From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 06:50:49 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:50:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>

Fantastic Hanoch
That is all inclusive of the way Hashem does "every thing for the best." 
I do not doubt but the arms of Hashem have not weakened in our day. And 
like Rav Brody says, He has a sense of humor that defies our every foe. 
I want to take this to heart.

I have a question Hanoch. I had a conviction to invite a speaker from 
Manhigut Yehudit to speak in Winnipeg. I have Jesish friends in 
Winnipeg, most of them are likely quite much assimilated Jews. But i do 
have a feeling that Hashem loves them all and could maybe somehow get 
them to do something about it. They are quite well to do Orthodox, and 
there is also a Chabad Centre. What do you think Hanoch. It seems a bit 
way above my head to tackle.

Another thing. I am wondering where all the e-mails are going. I am 
getting very few from the dialogue. Maybe everyone is just busy.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> This is great!  It's really a MUST SEE video;  very, very cool!  :-)  
> :-) 
>                          */ Hanoch
> /*
> YouTube - Ayalon Institute Segment - The History Channel - Israel 
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNw5MA3DII>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00
>
>   

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 18:14:06 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:14:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
In-Reply-To: <4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>
References: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>
Message-ID: <855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Cornie!

      Glad you liked that video - I found it really amazing, although not
unusual by Israeli standards, on two counts; firstly - the fact that
"ordinary" people did extraordinary things, and secondly, how unemotional
they seem, when recounting those amazing events!  It really shakes me up
what was done in pre-Independence Israel to be able to defend against the
Arab attacks, while being actively harassed, hunted and imprisoned by the
British military occupiers.

     Hey, I think it's a GREAT idea to invite a spokesman from Manhigut
Yehudit - and if it were me, I would simply advertise it as "An update from
Israel; the view of the people" or something like that.  Please let me know
if I can help in any way.

     Cornie, it's not just you my friend, the Dialogue seems to have decided
to rest their collective 'vocal cords' - I haven't gotten much either....

     But don't worry, I've got about 20 posts, ready to go that I'm trying
to limit to 3, :-)    In Israel, I'll actually be starting a Blog,
which anyone can access.  That way I won't keep cluttering everyone's Inbox!

     Take care Cornie, and may HaShem always care for you!
                    *  Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

> Fantastic Hanoch
> That is all inclusive of the way Hashem does "every thing for the best." I
> do not doubt but the arms of Hashem have not weakened in our day. And like
> Rav Brody says, He has a sense of humor that defies our every foe. I want to
> take this to heart.
>
> I have a question Hanoch. I had a conviction to invite a speaker from
> Manhigut Yehudit to speak in Winnipeg. I have Jesish friends in Winnipeg,
> most of them are likely quite much assimilated Jews. But i do have a feeling
> that Hashem loves them all and could maybe somehow get them to do something
> about it. They are quite well to do Orthodox, and there is also a Chabad
> Centre. What do you think Hanoch. It seems a bit way above my head to
> tackle.
>
> Another thing. I am wondering where all the e-mails are going. I am getting
> very few from the dialogue. Maybe everyone is just busy.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Hanoch Young wrote:
>
>   This is great!  It's really a MUST SEE video;  very, very cool!  :-)
> :-)
>                          * Hanoch
> *
>  YouTube - Ayalon Institute Segment - The History Channel - Israel<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNw5MA3DII>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 20:12:13 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:12:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>	<4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>
	<855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4C096D.8010902@mts.net>

Hanoch

Thanks for all the e-mails, and the advice and encouragement to see if I 
can get some one to speak in Winnipeg. Hanoch, my dear friend whom I 
would love to meet one day,  you have been sharing so many positive 
stories and e-mails, I just am so privileged with all that information. 
Looking forward to more of it coming.

About that last video, I don't know if you can put yourself in my 
Mennonite influenced shoes as it where. But ammunition or war and a 
Christian God do not jive, as I have been taught all my life. But that 
has changed  in my later years. I actually was doing voluntary service 
in the Army  with the IDF while I was in Israel. I will try to send a 
picture from that time in a separate e-mail. I am not very good at that. 
But I'll give it a try, and prove that I was there! Ha Ha. Maybe you 
will not be able to see that it is an IDF army truck.

See what will happen.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> Hey Cornie!
>  
>       Glad you liked that video - I found it really amazing, although 
> not unusual by Israeli standards, on two counts; firstly - the fact 
> that "ordinary" people did extraordinary things, and secondly, how 
> unemotional they seem, when recounting those amazing events!  It 
> really shakes me up what was done in pre-Independence Israel to be 
> able to defend against the Arab attacks, while being actively 
> harassed, hunted and imprisoned by the British military occupiers.
>  
>      Hey, I think it's a GREAT idea to invite a spokesman from 
> Manhigut Yehudit - and if it were me, I would simply advertise it as 
> "An update from Israel; the view of the people" or something like 
> that.  Please let me know if I can help in any way.
>  
>      Cornie, it's not just you my friend, the Dialogue seems to have 
> decided to rest their collective 'vocal cords' - I haven't gotten much 
> either....
>  
>      But don't worry, I've got about 20 posts, ready to go that I'm 
> trying to limit to 3, :-)    In Israel, I'll actually be starting a 
> Blog, which anyone can access.  That way I won't keep cluttering 
> everyone's Inbox!
>  
>      Take care Cornie, and may HaShem always care for you!
>                     */  Hanoch 
> /*
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net 
> <mailto:cormary at mts.net>> wrote:
>
>     Fantastic Hanoch
>     That is all inclusive of the way Hashem does "every thing for the
>     best." I do not doubt but the arms of Hashem have not weakened in
>     our day. And like Rav Brody says, He has a sense of humor that
>     defies our every foe. I want to take this to heart.
>
>     I have a question Hanoch. I had a conviction to invite a speaker
>     from Manhigut Yehudit to speak in Winnipeg. I have Jesish friends
>     in Winnipeg, most of them are likely quite much assimilated Jews.
>     But i do have a feeling that Hashem loves them all and could maybe
>     somehow get them to do something about it. They are quite well to
>     do Orthodox, and there is also a Chabad Centre. What do you think
>     Hanoch. It seems a bit way above my head to tackle.
>
>     Another thing. I am wondering where all the e-mails are going. I
>     am getting very few from the dialogue. Maybe everyone is just busy.
>
>     Cornie
>
>
>
>     Hanoch Young wrote:
>>     This is great!  It's really a MUST SEE video;  very, very cool! 
>>     :-)  :-) 
>>                              */ Hanoch
>>     /*
>>     YouTube - Ayalon Institute Segment - The History Channel - Israel
>>     <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNw5MA3DII>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>       
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> 
>>     Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00
>>
>>       
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/01/09 05:53:00
>
>   

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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 20:14:49 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornelius Reimer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:14:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
Message-ID: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>

Hanoch

Did this come trough?

Cornie

The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free! 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 20:37:17 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornelius Reimer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album
	Starter Edition 3.0
Message-ID: <40904231D0FB4BCB95D4A4FDCC09D7B4@CORNIE>

Just a trial from Cornie

The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free! 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 20:56:04 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:56:04 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
In-Reply-To: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>
References: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>
Message-ID: <855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>

Cornie you look SO COOL!!!!!!  Great photo, and even greater that *you* gave
of yourself, your time, your money and your sweat to help those young men
and women who are prepared to give their very lives....for OUR Eretz
Yisrael.  I salute you Cornie, in my book that marks you as someone who
MAKES IT HAPPEN, not just watches from the sidelines and applauds!

 May HaShem bless you to go from strength to strength,

     Your bro in New York (but only in NYC for 67 more days..),
                      * Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Cornelius Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

>  Hanoch
>
> Did this come trough?
>
> Cornie
>
> The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos.
> Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
> http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 21:11:54 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:11:54 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "...So,
	you shoot the messenger" MUST READ Rav Kahane's last speech
Message-ID: <855590370907011911i6e93645cy906797c25e46e2f8@mail.gmail.com>

The most AMAZING thing about the speech below is that Rav Kahane, H"YD (May
G-d avenge his blood) said it *18 years *ago..he was then murdered by Al
Queida shortly after its completion.  But to have seen the economic collapse
and the rise in Jew-hatred back THEN....
                 * Hanoch*
**
  *FROM THE DESK OF* BARBARA GINSBERG



*[Read and think!  Appropriate for today's America*.] B.G.



*??So You Shoot the Messenger?*

* *

*Rabbi Meir Kahane?s last speech urging American Jews to make emergency
Aliyah* *(excerpts of speech) November 5, 1990 ? Cheshvan, 18, 5751*



I was born in this country, and I can?t recall ever, in my life, as much
open and vicious Jew-hatred as I have seen in our time right now, in this
country.  I travel around from city to city, and in every city Jews tell me
it is unbearable.  Attacks upon synagogues, attacks upon Jews, all of which
are of course buried.  Because the synagogue doesn?t want it to be know.  The
ADL wants to report ?there were 55 incidents this year in the United
States?, when actually, there were 55 incidents in one *hour* in the United
States.  On radio programs which I am on ? the telephone calls ? open, open
(anti-Semitism).
  Two Reasons for Increased Anti-Semitism

            What has happened?  What has happened in *natural* terms?  Of
course, in *divine* terms, the Almighty is ending it for us.  But what is
happening in natural terms?  Two basic changes have taken place in this
country over the last twenty years.  It began slowly, now it is reaching its
crescendo.  We have seen the death of what I call the ?Auschwitz syndrome?.
What is the ?Auschwitz syndrome??  After World War II, it was hard to be an
anti-Semite, even for an anti-Semite.  It was just difficult.  And then the
years passed ? ten years, twenty years, twenty-five years, thirty years, and
a generation arose which was not born at that time.  And the ?Auschwitz
syndrome? began to fade away, and the guilt began to fade away.  No matter
how many Holocaust programs were shown on television, every year they had
less and less impact.  Indeed, they reach a point whereby they
*encourage*anti-Semitism, whereupon the anti-Semite says: ? Hey, you
know, I know Jews,
and the Nazis, and they were probably right.? That?s what happens today.  It
fades away.  And to help things along, there was the rise of a strong
Israel. Suddenly, Israel was *winning*.  And that allowed the anti-Semite to
cut the albatross.  Now it was OK.  You see, the Jew are Nazis, and they
persecute the Palestinians, and now it was OK.  So the ?Auschwitz syndrome?
faded, and it?s gone for all practical purposes.  And you hear people speak
about the holocaust that the Israelis are perpetrating upon the
Palestinians. A Holocaust?So all the Israelis and all the Jews who ever
called me a Nazi and didn?t realize that when you call a Jew a Nazi, you
cheapen the Holocaust.  And you cheapen the concept of Nazi, which is a very
unique thing.  And by you calling a second Jew a Nazi, what you are telling
the world is? Jews can *also* be Nazis.  Foolish people and tiny dwarfs and
pygmies, grasshoppers.

            So the ?Auschwitz syndrome? is gone. And another thing has
happened.  After World War II, and until perhaps ten years ago, the American
people lived in an economic luxury such as we have not seen ever in world
history.  No Roman emperor lived as well as the average American did from
World War II on, until fairly recently.  Life was good.  And when life is
good, the anti-Semite hates Jews quietly.  It?s not a big deal to him.  He
hates Jews, but he?s too interested in the Monday night football game.  I
myself am amazed that so many people are *here tonight* that don?t want to
see the Giants massacre the Colts?
  The Economic Crises

            So when times are good and he has his job, he has his beer and
he has his TV set, he has everything ? he hates Jews, but it?s not that
important to him.  But as the economic sands of time begin to run out, and
as things get bad and they get worse and suddenly there is a chill, there is
a fear.  I can sense a fear in this country ? people are afraid of what is
going to happen, and they have every right to fear it.  This is a country
which is on the verge of economic horror, horror.  In two years they expect
the national debt to go from 3.7 trillion to 5 trillion dollars, so they
work for months and months ? this fiasco between Congress and this
administration ? and they say, ?we are going to cut 500 million dollars in
five years?.  Five years!  It is a joke ? It?s a drop in the bucket.  This
is a country which is dying because the thing that was saving it was the
fact that the Japanese are buying Rockefeller Center, Rockefeller Plaza ?
don?t be angry.  If they stopped buying  it, no one is going to cover the
national debt.  And they are stopping.



            The dollar is a weak dollar today.  Can you imagine: The Israeli
shekel has held its own against the dollar now for a year.  Don?t clap!  It
doesn?t mean that the Israeli shekel is strong.  The shekel is weak; the
dollar is just as weak.  The Japanese don?t want dollars anymore, they want
German marks.  And they?re investing now in South Korea, Thailand,
Singapore.  The banks here are shaking, they?re tottering.  In their greed,
in the 1960?s and 70?s, they gave loans to anybody.  The Congo came ? you
want money, take the money.  Mexico came ? take 100 million dollars ? take,
take it, take.  Suddenly, the Congo couldn?t pay back.  If that?s what a
banker is?did he expect the Congo to ever pay back in total?  So hundreds of
millions of bad loans are being held by major banks:  Chase Manhattan,
Citicorp ? and they are in deep, deep trouble today.  And on top of that,
suddenly the real estate market has collapsed and they are now holding
several more hundred million dollars of bad mortgages.  That?s the tragedy.
That?s why suddenly, there?s a hurry talk bout Chase merging with City.



            There?s a myth that your money is insured for $100,000. If the
FDIC had 60 cents for every hundred dollars that you have, I?ll swim back to
Israel.  There is a myth that they are going to bail out the Savings & Loan
with 40 billion dollars.  If they can make it with less than half a
trillion, it will be a miracle.



So for years, the new economists said, ?Don?t worry about deficits, it
doesn?t matter.  Deficits don?t matter?  I know that when my bank account is
in deficit, it matters to *me.*  The bank calls me up and says, ?Rav Kahane,
we have a little problem.  Would you like to come and cover it??  A city can
go a little deeper into debt than I can, and a state deeper yet, and a
country can go a little deeper yet; but, in the end you have to pay the
piper.  So, America has lived beyond its means ? extra credit, credit cards
? and give anybody credit, give kids credit cards ? anybody.  Now it?s time
to pay the piper, there is no money, there is no money.  And should the
economic collapse come it is the *Jew *who will be blamed.  *It is the Jew*.
You can hear it already. You can small it in the air.

* *
The Racial tension ? In all Colors

            I was on a radio program in Chicago.  Every single caller blamed
the Gulf oil crisis on the Jews.  Every single call.  What you have now is
the getting together of all these crises ? the economic crisis, the racial
crisis ? and there is a serious racial crisis in the country.  It?s a
serious one.  It is a dangerous one. Whites hate Blacks and Blacks hate
Whites and they both hate Jews.  It is a terrible, terrible thing.  It?s not
just Whites and Blacks.  Now in the West, it?s the Hispanics and the Anglos
? tremendous crises, which only proves all the more the myth of the melting
pot. *Uh nechtiga tag *?what melting pot? A melting pot is fine until there
is a terrible crisis and then two ?objects? occupy the same job at the same
time.  That?s a law of physics, which I?ve changed a bit?

            So it?s not an accident that Jesse Helms is now putting on TV
ads talking about the unfairness of quotas.  Quotas *are* unfair.  Of
course, that is his trump card.  People are angry about quotas and
affirmative action, etc.  And Blacks are angry.  You think that Blacks have
no argument?  You think they are all bad? ? that everything the Blacks do is
wrong?  You think that Bob Grant is your kind of guy?  G-d forbid!  This
Jew-hating fascist type.  That he says something good many, many times
?you?re right.  You think that bad people don?t often say correct things?  Of
course they do ? but watch him, watch him and be careful of such
people!  People
who are anti-Black will always be anti-Jewish too.  One doesn?t have to love
Farrakhan or Jesse Jackson to realize that he should be careful of racism of
all kinds ? White and Black ? be careful, because we get stuck in the
middle.  Because the Whites and Blacks hate us both.


The Pre-War Depression: Not a Criteria

*            *We have a serious problem ? the economic crisis cannot be
averted. There is no way.  This country is in for terrible, terrible times.
People tell me in the depression it was also bad.  It?s true.  But first of
all, who knows what would have happened in this country if World War II had
not ended the depression?  If you think that Roosevelt ended it, you don?t
know history.  World War II ended it.  It gave jobs finally, but more to the
point, it was a different era back then.  The American people at that time
were a much stronger people in character.  Today, after 40-50 years of good
life and soft life, and the materialistic life, people are into themselves.
Unbelievable ego. Everything is me, me ? my life, my body, my-me,
my-mine.  People
are incapable today of making sacrifices and that?s the great, great
difference between today and what happened in the depression.  The person
who is fairly poor and gets poorer ? not so terrible. The person who has it
and lost it becomes a wild animal, a raging animal. He?ll not accept it and
will look for a scapegoat.  He?ll look for some target to blame.  We Jews
are the most visible, the most highly visible in terms of power, in terms of
money.  Of course, Wasps have more money than Jews have.  Certainly, Jews
are not into U.S. Steel and banking and so on, and the real, real money is
not Jewish money, but that doesn?t matter because Jews are in those
professions that are most visible.


How to Gauge anti-Semitism: Go to a Bar

            So in the bars, it sits the jealousy and the envy of the Jews
which leads to hate.  The tragedy as I?ve said a million times is that the
average Jewish leader in this country has no idea what people say ago about
Jews in bars, because the average Jew doesn?t go into a bar ? and he should;
he should be compelled to go into a bar.  Every rabbi before getting
?smicha?, before being ordained, should be compelled to go into a bar and
find out what the real world is like. It isn?t a joke.  I?m serious.  To
hide in some little ghetto, you never know what the world is.  They hate us
with a passion out there, with a virulence which is frightening to see and
to hear.  On every radio program I go on, I hear, ?why should we give you
guys three billion dollars a year??  Anytime some fellow from the Israeli
consulate is asked that question, he comes up with the answer, ?well, we
help you too, etc.?  Baloney!  The only way to get rid of that question is
to answer as I do, ?I don?t want the money!  I want Israel to be a free
enterprise state and allow private enterprise to flourish and then we don?t
want your money, I don?t want your charity.?  So, that of course gets rid of
the question, but it doesn?t get rid of the anti-Semite.  He?ll go home
mutter in his beer and pretzels. He?s still there.  He?s still there.


Role of the Prophet ? To See It and say It

            The rabbis tell us that G-d told Moses and Aaron.  ?I?ll make
you Jewish leaders on one condition that if they throw stones at you, you?ll
accept it.?  Rather to be pelted with stones and not with dollars.  That?s
what a Jewish leader has to be!  Say the bitter truth, even though they
won?t like you.  They won?t like you; they?ll attack you, but tell the Jews
the truth if you love them.  If you love Jews, tell them the things which
will make them angry, but which can save their lives.  That?s what you have
to do!  Think carefully about what I?m saying, and that is why we created
this group called ZEERO, Zionist Emergency Evacuation Rescue
Organization.  It?s
a name that provokes.  And we hope that as we spread this idea it will
provoke Jewish leaders to attack so we can debate the controversy that
arises.  People will say he?s right; he?s wrong, and so on.  Of course, this
is probably the worst thing you can ever tell any Jewish leader, any
Federation leader ? that he should leave here, and go to Israel.  What?ill
do there? .

            The rabbis say: ?*Who is wise?  He who sees the future?.  *It?s
no big deal to see ?today.?  A Jewish leader has to see tomorrow.


Living in Israel ? Difficult; Living Elsewhere ? Impossible

*            *It is coming here!  It is coming here!  Friday night I spoke
in Brooklyn in shul, and I had to walk through Bensonhurst, a white
neighborhood ? nice people, because they?re white?Watching the people, the
kids, you can smell the violence, you can see the hate, you can see the envy
? frustrated, bored, looking for action.  You can see it.  Those are the
potential mobs.  And G-d forbid, we will see it.  So ZEERO is a very serious
project of Kach, and I mean a serious one.  And I know how hard it is to go
to Israel ? it is really hard.  Hard to make a living.  My son goes into the
army every single year.  It?s dangerous and so on.  All of it is true.
 Everything
that?s all true.  That?s all true.  It?s hard to live in Israel, but it will
be impossible to live here, and if we go to Israel, at least there we can
change the country.  Of course we can change it and make it better and make
it tremendous and make it safe.  Of curse we can do that if we have the
power in the government, but here there is nothing you can do to change it,
it?s out of our hands.  We are a minority and we are strangers here.  We?re
stranger in this land, no matter how many years we?ve been here.



            It?s not an accident that so few German Jews survived the camps.
The Polish Jew did better.  Why?  Because the Polish Jew wasn?t surprised.  It
didn?t shock him that gentiles could behave like this.  It didn?t surprise
him, so he wasn?t shattered inside, he wasn?t? broken.  But the German Jew
was psychologically shattered.  How could this be?  I?m a German. I?m a
German.  How could it be?  How can you do this to me?  The Pole knew he was
a Jew.  The German was broken because his whole illusion was shattered.  And
that?s how the American Jew lives.  ?I?m an American?.  *It?s the gentile
who will teach you so quickly that you?re a Jew.*

* *

*            *It?s no just in the bars, in the working class bars the
anti-Semitism that you see.  When you see the news media and their attitude
towards Israel; it?s not anti-Israel ? it?s anti-*Semitism.  *Do you know
why they hate Jews?  Because among intellectuals there is a jealousy of
Jews.  When Truman Capote, the famous author, a sickness, a disease who
represents all that is sick about Western culture ? when he spoke about the
publishing business being a Jewish mafia ? you can see the jealousy.  [He
writes] how Jews are over represented in publishing, in broadcast, in
movies, etc.  Of course it?s so ? they have talent.  Untalented people don?t
like to think it is because of talent.  They like to think they run it
because their friends, their uncles, their aunts and so on and so forth.  The
hate runs across the board.  You can see Peter Jennings? anti-Semitism.  You
can see it!  And when I hold press conferences in Israel and I see them
sitting around, you can watch them all ? the hatred.



(Eighteen years after the Rabbi spoke the above warnings, the economic
collapse came to American.  The anti-Semitism took a dangerous escalation-
the Jews fear for their future.  Will they come home to Israel?)

* *

*Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to
receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be,
please contact me at:*

*barhow at netvision.net.il  *

* *

*Visit my blog for previously e-mailed Rav Kahane writings:***

*http:/www.barbaraginsberg.blogspot.com***

* *
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 21:19:09 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:19:09 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Even after 500 years of Catholicism...still coming back!
Message-ID: <855590370907011919q4032954gee580ec5a99f9c58@mail.gmail.com>

FYI - To hell with the Inquisition, HaShem is waking ALL of HIS lost
children.......
       *  Hanoch*
**
*

6th Annual Sephardic Anousim Conference

Sponsored by Bat-Tzion Hebrew Learning Center

in conjunction with Congregation B?nai Zion

with a grant from the Jewish Federation of El Paso



Congregation B?nai Zion

805 Cherry Hill Lane El Paso, Texas 79912

(915) 833-2222



Friday, July 31st

        6:15 PM   Shabbat evening Services

                        Traditional Shabbat dinner to follow

                        Keynote Speaker: Dolores Sloan

Topic: ?Honoring the Sacred Memories: In Praise of the Ancestors?


Saturday, August 1st

        9:30 AM   Shabbat morning Services

        12:15 PM Lunch

                        Speaker: Professor Seth Kunin

Topic: ?The Complex Nature of Crypto-Jewish Jewish Identities?

                        Speaker: Rabbi Peter Tarlow

                        Topic: ?Peruvian Jews and Returnees in Huanuco?

        3:00 PM ? 7:00 PM Shabbat rest

        7:00 PM   Mincha Service

        7:30 PM   Seudah Shleesheet

                        Speaker: Rabbi Juan Mejia

                        Topic: ?The Death of Crypto-Judaism: Moving Forward
and Creating                                 a Jewish Future for Our
Children?

        8:30 PM   Ma?ariv & Havdalah



Sunday, August 2nd

        8:30 AM   Services

        9:00 AM   Bagel breakfast

                        Speaker: Aaron Rehberg

                        Topic: ?A Crypto-Jewish Account of Self-Realization?

        Panel discussion with speakers

        Conclusion of conference
*
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 21:19:54 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:19:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>
	<855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4C194A.2040606@mts.net>

Thanks Hanoch

Yes that did at least give me a chance to see and hear a little bit of 
what it was like for those of the younger generation, who are actually 
in the Army. About all I did was repairing used helmets. But of course 
we witnessed the soldiers reporting to role call each morning and had 
our meals with them in the same room. Really it was a holiday experience 
for us volunteer's.  We could choose from different tours  at their 
expense etc each week. They treated us royally.

Cornie

 

Hanoch Young wrote:
> Cornie you look SO COOL!!!!!!  Great photo, and even greater that 
> *you* gave of yourself, your time, your money and your sweat to help 
> those young men and women who are prepared to give their very 
> lives....for OUR Eretz Yisrael.  I salute you Cornie, in my book that 
> marks you as someone who MAKES IT HAPPEN, not just watches from the 
> sidelines and applauds!
>  
>  May HaShem bless you to go from strength to strength,
>  
>      Your bro in New York (but only in NYC for 67 more days..),
>                       */ Hanoch
> /*
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Cornelius Reimer <cormary at mts.net 
> <mailto:cormary at mts.net>> wrote:
>
>     Hanoch
>      
>     Did this come trough?
>      
>     Cornie
>
>     The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these
>     photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
>     http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/01/09 05:53:00
>
>   

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  1 21:33:57 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:33:57 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why do we keep ASKING?
Message-ID: <855590370907011933k6eef534bt20bb7a6bfb0022f4@mail.gmail.com>

It's more then 64 years since the end of WW II and STILL the Catholic Church
has not told us about the hidden Jewish children (now seniors, themselves!)
spoken about in the article below.  But why are we ASKING?!??!   When HaShem
has blessed us with the 4th largest Air Force in the WORLD (AND the best
pilots..), a few Vatican 'Fly overs' - particularly when the tourists and
"pilgrims" come to Rome!  Picture an Easter Sunday, with crowds filling St
Peter's Square, and Israeli F-15's fly over, REALLY
 L-O-W....and fliers are dispersed explaining how we will not allow this
abhorrent behavior of the Church to continue.

  Or, we *could *simply declare *certain *sites in Jerusalem a "closed
military zone."  Either way, they no longer have the swords at OUR necks,
and it's time we reminded them!
                             *  Hanoch*
 'One Word by Pope Means 1,000s of Jews' Tammuz 9, 5769, 01 July 09 09:22
by by Hillel Fendel

(Israelnationalnews.com) A top anti-assimilation organization says the
Pope?s recent consent to ?consider? revealing the names of hidden Holocaust
Jewish children has led to a ?flood? of requests on the topic.

*Two weeks after a Papal representative agreed in principle to consider
asking Catholic Church members to ?reveal to Holocaust orphans their Jewish
past,? *many Jews are anxious to ?keep up the momentum? and ensure that this
actually happens.

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifschitz, chairman of the Yad L?Achim anti-assimilation
and anti-missionary organization, says emotional letters and reactions to
the idea continue to ?flood our offices.? Many of the letters contain
details of children given up for protection to church orphanages during the
Holocaust.

?Just one word from the Pope,? Rabbi Lifschitz told members of the
Rabbinical Centre of Europe (RCE) this week, ?could reveal, all at once,
thousands of names hidden away in the monasteries.? The RCE is actively
involved in the attempt to locate the currently-lost Jews, and has
dispatched a special envoy to Italy to coordinate the activities among the
relevant bodies.

Yad L?Achim wrote to Pope Benedict shortly before his visit to Israel three
months ago, asking the pontiff to take action to reveal the ?hidden Jewish
children? of the Holocaust. Specifically, the request was to ask Church
members to ?reveal to Holocaust orphans their Jewish past and provide them
with accurate information concerning their families.?

Earlier this month, an official response was received from Archbishop
Antonio Franco, of the high Vatican rank of Apostolic Nuncio. Franco wrote,
?I know that there has been action taken by the Holy See, but at this moment
I cannot be accurate in my information. I assure you that I will try to
provide more precise information and see if an appeal like the one you
propose could be made.?

*"Your Response Made Waves"
*?Your response made tremendous waves throughout the Jewish world,? Rabbi
Lifschitz wrote back to Archbishop Franco, ?which now waits breathlessly for
you to in fact quickly take practical steps towards this end, so that the
children of the holy Holocaust victims be able to return to the Jewish
People.?

?We will be obliged if you would keep us updated on the implementation of
your willingness and on any progress in receiving information on this
so-painful and humanitarian matter.?

*"A Fitting Response to Ban on Returning Baptized Babies"
*Rabbi Lifschitz has explained that a call by the Pope to reveal the ?hidden
children? would be a fitting response to the ban issued by Pope Pius XII, in
a letter written to his representative in Paris on November 20, 1946,
against returning baptized Jewish babies to their parents. The recipient of
the letter, Angelo Roncalli, who was later to become Pope John XXIII, often
disobeyed these instructions.

*Where are They Now? Far-Off Countries
*Yad L?Achim says that every monastery in France, Poland, Italy and Holland
in which were hidden children still has a precise listing of each hidden
Jewish child.

?To the best of our knowledge,? Rabbi Lifschitz told the ERC, ?many of those
children became in the course of the years monks and nuns, may G-d save us,
and were sent to far-off countries, in a cynical abuse of the fact that they
do not have relatives. This is the chance to reach them, and their children,
most of whom know nothing about their Judaism??
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  1 21:52:33 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:52:33 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Obama  outlaws G-d to rebuild Temple]
In-Reply-To: <4A4A9380.5020709@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A4A9380.5020709@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4A4C20F1.2000401@mts.net>

Joe, I do understand to a point. The only way to face the litmus test 
though, is with true emuna. But with true emuna we will still want to 
study the blueprint! So we will not miss the boat. Or at least, not the 
first boat.

