ffd65o278618e1777739ab@mail.gmail.com>

  Rav Kook on the Torah Portion <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/>

Mishpatim <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/MISHPA62.htm>

*Trust in God vs. Self-Reliance*




------------------------------
Gold from the Land of Israel <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/book-gold.htm>
368 pages, hardcover, online price: $20.50

*"This is the best English-language introduction to the thought of Rav
Kook!"*
- Rabbi Dovid Sears
------------------------------
      *Mishpatim: Trust in God vs. Self-Reliance*

The Talmud [*Berachot* 10b] tells a puzzling story about the righteous king
Hezekiah. It is related that the king secreted away the medical books of his
day. Why? King Hezekiah felt that the people relied too heavily on the
prescriptions described in those texts, and did not pray to God to heal
them.

Surprisingly, the Sages approved of King Hezekiah's action. Such an approach
would appear to contradict another Talmudic ruling. The Torah says one who
injures his neighbor must "provide for his complete healing" [Ex. 21:19].
The Talmud [Baba Kama 85a] deducts from here that the Torah granted doctors
permission to heal. Even with natural diseases, we do not say, 'Since God
made him ill, it is up to God to heal him,' but do our best to heal him.

Which is the correct attitude? Should we rely on doctors and medical books,
or place our trust only in God and prayer?

There is in fact a larger question at stake. When are we expected to do our
utmost to remedy the situation ourselves, and when should we rely on God's
help?

*Two Forms of Bitachon *

Rav Kook explained that there are two forms of *bitachon*, reliance on God.
There is the normative level of trust, that God will assist us in our
efforts to help ourselves. And there is the simple trust in God that He will
perform a miracle, when appropriate.

Regarding the community as a whole, we find apparent contradictions in the
Torah's expectations. Sometimes we are expected to make every possible
effort to succeed, as in the battle of HaAi [Joshua 8]. On other occasions,
human effort was considered a demonstration of lack of faith, as when God
instructed Gideon not to send too many soldiers to fight, "*Lest Israel
should proudly say 'My own hand saved me'*" [Judges 7:2]. Why did God limit
Gideon's military efforts, but not Joshua's in the capture of HaAi?

The answer is that the spiritual level of the people determines what level
of *bitachon* is appropriate. When we are able to recognize God's hand in
the natural course of events, when we are aware that God is the source of
our strength and skill - "*Remember the Lord your God, for it is He Who
gives you strength to succeed*" [Deut. 8:18] - then God is more clearly
revealed when He supplies our needs within the framework of the natural
world. In this situation, we are expected to utilize all of our energy and
knowledge and talents, and recognize divine assistance in our efforts. This
reflects the spiritual level of the people in the time of Joshua.

On the other hand, there are times when the people are incapable of seeing
God's help in natural events, and they attribute any success solely to their
own efforts and skills. They are likely to claim, 'My own hand saved me.' In
this case, only miraculous intervention will enable the people to recognize
God's hand - especially when the Jewish nation was young, miracles were
needed to bring them to this awareness.

*Educating the People*

Consider the methods by which parents provide for their children. When a
child is young, the parent feeds the child directly. If the child is very
small, the parent will even put the food right in his mouth. As the child
grows older, he learns to become more independent and take care of his own
needs. Parental care at this stage is more indirect, by supplying him with
the wherewithal - the knowledge, skills, and training - to provide for
himself. The grown child does not wish to be forever dependent on his
parent. He wants to succeed by merit of his own talents and efforts, based
on the training and tools that his parents provided him.

So too, when the Jewish people was in its infancy, miracles served to
instill a fundamental recognition and trust in God. In the time of Gideon,
the people's faith had lapsed, and needed strengthening. Similarly, in the
time of King Hezekiah, the king realized that the corrupt reign of Ahaz had
caused the people to forget God and His Torah. He calculated that the
spiritual gain through prayer outweighed the scientific loss due to hiding
the medical texts.

But when faith and trust in God are strong, it is preferable that we utilize
our own energies and talents, and recognize God's hand within the natural
universe. The enlightened viewpoint calls out, "*Lift up your eyes on high
and see: Who created these?*" [Isaiah 40:26]. So it was when Joshua
conquered the city of HaAi. After forty years of constant miracles in the
desert, the people were already thoroughly imbued with trust in God. It was
appropriate that they use their own resources of cunning and courage to
ambush the fighters and destroy the city.

What about the future redemption of the Jewish people? It may occur with
great miracles, like the redemption from Egypt; or it may begin with natural
events, as implied by several statements of the Sages that the redemption
will progress gradually. It all depends on the level of our faith in God. It
is certainly integral to our national pride that we take an active role in
rebuilding the House of Israel.

[*Gold from the Land of Israel*
<http://www.ravkooktorah.org/book-gold.htm>pp. 136-138. Adapted from
*Ein Eyah* vol. I, p. 57]

   Rav Kook on the Net: RavKookTorah.org <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/>
This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr <http://www.ravkook.co.nr/>
This Dvar Torah: MISHPA62.htm <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/MISHPA62.htm>
To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook
List<RavKookList at gmail.com>

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List"
group.
To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List

Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com

http://ravkooktorah.org   - Rav A.I. Kook on the Weekly Parasha
http://ravkook.co.nr     - This week's dvar Torah
http://gold-israel.co.nr - Order your copy of "Gold from the Land of Israel"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/ebdb7be8/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Feb 18 08:49:12 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:49:12 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social
	Implications	ofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>	<039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com>
	<021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <04ab01c991d8$11cf94f0$356ebed0$@com>

Hey John, how are you guys doing?

 

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social Implications ofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

Very interesting paper Patty.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607 <http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers> &context=infopapers

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/ab2014a1/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb 18 09:05:35 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:05:35 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The
	SocialImplications	ofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <04ab01c991d8$11cf94f0$356ebed0$@com>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>	<039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com><021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<04ab01c991d8$11cf94f0$356ebed0$@com>
Message-ID: <021820091505.4516.499C23BF00098E68000011A422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

We're doing very well Patty.  The house is on the market, my Dodge Charger is on the market.  Now all we need is buyers.  Otherwise things are pretty much routine.

How are you guys.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hey John, how are you guys doing?
 
patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social Implications ofHumancentric Chip Implants 
 
Very interesting paper Patty.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 
http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/8890e694/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 09:27:47 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 07:27:47 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Shimon & friend
In-Reply-To: <c1d.5aa2e496.36cd81fc@aol.com>
References: <c1d.5aa2e496.36cd81fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902180727s3c589281n9172e0ccef1def7b@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <YoungBarzel at aol.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:23 AM
Subject: Fwd: Shimon & friend
To: YoungBarzel at gmail.com





 ------------------------------
From: SamsonsGym
To: EH1836, parler10 at yahoo.com, FarleyW, YoungBarzel, liamdaj at yahoo.com,
writeatlas, korinb at msn.com, Jdkatz93, dayan at malchut-israel.org,
pauleid at netvision.net.il, DEC 1 PROD
Sent: 2/18/2009 6:46:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
Subj: Shimon & friend

 Peres admits Disengagement was mistake (Jerusalem Post)
Peres' parents admit Shimon was a mistake

------------------------------
*A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=febemailfooterNO62>
*


------------------------------
Need a job? Find an employment agency near
you<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003>
.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/6a3340a8/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 23546 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/6a3340a8/attachment.jpe 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Feb 18 10:11:43 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:11:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Shimon & friend
In-Reply-To: <855590370902180727s3c589281n9172e0ccef1def7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1d.5aa2e496.36cd81fc@aol.com>
	<855590370902180727s3c589281n9172e0ccef1def7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c991e3$98a5b490$0400a8c0@marvin>

That's funny....  

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Shimon & friend

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <YoungBarzel at aol.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:23 AM
Subject: Fwd: Shimon & friend
To: YoungBarzel at gmail.com



 

 


  _____  


From: SamsonsGym
To: EH1836, parler10 at yahoo.com, FarleyW, YoungBarzel, liamdaj at yahoo.com,
writeatlas, korinb at msn.com, Jdkatz93, dayan at malchut-israel.org,
pauleid at netvision.net.il, DEC 1 PROD
Sent: 2/18/2009 6:46:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
Subj: Shimon & friend

 



Peres admits Disengagement was mistake (Jerusalem Post)

Peres' parents admit Shimon was a mistake

 


  _____  


A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt
p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=feb
emailfooterNO62>  yours in just 2 easy steps!

 

  _____  

Need a job? Find an employment agency near you
<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusye
lp00000003> .

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/6355de63/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 23546 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/6355de63/attachment.jpe 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Feb 18 11:27:19 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:27:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper:
	The	SocialImplications	ofHumancentric Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <021820091505.4516.499C23BF00098E68000011A422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl>	<039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com><021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<04ab01c991d8$11cf94f0$356ebed0$@com>
	<021820091505.4516.499C23BF00098E68000011A422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <04da01c991ee$29d61630$7d824290$@com>

Hey John, we are all fine here, Dave is away and I am doing a major overhaul of the office J

 

Hoping to get back to the music soon. Did Carin make any headway with the artwork? I know you guys have been very busy.

 

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:06 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The SocialImplications ofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

We're doing very well Patty.  The house is on the market, my Dodge Charger is on the market.  Now all we need is buyers.  Otherwise things are pretty much routine.

 

How are you guys.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

Hey John, how are you guys doing?

 

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social Implications ofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

Very interesting paper Patty.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607 <http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers> &context=infopapers

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/9f60f11b/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 12:18:00 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:18:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: TheSocialImplicationsofHumancentric
	Chip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <008501c991cf$3fe3eed0$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com><021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><COL119-DS2CDA7833DBD8C83DC92E4BAB40@phx.gbl>
	<008501c991cf$3fe3eed0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS2236F3FFAF9137523A65E2BAB50@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Marvin, but it still didn't get here.  I looked for another email from you that had it , but there isn't one.  Don't go to anymore trouble, please.   I'll get my son to figure out what is wrong when he gets back tomorrow.    Pat 




From: mhyde 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:46 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: TheSocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 


 

Sent it,  Pat.

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The SocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

I can't open it.  I tried before leaving for work this morning.  My son is flying, so I can't get him to put whatever it is I need on my computer so that I can open it.  If anyone can send it already opened, I'd appreciate it.  It DOES look very interesting, Patty.  Thank you for sending it!

 

Pat

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social ImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

Very interesting paper Patty.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

  -------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

  http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 
_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/d179d7d4/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 12:20:27 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:20:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper:
	TheSocialImplicationsofHumancentricChip Implants 
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS2236F3FFAF9137523A65E2BAB50@phx.gbl>
References: <499AB20D.7030707@westnet.com.au><COL119-DS8936FDED0EF7A681E8C16BAB40@phx.gbl><039b01c9911c$1f62a4c0$5e27ee40$@com><021720092320.18509.499B462B0008C7C40000484D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><COL119-DS2CDA7833DBD8C83DC92E4BAB40@phx.gbl><008501c991cf$3fe3eed0$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<COL119-DS2236F3FFAF9137523A65E2BAB50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS62711E374A454FEE4AF93BAB50@phx.gbl>

Whoops!!!!  Cross out that last email!!!!  I just found it!  THANK YOU SO MUCH MARVIN!!!

Pat


From: Patricia Robbins 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: TheSocialImplicationsofHumancentricChip Implants 


Thank you, Marvin, but it still didn't get here.  I looked for another email from you that had it , but there isn't one.  Don't go to anymore trouble, please.   I'll get my son to figure out what is wrong when he gets back tomorrow.    Pat 




From: mhyde 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:46 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: TheSocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 


 

Sent it,  Pat.

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The SocialImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

I can't open it.  I tried before leaving for work this morning.  My son is flying, so I can't get him to put whatever it is I need on my computer so that I can open it.  If anyone can send it already opened, I'd appreciate it.  It DOES look very interesting, Patty.  Thank you for sending it!

 

Pat

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:20 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Interesting Paper: The Social ImplicationsofHumancentric Chip Implants 

 

Very interesting paper Patty.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

  -------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

  http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1607&context=infopapers

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 
_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/1cdcd25c/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Feb 18 17:51:29 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:51:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS25B615CC1F791E723BE534BAB40@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902171538t4e7e914bh433184a4d8a4ba19@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS25B615CC1F791E723BE534BAB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7B6F860D19F547609D651B38CD7C3A2D@bettylaptop>

Yep, me too!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'

 

I'm a Bad Jew too!   Thanks, Hanoch.   Pat

 

From: Hanoch Young <mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:38 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] 'Why I am a Bad Jew'

 

Sometimes I post articles that I find interesting, but don't necessarily
agree with.  Other times I post certain articles to see what reaction they
generate (or don't).  But, I totally relate to this article....

                    Hanoch

 


"Why I am a Bad Jew" by Dr. Kaminski




This was written by Rami Kaminski, MD, founder and
director of the Institute for Integrative Psychiatry in New York City.
 
Why I Am a Bad Jew
 
For centuries, we lived in Berdichev. In the brutal Ukrainian winter of
1941, SS soldiers arrived there and rounded up eighty-seven members of
my family - babies, young adults, octogenarians - stripped them naked,
marched them to a nearby ditch, and executed them. Their lifeless bodies
fell silently into a mass grave.
 
Like most Jews in Europe, my family "cooperated" with the Final
Solution. They did not resist or fight back. Six million Jews were
slaughtered in a period of four years. They received little sympathy
while they were still alive and hunted down like animals. There was no
public outcry because the Holocaust fit the world's narrative for Jews
during the past 2000 years: a people destined to be persecuted and
slaughtered.
 
During their two millennia in the Diaspora, Jews were not known to
resist. There are few recorded instances in which Jews turned against
their host nations or retaliated against their murderers. Instead, the
survivors - if there were any - were expelled or left for another place.
The murdered were regarded as "good" Jews They accepted their fate
helplessly, without resistance.
This narrative of the Jews has played out on the historical stage with
boring monotony: Jews get killed because they are Jews. Nothing novel
about it. After the Holocaust, however, the world, disgusted by this
particularly ghoulish period of history, accorded some sympathy for the
Jews.
 
Media commentary about the ongoing Gaza War reveals the world has now
reverted to its pre-Holocaust perspective. Today, the only good Jew is a
powerless Jew willing to become a dead one. The Zionist Revolution is to
blame. It changed everything. Jews re-created their own country. The
Arabs attacked the new Jewish state the day after independence and
promised to complete Hitler's genocide. In succeeding decades, the Arabs
attacked again and again. Strangely, the Jews, many of them refugees
from Arab nations, adopted a surprising, new tactic: they fought back.
 
With Zionism, the Jews stubbornly refused to follow the centuries-old
script. They refuse to be killed without resistance. As a result, the
world has become increasingly enraged at their impertinence.
 
The recent events in Gaza and Mumbai make this plain. In 2005, Israel
eliminated all Jewish presence in Gaza making it "Judenrein," and handed
it over to the Palestinians. Left behind were synagogues and thriving
green houses. The Arabs looted and destroyed them literally the day
after Israel's withdrawal was complete. Where these structures once
stood, the Palestinians built military bases and installed rocket
launchers to shell Israeli civilians. To date, some 7,000 missiles have
fallen on Israeli cities and towns, killing and maiming dozens, and
sowing widespread terror. Medical studies reveal nearly all Jewish
children in the communities bordering Gaza suffer from serious,
trauma-induced illness.
 
The Gazan Palestinians then elected Hamas to lead them. Hamas proceeded
to kill or imprison their political rivals, and its leaders, true to the
Hamas charter, were unabashed in clearly stating their aims: they will
not stop until they achieve their Final Solution, kill all the Jews,
take over the land of Israel, and establish a theocracy governed by
Islamic law.
 
As killing Jews for being Jews has been a national sport for centuries,
Islamic militants are justified in believing they are merely fulfilling
historical tradition in Argentina, India and Gaza. Surely the Jews in
Mumbai did not occupy Gaza. They were tortured and killed just for being
Jews. And predictably, in the eyes of the world, they immediately became
good Jews, just like my murdered family in Bertishev.
 
Good Jews would wait until Hamas has weapons enabling its members to
achieve their ultimate goal of absolute mass murder. Those enraged by
Israel's defensive military action insist Hamas uses only "crude"
rockets, as if Qassams were BB guns, and military inferiority were
somehow equivalent with moral superiority. In fact, Hamas now has
Iranian-supplied Grad missiles which have landed on Be'er Sheva and the
outskirts of Tel Aviv.
 
Westerners have had only sporadic exposure to the indiscriminant killing
in the name of "holy war" which Israel has lived with for years.
Memories of 9-11, Madrid, and London have dimmed. This is not because
the Islamic militants made a careful choice of weapons. They simply have
not yet acquired nuclear bombs. Once they do, the West will develop a
less detached view about the Islamists' professed intentions for the
"infidels."
 
The only enlightened people in the civilized world who actually get it
are the Israelis. They've not had time for detached philosophical
ponderings. They've been too busy confronting the reality of Islamic
fundamentalism.
 
Soon, Iran will have nuclear weapons. It will give them to Hezbollah and
Hamas. Today, Jews must take a position: either be "good" Jews willing
to be slaughtered without resistance, or be "bad" Jews who defend
themselves at the cost of being pariahs of our enlightened world. Good
Jews would wait for another six million to be murdered, and pick up to
leave for another country to start the cycle again. The bad ones refuse
to go calmly into the ditch.
 
I confess: I'm a bad Jew.
 
Rami Kaminski, MD, is Director and Founder of the Institute for
Integrative Psychiatry in New York, a not-for-profit organization aimed
at evaluating current psychiatric services and how they integrate with
medicine, such as the mutual effects between medical and psychiatric
conditions. Prior to that, Dr. Kaminkski was the Commissioner's Liaison
to Families and Community and Medical Director of Operations at the New
York State Office of Mental Health. Dr. Kaminski also holds an academic
position as Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Columbia University. He
earned recognition in 1990 from Mt. Sinai Hospital as Physician of the
Year, and received the Exemplary Psychiatrist Awards from the National
Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Dr. Kaminski's research explores
neuropsychiatric aspects of brain disorders, such as Alzheimer and
Parkinson's disease and movement disorders, as well as
psychopharmacology of schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. He
was for many years Director of The Schizophrenia research Unit at Mount
Sinai Hospital in NYC. Dr. Kaminiski also served as the Medical Director
of the PMHP and consultant to the committee in charge of developing the
Special Needs Program.
--------------------
 
 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/26655d61/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:10:50 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:10:50 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] There WILL be a reckoning for those that destroyed Gush
	Katif...
Message-ID: <855590370902181710s2d1a5475q43db45ae51978cef@mail.gmail.com>

There WILL be a day of reckoning for those responsible for destroying Gush
Katif...

Click here: YouTube - Yesh Din V'Yesh Dayan - English
Subtitles<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2V-BAnlBJk>

                    *   Hanoch*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/3c92a12a/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 20:20:21 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:20:21 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Homegrown Jihad
Message-ID: <855590370902181820j4954998bx7ee8d1c0b7c57f27@mail.gmail.com>

Only in America...
                *Hanoch*
Click here: Breaking News | Latest News | Current News -
FOXNews.com<http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3625333&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/65f32ad8/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 20:45:22 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Pesach Movie?
Message-ID: <872830.93173.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Just wondering if anyone could recommend a good movie about Pesach...

Thanks,
Tracy


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/027c576d/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:12:12 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:12:12 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Pesach Movie?
In-Reply-To: <872830.93173.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <872830.93173.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902181912p5da13864s2122568200a46b14@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Tracy,

    I've been a fan of the "Prince of Egypt," although it's FAR from being a
documentary.  :-)
I just feel that "The Ten Commandments" is very, very dated.

     Take care bro,
            *  Hanoch
*
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>  Just wondering if anyone could recommend a good movie about Pesach...
>
> Thanks,
> Tracy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/c603ae6a/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:23:31 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:23:31 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Message-ID: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
<wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090218/77bf07af/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb 18 21:45:09 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:45:09 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

These points;

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009


In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/b5ab071f/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 06:32:38 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 04:32:38 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An open letter to the Prime Minister
Message-ID: <855590370902190432s5e1ff0d3yfe7825249fd2a383@mail.gmail.com>

An open letter to the prime minister
February 19, 2009
Stewart Weiss, THE JERUSALEM POST

Dear Prime Minister Olmert,

On September 30, 2002, our eldest son Ari, a member of the Sayeret Nahal
anti-terrorist unit, was killed in battle in a raid on Hamas headquarters in
Nablus. You were out of the country during the shiva, arriving only the day
after. You phoned us from the airport and asked if you could visit us in
Ra'anana; it was a visit that made a deep impression upon us, and convinced
us that you were a decent, compassionate person.

Since that day, come what may - through my writing a column in The Jerusalem
Post and speaking often about life in Israel all over the Diaspora - I have
never uttered a negative word about you in your role as PM. In fact, we have
cautioned many around us to reserve judgement and be dan l'kaf z'chut (give
the benefit of the doubt) when it comes to you.

But now we are on the brink of what I fear will be a catastrophic moment in
Israeli - and Jewish - history. The freeing of hundreds of terrorist
murderers - in particular, the two Barghouti butchers who, between them,
murdered hundreds of pure Jewish souls and perpetrated the terror massacres
at Sbarro, Moment Cafe and the Park Hotel - will be a terrible blow to law
and order in Israel, setting a precedent that will certainly result in many,
many more tragedies.

WE APPRECIATE the pressure on you to free Gilad Schalit. It must be
enormous. But know that there is another side to this issue, as well.

That is the deep feelings of thousands of Israeli family members who paid
the ultimate price to the state, who gave up their loved ones in the course
of our struggle. To free these Palestinian murderers with so much of our
blood on their hands would do more than just insult and demoralize the
bereaved families; it would destroy us, and cause us to lose all faith in
our country and its leaders.

Everyone - including the Schalit family - agrees that there are prices too
high to pay to secure Gilad's release. Would we give Hamas a nuclear weapon
if they asked for one? Would we free Yigal Amir? Would we turn over one of
your children - or that of any MK - to be held captive or murdered as the
cost of Gilad's freedom? Setting hundreds of bloodthirsty killers loose on
the Israeli public - where they, without a shadow of a doubt, will kill time
and time again - is also a price far too high to pay.

I am certain that the Israeli public will support you if you hold firm on
what has always been a non-negotiable principle of Israel throughout the
years - those who murder Israelis will be held accountable. I am sure that
America will also back you; after all, did the United States free the
killers of Robert Kennedy or Martin Luther King, or mass-murderers John
Wayne Gacy or Charles Manson, or do they remain in jail where they belong
and as the public demands, now 30, 40 years after their crime?

I am sure you are concerned for your legacy. Please, let that legacy be one
of principle, justice and courage, a legacy that holds sacred the sanctity
of life and the refusal to be blackmailed by those who destroy life. Our son
died at the hands of terrorists; were they, God forbid, to be released, it
would be a moment of horror no less than the day Ari died.

We already have one yahrtzeit for Ari. Please, we implore you, do not bring
another one upon us.