Cornie



JOE INDOMENICO wrote:
> /Shalom Cornie,
>
> the main thrust of my opinion is to wait on HaShem. If we are faithful 
> and true He will provide the necessary means.
> There have been many incidents in the near past that have made many 
> rabbis suspicious. I do not blame them for the mistrust caused by many 
> who have tried to infiltrate with hidden agendas.
>
> There is open concern from the threat of fundamentalist Islam. This 
> threat is a real physical attack on the political sovereignty of 
> Yisrael. It is real and tangible. Israel knows its enemies.
> There is also the spiritual threat of Christian fundamentalists who 
> come in the guise of conversion missionaries. The rabbis perceive 
> these as greater threats insofar as they come as wolves dressed in 
> sheep's clothing. They show love and support whilst all the while 
> looking for opportunities to convert.
>
> Now Yisrael faces a new threat from Christian countries who not only 
> challenge them spiritually but also are a political threat as well.
> This is the Esav / Yismael convergence spoken about by the prophets.
>
> This is why our challenge is now all the much harder. However, HaShem 
> is the instigator of this dilemma.
> I personally believe that this will be the litmus test manufactured by 
> HaShem to test , prove and purge.
>
> /
> *??*  ?????????? ???????, ???-???????? ?????????; ???????????????? 
> ???????? ????, ??????? ???-???????. 	*35* and I will bring you into 
> the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I plead with you face to 
> face.
> *??*  ????????? ?????????????? ???-???????????, ??????????? ????? 
> ?????????--???? ????????? ????????, ????? ??????? ??????. 	*36* Like 
> as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, 
> so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
> *??*  ?????????????? ???????, ?????? ?????????; ?????????? ???????, 
> ?????????? ?????????. 	*37* And I will cause you to pass under the 
> rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
> *??*  ?????????? ??????, ??????????? ??????????????? ????--??????? 
> ??????????? ??????? ??????, ?????-??????? ?????????? ??? ??????; 
> ???????????, ????-????? ??????. 	_*38* _/and I will _*purge*_ out from 
> among you the *_rebels_*, and them that transgress against Me; I will 
> bring them forth out of the land where they sojourn, but they _*shall 
> not enter *_into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the 
> LORD./
> *??*  ???????? ?????-?????????? ????-????? ??????? ??????, ????? 
> ??????????? ????? ???????, ???????, ???-???????? ????????? ?????; 
> ?????-???? ???????? ??? ??????????-????, ????????????????? 
> ????????????????. 	*39* As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the 
> Lord GOD: Go ye, serve every one his idols, even because ye will not 
> hearken unto Me; but My holy name shall ye no more profane with your 
> gifts, and with your idols. /Eze 20 v 35-39./
>
>
> /This scripture is pertinent to the current situation that many of us 
> find ourselves in at this juncture.
> There is a post script to this that I will share in due time.
>
> In the meantime, Cornie , keep on hanging on to the tzitzit of the 
> Jew. This being the symbol of the Jew who has taken the yoke of the 
> commandments upon himself. This does not require conversion but 
> relationship.
> The basis of relationship is commitment underscored by unconditional love.
> We can all become actively involved in this process.
> In due time there will be an announcement of various projects in 
> Yisrael that will highlight this relationship.
>
> Conversion starts in the heart and then proceeds into the realm of 
> physical expression.
> Remember that even if one cannot physically attach to the land, he or 
> she can still become involved in disseminating the truth of Torah, 
> both spiritual and political in their neck of the woods. This is where 
> true conversion begins.
> The integrity of truth will always dispel the lies.
>
> Are we up to the Divine purge?
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> */
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> [Dialogue] Obama outlaws G-d to rebuild Temple
> From:
> Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net>
> Date:
> Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:42:32 -0500
> To:
> Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To:
> Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> CC:
>
>
>       *Obama seems to be a bit brash in his judgment, and he is the
>       President of the USA? Does this mean we are all to wake up from
>       a deep sleep?
>       *
>
>
> Joe, your article really made me think a bit. What do you do now? What 
> am I to do? I would love to convert to Judaism, but it seems to me the 
> door is closed, unless i would divorce my Christian wife! Likely I am 
> quite mixed up yet. I have had a tendency to believe that I might pass 
> as a Noahide. But to be honest deep down i don't seem to have a 
> drawing to pass a Noahide. My interest is in Judaism. These are the 
> people who's tzitzit I would like to hold on to, and ask them what 
> must I do?
>
> Cornie
>
>
>       *Will Obama outlaw the Eighteen Benedictions?
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/8-Gx44wI0M8/will-obama-outlaw-the-eighteen-benedictions-.html>*
>
> We say to Hashem thrice daily in the Amida prayer, "And to Jerusalem 
> Your city return in mercy, and dwell within as You promised," invoking 
> Hashem to return and rebuild the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.
>
> Hold on folks, there's a problem here: The Holy Temple Mount is in 
> East Jerusalem. Obama wants a total freeze on Jewish east Jerusalem 
> <http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/23/US-wants-freeze-on-Jewish-east-Jerusalem/UPI-13331245758694/>, 
> including natural growth, much less additional construction.
>
> Will Obama outlaw the Eighteen Benedictions (Amida, or "Shmona Esrei") 
> because of the Jerusalem benediction? According to Obama, G-d is 
> potentially an illegal settler in Jerusalem Who must be stopped!
>
> Obama has therefore told G-d that He may not build the Third Temple, 
> and He certainly may not dwell there. Hashem is violating the 
> settlement freeze by bringing Moshiach and building Bet HaMikdash.
>
> Up until now, few were so cheeky as to blaspheme Hashem. Pharaoh, 
> Nebuchadnezzar, and Titus did, and each had a very tragic ending.
>
> Mr. Obama, telling families in Modiin Illit and Beitar Illit that they 
> cannot have more children is blaspheming Hashem. For the good of your 
> country, back off, sir; you are playing with an all-consuming fire. 
> Wait and see.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Jul  2 01:15:55 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:15:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>
	<855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F794DFC175DA4D96980D0DB4451B02E4@bettylaptop>

Hey Cornie, I just finished my last catastrophe claim file for the night and
was about to go off to bed, but couldn't resist checking my email!  Bad
girl!!!  But I am so glad that I did!  GREAT PHOTOS!!!  I agree with our bro
Hanoch in his comments below!  Interestingly enough, you look just like I
pictured you!

Miss chatting back and forth with you guys and all, but gotta do what I
gotta do.like make up for lost time earning money while we have the
opportunity.hope to check back in later.

 

Love to you and all and Laila tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel

 

Cornie you look SO COOL!!!!!!  Great photo, and even greater that you gave
of yourself, your time, your money and your sweat to help those young men
and women who are prepared to give their very lives....for OUR Eretz
Yisrael.  I salute you Cornie, in my book that marks you as someone who
MAKES IT HAPPEN, not just watches from the sidelines and applauds!

 

 May HaShem bless you to go from strength to strength,

 

     Your bro in New York (but only in NYC for 67 more days..), 

                       Hanoch

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Cornelius Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

Hanoch

 

Did this come trough?

 

Cornie


The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download
Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free! 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition


_______________________________________________

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Jul  2 01:49:28 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:49:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>
	<855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CFDACA22D5C4EC785B82BF9365BEF64@bettylaptop>

Roger and I watched this during a brief little break this afternoon.yes,
very cool!  He loved it!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!

 

Hey Cornie!

 

      Glad you liked that video - I found it really amazing, although not
unusual by Israeli standards, on two counts; firstly - the fact that
"ordinary" people did extraordinary things, and secondly, how unemotional
they seem, when recounting those amazing events!  It really shakes me up
what was done in pre-Independence Israel to be able to defend against the
Arab attacks, while being actively harassed, hunted and imprisoned by the
British military occupiers.

 

     Hey, I think it's a GREAT idea to invite a spokesman from Manhigut
Yehudit - and if it were me, I would simply advertise it as "An update from
Israel; the view of the people" or something like that.  Please let me know
if I can help in any way.

 

     Cornie, it's not just you my friend, the Dialogue seems to have decided
to rest their collective 'vocal cords' - I haven't gotten much either....

 

     But don't worry, I've got about 20 posts, ready to go that I'm trying
to limit to 3, :-)    In Israel, I'll actually be starting a Blog, which
anyone can access.  That way I won't keep cluttering everyone's Inbox!

 

     Take care Cornie, and may HaShem always care for you!

                      Hanoch 

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

Fantastic Hanoch
That is all inclusive of the way Hashem does "every thing for the best." I
do not doubt but the arms of Hashem have not weakened in our day. And like
Rav Brody says, He has a sense of humor that defies our every foe. I want to
take this to heart.

I have a question Hanoch. I had a conviction to invite a speaker from
Manhigut Yehudit to speak in Winnipeg. I have Jesish friends in Winnipeg,
most of them are likely quite much assimilated Jews. But i do have a feeling
that Hashem loves them all and could maybe somehow get them to do something
about it. They are quite well to do Orthodox, and there is also a Chabad
Centre. What do you think Hanoch. It seems a bit way above my head to
tackle.

Another thing. I am wondering where all the e-mails are going. I am getting
very few from the dialogue. Maybe everyone is just busy.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote: 

This is great!  It's really a MUST SEE video;  very, very cool!  :-)  :-)  

                          Hanoch

YouTube - <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNw5MA3DII>  Ayalon Institute
Segment - The History Channel - Israel 

 






  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  





  _____  



 
 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>  
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09
11:37:00
 
  

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu Jul  2 03:57:43 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:57:43 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop
	Album Starter Edition 3.0
In-Reply-To: <40904231D0FB4BCB95D4A4FDCC09D7B4@CORNIE>
References: <40904231D0FB4BCB95D4A4FDCC09D7B4@CORNIE>
Message-ID: <200907020857.n628vbD4011675@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>




Cornie,

You are "the man!" More Power to you!

Steve




SteveAt 06:37 PM 7/1/2009, you wrote:
>Just a trial from Cornie
>
>The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. 
>Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
><http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition>http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition 
>
>_______________________________________________
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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul  2 06:27:00 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:27:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
In-Reply-To: <F794DFC175DA4D96980D0DB4451B02E4@bettylaptop>
References: <D9D64CDD20B84901A0FBA23758A79714@CORNIE>	<855590370907011856r469d7695waa97c3b86a00b763@mail.gmail.com>
	<F794DFC175DA4D96980D0DB4451B02E4@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <4A4C9984.6010502@mts.net>

Good to hear from you Betty
To be honest with you Betty I felt like reminding you that I did feel a 
little sorry for you when you announced you are getting a job just 
recently. I know so well how really getting into the grind of it isn't 
that easy. But gaining our livelihood comes with a cost. And I am sure 
you will know, no pain no gain. What I like to see in you, there is no 
complaining. It is me who am making a big story of it.
About those photo's, a lot of water has run through the bridges since. ( 
Its over 5 years now) But isn't it amazing the way Hashem takes care of 
those who want to put their trust in Him! I was getting a bit lonesome 
for e-mails. So it was Joe, Hanoch and me for a little.

Love and blessings to you

Cornie



Betty K Givin wrote:
>
> Hey Cornie, I just finished my last catastrophe claim file for the 
> night and was about to go off to bed, but couldn't resist checking my 
> email!  Bad girl!!!  But I am so glad that I did!  GREAT PHOTOS!!!  I 
> agree with our bro Hanoch in his comments below!  Interestingly 
> enough, you look just like I pictured you!
>
> Miss chatting back and forth with you guys and all, but gotta do what 
> I gotta do...like make up for lost time earning money while we have 
> the opportunity...hope to check back in later.
>
>  
>
> Love to you and all and Laila tov,
>
>  
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:56 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] You have received a photo from me in Israel
>
>  
>
> Cornie you look SO COOL!!!!!!  Great photo, and even greater that 
> **you** gave of yourself, your time, your money and your sweat to help 
> those young men and women who are prepared to give their very 
> lives....for OUR Eretz Yisrael.  I salute you Cornie, in my book that 
> marks you as someone who MAKES IT HAPPEN, not just watches from the 
> sidelines and applauds!
>
>  
>
>  May HaShem bless you to go from strength to strength,
>
>  
>
>      Your bro in New York (but only in NYC for 67 more days..),
>
>                       /*/ Hanoch/*/
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Cornelius Reimer <cormary at mts.net 
> <mailto:cormary at mts.net>> wrote:
>
> Hanoch
>
>  
>
> Did this come trough?
>
>  
>
> Cornie
>
>
> The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. 
> Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
> http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/01/09 05:53:00
>
>   

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  2 07:38:19 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:38:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
In-Reply-To: <5CFDACA22D5C4EC785B82BF9365BEF64@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370906301735rb151a86n3cb7a3f1d48a5077@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A4B4D99.8050605@mts.net>
	<855590370907011614m28198ba4pb82bfe8b2764221e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5CFDACA22D5C4EC785B82BF9365BEF64@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <COL119-W524AFFFB45942ABC5D5C64BA2F0@phx.gbl>


Yes, thank you, Hanoch!  This is one of the most inspirational videos ever!  What HaShem has said will be, WILL BE!!!!  There is always a WAY!!!!  We must listen to His Plan, and then do our best to follow it, however we can find a Way.

 

Have been without a computer for a while (mine quit working, and had a recall on it).  Got word yesterday that it has been repaired and is being returned (much earlier than anticipated, BARUCH HASHEM!).  Have been borrowing computers, and reading as fast as I can............which is NOT very fast!  Just got to hear this video this morning -what a great way to start the day!

 

Pat 

 


 


From: bkgivin at verizon.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 01:49:28 -0500









Roger and I watched this during a brief little break this afternoon?yes, very cool!  He loved it!
 

Elisheva/Betty
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A MUST SEE video - very cool!!!
 

Hey Cornie!

 

      Glad you liked that video - I found it really amazing, although not unusual by Israeli standards, on two counts; firstly - the fact that "ordinary" people did extraordinary things, and secondly, how unemotional they seem, when recounting those amazing events!  It really shakes me up what was done in pre-Independence Israel to be able to defend against the Arab attacks, while being actively harassed, hunted and imprisoned by the British military occupiers.

 

     Hey, I think it's a GREAT idea to invite a spokesman from Manhigut Yehudit - and if it were me, I would simply advertise it as "An update from Israel; the view of the people" or something like that.  Please let me know if I can help in any way.

 

     Cornie, it's not just you my friend, the Dialogue seems to have decided to rest their collective 'vocal cords' - I haven't gotten much either....

 

     But don't worry, I've got about 20 posts, ready to go that I'm trying to limit to 3, :-)    In Israel, I'll actually be starting a Blog, which anyone can access.  That way I won't keep cluttering everyone's Inbox!

 

     Take care Cornie, and may HaShem always care for you!

                      Hanoch 

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

Fantastic Hanoch
That is all inclusive of the way Hashem does "every thing for the best." I do not doubt but the arms of Hashem have not weakened in our day. And like Rav Brody says, He has a sense of humor that defies our every foe. I want to take this to heart.

I have a question Hanoch. I had a conviction to invite a speaker from Manhigut Yehudit to speak in Winnipeg. I have Jesish friends in Winnipeg, most of them are likely quite much assimilated Jews. But i do have a feeling that Hashem loves them all and could maybe somehow get them to do something about it. They are quite well to do Orthodox, and there is also a Chabad Centre. What do you think Hanoch. It seems a bit way above my head to tackle.

Another thing. I am wondering where all the e-mails are going. I am getting very few from the dialogue. Maybe everyone is just busy.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote: 



This is great!  It's really a MUST SEE video;  very, very cool!  :-)  :-)  

                          Hanoch



YouTube - Ayalon Institute Segment - The History Channel - Israel 

 



 _______________________________________________  



  No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00   
 

_______________________________________________
 
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  2 07:42:54 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:42:54 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album
	Starter Edition 3.0
In-Reply-To: <40904231D0FB4BCB95D4A4FDCC09D7B4@CORNIE>
References: <40904231D0FB4BCB95D4A4FDCC09D7B4@CORNIE>
Message-ID: <COL119-W6677EC67CF8A5A548DD24BA2F0@phx.gbl>


FABULOUS, CORNIE!!!!!!

 

Thank you so much for these pics.  Have been without a computer for a while now, and having to borrow other people's computers for a few minutes here and there!  When I get my computer back from HP repair, will save these wonderful pictures in my Photos File.  

 

I LOVE VOLUNTEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!!

 

Pat/Avigail  
 


From: cormary at mts.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0




Just a trial from Cornie
The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free! 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 08:17:34 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:17:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, "Israel is bullied because it acts like a doormat"
Message-ID: <855590370907020617o2a976f36yd509dfc838da1508@mail.gmail.com>

To me, this article points to THE key problem that Israel faces....its
self-image; The world is "..like Giants in our eyes.."  and we are afraid of
doing what we need to, and in a manner that we need to do it.
                                   * Hanoch*
**
 *Israel is bullied because it acts like a doormat*
By Israel Harel, Haaretz Correspondent
July 2, 2009
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1097242.html

Anyone who acts like a doormat when he visits one foreign ruler should not
be surprised when other rulers come along and act as arrogantly as the
first. From day one we have let the world understand that we are a country
with no self-respect, that we can be insulted and punched and will respond,
if at all, with restraint and meekness. French President Nicolas Sarkozy was
able to say what he said about Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman because
for years Israel has been getting across the message: You can treat us
arrogantly.

It isn't the Americans who formulated the belittling and trivializing
formula "natural growth" at which the Obama administration is now chipping
away in an arrogant and bullying manner. An Israeli government, headed by
Ariel Sharon, was responsible for the trivializing. And instead of Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declaring, here at home, that no independent
nation can agree to have "natural growth" dictate its rate of construction,
Defense Minister Ehud Barak has gone off to the United States to plead for
this poor little lamb.

And to whom has he gone? To the president? To the vice president? To the
secretary of state? No. To an envoy, who holds the mere rank of ambassador.
The State of Israel's defense minister has tried to extract an agreement to
build kindergartens in Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria. And since
George Mitchell has apparently sent the defense minister away empty-handed,
the prime minister himself is about to go to him hat in hand. Maybe he'll
change his mind.

The British government is on the brink of collapse. And with what is the
British foreign minister busy? He "completely deplores" an Israeli decision
to build 50 housing units in the settlement Adam in Judea and Samaria.
Foreign diplomats in Israel are speaking in a lordly way to Israeli
statesmen, and foreign journalists are asking them questions that are often
biased, intrusive and insolent. These correspondents would never allow
themselves to behave so crudely in their own countries. And why shouldn't
they? Here, after all, everyone including prime ministers feels obligated to
justify himself to them and gratify them. Only rarely does someone put them
in their place.

The scorn for Israeli sovereignty and dignity runs from the lowest to the
highest. Israelis, in contact with foreigners, tend to be self-abasing and
massively critical of their country and its leaders. Those who excel at this
in particular are people from Israeli organizations who get their funding
from foreign governments and foreign NGOs, and in return, wittingly or not,
serve their interests.

Azerbaijan, a Muslim country, has a dangerous border with Iran. Many of its
interests, especially economic interests, inevitably intersect with Iran's.
About three weeks ago Iran's chief of staff, Maj. Gen. Hasan Firuzabadi,
paid a surprise visit to Baku. The aim: to prevent a visit to the republic
by Israeli President Shimon Peres. Although it was made clear to them that
Iran would take a dim view should they refuse (and indeed while Peres was
there, Iran recalled its ambassador), the Azerbaijanis rejected the demand
outright. Azerbaijan is a country with self-respect. They made it clear to
the bullying Iranians that no one was going to tell them which guests to
receive, or to whom to export goods, or especially from whom to import. Only
Israel fired the director general of its Defense Ministry, Amos Yaron,
because that's what the Americans dictated.

When the norm is to submit to pressure, the pressures only increase. If
right at the start of the pressure campaign Netanyahu has bowed down to the
Americans and given up his most basic principle - opposition to a
Palestinian state - what is left for him to give when the next wave of
pressure comes along? This is weakness and this is its wage.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 14:29:03 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:29:03 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 'An outpost carved in bedrock'
Message-ID: <855590370907021229r46fa4e78h8c4b1825cb4e3056@mail.gmail.com>

This evening, or at least, before Shabbat, I will, G-d willing post a couple
of ideas that you can implement to stand along with the heroic Jews of
Yehuda v'Shomron - Judea & Samaria, OUR Biblical heartland...
                               *     Hanoch*

*An outpost carved in bedrock*
Jul. 1, 2009
lela gilbert , THE JERUSALEM POST

In recent weeks, US President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary
Clinton have placed the words "Israeli settlements" on the front pages of
global newspapers. In the administration's rush to revive the Middle East
peace process, both have demanded a freeze on settlements, including
"natural growth," which to the ears of some Israelis amounts to a ban on
childbearing and room additions.

This leaves one asking, first of all, what is a settlement? The definition
of this hot-button political term has always been a little confusing to me.
A couple of years ago, I was invited to visit a rabbi and his family in Kfar
Etzion - part of the Gush Etzion settlement bloc (population 60,000). This
rabbi is the son of a friend back in California, and his pleasant home is
situated in what a Californian like me would call a "gated community."

Kfar Etzion was rebuilt near the scene of a 1948 massacre of Jews; the
survivors vowed to return, and after the Six Day War they did. Today, along
with its brave history, Kfar Etzion boasts a population of 400, two
identical synagogues and a communal spirit. Granted, the guard at the gate
is heavily armed, and an IDF base bristles with weaponry just across the
valley. But my mental image of Wild West outlaws squatting on illegal land
bore no resemblance to the child-friendly gardens and streets I saw, and the
peace-minded modern Orthodox residents I met.

Then I got to know a family from Ariel - friends of friends - whose
daughter, a promising jazz singer, frequently performs in Tel Aviv. These
folks are anything but religious settlers. They are, in fact, self-described
agnostics. They moved to Ariel decades ago when it was the only place in
which they could afford to buy a flat or raise a family. The father is a
brooding Holocaust survivor who lost more than 40 family members in the
camps and made aliya from the Balkans as a young man. The mother is a pretty
and cheerful sabra. They have three daughters, one in the IDF, and earn
their living in the hi-tech industry.

Finally, a couple of weeks ago I moved into a close friend's guest apartment
in Har Adar - a lovely and quiet suburb of Jerusalem, verdant with flowers
and trees, blessed with spectacular views of Jerusalem and of surrounding
Arab villages. Har Adar, although barely across the Green Line, is also a
settlement. I arrived for the summer just in time to hear Obama's demands
that all settlement growth must cease. As fate would have it, I had just
increased Har Adar's population by one.

FORMER AMBASSADOR to the UN Dore Gold recently explained in a column in *The
Jerusalem Post *that "Israeli settlements in the territories captured in the
1967 war date back more than 40 years. They began as military and
agricultural outposts that were located for the most part in strategically
significant areas of the West Bank, which Israel planned to eventually
claim. These settlements were also situated in areas from which Jews had
been evicted during the 1948-49 war..."

Other settlements were later erected deeper in Judea and Samaria for
ideological reasons, in an effort by religious Zionists to put down Jewish
roots again in such biblical places as Shiloh, Beit El and Efrata. But as
Gold pointed out, it was not until the Carter administration that the US
State Department declared settlements to be in violation of international
law. Yet Carter's policy was then reversed by all of his successors, who
deemed them problematic but not illegal.

This official approach persisted until 2001, when George Mitchell authored
the "Mitchell Report," which recommended that, as a part of
confidence-building measures between the parties, "Israel should freeze all
settlement activity, including the 'natural growth' of existing
settlements."

Clearly the size, character, appearance and reputation of the various
cities, towns, regional councils and neighborhoods within the settlement
enterprise vary significantly. There is, however, one kind of settlement
that really seems to embody the gun-toting, Wild West stereotype - the
"outpost"; and especially if it is populated by the most unruly of all the
settlers - the "hilltop youths."

In 1998, on the eve of the Wye Plantation talks that were to divide up the
West Bank, then-cabinet minister Ariel Sharon famously told the settlement
movement that "everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they
can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay
ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

Inspired by this command from their erstwhile hero and by the religious
vision of a Greater Israel based on biblically defined borders, a band of
religious nationalists began to occupy the barren, windy hilltops of
Samaria.

The first such hilltop outpost was established by a settler from Itamar,
overlooking the ancient city of Shechem (today's Nablus), who began parking
each of his sons on the successive peaks of a ridge running eastward down
towards the Jordan Valley. In the wake of that move, he has since become
head of the entire Samaria Regional Council, which includes 60,000 residents
spread over more than 30 communities.

I HAVE heard and read a range of arguments about the hilltop youths - some
commentators defend their patriotic courage and commitment to Judaism;
others describe them as troublemaking anarchists with no respect for
parents, rabbis or the State of Israel. They have grown up under a failed
Oslo peace process, a horrific wave of terrorism in the second intifada and
the August 2005 uprooting by prime minister Sharon of the very settlements
in Gaza that he had helped to establish. As some explain it, among this
third generation of settlers are those who no longer listen to or trust
anyone.

So when I was invited to visit a few of them in their far-flung communities,
I was eager to go. In my mind, when it comes to settlers, these sounded like
the "real thing," unlike my secular suburbanite neighbors in Har Adar.

We met first with David Ha'ivri, a liaison for the Samaria Regional Council
from the far-right community of Kfar Tapuah. He had agreed to take us to one
of the more established hilltop outposts - Givot Olam - several peaks over
on that ridge east of Itamar. He described it as a thriving "ranch" that is
not only the largest producer of organic eggs in Israel, but also provides
goat milk for retail establishments throughout the country. Givot Olam also
contains the largest ancient Jewish winepress and wine cellar ever found in
the region, dating back 3,200 years - almost to the time of Joshua's
conquest of the land.

Ha'ivri first guided us to the central feature of the outpost, a
light-filled community center with a spotless kitchen, dining room and
outside tables that provide a gathering place for the 50 young and
industrious residents who build its structures and tend to its animals. Yes,
there are guns around, and we were quietly informed that we weren't
particularly welcomed by all who were there - less because we were
Christians than because we were journalists, and therefore assumed to be
hostile. "They've been burned by reporters before," Ha'ivri explained.

Nonetheless, after a cup of coffee laced with goat's milk and sugar, we went
out to see the place. I'll leave it to politicians and rabbis and scholars
to argue the pros and cons of outposts such as Givot Olam and will simply
describe what is there.

OUR FIRST stop was at a stone memorial dedicated to Joshua, the biblical
hero. The mild-mannered young artist who designed it, Asaf Kidron, was
deeply grieved by Sharon's disengagement from Gaza. Here, on one of the very
hilltops Sharon had encouraged Israelis to settle, Kidron has fashioned a
monument out of stones from every place mentioned in the Bible where Joshua
set foot. His handiwork includes a lengthy tribute to the Israelite leader,
who challenged his people to have courage and strength as they took
possession of their God-given land.

We stood in an ancient winepress carved in bedrock circa 1,200 BCE, while
Ha'ivri told us about award-winning boutique wines now being produced in
Samaria. We also descended a narrow stone staircase for a quick look inside
a centuries-old wine cellar nearby.

>From there we walked to small but beautiful synagogue, also decorated by
Asaf Kidron. It was the first building constructed in Givot Olam after its
gifted and controversial founder, Avri Ran, pitched tents on the hilltop.
Since that time electricity and water and public transport have arrived. An
"at-risk youth" program has been set in motion, small children with colorful
backpacks walk safely to and from school and the organic farming enterprise
has prospered. Across the valley, Ha'ivri pointed out a Chabad yeshiva on
another hilltop.

As to Givot Olam's peace and security, in 2005 Avri Ran said, "The Arabs are
not afraid of me. They revere me. They are wary of me, yes. Have I set out
regulations? Certainly. There is not one Arab in the Nablus region who dares
to work contrary to my rules. Every Arab knows this. What does this say?
This says that there is a Jew in town, a son of Abraham our father - that
the ancient Jews have returned a little to the Land of Israel. And a Jew
must be respected..."

IT WAS Friday, and our hosts had to finish their duties before Shabbat, but
on our way back we stopped briefly to see the goats in one of the ranch's
immaculate barns. I walked into a surreally tranquil scene, with sun
filtering through skylights, and singing birds flying in and out of the
broad doorways. Ha'ivri pointed toward a loft above me as I stood inside the
barn. "Do you see that piano?" he asked me. "Someone plays the piano while
the goats are being milked, to soothe them."

Minutes later, we headed for Har Adar. I left Givot Olam with the idea that
I'd probably return. For one thing, I'm curious about a local wine and
goat-cheese tasting event scheduled to take place there in coming weeks. But
I also hope to learn a little more about the people who live on the
windswept hilltops: What do they hope for and what do they fear? How they
will react to President Obama's hard-line stance against settlement growth,
and to the government's response? Just how serious are they about their vow
that there will be no more uprooting of settlements or outposts "without a
price."

Their answers may be as unyielding as the ancient Samarian stones. Because
if what I've read about these settlers is true, in recent years they have
drawn a few hard lines of their own.

*The writer has authored or coauthored more than 60 books, primarily in
ecumenical Christian nonfiction, including the award-winning *Blind Spot:
When Journalists Don't Get Religion *(Oxford University Press, 2009). She is
an adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute.*

_______________________________________________
Update mailing listUpdate at yeshuv.orghttp://yeshuv.org/mailman/listinfo/update_yeshuv.org
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 14:37:32 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & Universal Freedom"
Message-ID: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>

FYI....
           * Hanoch*
**
 The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom
By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All
rights reserved.     Over the last few decades starting here in the West and
spreading out around the world there has grown what some call a new
"religious" movement called Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide
obviously comes from the name Noah, the man famous for building the Ark.
According to the Bible, only Noah and his sons survived the ancient flood,
therefore all humanity is called by his name, thus we are all "children of
Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is
equally applicable to Jews and non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the
traditional Jewish term for all humanity.

The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in Judaism
that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on the
other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a
universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the
Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder,
not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal
(which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in
balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable
societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these
principles and values.

These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown
and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door
of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert
Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to
better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of
these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity
and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the
Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and
became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a
path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological
imprisonments of one religion or another.

Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based
upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United
States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to
the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas
Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with
these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their
earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides.

Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression
of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America
herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or
path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish
people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the
ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of
Independence states, *"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness." *What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can
be followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused
upon these universal rights and principles for all humanity.

Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also
tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological
beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many
aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins.
Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in
their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling,
therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which
they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a
terrible mistake.

Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom,
responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings.
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or
ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any
resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish.

True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human
being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all
nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race
of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe
ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine
Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single
common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come
from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny.

Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and
conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the
universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the
children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should
understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these
United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all
humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive
by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the
Ten Commandments.

The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian.
Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian
beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many
Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal
path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or
arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a
new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts
are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism
by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon
Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern
Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and
vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable.

Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today
the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself
neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this
conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the
threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push
and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom.
These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion
and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in
the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk.

Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human.
The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted,
although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have
failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the
behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the
occasion.

The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide
universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral
obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to
become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot
allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon
which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular
social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made
the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again.

The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the
peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a
message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to
throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals
that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the
entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world
could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and
responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we
stand and divided we fall.

The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that
binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over
liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded,
sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American
agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and
cultural differences.

In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just
the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of
freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and
make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message
of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you
the Ten Commandments.

May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all.
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From webhulon at msn.com  Thu Jul  2 17:38:04 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:38:04 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July & Universal
	Freedom"
In-Reply-To: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,

 

Please notice the following statements taken from this article:

 

"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 

True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 

 

This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  

 

This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?

 

Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  

 

I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.

 

Web


 


Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom"


FYI....
            Hanoch
 

The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. 







 Over the last few decades starting here in the West and spreading out around the world there has grown what some call a new "religious" movement called Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide obviously comes from the name Noah, the man famous for building the Ark. According to the Bible, only Noah and his sons survived the ancient flood, therefore all humanity is called by his name, thus we are all "children of Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is equally applicable to Jews and non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the traditional Jewish term for all humanity. 
The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in Judaism that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on the other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder, not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal (which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these principles and values. 

These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological imprisonments of one religion or another. 

Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides. 

Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can be followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused upon these universal rights and principles for all humanity. 

Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins. Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling, therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a terrible mistake. 

Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom, responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings. It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 

True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny. 

Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the Ten Commandments. 

The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian. Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable. 

Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom. These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk. 

Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human. The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted, although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the occasion. 

The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again. 

The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we stand and divided we fall. 

The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded, sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and cultural differences. 

In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you the Ten Commandments. 
May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all. 



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  2 22:45:49 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:45:49 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Parashat Chukat.
Message-ID: <4A4D7EED.2090003@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  2 22:53:45 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:53:45 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Recognizing Mashiach
Message-ID: <4A4D80C9.4020909@westnet.com.au>

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  2 23:00:10 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:00:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] 'An outpost carved in bedrock'
In-Reply-To: <855590370907021229r46fa4e78h8c4b1825cb4e3056@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070320090400.14601.4A4D8248000C52450000390922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Okay, I have been silent for awhile.  But this is pressing my buttons.  Who the hell do Barak Obama and Hillary Clinton (all due respect to the offices that they hold) think they are to dictate to the Israeli people what they should or should not do?  While at the same time, declaring that the US has no business "meddling" in Iran's election AND at the same time launching a focused strike in Afghanistan just before their "so-called" democratic elections.

Are we blind?

For those who are for ending the dialogue list, you better think twice.  China is cracking down on electronic communicatons as we speak, so is Iran.  We need to keep every channel open.  To put it more clearly, if that is what you want, you will have to come through me first.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

This evening, or at least, before Shabbat, I will, G-d willing post a couple of ideas that you can implement to stand along with the heroic Jews of Yehuda v'Shomron - Judea & Samaria, OUR Biblical heartland... 
                                    Hanoch
An outpost carved in bedrock
Jul. 1, 2009
lela gilbert , THE JERUSALEM POST 
In recent weeks, US President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have placed the words "Israeli settlements" on the front pages of global newspapers. In the administration's rush to revive the Middle East peace process, both have demanded a freeze on settlements, including "natural growth," which to the ears of some Israelis amounts to a ban on childbearing and room additions. 
This leaves one asking, first of all, what is a settlement? The definition of this hot-button political term has always been a little confusing to me. A couple of years ago, I was invited to visit a rabbi and his family in Kfar Etzion - part of the Gush Etzion settlement bloc (population 60,000). This rabbi is the son of a friend back in California, and his pleasant home is situated in what a Californian like me would call a "gated community." 
Kfar Etzion was rebuilt near the scene of a 1948 massacre of Jews; the survivors vowed to return, and after the Six Day War they did. Today, along with its brave history, Kfar Etzion boasts a population of 400, two identical synagogues and a communal spirit. Granted, the guard at the gate is heavily armed, and an IDF base bristles with weaponry just across the valley. But my mental image of Wild West outlaws squatting on illegal land bore no resemblance to the child-friendly gardens and streets I saw, and the peace-minded modern Orthodox residents I met. 
Then I got to know a family from Ariel - friends of friends - whose daughter, a promising jazz singer, frequently performs in Tel Aviv. These folks are anything but religious settlers. They are, in fact, self-described agnostics. They moved to Ariel decades ago when it was the only place in which they could afford to buy a flat or raise a family. The father is a brooding Holocaust survivor who lost more than 40 family members in the camps and made aliya from the Balkans as a young man. The mother is a pretty and cheerful sabra. They have three daughters, one in the IDF, and earn their living in the hi-tech industry. 
Finally, a couple of weeks ago I moved into a close friend's guest apartment in Har Adar - a lovely and quiet suburb of Jerusalem, verdant with flowers and trees, blessed with spectacular views of Jerusalem and of surrounding Arab villages. Har Adar, although barely across the Green Line, is also a settlement. I arrived for the summer just in time to hear Obama's demands that all settlement growth must cease. As fate would have it, I had just increased Har Adar's population by one. 
FORMER AMBASSADOR to the UN Dore Gold recently explained in a column in The Jerusalem Post that "Israeli settlements in the territories captured in the 1967 war date back more than 40 years. They began as military and agricultural outposts that were located for the most part in strategically significant areas of the West Bank, which Israel planned to eventually claim. These settlements were also situated in areas from which Jews had been evicted during the 1948-49 war..." 
Other settlements were later erected deeper in Judea and Samaria for ideological reasons, in an effort by religious Zionists to put down Jewish roots again in such biblical places as Shiloh, Beit El and Efrata. But as Gold pointed out, it was not until the Carter administration that the US State Department declared settlements to be in violation of international law. Yet Carter's policy was then reversed by all of his successors, who deemed them problematic but not illegal. 
This official approach persisted until 2001, when George Mitchell authored the "Mitchell Report," which recommended that, as a part of confidence-building measures between the parties, "Israel should freeze all settlement activity, including the 'natural growth' of existing settlements." 
Clearly the size, character, appearance and reputation of the various cities, towns, regional councils and neighborhoods within the settlement enterprise vary significantly. There is, however, one kind of settlement that really seems to embody the gun-toting, Wild West stereotype - the "outpost"; and especially if it is populated by the most unruly of all the settlers - the "hilltop youths." 
In 1998, on the eve of the Wye Plantation talks that were to divide up the West Bank, then-cabinet minister Ariel Sharon famously told the settlement movement that "everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." 
Inspired by this command from their erstwhile hero and by the religious vision of a Greater Israel based on biblically defined borders, a band of religious nationalists began to occupy the barren, windy hilltops of Samaria. 
The first such hilltop outpost was established by a settler from Itamar, overlooking the ancient city of Shechem (today's Nablus), who began parking each of his sons on the successive peaks of a ridge running eastward down towards the Jordan Valley. In the wake of that move, he has since become head of the entire Samaria Regional Council, which includes 60,000 residents spread over more than 30 communities. 
I HAVE heard and read a range of arguments about the hilltop youths - some commentators defend their patriotic courage and commitment to Judaism; others describe them as troublemaking anarchists with no respect for parents, rabbis or the State of Israel. They have grown up under a failed Oslo peace process, a horrific wave of terrorism in the second intifada and the August 2005 uprooting by prime minister Sharon of the very settlements in Gaza that he had helped to establish. As some explain it, among this third generation of settlers are those who no longer listen to or trust anyone. 
So when I was invited to visit a few of them in their far-flung communities, I was eager to go. In my mind, when it comes to settlers, these sounded like the "real thing," unlike my secular suburbanite neighbors in Har Adar. 
We met first with David Ha'ivri, a liaison for the Samaria Regional Council from the far-right community of Kfar Tapuah. He had agreed to take us to one of the more established hilltop outposts - Givot Olam - several peaks over on that ridge east of Itamar. He described it as a thriving "ranch" that is not only the largest producer of organic eggs in Israel, but also provides goat milk for retail establishments throughout the country. Givot Olam also contains the largest ancient Jewish winepress and wine cellar ever found in the region, dating back 3,200 years - almost to the time of Joshua's conquest of the land. 
Ha'ivri first guided us to the central feature of the outpost, a light-filled community center with a spotless kitchen, dining room and outside tables that provide a gathering place for the 50 young and industrious residents who build its structures and tend to its animals. Yes, there are guns around, and we were quietly informed that we weren't particularly welcomed by all who were there - less because we were Christians than because we were journalists, and therefore assumed to be hostile. "They've been burned by reporters before," Ha'ivri explained. 
Nonetheless, after a cup of coffee laced with goat's milk and sugar, we went out to see the place. I'll leave it to politicians and rabbis and scholars to argue the pros and cons of outposts such as Givot Olam and will simply describe what is there. 
OUR FIRST stop was at a stone memorial dedicated to Joshua, the biblical hero. The mild-mannered young artist who designed it, Asaf Kidron, was deeply grieved by Sharon's disengagement from Gaza. Here, on one of the very hilltops Sharon had encouraged Israelis to settle, Kidron has fashioned a monument out of stones from every place mentioned in the Bible where Joshua set foot. His handiwork includes a lengthy tribute to the Israelite leader, who challenged his people to have courage and strength as they took possession of their God-given land. 
We stood in an ancient winepress carved in bedrock circa 1,200 BCE, while Ha'ivri told us about award-winning boutique wines now being produced in Samaria. We also descended a narrow stone staircase for a quick look inside a centuries-old wine cellar nearby. 
>From there we walked to small but beautiful synagogue, also decorated by Asaf Kidron. It was the first building constructed in Givot Olam after its gifted and controversial founder, Avri Ran, pitched tents on the hilltop. Since that time electricity and water and public transport have arrived. An "at-risk youth" program has been set in motion, small children with colorful backpacks walk safely to and from school and the organic farming enterprise has prospered. Across the valley, Ha'ivri pointed out a Chabad yeshiva on another hilltop. 
As to Givot Olam's peace and security, in 2005 Avri Ran said, "The Arabs are not afraid of me. They revere me. They are wary of me, yes. Have I set out regulations? Certainly. There is not one Arab in the Nablus region who dares to work contrary to my rules. Every Arab knows this. What does this say? This says that there is a Jew in town, a son of Abraham our father - that the ancient Jews have returned a little to the Land of Israel. And a Jew must be respected..." 
IT WAS Friday, and our hosts had to finish their duties before Shabbat, but on our way back we stopped briefly to see the goats in one of the ranch's immaculate barns. I walked into a surreally tranquil scene, with sun filtering through skylights, and singing birds flying in and out of the broad doorways. Ha'ivri pointed toward a loft above me as I stood inside the barn. "Do you see that piano?" he asked me. "Someone plays the piano while the goats are being milked, to soothe them." 
Minutes later, we headed for Har Adar. I left Givot Olam with the idea that I'd probably return. For one thing, I'm curious about a local wine and goat-cheese tasting event scheduled to take place there in coming weeks. But I also hope to learn a little more about the people who live on the windswept hilltops: What do they hope for and what do they fear? How they will react to President Obama's hard-line stance against settlement growth, and to the government's response? Just how serious are they about their vow that there will be no more uprooting of settlements or outposts "without a price." 
Their answers may be as unyielding as the ancient Samarian stones. Because if what I've read about these settlers is true, in recent years they have drawn a few hard lines of their own. 
The writer has authored or coauthored more than 60 books, primarily in ecumenical Christian nonfiction, including the award-winning Blind Spot: When Journalists Don't Get Religion (Oxford University Press, 2009). She is an adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute.


_______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Jul  3 05:57:17 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 06:57:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before Shabbat
Message-ID: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>

Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate to
it on such a special level....
               Shabbat Shalom - *Hanoch*
**
Friday, 03 July 2009
*The River's Song
*Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,

I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt.
As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths.
Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
Oklahoma

 Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in
Inspiration<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/>,
Lazer's friends <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/>,
Music <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/>, Prayer and
Meditation<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>
| Permalink<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  4 08:57:43 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:57:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS221E3E0C378300F383639EBA2C0@phx.gbl>

Sincerely hope to hear more from you, Web.  Please, if you have a chance, elaborate on this subject.  I believe it very important, and one that needs be explored.  The first verse that came to mind when I read your email was Zechariah 14:16:  

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations who came against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the L-RD of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths."

Does the above indicate that a world is coming in which our Father will be King over all the earth, and all inhabitants of the nations that once opposed His Torah will yearly present themselves to Him, and keep His Festival of Sukkot?  Like you, I cannot imagine a world that should be discouraged from walking in His Teaching.  The Ten Commandments are said to encompass all aspects of the Torah in ten categories, and if they are not THE UNIVERSAL MEASURE OF ALL THINGS, I don't know what it would be.

Thank you so much for speaking up about this,    


Avigail/Pat  


From: Web Hulon 
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:38 PM
To: roots of faith 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom"


FYI....
            Hanoch

The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom 
By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved.  
     
     
 Over the last few decades starting here in the West and spreading out around the world there has grown what some call a new "religious" movement called Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide obviously comes from the name Noah, the man famous for building the Ark. According to the Bible, only Noah and his sons survived the ancient flood, therefore all humanity is called by his name, thus we are all "children of Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is equally applicable to Jews and non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the traditional Jewish term for all humanity. The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in Judaism that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on the other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder, not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal (which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these principles and values. 
These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological imprisonments of one religion or another. 
Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides. 
Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can be followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused upon these universal rights and principles for all humanity. 
Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins. Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling, therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a terrible mistake. 
Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom, responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings. It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny. 
Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the Ten Commandments. 
The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian. Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable. 
Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom. These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk. 
Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human. The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted, although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the occasion. 
The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again. 
The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we stand and divided we fall. 
The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded, sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and cultural differences. 
In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you the Ten Commandments. 
May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all. 





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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  3 09:09:57 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 07:09:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] 'An outpost carved in bedrock'
Message-ID: <20212.11115.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Agreed, John...I guess it would be a tad redundant to quote George Orwell at this juncture.
?
As I see it, we are seeing first hand, in living color, soundbite by soundbite, the stage being set for YHVH's return to stop the madness: governments suffering from megalomania running completely amok, a world where ever more frequently bad is called good and good bad, justice turned on its ear, suffering and sorrow growing exponentially, the righteous ones persecuted on every side... I often wonder just how much longer can it continue? 
?
Were I not resting confidently in the knowledge that YHVH will have His day, I too might be one whose heart failed him for the things coming on the earth, and join those who fall into apostasy...

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'An outpost carved in bedrock'
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:00 PM




Okay, I have been silent for awhile.? But this is pressing my buttons.? Who the hell do Barak Obama and Hillary Clinton (all due respect to the offices that they hold) think they are to dictate to the Israeli people what they should or should not do?? While at the same time, declaring that the US has no business "meddling" in Iran's election AND at the same time launching a focused strike in Afghanistan just before their "so-called" democratic elections.
?
Are we blind?
?
For those who are for ending the dialogue list, you better think twice.? China is cracking down on electronic communicatons as we speak, so is Iran.? We need to keep every channel open.? To put it more clearly, if that is what you want, you will have to come through me first.
?
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?
-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

This evening, or at least, before Shabbat, I will, G-d willing post a couple of?ideas that you can implement to stand along with the heroic Jews of Yehuda v'Shomron - Judea & Samaria, OUR Biblical heartland... 
??????????????????????????????????? Hanoch

An outpost carved in bedrock
Jul. 1, 2009
lela gilbert , THE JERUSALEM POST 
In recent weeks, US President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have placed the words "Israeli settlements" on the front pages of global newspapers. In the administration's rush to revive the Middle East peace process, both have demanded a freeze on settlements, including "natural growth," which to the ears of some Israelis amounts to a ban on childbearing and room additions. 
This leaves one asking, first of all, what is a settlement? The definition of this hot-button political term has always been a little confusing to me. A couple of years ago, I was invited to visit a rabbi and his family in Kfar Etzion - part of the Gush Etzion settlement bloc (population 60,000). This rabbi is the son of a friend back in California, and his pleasant home is situated in what a Californian like me would call a "gated community." 
Kfar Etzion was rebuilt near the scene of a 1948 massacre of Jews; the survivors vowed to return, and after the Six Day War they did. Today, along with its brave history, Kfar Etzion boasts a population of 400, two identical synagogues and a communal spirit. Granted, the guard at the gate is heavily armed, and an IDF base bristles with weaponry just across the valley. But my mental image of Wild West outlaws squatting on illegal land bore no resemblance to the child-friendly gardens and streets I saw, and the peace-minded modern Orthodox residents I met. 
Then I got to know a family from Ariel - friends of friends - whose daughter, a promising jazz singer, frequently performs in Tel Aviv. These folks are anything but religious settlers. They are, in fact, self-described agnostics. They moved to Ariel decades ago when it was the only place in which they could afford to buy a flat or raise a family. The father is a brooding Holocaust survivor who lost more than 40 family members in the camps and made aliya from the Balkans as a young man. The mother is a pretty and cheerful sabra. They have three daughters, one in the IDF, and earn their living in the hi-tech industry. 
Finally, a couple of weeks ago I moved into a close friend's guest apartment in Har Adar - a lovely and quiet suburb of Jerusalem, verdant with flowers and trees, blessed with spectacular views of Jerusalem and of surrounding Arab villages. Har Adar, although barely across the Green Line, is also a settlement. I arrived for the summer just in time to hear Obama's demands that all settlement growth must cease. As fate would have it, I had just increased Har Adar's population by one. 
FORMER AMBASSADOR to the UN Dore Gold recently explained in a column in The Jerusalem Post that "Israeli settlements in the territories captured in the 1967 war date back more than 40 years. They began as military and agricultural outposts that were located for the most part in strategically significant areas of the West Bank, which Israel planned to eventually claim. These settlements were also situated in areas from which Jews had been evicted during the 1948-49 war..." 
Other settlements were later erected deeper in Judea and Samaria for ideological reasons, in an effort by religious Zionists to put down Jewish roots again in such biblical places as Shiloh, Beit El and Efrata. But as Gold pointed out, it was not until the Carter administration that the US State Department declared settlements to be in violation of international law. Yet Carter's policy was then reversed by all of his successors, who deemed them problematic but not illegal. 
This official approach persisted until 2001, when George Mitchell authored the "Mitchell Report," which recommended that, as a part of confidence-building measures between the parties, "Israel should freeze all settlement activity, including the 'natural growth' of existing settlements." 
Clearly the size, character, appearance and reputation of the various cities, towns, regional councils and neighborhoods within the settlement enterprise vary significantly. There is, however, one kind of settlement that really seems to embody the gun-toting, Wild West stereotype - the "outpost"; and especially if it is populated by the most unruly of all the settlers - the "hilltop youths." 
In 1998, on the eve of the Wye Plantation talks that were to divide up the West Bank, then-cabinet minister Ariel Sharon famously told the settlement movement that "everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." 
Inspired by this command from their erstwhile hero and by the religious vision of a Greater Israel based on biblically defined borders, a band of religious nationalists began to occupy the barren, windy hilltops of Samaria. 
The first such hilltop outpost was established by a settler from Itamar, overlooking the ancient city of Shechem (today's Nablus), who began parking each of his sons on the successive peaks of a ridge running eastward down towards the Jordan Valley. In the wake of that move, he has since become head of the entire Samaria Regional Council, which includes 60,000 residents spread over more than 30 communities. 
I HAVE heard and read a range of arguments about the hilltop youths - some commentators defend their patriotic courage and commitment to Judaism; others describe them as troublemaking anarchists with no respect for parents, rabbis or the State of Israel. They have grown up under a failed Oslo peace process, a horrific wave of terrorism in the second intifada and the August 2005 uprooting by prime minister Sharon of the very settlements in Gaza that he had helped to establish. As some explain it, among this third generation of settlers are those who no longer listen to or trust anyone. 
So when I was invited to visit a few of them in their far-flung communities, I was eager to go. In my mind, when it comes to settlers, these sounded like the "real thing," unlike my secular suburbanite neighbors in Har Adar. 
We met first with David Ha'ivri, a liaison for the Samaria Regional Council from the far-right community of Kfar Tapuah. He had agreed to take us to one of the more established hilltop outposts - Givot Olam - several peaks over on that ridge east of Itamar. He described it as a thriving "ranch" that is not only the largest producer of organic eggs in Israel, but also provides goat milk for retail establishments throughout the country. Givot Olam also contains the largest ancient Jewish winepress and wine cellar ever found in the region, dating back 3,200 years - almost to the time of Joshua's conquest of the land. 
Ha'ivri first guided us to the central feature of the outpost, a light-filled community center with a spotless kitchen, dining room and outside tables that provide a gathering place for the 50 young and industrious residents who build its structures and tend to its animals. Yes, there are guns around, and we were quietly informed that we weren't particularly welcomed by all who were there - less because we were Christians than because we were journalists, and therefore assumed to be hostile. "They've been burned by reporters before," Ha'ivri explained. 
Nonetheless, after a cup of coffee laced with goat's milk and sugar, we went out to see the place. I'll leave it to politicians and rabbis and scholars to argue the pros and cons of outposts such as Givot Olam and will simply describe what is there. 
OUR FIRST stop was at a stone memorial dedicated to Joshua, the biblical hero. The mild-mannered young artist who designed it, Asaf Kidron, was deeply grieved by Sharon's disengagement from Gaza. Here, on one of the very hilltops Sharon had encouraged Israelis to settle, Kidron has fashioned a monument out of stones from every place mentioned in the Bible where Joshua set foot. His handiwork includes a lengthy tribute to the Israelite leader, who challenged his people to have courage and strength as they took possession of their God-given land. 
We stood in an ancient winepress carved in bedrock circa 1,200 BCE, while Ha'ivri told us about award-winning boutique wines now being produced in Samaria. We also descended a narrow stone staircase for a quick look inside a centuries-old wine cellar nearby. 
>From there we walked to small but beautiful synagogue, also decorated by Asaf Kidron. It was the first building constructed in Givot Olam after its gifted and controversial founder, Avri Ran, pitched tents on the hilltop. Since that time electricity and water and public transport have arrived. An "at-risk youth" program has been set in motion, small children with colorful backpacks walk safely to and from school and the organic farming enterprise has prospered. Across the valley, Ha'ivri pointed out a Chabad yeshiva on another hilltop. 
As to Givot Olam's peace and security, in 2005 Avri Ran said, "The Arabs are not afraid of me. They revere me. They are wary of me, yes. Have I set out regulations? Certainly. There is not one Arab in the Nablus region who dares to work contrary to my rules. Every Arab knows this. What does this say? This says that there is a Jew in town, a son of Abraham our father - that the ancient Jews have returned a little to the Land of Israel. And a Jew must be respected..." 
IT WAS Friday, and our hosts had to finish their duties before Shabbat, but on our way back we stopped briefly to see the goats in one of the ranch's immaculate barns. I walked into a surreally tranquil scene, with sun filtering through skylights, and singing birds flying in and out of the broad doorways. Ha'ivri pointed toward a loft above me as I stood inside the barn. "Do you see that piano?" he asked me. "Someone plays the piano while the goats are being milked, to soothe them." 
Minutes later, we headed for Har Adar. I left Givot Olam with the idea that I'd probably return. For one thing, I'm curious about a local wine and goat-cheese tasting event scheduled to take place there in coming weeks. But I also hope to learn a little more about the people who live on the windswept hilltops: What do they hope for and what do they fear? How they will react to President Obama's hard-line stance against settlement growth, and to the government's response? Just how serious are they about their vow that there will be no more uprooting of settlements or outposts "without a price." 
Their answers may be as unyielding as the ancient Samarian stones. Because if what I've read about these settlers is true, in recent years they have drawn a few hard lines of their own. 
The writer has authored or coauthored more than 60 books, primarily in ecumenical Christian nonfiction, including the award-winning Blind Spot: When Journalists Don't Get Religion (Oxford University Press, 2009). She is an adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute.

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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 10:48:43 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] What does Freedom Mean Anyway?
Message-ID: <112869.79122.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-does-freedom-mean-anyway.html

With the 4th of July coming up, it is easy to get distracted by all the flag waving, the tricolor banners and the emphasis on national independence, to forget that the American Revolution was caused by the political abuse of power, rather than by a pure striving toward national independence. Rather than an independence movement on the grounds of national identity, the American Revolution saw British citizens revolting against incursions on their rights and freedoms by a distant and powerful government.


The 4th of July commemorates the adoption of the Declaration of Independence, not a military victory that marked the end of British rule such as the Battle of Yorktown or the anniversary of the beginning of American government with the United States Constitution or Washington's inauguration-- all of which would seem to be legitimate dates as well. Instead it commemorates a document which created no specific governmental authority, but instead lays out as its key doctrine, freedom.

The Declaration of Independence argues that rights are natural, and do not require a divinely appointed intercessor between man and G-d, in the form of a monarch. It states that the people of the United States do not derive their laws from being the subjects of a king, but from natural rights inherent in every human being, and that above all else they have the right to live, to be free and to pursue the course of their lives as they see fit.

This was a bold statement to make in a time when government received its authority from tradition and held its people as subjects, when church and state were intertwined so that the state held religious and even divine authority. The Declaration of Independence rejected the sanctity of government, instead putting forward the idea that government is nothing more than the consensual agreement of people as a tool for maintaining their affairs.

In a few short words what the 4th of July marks is a document that stated that henceforth in America, the people would not be creature of their government, but the government would be a creature of the people. The Declaration of Independence was not simply a declaration of national independence or the independence of the thirteen states-- it was a declaration of individual independence. It stated that not only did each American have rights and freedoms independent of any government, but that the government was his to make or unmake.

And yet the average American of 2009 is far more a creature of the government, than a colonial of 1769 ever was.

Thanks to the tattered remains of the Constitution the American of 2009 has managed to maintain some key political freedoms that his counterpart in 1769 did not have, but for all that his life is a tightly regimented and heavily taxed affair, overseen by a distant central government and its "multitude of New Offices" and their "swarms of Officers to harrass our people and eat out their substance" that the Declaration had complained about. Except today we call them Czars.

All this happened because Americans spent far too much time celebrating the forms of government, while forgetting the substance of their rights. Generations view the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as sacred documents, without actually understanding the fundamental principles that they embody. Meanwhile an activist judiciary has worked hard to create new "rights" out of whole cloth in the Constitution to be administered by the government, only to take away the plain rights that actually do exist in the Constitution. Government has become centralized and absolute.

We can still vote in legislators and executives, within the narrow parameters of a two party system in which both parties are absolutely committed to the expansion of government power. We cannot however vote away the bureaucracy, the "multitude of new Offices" and "swarms of Officers", who rule our lives directly, and whose numbers constantly keep growing without number.

The American political system has become a self-perpetuating interest group run by lawyers for the benefit of their supporters. A group that considers constitutional literalism to be outmoded and views government as a nanny caring for people who cannot properly care for themselves.

The British monarchy saw colonials as childlike subjects. The American government today sees them as self-destructive infants, too stupid to know what is good for them. The fundamental doctrine of tyranny in American today is no longer the divine authority of the king, but the temporal authority of the social worker. Both are premised on the incompetence and inequality of the ruled in relation to the rulers.


It is a given that people who cannot take care of themselves without help are inferior to those who care for them. And whatever pretty words it may be dressed up in, those who are cared for have less freedom and independence than their self-appointed caretakers.

And so the nanny government constantly searches for new ways to project its subjects from themselves, while finding ways to turn a tidy profit on the arrangement. Are the pesky subjects smoking? Are they eating fatty foods? Are they driving fast cars, building houses not up to code and using plastic bags? Are they gambling, drinking and using insensitive language? Don't they know it's not good for them. "There oughta be a law" and sooner or later there is.

American government began as a tool with limited power, a hacksaw or an ax, and has since become a giant power jack of all trades with 300 different drills, saws and instruments built in, but which is too heavy to actually move anywhere or do anything with. But our fascination with the tool we had drove us to do what humans always do with tools, improve them to be able to do more. And government began doing more. Year by year, decade by decade and century by century, it grew larger and more powerful. And there came a day when no one knew how to shut it off anymore.

What does freedom mean anyway? Freedom as embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the 4th of July means freedom from government. The freedom to choose and shape laws and to treat government as a tool, rather than a master.

For now we still have ballots and voting booths. We can elect and unelect politicians. And when we elect the "wrong ones", the media and cultural establishment will smear them and tear them apart until we see reason and elect the men and women that they support. For now we still have that. But there were ballots and voting booths and in the USSR. There are ballots and voting booths in Iran. The key question is not simply who counts the votes, but do the votes actually count?

Democracy alone means that those who vote have a degree of control over the election of candidates. How much control they have depends on factors such as how open the nomination process is, how much influence raw money has on elections and help determine how much power vested interests exercise over the system, rather than the actual constituents.

In American politics, democracy has become a game in which winning the popular vote is the final goal. Those are the rules of the game that the various corporations, lobbies and special interest groups continue to play by in order to get what they want. For now. It is not inconceivable that they might at one date decided that they would be better served by modifying the rules of the game.

When the Republican governor of California and the Democratic assembly failed to win the public's constant for new taxes on the ballot, the immediate response from many pundits was to argue that the people of California had failed to make the right decision, and with adduced proof from their previous votes against illegal immigrants and gay marriage, should no longer be able to vote on ballot measures.

In East Germany, Erich Honecker once stated that the government had lost confidence in the people, and that they would have to regain the government's trust. There may come a time when the government loses confidence in the American people. As the King of England once lost confidence in his subjects.?

Against that day, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.?

That is what freedom means. Government is either a slave of the citizenry or its master. In a free nation, government is a slave. In a slave nation, it is a master.
Shabbat Shalom,
Cody





      
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  4 11:23:34 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:23:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] What does Freedom Mean Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <112869.79122.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <112869.79122.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS24209D60747B0D28963C5ABA2C0@phx.gbl>

WOW!!!
What a beautifully stated document, Cody.  Thank you so much for this.   May "WE THE PEOPLE" reclaim our country, and live as free men and women, rejecting a morphed nanny-government!

Avigail/Pat 




From: Cody 
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:48 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] What does Freedom Mean Anyway?







--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-does-freedom-mean-anyway.html



      With the 4th of July coming up, it is easy to get distracted by all the flag waving, the tricolor banners and the emphasis on national independence, to forget that the American Revolution was caused by the political abuse of power, rather than by a pure striving toward national independence. Rather than an independence movement on the grounds of national identity, the American Revolution saw British citizens revolting against incursions on their rights and freedoms by a distant and powerful government.



      The 4th of July commemorates the adoption of the Declaration of Independence, not a military victory that marked the end of British rule such as the Battle of Yorktown or the anniversary of the beginning of American government with the United States Constitution or Washington's inauguration-- all of which would seem to be legitimate dates as well. Instead it commemorates a document which created no specific governmental authority, but instead lays out as its key doctrine, freedom.

      The Declaration of Independence argues that rights are natural, and do not require a divinely appointed intercessor between man and G-d, in the form of a monarch. It states that the people of the United States do not derive their laws from being the subjects of a king, but from natural rights inherent in every human being, and that above all else they have the right to live, to be free and to pursue the course of their lives as they see fit.

      This was a bold statement to make in a time when government received its authority from tradition and held its people as subjects, when church and state were intertwined so that the state held religious and even divine authority. The Declaration of Independence rejected the sanctity of government, instead putting forward the idea that government is nothing more than the consensual agreement of people as a tool for maintaining their affairs.

      In a few short words what the 4th of July marks is a document that stated that henceforth in America, the people would not be creature of their government, but the government would be a creature of the people. The Declaration of Independence was not simply a declaration of national independence or the independence of the thirteen states-- it was a declaration of individual independence. It stated that not only did each American have rights and freedoms independent of any government, but that the government was his to make or unmake.

      And yet the average American of 2009 is far more a creature of the government, than a colonial of 1769 ever was.

      Thanks to the tattered remains of the Constitution the American of 2009 has managed to maintain some key political freedoms that his counterpart in 1769 did not have, but for all that his life is a tightly regimented and heavily taxed affair, overseen by a distant central government and its "multitude of New Offices" and their "swarms of Officers to harrass our people and eat out their substance" that the Declaration had complained about. Except today we call them Czars.

      All this happened because Americans spent far too much time celebrating the forms of government, while forgetting the substance of their rights. Generations view the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as sacred documents, without actually understanding the fundamental principles that they embody. Meanwhile an activist judiciary has worked hard to create new "rights" out of whole cloth in the Constitution to be administered by the government, only to take away the plain rights that actually do exist in the Constitution. Government has become centralized and absolute.

      We can still vote in legislators and executives, within the narrow parameters of a two party system in which both parties are absolutely committed to the expansion of government power. We cannot however vote away the bureaucracy, the "multitude of new Offices" and "swarms of Officers", who rule our lives directly, and whose numbers constantly keep growing without number.

      The American political system has become a self-perpetuating interest group run by lawyers for the benefit of their supporters. A group that considers constitutional literalism to be outmoded and views government as a nanny caring for people who cannot properly care for themselves.

      The British monarchy saw colonials as childlike subjects. The American government today sees them as self-destructive infants, too stupid to know what is good for them. The fundamental doctrine of tyranny in American today is no longer the divine authority of the king, but the temporal authority of the social worker. Both are premised on the incompetence and inequality of the ruled in relation to the rulers.



      It is a given that people who cannot take care of themselves without help are inferior to those who care for them. And whatever pretty words it may be dressed up in, those who are cared for have less freedom and independence than their self-appointed caretakers.

      And so the nanny government constantly searches for new ways to project its subjects from themselves, while finding ways to turn a tidy profit on the arrangement. Are the pesky subjects smoking? Are they eating fatty foods? Are they driving fast cars, building houses not up to code and using plastic bags? Are they gambling, drinking and using insensitive language? Don't they know it's not good for them. "There oughta be a law" and sooner or later there is.

      American government began as a tool with limited power, a hacksaw or an ax, and has since become a giant power jack of all trades with 300 different drills, saws and instruments built in, but which is too heavy to actually move anywhere or do anything with. But our fascination with the tool we had drove us to do what humans always do with tools, improve them to be able to do more. And government began doing more. Year by year, decade by decade and century by century, it grew larger and more powerful. And there came a day when no one knew how to shut it off anymore.

      What does freedom mean anyway? Freedom as embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the 4th of July means freedom from government. The freedom to choose and shape laws and to treat government as a tool, rather than a master.

      For now we still have ballots and voting booths. We can elect and unelect politicians. And when we elect the "wrong ones", the media and cultural establishment will smear them and tear them apart until we see reason and elect the men and women that they support. For now we still have that. But there were ballots and voting booths and in the USSR. There are ballots and voting booths in Iran. The key question is not simply who counts the votes, but do the votes actually count?


      Democracy alone means that those who vote have a degree of control over the election of candidates. How much control they have depends on factors such as how open the nomination process is, how much influence raw money has on elections and help determine how much power vested interests exercise over the system, rather than the actual constituents.

      In American politics, democracy has become a game in which winning the popular vote is the final goal. Those are the rules of the game that the various corporations, lobbies and special interest groups continue to play by in order to get what they want. For now. It is not inconceivable that they might at one date decided that they would be better served by modifying the rules of the game.

      When the Republican governor of California and the Democratic assembly failed to win the public's constant for new taxes on the ballot, the immediate response from many pundits was to argue that the people of California had failed to make the right decision, and with adduced proof from their previous votes against illegal immigrants and gay marriage, should no longer be able to vote on ballot measures.

      In East Germany, Erich Honecker once stated that the government had lost confidence in the people, and that they would have to regain the government's trust. There may come a time when the government loses confidence in the American people. As the King of England once lost confidence in his subjects. 

      Against that day, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government. 

      That is what freedom means. Government is either a slave of the citizenry or its master. In a free nation, government is a slave. In a slave nation, it is a master. 


      Shabbat Shalom,


      Cody





     




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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Jul  3 12:13:45 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:13:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"
Message-ID: <855590370907031013s2722d190j980c56b2d3305a03@mail.gmail.com>

This is most of a note that I just wrote in response to something Pat had
written me about her husband, Of Blessed Memory, and a dream he had of his
father.  Since it finally burst out of me....I thought I would share it
here, too....