Respectfully, Rabbi Stewart and Susie Weiss


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
<wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/d182a166/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 07:27:52 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:27:52 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>

Hey John,

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will
allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It *should *have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among *themselves *as to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even *HEARD *of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, *the *religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going *among themselves *-
not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

            *    Hanoch*



On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

>  I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
>
> These points;
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
>
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
> a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
>
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
>
>
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
> existing Knesset.
>
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
>
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
>
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
>
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
> west of the Jordan River.
>
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
> West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going
> on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
> Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of
> Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes
> the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
>
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its
> Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
>
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
>
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
>
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
>
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
> Mount.
>
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
>
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
> on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
>
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
>
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
>
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
> their curriculum.
>
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
>
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
>
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
>
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
> 16, 2009.
>
>
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> <wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/824256aa/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 08:35:59 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:35:59 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Hanoch,

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Hey John,

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

                Hanoch




On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

These points;

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 



The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009


In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace??precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview??which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered??and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-??-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism??the precondition of peace??unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years??as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies??and this includes its own Arab citizens??is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs??depicted in their maps??is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/f050b6a7/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 08:56:08 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:56:08 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <855590370902190656h63ce1138m2a597f4dba820c19@mail.gmail.com>

Hey John,

     I feel the SAME way about 'labels.'  That's why I love the expression,
"I'm not a noun in search of an adjective..."  :-)  Have a great day!

            * Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:35 AM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

>  Hey Hanoch,
>
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
> very reason.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>
> Hey John,
>
>       I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
>
>        Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will
> allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It *should *have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to
> Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in
> accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the
> aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare
> someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for
> having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather
> clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union'
> provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
>
>         This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
>
>         Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
>
>         It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
>
>         But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
>
>         Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among *themselves *as
> to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
> group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even *HEARD *of the
> United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
> 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to
> decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli
> citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a
> Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah,
> etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be
> no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
> as they are.
>
>         In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, *the *religion
> is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
> of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't
> mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among
> each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
> not-too-distant future....
>
>         John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
> - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going *among themselves *-
> not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
>
>         And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
>
>           B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
>
>             *    Hanoch*
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>  I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
>> Israelites or Epraimites.
>>
>> These points;
>>
>> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
>> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
>> all other principles are subordinate.
>>
>> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
>> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
>> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>>
>> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
>> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
>> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
>> (I'm not talking about the US government).
>>
>> --
>> John C.
>>
>> "Be excellent to each other!"
>> Bill and Ted
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
>> --------------
>>
>> The Eidelberg Plan:
>> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
>> February 16, 2009
>>
>> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
>> a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
>> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
>> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
>> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
>> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
>> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>>
>> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
>> solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
>> Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in
>> the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their
>> society in a peaceful way."
>>
>> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
>> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
>> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
>> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
>> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
>> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
>> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
>> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
>> of what I propose:
>>
>>
>> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
>> law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two
>> assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate
>> objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's
>> compare it with the existing Knesset.
>>
>> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
>> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
>> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
>> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
>> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
>> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
>> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
>> bureaucracy.
>>
>> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
>> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
>> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>>
>> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
>> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
>> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
>> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
>> systems currently used by the Court.
>>
>> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
>> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
>> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
>> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
>> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
>>
>> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
>> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
>> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
>> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
>> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
>> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
>> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
>> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
>> west of the Jordan River.
>>
>> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.
>> Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets
>> their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
>> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
>> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
>> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>>
>> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
>> West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going
>> on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
>> Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of
>> Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes
>> the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
>>
>> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its
>> Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
>> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
>> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
>> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
>> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
>> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
>> governance. Nor is this all.
>>
>> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
>> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
>> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
>> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
>> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
>>
>> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
>> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
>> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
>> clans called the "Palestinians."
>>
>> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
>> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
>> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
>> not vote in Israeli elections.)
>>
>> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
>> Temple Mount.
>>
>> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
>> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
>> permanently.)
>>
>> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
>> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
>> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
>> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
>> Jewish immigration to Israel.
>> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
>> on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
>> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
>> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
>> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
>> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
>>
>> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>>
>> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
>> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
>> all other principles are subordinate.
>>
>> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
>> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
>> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>>
>> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
>> the Jewish character of the State
>>
>> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
>> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
>> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
>> of speech and press.)
>>
>> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
>> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>>
>> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
>> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
>> their curriculum.
>>
>> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
>> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
>> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
>> pride.
>>
>> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
>> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
>> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
>> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
>> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
>> only Jewish homeland.
>>
>> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
>> designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
>> number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it
>> again.
>>
>> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
>> February 16, 2009.
>>
>>
>> =============================================
>> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
>> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
>> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
>> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
>> <wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/15042915/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 19 10:18:24 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:18:24 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex  
issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under  
some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are  
from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach.  
It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no  
way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of  
Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with  
good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of  
Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right  
someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence  
offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in  
the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are  
"Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,  
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those  
who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant  
idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else,  
perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the  
possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember,  
such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle,  
not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One  
God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find  
their respective ways.

Take care,

James


On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Hey Hanoch,
>
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side  
> has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to  
> be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know  
> how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would  
> pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other  
> connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com 
> >: --------------
>
> Hey John,
>
>       I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually  
> had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days  
> (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not  
> wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate  
> on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch  
> upon - and, probably more important, why.
>
>        Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will  
> allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an  
> outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of  
> Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew  
> (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having  
> had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of  
> citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was  
> thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler  
> would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."   
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which  
> allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union'  
> provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
>
>         This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in  
> Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to  
> marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of  
> how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is  
> living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now  
> Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in  
> order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a  
> Jew 'converting' to another faith).
>
>         Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,  
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return  
> to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives  
> AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of  
> people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere  
> around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came  
> just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs,  
> the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork  
> and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF  
> requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is  
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the  
> lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in,  
> and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.   
> They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you  
> want to define it.
>
>         It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a  
> voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael  
> Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.   
> Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist  
> in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products  
> (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be  
> changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in  
> the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular,  
> 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and  
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
>
>         But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls,  
> growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc  
> and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.   
> Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the  
> USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large  
> number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from  
> Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
>
>         Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration  
> laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or  
> Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for  
> Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are  
> one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the  
> "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/ 
> they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is  
> that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to  
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet  
> a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD  
> of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages  
> of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now -  
> who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me  
> to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness  
> (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah  
> (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an  
> Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for  
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as  
> they are.
>
>         In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the  
> religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for  
> example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following  
> "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a  
> UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the  
> future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....
>
>         John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000  
> years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.   
> The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be  
> addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can  
> deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on  
> the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some  
> conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah,"  
> although that's a good thing too.
>
>         And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some  
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from  
> implementing ANYTHING.
>
>           B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
>
>                 Hanoch
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish  
> Israelites or Epraimites.
>
> These points;
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish  
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle  
> to which all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish  
> the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to  
> assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I  
> stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.   
> Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is  
> wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US  
> government).
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com 
> >: --------------
>
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
>
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon  
> published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New  
> Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the  
> Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic  
> prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society  
> inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of  
> responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then  
> arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli  
> solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that  
> for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable  
> of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation  
> or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."
>
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement  
> "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government  
> is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more  
> rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the  
> conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing  
> institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do  
> not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed,  
> they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government  
> needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:
>
>
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law- 
> making and administrative overview, will be divided between two  
> assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate  
> objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making  
> power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.
>
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet  
> ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the  
> Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of  
> administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so  
> widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of  
> Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be  
> free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and  
> efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill  
> the bureaucracy.
>
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept  
> and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet  
> will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President  
> (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law).  
> Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings.  
> Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be  
> first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently  
> used by the Court.
>
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the  
> Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or  
> another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more  
> than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with  
> Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial  
> institutions.
>
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls  
> "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in  
> Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on  
> Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to  
> expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.   
> There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump  
> Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I  
> therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to  
> destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan  
> River.
>
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.   
> Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only  
> whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know  
> there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce  
> Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as  
> to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the  
> Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against  
> the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the  
> West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist  
> network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this  
> goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose  
> fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any  
> coherent and long-term national strategy.
>
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with  
> its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make  
> Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will  
> contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the  
> people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.   
> The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's  
> right-minded public, which would become even more united and  
> effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.
>
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of  
> Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the  
> Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against  
> our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is  
> to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should  
> adopt the following course of action:
>
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist  
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will  
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection  
> of rival clans called the "Palestinians."
>
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish  
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the  
> personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli  
> law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)
>
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the  
> Temple Mount.
>
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and  
> Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in  
> these areas permanently.)
>
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots  
> of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the  
> proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years.  
> This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's  
> large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital  
> investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience,  
> and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion,  
> at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a  
> few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as  
> tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if  
> offered generous incentives.
>
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish  
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle  
> to which all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish  
> the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to  
> assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that  
> negates the Jewish character of the State
>
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government  
> to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an  
> act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to  
> protect freedom of speech and press.)
>
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and  
> their countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who  
> call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include  
> Jewish studies in their curriculum.
>
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the  
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab  
> affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as  
> Jewish national pride.
>
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is  
> a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield  
> much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the  
> expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would  
> discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead  
> to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.
>
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not  
> designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though  
> few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we  
> can do it again.
>
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,  
> February 16, 2009.
>
>
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/ffe994b0/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Feb 19 11:42:52 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:42:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideals
Message-ID: <009601c992b9$7ef21850$0400a8c0@marvin>

 

Hanoch. John and others,

First off,  thanks Hanoch for getting off the Eidelberg Plan and sending it
to us. A very timely an interesting article. John I agree with your points
and your position as a gentile.  I also find myself in this boat, while
looking around and seeing others that might very well be Ephraimites,
gentiles but not aware of who they really are.  Don't misunderstand..   I am
not attempting to judge another's place, walk or position with Hashem.   My
walk has been for X number of years with a certain pace and many
difficulties and trails along the way, although my faith has received many
blows, it has NEVER received the KO punch.   I realize there are many people
in our boat or on the same path with us, they are just at different places
in their journey. Therefore, we must try to help those coming up behind us
and at the same time run harder to catch up with those who have gone on
before. 

  My personal frustration  is dealing with those standing in the median or
along side of the free - way we are traveling on. It's almost like some kind
of survivor guilt or other dysfunctional  neurosis or psychosis that I and
or we are struggling with.  Which in a way might be truer then we first
think..   both terms deal with reality and or lack of reality and being able
to function or not function in ones reality.    Maybe, if we coin a new word
Neurodiaspora,   I feel sometimes like I am on my last nerve here in this
strange land.  I leave it to others to define and list the symptoms' of this
condition. However, what I'm experiencing is due to that lack of having
others in close proximity and then running into knuckle heads with all truth
and understanding in matters of Gods word.   I remember in the movie
"Defiance" there is a scene were the Jews are having a difficult time
surviving with the Nazi's on their heels and the guy who is the acting
spiritual leader or Rabbi(due to I think he was a school teacher) makes a
statement  as he lifts his eyes toward heaven,   "maybe we have been your
special people long enough, could ya choose someone else".  The Torah is the
world of reality and we live in a world of illusion and we long for the day
when "Hashem will be one" and "knowledge of him will cover the earth like
water covers the sea".

 By the way Hanoch thanks for doing your job!   Your response to John was
sharing light, it help me understand a little better.   Now you said:

 Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren,
etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel -
even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever! This is the
same situation we noahides, Ephraimites,  ancient pathers, truth seekers are
in.    This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews,
and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence,
the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it. I agree with all
of the above, but is their lack of faith due to their genetic DNA or to the
fact that they have been to long in idolatry and have not found their way
back to Torah yet?

 It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these
former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor
Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are
civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....  Is this not the similar situation
to the second temple period.  Some serve God one way and others at the
handle end of a sword or dagger knife(zealots).  Don't miss understand...
If I was put in a time machine and returned to second temple period, I think
I would probably side with those zealots who wanted "the system of Moses and
Torah setup". Notice I did not say Judaism, because even in that day, to
many opinions, and yes my understand is deficient and if in the past if they
were to have followed normative Judaism of the day, I could agree.  But,
today there is so many different views.  And if we wait for Moshiach,   he
might be murdered by both Jews and Christians and Ephriamites, and other
confused gentiles because I don't think he will be what any of us expect.
Take this as tongue in cheek,  Frustration form trying to live in TWO
different realities.

 

But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are! Could this be because the Rabbis(broad-brush) refuse
to teach the prophets. They keep everybody so involved with everything else
they never get around to the prophets. Let's get real, there are only 24
hours in a day and 7 days in a week.   Christian preachers, they continue to
replace Israel and spend so much time propping up their god -man they never
get to another subject and if they did they have to reject the two previous
theologies and so around and around the tree they go, then the ones I have
met refuse to teach everything they know.  Why, because it goes against the
system they have built and propped up for the last 2,000 years. Could it be
that Judaism is guilty of the same? 

 One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even
get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that
means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a
UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are
still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or
might be. From my experience and research there are Ephramites(or should we
say people calling themselves, Ephramites) who are mostly messianic
Christians dressed up as Ephramites / Jews.  Not trying to judge another to
critically, but we(all of us who are not Jewish, and have the paperwork to
prove it) are groping in darkness , yea even gross darkness!   I personally
cannot explain some of the things that happen to me, some of the things /
emotions I feel and some of the spiritual thoughts, dreams, understandings I
have, that I should not have,  being raise in a christian culture and
environment.  But for years I have thought something and my knowing will
happen in God's time.   Here is the something:   The following is taken from
a teaching by rabbi Ariel bar Tzadok on Eliyahu,   Eliyahu was on Mt. Carmel
having his showdown with the prophets of baal...    "Eliyahu took advantage
of this primitive form of religious concept and exploited it to the max.
Eliyahu knew full well that Israeli souls, however steeped in idolatry were
still seekers after truth. He knew that this display would soften even the
hardest of hearts and crack open even the hardest of heads. Eliyahu's
calculated plan was working perfectly."  Maybe, this is the secret...   that
the souls of Israel are the truthseekers, all others souls are gentiles.  It
just takes time for these souls to awake and then get to the point were they
are able to standup..  And then get to the point were they can wave at the
rest of us and say...  hey, look, I'm alive, I'm part of Israel too!!!   I
know I smell like death and Idolatry but I clean up nice....  In my personal
frustration with my own neighbors they say they have the truth, even to the
point they need not look for more truth. Being good Christians that they
are...  they will be the first to tell you that any new truth will look
like, smell like, and line up with the truth they already have.  Therefore,
in my mind there is only one answer(answer is subject to change with more
wisdom / understanding).   We need Divine intervention! Not sure what that
means nor exactly how it will be played out.

So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as
they are.

 

Could it be that Moshaich will separate all of us sheep and goats when he
gets here?  I believe there is a teaching or midrash on this.  Forgive me,
but I got to tell this story!....   I was watching a movie once and these
nazi's were Jew hunting, for the purpose of killing. They came upon this one
gentlemen and while holding a gun to his head they asked him if he was a
Jew.  Well naturally he denied it. I thought,  a religious Jew would never
deny his Jewishness..  Or would they?   History says many have!  At any
rate, these nazi's did not believe him, they hit him again, still he denied
he was a Jew.  Then one of them said, "pull his pants down"!   My point..
second temple time all over again!   I think we would all agree you do not
have to be Jewish( of Judah) to have a relationship with the father. You do
not have to be Israelite( Ephraimite, lost triber) to have a relationship
with the father.   In the pages of Tanach we find people who are not of
"Israel" who are living in the land and learning at the feet of Israel.
Therefore there must be a way...  we just have to discover it as we come up
out of the valley.

 

Just checked my e-mail before sending.  Dr. Tabor, makes / gets to the point
perfectly.  Now I'm perplexed. Send, delete!. Send, delete!

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/679203bd/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 19 12:29:04 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:29:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from
the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My
People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has
happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good
reason for now. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
"Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
"lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:





Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not
just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;

 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
(I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

 

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/> 




_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/738bfe7a/attachment.html 

From dhcole1 at cox.net  Thu Feb 19 13:55:00 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
Message-ID: <1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>

"sigh"...........
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!


  Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be "Not My People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is with good reason for now. 

   

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

   

  I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

   

  Take care,

   

  James

   

   

  On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:





  Hey Hanoch,

   

  I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

   

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 

   

    -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

    Hey John,

     

          I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

     

           Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

     

            This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

     

            Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

     

            It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

     

            But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

     

            Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

     

            In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

     

            John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

     

            And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

     

              B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

     

                    Hanoch

     

     

    On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

    I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

     

    These points;

     

    1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

    2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

     

    As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

     

    --
    John C. 

    "Be excellent to each other!" 
    Bill and Ted 

     

      -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

       

      The Eidelberg Plan:
      A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
      February 16, 2009

      In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

      Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

      Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


      PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

      Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

      THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

      THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

      If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

      Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

      Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

      Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

      In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

      We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

      1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

      2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

      3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

      4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

      5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
      6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

      As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

      1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

      2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

      3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

      4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

      5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

      6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

      7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

      Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

      Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

      *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


      =============================================
      Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
      POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
      Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
      mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
      http://www.womeningreen.org




    _______________________________________________

     

  _______________________________________________

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fd07b98/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 19 14:14:56 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:14:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
Message-ID: <05ca01c992ce$be969e30$3bc3da90$@com>

Translation, please? J

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

"sigh"...........

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from
the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My
People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has
happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good
reason for now. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
"Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
"lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not
just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;

 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
(I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

 

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/> 




_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/31653adb/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 15:56:39 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:56:39 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Mishpatim: The Baby's World
Message-ID: <855590370902191356j178579e7lae023750c1d8d50c@mail.gmail.com>

Some interesting thoughts on Parshat Mishpatim...Shabbat Shalom.
            *     Hanoch*

*Mishpatim: The Baby's World*
Shevat 24, 5769, 18 February 09 11:56by by Rabbi Lazer Gurkow
(IsraelNN.com) Early Months
The moment my daughter emerged from the womb and took in her new
surroundings was magical for us as parents. We were enamored with her and
clutched her close to our hearts, but she was oblivious. She never
acknowledged her parents, she simply slept. Over the last few days we have
held her, fed her, bathed her and dressed her, but her blissful oblivion
continues. We have not received a single gesture, smile or nod of
appreciation. Yet we take great pleasure in providing for her. We expect
nothing in return and are completely willing to give. Why is that?
I would like to say it is because she is so adorable, but the truth is a
little more prosaic; it is because we enjoy the feeling of being
indispensable. In the human experience there is no greater pleasure than
that of giving; the greater the need, the greater is the pleasure to
provide. We hesitate to give freely to adults because we fear our efforts
might be taken for granted, but that is never a concern with infants. Babies
are utterly dependant; they mold themselves to our contours and sink in so
completely. They give themselves with a trust that makes our spirit soar.
There will soon come a time when her personality will flourish. Her eyes
will sparkle, her sighs will be content and her smiles will light up her
face. At that time, we will receive her love and appreciation; we will feel
like parents, not just care-givers. But in life there is always a give and
take. We will receive a growing little girl, but we will have lost our
infant.
No longer will we be her entire world. No longer will she give herself to us
so completely. No longer will she need us so desperately. She will have a
mind of her own. She will wander and explore, she will strike out and find
the things that interest her. She will be much more fun to be with and
raising her will be a rewarding experience, but some of the pure elation
that comes from being absolutely needed will be lost.
Three Stages
The human body has three general functions: higher function, vital function
and tactile function. The head, where the brain resides, houses our higher
function. The torso, where the heart and lungs reside, houses our vital
functions. The abdomen, where the intestines reside, houses our tactile
function.
In the womb, a fetus functions mostly on its lowest level; the higher and
vital functions are nourished through the umbilical cord, its tactile
function. When the infant emerges and begins to breathe, its heart and
lungs, the vital functions, become dominant. Though the brain plays a
crucial role from the very beginning, higher functions of cerebral thought
only set in when the child matures.
Jewish mystics saw these three stages as highly symbolic of Jewish life. The
higher function of the brain represents those who study, meditate and seek
to understand their bond with G-d. They serve G-d on the highest level,
because they perform His will from a standpoint of knowledge. The vital
function of the heart, the seat of emotion, represents those who are
passionate about G-d. They serve G-d because they want to, rather than
because they have to.
Finally, there are those whose observance is simply tactile. They faithfully
fulfill all that is asked of them and carry out their Divine mission to
perfection, but they are compelled only by a sense of duty. Their worship is
unadorned with passion and understanding. It is simple.
The Curve
Returning to our analogy of the baby, at the moment she is entirely ours.
With time she will grow into her own. So long as she is limited to her
tactile needs, she is completely dependent on us. The more aware she becomes
of her own interests and desires, the more she will establish her own space.

This applies to our relationship with G-d. The more we understand whom we
serve and why our worship is important, the more meaningful it becomes to
us. The more passionate we are about G-d, the more enjoyment we derive from
serving Him. Such worship is far more sophisticated and meaningful than that
of obedience and self-discipline. Yet there is something pure and utterly
selfless about serving G-d simply because we must; simply because He
commanded us to.
The sophisticated servant derives great pleasure from his service and, to a
certain degree, this pleasure serves as motivation. The pious and righteous
cannot deny that part of their attraction to G-d is the pleasure they derive
from serving Him. The simple servants, who serve because they are commanded
to, who have no appreciation for why they serve and derive no pleasure from
their service, are utterly selfless. Completely devoted to G-d.
Just like my daughter, who clings to me because she must, she needs the care
that I provide, so does the simple servant worship G-d because he must; his
G-d commanded him to. Just like I am elated by the purity and wholesomeness
of my daughter's devotion, so does G-d attribute particular significance, so
to speak, to the utter selflessness of the pure and wholesome servant.
Simple Laws
This is perhaps why the Torah portion that follows the episode of Sinai is
filled with prosaic laws. One might expect the first commandments that
follow the dramatic revelation at Sinai to speak of passion for G-d and the
mystical secrets of creation. Instead, G-d chose to speak of civil laws that
govern society and interpersonal relations.
Perhaps the message here is that before we get carried away with mystical
meditation and spiritual passion, we ought to begin with simple devotion.
Life begins with simple needs, but these are the needs that cement the
relationship between parent and child. This relationship will grow complex
and sophisticated, but it will always benefit from the unadulterated bond
that served as its foundation.
Our relationship with G-d is also complex; it is mystical, spiritual and
passionate. But it begins with the simple and unadorned bond that drives us
to do precisely what He asks of us; not because we want to, but because we
must.
This essay is based on a Chassidic discourse from the former Lubavitcher
Rebbe in 5703.
www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>(c) Copyright
IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
 Reply Forward
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/428bd23d/attachment.html 

From dhcole1 at cox.net  Thu Feb 19 16:05:29 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:05:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<05ca01c992ce$be969e30$3bc3da90$@com>
Message-ID: <7D1B0799557A469BB9800B784EB296F3@davesbook>

Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me of trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs. trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers, race, gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of DNA will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my part....nothing more, nothing less. 

one day at a time.    
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!


  Translation, please? J

   

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

   

  "sigh"...........

  dave

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Patty 

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

    Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

     

    Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be "Not My People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is with good reason for now. 

     

    Patty

     

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
    Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

     

    I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

     

    Take care,

     

    James

     

     

    On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

     

    Hey Hanoch,

     

    I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

     

    --
    John C. 