  * Sighhhh...THAT is some story....wow....I am so choked with emotion, I
can barely express my thoughts (and coming from someone who never 'shuts up'
that's a pretty amazing thing).  I have been having a very, very difficult
time, this erev Shabbat, because Shabbat will bring with it, the 25th
Yartzeit (Commemoration of date of death) of my father, Of Blessed Memory.
No, the date didn't surprise me, but I had been pushing it down inside me,
at least until I went to Shul tonight.  It wasn't until reading your note
about your husband (Of Blessed Memory) and his father that it ALL came
rushing out of me....

     It is difficult looking back and wondering what dad would think of me
now.  Almost my entire adult life was spent without him, fully, almost half
the time I've been alive.  He was such a gentle man - never having hit
either my brother (who deserved a beating, at least daily..) or myself.  His
life revolved around his children and his amazing love for my mom, OBM.

   I neither learned to be as gentle as he, or to be involved in a
rrelationship as loving as his and my mom's were.  You kind of wonder at a
certain point - 'what DID I learn from him?'  My children will never, ever,
describe me as 'gentle' after I'm long gone.  "Intense,' maybe - but never,
gentle.  And no one will ever describe loving me the way my mom and father
loved each other; ever.  No one will ever love me as much as I've loved
them, the way my parents loved each other, without even thinking about it

    The last 25 years have been a heck of a winding path for me, sort of
like walking up the Snake Path at Masada...at mid-day, with the sun beating
down on you, when you're out of water, your blisters ache, and you begin
"weaving" a bit at all of those corners.....and I've wondered what would dad
be thinking....would he be proud of me?  What would his relationships to
Ayala & Kyra have been like (my mom, as many of you know, was extremely
close with the girls)?

    What would he have thought of my multiple careers, and their
vicissitudes?  Would he have laughed when I told about the manuscript I'm
working on, as others have?  What would have been his advice in my personal
life?

    Questions I'll always wonder about, but will never, ever have an answer
to.  My last touch of my father was kissing his forehead, after the FDNY
paramedics had given up trying to resuscitate him.  " One, last cold kiss.."
in the lyrics of a great Mountain song from my youth.

    He had a very tough life, and suffered greatly - although, quietly;
internalizing the suffering.  I, on the other hand, haven't suffered nearly
as much, but have never been quiet about it (or anything else, for that
matter....), at all.

    May he know how much I've loved him....how much I miss him...how much he
meant to me...and how I've tried to be like him, but have never been able
to, no matter how hard I've tried.
*                          *     Hanoch*
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 14:09:58 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:09:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Rick Warren does it, Again
Message-ID: <252862.23150.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Had to get one more in. ?Thought some of us may know people who would need to read this.
Cody
Rick Warren does it, again
Posted: July 03, 2009
1:00 am Eastern

??2009?While millions of other Americans will be celebrating Independence Day weekend, Rick Warren, often called "America's Pastor," will be serving as the keynote speaker for a Saudi-backed Muslim group that promotes a radical strain of Wahhabi Islam in about 80 percent of U.S. mosques.
I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of Rick Warren's bad judgments.
This time Warren will be schmoozing with the Islamic Society of North America, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood ? just as are al-Qaida, Hamas and most other Muslim terrorist organizations.
ISNA puts on a fa?ade of moderation, yet, according to terrorism expert Steven Emerson, it "convenes annual conferences where Islamist militants have been given a platform to incite violence and promote hatred."
After Hamas leader Mousa Marzook was arrested in 1997, ISNA raised money for his defense. He was eventually deported.ISNA condemned the U.S. government's seizure of the financial assets of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad after Sept. 11.
Brigitte Gabriel combats politically correct notions about the "religion of peace" in "They Must be Stopped: Why We Must Defeat Radical Islam and How we Can Do It"
"I think ISNA has been an umbrella, also a promoter of groups that have been involved in terrorism," explains Emerson. "I am not going to accuse the ISNA of being directly involved in terrorism. I will say ISNA has sponsored extremists, racists, people who call for?jihadagainst the United States."
I could go on with many more details about ISNA. Suffice it to say it is no friend of Christianity and no friend of America.So what is Rick Warren doing speaking at the group's national conference?
I don't know what Warren's agenda is. He would probably say he doesn't have one. But I can tell you the effect of his appearance ? it is designed to disinfect and rehabilitate a group that is dangerous and subversive to U.S. national security.
But it should surprise no one, at this point, that Rick Warren will be there. One of the first times I ever wrote about Rick Warren was?in 2006 when he took an equally misguided trip to Syria to meet with dictator Bashar Assad and praise him for his pleasant treatment of Christians.?
Syria was then and remains today one of the world's leading state sponsors of Islamic terrorism. Almost every terrorist group in the world maintains offices there.?
Nevertheless, Rick Warren said, while in Syria, that the country "does not allow extremism of any kind."
Less than a week after Warren's absurd proclamations in Syria,?a Christian leader in Lebanon, former President Pierre Gemayel, was assassinated in the streets of Beirut. Everyone in Lebanon knows who killed him ? the Syrian government.
As I wrote at the time, "it is imperative that Christians ? and especially Christian leaders ? have discernment about evil in our world. And true, unadulterated evil is what you have running Syria today. The government led by Bashar Assad, who met with Rick Warren last week, is anti-American, anti-freedom, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish and pro-terrorist.
"Rick Warren should know this. Yet, he has placed himself in a position of apologizing and excusing the government in Damascus, one of the most evil on the face of the earth.(Column continues below)
?

"It is not an exaggeration to say that government got cover last week as a result of Warren's shameful public relations on its behalf. I won't go so far to say there was a direct cause-and-effect relationship between Warren's embrace of Assad and the assassination of Gemayel yesterday, but it is both a coincidence of striking proportions as well as an illustration of the true character of Damascus' totalitarian police-state regime."
In 2007, Rick Warren was one of 100 or so "evangelical leaders" who signed a document begging forgiveness from Muslims for all the evil deeds perpetrated against them by Christians.
Rick Warren loves to apologize for things he didn't do, for things other people did that weren't wrong, even for things that occurred hundreds of years before he was born ? such as apologizing to Muslims worldwide for atrocities committed against their ancestors during the Crusades.
In 2007, he also apologized for American "excesses in the war on terrorism."
And he has apologized for the church because it hasn't done enough about the spread of AIDS and problems like global warming.
Yet, I must observe that despite his predilection for apologies, he has a great deal of trouble owning up to his own personal mistakes.
Once again, just like his trip to Syria, serving as the keynote speaker to the Islamic Society of North America is a very, very bad personal mistake ? one that demonstrates a complete lack of spiritual discernment.



      
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 14:22:46 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Rick Warren does it, Again
Message-ID: <604016.41675.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This was written by Joseph Farah.
Cody


      
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 16:51:03 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Rick Warren does it, Again
Message-ID: <263266.93595.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Great post Cody.? The Bible study group I use to belong to decided to replace reading Torah with Rick Warren's? forty days of whatever.? It doesn't seem to bother them at all that he is and has been a member of the CFR as is most of the "christian" movie stars.? When will we wake up to what is going on?? He is?no friend of anyone that truely loves HaShem and Israel!? Try telling that to your regular "christian" friend and you will be stoned.? 
?
Thanks for the post.
Margie

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, Cody <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Cody <oneillcody at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Rick Warren does it, Again
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 2:09 PM






Had to get one more in. ?Thought some of us may know people who would need to read this.


Cody


Rick Warren does it, again


Posted: July 03, 2009
1:00 am Eastern

??2009?


While millions of other Americans will be celebrating Independence Day weekend, Rick Warren, often called "America's Pastor," will be serving as the keynote speaker for a Saudi-backed Muslim group that promotes a radical strain of Wahhabi Islam in about 80 percent of U.S. mosques.


I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of Rick Warren's bad judgments.


This time Warren will be schmoozing with the Islamic Society of North America, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood ? just as are al-Qaida, Hamas and most other Muslim terrorist organizations.


ISNA puts on a fa?ade of moderation, yet, according to terrorism expert Steven Emerson, it "convenes annual conferences where Islamist militants have been given a platform to incite violence and promote hatred."


After Hamas leader Mousa Marzook was arrested in 1997, ISNA raised money for his defense. He was eventually deported.
ISNA condemned the U.S. government's seizure of the financial assets of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad after Sept. 11.


Brigitte Gabriel combats politically correct notions about the "religion of peace" in "They Must be Stopped: Why We Must Defeat Radical Islam and How we Can Do It"


"I think ISNA has been an umbrella, also a promoter of groups that have been involved in terrorism," explains Emerson. "I am not going to accuse the ISNA of being directly involved in terrorism. I will say ISNA has sponsored extremists, racists, people who call for?jihadagainst the United States."


I could go on with many more details about ISNA. Suffice it to say it is no friend of Christianity and no friend of America.
So what is Rick Warren doing speaking at the group's national conference?


I don't know what Warren's agenda is. He would probably say he doesn't have one. But I can tell you the effect of his appearance ? it is designed to disinfect and rehabilitate a group that is dangerous and subversive to U.S. national security.


But it should surprise no one, at this point, that Rick Warren will be there. One of the first times I ever wrote about Rick Warren was?in 2006 when he took an equally misguided trip to Syria to meet with dictator Bashar Assad and praise him for his pleasant treatment of Christians.?


Syria was then and remains today one of the world's leading state sponsors of Islamic terrorism. Almost every terrorist group in the world maintains offices there.?


Nevertheless, Rick Warren said, while in Syria, that the country "does not allow extremism of any kind."


Less than a week after Warren's absurd proclamations in Syria,?a Christian leader in Lebanon, former President Pierre Gemayel, was assassinated in the streets of Beirut. Everyone in Lebanon knows who killed him ? the Syrian government.


As I wrote at the time, "it is imperative that Christians ? and especially Christian leaders ? have discernment about evil in our world. And true, unadulterated evil is what you have running Syria today. The government led by Bashar Assad, who met with Rick Warren last week, is anti-American, anti-freedom, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish and pro-terrorist.


"Rick Warren should know this. Yet, he has placed himself in a position of apologizing and excusing the government in Damascus, one of the most evil on the face of the earth.
(Column continues below)







?






"It is not an exaggeration to say that government got cover last week as a result of Warren's shameful public relations on its behalf. I won't go so far to say there was a direct cause-and-effect relationship between Warren's embrace of Assad and the assassination of Gemayel yesterday, but it is both a coincidence of striking proportions as well as an illustration of the true character of Damascus' totalitarian police-state regime."


In 2007, Rick Warren was one of 100 or so "evangelical leaders" who signed a document begging forgiveness from Muslims for all the evil deeds perpetrated against them by Christians.


Rick Warren loves to apologize for things he didn't do, for things other people did that weren't wrong, even for things that occurred hundreds of years before he was born ? such as apologizing to Muslims worldwide for atrocities committed against their ancestors during the Crusades.


In 2007, he also apologized for American "excesses in the war on terrorism."


And he has apologized for the church because it hasn't done enough about the spread of AIDS and problems like global warming.


Yet, I must observe that despite his predilection for apologies, he has a great deal of trouble owning up to his own personal mistakes.


Once again, just like his trip to Syria, serving as the keynote speaker to the Islamic Society of North America is a very, very bad personal mistake ? one that demonstrates a complete lack of spiritual discernment.



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 17:30:16 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"
Message-ID: <964206.47094.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hanoch,
I just pray that you will know that you can be sure he would be very proud of you and you are probably a lot more gentle than you think.(just an observation)?? ?
???
?May he know how much I've loved him....how much I miss him...how much he meant to me...and how I've tried to be like him, but have never been able to, no matter how hard I've tried.
?
He knows, trust me.
?
Shabbat Shalom,
Margie and JoJo

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 12:13 PM



This is most of a note that I just wrote in response to something Pat had written me about her husband, Of Blessed Memory, and a dream he had of his father.? Since it finally burst out of me....I thought I would share it here, too....
?
?? Sighhhh...THAT is some story....wow....I am so choked with emotion, I can barely express my thoughts (and coming from someone who never 'shuts up' that's a pretty amazing thing).? I have been having a very, very difficult time, this erev Shabbat, because Shabbat will bring with it, the 25th Yartzeit (Commemoration of date of death) of my father, Of Blessed Memory.? No, the date didn't surprise me, but I had been pushing it down inside me, at least until I went to Shul tonight.? It wasn't until reading your note about your husband (Of Blessed Memory) and his father that it ALL came rushing out of me....
?
???? It is difficult looking back and wondering what dad would think of me now.? Almost my entire adult life was spent without him, fully, almost half the time I've been alive.? He was such a gentle man - never having hit either my brother (who deserved a beating, at least daily..) or myself.? His life revolved around his children and his amazing love for my mom, OBM.? 
?
?? I neither learned to be as gentle as he, or to be involved in a rrelationship as loving as his and my mom's were.? You kind of wonder at a certain point - 'what DID I learn from him?'? My children will never, ever, describe me as 'gentle' after I'm long gone.? "Intense,' maybe - but never, gentle.? And no one will ever describe loving me the way my mom and father loved each other; ever.? No one will ever love me as much as I've loved them, the way my parents loved each other, without even thinking about it
?
??? The last 25 years have been a heck of a winding path for me, sort of like walking up the Snake Path at Masada...at mid-day, with the sun beating down on you, when you're out of water, your blisters ache, and you begin "weaving" a bit at all of those corners.....and I've wondered what would dad be thinking....would he be proud of me?? What would his relationships to Ayala & Kyra have been like (my mom, as many of you know, was extremely close with the girls)?? 
?
??? What would he have thought of my multiple careers, and their? vicissitudes?? Would he have laughed when I told about the manuscript I'm working on, as others have?? What would have been his advice in my personal life?
?
??? Questions I'll always wonder about, but will never, ever have an answer to.? My last touch of my father was kissing his forehead, after the FDNY paramedics had given up trying to resuscitate him.? " One, last cold kiss.." in the lyrics of a great Mountain song from my youth.? 
?
??? He had a very tough life, and suffered greatly - although, quietly; internalizing the suffering.? I, on the other hand, haven't suffered nearly as much, but have never been quiet about it (or anything else, for that matter....), at all.
?
??? May he know how much I've loved him....how much I miss him...how much he meant to me...and how I've tried to be like him, but have never been able to, no matter how hard I've tried.
?????????????????????????????? Hanoch
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  4 06:36:55 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:36:55 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"
Message-ID: <SNT108-DS11F2275458091EBE44E268C82D0@phx.gbl>

What a moving account Hanoch, it made me think deeply about things.  I often wonder the same things - is my Dad proud, and if he is WHY?  I have caused them (my mother and father - all the family)  so much pain. How CAN they be proud when they are so giving and loving without ever asking of me anything in return but just to be happy? And even in that I think I fail. I have never had children of my own, so it is hard for me to conceive such love, but I know HaShem loves us in a like manner, and as I read your words Hanoch, I realized that your father was proud of you for just being you.  You have a unique role in this life, which is different from anyone else's role, and in your own way, each and everyday, you are such an important part of our unfolding history.  So much so that people who have never met you (me!) are inspired to pray for you each day.  I love your passion.

Thank you for being here Hanoch and providing us with such a rich source of learning each day. Your father is inside you and lives on in you because you are such an example to all of us with your amazing zeal for faith. I can imagine he is bursting with pride!

May your return home be full of richness and blessings, and may we all soon follow!

Love, Catherine
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From cormary at mts.net  Sat Jul  4 07:52:52 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:52:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-DS11F2275458091EBE44E268C82D0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-DS11F2275458091EBE44E268C82D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A4F50A4.6050307@mts.net>

Amen to what you are saying in such meaningful words Catherine. Hanoch, 
there is something exceptional in you.

Cornie



Catherine Cashmore wrote:
> What a moving account Hanoch, it made me think deeply about things.  I 
> often wonder the same things - is my Dad proud, and if he is WHY?  I 
> have caused them (my mother and father - all the family)  so much 
> pain. How CAN they be proud when they are so giving and loving without 
> ever asking of me anything in return but just to be happy? And even in 
> that I think I fail. I have never had children of my own, so it is 
> hard for me to conceive such love, but I know HaShem loves us in a 
> like manner, and as I read your words Hanoch, I realized that your 
> father was proud of you for just being you.  You have a unique role in 
> this life, which is different from anyone else's role, and in your own 
> way, each and everyday, you are such an important part of our 
> unfolding history.  So much so that people who have never met you 
> (me!) are inspired to pray for you each day.  I love your passion.
>  
> Thank you for being here Hanoch and providing us with such a rich 
> source of learning each day. Your father is inside you and lives on in 
> you because you are such an example to all of us with your amazing 
> zeal for faith. I can imagine he is bursting with pride!
>  
> May your return home be full of richness and blessings, and may we all 
> soon follow!
>  
> Love, Catherine
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.3/2216 - Release Date: 07/03/09 05:53:00
>
>   

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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Sat Jul  4 10:38:14 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:38:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00bf01c9fcbd$71f63870$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l
 

  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


  Shalom all,
   
  Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
   
  "It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
  True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
   
  This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
   
  This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
   
  Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
   
  I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
   
  Web

   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
  From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom"


  FYI....
              Hanoch

  The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom 
  By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved.  
       
       
   Over the last few decades starting here in the West and spreading out around the world there has grown what some call a new "religious" movement called Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide obviously comes from the name Noah, the man famous for building the Ark. According to the Bible, only Noah and his sons survived the ancient flood, therefore all humanity is called by his name, thus we are all "children of Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is equally applicable to Jews and non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the traditional Jewish term for all humanity. The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in Judaism that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on the other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder, not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal (which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these principles and values. 
  These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological imprisonments of one religion or another. 
  Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides. 
  Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can be followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused upon these universal rights and principles for all humanity. 
  Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins. Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling, therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a terrible mistake. 
  Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom, responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings. It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
  True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny. 
  Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the Ten Commandments. 
  The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian. Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable. 
  Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom. These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk. 
  Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human. The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted, although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the occasion. 
  The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again. 
  The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we stand and divided we fall. 
  The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded, sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and cultural differences. 
  In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you the Ten Commandments. 
  May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all. 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sat Jul  4 12:30:56 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 13:30:56 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c9fcbd$71f63870$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl>
	<00bf01c9fcbd$71f63870$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <0a1001c9fccd$32187a50$96496ef0$@com>

>From Isa. 56:


[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH,
speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let
the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose
the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and
a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting
name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve
him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps
the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer
for all people.

 

Shabbat Shalom,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it
is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem
chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d
gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no
need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved,
which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them.
Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions
or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any
resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human
being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be
kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom
HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be
blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral,
righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one
express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah
in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking
in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 


  _____  


Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal
Freedom"

FYI....

            Hanoch

 

The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom 

By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All
rights reserved. 


  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 


  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 


  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 

Over the last few decades starting here in the West and spreading out around
the world there has grown what some call a new "religious" movement called
Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide obviously comes from the name
Noah, the man famous for building the Ark. According to the Bible, only Noah
and his sons survived the ancient flood, therefore all humanity is called by
his name, thus we are all "children of Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or
Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is equally applicable to Jews and
non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the traditional Jewish term for all
humanity. The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in
Judaism that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on
the other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a
universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the
Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder,
not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal
(which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in
balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable
societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these
principles and values. 
These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown
and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door
of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert
Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to
better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of
these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity
and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the
Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and
became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a
path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological
imprisonments of one religion or another. 
Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based
upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United
States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to
the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas
Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with
these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their
earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides. 
Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression
of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America
herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or
path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish
people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the
ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of
Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness." What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can be
followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused upon
these universal rights and principles for all humanity. 
Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also
tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological
beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many
aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins.
Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in
their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling,
therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which
they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a
terrible mistake. 
Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom,
responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings.
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or
ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any
resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human
being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all
nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race
of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe
ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine
Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single
common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come
from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny. 
Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and
conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the
universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the
children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should
understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these
United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all
humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive
by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the
Ten Commandments. 
The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian.
Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian
beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many
Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal
path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or
arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a
new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts
are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism
by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon
Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern
Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and
vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable. 
Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today
the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself
neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this
conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the
threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push
and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom.
These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion
and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in
the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk. 
Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human.
The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted,
although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have
failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the
behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the
occasion. 
The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide
universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral
obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to
become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot
allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon
which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular
social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made
the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again. 
The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the
peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a
message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to
throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals
that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the
entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world
could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and
responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we
stand and divided we fall. 
The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that
binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over
liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded,
sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American
agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and
cultural differences. 
In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just
the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of
freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and
make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message
of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you
the Ten Commandments. 

May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all. 

 


  _____  


Windows LiveT SkyDriveT: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Get it on your
BlackBerry or iPhone.
<http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009>  


  _____  


_______________________________________________

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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Sat Jul  4 19:31:49 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY107-W15E76F55A59109DE81D5A4C52F0@phx.gbl><00bf01c9fcbd$71f63870$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
	<0a1001c9fccd$32187a50$96496ef0$@com>
Message-ID: <009c01c9fd07$fcb6da10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


  From Isa. 56:


  [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.


  Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????



  [4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
  [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


  [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;


  Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??



  [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

   

  I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 



  Shabbat Shalom,

  Patty

   

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
  Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

   

  Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

       If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

      Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l

   

   

    Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

     

    Shalom all,
     
    Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
     
    "It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
    True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
     
    This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
     
    This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
     
    Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
     
    I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
     
    Web

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:37:32 -0400
    From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom"

    FYI....

                Hanoch

     

    The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & Universal Freedom 

    By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. 


         

         

         

    Over the last few decades starting here in the West and spreading out around the world there has grown what some call a new "religious" movement called Noahides. For the record, the term Noahide obviously comes from the name Noah, the man famous for building the Ark. According to the Bible, only Noah and his sons survived the ancient flood, therefore all humanity is called by his name, thus we are all "children of Noah," Benei Noah in Hebrew or Noahides. Mind you, this term obviously is equally applicable to Jews and non-Jews alike. Essentially Noahide is the traditional Jewish term for all humanity. The modern Noahide group bases its views on the ideas described in Judaism that while Jews are commanded by G-d to follow Judaism, non-Jews on the other hand are obligated not to follow any one religion but rather a universal code of behavior. This code stipulates belief and honor of the Supreme Being, the standards of moral behavior, not to steal, not to murder, not to act with sexual immorality, not to eat the flesh of a living animal (which some interpret metaphorically to mean to live in harmony and in balance with nature) and last but certainly not least, to establish stable societies and sane governments based upon law and the upholding of these principles and values. 
    These principles in Judaism, however universal, remained a mostly unknown and uninteresting point of theology until recently, when the revolving door of religion began to swing both ways. In their religious zeal to convert Jews many Christian evangelists began a study of Judaism and theology to better understand their targets and how to better reach them. As many of these missionaries continued their studies into the roots of Christianity and the foundations of Judaism, many of them were persuaded to embrace the Jewish message instead of getting Jews to give it up. Some converted and became Jews however the majority of the others saw that Judaism proclaimed a path for all non-Jews that liberated them from the divisive theological imprisonments of one religion or another. 
    Judaism's message to the world was one of liberty and justice for all, based upon the same principles upon which the Founding Fathers of the United States created this nation. The relationship of these Jewish principles to the Founding Fathers is by no means a coincidence. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many of their peers apparently were already familiar with these ancient "Jewish" ideas about liberty and freedom for in many of their earlier writings some went so far as to call themselves Noahides. 
    Noahides and Noahidism is therefore no modern spiritual/religious expression of any kind. It is as old as the Bible and is as American as is America herself. True "Noahidism" is not a theology, a religion, a way of life or path that is connected culturally or socially with Judaism or the Jewish people. True Noahidism is a universal code and philosophy that proclaims the ability and rights of the individual. As the U.S. Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What greater truth can be proclaimed? What greater ideals can be followed? Noahidism was and therefore still is supposed to be focused upon these universal rights and principles for all humanity. 
    Theology however can be a funny thing and many people who embrace it also tend to crave rituals and cultural expressions to express their theological beliefs. Unfortunately, many modern Noahides have sought to embrace many aspects of Jewish practice and identity that are foreign to their origins. Many having left Christianity sought to replace the Christian religion in their lives with something equally religious and culturally fulfilling, therefore they are in the process of creating a pseudo-Jewish religion which they feel is the exclusive definition of Noahidism. This in my opinion is a terrible mistake. 
    Noahidism is a universal code, a message of liberty and freedom, responsibility and justice, morality and righteousness for all human beings. It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
    True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being. This message transcends all cultures, all religions, all borders, all nations, all ethnicities and all creeds. Our race is the human race, a race of beings however different from one another, but united in that we believe ourselves, and this means all of us, to be equally created in the Divine Image. That which makes us special is that which unites us all with a single common destiny. We are all human beings sharing our planet together. We come from one source and are heading towards a singular destiny. 
    Humanity is humanity. We cannot subdivide and live by different and conflicting standards. The common denominator for all humanity is the universal code; this is what Judaism has called the "seven laws of the children of Noah." Rather than investigate these theologically, we should understand them as they were meant to be, as the Founding Fathers of these United States did, as moral code that serves as a common denominator for all humanity. I would hope and pray that this code should be not found offensive by anyone; after all it comes to us from the same source that brought us the Ten Commandments. 
    The message of Noahidism is not the exclusive domain of the ex-Christian. Noahidism should never be degraded to become an attack upon Christian beliefs and good hearted, good fearing Christian people. Just because many Christians might have left the fold and have adopted this more universal path does not give them the right to act with a sense of superiority or arrogance towards their own past. Those who want to turn Noahidism into a new religion are doing nothing more than creating a new cult. Their efforts are misguided and they are actually arousing anti-Semitism towards Judaism by those who interpret this growing cult as some form of Jewish attack upon Christianity. This of course is false; nonetheless many so-called modern Noahides embrace their new faith and attack their old one with the venom and vigor of any newly converted zealot. Such behavior is deplorable. 
    Today peoples of all traditional religious beliefs are under attack. Today the attack comes from a world secular culture that while declaring itself neutral in all matters of religion is actually hostile to it. If this conflict were only in the realm of theology, we might not consider the threat so grave. Yet, the assault is not so much on theology, the real push and shove is in the arenas of morality, righteousness, fairness and freedom. These areas are under terrible assault and peoples of traditional religion and moral values, regardless of our backgrounds and theologies are all in the same boat together, under attack and in danger of being sunk. 
    Noahidism was and is supposed to embrace all that is good about being human. The United States of America was founded upon these principles. Granted, although Founding Fathers dreamed of a vision that many Americans have failed to live up to, nonetheless the vision is still great, even though the behavior of those who claimed to pursue the vision did not rise to the occasion. 
    The United States was founded upon the great principles of Noahide universalism. The message was that of freedom and liberty, of moral obligations and righteous responsibility. We cannot allow this message to become lost because many of its bearers did not embrace its truth. We cannot allow the reinterpretation of history to destroy the moral message upon which the United States was founded. We cannot allow present day secular social/political agendas to strip away everything moral and right that made the United States the great country it once was, and can still be again. 
    The United States in spite of everything it has done wrong and all the peoples, both indigenous and foreign that it has hurt, still proclaims a message and a freedom unparalleled in all of human history. Rather than to throw out the good with the bad, we should all embrace the universal ideals that the United States was founded upon and export these ideals to the entire world. The world does not have to become American, but the world could use a strong dosage of morals, discipline, righteousness and responsibility. We can all benefit by learning the lesson that united we stand and divided we fall. 
    The universal message of Noahidism is the great common denominator that binds together all of humanity. We do not need to bicker or quarrel over liberalism or conservatism as long as good hearted, righteous minded, sincere and concerned individuals are in the forefront promoting agendas of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is not just an American agenda; this is a human agenda and it transcends all national borders and cultural differences. 
    In my opinion, the Fourth of July, therefore should not be viewed as just the day of American Independence, but rather the day of the proclamation of freedom and justice for all. This is an ideal we can all aspire towards and make every effort to live up to. This is the true Noahide message, a message of universal spirituality, brought to you by the same people who brought you the Ten Commandments. 

    May G-d bless us America; may G-d bless us all. 

     


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From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:20:22 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"]
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From webhulon at msn.com  Sat Jul  4 20:26:59 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &
	UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <009c01c9fd07$fcb6da10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
References: <855590370907021237w747fdc5dud245d24ae68b488d@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <BAY107-W31C32C7DC93CC4F03D317FC52A0@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
 
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  
 
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
 
 
Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
 
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
 
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
 
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
 
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400






 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
 
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??
 
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
 
I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 
 
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
 
 


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 
Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 



_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. 
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From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:31:08 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'An outpost carved in bedrock']
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul  4 20:36:54 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:36:54 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Rick Warren does it, Again]
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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 23:00:10 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Message-ID: <629024.37655.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Very good points Web!
Being a parent of 3 children has helped me understand the Ways of Hashem. Each one of my children is equally special in their individual way. I love my oldest child with every fiber of my being. I also love my middle and youngest with every fiber of my being. My oldest child does not get cheated out of one fiber of my love because of his two siblings and vice versa. My middle and youngest children are not stealing any peice of love from their brother.?The specialness of each child is never diminished by each other.
?
On this day that we Americans celebrate our independece and our freedom,? my prayer is for all mankind to have true freedom. Torah = True Freedom.
?
Susie

--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 6:26 PM




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Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
?
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.? But we are back.? 
?
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
?
?
Deut 22:1-3
1????????? "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2????????? "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3????????? "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
?
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah ?s share diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
?
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
?
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH , our true King, will be established here on this earth.
?
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.
Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



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?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16? so shall we be separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
?
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5??Keep my covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.?? (Not Gentiles) ??
?
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
?
I believe he is referring to ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.?? IN other words------convert,? go all the way, not half way. 
?
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
?
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
?

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.? 

???? If every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.?? Would there ?????

??? Acts 15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l

?

?


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

?
Shalom?all,
?
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
?
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.? 
?
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
?
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 
?
I pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer beware.
?
Web

?





Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how. 
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  5 00:47:06 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 00:47:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,
I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW and
opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's comments out.
 Please add them if I did.

Kim
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  5 00:58:07 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 00:58:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before 
	Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>

Hanoch,
This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I found...
torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning the
Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from her
yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue list.
 I'll confirm the link and send it to you.

Kim

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate
> to it on such a special level....
>                Shabbat Shalom - *Hanoch*
> **
> Friday, 03 July 2009
> *The River's Song
> *Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,
>
> I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
> Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
> is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
> the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
> Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
> language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
> white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
> that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt.
> As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
> our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
> plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
> King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
> One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths.
> Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
> reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
> Oklahoma
>
>  Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/>,
> Lazer's friends<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/>,
> Music <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/>, Prayer and
> Meditation<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>
> | Permalink<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>
> | TrackBack (0)<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trackback>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 01:35:09 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 01:35:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before	Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>

Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn't come up for me.  You are up
late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!

 

We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee
connection to Hebrew roots.  Remember I told you how he used to talk about
the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the Jewish
faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time actually
living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.  It seemed that he had even done some
research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book that he had
found with some of us.but this was back in the 90's and I am a little foggy
on it.  

So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie's email
address?

 

Love you,

Mom

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Hanoch,

 

This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I
found...torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning
the Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from
her yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue
list.  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.

 

Kim

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate to
it on such a special level....

               Shabbat Shalom - Hanoch

 

Friday, 03 July 2009
The River's Song
Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,


I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt. 
As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths. 
Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
Oklahoma

Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/> , Lazer's friends
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/> , Music
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/> , Prayer and Meditation
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>  |
Permalink
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>  |
TrackBack (0)
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trac
kback>  


_______________________________________________

 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 02:51:31 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &	UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>

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From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &
	UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400
Size: 31553
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090705/61bc9965/attachment.eml 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  5 03:06:45 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 03:06:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before 
	Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>
	<F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>

Mom,
You can email Joe and Debbie through Hatikva.  Debbie monitors it herself.
 I also have her number.