    "Be excellent to each other!" 
    Bill and Ted 

     

      -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

      Hey John,

       

            I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

       

             Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

       

              This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

       

              Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

       

              It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

       

              But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

       

              Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

       

              In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

       

              John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

       

              And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

       

                B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

       

                      Hanoch

       

       

      On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

      I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

       

      These points;

       

      1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

      2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

       

      As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

       

      --
      John C. 

      "Be excellent to each other!" 
      Bill and Ted 

       

        -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

         

        The Eidelberg Plan:
        A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
        February 16, 2009

        In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

        Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

        Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


        PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

        Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

        THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

        THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

        If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

        Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

        Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

        Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

        In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

        We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

        1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

        2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

        3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

        4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

        5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
        6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

        As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

        1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

        2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

        3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

        4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

        5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

        6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

        7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

        Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

        Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

        *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


        =============================================
        Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
        POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
        Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
        mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
        http://www.womeningreen.org




      _______________________________________________

       

    _______________________________________________

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/4148d56c/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 16:33:10 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:33:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Music to enjoy!
Message-ID: <855590370902191433j7b28f137r9c3eb6068905cf41@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

   Below is 'Shir HaMa'alot, (Psalm 126) which is always sung at the end of
eating, before the Birkat HaMazon (Grace After Meals) on Shabbat & Chaggim
(hoilidays).  There are many melodies that it's sung to, the link below is a
beautiful one in the Mizrachi (Jews from Arab lands) tradition.  Other less
traditional melodies are used here in the States, *"Scarborough
Fair"*(Simon & Garfunkel), for instance, was popular about 25 years
ago.  .  To
the horror of my daughters, I've not only done it to Nirvana's *"Come as You
Are," *and have been working on using Jethro Tull's "*Locomotive
Breath."  *:-)


                               * Hanoch*
*             *Click here: YouTube - SHIR HAMAALOT, PSALM: 126, HAZZAN HAGAY
BATZRI <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxUkWus40aA&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/a95a3ba0/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 16:51:17 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:51:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Rudy Update and Big BARUCH HASHEM!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS14B370A612BFE70AD7998DBAB20@phx.gbl>

      Hi All,

         Just to show you how great is our G-d.  I was praying for the "RIGHT' rehab center to send Rudy to when he was released from the hospital. I was praying, yet I was stressed out trying to find the place I thought would suit Rudy. It turned out that he went to the only one with an available bed, one I really wasn't interested in at all.  But then I learned that the head physical therapist is a man from our Jewish community, ISSI. and the head nurse on his unit is also Jewish. Issi told me that the therapy there is very aggressive and that all of the staff are in tune to PT's wishes, therefore,the patients are kept up and moving all day.  I haven't seen a program like it yet, and had no idea there was one.  But HaShem knew that Rudy really needs lots of encouragement to move and as everything HaShem does, when we let Him, it has turned out to be a perfect fit. And, it's only two miles from our home!  One of these days I'm going to give up trying to "help" HaShem with His work!

      Humbled,
      Linda

      PS:  Rudy is doing amazingly well, physiclly and mentally.  Baruch HaShem!
     
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/50da858c/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Thu Feb 19 16:53:52 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:53:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com> 
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,

Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?

 

Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people will be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."

 

It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which is precious.  

 

There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.  

 

When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.

 

Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:

 

1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham........
 

12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us without cause.
14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men of Gath.
15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.
17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....

19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, and the valley was filled with men's bones.

 
I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:

1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones. 
2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry. 

3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!? 
4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH! 
5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life! 
6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!?? 

7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its [corresponding] bone! 
8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them. 
9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!??? 
10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army! 
11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!? 
12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel. 
13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people! 

14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.?? 
15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say, 
16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.? 
17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united in your hand! 

18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you inform us what these [mean] to you??, 
19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.?? 

20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes [to see]. 
21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground. 
22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms ever again. 
23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them, 
24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out. 

 

We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.

 

That's my 2 shekels worth.

 

Web Hulon





From: dhcole1 at cox.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600





"sigh"...........
dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!



Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now. 
 
Patty
 


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 


On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:





Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 
 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;


 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


 
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
 




_______________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/72f9031f/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 19 17:41:18 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:41:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>

Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject.

It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate  
"return," happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently  
at:

  http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html

In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a  
final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a  
more limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a  
family. The ways in which that takes place might well be operative in  
our own time. This is actually the way it worked with the return of  
Judah as well, if one goes back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of  
pioneers choosing to return.

Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels  
mean different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of  
view, one who is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not  
necessarily a
"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not  
fond of any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not  
Jewish, but a Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach  
category. This is not my self-designation, but one that is functional  
in terms of the Rabbis and potentially the laws of citizenship related  
to the Jewish State.

I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his  
"household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before  
Sinai, as one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not  
all, but rather devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the  
idea of being of the extended "household" of Abraham, with or without  
proof of "bloodline" descent.

James


On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:

> Shalom all,
> Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long  
> before it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that  
> accepted Torah as covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of  
> by Yisrael.  No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a  
> pagan.  How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?
>
> Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most  
> Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to  
> do with being Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment,  
> "For wherever you walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I  
> will stop over. Your people will be my people and your Elohim will  
> be my Elohim."
>
> It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to  
> be in the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors  
> will open.  I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come  
> back to America, but Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah  
> people, before we may go home as a people.  We must be committed to  
> Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which  
> is precious.
>
> There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they  
> are ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed  
> enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the  
> northern tribes?  If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own  
> needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern  
> Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship  
> 2,700 years ago.
>
> When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This  
> is not about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is  
> about us." This is why I prefer to say that we are of the House of  
> Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."  It is the houses  
> that must be joined together, as well as individuals.  The House of  
> Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet  
> been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only  
> way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
>
> Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
>
> 1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites  
> going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men,  
> thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all  
> of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
> 2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed  
> to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken  
> to Abraham........
>
> 12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities  
> of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
> 13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of  
> Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to  
> fight against us without cause.
> 14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with  
> hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And  
> forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to  
> the assistance of the men of Gath.
> 15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of  
> Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands  
> of the Philistines.
> 16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone  
> forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away  
> from the engagement.
> 17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim,  
> for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt,  
> before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had  
> appointed to Yisrael....
> 19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the  
> valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to  
> burial, and the valley was filled with men's bones.
>
> I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that  
> Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide  
> that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever  
> is necessary to go?    And especially if we go from the valley full  
> of dead men's bones to this valley:
>
> 1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s  
> wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was]  
> full of bones.
> 2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and  
> indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they  
> were amazingly dry.
> 3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to  
> life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?
> 4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry  
> bones, listen to the word of YHWH!
> 5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will  
> make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
> 6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you,  
> and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in  
> you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!??
> 7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly  
> there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone  
> to its [corresponding] bone!
> 8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and  
> skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
> 9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and  
> say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind,  
> from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come  
> to life!???
> 10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to  
> come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a  
> very, very vast army!
> 11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole  
> House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up,  
> and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?
> 12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master  
> YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from  
> your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.
> 13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves  
> and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people!
> 14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life,  
> and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I,  
> YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??
> 15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,
> 16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write  
> on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.?  
> Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick  
> of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.?
> 17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one  
> stick, and they will come to be united in your hand!
> 18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t  
> you inform us what these [mean] to you??,
> 19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take  
> the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the  
> tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the  
> stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become  
> one in My hand.??
> 20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for  
> their eyes [to see].
> 21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am  
> taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which  
> they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them  
> onto their own ground.
> 22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the  
> mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and  
> they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer  
> be halved into two kingdoms ever again.
> 23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols  
> or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I  
> will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they  
> have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for  
> Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them,
> 24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will  
> walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and  
> carry them out.
>
> We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the  
> Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then  
> we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be  
> joined back to the House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will  
> magically take place.  To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it  
> won't be done until we do it.  But unity is job one, not return.   
> And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just  
> Yehudah and Ephraim.
>
> That's my 2 shekels worth.
>
> Web Hulon
>
> From: dhcole1 at cox.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600
>
>
> "sigh"...........
> dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patty
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are  
> from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to  
> be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time.  
> And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that  
> maybe this is with good reason for now.
>
> Patty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex  
> issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under  
> some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are  
> from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach.  
> It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no  
> way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe  
> of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is  
> with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part  
> of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same  
> right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no  
> evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost"  
> Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many  
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being  
> Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many  
> of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two  
> covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end,  
> something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now  
> there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework,  
> and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and  
> Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds-- 
> other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility  
> for people to find their respective ways.
>
> Take care,
>
> James
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
> Hey Hanoch,
>
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side  
> has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to  
> be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know  
> how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would  
> pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other  
> connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com 
> >: --------------
> Hey John,
>
>       I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually  
> had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days  
> (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not  
> wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate  
> on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch  
> upon - and, probably more important, why.
>
>        Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will  
> allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an  
> outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of  
> Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew  
> (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having  
> had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of  
> citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was  
> thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler  
> would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."   
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which  
> allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union'  
> provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
>
>         This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in  
> Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to  
> marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of  
> how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is  
> living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now  
> Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in  
> order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a  
> Jew 'converting' to another faith).
>
>         Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,  
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return  
> to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives  
> AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of  
> people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere  
> around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came  
> just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs,  
> the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork  
> and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF  
> requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is  
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the  
> lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in,  
> and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.   
> They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you  
> want to define it.
>
>         It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a  
> voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael  
> Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.   
> Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist  
> in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products  
> (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be  
> changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in  
> the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular,  
> 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and  
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
>
>         But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls,  
> growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc  
> and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.   
> Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the  
> USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large  
> number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from  
> Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
>
>         Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration  
> laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or  
> Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for  
> Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are  
> one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the  
> "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/ 
> they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is  
> that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselvesas to who  
> they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a  
> group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of  
> the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of  
> Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now -  
> who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me  
> to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness  
> (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah  
> (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an  
> Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for  
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as  
> they are.
>
>         In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the  
> religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for  
> example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following  
> "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a  
> UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the  
> future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....
>
>         John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000  
> years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.   
> The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be  
> addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can  
> deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on  
> the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some  
> conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah,"  
> although that's a good thing too.
>
>         And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some  
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from  
> implementing ANYTHING.
>
>           B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
>
>                 Hanoch
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish  
> Israelites or Epraimites.
>
> These points;
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish  
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle  
> to which all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish  
> the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to  
> assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I  
> stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.   
> Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is  
> wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US  
> government).
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com 
> >: --------------
>
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon  
> published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New  
> Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the  
> Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic  
> prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society  
> inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of  
> responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then  
> arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli  
> solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that  
> for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable  
> of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation  
> or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."
>
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement  
> "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government  
> is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more  
> rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the  
> conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing  
> institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do  
> not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed,  
> they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government  
> needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:
>
>
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law- 
> making and administrative overview, will be divided between two  
> assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate  
> objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making  
> power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.
>
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet  
> ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the  
> Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of  
> administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so  
> widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of  
> Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be  
> free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and  
> efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill  
> the bureaucracy.
>
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept  
> and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet  
> will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President  
> (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law).  
> Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings.  
> Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be  
> first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently  
> used by the Court.
>
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the  
> Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or  
> another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more  
> than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with  
> Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial  
> institutions.
>
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls  
> "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in  
> Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on  
> Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to  
> expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.   
> There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump  
> Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I  
> therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to  
> destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan  
> River.
>
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.   
> Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only  
> whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know  
> there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce  
> Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as  
> to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the  
> Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against  
> the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the  
> West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist  
> network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this  
> goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose  
> fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any  
> coherent and long-term national strategy.
>
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with  
> its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make  
> Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will  
> contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the  
> people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.   
> The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's  
> right-minded public, which would become even more united and  
> effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.
>
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of  
> Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the  
> Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against  
> our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is  
> to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should  
> adopt the following course of action:
>
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist  
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will  
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection  
> of rival clans called the "Palestinians."
>
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish  
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the  
> personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli  
> law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)
>
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the  
> Temple Mount.
>
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and  
> Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in  
> these areas permanently.)
>
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots  
> of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the  
> proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years.  
> This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's  
> large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital  
> investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience,  
> and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion,  
> at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a  
> few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as  
> tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if  
> offered generous incentives.
>
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish  
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle  
> to which all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish  
> the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to  
> assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that  
> negates the Jewish character of the State
>
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government  
> to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an  
> act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to  
> protect freedom of speech and press.)
>
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and  
> their countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who  
> call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include  
> Jewish studies in their curriculum.
>
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the  
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab  
> affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as  
> Jewish national pride.
>
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is  
> a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield  
> much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the  
> expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would  
> discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead  
> to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.
>
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not  
> designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though  
> few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we  
> can do it again.
>
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,  
> February 16, 2009.
>
>
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from  
> Jamie. Learn Now _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/4b14d239/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 17:51:11 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:51:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <33315.64575.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks Hanoch for the very clear insights and analysis.

I must agree with your analysis?James...in fact, as I learned this year, there is already such a B'nai Noach framework and?prototype in Israel: The Druzees.

Tracy


?



________________________________
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be
 "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways. 

Take care,

James




On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

Hey Hanoch,

I understand the problem.? Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.? I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.? I don't like labels for that very reason.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Hey John,
?
????? I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.? But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
?
???????Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow?me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.? It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.? However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."? What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
?
????????This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.? A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.? Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
?
????????Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still?be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!? Ever!? This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.? Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.? Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.? Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.? They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.? They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
?
????????It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.? Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).? So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....
?
????????But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.? Very, very sad.? And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
?
??????? Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."? As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.? But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!? No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!? One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.? I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!?? We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.? Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'? I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from
 a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.? So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'? Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.
?
????????In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.? Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?? That's where the future comes in;? and I mean the not-too-distant future....
?
????????John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.? The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!?? This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.? For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.? Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
?
????????And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.
?
??????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
?
????????????????Hanoch



On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

These points;


1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

As far as I know I am a gentile.? But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.? Where does this leave me?? I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 



The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."? Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.? Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.? Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.? To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.? Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.? Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.? Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.? They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.?? I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.? It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.? There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.? I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.? Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.? Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.? The West is steeped in denial.? Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.? It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.? But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.?? The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.? The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.? Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.? This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.?? But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.? It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.? It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."? But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.?? Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org


_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/8311cae6/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 18:31:09 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:31:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Again, I must agree with you James...although?we have very different views about Yeshua and the NT...there has to be a bottom line of devotion toward Y-H-W-H and "keeping the Way". I believe that this "Noachide framework" is actually taught by Yeshua and the NT anyway, as I have demonstrated here... www.OnHigh.org/OIMH7.htm .? So, IMHO,?to call?oneself a child of Abraham (which I do), is quite apropo, with or without a claim that?Yeshua ben David?is Mashiach (which I do).?Maybe we'll simply have to have distinct synagogues like the various Yehudi groups, agree to disagree, on some points, but embrace the bottom line together.

Tracy




________________________________
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:41:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject. 

It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return," happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at: 

?http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html

In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The ways in which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This is actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.

Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a?
"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.

I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his "household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as one sees in Gen 18:19. ?In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline" descent.

James



On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:

Shalom all,
Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.? Yisrael was a nation long before it ever entered?ha'aretz.? Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as covenant.??That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.? No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.? A gentile is a pagan.? How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?
?
Historically not all Yisraelites were?Yehudim.? Not even most Yisraelites were Yehudim.? Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being Jewish or a Noachide.? It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk,?I will walk and wherever you stop over,?I will stop over. Your people will be my people and your?Elohim will be my Elohim."
?
It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the land.? When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.? I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but Ephraim must be not just?a people, but a Torah people, before we?may go home as a people.? We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which is precious.??
?
There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are ready to?live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?? If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.? It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.??
?
When I begin to teach a new student, I always?tell them first, "This is not about you, it is about us.? Torah is not about you, it is about us."?This is why I?prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."? It is the houses that must be joined together, as well as individuals.? The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet been defined.? Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
?
Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
?

1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham........?

12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us without cause.
14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men of Gath.
15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim,?for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....
19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial,?and the valley was filled with men's bones.

?
I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.? Can we really decide that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go???? And especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:

1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry.?

3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH! 
5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!???

7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its [corresponding] bone!
8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!???
10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army!
11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?
12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people!?

14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??
15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.? 
17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united in your hand!?

18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you inform us what these [mean] to you??,19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.???

20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes [to see].21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground. 
22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms ever again.
23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them,
24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out.?
?
We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"? Then we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the House of Yehudah.? I am not saying that this will magically take place.? To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.? But unity is job one, not return.? And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
?
That's my 2 shekels worth.
?
Web Hulon

________________________________

From:?dhcole1 at cox.net
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600



"sigh"...........
dave
----- Original Message -----
From:?Patty
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent:?Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject:?RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now.
?
Patty
?
From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor
Sent:?Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
?
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be
 "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
?
Take care,
?
James
?
?
On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM,?carlson_john at bellsouth.net?wrote:


Hey Hanoch,
?
I understand the problem.? Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.? I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.? I don't like labels for that very reason.
?
--
John C.?

"Be excellent to each other!"?
Bill and Ted
?
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------
Hey John,
?
????? I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.? But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
?
???????Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow?me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.? It?should?have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.? However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."? What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
?
????????This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.? A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.? Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
?
????????Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still?be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!? Ever!? This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.? Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.? Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.? Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.? They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.? They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
?
????????It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.? Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).? So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....
?
????????But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.? Very, very sad.? And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
?
??????? Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."? As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.? But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!? No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!? One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among?themselvesas to who they are, and what that means.? I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even?HEARD?of the United Israel World Union!?? We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.? Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'? I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter
 from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.? So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'? Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.
?
????????In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it,?the?religion is Judaism.? Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?? That's where the future comes in;? and I mean the not-too-distant future....
?
????????John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.? The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!?? This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.? For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.? Get some unity, get some conversations going?among themselves?- not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
?
????????And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.
?
??????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
?
????????????????Hanoch
?
?
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.
?
These points;
?
1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
?
As far as I know I am a gentile.? But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.? Where does this leave me?? I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).
?
--
John C.?

"Be excellent to each other!"?
Bill and Ted
?
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------
?
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."? Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.? Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of responsible self-government.? Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.? To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.? Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.? Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.? Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.? They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.?? I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.? It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.? There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.? I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.? Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.? Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.? The West is steeped in denial.? Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.? It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.? But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more Jewish.?? The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.? The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.? Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.? This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.?? But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.? It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.? It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."? But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.?? Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green)?
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel?
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380?
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
?
_______________________________________________
?
________________________________


_______________________________________________

________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie.?Learn Now?_______________________________________________


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/c915608b/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 19:27:33 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:27:33 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
	<766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370902191727m45acd661ra4a5699dacb0c388@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

     Wow...of ALL the things I've posted on this list, I am totally
surprised that THIS ONE got so much attention...hmmm, very interesting.

     A few thoughts:
1.  I agree with James and Tracy that the Noahide framework might be THE WAY
to go, for those individuals that want to live in Israel (Ephramites, or
otherwise).  We're not talking about an "end time" scenario, when everything
gets sorted out for us, but NOW, today...in 2009 (for those who wish to live
in Israel; a vital point I would need to elaborate on in more detail at a
later date).

2. Web, I agree that Yisrael is a people; however, that's only one third of
the equation.  We *are* a people, chosen by G-d to live a certain way (a
life of Torah) in a certain land (Eretz Yisrael).

3.  Marvin, I don't think there's a conscious decision on the part of
*any*group of Rabbis to not teach the Prophets.  It's more of an issue
that the
very VAST majority of Jews in America have never, ever read any part of the
Tanach, and I'm talking about reading it in English.

4. "Ephramites killed leaving Egypt" - this is a Midrash, it is at best, a
homiletic story.  If you want to believe it, and have it guide your actions,
hey, we all believe different things.

5.  Individuals who are not Jewish are NOT pagans (modern times); prior to
the advent of Christianity & Islam, it might have been the case, but not
now.

6.  Patty & Web - not too worry, I do not believe there is, or will be a
mass movement on the part of Ephramites to live in Israel.  When the final
redemption arrives, we will ALL get to know who we are, and where we
belong.  And there will be many surprises, and you can quote me on that!

7. Tracy - I think you're 100% correct that we need to focus on what's most
important - our relationship to HaShem, and to HIS Torah.

  Many more thoughts folks, but I'll leave it to someone else to jump in
now...