I found the link to the site.  Let's just say it has some different
perspectives...I'll let you and others check it out for yourselves.  He
mentions the Cherokee, but he fellowships with the Apaches.  Here's the
link: http://www.torah-voice.org/index.htm


Love you,

Kim



On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

>  Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn?t come up for me.  You are
> up late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!
>
>
>
> *We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee
> connection to Hebrew roots*.  Remember I told you how he *used to talk
> about the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the
> Jewish faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time
> actually living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.*  It seemed that he had
> even done some research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book
> that he had found with some of us?but this was back in the 90?s and I am a
> little foggy on it.
>
> So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie?s
> email address?
>
>
>
> Love you,
>
> Mom
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
> Shabbat
>
>
>
> Hanoch,
>
>
>
> This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I found...
> torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning the
> Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from her
> yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue list.
>  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.
>
>
>
> Kim
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate
> to it on such a special level....
>
>                Shabbat Shalom - *Hanoch*
>
>
>
> Friday, 03 July 2009
> *The River's Song**
> *Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,
>
>
> I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
> Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
> is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
> the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
> Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
> language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
> white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
> that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt.
> As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
> our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
> plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
> King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
> One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths.
> Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
> reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
> Oklahoma
>
> Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/>,
> Lazer's friends<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/>,
> Music <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/>, Prayer and
> Meditation<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>|
> Permalink<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>| TrackBack
> (0)<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trackback>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 03:12:51 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:12:51 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW]
Message-ID: <4A506083.1090901@westnet.com.au>

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From: kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 00:47:06 -0500
Size: 4305
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090705/9566a465/attachment.eml 

From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Jul  5 03:14:07 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 03:14:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before Shabbat
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com><F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
	<1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97E83839BB3E4A9393DEC16AE6B4EA7A@davesbook>

Yes Kim and Betty.....ya'll are up way to late...lol  The second link worked kim.  I also am checking out what you posted on the SSW site.......GREAT WORK
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: kim alvarado 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before Shabbat


  Mom,


  You can email Joe and Debbie through Hatikva.  Debbie monitors it herself.  I also have her number.  


  I found the link to the site.  Let's just say it has some different perspectives...I'll let you and others check it out for yourselves.  He mentions the Cherokee, but he fellowships with the Apaches.  Here's the link: http://www.torah-voice.org/index.htm




  Love you,


  Kim





  On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

    Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn?t come up for me.  You are up late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!



    We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee connection to Hebrew roots.  Remember I told you how he used to talk about the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the Jewish faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time actually living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.  It seemed that he had even done some research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book that he had found with some of us?but this was back in the 90?s and I am a little foggy on it.  

    So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie?s email address?



    Love you,

    Mom



    Elisheva/Betty




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
    Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before Shabbat



    Hanoch,



    This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I found...torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning the Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from her yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue list.  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.



    Kim

    On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

    Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate to it on such a special level....

                   Shabbat Shalom - Hanoch



    Friday, 03 July 2009
    The River's Song
    Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,


    I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt. 
    As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge, King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths. 
    Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from Oklahoma

    Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration, Lazer's friends, Music, Prayer and Meditation | Permalink | TrackBack (0) 


    _______________________________________________




    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 03:25:15 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 03:25:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <97E83839BB3E4A9393DEC16AE6B4EA7A@davesbook>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com><F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
	<1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<97E83839BB3E4A9393DEC16AE6B4EA7A@davesbook>
Message-ID: <6B0CFE80FDC24618A07AEF422ADABD7B@bettylaptop>

Ok, you are right.up much too late.especially since I have to get up in a
few hours to work.just can't help myself.I will just have to make myself
shut down after I type this and wait until tommow.(oops it is tomorrow).

 

Laila tov,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:14 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Yes Kim and Betty.....ya'll are up way to late...lol  The second link worked
kim.  I also am checking out what you posted on the SSW site.......GREAT
WORK

dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From: kim <mailto:kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>  alvarado 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:06 AM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Mom, 

 

You can email Joe and Debbie through Hatikva.  Debbie monitors it herself.
I also have her number.  

 

I found the link to the site.  Let's just say it has some different
perspectives...I'll let you and others check it out for yourselves.  He
mentions the Cherokee, but he fellowships with the Apaches.  Here's the
link: http://www.torah-voice.org/index.htm

 

 

Love you,

 

Kim

 

 

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn't come up for me.  You are up
late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!

 

We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee
connection to Hebrew roots.  Remember I told you how he used to talk about
the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the Jewish
faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time actually
living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.  It seemed that he had even done some
research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book that he had
found with some of us.but this was back in the 90's and I am a little foggy
on it.  

So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie's email
address?

 

Love you,

Mom

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Hanoch,

 

This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I
found...torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning
the Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from
her yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue
list.  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.

 

Kim

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate to
it on such a special level....

               Shabbat Shalom - Hanoch

 

Friday, 03 July 2009
The River's Song
Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,


I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt. 
As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths. 
Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
Oklahoma

Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/> , Lazer's friends
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/> , Music
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/> , Prayer and Meditation
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>  |
Permalink
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>  |
TrackBack (0)
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trac
kback>  


_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  5 05:21:52 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 10:21:52 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Truths my Father Taught me"]
Message-ID: <SNT108-W460E2849EF71FBAB2168F5C82A0@phx.gbl>


Joe that was beautiful - you express things so very well.  You have a true gift.  We are so SO so blessed to have such a wonderful group of people here grafted together in the love of HaShem.  Thank you. x
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 06:37:16 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:37:16 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Copper Snake
Message-ID: <4A50906C.6030308@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 07:01:27 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:01:27 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Od Yishama
Message-ID: <4A509617.9090604@westnet.com.au>

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From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Jul  5 09:52:52 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 10:52:52 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &
	UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W44B9A38FE9469AE0F15920C52A0@phx.gbl>


Shalom Joe,

In answer to your question "How can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?," I will ask what kind of conformation is needed?  How can one confirm that the Torah was given to Moshe on Mt. Sinai?  How can one confirm that there is really such a place as Eretz Yisrael?  You go there.  You experience it. We have read of the return of Yosef and now we are experiencing these words. I need no further confirmation, although I have been given many more in experiences.  Our beliefs are not based on emotion or feeling but what we read in the Tanach and what we have experienced.  We are Yisrael because we live as Yisrael, no membership card required.

 

If someone DID need confirmation we could refer them to a number of Orthodox Yehudim who have spent time with us and have all reached the conclusion that we are who we say we are.  Recently we had an Orthodox brother from Gush Etzion visit us and tell us that he was envious of our community and wished that he had this kind of community in Yisrael!  I won't publish their names in a forum because they will catch flack from those around them that are more comfortable with us being Noakhides than Yosef.  This is easy to understand because Jewish leadership knows how to deal with Noakhides but, as in Egypt, they don't know how to deal with Yosef because they haven't yet recognized who we actually are.

 

We are not demanding anything from anyone, but the Tanakh plainly tells us that WHEN THEY HAVE REPENTED, Yosef will return to their inheritance.  We already support Judah in the land in many physical ways, but ultimately they will need more than our money and prayers and best wishes.  They will need Yosef. When they do, we will be prepared.

 

I didn't answer this post or the original post to toot our horn.  I answered because I think folks need to be aware of what they are getting into when they embrace the Noakhide way.  No Shabbat, no festivals, no Torah.  Take off your tzitzit and eat your pork chop, but be righteous.

 

Finally I invite you, or anyone else, Jew, Gentile, Yosefite, or Noakhide, that might have doubts as to whether we are on the right path, to come and spend some time with us.  Come and taste the fruit of this tree and reserve judgment until you have experienced it yourself.

Witness our lives.  Talk with our children.  Then your doubts will subside and you will understand.... or not.

 

May you too prosper in your walk,

Web





Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400





Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
 
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  
 
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
 
 
Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
 
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
 
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
 
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
 
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.
Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400






 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
 
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??
 
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
 
I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 
 
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
 
 


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 
Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 





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From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Jul  5 12:34:51 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:34:51 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &
	UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W3553A3F04E6B73DCEF3C04C52A0@phx.gbl>



Shalom Joe,
 
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  
 
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:
 
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.
 
The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.
 
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:
 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.
 
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."
 
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?
 
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 
 
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  
 
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.
 
Chizqu v? imtzu
 
Web
 


 


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400




Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
 
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  
 
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
 
 
Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
 
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
 
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
 
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
 
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.
Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400






 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
 
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??
 
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
 
I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 
 
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
 
 


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 
Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 





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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Sun Jul  5 13:15:40 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:15:40 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
References: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au>
	<BAY107-W3553A3F04E6B73DCEF3C04C52A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1C571CA2CD394A1FB47F04D9C1E10CBC@BatYah>

Omein V'omein!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Web Hulon 
  To: roots of faith 
  Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


  Shalom Joe,

   

  One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  

   

  Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:

   

  It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
  True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 

   

  Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.

   

  The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.

   

  To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:

   

  Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.

   

  Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."

   

  If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?

   

  This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 

   

  And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  

   

  There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.

   

  Chizqu v? imtzu

   

  Web

   

   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
  From: jid at westnet.com.au
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

  Shalom Web,

  thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
  This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

  Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
  Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
  Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

  With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
  He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
  I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

  There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
  These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
  Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
  Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
  Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
  They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
  Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
  Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

  This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
  The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

  Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
  How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
  You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
  I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
  Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

  This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
  I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
  To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
  True conversion starts in the heart.
  Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
  This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
  A partner should never demand his or her rights.
  We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

  To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
  This in turn necessitates commitment.
  There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
  This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

  I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
  To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
  My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
  I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
  I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
  If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
  The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
  I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

  Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
  Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
  This will be the catalyst for unification.

  In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.








  --Forwarded Message Attachment--
  From: webhulon at msn.com
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
  Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400


  Shalom all,

  Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?



  Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  



  We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.





  Deut 22:1-3

  1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.

  2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.

  3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.



  The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.



  The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.



  It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.



  If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.


  Web

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
  Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Patty 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
    Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


    From Isa. 56:


    [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.


    Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????



    [4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
    [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


    [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;


    Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??



    [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



    I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 



    Shabbat Shalom,

    Patty





    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
    Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



    Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

         If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

        Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l





      Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



      Shalom all,
       
      Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
       
      "It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
      True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
       
      This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
       
      This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
       
      Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
       
      I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
       
      Web

       


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Sun Jul  5 13:53:29 2009
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:53:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rick Warren
References: <4A4E85D8.F0D02.1097@iris2.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <739ED699C2234B659D532F526F2A4493@SEWVAC011>

I've been reading the various posts on Rick Warren, and 
am considering, that in becoming "big"; he may simply be
forgetting his roots.  Something, that if any of us, are not
careful, we may also do.  Think of King David, when the
scripture states, at the time of the year, that Kings went
off to war, Kind David, was upon a rooftop, looking upon
a woman, who he lusted for, and then consummated that 
lust.  Consider that Mr. Warren, may simply benefit from
some prayer that reminds him of his roots.  I think all of us
are prone to forget, that there is a GOODNESS in the L-rd
that ONLY the L-rd possesses ---- and as people give
honor to other people.... there is that verse in Isaiah about
My Glory will I not give to another.  Perhaps the L-rd
allows us to walk alone for a spell, in order that a few years
down the road we may reflect on what "fools" we have 
been in order that we have a deepened measure of respect
in our heart for the L-rd Alone.

I am the first to admit, I may be missing the point; and am
partly looking at my own life, and how there have been times
when I thought I was "smarter than I really was :)" and how
it definitely bit me like a snake, and I suffered the poison
of sin in my system.

On a note from the Psalms, I ponder again the Great 
Intellect of Hashem, who calls ALL the Stars by Name.

Every single star in our expanding universe, He KNOWS
by Name...

And how many stars do I know by name?  Let's just say,
zero.  So my prayer today, is that Rick Warren realize how
many stars he knows by name, and that he be free to ponder 
that, and be taught by that.  It really is quite humbling the more
one ponders it.  The capacity of intellect to Call Every Star by
Name --- and then to compare that to one's own intellect....

Definitely some humor one can have in relation to one's own
self...

Stephen / Texas

 


From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 16:48:10 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:48:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]
	"The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <629024.37655.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <629024.37655.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AC129789FB14425B80C310CF62E1BFB4@bettylaptop>

Dear Web, Joe and all,

 

We have quite an impassioned discussion going on here, and I think it is
great.it reminds me of Zech 3:15, "then they who feared HaShem spoke to one
another." I must say that even before this discussion began a few days ago,
I had been deep in thought about some of these very things that have been
brought up, especially with the connection of HaShem's children from all
over the world opening acknowledging their roots and connection to the
Hebrew faith.there is something definitely going on.no doubt about it!  The
"Awakening" and the "Regathering" spoken of in Deut 30 is taking place all
around us and within us!  Baruch HaShem!  

 

Last evening I stayed up until the wee hours of the morning reading all
these posts in this thread and each struck a chord in my heart.there is no
doubt that the thoughts and concepts shared here were neither lightly nor
hastily spoken, or that the different perspectives presented were from
hearts that were both genuine and pure.

 

Obviously, we are all familiar with the concept of the "Jewish" people (I am
using that term to encompass the whole family.all the tribes) as being
HaShem's chosen people, his segualh or treasure.and with the passages in Gen
12: 2-3 AND Gen 18:18 (double 'chai'!) about HaShem's promise to make of
Abraham's seed, a great nation, one through which all the nations of the
earth will be blessed!  I have read how in the Hebrew, the word used for
blessing can also be translated as "grafted," which I believe goes along
with the verses in Isa. 56 that Patty quoted.

 

I too believe that the Torah is for all and eventually all will come to
Torah.when the whole earth will be full of the Knowledge of HaShem!  In the
meantime, what do we, whose hearts are not only turned to Torah but
literally 'grabbed' and irresistibly pulled towards HaShem and Torah.what do
we do?

 

B'ahavah v'shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 


Very good points Web!

Being a parent of 3 children has helped me understand the Ways of Hashem.
Each one of my children is equally special in their individual way. I love
my oldest child with every fiber of my being. I also love my middle and
youngest with every fiber of my being. My oldest child does not get cheated
out of one fiber of my love because of his two siblings and vice versa. My
middle and youngest children are not stealing any peice of love from their
brother. The specialness of each child is never diminished by each other.

 

On this day that we Americans celebrate our independece and our freedom,  my
prayer is for all mankind to have true freedom. Torah = True Freedom.

 

Susie

--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"
To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 6:26 PM

Shalom all,

Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called
"gentiles" yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the
House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community
goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as
Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if
we convert to Judaism?

 

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a
different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the
Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older
brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as
we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  

 

We aren't here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in
Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take
responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.

 

 

Deut 22:1-3

1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray,
and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your
brother.

2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him,
then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you
until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.

3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with
his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and
you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

 

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were
unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is
that we can be given a share without Judah 's share diminishing at all.  As
a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the
return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of
teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.

 

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage
and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal
opinion is that it may be for those who aren't from Joseph, but for a
Josephite it is a cop out.

 

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation
considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of
the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets,
this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so
that the Kingdom of YHWH , our true King, will be established here on this
earth.

 

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and
all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original
context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya'acov and along with Judah
and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is
no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to
put into accomplishing our return.


Web

  _____  

From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty
<http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ptyler at aac-usa.com>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
<http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

>From Isa. 56:


[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH,
speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let
the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people
that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or
what does he mean?????

 

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose
the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and
a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting
name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve
him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps
the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me
above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??

 

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer
for all people.

 

I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall
sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males
be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as
one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the
way, not half way. 

 

Shabbat Shalom,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it
is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem
chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d
gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no
need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved,
which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them.
Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions
or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any
resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human
being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be
kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom
HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be
blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral,
righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one
express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah
in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking
in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 

  _____  

 

  _____  

Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR. See how.
<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutor
ial_QuickAdd_062009>  


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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 17:00:13 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:00:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
Message-ID: <64762BD0B2E847968FF9B3343FEC930C@bettylaptop>

Dear Friends,

His name is Cody Smith and he is in his early twenties, a delightful young
man richly talented with a gift of the love of music in his soul and.he is
in love with one of my granddaughters.he has been a light in her life and
has brought her so much joy!  Both his parents have cancer.and now there is
a possibility that he may have cancer as well!  

 

Just to give you an idea of what a special person he is, he and my
granddaughter, Jordyn, composed a song, lyrics and music, for their mothers
for Mother's Day.  His mom cried when she heard it.  They played it for my
daughter, Beth, when I was over for Mother's Day.and I don't have to tell
you that emotions were flowing.this was before we found out about his
health.

 

He is set to go in for tests this coming Tuesday.please pray for him!  My
prayer is that HaShem will grant him a refuah shleimah.

 

Thank you,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 18:00:09 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:00:09 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <1C571CA2CD394A1FB47F04D9C1E10CBC@BatYah>
References: <4A505B83.8030306@westnet.com.au><BAY107-W3553A3F04E6B73DCEF3C04C52A0@phx.gbl>
	<1C571CA2CD394A1FB47F04D9C1E10CBC@BatYah>
Message-ID: <070520092300.23865.4A513075000A60CE00005D3922230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Web,

You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.

This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.

I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.

My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.

Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  

I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;

1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.

2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.

3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?

I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  

Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.

My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
Omein V'omein!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,
 
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  
 
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:
 
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.
 
The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.
 
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:
 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.
 
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."
 
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?
 
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 
 
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  
 
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.
 
Chizqu v? imtzu
 
Web
 

 


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400


Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  

We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.


Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 

Shabbat Shalom,
Patty


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 






Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.


Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 



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From dsdj7 at aol.com  Sun Jul  5 18:00:07 2009
From: dsdj7 at aol.com (dsdj7 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:00:07 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <629024.37655.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <629024.37655.qm@web112407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CBCBDB79AD8C0C-ED8-6D19@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 11:00 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"







Very good points Web!

Being a parent of 3 children has helped me understand the Ways of Hashem. Each one of my children is equally special in their individual way. I love my oldest child with every fiber of my being. I also love my middle and youngest with every fiber of my being. My oldest child does not get cheated out of one fiber of my love because of his two siblings and vice versa. My middle and youngest children are not stealing any peice of love from their brother.?The specialness of each child is never diminished by each other.

?

On this day that we Americans celebrate our independece and our freedom,? my prayer is for all mankind to have true freedom. Torah = True Freedom.

?

Susie

--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:



From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 6:26 PM



Shalom all,


Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become=2
0Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?



?



Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.? But we are back.? 



?



We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.



?



?



Deut 22:1-3



1????????? "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.



2????????? "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.



3????????? "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you20shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.



?



The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah ?s share diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.



?



The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.



?



It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH , our true King, will be established here on this earth.



?



If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, 
we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.



Web
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400


?


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"





>From Isa. 56:



[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.




Exo 33:16? so shall we be separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????



?



[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.




[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold=2
0of my covenant;




Exo 19:5??Keep my covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.?? (Not Gentiles) ??



?



[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



?



I believe he is referring to ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.?? IN other words------convert,? go all the way, not half way. 



?



Shabbat Shalom,



Patty



?



?





From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"





?




Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.? 





???? If every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as
 Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.?? Would there ?????





??? Acts 15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l





?





?






Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"





?




Shalom?all,
?
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
?
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.? 
?
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
?
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 
?
I pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discourag
ed from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer beware.
?
Web

?









Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how. 


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________










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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 18:07:45 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:07:45 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
In-Reply-To: <64762BD0B2E847968FF9B3343FEC930C@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <070520092307.2602.4A51324000098B4700000A2A22230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I'm prayin' Elisheva.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Betty K Givin" <bkgivin at verizon.net>: -------------- 


Dear Friends,
His name is Cody Smith and he is in his early twenties, a delightful young man richly talented with a gift of the love of music in his soul and?he is in love with one of my granddaughters?he has been a light in her life and has brought her so much joy!  Both his parents have cancer?and now there is a possibility that he may have cancer as well!  
 
Just to give you an idea of what a special person he is, he and my granddaughter, Jordyn, composed a song, lyrics and music, for their mothers for Mother?s Day.  His mom cried when she heard it.  They played it for my daughter, Beth, when I was over for Mother?s Day?and I don?t have to tell you that emotions were flowing?this was before we found out about his health.
 
He is set to go in for tests this coming Tuesday?please pray for him!  My prayer is that HaShem will grant him a refuah shleimah?
 
Thank you,
 
Elisheva/Betty
 
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From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jul  5 18:35:26 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
In-Reply-To: <070520092307.2602.4A51324000098B4700000A2A22230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <070520092307.2602.4A51324000098B4700000A2A22230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <971195.29145.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear Betty:

What a heavy burden on one family. Please be assured I will be prayimg for Cody amd his parents and all who are imvolved in their lives. May Hashem in His mercy grant them a complete healing and resoration to a full life.\\\\\

Shalom amd kind regards,

Heln, Avigail, Sara



________________________________
From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 7:07:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST


I'm prayin' Elisheva.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Betty K Givin" <bkgivin at verizon.net>: -------------- 


Dear Friends,
His name is Cody Smith and he is in his early twenties, a delightful young man richly talented with a gift of the love of music in his soul and?he is in love with one of my granddaughters?he has been a light in her life and has brought her so much joy!? Both his parents have cancer?and now there is a possibility that he may have cancer as well!? 
?
Just to give you an idea of what a special person he is, he and my granddaughter, Jordyn, composed a song, lyrics and music, for their mothers for Mother?s Day.? His mom cried when she heard it.? They played it for my daughter, Beth, when I was over for Mother?s Day?and I don?t have to tell you that emotions were flowing?this was before we found out about his health.
?
He is set to go in for tests this coming Tuesday?please pray for him!? My prayer is that HaShem will grant him a refuah shleimah?
?
Thank you,
?
Elisheva/Betty
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From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 18:50:50 2009
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <590586.1174.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

John,
Excellent. You have spoken so eloquently what I have been thinking as I read the emails.? I don't know why the need to categorize people. I know what G-d has called me to do and try to do it. What he asks of others is their business. If someone asks me what my denomination is, I say I am a Stranger at the Gate, Sibunemoi? like Cornelius in the Christian bible.? (Something from Joe Good.)
Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM




Web,
?
You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.
?
This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.? Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).? What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.? Something that requires my attention every day.
?
I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.? I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.? Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.? My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.? He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.
?
My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.? Everything else is commentary.
?
Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.? You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.? Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.? The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.? 
?
I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.? Here are the reasons;
?
1.??HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.? The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.? He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.? In doing?so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.
?
2.? It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.? The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to?their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.
?
3.? The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.? The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.? But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.? So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.? It was something that could be assimilated amongst the? nations as Judah eventually was.? Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?
?
I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.? I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.? We are answering the same call.? There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.? We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.? The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.? To quote a famous Rabbi, get the?beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.? 
?
Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.? Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.? Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.
?
Oh yeah, one more thing.? It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.? But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.? People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.? Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.? It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.? Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all?mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.
?
My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?
-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
#yiv1819958687 .hmmessage P {
PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv1819958687 {
FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}


 
Omein V'omein!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,
 ?
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.??  
? 
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?? However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.? According to the original article: 
? 
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."? 
? 
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.? Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.? These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s. 
? 
The whole concept?seems to be?an exercise in contradiction.? If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.? Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.? If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default. 
? 
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia: 
? 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?. 
? 
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death." 
? 
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended? 
? 
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.? This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.? Who is a B?nei Noakh?? Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?? Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?? Why is it that the only? B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did? this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?? What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?? Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?? (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)? What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew?  
? 
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and?everyone.? I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?? Or is this too offensive for me to ask?? Oops.? Too late.?  
? 
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.? Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom. 
? 
Chizqu v? imtzu 
? 
Web ?

?


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.? However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was? for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.??????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400



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Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
?
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.? But we are back.? 
?
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
?
?
Deut 22:1-3
1????????? "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2????????? "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3????????? "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
?
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
?
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
?
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
?
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.
Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



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?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16? so shall we be separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
?
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5??Keep my covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.?? (Not Gentiles) ??
?
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
?
I believe he is referring to ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.?? IN other words------convert,? go all the way, not half way. 
?
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
?
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
?

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.? 

???? If every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.?? Would there ?????

??? Acts 15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l

?

?


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

?
Shalom?all,
?
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
?
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.? 
?
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
?
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 
?
I pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer beware.
?
Web

?





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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 18:56:27 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:56:27 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <590586.1174.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <070520092356.8639.4A513DA800064290000021BF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I like that Betty, A Stranger at the Gate.  A very comforting portrait.  Thank you.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Betty Eddy <betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

John,
Excellent. You have spoken so eloquently what I have been thinking as I read the emails.  I don't know why the need to categorize people. I know what G-d has called me to do and try to do it. What he asks of others is their business. If someone asks me what my denomination is, I say I am a Stranger at the Gate, Sibunemoi? like Cornelius in the Christian bible.  (Something from Joe Good.)

Betty Eddy







--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM


Web,

You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.

This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.

I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.

My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.

Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  

I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;

1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.

2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.

3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?

I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  

Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.

My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
Omein V'omein!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,

One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  

Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:

It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 

Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.

The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.

To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."

If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?

This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 

And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  

There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.

Chizqu v? imtzu

Web
 

 


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400


Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  

We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.


Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 

Shabbat Shalom,
Patty


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 






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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 19:08:48 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <188285.21310.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM




Web,
?
You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.
?
This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.? Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).? What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.? Something that requires my attention every day.
?
I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.? I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.? Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.? My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.? He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.
?
My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.? Everything else is commentary.
?
Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.? You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.? Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.? The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.? 
?
I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.? Here are the reasons;
?
1.??HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.? The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.? He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.? In doing?so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.
?
2.? It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.? The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to?their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.
?
3.? The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.? The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.? But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.? So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.? It was something that could be assimilated amongst the? nations as Judah eventually was.? Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?
?
I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.? I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.? We are answering the same call.? There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.? We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.? The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.? To quote a famous Rabbi, get the?beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.? 
?
Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.? Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.? Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.
?
Oh yeah, one more thing.? It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.? But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.? People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.? Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.? It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.? Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all?mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.
?
My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?
-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
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Omein V'omein!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,
?
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?? 
?
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?? However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.? According to the original article:
?
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.? Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.? These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.
?
The whole concept?seems to be?an exercise in contradiction.? If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.? Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.? If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.
?
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:
?
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.
?
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."
?
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?
?
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.? This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.? Who is a B?nei Noakh?? Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?? Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?? Why is it that the only? B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did? this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?? What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?? Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?? (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)? What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 
?
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and?everyone.? I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?? Or is this too offensive for me to ask?? Oops.? Too late.? 
?
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.? Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.
?
Chizqu v? imtzu
?
Web?

?


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.? However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was? for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.??????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400



#yiv2005631510 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
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Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
?
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.? But we are back.? 
?
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
?
?
Deut 22:1-3
1????????? "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2????????? "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3????????? "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
?
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
?
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
?
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
?
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.
Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



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?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16? so shall we be separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
?
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5??Keep my covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.?? (Not Gentiles) ??
?
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
?
I believe he is referring to ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.?? IN other words------convert,? go all the way, not half way. 
?
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
?
?


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
?

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.? 

???? If every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.?? Would there ?????

??? Acts 15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l

?

?


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

?
Shalom?all,
?
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
?
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.? 
?
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
?
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 
?
I pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer beware.
?
Web

?





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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 20:02:07 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:02:07 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue]
	"The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <188285.21310.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <188285.21310.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D298FA23B134B509DFAA71848C6B919@bettylaptop>

Absolutely, Glenn!   And it was jam packed and put so eloquently in a nutshell! Thanks, Eliron.  

My little bitty two cent email ended with a rhetorical question?? I too believe that the Torah is for all and eventually all will come to Torah?when the whole earth will be full of the Knowledge of HaShem!  In the meantime, what do we, whose hearts are not only turned to Torah but literally ?grabbed? and irresistibly pulled towards HaShem and Torah?what do we do?

And I think you answered it?Eliron. I believe that we each need to ?bloom where we are planted,? and if we happen to be uprooted, as so many of us have, by various and sundry reasons, then we need to surrender ourselves to our Creator and allow Him to lovingly ?transplant? us, and begin blooming there.  We may not all be in the same ?garden?, but I believe that all of us who have given our hearts and our lives over to HaShem, can flourish and effect the lives of those around us.

 

Web, If I may, I would like to copy and paste a quote from you that I just now read on SWW because I believe it so fits the whole ?heart? of this discussion?

 ?Find Yisrael and love them face to face.? 

Wow, what a powerful thought?that is just what we need to do?and your group is a living witness of that.   If I might add?I believe that for some of us, we can in addition ?Find Judah and love them face to Face.?  That is where I find myself in addition to reaching out to Yisrael in every way that I can.

In so doing, I believe that they will recognize us as their lost brothers and sisters? whether of Joseph or any of the other tribes that have in most Jewish minds disappeared off the face of the earth!  My personal conviction is that I am of the lost tribes?Every time I read Deut 30 about the ?Reawakening? and the ?Regathering? my heart quickens and I am stopped dead in my tracks?Believe it or not, Nitzavim turned out to be the Torah Portion the week Roger and I converted?I did not pick the date?our rabbi did?and I have often wondered how really ?random? that was.?  

 

But as I have said, conversion to Judaism is not something that I advocate for anyone?it is up to each person?and this path is not the path for all.  And if turns out not my roots do not actually go back to one of the tribes, then that is okay too?because I will not have lived my life in vain?for I truly believe that in living Torah lifestyle that I have effected the lives of those around me. 

 

We each have our roles?let us live in them?In the end, HaShem can sort us all out?in the meantime, let us keep loving and ?speaking to one another??

 

My love to you all, 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 7:09 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]

 


I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM

Web,

 

You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.

 

This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.

 

I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.

 

My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.

 

Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  

 

I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;

 

1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.

 

2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.

 

3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?

 

I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  

 

Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.

 

Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.

 

My two cents.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 

Omein V'omein!

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Web <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=webhulon at msn.com>  Hulon 

To: roots of faith <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM

Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]

 

Shalom Joe,

 

One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  

 

Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:

 

It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 

 

Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.

 

The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.

 

To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:

 

Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.

 

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."

 

If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?

 

This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 

 

And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  

 

There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.

 

Chizqu v? imtzu

 

Web

 

 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400

Shalom all,

Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?

 

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  

 

We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.

 

 

Deut 22:1-3

1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.

2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.

3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

 

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.

 

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.

 

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.

 

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.


Web

  _____  

From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ptyler at aac-usa.com>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 

>From Isa. 56:


[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????

 

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??

 

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

 

I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 

 

Shabbat Shalom,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  

     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????

    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l

 

 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

 

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 

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Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how. <http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009> 

  _____  

Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009>  

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 20:35:44 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:35:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before	Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>
	<F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
	<1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03E8666A98474A2B9EBF90D8779F12F7@bettylaptop>

Very interesting indeed, Kim, and definitely some different perspectives,
but something to think about.  In one of the articles he mentions his late
father as Dell Griffin.  I am wondering if this is the Dell Griffin that
some of us have had contact with over the years. I will contact either
Debbie or Joe and see what additional info they might have.

Love you too girl!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Mom,

 

You can email Joe and Debbie through Hatikva.  Debbie monitors it herself.
I also have her number.  

 

I found the link to the site.  Let's just say it has some different
perspectives...I'll let you and others check it out for yourselves.  He
mentions the Cherokee, but he fellowships with the Apaches.  Here's the
link: http://www.torah-voice.org/index.htm

 

 

Love you,

 

Kim

 

 

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn't come up for me.  You are up
late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!

 

We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee
connection to Hebrew roots.  Remember I told you how he used to talk about
the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the Jewish
faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time actually
living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.  It seemed that he had even done some
research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book that he had
found with some of us.but this was back in the 90's and I am a little foggy
on it.  

So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie's email
address?

 

Love you,

Mom

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
Shabbat

 

Hanoch,

 

This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I
found...torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning
the Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from
her yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue
list.  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.

 

Kim

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate to
it on such a special level....

               Shabbat Shalom - Hanoch

 

Friday, 03 July 2009
The River's Song
Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,


I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt. 
As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths. 
Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
Oklahoma

Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/> , Lazer's friends
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/> , Music
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/> , Prayer and Meditation
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>  |
Permalink
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>  |
TrackBack (0)
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trac
kback>  


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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 20:38:37 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:38:37 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July
	&	UniversalFreedom"]]
Message-ID: <4A51559D.2030507@westnet.com.au>

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An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,	the 4th of July &
	UniversalFreedom"]
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:34:51 -0400
Size: 76494
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090706/299d1d49/attachment.eml 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 20:38:55 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:38:55 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue]"The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <3D298FA23B134B509DFAA71848C6B919@bettylaptop>
References: <188285.21310.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<3D298FA23B134B509DFAA71848C6B919@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <070620090138.18027.4A5155930008596E0000466B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Elisheva,

Thank you.  But your, "little bitty" email speaks volumes.  Especially the statement, "In the meantime,what do we do...?"  Isn't that the whole point?  Since the time of Adam until now that has been the question, this is the meantime!