   B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael With Love of Judah & Israel),
                  * Hanoch*

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>  Again, I must agree with you James...although we have very different
> views about Yeshua and the NT...there has to be a bottom line of devotion
> toward Y-H-W-H and "keeping the Way". I believe that this "Noachide
> framework" is actually taught by Yeshua and the NT anyway, as I have
> demonstrated here... www.OnHigh.org/OIMH7.htm<http://www.onhigh.org/OIMH7.htm>.  So, IMHO, to
> call oneself a child of Abraham (which I do), is quite apropo, with or
> without a claim that Yeshua ben David is Mashiach (which I do). Maybe we'll
> simply have to have distinct synagogues like the various Yehudi groups,
> agree to disagree, on some points, but embrace the bottom line together.
>
> Tracy
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:41:18 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
> Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject.
> It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return,"
> happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at:
>
> http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html
>
> In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a
> final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more
> limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The
> ways in which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This
> is actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes
> back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.
>
> Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean
> different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who
> is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a
> "pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of
> any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a
> Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not
> my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and
> potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.
>
> I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his
> "household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as
> one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather
> devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the
> extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline"
> descent.
>
> James
>
>
>  On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:
>
>  Shalom all,
> Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before
> it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as
> covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who
> walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in
> Torah and be a pagan?
>
> Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites
> were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being
> Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you
> walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people
> will be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."
>
> It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in
> the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I
> love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but
> Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home
> as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise,
> we once again defile that which is precious.
>
> There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are
> ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and
> Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we
> go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving
> behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost
> us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.
>
> When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not
> about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is
> why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis
> being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as
> well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the
> House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as
> that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
>
> Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
>
> 1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going
> down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on
> foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of
> the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
> 2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the
> children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to
> Abraham........
>
> 12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the
> Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
> 13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim
> who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us
> without cause.
> 14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and
> thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men
> went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men
> of Gath.
> 15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and
> YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
> 16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from
> Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.
> 17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, *for
> they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the
> period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to
> Yisrael....*
> 19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley
> of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, *and the
> valley was filled with men's bones*.
>
>
> I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a
> tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us
> to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And
> especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:
>
> 1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH's wind and
> set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.
> 2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed,
> [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly
> dry.
> ** 3. Then He said to me, "Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to
> life?" And I said, "O Master YHWH, [only] You know!"
> 4. So He said, "Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, "O dry bones,
> listen to the word of YHWH! 5. "This is what the Master YHWH says to these
> bones: 'Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
> 6. "'Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and
> spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you
> will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!'"
> **
> ** 7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly
> there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its
> [corresponding] bone!
> ** 8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin
> spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
> ** 9. So He told me, "Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say
> to the wind, 'This is what the Master YHWH says: "Come, O wind, from the
> four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!"'"
> ** 10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come
> into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast
> army!
> ** 11. Then He told me, "Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House
> of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is
> lost; we have been separated to ourselves!'
> ** 12. "Therefore, prophesy and tell them, 'This is what the Master YHWH
> says: "Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My
> people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.
> 13. "'"Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause
> you to ascend from your graves, My people!
> ** 14. "'"And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and
> let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have
> spoken and have carried it out," declares YHWH.'"
> 15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,
> 16. "As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it,
> 'For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.' Then take one
> [more] stick and write on it, 'For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the
> whole House of Israel, his companions.' 17. "Then bring the one close to
> the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united
> in your hand!
> **
> ** 18. "Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, 'Won't you
> inform us what these [mean] to you?',
> 19. "tell them, 'This is what the Master YHWH says: "Watch Me take the
> stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of
> Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and
> make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand."'
> ** 20. "Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their
> eyes [to see].
> 21. "And tell them, 'This is what the Master YHWH says: "Watch! I am taking
> the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone,
> and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground. 22.
> "'"Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of
> Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again
> become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms
> ever again.
> 23. "'"And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their
> detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them
> out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will
> purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an
> Elohim to them,
> 24. "'"with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in
> My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out.
>
> We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet
> commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be
> fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the
> House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To
> the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But
> unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in
> this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
>
> That's my 2 shekels worth.
>
> Web Hulon
> ------------------------------
>
> From: dhcole1 at cox.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600
>
>
> "*sigh"...........*
> dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>  Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be "Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is with good
> reason for now.
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>  *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
> mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org<dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *James Tabor
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
>
>
>  Take care,
>
>
>  James
>
>
>
>
>  On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>  Hey Hanoch,
>
>
>  I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has
> to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called
> an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
> that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me
> because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels
> for that very reason.
>
>
>  --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>  Hey John,
>
>
>        I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
> been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before
> sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend
> anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor
> Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more
> important, why.
>
>
>         Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will
> allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It *should *have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to
> Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in
> accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the
> aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare
> someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for
> having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather
> clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union'
> provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
>
>
>          This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
>
>
>          Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
>
>
>          It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
>
>
>          But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing
> up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then
> finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.
> And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
> government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants,
> instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
>
>
>          Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among *themselves*as
> to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
> group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even *HEARD *of the
> United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
> 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to
> decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli
> citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a
> Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah,
> etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be
> no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
> as they are.
>
>
>          In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, *the *religion
> is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
> of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't
> mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among
> each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
> not-too-distant future....
>
>
>          John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000
> years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End
> Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
> resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going *among themselves *-
> not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
>
>
>          And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
>
>
>            B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
>
>
>              *    Hanoch*
>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>  I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
>
>
>  These points;
>
>
>  1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
>
>  As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand
> with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
> leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
> friends (I'm not talking about the US government).
>
>
>  --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>
>
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
> a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace
> precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will
> then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
>
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
>
>
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
> existing Knesset.
>
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
>
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
>
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
>
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
> west of the Jordan River.
>
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of
> peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
> for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
> West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going
> on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
> Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of
> Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes
> the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
>
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its
> Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
>
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
> of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
>
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
>
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
>
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
> Mount.
>
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
>
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
> on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
>
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
>
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
>
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
> their curriculum.
>
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
>
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
>
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
>
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
> 16, 2009.
>
>
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> <wfit2 at womeningreen.org>http://www.womeningreen.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. Learn
> Now<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/c0dce052/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Thu Feb 19 19:33:21 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:33:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl> 
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W38D15D5631D3EA49902C19C5B30@phx.gbl>


Shalom James,

 

Todah for the clarification.  From a MODERN Rabbinic point of view that is generally presented to those who love Yisrael, I can certainly understand being seen as a Noachide.  This concept is established in the Talmud, so it is Rabbinic.  Of course it is based on the laws given to Noach in Genesis 9 in the establishment of a covenant with all living creatures to not destroy the earth with another flood.

 

I am not sure as to how the phrase "righteous of the nations" came into existance, although I do know that this is a designation used by Yad Vashem for those who saved Yehudim during the Holocaust.  If you have a Scriptural reference for the term, I would appreciate your sharing.  I have need of learning.
 

Here is my disagreement with both the title of Gentile and the concept of B'nei Noach and the reason that those of us returning to torah cannot be seen as B'nei Noach from a TRADITIONAL point of view. The Jewish Encyclopedia article on "Gentiles" states the following:

 

 As the non-Israelite and the nokri were "heathens," "goi" came to denote a "heathen," like the later "'akkum," which, in strict construction, is not applicable to Christians or Mohammedans (see below). In its most comprehensive sense "goi" corresponds to the other late term, "ummot ha-'olam" (the peoples of the world). 

 

The following is from an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia titled "Gentiles May Not be Taught the Torah":

 

Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.

 

So, according to the Talmud, a Noachide may not observe Shabbat. The article goes on to explain that only the MORAL laws of Noah may be observed and that anyone teaching Torah to a Gentile/Noachide is deserving of death.  

 

Does this mean that, according to the Talmud, there should be no such thing as a Torah observant Gentile or a Torah observant Noachide?

 

If I, a non-Jew, a non-Christian, and a non-Muslim, keep the Shabbat, or keep kosher, or keep the other Moedim or observe purity laws, have I somehow violated Torah?  Or is this only the case if I declare myself a B'nei Noach?

 

Ps 119:140-142
140 Your word is very pure; therefore Your servant loves it.
141 I am small and despised, yet I do not forget Your precepts.
142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.


This is one of many passages equating righteousness with Torah.  I can't understand how I can be a righteous one and still be forbidden to keep Torah.  How can it be that I am bound by the Rabbinic interpretations of Torah but not the mitzvot of Torah?  I have need of learning.

 

Many blessings,

Web


Ps 37:29
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever. 


From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:41:18 -0500

Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject.


It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return," happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at:


 http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html


In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The ways in which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This is actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.


Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a 
"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.


I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his "household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline" descent.


James





On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:

Shalom all,
Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?
 
Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people will be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."
 
It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which is precious.  
 
There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.  
 
When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
 
Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
 

1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham........ 

12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us without cause.
14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men of Gath.
15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....
19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, and the valley was filled with men's bones.

 
I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:

1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry. 

3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!
5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!?? 

7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its [corresponding] bone!
8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!???
10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army!
11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?
12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people! 

14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??
15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.?
17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united in your hand! 

18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you inform us what these [mean] to you??,19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.?? 

20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes [to see].21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground.
22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms ever again.
23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them,
24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out. 
 
We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
 
That's my 2 shekels worth.
 
Web Hulon



From: dhcole1 at cox.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600



"sigh"...........
dave

----- Original Message -----
From: Patty
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!



Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now.
 
Patty
 


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 


On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:





Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselvesas to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 
 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;


 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------


 
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
 



_______________________________________________



Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. Learn Now _______________________________________________


_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/b27cc388/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 20:14:33 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:14:33 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel
Message-ID: <855590370902191814i760fa618kd18805f70d83f989@mail.gmail.com>

Just got this forwarded....my two Israelis....my daughters  :-)  Sitting in
Burgers Bar (hey Tracy - remember that one near the hotel?) in Jerusalem.
                            *Hanoch*
**
[image:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/b4e13069/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 19 20:28:34 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:28:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <063f01c99302$f00e81b0$d02b8510$@com>

Hi James,

 

I like this idea very much. Maybe even more than DNA, a belief in the One
G-d of Israel and Torah should be the requirement. After all, in Isa. 56 we
read:

 

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH,
speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let
the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose
the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a
name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting
name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to
serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one
that keep the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer
for all people.
[8] YHWH Elohim which gathers the outcasts of Israel says, Yet will I gather
others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:41 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject.

 

It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return,"
happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at:

 

 
http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-a
nd-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html

 

In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a final
"massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more limited
re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The ways in
which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This is
actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes
back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.

 

Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean
different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who
is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a 

"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of
any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a
Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not
my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and
potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.

 

I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his
"household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as
one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather
devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the
extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline"
descent.

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:





Shalom all,
Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before it
ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as
covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who
walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in
Torah and be a pagan?
 
Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites
were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being
Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk,
I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people will
be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."
 
It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the
land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I love
the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but
Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home
as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise,
we once again defile that which is precious.  
 
There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are
ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and
Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we
go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving
behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost
us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.  
 
When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not
about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is
why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis
being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as
well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the
House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as
that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
 
Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
 

1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going
down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on
foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of
the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.

2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the
children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to
Abraham........

 

12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the
Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,

13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim
who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us
without cause.

14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and
thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men
went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men
of Gath.

15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and
YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.

16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from
Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.

17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, for they
transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period
had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....
19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley
of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, and the
valley was filled with men's bones.

 

I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a
tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us
to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And
especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:


1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and
set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.

2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there
were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry. 

3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life??
And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?

4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones,
listen to the word of YHWH!

5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make
breath enter into you, and you will come to life!

6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and
spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you
will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!?? 

7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was
a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its
[corresponding] bone!

8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread
over them from above, but there was no breath in them.

9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to
the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four
winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!???

10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into
them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army!

11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of
Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is
lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?

12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says:
?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My
people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.

13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause
you to ascend from your graves, My people! 

14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let
you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken
and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??

15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,

16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it,
?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one
[more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the
whole House of Israel, his companions.?

17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick,
and they will come to be united in your hand! 

18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you
inform us what these [mean] to you??,

19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick
of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel,
his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make
them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.?? 

20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes
[to see].

21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking
the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone,
and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground.

22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of
Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again
become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms
ever again.

23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their
detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them
out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will
purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an
Elohim to them,

24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My
legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out. 
 
We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet
commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be
fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the
House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To
the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But
unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in
this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
 
That's my 2 shekels worth.
 
Web Hulon

  _____  


From: dhcole1 at cox.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600



"sigh"...........

dave

----- Original Message -----

From: Patty <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from
the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My
People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has
happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good
reason for now.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
"Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
"lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
--------------

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselvesas to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not
just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;

 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
(I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
--------------

 

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace
precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will
then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of
peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/> 




_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  



_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie.
Learn Now
<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5
50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008>
_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/e8014ffc/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 20:29:47 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:29:47 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
Message-ID: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com>

Ayala is 2nd from the right.....

[image:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/bb9b3bf9/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 20:33:13 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:33:13 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] With her 2 Aussie roomates
Message-ID: <855590370902191833n586db808ked588a6fc6500c45@mail.gmail.com>

Ayala is on the far right...they had her try Vegemite for Australia Day!
:-)

[image:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/6db9cd33/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 19 20:36:46 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:36:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com>

What a wonderful group of young people! She looks so happy, congrats. How
old is she?

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:30 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan

 

Ayala is 2nd from the right.....

 

 
<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global
&subj=699766534>
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&
subj=699766534

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/2f2607b0/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 20:57:08 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:57:08 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
In-Reply-To: <065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com>
References: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370902191857o5c5215a3pb53cdb587fe8e1d0@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty -

   Toda!  Ayala will be, G-d willing, 24 in June.  I, of course, became her
dad right after my Bar Mitzvah, which is how I am now only 38.....

                  * Hanoch*  :-)

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  What a wonderful group of young people! She looks so happy, congrats. How
> old is she?
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:30 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
>
>
>
> Ayala is 2nd from the right.....
>
>
>
> [image:
> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/bacf1ce3/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 20:59:03 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:59:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel
References: <855590370902191814i760fa618kd18805f70d83f989@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <113894.67676.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Yeah man!! They look great---very happy!!? Those were some great burgers and some great days!! I look forward to more days like those!!

Tracy




________________________________
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:14:33 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel


Just got this forwarded....my two Israelis....my daughters? :-)? Sitting in Burgers Bar (hey Tracy - remember that one near the hotel?) in Jerusalem.? 
??????????????????????????? Hanoch


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/20b69ebf/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:08:10 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:08:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] With her 2 Aussie roomates
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191833n586db808ked588a6fc6500c45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022020090308.7394.499E1E9A0004D0A300001CE222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Did she like it?  We tried it back in the 80's, I actually liked it, but it's hard to find in Louisiana.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Ayala is on the far right...they had her try Vegemite for Australia Day!  :-)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/52560c6c/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 21:10:01 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:10:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191814i760fa618kd18805f70d83f989@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902191814i760fa618kd18805f70d83f989@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS88DB3ACF80E1BBF8A5B71BAB30@phx.gbl>

Are those two happy little faces or what???  

I've always said, the most beautiful women in the world are in Israel, and here is the proof!  Your two Israelis are gorgeous, Hanoch.  

Pat


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel


Just got this forwarded....my two Israelis....my daughters  :-)  Sitting in Burgers Bar (hey Tracy - remember that one near the hotel?) in Jerusalem.  
                            Hanoch




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/8a3660e8/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:10:18 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:10:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <063f01c99302$f00e81b0$d02b8510$@com>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl><1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
	<063f01c99302$f00e81b0$d02b8510$@com>
Message-ID: <022020090310.11282.499E1F150005907300002C1222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Amein Patty.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hi James,
 
I like this idea very much. Maybe even more than DNA, a belief in the One G-d of Israel and Torah should be the requirement. After all, in Isa. 56 we read:
 
[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keep the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
[8] YHWH Elohim which gathers the outcasts of Israel says, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:41 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject.
 
It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return," happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at:
 
 http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html
 
In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The ways in which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This is actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.
 
Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a 
"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.
 
I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his "household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline" descent.
 
James
 
 
On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:



Shalom all,
Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?
 
Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people will be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."
 
It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which is precious.  
 
There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.  
 
When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
 
Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
 
1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham........
 
12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us without cause.
14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men of Gath.
15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.
17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....
19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, and the valley was filled with men's bones.
 
I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:

1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.
2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry. 
3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?
4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!
5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!?? 
7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its [corresponding] bone!
8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!???
10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army!
11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?
12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.
13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people! 
14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??
15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,
16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.?
17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united in your hand! 
18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you inform us what these [mean] to you??,
19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.?? 
20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes [to see].
21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground.
22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms ever again.
23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them,
24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out. 
 
We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
 
That's my 2 shekels worth.
 
Web Hulon




From: dhcole1 at cox.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600


"sigh"...........
dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Patty
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
 
Take care,
 
James
 
 
On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
 
Hey Hanoch,
 
I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted
 
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------
Hey John,
 
      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
 
       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
 
        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
 
        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
 
        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....
 
        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
 
        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselvesas to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.
 
        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....
 
        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
 
        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.
 
          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
 
                Hanoch
 
 
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.
 
These points;
 
1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
 
As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted
 
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------
 
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
 




_______________________________________________
 



Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. Learn Now _______________________________________________
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/72f33288/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:12:06 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:12:06 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] My Update from Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191814i760fa618kd18805f70d83f989@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022020090312.15984.499E1F8600031C4100003E7022218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey man,

They are beautiful.

It's cool that I can say that I've been there.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Just got this forwarded....my two Israelis....my daughters  :-)  Sitting in Burgers Bar (hey Tracy - remember that one near the hotel?) in Jerusalem.  
                            Hanoch
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/90ed451e/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:41:57 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:41:57 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W38D15D5631D3EA49902C19C5B30@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com><021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net><05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook><BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
	<BAY107-W38D15D5631D3EA49902C19C5B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <022020090341.14543.499E267F0007A294000038CF22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Wow man, you're making me dizzy.

First off, I don't think that Torah obligates anyone to accept as G-d's Word anything man says, whether it's a Rabbi, the Pope or Billy Graham.

The whole point from my perspective is a personal relationship with G-d.  From that point on we are simply required to obey Him, both in His written Word and in what we understand Him to require of us in our lives through that relationship.

G-d told Abraham to leave his land and his people and he did, without reservation or question.  I think that is what we should strive for, that kind of relationship.

If G-d moves some of us (whoever we are) to leave the lives we've led to go to ha'aretz for whatever reason, we should do so, without question.  There are undoubtedly many problems with this and I believe that every one of those problems is well documented in Genesis regarding Abraham's journey.

Hanoch's post simply made it clear what obstacles will need to be ovecome.  I am not deterred.

And just for the record, in no way do I feel guilty for leaving my brethren of the Northern tribes to move to the Land, my purpose, as I understand it, is to help others of my brethren do the same.  If we are called to take the first step we should do so.  This is not something I do for myself, it is something I do because my G-d has asked me to and it will benefit my family, whoever they are.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>: -------------- 

Shalom James,
 
Todah for the clarification.  From a MODERN Rabbinic point of view that is generally presented to those who love Yisrael, I can certainly understand being seen as a Noachide.  This concept is established in the Talmud, so it is Rabbinic.  Of course it is based on the laws given to Noach in Genesis 9 in the establishment of a covenant with all living creatures to not destroy the earth with another flood.
 
I am not sure as to how the phrase "righteous of the nations" came into existance, although I do know that this is a designation used by Yad Vashem for those who saved Yehudim during the Holocaust.  If you have a Scriptural reference for the term, I would appreciate your sharing.  I have need of learning.
 
Here is my disagreement with both the title of Gentile and the concept of B'nei Noach and the reason that those of us returning to torah cannot be seen as B'nei Noach from a TRADITIONAL point of view. The Jewish Encyclopedia article on "Gentiles" states the following:
 
 As the non-Israelite and the nokri were "heathens," "goi" came to denote a "heathen," like the later "'akkum," which, in strict construction, is not applicable to Christians or Mohammedans (see below). In its most comprehensive sense "goi" corresponds to the other late term, "ummot ha-'olam" (the peoples of the world). 
 
The following is from an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia titled "Gentiles May Not be Taught the Torah":
 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.
 
So, according to the Talmud, a Noachide may not observe Shabbat. The article goes on to explain that only the MORAL laws of Noah may be observed and that anyone teaching Torah to a Gentile/Noachide is deserving of death.  
 
Does this mean that, according to the Talmud, there should be no such thing as a Torah observant Gentile or a Torah observant Noachide?
 
If I, a non-Jew, a non-Christian, and a non-Muslim, keep the Shabbat, or keep kosher, or keep the other Moedim or observe purity laws, have I somehow violated Torah?  Or is this only the case if I declare myself a B'nei Noach?
 
Ps 119:140-142
140 Your word is very pure; therefore Your servant loves it.
141 I am small and despised, yet I do not forget Your precepts.
142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.

This is one of many passages equating righteousness with Torah.  I can't understand how I can be a righteous one and still be forbidden to keep Torah.  How can it be that I am bound by the Rabbinic interpretations of Torah but not the mitzvot of Torah?  I have need of learning.
 
Many blessings,
Web

Ps 37:29
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever. 


From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:41:18 -0500

Thanks for all these comments. It is a very interesting subject. 


It seems to me in reading the Hebrew Prophets that the ultimate "return," happens in stages. The major texts are archived conveniently at: 


 http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html


In terms of the northern tribes, scattered among the nations, before a final "massive" return, that rivals the Exodus from Egypt, there is a more limited re-gathering, one by one, or one from a city, two from a family. The ways in which that takes place might well be operative in our own time. This is actually the way it worked with the return of Judah as well, if one goes back to the 1880s, with just a trickle of pioneers choosing to return.


Nomenclature can be varied, overlapping, and confusing, and labels mean different things to different people. From a Rabbinic point of view, one who is not halachically Jewish is a Gentile, but not necessarily a 
"pagan," but rather one of the "righteous of the nations." I am not fond of any label, but from a rabbinic point of view, since I am not Jewish, but a Torah observant non-Jew, I fall into the B'nai Noach category. This is not my self-designation, but one that is functional in terms of the Rabbis and potentially the laws of citizenship related to the Jewish State.


I find the concept of both the "children" of Abraham, as well as his "household," quite powerful, and it was operative 400 years before Sinai, as one sees in Gen 18:19.  In other words, bloodline is not all, but rather devotion toward YHVH and keeping the Way. I like the idea of being of the extended "household" of Abraham, with or without proof of "bloodline" descent.


James




On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Ronnie Hulon wrote:


Shalom all,
Yisrael is not a state, it is a people.  Yisrael was a nation long before it ever entered ha'aretz.  Yisrael is the nation that accepted Torah as covenant.  That covenant can only be partaken of by Yisrael.  No one who walks in Torah is a gentile.  A gentile is a pagan.  How can someone walk in Torah and be a pagan?
 
Historically not all Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Not even most Yisraelites were Yehudim.  Becoming a part of Yisrael had nothing to do with being Jewish or a Noachide.  It had to do with commitment, "For wherever you walk, I will walk and wherever you stop over, I will stop over. Your people will be my people and your Elohim will be my Elohim."
 
It is obviously not time for anyone other that Yehudah and Levi to be in the land.  When it is time for Ephraim to go home, the doors will open.  I love the land and hate to leave when it's time to come back to America, but Ephraim must be not just a people, but a Torah people, before we may go home as a people.  We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we once again defile that which is precious.  
 
There may certainly be non-Jewish individuals that believe that they are ready to live in the land and believe that they are committed enough and Torah minded enough, but what about the rest of the northern tribes?  If we go just for ourselves, to fulfill our own needs or desires, we are leaving behind the rest of the Northern Kingdom.  It is this kind of thing that cost us our citizenship 2,700 years ago.  
 
When I begin to teach a new student, I always tell them first, "This is not about you, it is about us.  Torah is not about you, it is about us." This is why I prefer to say that we are of the House of Yosef, with the emphasis being on "the house."  It is the houses that must be joined together, as well as individuals.  The House of Yehudah is easily identifiable, but the House of Yosef has not yet been defined.  Of course we can walk in Torah, as that is the only way we will ever be defined, but we must stay in season.
 
Consider these passages from Sefer Yasher:
 

1 At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Yisraelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Yisrael, who were all of the tribe of Yoseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Yoseph.
2 For they said the period was completed which YAHWEH had appointed to the children of Yisrael in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham........
 

12 And on the second day the children of Gath sent to all the cities of the Philistines that they should come to their help, saying,
13 Come up unto us and help us, that we may smite the children of Ephraim who have come forth from Egypt to take our cattle, and to fight against us without cause.
14 Now the souls of the children of Ephraim were exhausted with hunger and thirst, for they had eaten no bread for three days. And forty thousand men went forth from the cities of the Philistines to the assistance of the men of Gath.
15 And these men were engaged in battle with the children of Ephraim, and YAHWEH delivered the children of Ephraim into the hands of the Philistines.
16 And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.
17 For this evil was from YAHWEH against the children of Ephraim, for they transgressed the word of YAHWEH in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which YAHWEH in the days of old had appointed to Yisrael....
19 And the slain of the children of Ephraim remained forsaken in the valley of Gath for many days and years, and were not brought to burial, and the valley was filled with men's bones.


I am not saying that this factual, but the idea is there that Ephraim has a tendency to move out of season.  Can we really decide that it is time for us to move to Eretz Yisrael and then do whatever is necessary to go?    And especially if we go from the valley full of dead men's bones to this valley:

1. Then the hand of YHWH came upon me and brought me out by YHWH?s wind and set me down in the middle of a level valley, and it [was] full of bones.
2. And He caused me to pass over them, around and around, and indeed, [there were] very many on the surface of the plain, and they were amazingly dry. 

3. Then He said to me, ?Son of Adam, can these bones come [back] to life?? And I said, ?O Master YHWH, [only] You know!?
4. So He said, ?Prophesy about these bones, and say to them, ?O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH! 
5. ?This is what the Master YHWH says to these bones: ?Watch! I will make breath enter into you, and you will come to life!
6. ??Then I will put sinews on you and make flesh come up onto you, and spread skin over you [to cover you], and I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am YHWH!?? 

7. So I prophesied as I was ordered, and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a rattling, and the bones began to come together, a bone to its [corresponding] bone!
8. Then, as I watched, sure enough, sinews and flesh came up and skin spread over them from above, but there was no breath in them.
9. So He told me, ?Prophesy to the wind! Prophesy, son of Adam, and say to the wind, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Come, O wind, from the four winds, and blow on these slain ones, so they may come to life!???
10. So I prophesied as He had ordered me, and the breath began to come into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet?a very, very vast army!
11. Then He told me, ?Son of Adam, these bones?they are the whole House of Israel. Indeed, they are saying, ?Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we have been separated to ourselves!?
12. ?Therefore, prophesy and tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch as I open your graves and make you come up from your graves, My people, and bring you to the soil of Israel.
13. ???Then you will know that I am YHWH, when I open your graves and cause you to ascend from your graves, My people! 

14. ???And I will put My breath in you and you will come to life, and let you remain on your own soil. Then you will know that I, YHWH, have spoken and have carried it out,? declares YHWH.??
15. Then the Word of YHWH came to me to say,
16. ?As for you, son of Adam, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ?For Yehudah and for the sons of Israel, his companions.? Then take one [more] stick and write on it, ?For Yoseyf, the stick of Efrayim, and the whole House of Israel, his companions.? 
17. ?Then bring the one close to the [other] one for yourself as one stick, and they will come to be united in your hand! 

18. ?Then when the sons of your people speak to you, saying, ?Won?t you inform us what these [mean] to you??,
19. ?tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch Me take the stick of Yoseyf, which is in the hand of Efrayim, along with the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them on it--the stick of Yehudah--and make them into one stick, and they will become one in My hand.?? 

20. ?Now the sticks on which you write must be in your hand for their eyes [to see].
21. ?And tell them, ?This is what the Master YHWH says: ?Watch! I am taking the descendants of Israel from among the nations into which they have gone, and will collect them from every side and bring them onto their own ground. 
22. ???Then I will make them into one nation in the Land?on the mountains of Israel?and one king will be king to all of them, and they will never again become two nations, nor will they any longer be halved into two kingdoms ever again.
23. ???And they will no longer be defiled with their rolling idols or their detestable things, or by any of their rebellions, but I will deliver them out of all their places of assembly in which they have sinned, and I will purify them so they can become a people for Me and I will come to be an Elohim to them,
24. ???with My servant David as king over them all, and they will walk in My legal procedures and guard My prescribed customs and carry them out. 
 
We can't return to the land until we do the first thing that the Prophet commanded, " O dry bones, listen to the word of YHWH!"  Then we must be fleshed out and made strong AS A PEOPLE in order to be joined back to the House of Yehudah.  I am not saying that this will magically take place.  To the contrary, like all kingdom things, it won't be done until we do it.  But unity is job one, not return.  And notice that there is no House of Noakh in this prophecy, just Yehudah and Ephraim.
 
That's my 2 shekels worth.
 
Web Hulon




From: dhcole1 at cox.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:55:00 -0600



"sigh"...........
dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Patty
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!


Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now.

Patty

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

Take care,

James


On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



Hey Hanoch,

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------
Hey John,

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselvesas to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

                Hanoch


On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

These points;

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: --------------

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism the precondition of peace unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies and this includes its own Arab citizens is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs depicted in their maps is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________





_______________________________________________




Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. Learn Now _______________________________________________






Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/f876780c/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:46:54 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:46:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191857o5c5215a3pb53cdb587fe8e1d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com><065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com>
	<855590370902191857o5c5215a3pb53cdb587fe8e1d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022020090346.23256.499E27AD000AA19A00005AD822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hmmm.  That's a convenient halachik twist.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Hey Patty - 

   Toda!  Ayala will be, G-d willing, 24 in June.  I, of course, became her dad right after my Bar Mitzvah, which is how I am now only 38.....

                   Hanoch  :-)


On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

What a wonderful group of young people! She looks so happy, congrats. How old is she?

Patty

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:30 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan

Ayala is 2nd from the right.....



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/8616dd91/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:50:40 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:50:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Rudy Update and Big BARUCH HASHEM!
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS14B370A612BFE70AD7998DBAB20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <022020090350.29120.499E288F000CBCC6000071C022218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Baruch HaShem Pat!

We are looking forward to seeing both of you in Charlotte in April.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patricia Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Hi All,

   Just to show you how great is our G-d.  I was praying for the "RIGHT' rehab center to send Rudy to when he was released from the hospital. I was praying, yet I was stressed out trying to find the place I thought would suit Rudy. It turned out that he went to the only one with an available bed, one I really wasn't interested in at all.  But then I learned that the head physical therapist is a man from our Jewish community, ISSI. and the head nurse on his unit is also Jewish. Issi told me that the therapy there is very aggressive and that all of the staff are in tune to PT's wishes, therefore,the patients are kept up and moving all day.  I haven't seen a program like it yet, and had no idea there was one.  But HaShem knew that Rudy really needs lots of encouragement to move and as everything HaShem does, when we let Him, it has turned out to be a perfect fit. And, it's only two miles from our home!  One of these days I'm going to give up trying to "help" HaShem with His work!

Humbled,
Linda

PS:  Rudy is doing amazingly well, physiclly and mentally.  Baruch HaShem!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/8bbee8db/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 19 21:55:19 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:55:19 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <7D1B0799557A469BB9800B784EB296F3@davesbook>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook><05ca01c992ce$be969e30$3bc3da90$@com>
	<7D1B0799557A469BB9800B784EB296F3@davesbook>
Message-ID: <022020090355.5893.499E29A50004E4440000170522218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Amein Dave.  Call ya tomorrow.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me of trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs. trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers, race, gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of DNA will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my part....nothing more, nothing less. 

one day at a time.    
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!


Translation, please? J
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
"sigh"...........
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now. 
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
 
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
 
Take care,
 
James
 
 
On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
 
Hey Hanoch,
 
I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that very reason.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 
Hey John,
 
      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.  But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
 
       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."  What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
 
        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
 
        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!  This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
 
        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).  So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....
 
        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
 
        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.  But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.
 
        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant future....
 
        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
 
        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.
 
          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
 
                Hanoch
 
 
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.
 
These points;
 
1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.
 
As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 
 
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.  They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.  The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.  But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
 



_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/28189eab/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Feb 19 22:01:55 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <7D1B0799557A469BB9800B784EB296F3@davesbook>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>	<05ca01c992ce$be969e30$3bc3da90$@com>
	<7D1B0799557A469BB9800B784EB296F3@davesbook>
Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>

Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to ?turn it all off? and ?Be
still and know that I am G-d?. Ps 46:10

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me of
trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers, race,
gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of DNA
will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
"right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
part....nothing more, nothing less. 

 

one day at a time.    

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Translation, please? J

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

"sigh"...........

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from
the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My
People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has
happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good
reason for now. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
"Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
"lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not
just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;

 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
(I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
-------------- 

 

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/> 




_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Feb 19 23:17:41 2009
From: bkgivin at charter.net (bkgivin at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:17:41 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Rudy Update and Big BARUCH HASHEM!
Message-ID: <20090220001741.C0WSM.1077907.root@mp18>

Linda, this is great news!  Baruch Hashem!!!  I am reminded of the saying, "let go and let G-d!"  How hard it is to do sometimes, but how blessed we are when we do it.  I am so happy to hear this.  You couldn't have special ordered a better set up, staff and all, than this!  Will continue praying for Rudy and his recovery progress, and for you, Linda.  Maybe now that you know that he is in such good hands, you can have more peace and get some quality rest.  
Love you and have a wonderful Shabbat Shalom...hugs and kisses to you both!
Betty/Elisheva

Patricia Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote: 
>       Hi All,
> 
>          Just to show you how great is our G-d.  I was praying for the "RIGHT' rehab center to send Rudy to when he was released from the hospital. I was praying, yet I was stressed out trying to find the place I thought would suit Rudy. It turned out that he went to the only one with an available bed, one I really wasn't interested in at all.  But then I learned that the head physical therapist is a man from our Jewish community, ISSI. and the head nurse on his unit is also Jewish. Issi told me that the therapy there is very aggressive and that all of the staff are in tune to PT's wishes, therefore,the patients are kept up and moving all day.  I haven't seen a program like it yet, and had no idea there was one.  But HaShem knew that Rudy really needs lots of encouragement to move and as everything HaShem does, when we let Him, it has turned out to be a perfect fit. And, it's only two miles from our home!  One of these days I'm going to give up trying to "help" HaShem with His work!
> 
>       Humbled,
>       Linda
> 
>       PS:  Rudy is doing amazingly well, physiclly and mentally.  Baruch HaShem!
>      



From sandrainglis at bigpond.com  Fri Feb 20 02:11:40 2009
From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:11:40 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
References: <20090220040202.OBIB9985.nskntingx01p.mx.bigpond.com@www2.sssecure.net>
Message-ID: <F780D916D1D746D08C9A8DE8BF58158D@SPLITPIN>

Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of 
time. I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor 
do I believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH 
will lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will 
in our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our 
heart. YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us 
and lead us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA 
tests to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. 
YeHoWaH will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the 
promised land. Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH 
will choose who enters the promised land and will bring them into the 
promised land and will untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through 
His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all off" and 
> "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
>
>
>
> Love & Blessings,
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
>
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me 
> of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers, 
> race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of 
> DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
>
>
>
> one day at a time.
>
> dave
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
>
> Translation, please? J
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
>
> "sigh"...........
>
> dave
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
>
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be "Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is with good
> reason for now.
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
>
>
>
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues 
> the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also 
> many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being 
> Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of 
> working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are 
> judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic 
> sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey Hanoch,
>
>
>
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define 
> that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for 
> that
> very reason.
>
>
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
>
> Hey John,
>
>
>
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending 
> it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.
>
>
>
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance 
> with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not 
> Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
>
>
>
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find 
> out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather 
> clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted 
> to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does 
> not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
>
>
>
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to 
> come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly 
> Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and 
> a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into 
> the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the 
> lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest 
> in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
>
>
>
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led 
> by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red 
> lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, 
> and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
>
>
>
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, 
> was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
>
>
>
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites." 
> As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a 
> group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 
> 'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 
> 'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they 
> are.
>
>
>
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak 
> of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
> future....
>
>
>
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 
> years -
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and 
> resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - 
> not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
>
>
>
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
>
>
>
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
>
>
>
>                Hanoch
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
>
>
>
> These points;
>
>
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to 
> which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
>
>
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this 
> leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her 
> friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
>
>
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
>
>
>
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
>
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published 
> a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
>
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli 
> solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the 
> Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long 
> term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
>
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be 
> preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
>
>
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, 
> law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a 
> second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
> existing Knesset.
>
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable 
> of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members 
> of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
>
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will 
> consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
>
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed 
> by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
>
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
>
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist 
> network
> west of the Jordan River.
>
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. 
> Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition 
> of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the 
> West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on 
> the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River 
> Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
>
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its 
> Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
>
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel 
> that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the 
> goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
>
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of 
> rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
>
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the 
> personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they 
> will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
>
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the 
> Temple
> Mount.
>
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
>
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would 
> diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment 
> on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews 
> could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the 
> past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
>
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
>
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to 
> which
> all other principles are subordinate.
>
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
>
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
>
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
>
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
>
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies 
> in
> their curriculum.
>
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
>
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
>
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not 
> designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
>
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, 
> February
> 16, 2009.
>
>
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>  _____
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 




From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 07:08:47 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:08:47 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] With her 2 Aussie roomates
In-Reply-To: <022020090308.7394.499E1E9A0004D0A300001CE222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902191833n586db808ked588a6fc6500c45@mail.gmail.com>
	<022020090308.7394.499E1E9A0004D0A300001CE222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <855590370902200508s4ba4527em5687bf50fe255846@mail.gmail.com>

Hey John -

     I have to be careful what I write - or Joe, Jessica, Catherine or one
of our other Aussie cousins will be very upset!  She said it was "tolerable
if eaten with toast."  However, Ayala is a bit of a picky eater - won't eat
leftovers, etc.  So I don't think we can consider her opinion very highly
here.  :-)

                        * Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:08 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

>  Did she like it?  We tried it back in the 80's, I actually liked it, but
> it's hard to find in Louisiana.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>
> Ayala is on the far right...they had her try Vegemite for Australia Day!
> :-)
>
> [image:
> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/1e870b15/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 07:11:11 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:11:11 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
In-Reply-To: <022020090346.23256.499E27AD000AA19A00005AD822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com>
	<855590370902191857o5c5215a3pb53cdb587fe8e1d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<022020090346.23256.499E27AD000AA19A00005AD822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <855590370902200511nb93d65ahf16a2d4caa506c40@mail.gmail.com>

Hey John -

    There's actually nothing Halachic involved - it's simply the 'New
Math.'   Weren't they teaching that in Brooklyn when we were mere lads??
:-)
                       *  Hanoch
*
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:46 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

>  Hmmm.  That's a convenient halachik twist.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> --------------
>
> Hey Patty -
>
>    Toda!  Ayala will be, G-d willing, 24 in June.  I, of course, became her
> dad right after my Bar Mitzvah, which is how I am now only 38.....
>
>                   * Hanoch*  :-)
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
>>  What a wonderful group of young people! She looks so happy, congrats.
>> How old is she?
>>
>>
>>
>> Patty
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
>> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:30 PM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
>>
>>
>>
>> Ayala is 2nd from the right.....
>>
>>
>>
>> [image:
>> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534]<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2577874&id=699766534&op=1&view=global&subj=699766534>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/dafcf1be/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb 20 07:23:51 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:23:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <F780D916D1D746D08C9A8DE8BF58158D@SPLITPIN>
Message-ID: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 
?
This tells me that I need to listen for?YHVH's call to either be a fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...


--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM

Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and lead
us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/9c8fe6d2/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb 20 09:06:39 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:06:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <F780D916D1D746D08C9A8DE8BF58158D@SPLITPIN>
	<193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c9936c$d6c53810$844fa830$@com>

Hi Glenn,

 

I think it is very interesting how Yeshua said he came for the ?lost sheep
of the House of Israel? and commissioned his disciples to become ?fishers of
men?. So now, 2,000 years later, millions of ?lost sheep? have a book in
their homes, the story of Yeshua and his Fisherman, with the Torah attached
to it.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:24 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!

 


Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall
no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of
the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of
Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had
driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to
their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and
they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall
hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of
the rocks. 

 

This tells me that I need to listen for YHVH's call to either be a
fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...



--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM

Hi,
 
I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of
time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our
heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and
lead
us at the right time.
 
We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA
tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out.
YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose
who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the
Tanakh.
 
Shalom all,
 
Sandra.
 
----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
 
 
> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/
5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 
 
 
_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/e74d075e/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb 20 10:25:40 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:25:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan
In-Reply-To: <855590370902200511nb93d65ahf16a2d4caa506c40@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902191829r462118b8yce5250fc2eed7022@mail.gmail.com><065e01c99304$152b95e0$3f82c1a0$@com><855590370902191857o5c5215a3pb53cdb587fe8e1d0@mail.gmail.com><022020090346.23256.499E27AD000AA19A00005AD822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902200511nb93d65ahf16a2d4caa506c40@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022020091625.6928.499ED983000B7DC500001B1022193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Yeah but I was a charter member of the summer school club.

;-{)}

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Hey John - 

    There's actually nothing Halachic involved - it's simply the 'New Math.'   Weren't they teaching that in Brooklyn when we were mere lads??   :-)
                         Hanoch


On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:46 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

Hmmm.  That's a convenient halachik twist.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 



Hey Patty - 

   Toda!  Ayala will be, G-d willing, 24 in June.  I, of course, became her dad right after my Bar Mitzvah, which is how I am now only 38.....

                   Hanoch  :-)


On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

What a wonderful group of young people! She looks so happy, congrats. How old is she?

Patty

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:30 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Studying Hebrew at Ulpan

Ayala is 2nd from the right.....



_______________________________________________





_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/36718b3e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 20 10:46:04 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:46:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS296D27834313AFA0689FEBAB30@phx.gbl>

Excellent, Glenn!  I think Jer 16:14 also warns us that after the fishers, come the hunters.  Somehow it seems better to be gathered by the net (hmmmmm, net= Net??), than to be hunted down.  Possibly the hunters will have a less than godly agenda, but will cause those who have not yet responded to do so as a way of escape?

Shabbat Shalom to all,

Pat


From: W Glenn Chatterton 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!


      Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 

      This tells me that I need to listen for YHVH's call to either be a fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...


      --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

        From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
        Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM


Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and lead
us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 


_______________________________________________
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/850c4212/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Fri Feb 20 10:50:15 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:50:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370902191727m45acd661ra4a5699dacb0c388@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com>
	<021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net>
	<05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com>
	<1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook>
	<BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl>
	<1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net>
	<766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 
	<855590370902191727m45acd661ra4a5699dacb0c388@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W39CB71396718B9495F4FCC5B30@phx.gbl>



 Shalom John and all,

I agree that the Avrahamic covenant is the key and that the life of Avraham is a beautiful and important example for us.  But the covenant of Avraham was inherited by Ya'acov, who became Yisrael.  Yisrael became twelve men and these twelve became scores and they eventually became millions.  The covenant is a shared covenant.

 

My point is that this can't just be about Avraham and can't just be about what is right for me and mine.   Of course we need individual relationship with the Creator, but that relationship is offered to us in the context of a national relationship.  We can all have individual relationships and still be "lo ammi."  We have to go beyond "MY relationship with MY Elohim" and consider OUR relationship with OUR Elohim.  

 

We should always strive to ascend to YHWH as individuals, but we also need to ascend as a people.  Most folks get to the place of the folks on this list by being willing to engage in original thought, by being rugged individuals.  This is necessary because there is no formal support system for non-Jews returning to Torah.  However at some point we must embrace being a part of the people from which we came.  Less me and mine and more us and ours.

 

I have been the rugged individual and I have lived in community with other Yosefites that put "us and ours" first.  We ascend much quicker and much more firmly in community than I ever did alone.  In our community we have a saying,"The Torah is not for you, the Torah is for us."


Exod 19:8
8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that YHWH has spoken we will do." So Moshe brought back the words of the people to YHWH. 

 

All the people answered together.  That is how Torah is to be accepted.  Even Avraham went about "obtaining souls." (Gen 12:5)  We see that when he set out to rescue Lot that he had with him 318 trained servants "from his own house." (Gen 14:14)  He too enjoyed community with those he had trained.  He was never a loner.

 

I have always looked for the words "personal ralationship" in the Tanakh.  I haven't been able to find them, and even the concept seems to only work when in the context of a national relationship.

 

If you follow the patterns in the Scriptures you will see that many times YHWH says that He will do something for Yisrael, then He expects Yisrael to begin to do it.  For example YHWH said that he would stretch out his hand against Pharoah, but He required Moshe to stretch out his hand.  He promised Yisrael in the wilderness that He would feed them, but He still required them to gather the mannah.  He said that he would drive out the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Jebusite, yet he required Yisrael to go to battle.

 

In order to be gathered, we must gather.  In order to be a people we must begin to be a people.  Then YHWH will do it.  Nothing will be accomplished if we rest on our personal relationships and do nothing about our national relationship.  This is what I see when I open the Torah.

 

Be blessed,

Web


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/8ba8ad66/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Fri Feb 20 10:53:34 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:53:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS296D27834313AFA0689FEBAB30@phx.gbl>
References: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<COL119-DS296D27834313AFA0689FEBAB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W40E4D41CC0C4A128B0C30FC5B30@phx.gbl>


Shalom, 

Here is something to consider about fishers and hunters.  Yisraelite fishers draw in their nets and then separate the clean from the unclean, throwing the unclean back out to sea.  

 

Yisraelite hunters seek out only that which is clean.

 

Web


From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:46:04 -0500


Excellent, Glenn!  I think Jer 16:14 also warns us that after the fishers, come the hunters.  Somehow it seems better to be gathered by the net (hmmmmm, net= Net??), than to be hunted down.  Possibly the hunters will have a less than godly agenda, but will cause those who have not yet responded to do so as a way of escape?
 
Shabbat Shalom to all,
 
Pat




From: W Glenn Chatterton 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!






Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 
 
This tells me that I need to listen for YHVH's call to either be a fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...


--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM

Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and lead
us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 


_______________________________________________





_______________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/0511a5ae/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 20 10:56:17 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:56:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W40E4D41CC0C4A128B0C30FC5B30@phx.gbl>
References: <193493.96447.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><COL119-DS296D27834313AFA0689FEBAB30@phx.gbl>
	<BAY107-W40E4D41CC0C4A128B0C30FC5B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS18241E12856055F5F00E2EBAB30@phx.gbl>

Great point, Web!  Was just reading your other email to us................love it!!!!           Pat


From: Ronnie Hulon 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:53 AM
To: roots of faith 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!


Shalom, 
Here is something to consider about fishers and hunters.  Yisraelite fishers draw in their nets and then separate the clean from the unclean, throwing the unclean back out to sea.  
 
Yisraelite hunters seek out only that which is clean.
 
Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:46:04 -0500


Excellent, Glenn!  I think Jer 16:14 also warns us that after the fishers, come the hunters.  Somehow it seems better to be gathered by the net (hmmmmm, net= Net??), than to be hunted down.  Possibly the hunters will have a less than godly agenda, but will cause those who have not yet responded to do so as a way of escape?

Shabbat Shalom to all,

Pat


From: W Glenn Chatterton 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!


      Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 

      This tells me that I need to listen for YHVH's call to either be a fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...


      --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

        From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
        Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM


Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and lead
us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 


_______________________________________________
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/294edbe7/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb 20 11:23:05 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W40E4D41CC0C4A128B0C30FC5B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <833816.20367.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

interesting how the pieces all fit... and all the more exciting when we have an inkling of what the puzzle will look like when completed...

--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

From: Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 10:53 AM




#yiv1336398609 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1336398609 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Shalom, 
Here is something to consider about fishers and hunters.? Yisraelite fishers draw in their nets and then separate the clean from the unclean, throwing the unclean back out to sea.? 
?
Yisraelite hunters seek out only that which is clean.
?
Web


From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:46:04 -0500


Excellent, Glenn!? I think Jer 16:14 also warns us that after the fishers, come the hunters.? Somehow it seems better to be gathered by?the net (hmmmmm, net= Net??), than to be hunted down.? Possibly the hunters will have a less than godly agenda, but will cause those who have not yet responded to do so as a way of escape?
?
Shabbat Shalom to all,
?
Pat




From: W Glenn Chatterton 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!






Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH , that it shall no more be said, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael out of the land of Egypt; 16:15 But, YHVH liveth, that brought up the children of Yisrael from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, says YHVH , and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 
?
This tells me that I need to listen for?YHVH's call to either be a fisher/hunter, or heed them when they are sent to me...