I believe that is why HaShem tarries, He's waiting on his children to learn to love each other "face to face".  And no, that doesn't mean to love everybody all the time, it means for Joseph and Judah to recognize each other once again and fall on each others necks in tears.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Betty K Givin" <bkgivin at verizon.net>: -------------- 


Absolutely, Glenn!   And it was jam packed and put so eloquently in a nutshell! Thanks, Eliron.  
My little bitty two cent email ended with a rhetorical question?? I too believe that the Torah is for all and eventually all will come to Torah?when the whole earth will be full of the Knowledge of HaShem!  In the meantime, what do we, whose hearts are not only turned to Torah but literally ?grabbed? and irresistibly pulled towards HaShem and Torah?what do we do?
And I think you answered it?Eliron. I believe that we each need to ?bloom where we are planted,? and if we happen to be uprooted, as so many of us have, by various and sundry reasons, then we need to surrender ourselves to our Creator and allow Him to lovingly ?transplant? us, and begin blooming there.  We may not all be in the same ?garden?, but I believe that all of us who have given our hearts and our lives over to HaShem, can flourish and effect the lives of those around us.
 
Web, If I may, I would like to copy and paste a quote from you that I just now read on SWW because I believe it so fits the whole ?heart? of this discussion?
 ?Find Yisrael and love them face to face.? 
Wow, what a powerful thought?that is just what we need to do?and your group is a living witness of that.   If I might add?I believe that for some of us, we can in addition ?Find Judah and love them face to Face.?  That is where I find myself in addition to reaching out to Yisrael in every way that I can.
In so doing, I believe that they will recognize us as their lost brothers and sisters? whether of Joseph or any of the other tribes that have in most Jewish minds disappeared off the face of the earth!  My personal conviction is that I am of the lost tribes?Every time I read Deut 30 about the ?Reawakening? and the ?Regathering? my heart quickens and I am stopped dead in my tracks?Believe it or not, Nitzavim turned out to be the Torah Portion the week Roger and I converted?I did not pick the date?our rabbi did?and I have often wondered how really ?random? that was.?  
 
But as I have said, conversion to Judaism is not something that I advocate for anyone?it is up to each person?and this path is not the path for all.  And if turns out not my roots do not actually go back to one of the tribes, then that is okay too?because I will not have lived my life in vain?for I truly believe that in living Torah lifestyle that I have effected the lives of those around me. 
 
We each have our roles?let us live in them?In the end, HaShem can sort us all out?in the meantime, let us keep loving and ?speaking to one another??
 
My love to you all, 
 
Elisheva/Betty
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 7:09 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
 
I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM
Web,
 
You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.
 
This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.
 
I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.
 
My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.
 
Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  
 
I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;
 
1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.
 
2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.
 
3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?
 
I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  
 
Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.
 
Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.
 
My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
Omein V'omein!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
 
Shalom Joe,
 
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  
 
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:
 
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.
 
The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.
 
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:
 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.
 
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."
 
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?
 
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 
 
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  
 
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.
 
Chizqu v? imtzu
 
Web


 



Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400
Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?
 
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  
 
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.
 
 
Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.
 
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.
 
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.
 
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.
 
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.

Web



From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 
>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????
 
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??
 
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
 
I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 
 
Shabbat Shalom,
Patty
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 
Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l
 
 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 
Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 



 



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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 20:40:35 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:40:35 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <188285.21310.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <070620090140.20797.4A5156070008E4C10000513D22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

It depends on the exchange rate.  ;-{)}

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from W Glenn Chatterton <chattertonw at bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM


Web,

You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.

This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.

I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.

My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.

Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  

I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;

1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.

2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.

3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?

I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  

Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.

My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
Omein V'omein!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,

One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  

Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article:

It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 

Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s.

The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default.

To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?.

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death."

If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended?

This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 

And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  

There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom.

Chizqu v? imtzu

Web
 

 


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400


Shalom all,
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism?

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  

We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken.


Deut 22:1-3
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother.
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him.
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself.

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out.

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth.

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return.

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean?????

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ??

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 

Shabbat Shalom,
Patty


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

 






Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.


Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 



_______________________________________________


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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 20:40:53 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:40:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDB0C908007D4F1E955BEE5911999086@bettylaptop>

Awesome, Kim.as Joe said, " a true labor of love!"  Thanks for compiling all
of them, and for opening the discussion.  I am just still trying to find my
way around the SWW, and did finally make my way there and reviewed some of
all the posts.it was quite impressive.now if we can work together to get
some of this implemented, we have a good start!

Love,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW

 

Hello all,

 

I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW and
opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's comments out.
Please add them if I did.

 

Kim

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 20:43:38 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:43:38 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue]	"The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <4A5156CA.9050009@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul  5 20:48:55 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:48:55 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST]
Message-ID: <4A515807.50103@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Betty K Givin" <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:00:13 -0500
Size: 8521
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  5 21:30:40 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:30:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070620090230.13176.4A5161C900006AD20000337822243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Kim,

I looked and looked and I can't find the Living the Shema page on SWW.  I found the Prayer group and joined it though.  I told ya I was gonna need help finding the Shema page, how does one get there?

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Hello all,


I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW and opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's comments out.  Please add them if I did.


Kim
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Sun Jul  5 21:47:02 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:47:02 -0000
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
Message-ID: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>

 

Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.

 

 

 

I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to
print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 21:58:19 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:58:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
In-Reply-To: <070620090230.13176.4A5161C900006AD20000337822243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
	<070620090230.13176.4A5161C900006AD20000337822243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <5EE45F0867C142978363AB9615CA59ED@bettylaptop>

Hey Eliron, go to the Main Page and look under FORUM.it took me quite a bit
of time finding it too.I found the Prayer Group too along the way, so that
was a good thing!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW

 

Hey Kim,

 

I looked and looked and I can't find the Living the Shema page on SWW.  I
found the Prayer group and joined it though.  I told ya I was gonna need
help finding the Shema page, how does one get there?

 

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from kim alvarado
<kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>: -------------- 

Hello all, 

 

I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW and
opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's comments out.
Please add them if I did.

 

Kim

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  5 22:23:52 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 23:23:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
In-Reply-To: <64762BD0B2E847968FF9B3343FEC930C@bettylaptop>
References: <64762BD0B2E847968FF9B3343FEC930C@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS203F90963E9D007AD9AE10BA2B0@phx.gbl>

Dear Betty,

I want to add my voice with all our brothers and sisters on this List to say I am praying for Cody.  May he receive a most amazing and wonderful report of a clean bill of health when his tests come back.  And may HaShem grant His Perfect Peace upon Cody, his family, and Jordyn as they await the results.

Love,

Avigail/Pat


From: Betty K Givin 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST


Dear Friends,

His name is Cody Smith and he is in his early twenties, a delightful young man richly talented with a gift of the love of music in his soul and.he is in love with one of my granddaughters.he has been a light in her life and has brought her so much joy!  Both his parents have cancer.and now there is a possibility that he may have cancer as well!  

 

Just to give you an idea of what a special person he is, he and my granddaughter, Jordyn, composed a song, lyrics and music, for their mothers for Mother's Day.  His mom cried when she heard it.  They played it for my daughter, Beth, when I was over for Mother's Day.and I don't have to tell you that emotions were flowing.this was before we found out about his health.

 

He is set to go in for tests this coming Tuesday.please pray for him!  My prayer is that HaShem will grant him a refuah shleimah.

 

Thank you,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From rossknichols at me.com  Sun Jul  5 22:30:17 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:30:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
In-Reply-To: <5EE45F0867C142978363AB9615CA59ED@bettylaptop>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
	<070620090230.13176.4A5161C900006AD20000337822243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<5EE45F0867C142978363AB9615CA59ED@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <303BB93A-9C6A-448D-8C27-DAF17BBD8C73@me.com>

I featured the discussion so that it is easy to find. This is an  
excellent example of how to use the forum. With email all of the great  
comments get lost but the forum keeps topics together.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

> Hey Eliron, go to the Main Page and look under FORUM?it took me quit 
> e a bit of time finding it too?I found the Prayer Group too along th 
> e way, so that was a good thing!
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- 
> bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:31 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
>
> Hey Kim,
>
> I looked and looked and I can't find the Living the Shema page on  
> SWW.  I found the Prayer group and joined it though.  I told ya I  
> was gonna need help finding the Shema page, how does one get there?
>
> --
> Eliron/John.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com 
> >: --------------
>
> Hello all,
>
> I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW  
> and opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's  
> comments out.  Please add them if I did.
>
> Kim
> _______________________________________________
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 23:02:36 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS203F90963E9D007AD9AE10BA2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <64762BD0B2E847968FF9B3343FEC930C@bettylaptop>
	<COL119-DS203F90963E9D007AD9AE10BA2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9E15309160A5426690412E33FD32732E@bettylaptop>

Thank you Pat, John, Margie, Joe and Ross and all for your prayers for Cody
and his family and also for Jordyn. When I told Jordyn that I was going to
ask my friends to pray, she smiled and gave me a hug and told me, thank-you.
I will keep you posted

My love, 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST

 

Dear Betty,

 

I want to add my voice with all our brothers and sisters on this List to say
I am praying for Cody.  May he receive a most amazing and wonderful report
of a clean bill of health when his tests come back.  And may HaShem grant
His Perfect Peace upon Cody, his family, and Jordyn as they await the
results.

 

Love,

 

Avigail/Pat

 

From: Betty K <mailto:bkgivin at verizon.net>  Givin 

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:00 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST

 

Dear Friends,

His name is Cody Smith and he is in his early twenties, a delightful young
man richly talented with a gift of the love of music in his soul and.he is
in love with one of my granddaughters.he has been a light in her life and
has brought her so much joy!  Both his parents have cancer.and now there is
a possibility that he may have cancer as well!  

 

Just to give you an idea of what a special person he is, he and my
granddaughter, Jordyn, composed a song, lyrics and music, for their mothers
for Mother's Day.  His mom cried when she heard it.  They played it for my
daughter, Beth, when I was over for Mother's Day.and I don't have to tell
you that emotions were flowing.this was before we found out about his
health.

 

He is set to go in for tests this coming Tuesday.please pray for him!  My
prayer is that HaShem will grant him a refuah shleimah.

 

Thank you,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul  5 23:58:32 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:58:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
In-Reply-To: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>
References: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <E9B2A0EDE61E46A78FF91F9F36F3ACE1@bettylaptop>

Thanks Marvin.  I perused the issue and am anxious to read more.  In fact, I
bookmarked it for future reference.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:47 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article

 

 

Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.

 

 

 

I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to
print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 04:19:45 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 05:19:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before 
	Shabbat
In-Reply-To: <03E8666A98474A2B9EBF90D8779F12F7@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370907030357r37d5fb57lf6df0c58179b905a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907042258t84f4e39i5172a77ff12bd59c@mail.gmail.com>
	<F607EF1C21A2466BAC1F8CC7C39FC187@bettylaptop>
	<1c8dbb6e0907050106r54fb60bmfc14af3eb59b34a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<03E8666A98474A2B9EBF90D8779F12F7@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <855590370907060219x2696e638re3e6f3daba9293d4@mail.gmail.com>

Jerusalem Torah Voice is Dell's website;  he states it clearly.

                     * Hanoch
*
On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

>  Very interesting indeed, Kim, and definitely some different perspectives,
> but something to think about.  In one of the articles he mentions his late
> father as Dell Griffin.  I am wondering if this is the Dell Griffin that
> some of us have had contact with over the years. I will contact either
> Debbie or Joe and see what additional info they might have.
>
> Love you too girl!
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:07 AM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
> Shabbat
>
>
>
> Mom,
>
>
>
> You can email Joe and Debbie through Hatikva.  Debbie monitors it herself.
>  I also have her number.
>
>
>
> I found the link to the site.  Let's just say it has some different
> perspectives...I'll let you and others check it out for yourselves.  He
> mentions the Cherokee, but he fellowships with the Apaches.  Here's the
> link: http://www.torah-voice.org/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> Love you,
>
>
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Hey Kim, I just tried the link and it wouldn?t come up for me.  You are up
> late tonight girl!  Like mother like daughter and vice versa!
>
>
>
> *We need to get in touch with Joe Good about all this cool Cherokee
> connection to Hebrew roots*.  Remember I told you how he *used to talk
> about the similarity of many of the Cherokee beliefs and rituals as to the
> Jewish faith?  From what I remember he even spent quite of bit of time
> actually living with the Cherokee in Oklahoma.*  It seemed that he had
> even done some research (no surprise, knowing Joe, right?) and shared a book
> that he had found with some of us?but this was back in the 90?s and I am a
> little foggy on it.
>
> So how can we get in touch with him?  Does anyone have his or Debbie?s
> email address?
>
>
>
> Love you,
>
> Mom
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 12:58 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Cherokees w/Hebrew Roots/Beautiful music before
> Shabbat
>
>
>
> Hanoch,
>
>
>
> This is amazing!  I was just talking to my mom about a site I found...
> torahvoice.com, I think.  There is a lot of information concerning the
> Native Americans being part of the lost tribes.  Then I get a text from her
> yesterday telling me that there is "Cherokee stuff" on the dialogue list.
>  I'll confirm the link and send it to you.
>
>
>
> Kim
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Below is yet another special piece from Rav Lazer Brody;  I really relate
> to it on such a special level....
>
>                Shabbat Shalom - *Hanoch*
>
>
>
> Friday, 03 July 2009
> *The River's Song**
> *Osyio (Greetings - LB) Rabbi Wolf Brother,
>
>
> I was so happy to hear that our Tsa la Gi (Cherokee - LB) brothers in
> Tennessee and Texas also hold the opinion that we have Hebrew roots. So much
> is the same - I follow your teachings about personal prayer in solitude with
> the Holy One out in nature and I'm moved to tears about the Jewish Perek
> Shira song of creation. Our meditation, the fringes on our clothes, our
> language, and our clinging to the One God (in the old way, not the way the
> white missionaries did to our people) are all signs of our mutual roots. Now
> that we have DNA testing, there is no doubt.
> As a small token of appreciation for the love and respect you have honored
> our people with, I'm enclosing a film clip of Wayra, a Bolivian Indian who
> plays the native American flute like we do. To the best of my knowledge,
> King David also had such a similar flute. May you enjoy it, and may the Holy
> One bless your journeys in life with smooth and pleasant paths.
> Looking forward to the day when the lost tribes will be returned and
> reunited with mother Israel, your friend and brother, Silver Cloud from
> Oklahoma
>
> Friday, 03 July 2009 at 12:02 AM in Inspiration<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/inspiration/>,
> Lazer's friends<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/lazers_friends/>,
> Music <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/music/>, Prayer and
> Meditation<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/prayer_and_meditation/>|
> Permalink<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html>| TrackBack
> (0)<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/the-rivers-song.html#trackback>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  6 05:08:57 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:08:57 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] SPECIAL PRAYER REQUEST
Message-ID: <SNT108-W32BFBF0AC7F71E6EF16B81C82B0@phx.gbl>


Betty I am praying and praying for him.  My heart and soul goes out to him.  I trust HaShem and i know he will hear our prayers.  What an awful test this young boy is having to endure.  PLEASE PLEASE keep us informed as to how things progress. I am very concerned for him  Let us know how he gets on with his tests.  I pray it won't be bad news.  If there is anything I can do let me know.  I wish I was closer so I could offer more practical support.
All my love, Catherine
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  6 05:42:16 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:42:16 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Message-ID: <SNT108-W16D1EF3C7D882682BAA6C3C82B0@phx.gbl>


A wonderful discussion.  All I can add is to say how much love I feel for you all.  My wonderful 'family' who HaShem has guided me to.  With HaShem's blessing you are changing my life and how richly blessed I am to be able to read and join with you all knowing our hearts are as one.  Our yearning for Torah is bringing us all together.  I have so much to learn and a long way to go, but I know there is neither right or left, and how ever long it takes, I'm willing to walk the path.
ALL of you are in my prayers daily.
Much much love,  Catherine
_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul  6 11:21:56 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]
	"The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W16D1EF3C7D882682BAA6C3C82B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W16D1EF3C7D882682BAA6C3C82B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <86F11EF53754418DB606C7F71A830931@bettylaptop>

Yes, it is, isn't it?  And you, dear Catherine, are in my prayers as well!  

Much love to you too,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 5:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
UniversalFreedom"

 

A wonderful discussion.  All I can add is to say how much love I feel for
you all.  My wonderful 'family' who HaShem has guided me to.  With HaShem's
blessing you are changing my life and how richly blessed I am to be able to
read and join with you all knowing our hearts are as one.  Our yearning for
Torah is bringing us all together.  I have so much to learn and a long way
to go, but I know there is neither right or left, and how ever long it
takes, I'm willing to walk the path.

 

ALL of you are in my prayers daily.

 

Much much love,  Catherine

 

  _____  

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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  6 11:59:18 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <631176.20927.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

in YHVH's economy - priceless

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:40 PM




It depends on the exchange rate.? ;-{)}
?
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?
-------------- Original message from W Glenn Chatterton <chattertonw at bellsouth.net>: -------------- 





I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM




Web,
?
You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.
?
This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.? Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).? What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.? Something that requires my attention every day.
?
I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.? I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.? Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.? My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.? He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.
?
My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.? Everything else is commentary.
?
Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.? You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.? Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.? The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.? 
?
I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.? Here are the reasons;
?
1.??HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.? The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.? He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.? In doing?so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.
?
2.? It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.? The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to?their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.
?
3.? The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.? The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.? But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.? So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.? It was something that could be assimilated amongst the? nations as Judah eventually was.? Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?
?
I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.? I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.? We are answering the same call.? There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.? We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.? The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.? To quote a famous Rabbi, get the?beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.? 
?
Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.? Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.? Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.
?
Oh yeah, one more thing.? It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.? But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.? People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.? Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.? It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.? Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all?mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.
?
My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

?
-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
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Omein V'omein!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,
? 

One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?? 

? 

Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?? However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.? According to the original article: 

? 

It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."? 

? 

Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.? Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.? These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s. 

? 

The whole concept?seems to be?an exercise in contradiction.? If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.? Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.? If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default. 

? 

To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia: 

? 

Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?. 

? 

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death." 

? 

If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended? 

? 

This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.? This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.? Who is a B?nei Noakh?? Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?? Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?? Why is it that the only? B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did? this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?? What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?? Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?? (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)? What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 

? 

And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and?everyone.? I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?? Or is this too offensive for me to ask?? Oops.? Too late.? 

? 

There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.? Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom. 

? 

Chizqu v? imtzu 

? 

Web 
?

?


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.? However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was? for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.??????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400



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Shalom all, 

Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism? 

? 

Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.? But we are back.? 

? 

We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken. 

? 

? 

Deut 22:1-3 

1????????? "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother. 

2????????? "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him. 

3????????? "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself. 

? 

The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself. 

? 

The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out. 

? 

It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth. 

? 

If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return. 

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



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?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"



>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.


Exo 33:16? so shall we be separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean????? 

? 

[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;


Exo 19:5??Keep my covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.?? (Not Gentiles) ?? 

? 

[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 

? 

I believe he is referring to ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.?? IN other words------convert,? go all the way, not half way. 

? 

Shabbat Shalom, 

Patty 

? 

? 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

? 


Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.? 


???? If every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.?? Would there ?????


??? Acts 15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l


?


?



Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


?

Shalom?all,
?
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
?
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."?
?
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.? 
?
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
?
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 
?
I pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer beware.
?
Web

? 







Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.


Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 



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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  6 12:56:10 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:56:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
In-Reply-To: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>
References: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS564ED9728152824BC1A9CBA2B0@phx.gbl>

Marvin, this article is most valuable.  Almost 25 years ago I began studying this subject matter in depth.  It was not something I particularly cared to do, but had a very strong prompting from HaShem, so reluctantly began.  All these years later, I'm so thankful that I followed His lead.  The understanding I gained, though not pleasant (especially to me as a dedicated Christian at that time), is something I find truly invaluable.   

Like the Church Fathers who are quoted in this Mesora article, my first response to this knowledge was that the pagan practices found in Christianity were merely satanic counterfeits of the "real thing."  However, the more I studied, the more I had to accept the fact that the Hebrew Bible was a radical departure from the ideas espoused by the pagan Mystery Religions, while my own faith, Christianity, was completely recognizable in them.

Our Father, Abraham, was told by HaShem to leave Ur of the Chaldees, thus leaving behind his native country which was inundated by Mystery Religion worship.  I most sincerely believe that we too are called to leave behind the religious affiliations of our birth, and follow HaShem just like Abraham did.  We too are called to make his same radical departure from the faith into which most of us were born.

The Jewish Rabbi, upon whom Christianity was founded, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.  The problem is Mystery Religion itself, which very rapidly enveloped Christianity (actually, a better name for this Rabbi's movement than "christianity" would simply be "Torah Faith.").  This Jewish Rabbi both followed and taught only Torah Faith.  I truly believe he never crossed over into the territory of the pagan gods as we have been led to do.  He would be appalled to find himself associated with the perversions of Mystery Religion taught in his name today.  Unlike Abraham, his forefather, he never had to leave Ur of the Chaldees, because he WAS NEVER THERE..................but we are.

Thank you, Marvin,

Avigail/Pat


From: Marvin Hyde 
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 10:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article


 

Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.

 

 

 

I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html

 



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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  6 13:10:14 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:10:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS564ED9728152824BC1A9CBA2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC>
	<COL119-DS564ED9728152824BC1A9CBA2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <070620091810.8097.4A523E060007BEE500001FA122216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Amein Pat!.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Marvin, this article is most valuable.  Almost 25 years ago I began studying this subject matter in depth.  It was not something I particularly cared to do, but had a very strong prompting from HaShem, so reluctantly began.  All these years later, I'm so thankful that I followed His lead.  The understanding I gained, though not pleasant (especially to me as a dedicated Christian at that time), is something I find truly invaluable.   

Like the Church Fathers who are quoted in this Mesora article, my first response to this knowledge was that the pagan practices found in Christianity were merely satanic counterfeits of the "real thing."  However, the more I studied, the more I had to accept the fact that the Hebrew Bible was a radical departure from the ideas espoused by the pagan Mystery Religions, while my own faith, Christianity, was completely recognizable in them.

Our Father, Abraham, was told by HaShem to leave Ur of the Chaldees, thus leaving behind his native country which was inundated by Mystery Religion worship.  I most sincerely believe that we too are called to leave behind the religious affiliations of our birth, and follow HaShem just like Abraham did.  We too are called to make his same radical departure from the faith into which most of us were born.

The Jewish Rabbi, upon whom Christianity was founded, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.  The problem is Mystery Religion itself, which very rapidly enveloped Christianity (actually, a better name for this Rabbi's movement than "christianity" would simply be "Torah Faith.").  This Jewish Rabbi both followed and taught only Torah Faith.  I truly believe he never crossed over into the territory of the pagan gods as we have been led to do.  He would be appalled to find himself associated with the perversions of Mystery Religion taught in his name today.  Unlike Abraham, his forefather, he never had to leave Ur of the Chaldees, because he WAS NEVER THERE..................but we are.

Thank you, Marvin,

Avigail/Pat


From: Marvin Hyde 
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 10:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article


 
Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.
 
 
 
I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html
 



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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  6 13:10:48 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:10:48 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
In-Reply-To: <631176.20927.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <070620091810.9768.4A523E28000237080000262822216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

LOL.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from W Glenn Chatterton <chattertonw at bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

in YHVH's economy - priceless

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:40 PM


It depends on the exchange rate.  ;-{)}

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from W Glenn Chatterton <chattertonw at bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than two cents...

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM


Web,

You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on faith.

This is why I push back so hard against religions and labels.  Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do with religion at all).  What I believe has everything to do with a personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.  Something that requires my attention every day.

I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a couple of weeks ago.  I explained to him that while I have no problem with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell, it is not my way.  My primary reason is that conversion requires committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.  He was very understanding of that position and I respect that very much.

My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.  Everything else is commentary.

Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my attention.  You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.  Please allow me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly, nervous men of God.  The problem is that men seem to think that they need to protect God from the heathens.  

I have been developing a theory in my studies that concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception and that writing it down was a mistake.  Here are the reasons;

1.  HaShem instructed Moshe to write down the part that he wanted to be written down.  The rest he left open to the interpretation of His children.  He did that so His children would debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He gave them.  In doing so, they would not fall into the trap of making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence.

2.  It is the Oral Torah that gave Israel and finally Judah, it's identity.  The written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the Oral Torah belonged to Israel and was uo to their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept it.

3.  The Mishnah was not written down until after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce.  The reason it was written down was that "nervous" Rabbi's got worried that Judah would forget who they were.  But what they forgot was that it was the very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing that unified Judah.  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no longer was tied to Judah or the Land of Israel alone.  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the  nations as Judah eventually was.  Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that feel no connection to the Land today?

I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.  I don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.  We are answering the same call.  There are those of Judah who have not even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save them.  We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when Maschiach sorts it out for us.  The fact is, before that can happen, WE have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish things.  To quote a famous Rabbi, get the beams out of our own eyes before we try to take motes out of our brother's.  

Along those lines please allow me to make one more observation, Israel was not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people because they were chosen, and Judah has no monopoly on that.  Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any connection to Israel is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer His call.  Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and not by our words.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  It is true that Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.  But let us not forget that Judah's Tikkun is jealousy.  People often confuse the terms jealousy and envy.  Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy, on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you as a gift.  It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even though He gave us the right to chose.  Men, however (Judah), have no right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to all mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all men for all eternity.

My two cents.
--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

? 
Omein V'omein!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Web Hulon 
To: roots of faith 
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]


Shalom Joe,
 
One more thing. In your post you said ?it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes.?  
 
Thank you, but I did not say ?all.?  However, this yearning is my point. It is this yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.  According to the original article: 
 
It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."  
 
Noakhidism is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.  Noakhidism is not about yearning for Torah.  These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the Rabbi?s. 
 
The whole concept seems to be an exercise in contradiction.  If you read the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern judicial systems.  Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their country.  If you are a citizen of the United States you accept these laws by default. 
 
To further show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia: 
 
Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachid?. 
 
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death." 
 
If the article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that you attended? 
 
This all sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of death just because of a little Torah yearning.  This is not the first time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.  Who is a B?nei Noakh?  Who decides who is a B?nei Noakh?  Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of their local laws?  Why is it that the only  B'nei Noakh that I can find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did  this concept of B?nei Noakh originate?  What are the Scriptural proofs for this idea?  Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat?  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)  What if I do yearn for Torah and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew? 
 
And while I am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to Joe, but to anyone and everyone.  I hate the replacement theology of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that Judah replaced all of the other tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology?  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?  Oops.  Too late.  
 
There will have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we are going to see the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.  Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom. 
 
Chizqu v? imtzu 
 
Web 
 

 


Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:51:31 +1000
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"]

Shalom Web,

thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.
This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

Firstly, how can one confirm if he or she is from the lost tribes?
Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.
Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you consider the historical issues.

With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael..... but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.
He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to Australia, loves the land, the people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.  However, he or she may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.
I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under false pretense is stealing.

There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.
These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.
Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.
Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King David.
Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.
They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.
Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law, Naomi. 
Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In actuality his right of redemption was  for Naomi but extended to Ruth because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is history.

This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis on convert or perish. 
The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.
How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished business and blood on our hands.
You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.
I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.
Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit Yosef but for all humanity.

This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.
I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees right.
To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.
True conversion starts in the heart.
Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.
This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.
A partner should never demand his or her rights.
We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch or feeling.
This in turn necessitates commitment.
There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us to be involved in.
This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no strings attached.

I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.
To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.
My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.
I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up front, no strings attached.
I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is the largest and only obstacle.
If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and well, if not ,all and well.
The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.
I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach, and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.
Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.
This will be the catalyst for unification.

In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes and may you prosper in all your endeavours.                                                    

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.








--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: webhulon at msn.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400


Shalom all, 
Anyone that knows me knows that I am fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.  We are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become Jews.  We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim the House of Joseph.  Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism? 
 
Being fully convinced of who we are gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.  The Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our inheritance and heritage.  Judah, our older brother, has kept and protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through our extended exile.  But we are back.  
 
We aren?t here to steal anything, but to stand alongside our brothers in Judah and reclaim what our fathers shamefully threw away long ago.  We take responsibility for those actions and seek to repair that which was broken. 
 
 
Deut 22:1-3 
1          "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother. 
2          "And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him. 
3          "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself. 
 
The Torah has been safe in the House of Judah.  Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our part.  The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without Judah?s share diminishing at all.  As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will increase in Judah due to the return of Joseph.  Why?  Because when you have the responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely yourself. 
 
The teachings of the Noakhides prevent Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers.  It removes our responsibility.  My personal opinion is that it may be for those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out. 
 
It is understandable that Judah would mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.  But if we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that we can all go to heaven, but so that the Kingdom of YHWH, our true King, will be established here on this earth. 
 
If yours is the path of the Noakhide, without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.  But ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham, Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return. 

Web


From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"


>From Isa. 56:

[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Exo 33:16  so shall we be separated, I and thy  people from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.  So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he mean????? 
 
[4] For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;

Exo 19:5  Keep my covenant,      And you shall be a special treasure unto me above all people----------unto the childen of Israel.   (Not Gentiles) ?? 
 
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 
 
I believe he is referring to ,   Exo 12:48 & 49  And when a "stranger" shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be as one that is born in the land.   IN other words------convert,  go all the way, not half way. 
 
Shabbat Shalom, 
Patty 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"
 
Of cource there are different views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.  
     If every one, (Gentiles),  acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need for a Special people.   Would there ?????
    Acts 15:14  and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which to me  means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to them. Just my thoughts.   Dick l


Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom"

Shalom all,
 
Please notice the following statements taken from this article:
 
"It is not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 
True Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being." 
 
This means that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.  You should not be fasting on Yom HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.  You shouldn't be blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral, righteous and decent.  
 
This sounds exactly like the goals of christianity.  And how does one express this righteouness without embracing Torah?
 
Many of us have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in christianity. I for one will not be bound again.  
 
I pity any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.  Buyer beware.
 
Web

  






Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.


Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 



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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  6 13:11:36 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:11:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
In-Reply-To: <070620091810.8097.4A523E060007BEE500001FA122216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC><COL119-DS564ED9728152824BC1A9CBA2B0@phx.gbl>
	<070620091810.8097.4A523E060007BEE500001FA122216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1369EC8AD0274CD4CE6236BA2B0@phx.gbl>

Thanks, John.  I also loved your "two cents worth!"


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:10 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] noahide article


Amein Pat!.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


  -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


  Marvin, this article is most valuable.  Almost 25 years ago I began studying this subject matter in depth.  It was not something I particularly cared to do, but had a very strong prompting from HaShem, so reluctantly began.  All these years later, I'm so thankful that I followed His lead.  The understanding I gained, though not pleasant (especially to me as a dedicated Christian at that time), is something I find truly invaluable.   

  Like the Church Fathers who are quoted in this Mesora article, my first response to this knowledge was that the pagan practices found in Christianity were merely satanic counterfeits of the "real thing."  However, the more I studied, the more I had to accept the fact that the Hebrew Bible was a radical departure from the ideas espoused by the pagan Mystery Religions, while my own faith, Christianity, was completely recognizable in them.

  Our Father, Abraham, was told by HaShem to leave Ur of the Chaldees, thus leaving behind his native country which was inundated by Mystery Religion worship.  I most sincerely believe that we too are called to leave behind the religious affiliations of our birth, and follow HaShem just like Abraham did.  We too are called to make his same radical departure from the faith into which most of us were born.

  The Jewish Rabbi, upon whom Christianity was founded, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.  The problem is Mystery Religion itself, which very rapidly enveloped Christianity (actually, a better name for this Rabbi's movement than "christianity" would simply be "Torah Faith.").  This Jewish Rabbi both followed and taught only Torah Faith.  I truly believe he never crossed over into the territory of the pagan gods as we have been led to do.  He would be appalled to find himself associated with the perversions of Mystery Religion taught in his name today.  Unlike Abraham, his forefather, he never had to leave Ur of the Chaldees, because he WAS NEVER THERE..................but we are.