--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Some very good ideas!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:11 AM

Hi,

I do not think it matters whether Judah accepts Ephraim at this point of time.
I do not believe it is time for Ephraim and Judah to be reunited nor do I
believe it is time for Ephraim to return to the Land of Israel. YeHoWaH will
lead us back when it is time. All we have to do is seek YeHoWaH's will in
our lives, turn from idolatry and sin and return to YeHoWaH with all our heart.
YeHoWaH will raise up shepherds according to His own heart to feed us and lead
us at the right time.

We do not have to convince Judah that we are Ephraim. Nor do we need DNA tests
to prove who we are. YeHoWaH will call us and lead us and sort us out. YeHoWaH
will reunite Ephraim with Judah and will bring us back to the promised land.
Judah will have no say over who enters into the land. YeHoWaH will choose who
enters the promised land and will bring them into the promised land and will
untie Judah and Ephraim as He has prophesied through His prophets in the Tanakh.

Shalom all,

Sandra.

----- Original Message ----- From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. RE: Some very good ideas!! (Patty )
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:01:55 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to "turn it all
off" and "Be
> still and know that I am G-d". Ps 46:10
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
> observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
> when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me
of
> trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
> trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers,
race,
> gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of
DNA
> will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
> "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
> part....nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> one day at a time.
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Translation, please? J
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> "sigh"...........
> 
> dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we "feel" that we
are from
> the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be
"Not My
> People", living in exile, until YHWH's appointed time. And given
what has
> happened with the Russian "Jews", I think that maybe this is
with good
> reason for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Patty
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues
the
> best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
> arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
> Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the
only thing
> that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
> "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going
to be
> accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
> it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
> convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
> Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
> "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear,
and also many
> who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents
being Jewish,
> but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
> claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant
idea and
> beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
> DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of
working
> within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God
fearers" are judged
> by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the
dogmatic sense
> of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
> flexibility for people to find their respective ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Hanoch,
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
> do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
> Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define
that.
> But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
> to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for
that
> very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> Hey John,
> 
> 
> 
>      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had
been
> sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending
it
> out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
> But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
> saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important,
why.
> 
> 
> 
>       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
> me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
> ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
> 1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
> law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance
with
> Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
> Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not
Jewish,
> if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having
"Jewish blood."
> What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which
allows you,
> AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to
become
> Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.
> 
> 
> 
>        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
> thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find
out
> that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather
clause'
> works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
> let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having
converted to
> Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism
does not
> recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).
> 
> 
> 
>        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
> grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to
come
> to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
> This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly
Jews)
> from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and
a
> considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
> skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
> consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into
the
> IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
> this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of
the lyrics
> of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT
want
> to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest
in
> leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.
> 
> 
> 
>        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
> bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led
by
> Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red
lines'
> are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
> unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so
"yummy," does it?).
> So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes
to
> get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
> secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz,
Kadima, and
> yes, even a large part of the Likud....
> 
> 
> 
>        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
> as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and
then finding
> out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And
the
> reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli
government, was
> so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
> "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration
laws
> cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or
Ephramites." As
> long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
> But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of
the 21st
> Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or
American Jew)
> knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
> years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves
as to
> who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a
group
> of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
> Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites
'waking
> up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide
'Who
> is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I
have
> to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
> me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc. 
So what
> would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no
need for
> "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground
as they are.
> 
> 
> 
>        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
> Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak
of
> being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths,"
but they don't mean
> Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
> other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the
not-too-distant
> future....
> 
> 
> 
>        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years
-
> while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
> coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and
resolved,
> G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
> establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
> family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves -
not
> just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.
> 
> 
> 
>        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
> ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
> implementing ANYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
>          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah &
Israel),
> 
> 
> 
>                Hanoch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
> Israelites or Epraimites.
> 
> 
> 
> These points;
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
> Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this
leave
> me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her
friends
> (I'm not talking about the US government).
> 
> 
> 
> --
> John C.
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young
<youngbarzel at gmail.com>:
> -------------- 
> 
> 
> The Eidelberg Plan:
> A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
> February 16, 2009
> 
> In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published
a
> policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy." 
Yaalon's plan
> requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
> first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
> middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
> peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
> Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.
> 
> Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli
solution"
> (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the
Palestinians
> to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long
term,
> they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
> peaceful way."
> 
> Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement
"The
> Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less
than
> two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
> parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be
preceded
> by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
> institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
> Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
> the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
> of what I propose:
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions,
law-making
> and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
> Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a
second
> branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with
the
> existing Knesset.
> 
> Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers
and
> deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable
of
> exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
> corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members
of
> my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
> They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
> efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
> bureaucracy.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
> unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will
consist
> of professionals, not rival party leaders.
> 
> THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
> council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed
by
> the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
> 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
> systems currently used by the Court.
> 
> If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
> Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
> change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of
the
> public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
> undemocratic political and judicial institutions.
> 
> Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls
"The
> Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea
and
> Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
> geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
> their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
> whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
> Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's
only
> realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist
network
> west of the Jordan River.
> 
> Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy. Genuine
> realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
> appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
> empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition
of
> peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage
war
> for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the
West.
> The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on
the
> offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River
Jordan.
> But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
> political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
> execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.
> 
> In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with
its Arab
> enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
> Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
> much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
> are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
> witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which
would
> become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
> governance. Nor is this all.
> 
> We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
> insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel
that
> encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the
goal
> of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
> rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:
> 
> 1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
> leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
> speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of
rival
> clans called the "Palestinians."
> 
> 2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
> sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the
personal,
> religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they
will
> not vote in Israeli elections.)
> 
> 3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the
Temple
> Mount.
> 
> 4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
> (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
> permanently.)
> 
> 5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
> in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
> they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would
diminish
> the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and
encourage
> Jewish immigration to Israel.
> 6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment
on
> terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given
Israel's
> present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews
could
> be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
> prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the
past,
> and in greater number if offered generous incentives.
> 
> As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:
> 
> 1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
> commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to
which
> all other principles are subordinate.
> 
> 2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to
diminish the
> number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
> gentiles now residing in Israel.
> 
> 3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
> the Jewish character of the State
> 
> 4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
> nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act
of
> disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to
protect freedom
> of speech and press.)
> 
> 5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
> countless violations of building and zoning laws.
> 
> 6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
> Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish
studies in
> their curriculum.
> 
> 7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
> country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab
affairs.
> Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
> pride.
> 
> Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
> strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
> Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of
more
> than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
> many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
> only Jewish homeland.
> 
> Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not
designed
> for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in
number,
> revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.
> 
> *Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio,
February
> 16, 2009.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green)
> POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
> Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
> http://www.womeningreen.org <http://www.womeningreen.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
>  _____
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090219/5fcd2e83/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 10, Issue 97
> ****************************************
> 


_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out. _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/495b228a/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb 20 11:39:16 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:39:16 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W39CB71396718B9495F4FCC5B30@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com><021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net><05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook><BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl><1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net><766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<855590370902191727m45acd661ra4a5699dacb0c388@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W39CB71396718B9495F4FCC5B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <022020091739.9503.499EEAC3000782170000251F22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Web,

I think we are in violent agreement!  We are saying the same thing from two different directions.

I repeat, this is not about me and mine.  The community, whether in the Land or here, is made up of individuals and it's growth depends on those individuals doing the parts they are chosen to do.  In order to do that, they need to be depending on and developing thier individual relationships with HaShem or they will truly be moving on thier own.  I do not think that HaShem is just going to magically transport all of Israel to one big community one happy day.  He is going to require each of us to walk in our faith and obey our callings in order to build it (as should have been done long ago).

If that's not the issue you are trying to address then i have misunderstood and I apologize.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>: -------------- 


 Shalom John and all,
I agree that the Avrahamic covenant is the key and that the life of Avraham is a beautiful and important example for us.  But the covenant of Avraham was inherited by Ya'acov, who became Yisrael.  Yisrael became twelve men and these twelve became scores and they eventually became millions.  The covenant is a shared covenant.
 
My point is that this can't just be about Avraham and can't just be about what is right for me and mine.   Of course we need individual relationship with the Creator, but that relationship is offered to us in the context of a national relationship.  We can all have individual relationships and still be "lo ammi."  We have to go beyond "MY relationship with MY Elohim" and consider OUR relationship with OUR Elohim.  
 
We should always strive to ascend to YHWH as individuals, but we also need to ascend as a people.  Most folks get to the place of the folks on this list by being willing to engage in original thought, by being rugged individuals.  This is necessary because there is no formal support system for non-Jews returning to Torah.  However at some point we must embrace being a part of the people from which we came.  Less me and mine and more us and ours.
 
I have been the rugged individual and I have lived in community with other Yosefites that put "us and ours" first.  We ascend much quicker and much more firmly in community than I ever did alone.  In our community we have a saying,"The Torah is not for you, the Torah is for us."

Exod 19:8
8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that YHWH has spoken we will do." So Moshe brought back the words of the people to YHWH. 
 
All the people answered together.  That is how Torah is to be accepted.  Even Avraham went about "obtaining souls." (Gen 12:5)  We see that when he set out to rescue Lot that he had with him 318 trained servants "from his own house." (Gen 14:14)  He too enjoyed community with those he had trained.  He was never a loner.
 
I have always looked for the words "personal ralationship" in the Tanakh.  I haven't been able to find them, and even the concept seems to only work when in the context of a national relationship.
 
If you follow the patterns in the Scriptures you will see that many times YHWH says that He will do something for Yisrael, then He expects Yisrael to begin to do it.  For example YHWH said that he would stretch out his hand against Pharoah, but He required Moshe to stretch out his hand.  He promised Yisrael in the wilderness that He would feed them, but He still required them to gather the mannah.  He said that he would drive out the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Jebusite, yet he required Yisrael to go to battle.
 
In order to be gathered, we must gather.  In order to be a people we must begin to be a people.  Then YHWH will do it.  Nothing will be accomplished if we rest on our personal relationships and do nothing about our national relationship.  This is what I see when I open the Torah.
 
Be blessed,
Web





Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. See how it works. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/c3f60014/attachment.html 

From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 13:02:28 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:02:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
Message-ID: <978518.4685.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Shalom All,
?
I think that many view the Bnai Noach framework as a means to shut down the dialogue. As a non jew am I only allowed to learn and live the 7 Noachide Laws and forbidden to learn all of Torah? Did Hashem call only the Israelites to the base of the mountain or did he call all of the mixed multitude? The Book of Acts is all about the struggle of how to fit together the jew and non jew who want to follow the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Did the council of Jerusalem give out the 7 Noach Laws as a minumum requirement to allow fellowship between jews and non jews so that the non jews could learn more and more from the jews who had been living the faith or was that it for the non jew? We continue to struggle with these same issues today. The problem is, is that if the branches aren't allowed to cling and learn from the root there is trouble!
?
Susie

--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa. Tcom> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:01 PM








Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to ?turn it all off? and ?Be still and know that I am G-d?. Ps 46:10
?
Love & Blessings,
Patty
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
?

Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah observant people) must wait (while being prepared)?for the appointed time when the one that created,?sorts out this ID problem.? Sort of reminds me of?trying to figure?out ways of knowing?the perfect will for our lives vs. trust and blind faith.? This I do know.....politics, policies,?powers, race, gender,?citizenship,?nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of DNA will not matter at that apointed time.? I simply want to?do whats "right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my part....nothing more, nothing less.?

?

one day at a time.??? 

dave


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

?
Translation, please? J
?
Patty
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
?

"sigh"...........

dave


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

?
Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good reason for now. 
?
Patty
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
?
I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say "Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of "lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish, but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who claim to be
 "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

?

Take care,

?

James

?

?


On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
?


Hey Hanoch,

?

I understand the problem.? Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to do with the problems of labels in general.? I allow myself to be called an Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that. But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because to other folks it carries other connotations.? I don't like labels for that very reason.

?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Hey John,

?

????? I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.? But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

?

???????Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow?me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated, ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in 1948.? It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with Jewish law) the right of citizenship.? However, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish, if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."? What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you, AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

?

????????This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel, thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out that they actually are not.? A live example of how this 'grandfather clause' works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman; let's assume they marry.? Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

?

????????Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws, grandchildren, etc) would still?be eligible under the Law of Return to come to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!? Ever!? This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews) from the former Soviet Union.? Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.? Hence, the skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.? Is this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.? They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.? They have no interest in leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

?

????????It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.? Among his party 'red lines' are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).? So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and yes, even a large part of the Likud....

?

????????But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.? Very, very sad.? And the reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the "Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

?

??????? Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."? As long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.? But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st Century!? No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew) knows who you/they are!? One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16 years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to who they are, and what that means.? I have yet (personally) to meet a group of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United Israel World Union!?? We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking up; to who they are, or might be.? Right now - who would get to decide 'Who is an Ephramite?'? I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from
 a Rabbi that knows me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.? So what would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'? Eventually, there will be no need for "proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

?

????????In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is Judaism.? Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each other?? That's where the future comes in;? and I mean the not-too-distant future....

?

????????John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years - while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.? The End Days are coming...heck, they're already HERE!?? This will be addressed and resolved, G-d willing, very soon.? For now, we can deal with the Israeli establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the family.? Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

?

????????And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from implementing ANYTHING.

?

??????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

?

????????????????Hanoch

?
?

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish Israelites or Epraimites.

?

These points;


?

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

?

As far as I know I am a gentile.? But also, as far as I know, I stand with Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.? Where does this leave me?? I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends (I'm not talking about the US government).

?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


?
The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009
In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."? Yaalon's plan requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.? Needed first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and peace?precondition of responsible self-government.? Israelis and Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution" (February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term, they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.? To expect Israel to implement "The Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political parties is hardly realistic.? Any solution to the conflict must be preceded by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.? Of course, institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue. Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.? Here is a summary of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.? They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act 1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and Samaria.?? I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and geo-strategic grounds.? It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo their religion and become bourgeois democrats.? There is no evidence whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while Islam is achieving global power.? I therefore contend that Israel's only realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.? Genuine realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their appetite for further aggression.? Genuine realists know there are no empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.? The West is steeped in denial.? Israel must awaken the West by going on the offensive.? It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.? But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more Jewish.?? The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.? The February 10 election witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would become even more united and effective under my proposed system of governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.? Since the goal of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist leadership.? This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal, religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. (This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past, and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs. Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.?? But the Yaalon strategy is a strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.? It would yield much of Israel's heartland to the Arabs.? It would require the expulsion of more than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed for "men without chests."? But the Jewish people, though few in number, revolutionized humanity.?? Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February 16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org



_______________________________________________
?
_______________________________________________
?



_______________________________________________



______________________________________________________________________________________________



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/5ee08e0f/attachment.html 

From webhulon at msn.com  Fri Feb 20 13:08:08 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:08:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <022020091739.9503.499EEAC3000782170000251F22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <855590370902181923o2265c5fu748c39bba32bfb73@mail.gmail.com><021920090345.27316.499CD5C40006C44000006AB422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><855590370902190527s6c8b8d1pa0ee61021bb72e06@mail.gmail.com><021920091435.6479.499D6E4D000D37930000194F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><D7A6A148-40A1-436F-B1F3-F11E894B5D9A@earthlink.net><05ad01c992bf$f3ceb970$db6c2c50$@com><1C2C20893F4C4A289F49BC7A8DFAA24E@davesbook><BAY107-W19AF84BA89235C005ED6B5C5B20@phx.gbl><1DFC7471-B57F-43A8-95D9-954BBA0D88EB@earthlink.net><766089.55538.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<855590370902191727m45acd661ra4a5699dacb0c388@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W39CB71396718B9495F4FCC5B30@phx.gbl> 
	<022020091739.9503.499EEAC3000782170000251F22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W14B2687F77FFADEB0B6FF8C5B30@phx.gbl>


John,

Amein v' amein!

Web
 


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:39:16 +0000



Web,
 
I think we are in violent agreement!  We are saying the same thing from two different directions.
 
I repeat, this is not about me and mine.  The community, whether in the Land or here, is made up of individuals and it's growth depends on those individuals doing the parts they are chosen to do.  In order to do that, they need to be depending on and developing thier individual relationships with HaShem or they will truly be moving on thier own.  I do not think that HaShem is just going to magically transport all of Israel to one big community one happy day.  He is going to require each of us to walk in our faith and obey our callings in order to build it (as should have been done long ago).
 
If that's not the issue you are trying to address then i have misunderstood and I apologize.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 
-------------- Original message from Ronnie Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>: -------------- 




 Shalom John and all,
I agree that the Avrahamic covenant is the key and that the life of Avraham is a beautiful and important example for us.  But the covenant of Avraham was inherited by Ya'acov, who became Yisrael.  Yisrael became twelve men and these twelve became scores and they eventually became millions.  The covenant is a shared covenant.
 
My point is that this can't just be about Avraham and can't just be about what is right for me and mine.   Of course we need individual relationship with the Creator, but that relationship is offered to us in the context of a national relationship.  We can all have individual relationships and still be "lo ammi."  We have to go beyond "MY relationship with MY Elohim" and consider OUR relationship with OUR Elohim.  
 
We should always strive to ascend to YHWH as individuals, but we also need to ascend as a people.  Most folks get to the place of the folks on this list by being willing to engage in original thought, by being rugged individuals.  This is necessary because there is no formal support system for non-Jews returning to Torah.  However at some point we must embrace being a part of the people from which we came.  Less me and mine and more us and ours.
 
I have been the rugged individual and I have lived in community with other Yosefites that put "us and ours" first.  We ascend much quicker and much more firmly in community than I ever did alone.  In our community we have a saying,"The Torah is not for you, the Torah is for us."

Exod 19:8
8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that YHWH has spoken we will do." So Moshe brought back the words of the people to YHWH. 
 
All the people answered together.  That is how Torah is to be accepted.  Even Avraham went about "obtaining souls." (Gen 12:5)  We see that when he set out to rescue Lot that he had with him 318 trained servants "from his own house." (Gen 14:14)  He too enjoyed community with those he had trained.  He was never a loner.
 
I have always looked for the words "personal ralationship" in the Tanakh.  I haven't been able to find them, and even the concept seems to only work when in the context of a national relationship.
 
If you follow the patterns in the Scriptures you will see that many times YHWH says that He will do something for Yisrael, then He expects Yisrael to begin to do it.  For example YHWH said that he would stretch out his hand against Pharoah, but He required Moshe to stretch out his hand.  He promised Yisrael in the wilderness that He would feed them, but He still required them to gather the mannah.  He said that he would drive out the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Jebusite, yet he required Yisrael to go to battle.
 
In order to be gathered, we must gather.  In order to be a people we must begin to be a people.  Then YHWH will do it.  Nothing will be accomplished if we rest on our personal relationships and do nothing about our national relationship.  This is what I see when I open the Torah.
 
Be blessed,
Web





Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. See how it works. 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/b77bbffe/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Feb 20 13:24:03 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:24:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
In-Reply-To: <978518.4685.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <000c01c9930f$fa747b20$ef5d7160$@com>
	<978518.4685.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c901c99390$cc223f60$6466be20$@com>

Hi Susie, I posted this verse from Isaiah 56 that I think addresses this
very well:

 

 [1] Thus says YHWH, Keep judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near
to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
[2] Blessed is the man that does this, and the son of man that lays hold on
it; that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and keeps his hand from doing
any evil.
[3] Neither let the son of the stranger (foreigner), that has joined himself
to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people:
neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus says YHWH, unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose
the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a
name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting
name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger (foreigner), that join themselves to YHWH,
to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one
that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer
for all people.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 


Shalom All,

 

I think that many view the Bnai Noach framework as a means to shut down the
dialogue. As a non jew am I only allowed to learn and live the 7 Noachide
Laws and forbidden to learn all of Torah? Did Hashem call only the
Israelites to the base of the mountain or did he call all of the mixed
multitude? The Book of Acts is all about the struggle of how to fit together
the jew and non jew who want to follow the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Did the council of Jerusalem give out the 7 Noach Laws as a minumum
requirement to allow fellowship between jews and non jews so that the non
jews could learn more and more from the jews who had been living the faith
or was that it for the non jew? We continue to struggle with these same
issues today. The problem is, is that if the branches aren't allowed to
cling and learn from the root there is trouble!

 

Susie

--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa. Tcom> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:01 PM

Hey Dave, I am with you here. Sometimes we have to ?turn it all off? and ?Be
still and know that I am G-d?. Ps 46:10

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hey Patty....that was just a sigh....mostly about labels, how we (Torah
observant people) must wait (while being prepared) for the appointed time
when the one that created, sorts out this ID problem.  Sort of reminds me of
trying to figure out ways of knowing the perfect will for our lives vs.
trust and blind faith.  This I do know.....politics, policies, powers, race,
gender, citizenship, nationality, even tribal affiliation with proof of DNA
will not matter at that apointed time.  I simply want to do whats
"right".......so I guess that was a sigh of frustration on my
part....nothing more, nothing less. 

 

one day at a time.    

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> Patty 

To:  <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:14 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Translation, please? J

 

Patty

 

From:  <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]
On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:55 PM
To:  <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

"sigh"...........

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> Patty 

To:  <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

Hi, I am of the belief that no matter how much we ?feel? that we are from
the Tribes and how much we long to live in the Land, we are to be ?Not My
People?, living in exile, until YHWH?s appointed time. And given what has
happened with the Russian ?Jews?, I think that maybe this is with good
reason for now. 

 

Patty

 

From:  <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]
On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!

 

I think given the historical realities involved in these complex issues the
best thing to work for is some official acceptance, under some kind of
arrangement, of non-Jews (even if they think they are from the "Lost
Tribes") to become citizens of Israel as B'nai Noach. It is the only thing
that makes sense halachically, and there is no way that non-Jews who say
"Oh, I think I am probably from the tribe of Ephraim," are going to be
accepted legally--and maybe this is with good reason when you think about
it. After all, does being part of Israel, a Jewish State, depend on inner
convictions? By the same right someone could say, Oh, I just feel I am
Jewish, with no evidence offered. I do indeed think there are millions of
"lost" Israelites in the world, the Prophets make that clear, and also many
who are "Jewish" who do not have evidence of the grandparents being Jewish,
but a state has to run by demonstrable laws. Also, so many of those who
claim to be "Ephraimites" do it on the basis of a two covenant idea and
beliefs about Yeshua as Messiah. In the end, something else, perhaps even
DNA, has to come into play, but for now there is the possibility of working
within a B'nai Noach framework, and remember, such "God fearers" are judged
by their conduct and Torah lifestyle, not by "beliefs" in the dogmatic sense
of creeds--other than the One God idea. This offers a great deal of
flexibility for people to find their respective ways.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:35 AM,  <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

Hey Hanoch,

 

I understand the problem.  Part of the issue on the Ephraimite side has to
do with the problems of labels in general.  I allow myself to be called an
Ephraimite for now because most of us on this list know how we define that.
But in reality, outside of our group it would pose problems for me because
to other folks it carries other connotations.  I don't like labels for that
very reason.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <
<mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com> youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Hey John,

 

      I'm really glad you touched on those two points - I actually had been
sitting on the article (no, not literally!) for two days (before sending it
out) for the very reasons you touched upon, not wanting to offend anyone.
But it now gives me a chance to elaborate on what Professor Eidelberg was
saying, and what he didn't touch upon - and, probably more important, why.

 

       Firstly, the Law of Return (Chok HaShvut) which is what will allow
me, as a Jew, to come to Israel and become a citizen is an outdated,
ineffectual compromise with the political system of Israel, as it was in
1948.  It should have allowed any Halachic Jew (a Jew according to Jewish
law - born of a Jewish mother, or having had a conversion in accordance with
Jewish law) the right of citizenship.  However, in the aftermath of the
Holocaust, it was thought that how could Israel declare someone not Jewish,
if Hitler would have had them killed 'as Jews,' for having "Jewish blood."
What that turned out to be is the "Grandfather clause" - which allows you,
AND YOUR EXTENDED FAMILY (under a 'family union' provision) to become
Israelis if you had ONE Jewish grandparent.

 

        This has created a nightmare of having people grow up in Israel,
thinking that they are Jewish, but when it comes time to marry, to find out
that they actually are not.  A live example of how this 'grandfather clause'
works is the following: My brother is living with a Greek-Orthodox woman;
let's assume they marry.  Now Helen's mother is Jewish, having converted to
Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry Helen's father (however, Judaism does not
recognize a Jew 'converting' to another faith).

 

        Okay, years from now, her sons (and their wives, in-laws,
grandchildren, etc) would still be eligible under the Law of Return to come
to Israel - even with no Jewish affiliation in their lives AT ALL!  Ever!
This is what happened with the mass immigration of people (ostensibly Jews)
from the former Soviet Union.  Somewhere around 350,000 are not Jews, and a
considerable number of them came just to get our of the USSR.  Hence, the
skinhead Neo-Nazi gangs, the explosion in prostitution, the skyrocketing
consumption of pork and pork products, and soldiers being inducted into the
IDF requesting to be sworn in, NOT ON A TANACH, but a New Testament.  Is
this the State that "the heart of a Jew yearns for...?" (some of the lyrics
of Hatikva, Israel's National Anthem.  They do NOT fit in, and do NOT want
to be in a country that emphasizes Jewish values.  They have no interest in
leading a Torah lifestyle - however you want to define it.

 

        It has changed much of the character of Israel, and as a voting
bloc, these former Soviets have created parties like Yisrael Beitenu led by
Avigdor Lieberman, who is an avowed secularist.  Among his party 'red lines'
are civil marriage (which does not exist in Israel for Jews) and the
unrestricted sale of pork products (doesn't sound so "yummy," does it?).
So, this law needs to be changed, but there simply aren't enough votes to
get it passed in the Kenesset, and it certainly isn't supported by the
secular, 'Hellenized,' leftist elite who compose Labor, Meretz, Kadima, and
yes, even a large part of the Likud....

 

        But it is a tragedy in the making, young boys and girls, growing up
as 'Israelis" - speaking Hebrew, serving in the Army, etc and then finding
out that their mom's a not Jewish, for instance.  Very, very sad.  And the
reason that they were "recruited" in the USSR by the Israeli government, was
so that there could be a large number of WHITE immigrants, instead of the
"Jews of Color" from Ethiopia, Burma/India, etc.

 

        Now John, there's nothing to say that any of the immigration laws
cannot be changed to accommodate "non-Jewish Israelites or Ephramites."  As
long as they are not missionaries for Jesus....which is prohibited by law.
But frankly, "Ephramites" are one of the best kept secrets of the 21st
Century!  No one (the "average non-'religious' Israeli, or American Jew)
knows who you/they are!  One of my biggest frustrations over the last 16
years is that we can't even get Ephramites to agree among themselves as to
who they are, and what that means.  I have yet (personally) to meet a group
of Ephramites outside of a UIWU meeting who have even HEARD of the United
Israel World Union!   We are still in the early stages of Ephramites 'waking
up; to who they are, or might be.  Right now - who would get to decide 'Who
is an Ephramite?'  I know that for me to become an Israeli citizen, I have
to show proof of my Jewishness (including a letter from a Rabbi that knows
me!), my Ketubah (marriage 'contract'), my parents Ketubah, etc.  So what
would an Ephramite use as 'proof?'  Eventually, there will be no need for
"proof" - but what do we do know - with the facts of the ground as they are.

 

        In Israel, whether people celebrate or observe it, the religion is
Judaism.  Among Ephramites (on this very list, for example) people speak of
being "Torah Observant," or following "Ancient Paths," but they don't mean
Judaism - so how could we as a UNITED Hebrew people integrate among each
other?  That's where the future comes in;  and I mean the not-too-distant
future....

 

        John, these are issues that have laid dormant for over 3,000 years -
while the modern State of Israel is barely 60 years old.  The End Days are
coming...heck, they're already HERE!   This will be addressed and resolved,
G-d willing, very soon.  For now, we can deal with the Israeli
establishment, but we need to FOCUS more on the Ephramite side of the
family.  Get some unity, get some conversations going among themselves - not
just with "Judah," although that's a good thing too.

 

        And one last thing bro - Professor Eidelberg listed some
ideas....Israel, for better, or for worse, is a long way away from
implementing ANYTHING.

 

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),

 

                Hanoch

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:45 PM, < <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I agree with all points except that no room is left for non-jewish
Israelites or Epraimites.

 

These points;

 

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

 

As far as I know I am a gentile.  But also, as far as I know, I stand with
Israel more staunchly than some of her own citizens.  Where does this leave
me?  I understand Israel's cynacism but she is wrong to exclude her friends
(I'm not talking about the US government).

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <
<mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com> youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

 

The Eidelberg Plan:
A Jewish Solution to the Conflict*
February 16, 2009

In December 2008, former IDF Chief of Staff L. Gen. Moshe Yaalon published a
policy paper "Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy."  Yaalon's plan
requires a democratic metamorphosis of the Palestinian Authority.  Needed
first, he says, is economic prosperity among the Palestinians to produce a
middle class society inclined to moderation, the rule of law, and
peace?precondition of responsible self-government.  Israelis and
Palestinians will then arrive at a peaceful settlement of their conflict.

Caroline Glick agrees. In her Jerusalem Post article "The Israeli solution"
(February 2, 2009), she says, "It is obvious today that for the Palestinians
to develop into a society that may be capable of statehood in the long term,
they require a period of a generation or two to rebuild their society in a
peaceful way."

Yaalon and Glick need to think again.  To expect Israel to implement "The
Israeli solution" when the average duration of its government is less than
two years and when its cabinet consists of five or more rival political
parties is hardly realistic.  Any solution to the conflict must be preceded
by basic reform of Israel's governing institutions.  Of course,
institutions, however well-designed, do not guarantee wisdom and virtue.
Nevertheless, if well-designed, they increase the probability of obtaining
the quality of government needed to solve the conflict.  Here is a summary
of what I propose:


PARLIAMENT. The parliament will be bicameral. Its two functions, law-making
and administrative overview, will be divided between two assemblies, a
Senate and a House of Representatives. To anticipate objections to a second
branch of parliament without law-making power, let's compare it with the
existing Knesset.

Roughly 25 percent of the Knesset's 120 members are cabinet ministers and
deputy ministers. Since they are party leaders, the Knesset is incapable of
exercising the important function of administrative overview?which is why
corruption in government is so widespread in Israel. In contrast, members of
my proposed House of Representatives will be excluded from the cabinet.
They will be free to determine whether the laws are being faithfully and
efficiently administered?and they will have subpoena powers to grill the
bureaucracy.

THE GOVERNMENT. A presidential system will replace Israel's inept and
unstable system of multi-party cabinet government. The cabinet will consist
of professionals, not rival party leaders.

THE SUPREME COURT. Judges will be nominated by the President (advised by a
council learned in Jewish and secular law). Nominations will be confirmed by
the Senate in public hearings. Consistent with the Foundation of Law Act
1980, Jewish law will be first among equals vis-?-vis the foreign legal
systems currently used by the Court.

If it would take one or two generations to democratize the Palestinian
Authority, surely it would take less than a year or another election to
change Israel's system of governance, since more than 50 percent of the
public is more or less disgusted with Israel's corrupt as well as
undemocratic political and judicial institutions.

Now, it must be emphasized that the Yaalon plan, or what Glick calls "The
Israeli solution," endorses an eventual Arab-Muslim state in Judea and
Samaria.   I categorically reject such a state both on Jewish and
geo-strategic grounds.  It is utterly unrealistic to expect Arab to forgo
their religion and become bourgeois democrats.  There is no evidence
whatever to expect economic prosperity to trump Islam, especially while
Islam is achieving global power.  I therefore contend that Israel's only
realistic alternative is to destroy the PA and the entire terrorist network
west of the Jordan River.

Genuine realism requires a theological understanding of the enemy.  Genuine
realists know that territorial compromise with Muslims only whets their
appetite for further aggression.  Genuine realists know there are no
empirical grounds to expect Muslims to renounce Jihadism?the precondition of
peace?unless they are so devastated as to expunge their desire to wage war
for a hundred years?as the Allied powers did to Nazi Germany.

Israel, especially Jerusalem, is the focus of Islam's war against the West.
The West is steeped in denial.  Israel must awaken the West by going on the
offensive.  It must destroy the terrorist network west of the River Jordan.
But as I have indicated, this goal requires basic reform of Israel's
political system whose fragmented and transient nature precludes the
execution of any coherent and long-term national strategy.

In the final analysis, the only way to solve Israel's conflict with its Arab
enemies?and this includes its own Arab citizens?is to make Israel more
Jewish.   The institutional reforms I have proposed will contribute very
much to this objective because they will empower the people, most of whom
are to the right of Israel's ruling elites.  The February 10 election
witnessed the political power of Israel's right-minded public, which would
become even more united and effective under my proposed system of
governance. Nor is this all.

We need leaders who understand that it is precisely the failure of Jews to
insist on their God-given and exclusive ownership of the Land of Israel that
encourages Arabs to persist in their war against our people.  Since the goal
of the Arabs?depicted in their maps?is to conquer all of Palestine, a
rational government of Israel should adopt the following course of action:

1. Abrogate the Oslo Agreement and eliminate the entire terrorist
leadership.  This will demoralize the Arabs. No Arab leadership will
speedily arise and command the loyalty of the artificial collection of rival
clans called the "Palestinians."

2. With the PA destroyed, Israel's Government should declare Jewish
sovereignty over Yesha. (The Arabs in these areas will retain the personal,
religious, and economic rights they enjoyed under Israeli law, but they will
not vote in Israeli elections.)

3. The Government should establish unequivocal jurisdiction over the Temple
Mount.

4. It should move certain cabinet ministries to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
(This will convince Arabs that the Jews intend to remain in these areas
permanently.)

5. The Government should pass a Homestead Act and sell small plots of land
in Yesha at low prices to Jews in Israel and abroad with the proviso that
they settle on the land, say for a period of six years. This would diminish
the dangerous population density of Israel's large cities and encourage
Jewish immigration to Israel.
6. Develop model cities in Yesha by attracting foreign capital investment on
terms favorable to the investors. Based on experience, and given Israel's
present Gross Domestic Product of $170 billion, at least 150,000 Jews could
be settled in Judea and Samaria within a few years. Their presence will
prompt many more Arabs to leave, as tens of thousands have done in the past,
and in greater number if offered generous incentives.

As concerns Israel's itself, I advocate the following measures:

1. The Law of Return should make explicit that Israel is a Jewish
commonwealth, that its Jewish character is its paramount principle to which
all other principles are subordinate.

2. Amend the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return to diminish the
number of gentile immigrants, and devote the vast sums saved to assimilate
gentiles now residing in Israel.

3. Enforce Basic Law: The Knesset, which prohibits any party that negates
the Jewish character of the State

4. Enforce the 1952 Citizenship Law, which empowers the Government to
nullify the citizenship of any Israel national that commits "an act of
disloyalty to the State." (I would amend the term "act" to protect freedom
of speech and press.)

5. Put an end to the notorious tax evasion of Arab citizens and their
countless violations of building and zoning laws.

6. Terminate subsidies to, or expel, Arab university students who call for
Israel's destruction, and require Arab schools to include Jewish studies in
their curriculum.

7. Phase out U.S. military aid to Israel (now less than 1.5% of the
country's GDP), as well as American participation in Israel-Arab affairs.
Both undermine Israel's strategic interests as well as Jewish national
pride.

Of course, this is a grandiose project.   But the Yaalon strategy is a
strategy of retreat and Jewish self-effacement.  It would yield much of
Israel's heartland to the Arabs.  It would require the expulsion of more
than 100,000 Jews from their homes. It would discourage aliya and prompt
many Jews to leave Israel and thus lead to the termination of the one and
only Jewish homeland.

Yes, my Jewish solution to the conflict is grandiose, and it's not designed
for "men without chests."  But the Jewish people, though few in number,
revolutionized humanity.   Inspired by the Torah, we can do it again.

*Edited transcript of the Eidelberg Report, Israel National Radio, February
16, 2009.


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow  (Women in Green) 
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel 
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 
 <mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org> mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org
 <http://www.womeningreen.org/> http://www.womeningreen.org




_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

  _____  

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/21f3ce70/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 13:55:04 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:55:04 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] So, what are we waiting for??
Message-ID: <855590370902201155u2e4ede0anc606ab4e6bb187fa@mail.gmail.com>

 Iran stocks enough enriched uranium for first nuclear bomb

*DEBKAfile* Special Report

February 20, 2009, 2:36 PM (GMT+02:00)
[image: Iran's heavy water reactor at Arak before covered by a dome]

Iran's heavy water reactor at Arak before covered by a dome

The UN's nuclear watchdog reported Thursday, Feb. 19, that Iran's production
of enriched uranium had been underestimated. It has stocked more than one
tonne of low enriched uranium hexafluoride at Natanz alone. If enriched, it
could produce more than 20 kilos of fissile material ? enough for a bomb.
French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner spoke Friday of a new enrichment
plant capable of housing thousands of centrifuges the Iranians had built at
a secret site, confirming long-held suspicions of sites that the UN
inspectors had not heard about.

This week Dr Mohammed ElBaradei, the international nuclear agency's director
said: "Iran right now is not providing any access, any clarification with
regards to the whole area of the possible military dimension.

They are not following what the Security Council asked us to do, that is
'please clarify this issue'."

Officials in Washington commented: There is a steady timeline of
improvement, especially in terms of mastering the efficiency of the
centrifuges, meaning that Iran has been able to increase its output of
enriched uranium."

*DEBKAfile* reported on Nov. 28, 2008, that by February, Iran would be able
to approach production of its first nuclear bomb after accumulating enough
enriched uranium.

The UN report also discloses that Iran had built a dome over its Arak heavy
water reactor, preventing satellites from taking images of the facility,

*DEBKAfile*'s military sources report that the Arak plant is the core of a
program for processing plutonium for military purposes. The dome was a major
project, but according to our sources, useless since both American and
Israeli satellites have instruments for penetrating the structure.

All these developments mean that Iran has reached a "breakout capacity" ? a
stage that would allow it to produce enough fissile material for a bomb.
This crosses a "red line" that for years Israel has said it would not
accept.

*DEBKAfile* adds: The Obama administration is working on its negotiating
stance ahead of direct dialogue with Iran in June, while Israel is plunged
in the hectic process of forming a coalition government after its Feb. 10
election. Our Washington sources add that President Barack Obama has not
broached the issue of uranium enrichment which brought forth UN Security
Council sanctions against Iran under his successor.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/7fe56379/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Feb 20 16:18:00 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:18:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideas!!
Message-ID: <006b01c993a9$19089a00$0400a8c0@marvin>

Many different view points and as I read the response?s I find it so
interesting how we are all standing / sitting  around the table sharing our
view and understanding of these complex issues,  and at the root of it all
is a search for truth and how to make that application in our personal
life?s.    Although, we could all find points to disagree with each other
on, if we wanted to pick each response apart. But as we sit at the table we
partake differently. Some eat little some eat more. Some take only and item
or two others want to taste everything on the table. Some, they will be in
your plate when you turn your head.  I?m reminded of the passage in
Habakkuk, he being  one of the last prophets before the exile and then also
Jeremiah who I think was the last.  Think about these two prophets speaking
with YHVH and living in the world of their day and trying to comprehend what
God was telling them and then with their eyes open to look into the
future?..   and then relate to us [ write the vision] who were to come
later,  what God was telling, showing, sharing with them.  Think of the
prophets in their humanity, emotions, confusion, lack of clear
understanding.

[brackets mine]

Hab 1:2 O ????, till when shall I cry, and You not hear? I cry to You,
?Violence!? and You do not save. 

Hab 1:3 Why do You show me wickedness, and cause me to see perversity? [ The
prophet saw something and it disturbed him].  For ruin and violence are
before me. And there is strife, and contention arises. 

Hab 1:4 Therefore the Torah ceases, and right-ruling never goes forth. For
the wrong hem in the righteous, so that right-ruling comes out twisted. 

 

The prophet has voiced his complaint and the question has been asked. Now
for the response.

 

Hab 1:5 ?Look among the nations and see, and be amazed, be amazed! For a
work is being wrought in your days which you would not believe if it were
told.

 Hab 1:6 ?See, I am raising up the Chaldeans, a bitter and hasty nation, who
is going through the breadth of the earth, to possess dwelling places that
are not theirs. 

Hab 1:7 ?They are frightening and fearsome, their right-ruling and their
exaltation proceed from themselves. ?????..

 

Have you met a Chaldean lately?  They were the learned class; they were
priests, magicians or astronomers,  the learned and wise men.  Again the
conversation shifts back to the Prophet.

Hab 1:12 Are You not from everlasting, O ???? my Elohim, my Set-apart One?
You do not die!   [ The JPS, ASV and the KJV all translate this as ?we shall
not die?.]    O ????, You have appointed them for right-ruling, O Rock, You
have established them for reproof.  [right ruling and for correction, did I
read that correctly?]

 Hab 1:13 You, whose eyes are too clean to see evil, You are not able to
look on wrong. Why do You look on those who act treacherously ? keep silent
when the wrong devours one more righteous than he? [Is the oppressor,
consider less righteous, then the oppressed(Jews/sons of God)?  Would the
oppressor have any righteousness? The prophet doesn?t understand, why do the
clean eyes look upon those who act faithlessly, who act deceitfully?]

Hab 1:14 And would You make men like fish of the sea, like creeping
creatures that have no ruler over them? ?????

 

Habakkuk, the prophet is having a dialogue with the YHVH. Can we really
comprehend what is happening here in the text.?   How

awesome and humbling for a man to experience this!   But, even with all the
dialogue still the cry of the prophet , ? O LORD how long??  

Imagine Habakkuk going up into his tower and searching the stars in the
night sky as he looks and awaits an answer to his question.

 

Hab 2:1  I stand at my watch, and station myself on the watch-tower, and
wait to see what He says to me, and what to answer when I am reproved. 

Hab 2:2 And ???? answered me and said, ?Write the vision and inscribe it on
tablets, so that he who reads it runs. 

Hab 2:3 ?For the vision is yet for an appointed time, and it speaks of the
end, and does not lie. If it lingers, wait for it, for it shall certainly
come, it shall not delay. 

Hab 2:4 ?See, he whose being is not upright in him is puffed up. But the
righteous one lives by his steadfastness. 

 

Ronnie said: We must be committed to Torah AND TO ONE ANOTHER! Otherwise, we
once again defile that which is precious.  

 

Hanoch said: I think you?re 100% correct that we need to focus on what?s
most important - our relationship to HaShem, and to HIS Torah.

 

It started with Abraham, then Sarai, then Isaac, next 318 servants then as
the sand of the sea.    Twenty years or so ago, hardly any? now there are
many, next year?.. who knows, but they are coming. As I said earlier,  we
must try to help those coming up behind us and at the same time run harder
to catch up with those who have gone on before.

 

Shalom and have a blessed Shabbat,

Marvin

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090220/73173662/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 21 08:39:46 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:39:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rediscovering the Ebionites
Message-ID: <46045980-D85A-4164-A32F-66DEA8944541@earthlink.net>

Most of you have heard of the Ebionites. These were the ancient  
followers of Yeshua who were led by James his brother and his  
successors for several hundred years. They saw Jesus as a "prophet  
like Moses," kept the Torah, considered the priests of the Herodian  
Temple as corrupt, and opposed Paul and the Christianity that  
developed through his followers. They were strongly persecuted by the  
emerging Catholic church from the 2nd through the 5th centuries, then  
largely died out, or survived in pockets that history did not record.  
If you want to refresh your memory about this ancient movement you can  
see my article at http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/ebionites.html 
. I also discuss them a bit in my book The Jesus Dynasty, in chapter 18.

Recently I have been in e-mail contact with Shemayah Phillips, who is  
the teacher and leader of a modern Ebionite group. See ebionite.org  
for details (ebionite.com is very different group). We have had a  
really fruitful discussion and I have spend a bit of time browsing his  
Web site. Shemayah is a very well read and thoughtful scholar of the  
Torah and ancient religion and history. His writings are solid, in- 
depth, and well worth reading. I sent him a copy of my book, Restoring  
Abrahamic Faith, and finds himself in substantial agreement, see http://genesis2000.org/endorsements-links/ 
  where I have posted his review. I wanted to just call attention to  
the Ebionite Web site and in particular the following two articles,  
though there is much more of interest for browsing:

http://ebionite.org/Publication1sacrifices.pdf

http://ebionite.org/Commandmentbook.pdf

The first is on the whole concept of "sacrifices" and the forgiveness  
of sins. I cover this very briefly in the last chapter of my book,  
RAF, but this is a much more thorough study. I think this one subject  
is probably more controversial than any other I can think of among the  
various diverse mix of former Christians who are returning to various  
versions of the ancient Hebrew faith.  If you want some enlightening  
special reading this Shabbat I highly recommend it.

The other is a very nice treatment of the mitzvot, from various  
perspectives, and with an academic underpinning, which is rare for  
groups that take the Torah seriously.

I hope you might explore these things and benefit as I have done.

Shabbat Shalom,

James




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090221/26704a54/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 21 09:15:45 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 01:15:45 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Another Rudy Update and Big BARUCH HASHEM!]
Message-ID: <49A01AA1.30608@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/287e7b8b/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Patricia Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Rudy Update and Big BARUCH HASHEM!
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:51:17 -0500
Size: 8364
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/287e7b8b/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 21 09:15:54 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 01:15:54 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideals
Message-ID: <49A01AAA.4000800@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/f342d2fc/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 21 09:27:51 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 01:27:51 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] WRESTLING WITH ANGELS.
Message-ID: <49A01D77.1030008@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/e975f9a4/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 21 09:56:05 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:56:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some very good ideals
In-Reply-To: <49A01AAA.4000800@westnet.com.au>
References: <49A01AAA.4000800@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <90EAD4F7-A122-47FF-B62F-C174A662A3A2@earthlink.net>

Thanks for all these thoughts Joe and your always thorough and  
insightful comments. I have not had the time to write more on this  
series of interesting exchanges sparked by Hanoch's posting of Prof.  
Eidelburg's piece.