  Thank you, Marvin,

  Avigail/Pat


  From: Marvin Hyde 
  Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 10:46 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article


   

  Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.

   

   

   

  I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



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From craftymom_54 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 09:55:55 2009
From: craftymom_54 at yahoo.com (Karen Miller)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:55:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
Message-ID: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on june 12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3 children and grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants to start over and be a success.....we have no idea where he is...we care and miss him...please pray for us...paul is on the dialogue,has been for awhile and have no idea if he is reading them anymore or not.....blessings to all..karen miller from ohio..


      
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul  6 13:26:16 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:26:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
In-Reply-To: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5B735B0335244358A109BBA103767702@bettylaptop>

Karen, my heart goes out to you and your children and grandson..  I cannot
imagine dealing with what you and your family are facing.

I will certainly keep you and Paul and your family in my prayers.  Please
let us know when you hear something.

Love & prayers,

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Karen Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 9:56 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..

 


i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on june
12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3 children and
grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants to start over and be a
success.....we have no idea where he is...we care and miss him...please pray
for us...paul is on the dialogue,has been for awhile and have no idea if he
is reading them anymore or not.....blessings to all..karen miller from
ohio..

 

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  6 13:27:07 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:27:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
In-Reply-To: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <070620091827.17892.4A5241FB00002FDC000045E422216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Karen, we are praying.

Paul, if you are listening, for what it is worth, I am not aware of any Torah or Biblical based doctrines that support abandoning your family. They sound like they love you and want to help you through whatever crisis you are going through.  In my opinion, you should go home and work this out together.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Karen Miller <craftymom_54 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on june 12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3 children and grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants to start over and be a success.....we have no idea where he is...we care and miss him...please pray for us...paul is on the dialogue,has been for awhile and have no idea if he is reading them anymore or not.....blessings to all..karen miller from ohio..
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul  6 13:33:09 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:33:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS1369EC8AD0274CD4CE6236BA2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <87DFEFC2A60E486EBD51531887813D1B@TESTPC><COL119-DS564ED9728152824BC1A9CBA2B0@phx.gbl>
	<070620091810.8097.4A523E060007BEE500001FA122216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<COL119-DS1369EC8AD0274CD4CE6236BA2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DAA787A2E25B4FE88E775844F9E0FBBC@bettylaptop>

Amein to you both! The whole Mystery Religion thing is anathema to HaShem
and would have been anathema to  this "Jewish Rabbi" spoken of in the
article who proclaimed and lived by the Shema!  The two just don't mix!
Thanks again, Marvin, for sharing.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:12 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] noahide article

 

Thanks, John.  I also loved your "two cents worth!"

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:10 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] noahide article

 

Amein Pat!.

 

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins"
<patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 

Marvin, this article is most valuable.  Almost 25 years ago I began studying
this subject matter in depth.  It was not something I particularly cared to
do, but had a very strong prompting from HaShem, so reluctantly began.  All
these years later, I'm so thankful that I followed His lead.  The
understanding I gained, though not pleasant (especially to me as a dedicated
Christian at that time), is something I find truly invaluable.   

 

Like the Church Fathers who are quoted in this Mesora article, my first
response to this knowledge was that the pagan practices found in
Christianity were merely satanic counterfeits of the "real thing."  However,
the more I studied, the more I had to accept the fact that the Hebrew Bible
was a radical departure from the ideas espoused by the pagan Mystery
Religions, while my own faith, Christianity, was completely recognizable in
them.

 

Our Father, Abraham, was told by HaShem to leave Ur of the Chaldees, thus
leaving behind his native country which was inundated by Mystery Religion
worship.  I most sincerely believe that we too are called to leave behind
the religious affiliations of our birth, and follow HaShem just like Abraham
did.  We too are called to make his same radical departure from the faith
into which most of us were born.

 

The Jewish Rabbi, upon whom Christianity was founded, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
The problem is Mystery Religion itself, which very rapidly enveloped
Christianity (actually, a better name for this Rabbi's movement than
"christianity" would simply be "Torah Faith.").  This Jewish Rabbi both
followed and taught only Torah Faith.  I truly believe he never crossed over
into the territory of the pagan gods as we have been led to do.  He would be
appalled to find himself associated with the perversions of Mystery Religion
taught in his name today.  Unlike Abraham, his forefather, he never had to
leave Ur of the Chaldees, because he WAS NEVER THERE..................but we
are.

 

Thank you, Marvin,

 

Avigail/Pat

 

From: Marvin Hyde <mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net>  

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 10:46 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] noahide article

 

 

Good article on Noahides this week in the jewish times.

 

 

 

I read the JewishTimes and thought you would enjoy it too. Click here to
print your own free copy: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes.html

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 13:44:26 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:44:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] How Many More Birthdays does America Have Left?
Message-ID: <856199.27489.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-many-more-birthdays-does-america.html

As America celebrates its 233rd birthday, it is worth taking a moment to ask, How many more birthdays does America have left?


The fireworks burn bright. The flags wave high. There are proud salutes and marching bands. There are hot dogs and frankfurters. But those are the trappings, and what is inside them? Yesterday I passed by numerous smoking grills, fireworks and cheerful families. There was only one minor detail wrong. The flag that hung behind them was the Puerto Rican flag, not the American flag.

One minor detail that showcases how little easy it is to throw away the substance of America, when you have already replaced everything meaningful with empty showmanship. When you have done that, throwing out the few things that remain becomes very easy. Absurdly easy then to wrap socialism or communism in the red, white and blue, to shoot off firework displays around it while waving the flag. And when you do it long enough, no one will even bother to notice whose flag it is you're waving.

A news headline reads, "Tea party protests marr independence day". As if Independence Day were not there precisely for things such as the Tea Party protests, more than for consuming fast food, watching the lights in the sky and cheering when an unelected socialist leader delivers his carefully scripted address. But that is how a nation falls. That is how a nation dies. Before its cities burn and its name dies, its soul dies first. And when the soul is dead, all that is left is a corpse being propped upright by the cheering crowds.

How many birthdays then does America really have left? Every birthday is also a mark of mortality. A time to look ahead and wonder, "when?" The Roman Republic endured for almost 500 years, twice as long as America has to date. The Empire that succeeded it could not even manage 450 years. Many historians expected America to follow the Roman pattern, going from Republic to Empire. Instead America seems to have skipped over the heyday of the Empire to hurry forward to its waning twilight years.

Like many democracies America has indeed fallen prey to a "Bread and Circuses electorate", which as always vote in corrupt governments willing to promise grand scale giveaways at someone else's expense. But the retreat from Empire means that American socialism is not premised on looting and raiding other people's lands, but rather domestic wealth redistribution.

There is a shadow over America, but it is a shadow cast by a tottering monolith, the great edifice of government being erected higher and higher by hundreds of millions of willing and unwilling slaves, sweating and toiling for the promise of "better and cheaper everything brought to you by the government of the United States."

America has become an Empire, but not an Empire that rules over foreign lands, but an Empire of bureaucracy, of endless departments and administrations, of mountains of paper forms and ant-hives of regulators, organizers, inspectors and administrators. The American experiment of freedom and self-government has been conquered and overthrown by legions of bureaucrats, its population chained by a myriad of regulations and its dream of the "land of the free" twisted into a nightmare. And below all the offices promising "free bread" and collecting endless taxes to pay for it, are the circuses, the tawdry celebrity carnivals, the sleazy smirk of Hollywood and the endless scream of Reality TV echoing among concrete canyons, sprawling suburbs and dusty hills.

Chained below the mountain of paper are ideas and words like "initiative", "innovation", "industry" and "a government of the people by the people." Somewhere beneath that great pile of paper lie a few stray documents such as the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. But they are just papers at the bottom of the pile, much less regarded than the forms and regulations that weigh them down and bury them. They are simply "traditions", like the flag and the firecrackers. And traditions without meaning quickly become disposable.

Yet these documents are not just traditions, they were meant to define its principles and place limits on its government to insure that Americans would be a free people living in a free land, rather than living out the sad mockery of the home of the fee and the land of the slave that Obama and his ilk mean to turn it into.

And when those documents are paid tribute to, but not read, and certainly not governed by. Then they can just as easily be replaced by other documents and the fiat of activist judges. And when the flag is simply viewed as an arrangement of colors and shapes, rather than representing the unity of individual states within a system of federated states... it is easy enough to replace it with any other flag, whether it is the Puerto Rican flag, the Mexican flag or the U.N. flag.

And that is exactly how to kill the soul of a nation and how to destroy America. The soul of a nation lie in its principles, its laws and its history. When those are dead, all that remain are symbols that no one will know how to read anymore, just as most people ignore the symbols on coins and dollar bills, or the statues leaning against ancient government buildings. The greatest ally of tyranny is ignorance. Its second greatest ally is greed.


To survive, to live to see many more birthdays, Americans must triumph over those who voted in the name of ignorance and greed, not to mention socialist self-righteousness. Whether or not America will survive to see a 300th birthday will depend on whether the nation's steps will move toward rebirth or redefinition.

Those who have placed Obama upon his pedestal have been working toward redefinition for a very long time. To see an American in Name Only, a nation with no values or principles, but diversity and centralization. Their America will be a mockery of the United States of America, just as the debauchery and degeneracy of Imperial Rome was a mockery of the Roman Republic.

For America to not only survive, but to thrive as a nation following in the footsteps of its Founders, whose Independence celebrations are not a hollow cocktail of diversity without principle of substance, America must be reborn along the standards of its founding documents. Only going back to America's roots can save America from the crimes of its leaders and the folly of its youth.


      
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From rossknichols at me.com  Mon Jul  6 14:03:43 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
In-Reply-To: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D8B8F690-A93E-46AC-82A1-19E7B1FE0BA8@me.com>

Dear Karen,

We are praying with you about this situation.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2009, at 9:55 AM, Karen Miller <craftymom_54 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on  
> june 12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3  
> children and grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants  
> to start over and be a success.....we have no idea where he is...we  
> care and miss him...please pray for us...paul is on the dialogue,has  
> been for awhile and have no idea if he is reading them anymore or  
> not.....blessings to all..karen miller from ohio..
>
> _______________________________________________
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From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 14:32:55 2009
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <521453.90956.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
I got to thinking about what I said about Cornelious in the Christian Bible. He was called a G-d Fearer. That was a sect of people, not Hebrew. Joe Good said he was probably a Roman, but he followed the Hebrew religion. He went to synogogue and followed all the traditions. So, G-d Fearer may be a category option. Also, I doubt that the Benjamintes and Levites that went with Judah, became sons of Judah. Like I said, we each follow that burning inside to do what G-d has called us individually to do.
Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:02 PM




 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 







Absolutely, Glenn! ??And it was jam packed
and put so eloquently in a nutshell! Thanks, Eliron.?  

My little bitty two cent email ended with
a rhetorical question?? I too believe that
the Torah is for all and eventually all will come to Torah?when the whole earth
will be full of the Knowledge of HaShem!? In the meantime, what do we,
whose hearts are not only turned to Torah but literally ?grabbed? and irresistibly pulled towards HaShem and Torah?what do we
do? 

And I think you answered it?Eliron. I
believe that we each need to ?bloom where we are planted,? and if we happen to
be uprooted, as so many of us have, by various and sundry reasons, then we need
to surrender ourselves to our Creator and allow Him to lovingly ?transplant? us,
and begin blooming there.? We may not all be in the same ?garden?, but I
believe that all of us who have given our hearts and our lives over to HaShem, can
flourish and effect the lives of those around us. 

 ? 

Web, If I may, I would like to copy and
paste a quote from you that I just now read on SWW because I believe it so fits
the whole ?heart? of this discussion? 

??Find Yisrael and love them face to face.?  

Wow, what a powerful thought?that is just
what we need to do?and your group is a living witness of that.? ?If I might add?I
believe that for some of us, we can in addition ?Find Judah 
and love them face to Face.?? That is where I find myself in
addition to reaching out to Yisrael in every way that I can. 

In so doing, I believe that they will
recognize us as their lost brothers and sisters? whether of Joseph or any of
the other tribes that have in most Jewish minds disappeared off the face of the
earth! ?My personal conviction is that I am of the lost tribes?Every time I
read Deut 30 about the ?Reawakening? and the ?Regathering? my heart quickens
and I am stopped dead in my tracks?Believe it or not, Nitzavim turned out to be
the Torah Portion the week Roger and I converted?I did not pick the date?our
rabbi did?and I have often wondered how really ?random? that was.??  

 ? 

But as I have said, conversion to Judaism
is not something that I advocate for anyone?it is up to each person?and this
path is not the path for all.? And if turns out not my roots do not actually go
back to one of the tribes, then that is okay too?because I will not have lived
my life in vain?for I truly believe that in living Torah lifestyle that I have
effected the lives of those around me.  

 ? 

We each have our roles?let us live in them?In
the end, HaShem can sort us all out?in the meantime, let us keep loving and ?speaking
to one another?? 

 ? 

My love to you all,  

 ? 

Elisheva/Betty 

 ? 







From:
dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 7:09
PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue]
"The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"] 

 ? 


 
  
  I think that was more like a buck-fifty, rather than
  two cents...

  

  --- On Sun, 7/5/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  < carlson_john at bellsouth.net >
  wrote: 
  

  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  < carlson_john at bellsouth.net >

  Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July
  &UniversalFreedom"]

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:00 PM 
  
  
  Web, 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  You are most correct, we all tend to forget that no
  matter what we call ourselves and which rules we follow, it is all based on
  faith. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  This is why I push back so hard against religions
  and labels.? Fo me, what I believe has absolutely nothing to do with
  religion (in fact, it is my belief that HaShem Himself wants nothing to do
  with religion at all).? What I believe has everything to do with a
  personal relationship with the eternal creator of the universe, YHVH.?
  Something that requires my attention every day. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  I had a very good discussion with Carin's Rabbi a
  couple of weeks ago.? I explained to him that while I have no problem
  with Carin converting (because it is what she feels led to do in her
  relationship with HaShem), I had no intention or desire to convert.?
  Truly, I judge no-one that is led that way, but for now, as far as I can tell,
  it is not my way.? My primary reason is that conversion requires
  committal to the Mishnah, and I am not ready to accept that, any more than I
  am ready to accept papal bulls or protestant revelations.? He was very
  understanding of that position and I respect that very much. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  My relationship with HaShem is based on the Written
  Torah and that, in itself, is based on faith, because it is by faith that I
  accept the Torah as YHVH's Word.? Everything else is commentary. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  Joe, I must say that one thing you wrote caught my
  attention.? You said that groups out there that have a deep devotion to
  Torah but "have an agenda" make Rabbi's nervous.? Please allow
  me to say that the problem is actually nervous Rabbi's, or more broadly,
  nervous men of God.? The problem is that men seem to think that they
  need to protect God from the heathens.?  
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  I have been developing a theory in my studies that
  concludes that the Oral Torh was intended to remain oral from it's inception
  and that writing it down was a mistake.? Here are the reasons; 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  1.??HaShem instructed Moshe to write down
  the part that he wanted to be written down.? The rest he left open to
  the interpretation of His children.? He did that so His children would
  debate and dialogue and exercise the sense of mercy and compassion that He
  gave them.? In doing?so, they would not fall into the trap of
  making the letter of the Law itself the purpose of thier existence. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  2.? It is the Oral Torah that gave
 Israel and finally
 Judah , it's identity.? The
  written Torah was available to all mankind (yes, this includes Shabbat), the
  Oral Torah belonged to Israel 
  and was uo to?their discretion to include the stranger, but it should be
  clear that the stranger is to be included in ALL of Torah once they accept
  it. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  3.? The Mishnah was not written down until
  after the destruction of Jerusalem 
  in 70 ce.? The reason it was written down was that "nervous"
  Rabbi's got worried that Judah 
  would forget who they were.? But what they forgot was that it was the
  very fact that it was committed to memory that made it effective as the thing
  that unified Judah .?
  So in writing it down, they made it a portable thing, something that no
  longer was tied to Judah or the Land 
   of Israel alone.?
  It was something that could be assimilated amongst the? nations as
 Judah 
  eventually was.? Is there any wonder why there are so many Jews that
  feel no connection to the Land today? 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  I believe that it is no coincidence that it is the
  written Torah that those of us on these lists are being called to.? I
  don't care whether we are called B'nai Noach, Joseph, Ephraim or Judah.?
  We are answering the same call.? There are those of Judah who have not
  even heard this call yet, they are still waiting for Obama to save
  them.? We'll see later how things go with the the Oral Torah, when
  Maschiach sorts it out for us.? The fact is, before that can happen, WE
  have to gather ourselves together and quit fighting over foolish
  things.? To quote a famous Rabbi, get the?beams out of our own eyes
  before we try to take motes out of our brother's.?  
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  Along those lines please allow me to make one more
  observation, Israel was
  not chosen because they were a special people, they are a special people
  because they were chosen, and Judah 
  has no monopoly on that.? Yes, it is true that proving any of us has any
  connection to Israel 
  is going to be difficult, but let's just suppose that whether we are able to
  prove it or not makes absolutely no difference, let's just suppose that
  HaShem knows who his flock is and that He is able to ensure that they answer
  His call.? Let's just suppose that we judge each other by our works and
  not by our words. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  Oh yeah, one more thing.? It is true that
  Epraim's Tikkun is arrogance, no doubt.? But let us not forget that
 Judah 's
  Tikkun is jealousy.? People often confuse the terms jealousy and
  envy.? Envy is coveting something that belongs to someone else jealousy,
  on the other hand, is wanting to POSSESS something that has been given to you
  as a gift.? It is appropriate to call HaShem a jealous God, we are His
  gift to Himself and therefore He has every right to want to posses us, even
  though He gave us the right to chose.? Men, however (Judah), have no
  right to be jealous of His love or His Torah, it is a gift to
  all?mankind, placed in Judah's hands so that it would be a light to all
  men for all eternity. 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  My two cents. 
  
  
  --

  Eliron/John. 

  

  "Be excellent to each other!" 

  Bill and Ted  
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  -------------- Original message from
  "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>: -------------- 

  

  ?  
  
  Omein V'omein! 
  
  
  
  ----- Original Message -----  
  
  
  From: Web
  Hulon  
  
  
  To: roots of faith  
  
  
  Sent: Sunday, July 05,
  2009 1:34 PM 
  
  
  Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re:
  [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July
  &UniversalFreedom"] 
  
  
   ? 
  
  Shalom Joe, 
  
  ? 
  
  One more
  thing. In your post you said ?it is a very
  brave statement to assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah
  are from the lost tribes.??  
  
  ? 
  Thank you,
  but I did not say ?all.?? However, this yearning is my point. It is this
  yearning FOR TORAH that defines us.? According to the original article: 
  ? 
  It is not a
  religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual
  observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not bare any resemblance to anything
  culturally or religiously Jewish. 

  True Noahidism is
  about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human being."? 
  ? 
  Noakhidism
  is about yearning to be moral, righteous and decent, and SHOULD NOT bare any
  resemblance to anything religiously Jewish.? Noakhidism is not about
  yearning for Torah.? These aren?t my rules or opinions, they are the
  Rabbi?s. 
  ? 
  The whole
  concept?seems to be?an exercise in contradiction.? If you read
  the seven laws of Noah you will see that they are all a part of most modern
  judicial systems.? Almost everyone is already a ?B?nei Noakh? because
  most folks are bound by these laws simply by being a citizen of their
  country.? If you are a citizen of the
 United States you accept these
  laws by default. 
  ? 
  To further
  show the contradictions I quote the Jewish Encyclopedia: 
  ? 
  Resh La?ish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death"
  (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the
  Noachid?. 
  ? 
  Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would
  have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge
  might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of
  the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of
  Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death." 
  ? 
  If the
  article is correct and those that are B?nei Noakh should not do anything
  culturally or religiously resembling the Jews, and Torah shouldn?t be taught
  to a B?nei Noakh and a B?nei Noakh observing the Shabbat is deserving of
  death, then why were there Noakhides at the Chabad House Shabbat service that
  you attended? 
  ? 
  This all
  sounds quite inconsistent and there sure are a lot of folks deserving of
  death just because of a little Torah yearning.? This is not the first
  time that I have asked these questions and yet no one has ever been able to
  give me a straight answer.? Who is a B?nei Noakh?? Who decides who
  is a B?nei Noakh?? Aren?t most people really B?nei Noakh because of
  their local laws?? Why is it that the only? B'nei Noakh that I can
  find in all of Tanakh are Shem, Cham, and Yapheth? With who did? this
  concept of B?nei Noakh originate?? What are the Scriptural proofs for
  this idea?? Who gets to kill the B?nei Noakh that keeps Shabbat??
  (Just kidding. Making sure you are awake.)? What if I do yearn for Torah
  and am not a Jew and have no desire to be a Jew?  
  ? 
  And while I
  am being provocative, let me ask another out of line question, not just to
  Joe, but to anyone and?everyone.? I hate the replacement theology
  of Christianity that says that the church replaced Yisrael and now is
  Yisrael, but isn?t the concept that
 Judah replaced all of the other
  tribes as Yisrael not really just another form of replacement theology??
  Or is this too offensive for me to ask?? Oops.? Too late.?  
  ? 
  There will
  have to be much discussion and many questions answered by ALL involved if we
  are going to see the Kingdom 
   of Heaven on this
  earth.? Or we can just all serve our own sacred cows and bow to our own
  defense mechanisms and follow our hearts and forget the Kingdom. 
  ? 
  Chizqu v?
  imtzu 
  ? 
  Web 
  ?

  

  ? 
  
  
  
  Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009
  17:51:31 +1000

  From: jid at westnet.com.au

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July
  & UniversalFreedom"]

  

  Shalom
  Web,

  

  thank you for bringing up some very pertinent points.

  This very same issue together with Isaiah 56 was discussed yesterday at
  Chabad House after the Shabbat service with the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. The
  group comprised of Orthodox Jews , Noachides and some in betweens.

  

  Firstly, how can one confirm
  if he or she is from the lost tribes?

  Sure one can can speculate based on an emotion or a feeling.

  Without devaluing your convictions Web, it is a very brave statement to
  assume that all gentiles that have a yearning for Torah are from the lost
  tribes. I know your sincerity and devotion and the community that you have
  founded, but there are many other groups that have the same convictions but
  with an agenda. This makes the Rabbis extremely nervous , with reason if you
  consider the historical issues.

  

  With regards Isaiah 56, Rav Moshe was quite clear. Any gentile, irrespective
  of their background, personal conviction can become a part of Yisrael.....
  but through conversion. This is what is prescribed by being in covenant with
  HaShem. Brit Milah and Mikvot being the means after having accepted the
  responsibility of understanding and keeping the mitzvot.

  He gave an analogy of an immigrant who comes to
 Australia , loves the land, the
  people and the way of life. He can live and participate in the Australian way
  of life and be bound by the law of the land but he will always be an
  immigrant without the full rights of a Australian.? However, he or she
  may decide to become a naturalized citizen after the prescribed qualifying
  period. He or she may have their past scrutinized to confirm no past criminal
  history. When all criteria is met he or she may then proceed to take the oath
  and start enjoying all the benefits of the new adopted country.

  I thought this was a very good analogy. One may feel Australian but may not
  partake until the oath is taken. This is akin to conversion. Yes we are bound
  by the law of the land that applies to all and sundry, but we can only
  receive the full benefits like medicare, voting rights and social security
  once we are fully under oath / covenant. To receive these benefits under
  false pretense is stealing.

  

  There are many examples of righteous gentiles who converted to Torah Judaism
  in the Tanach. These were not necessarily lost tribers. From Rachav the
  prostitute to Ruth the Maobitess and Ovadiah the Edomite.

  These all came into covenant with HaShem by their faithfulness not bloodline.

  Rachav married Yehoshua ben Nun after protecting the spies.

  Ruth married Boaz after conversion and became the great grandmother of King
  David.

  Ovadiah help hide and protect the prophets of HaShem.

  They were not under any obligation but made a free will choice.

  Ruth's redemption was a function of her relationship with her mother in law,
  Naomi. 

  Naomi can be seen as an illusion to Yisrael, in that she wanted to change her
  name to Mara (bitterness) because she had lost her husband and two sons. The
  right of redemption fell to the closest of kin who forewent this right
  because he was not willing to marry Ruth. This right then fell on Boaz. In
  actuality his right of redemption was? for Naomi but extended to Ruth
  because "she had been better to Naomi than 7 sons." The rest is
  history.

  

  This is the beauty of Torah Judaism unlike Christianity and Islam..... There
  is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. There is no emphasis
  on convert or perish. 

  The option for conversion is there if one decides to take this path.

  

  Personally , if we are from Beit Yosef, then our tikkun is arrogance.

  How can we stand with our brother Yehudah with 2500 years of unfinished
  business and blood on our hands.

  You rightfully mentioned that Yehudah was the caretaker of Torah. You
  mentioned our exile but what about his and the persecutions to boot. We are
  back, but he never left, and paid a heavy price.

  I never had my possessions confiscated, I was never forced to live in a
  ghetto, I was never forced to wear funny clothes with a yellow badge of shame
  and never had to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.

  Yehudah did, so that there would be a Torah to return to, not just for Beit
  Yosef but for all humanity.

  

  This is not a case of conversion, inheritance or rights.

  I cannot demand anything from HaShem. It is His right and gift as He sees
  right.

  To think otherwise would be gross presumption on my part.

  True conversion starts in the heart.

  Once this takes place then a physical expression must follow.

  This physical expression is exemplified by commitment just like marriage.

  A partner should never demand his or her rights.

  We should do what we should do because it is right not because of our rights.

  

  To stand with Yehudah requires a physical expression not a speculative hunch
  or feeling.

  This in turn necessitates commitment.

  There are many projects in Yisrael that are currently at hand for all of us
  to be involved in.

  This will speak volumes to Yehudah. They need our total support with no
  strings attached.

  

  I for one intend to convert in the land , b'Ezrat HaShem.

  To be Torah observant requires the land to be in the equation mix. It is a mitzvah.

  My dedication is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His land.

  I do not intend to gate crash. I will join according to the halachah, up
  front, no strings attached.

  I am prepared to do what it takes. I have already made inroads. My wife is
  the largest and only obstacle.

  If Mashiach comes and reveals my tribal ancestry to be Beit Yosef , all and
  well, if not ,all and well.

  The heritage is perseverance and faith not demand.

  I know my sense of place and as Ross stressed in his teaching on Parashat Korach,
  and Psalm 106, the sons of the Korahites knew their sense of place after the
  rebellion and we glad just to be door keepers in the end.

  

  Beit Yosef must truely be a humble servant.

  Once that is internalized the true mission and responsibility will be revealed.

  This will be the catalyst for unification.

  

  In the meantime Web, I personally wish you and your community my best wishes
  and may you prosper in all your
  endeavours.???????????????????????????????????????????????????
  

  

  Shalom v'Ahavah

  JOE.

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  --Forwarded Message Attachment--

  From: webhulon at msn.com

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
  UniversalFreedom"

  Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:26:59 -0400 
  Shalom all, 
  Anyone that knows me knows that I am
  fully convinced that the so-called ?gentiles? yearning for Torah in this day
  are actually the lost sheep of the House (or Kingdom) of Yisrael.? We
  are not Jews and, as far as our community goes, we have no desire to become
  Jews. ?We have a prophetic job to do as Yisrael, also known as Ephraim
  the House of Joseph.? Who will do our job if we convert to Judaism? 
  ? 
  Being fully convinced of who we are
  gives me, and those of our community, a different perspective.? The
  Torah is not only the inheritance of Judah, the Jews, but it is also our
  inheritance and heritage.? Judah, our older brother, has kept and
  protected the Torah, in Judaism, for all of Yisrael as we have gone through
  our extended exile.? But we are back.?  
  ? 
  We aren?t here to steal anything, but to
  stand alongside our brothers in
 Judah and reclaim what our
  fathers shamefully threw away long ago.? We take responsibility for
  those actions and seek to repair that which was broken. 
  ? 
  ? 
  Deut 22:1-3 
  1?????????
  "You shall not see your brother's ox or his sheep going astray, and hide
  yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother. 
  2?????????
  "And if your brother is not near you, or
  if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your
  brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him. 
  3?????????
  "You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his
  garment; with any lost thing of your
  brother's, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you
  must not hide yourself. 
  ? 
  The Torah has been safe in the House of
  Judah.? Now brothers that were unknown to them have come to reclaim our
  part.? The beauty with Torah is that we can be given a share without
 Judah ?s share
  diminishing at all.? As a matter of fact I believe that Torah will
  increase in Judah 
  due to the return of Joseph. ?Why?? Because when you have the
  responsibility of teaching something to another, you learn it more completely
  yourself. 
  ? 
  The teachings of the Noakhides prevent
  Joseph from returning to his heritage and blessing his brothers. ?It
  removes our responsibility.? My personal opinion is that it may be for
  those who aren?t from Joseph, but for a Josephite it is a cop out. 
  ? 
  It is understandable that
 Judah would
  mistrust this latter day revelation considering that most of Joseph is coming
  out of Christianity with all of the baggage that goes with that.? But if
  we read the Torah and the Prophets, this return must come about. Not so that
  we can all go to heaven, but so that the
 Kingdom of YHWH ,
  our true King, will be established here on this earth. 
  ? 
  If yours is the path of the Noakhide,
  without Shabbat and the Festivals and all of Torah, be blessed.? But
  ours is the path of Torah in our original context as children of Avraham,
  Yitsakh and Ya?acov and along with Judah and, to quote a Levitical friend of
  mine, we will succeed because there is no one willing to put as much effort
  into stopping us as we are willing to put into accomplishing our return. 
  

  Web 
  
  
  
  From:
  rlibby03 at maine.rr.com

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July &
  UniversalFreedom"

  Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:31:49 -0400 
  
  ? 
  
  
  
  ----- Original Message -----  
  
  
  From: Patty
   
  
  
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org  
  
  
  Sent: Saturday, July
  04, 2009 1:30 PM 
  
  
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue]
  "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom" 
  
  
   ? 
  
  
  From Isa. 56: 
  
  

  [3] Neither let the son of the
  stranger, that has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH has utterly
  separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry
  tree. 
  
  Exo 33:16? so shall we be
  separated, I?and thy? people from all the people that are upon the
  face of the earth.? So what is Isaiah referring to, or what does he
  mean????? 
  ? 
  [4] For
  thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things
  that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

  [5] Even unto them will I give
  in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and
  of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut
  off. 
  [6]
  Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him,
  and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keeps the
  Sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant; 
  Exo 19:5??Keep my
  covenant,????? And you shall be a special treasure
  unto me above all people----------unto the childen of
 Israel .??
  (Not Gentiles) ?? 
  ? 
  [7]
  Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house
  of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon
  mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 
  ? 
  I believe he is referring to
  ,?? Exo 12:48?& 49? And when a "stranger"
  shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his
  males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: and he shall be
  as one that is born in the land.?? IN other
  words------convert,? go all the way, not half way.  
  ? 
  Shabbat Shalom, 
  Patty 
  ? 
  ? 
  
  
  From:
  dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L

  Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009
  11:38 AM

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Subject: Re: [Dialogue]
  "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom" 
  
  
  ? 
  
  Of cource there are different
  views from all of us. I personelly believe it is wrong to act or try to live
  as a Jew when you are not Jewish. Hashem chose them to be special unto him. I
  would be stealing from them what G-d gave them.?  
  
  
  ???? If
  every one, (Gentiles),? acted and lived as Jews, there would be no need
  for a Special people.?? Would there ????? 
  
  
  ??? Acts
  15:14? and 15:21 seems to cover the subject, as Moses is involved, which
  to?me? means he teaches Torah too the Gentiles as it pertains to
  them. Just my thoughts.?? Dick l 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  ? 
  
  
  
  Subject: RE:
  [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July & UniversalFreedom" 
  
  
  
  ? 
  
  Shalom?all,

  ?

  Please notice the following
  statements taken from this article:

  ?

  "It is
  not a religion or a theology. It has no unique cultural expressions or ritual
  observances. It is not a pseudo-Judaism and it should not
  bare any resemblance to anything culturally or religiously Jewish. 