One thing I did want to add quickly, having had quite a few decades of  
experiences with orthodox Rabbis who are teaching Gentiles, is that  
the rabbinic understanding of the prohibition of gentiles keeping  
Shabbat or learning Torah is understood in the context of "casting  
pearls before swine." It has a specific historical setting when Jews  
were separated from society and persecuted by the great Church--4th  
century C.E. There are many rabbis, all over the world, including  
those on the new Sanhedrin council in Israel, that not only are open  
to Gentiles drawing near to God and Torah, but have done much to  
facilitate such an endeavor. You can find much more information on the  
Web at sites like http://1stcovenant.org/ and http:// 
noahidenations.com/. There one finds archived a wealth of teaching and  
information related to these ideas. I think the only think the Rabbis  
have cautioned is that one not try to be "Jewish," in any observance,  
but honoring the Sabbath and other observances, as appropriate for non- 
Jews, is surely encouraged. There is even a Noahide prayerbook with  
prayers for festivals and Sabbath included. Further, the seven mitzvot  
are seen as categories, not a limited "do these seven" and forget the  
rest. In other words, under the broad categories of laws regarding  
idolatry, sexuality, theft, social justice, kindness to animals, etc.  
are hundreds of mitzvot and elaborations. Further, as someone said  
earlier, the basic "seven" are seen as just a minimal foundation, of  
one who is a "pagan," turning to God...you could call it a sort of  
beginning "clean up your life" operation. That seems to be the spirit  
of Acts 15 and the decision of Yaaqov, the brother of Yeshua. Paul  
reflects the same in his letters--turn from theft, idolatry, sexual  
immorality, etc. See the things he mentions in 1Corinthians 6.

As others have pointed out, and the Rabbis largely agree, the Tanakh  
as a whole is universal in scope and in the final analysis, "all  
nations" stream to Jerusalem to learn the ways of YHVH--Isa 2, Isa 56,  
Zech 14, etc. I might also point out that the word for "nation" and  
"gentile" are the same, and this single word even gets translated as  
"pagan" or "heathen," "stranger," but it is simply goy--and can apply  
to Israel as a "nation" or the "nations" as a whole. The context of  
the word is what carries the meaning--not the word itself. After all,  
Abram is told--I will make of you a great "goy." Clearly this does not  
mean his seed would become Gentiles!

As I have written, I am not a card-carrying anything, and I agree with  
most of what has been written in these posts. My only point in  
bringing up the Noahide category was that it is indeed a defined  
"identity" that orthodox Judaism uses to refer to folks who are  
devoted to the One God of Israel and are seeking to live an ethical  
life based on Torah principles. As such, the legal category already  
exists, whereas things like "Ephramite" or "part of the lost tribes"  
are subjective matters at this stage of history. The option of  
conversion to Judaism is another one that many have chosen. These  
choices are very individual matters and I think there is not a "one  
size fits all" to this. It is surely the case that there are people  
who should not be trying to "go to Israel," especially if they have no  
inner conviction that they should. Others have a burning in their  
bones that won't go out until they somehow get over there. It is the  
diversity of this Dialogue group, that Ross has fostered, that makes  
it really stand out to me. Most groups are closed, dogmatic, and of  
one perspective. Our little odd assortment of people seem to tolerate  
one another and be willing to learn from one another, but most of all  
walk in love and respect for one another.

Several have made the point that the massive return and union of the  
two houses is yet to come, and will likely come in ways that YHVH will  
orchestrate  beyond any of our imagination or efforts. I agree, and  
the prophets indicate just that sort of marvel--the "nation being born  
in a day," etc. Still, if you look at history, and even the partial/ 
preliminary return of Jews to the land over the past 150 years, there  
are also practical, political, and "human" efforts involved as well. I  
suspect the same will be operative with the multitudes of scattered  
"Israelites" as well as the many "sons of the stranger" that are draw  
to God and Torah, progressively, in our day and into the future.  
Sounds to me like we might be in the same sort of situation that  
closes the words of the Tanakh, and I use this on the last pages of my  
book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith--"Let him go up..." There are stages  
to all these things and there were in the first return as well.

Shabbat Shalom,

James


On Feb 21, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

> Shavua Tov Chaverim,
>
> thank you Hanoch for posting this very pertinent topic.
>
> I admire Professor Paul Eidelburg , a Political Science lecturer at  
> Bar-Ilan University.
>
> Whilst I have been away there has been much traffic on this subject  
> from members on this list.
> I feel the frustration and deep sentiment that many of you have all  
> expressed.
>
> What I am about to write are my own personal thoughts. As such ,they  
> are not meant in any shape or form to be a criticism of any opinions  
> that have been posted.
>
> I have come a long way over the past 12 and a half years, with much  
> more to learn and unlearn.
> My whole life changed when for no reason the revelations came thick  
> and fast.
> I am a completely different person.
> I can never be the same again. A sentiment I am sure many of you are  
> experiencing at this moment.
>
> I, for one am the guiltiest of the guilty for my past discretions  
> not to mention my forebears.
> I cannot claim open overt action against the Jewish people. However  
> the sins of my ancestors hang over my head.
> Whilst the Jewish Sages of Spain, including Maimonides , Rashi and  
> ilk were bringing the light of Torah , my forebears were wallowing  
> in the deepest of darkness during the Dark Ages of Europe.
> The European rebirth or "Rinascimento- Renaissance"was the rebirth  
> of the ancient classic forms of the Greco- Roman ideals . This  
> occurred in the Benedictian monasteries of central Italy.
>
> This fueled the anti-semitic feelings that were rife throughout  
> Europe.
> I have left Christianity, but Christianity has not left me.
>
> How can I stand in light of nearly 1800 years of Christian hatred  
> and persecution of the Jewish people.
> There is much unfinished business.
> As the song goes that Hanoch posted : " Yesh din ve yash dayan." -  
> There is One Law and One Judge.
> I cannot elect my status. I cannot forgive the sins of the past.  
> This is the role of The Holy One, Blessed be He.
>
> How can I after all that has happened, even dare to believe that all  
> is well just because my belief system has changed.
> This would be the height of spiritual arrogance.
> I have never been persecuted for my belief system...... not so the  
> Jews.
> I have always had liberty and freedom of choice regarding the place  
> of my residence...... not so the Jews.
> I have never been crusaded, inquisited, pogrommed, ghettoed, or  
> holocausted....... not so the Jews.
>
> I have nothing to boast in, except the Mercy and Grace of HaShem.
> Just because my belief system has changed....... the past has not  
> changed.
>
> Whatever I believe or whoever I believe that I am does not change  
> the past.
> If I believe I am a lost tribe member...... so what !!!!
> A belief is just a belief.
> How can I remain isolated without the Ruach h'Chodesh tugging at my  
> heart strings.
> How can I be frustrated at my inability to attain Aliyah status and  
> presumptuously aspire to equal status with the Jew regarding my  
> tenure in the land.
> When my grandparents and parents were eating  Italian pork sausages,  
> the Jewish pioneers were settling the land and fighting in the war  
> of independence.
> When I was serving mass as a Catholic altar boy, the Lions of  
> Yehudah were liberating Yerushalayim.
> When I was marching as a secular activist in the student movement of  
> the 70's , the Jews were defending their sovereignty during the Yom  
> Kippur War.
> When I was "praising the Lord" with my hands outstretched, Jews were  
> being suicide bombed by the terrorists.
>
> I have not shed a drop of blood, sweat or tears in Eretz ha Chodesh,  
> and now because my belief system has changed , do I proclaim my  
> rights as a son of the Almighty.
>
> My belief must be transformed into action.
> The unity of Efrayim can only come with unity with Yehudah.
> Our diverse backgrounds are nullified when we unite with Yehudah.
> Our personal aspirations dim into insignificance when we submit to  
> the will of HaShem and unite unconditionally with Yehudah.
> As long as we maintain a label we are defeated. Yehudah brakes down  
> the labels because we must humble ourselves and submit to the Divine  
> ordained authority.
>
> Learn Hebrew.
> Join the local Synagogue as a B'nai Noach if necessary.
> No local Synagogue?........ join online.
> Reach out where possible.
> Become involved in projects in the Land without political nor  
> religious agendas.
> Love and serve the Jew as an Sh'liach of HaShem.
> The Jew as a servant of HaShem preserved the Torah for our posterity.
>
> It has been my conviction that in order to reverse the wrongs of the  
> past and rectify the shortcomings, that I must as a matter of  
> necessity become involved to the best of my G-d given ability to be  
> a practical hand of brotherly help and assistance to Yehudah.
>  I must emphasize that my personal experience in this field has been  
> aided by the abundant mercies of HaShem who has organized various  
> opportunities to reach out to the Jewish community locally and abroad.
> In fact at this moment , together with other members on the list, I  
> am organizing various projects of joint venture in the land. These  
> are golden opportunities to come together without prejudice or  
> political / religious agendas.
> B'Ezrat HaShem , once the foundations are laid , a statement will be  
> forthcoming.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090221/45d262cf/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 21 09:58:31 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:58:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Riches in a Troubled Time
Message-ID: <DCD3B7DF-014B-4B76-AB56-D3765679CE4D@earthlink.net>

I am no prosperity preacher and I really detest all the pleading and  
begging for money that we see on TV and elsewhere in the name of God,  
Christ, and Religion. The whole Name It & Claim It, Pray and Pay, Give  
and you will Get, philosophy is something I think we all have left  
behind and find highly objectionable.

What has struck me of late though, in thinking of our current  
financial crises and all the graft, greed, and subterfuge in our evil  
economic system, which is built and established contrary to Torah  
principles of helping the poor and weak, not charging interest,  
sabbatical and Jubilee years, and the ties to land, gold & silver, and  
so forth, is just how much "financial" teaching and advise is in the  
Tanakh, not only in the Torah, where the basic principles of economics  
are laid down, but in the book of Proverbs or Mishlei.

There one finds literally dozens of sage and pithy statements about  
saving, spending, giving, as well as the attitudes one should have  
toward wealth, money, and property. One that I think is often  
overlooked is the following:

The blessing of YHVH makes rich,
and he adds no sorrow with it (Proverbs 10:22)

The implications here are twofold. First, that wealth for YHVH's  
followers can come through the Good Hand of YHVH, for those who honor  
him in all their ways. Second, that the kind of wealth that YHVH  
brings can come without "sorrow." The Hebrew word, etzev  means "pain"  
or "trouble." The implications are that wealth gotten other than  
through the blessings of YHVH, for keeping his commandments, brings  
sorrow, pain, and trouble.

I was thinking of the book of Genesis and how we are told that  
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and finally Joseph, who had each left home  
and security to follow the voice of YHVH in a new land, were "made  
rich" by YHVH's hand:

Here are a few passages that I had marked in going through this just  
this morning:

Gen. 13:2: Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold.

Gen. 14:19-23: And he blessed him and said,
?Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!?
And Abram gave him a tenth of everything. And the king of Sodom said  
to Abram, ?Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself.?
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, ?I have lifted my hand to the  
LORD, God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth,
that I would not take a thread or a sandal strap or anything that is  
yours, lest you should say, ?I have made Abram rich.?

Gen. 24:1: Now Abraham was old, well advanced in years. And the LORD  
had blessed Abraham in all things.

Gen. 26:12-13: And Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same  
year a hundredfold. YHVH blessed him, and the man became rich, and  
gained more and more until he became very wealthy.

Gen. 28:20-22: Then Jacob made a vow, saying, ?If God will be with me  
and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat  
and clothing to wear, so that I come again to my father?s house in  
peace, then the YHVH shall be my God, and this stone, which I have set  
up for a pillar, shall be God?s house. And of all that you give me I  
will give a full tenth to you.?

Gen. 30:27-28, 43: But Laban said to him, ?If I have found favor in  
your sight, I have learned by divination that the YHVH has blessed me  
because of you.
Name your wages, and I will give it". . . Thus the man yincreased  
greatly and had large flocks, female servants and male servants, and  
camels and donkeys.

Gen. 39:2-3 YHVH was with Joseph, and he became a successful man, and  
he was in the house of his Egyptian master. His master saw that YHVH  
was with him and that YHVH caused all that he did to succeed in his  
hands.

And even when Joseph was stripped of all this and cast into prison  
with nothing, at age 17, we read:

Gen. 39:23 The keeper of the prison paid no attention to anything that  
was in Joseph?s charge, because the YHVH was with him. And whatever he  
did, YHVH made it succeed.

There are principles here that run deep and surely can help us all in  
the times we live in. First and foremost, trusting YHVH and looking to  
YHVH for guidance to do his will and carry out our individual  
missions, honoring YHVH with the "firstfruits" of our increase. In  
each of these cases the resulting "wealth" seems to come from a  
combination of hard work, honest endeavors, and clean and fair  
transactions, but the key seems to be to align such efforts with a  
"vow" toward YHVH to look to Him first in terms of setting things in  
order. Like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph, we find ourselves  
surrounded with cultures that are operating by the principles of greed  
and oppression, but it was within those contexts that our fathers and  
mothers here showed integrity. May we be inspired to walk in their  
footsteps. They were surely not perfect, not even heroic in many ways,  
but full of frailties and faults. It was the "walking according to my  
Ways" that seemed to set them apart--see Gen 26:5.

Shabbat Shalom,

James






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090221/08bbe978/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 21 17:39:03 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:03 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideals]
Message-ID: <49A09097.2040404@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/77beb12e/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some very good ideals
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:56:05 -0500
Size: 25624
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/77beb12e/attachment.eml 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 18:44:26 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:44:26 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?Tommorow_I_will_return_home-_=D7=9E=D7=97?=
	=?utf-8?b?16gg15DXoNeZINeR15HXmdeq?=
Message-ID: <855590370902211644u33ba65dft48ddd8102130919@mail.gmail.com>

Shavua tov L'Kulchem!

   This video clip is dedicated to the brave young men and women of the
Israel Defense Forces.  The words to this beautiful song are translated, and
transliterated below.
            *  Hanoch*

Click here: YouTube - Tommorow I will return home- ??? ???
????<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y-SfbPmQjw&feature=channel_page>

    *MACHAR ANI BABA'IT *

Kvar avru mea shanah,
kol sha'ah kashah alai
at vadai yeshana
lo atsamti et einai ze
sofo she hamasah
rak otach ertse lir'ot
az elaich ani ba,
be'einaim l'toshot
ki raiti eich kina
oti lokachat l'makom
shebnei adam ibdu hakol.

chaki li she'ekhzor machar ani babait
nimas li letaken olam be'eretz yerivah.
chaki li she'ekhzor tov lihyot babait
kulam hayu achim badam
yafa haderech khazarah.

lo rotze lihyot gibor,
lach ratsiti lesaper eich balailah hashachor,
mishehu shomer
hu mistater bein ananim,
aval mashir lanu tikvah
leyamim yoter yafim, yamim shel ahavah
lo rotze yoter et hake'ev
sheba'einaim hake'ev haze yuvas be'ahava.

chaki li she'ekhzor machar ani babait
nimas li letaken olam be'eretz yerivah.
chaki li she'ekhzor tov lihyot babait
kulam hayu achim badam
yafa haderech chazarah.
   TOMOROW I'M HOME* *

A century has passed,
each hour is hard for me.
You have surely changed,
but i haven't closed my eyes.
This is the end of the journey
only you i'll want to see.
So I come to you,
with sharpened eyes
because I saw how resentment
takes me to a place
where people had lost it all.

Wait till I return, tomorrow i'll be home.
I'm through fixing the world, in a land of arguing.
Wait till I return, it's good to be home.
All were brothers in their blood,
The road back is beautiful.

I don't want to be a hero,
to you I wanted to tell how during the black light,
somebody watches over,
He hides between the clouds,
but leaves behind hope,
for days that are nicer, the days of love.
I don't want any more pain in the eyes,
this pain will be defeated in love.

Wait till I return, tomorrow i'll be home.
I'm through fixing the world, in a land of arguing.
Wait till I return, it's good to be home.
All were brothers in their blood,
The road back is beautiful.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090221/1ac877c5/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb 21 21:32:38 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 03:32:38 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Tommorow I will return home-
	=?utf-8?Q?=D7=9E=D7=97=D7=A8=20=D7=90=D7=A0=D7=99=20=D7=91=D7=91=D7=99=D7=AA?=
	=?utf-8?Q??=
In-Reply-To: <855590370902211644u33ba65dft48ddd8102130919@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022220090332.15773.49A0C75500058ED100003D9D22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

This is a beautiful song on so many levels.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


Shavua tov L'Kulchem!

   This video clip is dedicated to the brave young men and women of the Israel Defense Forces.  The words to this beautiful song are translated, and transliterated below.
              Hanoch

Click here: YouTube - Tommorow I will return home- ??? ??? ???? 

MACHAR ANI BABA'IT 

Kvar avru mea shanah, 
kol sha'ah kashah alai 
at vadai yeshana 
lo atsamti et einai ze 
sofo she hamasah 
rak otach ertse lir'ot 
az elaich ani ba, 
be'einaim l'toshot 
ki raiti eich kina 
oti lokachat l'makom 
shebnei adam ibdu hakol. 

chaki li she'ekhzor machar ani babait
nimas li letaken olam be'eretz yerivah. 
chaki li she'ekhzor tov lihyot babait
kulam hayu achim badam
yafa haderech khazarah. 

lo rotze lihyot gibor, 
lach ratsiti lesaper eich balailah hashachor, 
mishehu shomer 
hu mistater bein ananim, 
aval mashir lanu tikvah 
leyamim yoter yafim, yamim shel ahavah
lo rotze yoter et hake'ev 
sheba'einaim hake'ev haze yuvas be'ahava. 

chaki li she'ekhzor machar ani babait
nimas li letaken olam be'eretz yerivah. 
chaki li she'ekhzor tov lihyot babait
kulam hayu achim badam
yafa haderech chazarah.
TOMOROW I'M HOME 

A century has passed, 
each hour is hard for me. 
You have surely changed, 
but i haven't closed my eyes. 
This is the end of the journey
only you i'll want to see. 
So I come to you, 
with sharpened eyes
because I saw how resentment
takes me to a place 
where people had lost it all. 

Wait till I return, tomorrow i'll be home. 
I'm through fixing the world, in a land of arguing. 
Wait till I return, it's good to be home. 
All were brothers in their blood,
The road back is beautiful. 

I don't want to be a hero, 
to you I wanted to tell how during the black light, 
somebody watches over, 
He hides between the clouds, 
but leaves behind hope, 
for days that are nicer, the days of love. 
I don't want any more pain in the eyes, 
this pain will be defeated in love. 

Wait till I return, tomorrow i'll be home. 
I'm through fixing the world, in a land of arguing. 
Wait till I return, it's good to be home. 
All were brothers in their blood,
The road back is beautiful.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/a3db5475/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 22:01:38 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:01:38 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Vintage Bibi
Message-ID: <855590370902212001w51950e46t3516a47e707f6ca2@mail.gmail.com>

Even those who aren't particularly sympathetic to Israel's
Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from
this interview with British Television this week. I guess it can be
attributed to Minister Netanyahu's days studying history at Harvard.

The interviewer asked him: "How come so many more Palestinians have  been
killed in this (Gaza) conflict than Israelis?"

(A nasty question if there ever was one!)

Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to start asking in that
direction?"

Interviewer: (Falling into the trap) Why not?

Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British
and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the war
was caused by Germany's aggression. And in response to the German blitz on
London, on February 13.1945, when the end of WWII in Europe was already a
foregone conclusion, the British unnecessarily wiped out the entire city of
Dresden, burning to death more German civilians than the number of people
killed in Hiroshima.

Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to
bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen, some of the bombs  missed their
target and fell on a Danish children's hospital,
killing 83 little children . Perhaps you have another question?"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090221/377de0e3/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Feb 21 22:03:46 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:03:46 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Tommorow I will return home- =?UTF-8?B?157Xl9eo?=
	=?UTF-8?B?INeQ16DXmSDXkdeR15nXql0=?=
Message-ID: <49A0CEA2.7090004@westnet.com.au>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/142a0df0/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?Tommorow_I_will_return_home-_=D7=9E=D7=97?=
	=?utf-8?b?16gg15DXoNeZINeR15HXmdeq?=
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:44:26 -0800
Size: 10656
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090222/142a0df0/attachment.eml 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 22:06:34 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:06:34 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "What will be?"
Message-ID: <855590370902212006x460da7cby80f158a1dd1db2dc@mail.gmail.com>

What's really changed in 32 years?!?!
                * Hanoch*
**
 *FROM THE DESK OF* BARBARA GINSBERG


"K A H A N E"

*The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea*
May 1977 ? Sivan 5737


*WHAT WILL BE?*

* *
There is, generally, a gap of three weeks between the writing of this
magazine and its publication.  Because of that, when these words are read
two events will have already taken place.  The elections for the Knesset
will be over and the results already known.  And the effort to have a
groundbreaking ceremony for the first Jewish settlement in ancient Shchem
since the Exile began, will have been made.



At the moment of writing, however, neither event has taken place and I do
not know whether on May 18, after the two events have occurred, I will sit
in the Knesset or in an Israeli prison.  What is clear, however, is that the
two events are intrinsically bound, one to the other.



The trip to Shchem is part of the drive to ? once and for all ? establish
the principle of Torah law over contradictory secular law, when the latter
attempts to prevent Jews from obeying their obligation to the former.  It is
part of the drive ? once and for all ? to do away with the humiliation and
desecration of huge parts of the Land of Israel that are nominally under
Israeli control, but in fact dominated and arrogantly possessed by Arabs.  It
is an effort to stop the Washington plan to force Israel into *suicidal
concessions* and the Israeli preparation to give in to at least a large part
of the American demands.  It is part of the hope that a tempest will be
planted in the hearts of enough Jews so that they will join the call to the
Israeli government: *We will not allow you to give up the land and we will
refuse to obey orders to retreat if we are soldiers and join a campaign of
civil disobedience if we are civilians. *



That is why I plan NOT to ask the government for permission to go to Shchem,
for no permission is needed for a Jew to go anywhere in his country.  That
is why I plan to ignore the order barring me (sic) from the liberated lands
that has been issued by the army.  That is why I plan to call upon the
troops, if stopped, to refuse to violate Jewish law by barring a Jew from
the Land of Israel and to disobey the illegal orders given them.



That is why I do not know where I will be listening to the Knesset election
results.  And as to what the people of Israel will do ? who can say?  There
are many things I might not have said that would have gained me votes.  But
doing that would be turning into a politician and making the Knesset more
important than the reason for wanting to be in it.  The Knesset, for me, is
nothing more than a forum, an opportunity to have my voice heard ? *and that
is vital.  *But the voice itself and what it says is even more vital and
when one begins to compromise and rationalize that compromise by thinking
that the end of entering the Knesset justifies the means of compromising ?
then there is never an end

to the deceit.  Then one does the same once he is in the Knesset so that he
be re-elected or become a cabinet minister.  No, the truth is not a thing
you play with.



The truth has been said in this campaign: That the Jewish people is the
Chosen people of G-d and that "what will be" depends on their cleaving to
the concepts and the mtizvot of Torah; that the fundamental concept i