  True
  Noahidism is about being a moral, righteous and thus decent human
  being."?

  ?

  This means
  that if you embrace the ways of the Noakhide you should not be kindling
  Shabbat lights and eating Kosher.? You should not be fasting on Yom
  HaKippurim or staying in the Sukkah during Sukkot.? You shouldn't be
  blessing the Creator before breaking bread. Instead you should be moral,
  righteous and decent.? 

  ?

  This sounds
  exactly like the goals of christianity.? And how does one express this
  righteouness without embracing Torah?

  ?

  Many of us
  have already been sold into the slavery of morality without Torah in
  christianity.?I for one will not be bound again.? 

  ?

  I
  pity?any man that has to answer for those that he discouraged from
  walking in Torah but encouraged to be moral and righteous.? Buyer
  beware.

  ?

  Web

  

  ? 
  
  
  
   ? 
  
  
  
  Insert movie times and more without leaving
  Hotmail?. See how. 
  
  
  
  Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.  
  
  
  
  
  _______________________________________________ 
  
  

  -----Inline Attachment Follows----- 
  
  _______________________________________________ 
  
  
 


 ? 



 


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  6 17:23:54 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 18:23:54 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
In-Reply-To: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <602226.69123.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS19CA6A6D9ED3A0EF0EA6F7BA2B0@phx.gbl>

Hi Karen,

I'm so very sad to hear about the anguish you are enduring.   May HaShem reunite your family.  

Thus says the L-RD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Yisrael;
I AM the L-RD your G-d Who teaches you for your profit, 
Who leads you by the Way that you should go.
Isaiah 48:17

Paul, for your own well-being, as well as that of your family, please allow HaShem to lead you.

Praying for you all,

Avigail/Pat


From: Karen Miller 
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 10:55 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..


      i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on june 12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3 children and grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants to start over and be a success.....we have no idea where he is...we care and miss him...please pray for us...paul is on the dialogue,has been for awhile and have no idea if he is reading them anymore or not.....blessings to all..karen miller from ohio.. 




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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  6 19:53:07 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:53:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
Message-ID: <405560.66521.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Amen, Karen - YHVH knows precisely where he is... and are the single best hands around to trust his care into. We also are interceding.

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..
To: "dialogue at rootsoffaith.org" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:03 PM



Dear Karen,


We are praying with you about this situation.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2009, at 9:55 AM, Karen Miller <craftymom_54 at yahoo.com> wrote:








i have shared with afew of you about my husband paul disappearing on june 12th. he left with the clothes on his back..we(his wife and 3 children and grandson) have had one email from him saying he wants to start over and be a success.....we have no idea where he is...we care and miss him...please pray for us...paul is on the dialogue,has been for awhile and have no idea if he is reading them anymore or not.....blessings to all..karen miller from ohio..


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From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon Jul  6 20:22:04 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:22:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] please remember to pray..]
Message-ID: <4A52A33C.7000702@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon Jul  6 20:22:15 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:22:15 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] noahide article]
Message-ID: <4A52A347.9010908@westnet.com.au>

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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 00:18:07 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:18:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
In-Reply-To: <303BB93A-9C6A-448D-8C27-DAF17BBD8C73@me.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907042247q7b43dc3fv3ed43f4df5c16bec@mail.gmail.com>
	<070620090230.13176.4A5161C900006AD20000337822243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<5EE45F0867C142978363AB9615CA59ED@bettylaptop>
	<303BB93A-9C6A-448D-8C27-DAF17BBD8C73@me.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907062218l224dcf10qac1cc4c390ec6724@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Ross!
A labor of love?  To be honest I started this for me, well for my children,
who are very much a part of me.  Thank you all for participating.  It is
this group's prayers and words of wisdom that made it come to pass, with
HaShem's Blessings of course.

Kim

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> I featured the discussion so that it is easy to find. This is an excellent
> example of how to use the forum. With email all of the great comments get
> lost but the forum keeps topics together.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>  Hey Eliron, go to the Main Page and look under FORUM?it took me quite a
> bit of time finding it too?I found the Prayer Group too along the way, so
> that was a good thing!
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *
> carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:31 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Living the Shema posted on SWW
>
>
>
> Hey Kim,
>
>
>
> I looked and looked and I can't find the Living the Shema page on SWW.  I
> found the Prayer group and joined it though.  I told ya I was gonna need
> help finding the Shema page, how does one get there?
>
>
>
> --
> Eliron/John.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from kim alvarado <
> kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>: --------------
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I just finished posting the results of our prayer effort on the SWW and
> opened the discussion.  I hope that I did not leave anyone's comments out.
>  Please add them if I did.
>
>
>
> Kim
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 04:29:30 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:29:30 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.
Message-ID: <4A53157A.9010904@westnet.com.au>

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From cormary at mts.net  Tue Jul  7 05:11:32 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:11:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.
In-Reply-To: <4A53157A.9010904@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A53157A.9010904@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4A531F54.6020805@mts.net>

Very interesting Joe, although I was aware of this by former studies on 
the matter. It seems to me the whole problem existing is the grasshopper 
idea of such who have no faith in Hashem as our guide, or for that 
matter, being the owner of this universe.

Joe, I am thinking of going to the NYC Manhigut Yehudit Conference 
coming up July 26/09. I will have to see what Hanoch thinks about it.
Shalom

Cornie



JOE INDOMENICO wrote:
>
> _*The**PLO**Charter*_
>
> Posted by JoeSettler
>
>
> As everyone knows, Israel liberated Judea, Samaria and Gaza in 1967.
>
> The PLO, on the other hand was formed in 1964 before there was an 
> "Occupation" and before a single "settlement" (as they are called today).
>
> I was reading an article in the Jerusalem Post, where the author 
> claims 
> <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443736604&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull> 
> that in Article 24 of the PLO Charter, the PLO explicitly renounced 
> any claim to the West Bank, Gaza (or eastern shore of the Kinneret). I 
> remembered no such article in their charter.
>
> And I looked it up and still couldn't find it any such Article in the 
> PLO charter 
> <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/PLO_Covenant.html>. 
> In fact it says:
>
>     Article 24: The Palestinian people believe in the principles of
>     justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity,
>     and in the right of all peoples to exercise them. 
>
> So how could it be the author made such a mistake and the Jerusalem 
> Post didn't pick up on it (no cynical remarks here please).
>
> So I did a little more research and found out that the PLO has 2 
> charters. They also have their original charter which was the basis of 
> the formation of their organization in 1964 - before Israel liberated 
> our lands from Jordan and Egypt.
>
> In Article 24 of the original PLO charter 
> <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html> it states:
>
>     *Article 24.* This Organization does not exercise any regional
>     sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan,
>     on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area.
>
> This charter was only changed in 1968, when Jordan and Egypt lost 
> control over Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
>
> So in fact, before 1967, the Arabs never wanted an "independent 
> Palestinian State" in the "territories".
>
> In fact, "Palestinians" quite happily accepted being under Jordanian 
> and Egyptian sovereignty - and that included East Jerusalem!
>
>
> Now obviously you can say that positions change over time, but 
> consider how radical this change is.
>
> In 1964, the PLO made no demands for sovereignty, much less a capital 
> in Jerusalem or even "East" Jerusalem.
>
> In 1964, the PLO renounced any claim to any of the "Occupied Territories".
>
> The author says that until Jimmy Carter gave them the idea, they never 
> even considered a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.
>
> It was only in 1988 that the PLO first called for a Palestinian 
> capital in East Jerusalem.
>
>
> Now fast forward to 2009.
>
> Now they are also claiming the "Occupied Territories" and Jerusalem 
> (and flooding the rest of Israel with refugees to change the 
> demographic balance in their favor) for their state - sovereignty over 
> which didn't even interest them 45 years ago.
>
> That is a radical switch - or is it?
>
> If you look in terms of the geographic areas, the Palestinians seem to 
> have lost their minds. They are making claims to lands whose claims 
> over which they completely threw away 45 years ago. Land that they 
> didn't claim was theirs 45 years ago.
>
> But if you look at it in terms of goals, then the picture is different.
>
> They want whatever land the Jews are on. The Jews are now on these 
> particular lands - including East Jerusalem - that 45 years ago didn't 
> interest them, so now they want it.
>
> And following that logic, if Israel withdraws from all of Judea and 
> Samaria and East Jerusalem, (which is pretty much what Ehud Olmert 
> offered them) they won't be satisfied, because those territories don't 
> interest them.
>
> They want what the Jews have.
>
> And that's why Abu Mazen turned down Olmert's offer, and that's why 
> they will never sign a document that the conflict with Israel is over 
> - even if they get everything they are demand.
>
> In terms of goals, their position hasn't changed at all - because it 
> has nothing to do with specific geographies.
>
> And that is why no peace plan will work - because they are all 
> addressing the wrong issue.
>
> /Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael ???? ???? ??? ???
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> */
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.6/2221 - Release Date: 07/06/09 17:54:00
>
>   

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 05:41:10 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:41:10 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July
	&UniversalFreedom"]]
Message-ID: <4A532646.90702@westnet.com.au>

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From: Betty Eddy <betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July &UniversalFreedom"]
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 05:45:32 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:45:32 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.]
Message-ID: <4A53274C.9040204@westnet.com.au>

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From: Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:11:32 -0500
Size: 14873
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From cormary at mts.net  Tue Jul  7 05:48:24 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:48:24 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Coming Soon! Manhigut Yehudit NYC Conference
In-Reply-To: <1102632058758.1101491163077.29567.6.41705FF@scheduler>
References: <1102632058758.1101491163077.29567.6.41705FF@scheduler>
Message-ID: <4A5327F8.2070607@mts.net>

Dear Hanoch
What do you think of such an idea of an old bogger like me to go to this 
Conference, right in your home "town"? I have NO idea how complicated 
this could be, or how BIG New York is, although I know it is a very big 
city.  I already checked the air flight which wouldn't be that 
outrageous. Let's say if I was there for Shabbat, one day ahead of the 
conference, would there be someone I could stay with, who would show me 
around, who would anyway want to attend the Conference as well,  that it 
would not be too extravagant costly, and especially that I wouldn't have 
to go lost. I get lost in a big city very easily. I wouldn't want to be 
too much of a burden for anyone either. If hotels where not too 
outrageous expensive I guess I would not have to bother anyone beside 
showing me where to go to the conference. I am just trying to feel my 
way through here. I have no problem just staying at home either. But our 
plant, my work place is shutting down the last week of July anyway.

Cornie



Manhigut Yehudit wrote:
>   	  	
>
> *Authentic Jewish Leadership for Israel*
>
>
> *Coming Soon!  NYC Manhigut Yehudit Conference
> **Sunday, 5 Av, 5769 (July 26, '09)
>  *
>
> *
> Manhigut Yehudit - The Jewish Leadership Movement*
>
> *Moshe Feiglin, President*
> mfeiglin at manhigut.org
>
> *Shmuel Sackett, International Director*
> shmuel at manhigut.org
>
> *Dovid Shirel, Education Director*
> (516) 295-3222
> shir at manhigut.org
>
> *Rob Muchnick, US Director*
> (516) 779-7420 (cell phone)
> rmuchnick at manhigut.org
>
>
> The Manhigut Yehudit website is www.jewishisrael.org 
> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102632058758&s=29567&e=001gDisJXxLNjL2FYwQh0auezVK4WpQ32x72F8_kteXZBQofG2OrJg1zrkNgagVO6aV2hPOaeBDSQEbyFitsuluDoWtzC7UAALw-FKKn8XmFvWLy7hg6PRTOw==>
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Our Aim:* To perfect the world in the Kingdom of the Almighty*
>
>
> *Forward Email 
> <http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1101491163077&ea=cormary%40mts.net&a=1102632058758>*
>
> Safe Unsubscribe 
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>
> This email was sent to cormary at mts.net by 
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>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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From cormary at mts.net  Tue Jul  7 05:51:37 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:51:37 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.]
In-Reply-To: <4A53274C.9040204@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A53274C.9040204@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4A5328B9.2020006@mts.net>

Hey Joe wouldn't that be great to see you there! Sorry, No, Moshe will 
just speak via video.

Cornie


JOE INDOMENICO wrote:
> /Shalom Cornie,
>
> man, how I wish I could join you.
> Will Moshe Feiglin be there?
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> */
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Dialogue] The PLO Charter.
> From:
> Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net>
> Date:
> Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:11:32 -0500
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Very interesting Joe, although I was aware of this by former studies 
> on the matter. It seems to me the whole problem existing is the 
> grasshopper idea of such who have no faith in Hashem as our guide, or 
> for that matter, being the owner of this universe.
>
> Joe, I am thinking of going to the NYC Manhigut Yehudit Conference 
> coming up July 26/09. I will have to see what Hanoch thinks about it.
> Shalom
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> JOE INDOMENICO wrote:
>>
>> _*The**PLO**Charter*_
>>
>> Posted by JoeSettler
>>
>>
>> As everyone knows, Israel liberated Judea, Samaria and Gaza in 1967.
>>
>> The PLO, on the other hand was formed in 1964 before there was an 
>> "Occupation" and before a single "settlement" (as they are called today).
>>
>> I was reading an article in the Jerusalem Post, where the author 
>> claims 
>> <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443736604&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull> 
>> that in Article 24 of the PLO Charter, the PLO explicitly renounced 
>> any claim to the West Bank, Gaza (or eastern shore of the Kinneret). 
>> I remembered no such article in their charter.
>>
>> And I looked it up and still couldn't find it any such Article in the 
>> PLO charter 
>> <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/PLO_Covenant.html>. 
>> In fact it says:
>>
>>     Article 24: The Palestinian people believe in the principles of
>>     justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity,
>>     and in the right of all peoples to exercise them. 
>>
>> So how could it be the author made such a mistake and the Jerusalem 
>> Post didn't pick up on it (no cynical remarks here please).
>>
>> So I did a little more research and found out that the PLO has 2 
>> charters. They also have their original charter which was the basis 
>> of the formation of their organization in 1964 - before Israel 
>> liberated our lands from Jordan and Egypt.
>>
>> In Article 24 of the original PLO charter 
>> <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html> it states:
>>
>>     *Article 24.* This Organization does not exercise any regional
>>     sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of
>>     Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area.
>>
>> This charter was only changed in 1968, when Jordan and Egypt lost 
>> control over Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
>>
>> So in fact, before 1967, the Arabs never wanted an "independent 
>> Palestinian State" in the "territories".
>>
>> In fact, "Palestinians" quite happily accepted being under Jordanian 
>> and Egyptian sovereignty - and that included East Jerusalem!
>>
>>
>> Now obviously you can say that positions change over time, but 
>> consider how radical this change is.
>>
>> In 1964, the PLO made no demands for sovereignty, much less a capital 
>> in Jerusalem or even "East" Jerusalem.
>>
>> In 1964, the PLO renounced any claim to any of the "Occupied 
>> Territories".
>>
>> The author says that until Jimmy Carter gave them the idea, they 
>> never even considered a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.
>>
>> It was only in 1988 that the PLO first called for a Palestinian 
>> capital in East Jerusalem.
>>
>>
>> Now fast forward to 2009.
>>
>> Now they are also claiming the "Occupied Territories" and Jerusalem 
>> (and flooding the rest of Israel with refugees to change the 
>> demographic balance in their favor) for their state - sovereignty 
>> over which didn't even interest them 45 years ago.
>>
>> That is a radical switch - or is it?
>>
>> If you look in terms of the geographic areas, the Palestinians seem 
>> to have lost their minds. They are making claims to lands whose 
>> claims over which they completely threw away 45 years ago. Land that 
>> they didn't claim was theirs 45 years ago.
>>
>> But if you look at it in terms of goals, then the picture is different.
>>
>> They want whatever land the Jews are on. The Jews are now on these 
>> particular lands - including East Jerusalem - that 45 years ago 
>> didn't interest them, so now they want it.
>>
>> And following that logic, if Israel withdraws from all of Judea and 
>> Samaria and East Jerusalem, (which is pretty much what Ehud Olmert 
>> offered them) they won't be satisfied, because those territories 
>> don't interest them.
>>
>> They want what the Jews have.
>>
>> And that's why Abu Mazen turned down Olmert's offer, and that's why 
>> they will never sign a document that the conflict with Israel is over 
>> - even if they get everything they are demand.
>>
>> In terms of goals, their position hasn't changed at all - because it 
>> has nothing to do with specific geographies.
>>
>> And that is why no peace plan will work - because they are all 
>> addressing the wrong issue.
>>
>> /Wherever I am, my blog turns towards Eretz Yisrael ???? ???? ??? ???
>>
>> *Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>> */
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
>> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.6/2221 - Release Date: 07/06/09 17:54:00
>>
>>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.6/2221 - Release Date: 07/06/09 17:54:00
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From cormary at mts.net  Tue Jul  7 07:40:54 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:40:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] inviting a speaker from Mahigut Yehudit
Message-ID: <4A534256.5060300@mts.net>

Dear Hanoch

I recently mentioned something about inviting a speaker from Manhigut 
Yehidut to speak in Winnipeg. I wrote to some of my closest friends in 
Winnipeg as follows below. According to there answer I don't know if it 
helps much to consider it any longer. But maybe i should not give up too 
soon.

Maybe I am even on a wrong goose chase by supporting this movement. It 
seems like there are many Jews who do not really support the land of 
Israel movement, if i am putting it right. I know, or am aware that the 
majority is not always right.

Cornie



Hi Bruce & Fern
Long time no see!  Would like to hear from you again. It has been so 
good to be with you in times past. I have a question for you, just out 
of the blue. Well, I have pondered this for a while already, but would 
just wonder what you think of it. Or, what would you do about furthering 
such thoughts, like inviting some one from Manhigut Yehidut for a 
speaking cession in Winnipeg!!!

Would people in Winnipeg be interested in "An update from Israel, the 
view of the people"? I am sure there would have to be an interest in 
sponsoring it as well. I would do my little that I can. But there would 
have to be others interested, and who would be much more capable to take 
care of matters.

Hi, Cornie,
 
We're just leaving on a trip, and will be gone for most of July, G-d 
willing.  I actually don't know if there are enough Jews in Winnipeg who 
would support the Feiglin platform.  Nor am I sure how one would begin 
to find out.  For sure, it would only be Orthodox Jews, of which there 
are not all that many.  And I am not sure I understand everyone's 
politics--there is a rift between haredim and religious Zionists that I 
don't understand.  I think Modern Orthodox are Zionist, but again I am 
not sure.  Chabad is about the land and people of Israel, but not 
necessarily the State of Israel.  It would take some doing, and I am 
definitely not enough of a mover and shaker to get it going.  But I 
could talk to a few people when we get back--likely around mid-August 
before I'd be ready--and see what I could find out.  Like you, I think 
they are really onto the right path.  Does your ex-teacher support 
them?  Gotta run, because we are in the middle of packing.  No internet 
service while we're gone, so I hope you can be in touch again in early 
August.  Till then, all the best, Cornie.  Fern Kettner
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Jul  8 08:32:29 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:32:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] thanks Joe!
Message-ID: <C365551064F64C94AAD9978DD8850BD9@TESTPC>

I have been doing battle with the sa-tan. He got in my computer, but I have
kicked him out. The date has been corrected. :-)

 

Marvin  

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Jul  8 09:26:41 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:26:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 
	"The Noahide Message, the 4th of July&UniversalFreedom"]]
In-Reply-To: <4A532646.90702@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A532646.90702@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <A2C88F74FCAB4DCD975F1004156AC57E@TESTPC>

Joe and others,

 

I have been following this discussion wanting to jump in but figured if I
got started it would turn into to at least a couple hundred pages.  Barbara,
my wife is getting tired of listening to me preach and respond to each email
to her instead of to the group. :-)    Prayerfully, I considered for days
how to respond.    I believe Hashem has directed me to one book that will
bring some light and understanding to this discussion.  If anyone reading
this has not read  "Israel and Humanity" by Elijah Benamozegh, ISBN
0-8091-3541-8(pbk)  or 0-8091-0468-7(cloth).   I would like to suggest you
obtain a copy and not only read it but study it.   I believe it is one that
we all should have on our bookshelves as we try to return to Hashem and his
"chosen family".   

 

I to follow the thinking you espoused in the attached post.  Regardless of
our place in the Kingdom, and our present position in this present reality,
we must spread the table with what Hashem has given us at this time and
leave the door open for all, regardless of their current understanding as we
sit and eat form the Torah.  I have often said we humans are like donuts, we
have a hole in the middle and the only way to fill it is with Hashem and his
TORAH.  As we sit at the table and eat some eat slow some eat fast, some eat
much and others little bites  like a bird. As long as we are partaking of
Hashems table eventually we will grow and mature into the individual that
Hashem has for each of us  One of the things that finally drove the last
nail in the coffin of institionalized Christianity for me was coming to the
understanding that God is one and that knot I tied in the rope was none
other then GOD TORAH and ISRAEL are one. This standard or banner we can /
should be able to ralley around

 

Jude in the NT / Christian writings admonished his listeners to  continue to
contend for the faith that was once delivered.  What faith was that?   Look
to Abraham in whom ALL families of the earth will be blessed.  Not one
family, not two, three or four, but ALL FAMILES.   Psa 22:24 is worth
looking into. 

 

Psa 22:22  I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the
congregation I will praise you: 

Psa 22:23  You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob,
glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:41 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of
July&UniversalFreedom"]]

 

Shalom Betty,

I would like to clarify the issue of Benyamin, Levi and Yehudah within Beit
Yehudah.

The name " Jew" is a generic name.
During a Synagogue service on Shabbat, the reading of the Torah portion is
divided into seven sections.
All Orthodox congregations are divided into 3 main groupings ; COHEN, LEVI
and YISRAEL.
Before the service begins the shamash organizes which congregation member
will read each section.
Cohen is always given the first preference, followed by Levi, followed by
Yisrael.
Cohen are all direct descendants of Aaron, the High Priest.
Cohen are the only members of the congregation that bestow the Aaronic
blessing as recorded in Numbers chapter 6.
Cohen have the right of redemption of the Pideon ha Ben or the redemption of
the first born male.

The rest of the congregation is called Yisrael.
However all call themselves "Jews."
Most of the "Jews" do not know which tribe they belong to.
When the Kingdom split, the 10 northern tribes called themselves Beit Yosef
or Beit Efrayim.
The remaining 3 tribes formed the Southern Beit Yehudah.
This is not to say that Jews were not found in the north and Efrayimites
were not found in the south.

The houses took their names from the dominant and numerically largest tribe.
In the case of the north, Yosef and in the case of the south, Yehudah.
The demarcation was not clear cut.
Where there Asherites , Gadites and other northerners in Beit Yehudah
?.......... Yes.
Where there Benyaminites and Jews in the north?.........Yes.
Where there Levites operating in the north ?......... Yes---- Samuel, the
Prophet.

I would like to quote from "Mishneh Torah" - The Laws of Kings and their
Wars - by Rambam, Maimonides.
Chapter 12 - Halachah No3.


During the era of the Messianic King, once his kingdom has been established
and all of Israel has gathered around him, the nation's line of descent will
be established on the basis of his words imbued with prophetic insight
resting on him, as Malachi 3:3 states "He shall sit as a refiner and
purifier" - Just as a smelter extracts pure metal from an ore, so the
Mashiach will
clarify the lineage of the tribes. By contrast , in the present age, all the
tribes
are intermingled and no one can be sure of his origins.
                                                                   All
families with tainted lineage who have intermingled with the Jewish people  
                                                                   as a
whole will be accepted. No notice will be made of their suspicious origin.

He will purify the lineage of the Levites  first, stating " This one is a
priest of defined lineage. That one is a Levite of defined lineage" Those
whose lineage he will not recognize will be lowered to the status of
Israelites.This is implied by Ezra 2:63 : " The governor said to them :
'They should not eat of the most holy things until a priest arises who will
wear the Urim and Tumin . '"
>From this verse , you may infer that prophetic insight will be used to
define and make their lineage public.
                                                                  The Urim
and Tumim were consulted as oracles. Thus , by use of the prophetic
                                                                   spirit,
they could determine the priest's lineage. In the second temple, the Urim
                                                                   and Tumim
were not endowed with these prophetic powers ( Hilchot Beit 
 
haBechirah 4:1). Hence, Nehemiah told the priests of questionable lineage to
                                                                   wait for
the Messianic redemption when the doubt concerning their lineage 
                                                                   could be
resolved. Though the Rambam maintains that the Mashiach will divine
                                                                   the
people's lineage without using the Urim and Tumim, their lineage will be 
 
established by the prophetic spirit and not by other means.

When he defines the lineage of the Israelites, he will make public the
tribal origin of each -" This one is from this tribe and that one is from
that tribe," but he will not state of a person presumed to be of unblemished
lineage " that he is illegitimate or he is descendant of slaves," for the
law is, that once a family has become intermingled with the entire Jewish
people they may remain intermingled.- Both a mamzer( illegitimate) and a
slave are forbidden to marry Israelites of untainted lineage.
                                                                  The
Mashiach will be able to identify those families whose lineage is tainted. 
 
Nevertheless, since those families have already become intermingled with the
Jewish
                                                                  people as
a whole , no restrictions will be placed upon them ( Kiddushin, ibid.)


This halachah has enormous ramifications. Very few would qualify for an
untainted lineage with the appropriate documentation.This then leaves the
bulk of those remaining with the hope of the Messianic advent and
redemption.
My belief is that no one can categorically proclaim which tribe he or she
may belong to. This leads to extreme speculation and can be very divisive. I
respect the rabbinic ruling which puts all Jews in the classification of
Israelites unless you are a Cohen or Levite. 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  7 10:22:53 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:22:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
Message-ID: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail.  
Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation



A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks?





I wanted to offer a preliminary update report on the Mt Zion  
Excavation in Jerusalem after three weeks of digging. The results have  
been simply astounding, the finds quite spectacular, and the whole  
area has been transformed. I would dare say that those who have seen  
the site in past years would hardly recognize it. We owe much to our  
loyal team of 50 registered participants, averaging 30 per week, who  
have sacrificed their own money, time, and hard labor to advance this  
important effort. Given the times, with the pressures of the  
recession, many excavations have had to either cancel or severely cut  
back, due to lack of volunteers. UNC Charlotte is the only university  
presently digging in Jerusalem that offers students and volunteers a  
field school experience. This unique opportunity, along with our  
location in Jerusalem, has been a large part of our appeal. Our site  
offers an opportunity to uncover all periods of habitation of this  
important city (from modern through Ottoman, Crusader, Arab,  
Byzantine, and Jewish periods?all the way back to the Iron Age).  
Further, our precise location, on the slopes of Mt Zion, overlooking  
the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mt of Olives, was in ancient  
times precisely at the center of Herodian/2nd Temple Jerusalem in the  
time of Jesus. And what?s more, we have extraordinarily well preserved  
ruins from this 2nd Temple period, culminating in the destruction of  
Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE.





Our major goals this season have been to remove much of the garden  
fill and rubble that has accumulated over the past decades so as to  
get down to the archaeological layers that lie below, with particular  
emphasis on the 2nd Temple period levels that are preserved to an  
extraordinary height of 10-12 meters. We began our work on June 14th  
with two days of manually clearing the site of overgrowth and winter  
debris. At the same time heavy earthmoving equipment was brought in to  
remove up to one meter of modern garden fill and tumbled boulders left  
from the building the modern road that parallels our site. This  
preparatory work allowed us to concentrate on genuine archaeological  
layers from antiquity rather than wasting our precious time on debris,  
fill, and even modern trash layers. As a result the entire site was  
transformed and has begun now to look like a proper archaeological  
site. As readers might recall, we are digging in an area that was  
probed in the 1970s and then abandoned for 40 years! The deep pits and  
gauged out areas left behind had to be incorporated into our  
systematic plan to develop a proper archaeological approach to the  
area. As a result we have had to adopt an ?open field? method of  
digging, rather than a strict grid of squares, however, slowly but  
surely, the whole site is beginning to make some coherent sense, even  
to the untrained eye.



Our progress has been amazing and the finds have been quite  
extraordinary. We will, of course, publish full reports on our Web  
site later this year but in terms of an overview here are some of our  
more spectacular finds so far:





1. A stone vessel with an ancient inscription of ten lines written in  
an archaic Jewish script. Such stone vessels were used in connection  
with maintaining ritual purity related to Temple worship, and they are  
found in abundance in areas where the priests lived. We have found a  
dozen or more on our site over the past three years. However, to have  
ten lines of text is unprecedented. One normally might find a single  
name inscribed, or a line or two, but this is the first text of this  
length ever found on such a vessel. We have shared high-resolution  
photos with various epigraphic experts in Jerusalem who are working  
together to try and decipher this text. It is written in a very  
informal cursive hand and is quite difficult to read.




2. Murex snail shells with holes drilled through them. Prior to our  
excavation one or two such shells had been found in all of Jerusalem  
but our site has yielded a half dozen or more. These snails were  
cultivated at sites along the Mediterranean Sea and a royal blue dye  
was extracted from them. According to some experts this blue color was  
used for the priestly garments, as well as the tzitzit or threaded  
tassels worn by all pious Jews of the period. That so many would be  
found at our site further supports our supposition that we are in a  
priestly residential area in terms of the 2nd Temple/Herodian city in  
the time of Jesus. As we descend into the preserved ruins of the  
houses of this period perhaps we will learn more of how these snails  
and their precious dye were used within the city of Jerusalem itself.




3. A fire pit that can be precisely dated to just after the  
destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE and the rebuilding of  
the city by Hadrian following the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 CE. To  
come upon this level was an amazing thing. Clearly someone had  
returned to the area after the Roman conflagration and was living  
outdoors literally on the ruins of Jerusalem, despite its total  
destruction. Further up the slope of Mt Zion we know that the 10th  
Legion of the Roman army had their camp. This little glimpse through a  
window of time, preserved by the fire pit, we found quite moving to  
contemplate. Our bone expert, Ram Bouchnik, will be examining the type  
of meal this mysterious ?dweller in the ruins? might have prepared.




4. The threshold of a magnificent Fatimid period double gate that led  
into the Tower just adjacent to our site along the present city wall  
built by Suleiman ?the Magnificant? in the 16th century. Magen Broshi,  
who had conducted the initial probes on our site in the 1970s, had  
always insisted there was a gate leading into the city at the tower,  
despite denials by Avigad and others, who had excavated inside the  
Jewish Quarter on the other side of the Wall. We also happened upon  
the rusted metal sign that Broshi had erected at the site at the time  
proclaiming this as the ?Tower Gate? It is entirely possible that this  
threshold goes back to even earlier times, perhaps as far back as the  
Ayyubid period of Saladin (1200s CE). This discovery is most  
significant and will help us in reconstructing the periods of  
habitation that run through our site and provide a dramatic display  
for the public of the early and late Arab periods of Jerusalem?s  
history.




5. An arched doorway with mosaic floor and plastered wall. Last season  
we had uncovered the top of a plastered wall along the eastern edge of  
our excavation. We opened an extension of that area and were  
eventually able to expose the entire arch in situ with the plastered  
floor below, approximately 4 meters below the present ground surface.  
Dating is still pending but we are leaning toward Byzantine or Roman,  
and it is possible there is an earlier floor below. To have intact  
structures at this depth shows the amazing preservation levels that  
characterize the Mt Zion site.




6. Exposure of several well preserved 2nd Temple period vaulted  
chambers likely containing mikvot (ritual baths) and storage areas,  
similar to what was found by Avigad in the Jewish Quarter. After three  
weeks of hard work the extensive fill above one barely visible 2nd  
Temple period vaulted chamber has been removed, allowing access to the  
room above and its preserved walls, with the floors just centimeters  
below. Several chambers leading far below the visible structures are  
now visible and we have indications of multiple vaults under the  
debris and fill still to be removed. We anticipate going into these  
vaults and chambers before the end of this season, with the mysteries  
beyond awaiting us. Since these remains are better preserved than some  
of those in the Jewish Quarter (Burnt House and Wohl Museum), our  
anticipation at what might be found, remaining from the Roman  
destruction in 70 CE, is quite high.


In addition to these highlighted finds we have uncovered multiple  
coins, intact lamps, ceramic and glass vessels, bits of jewelry, and  
so forth as one might find in any excavation of ancient Jerusalem from  
this period.  We have also found two crosses from the Byzantine  
period. We also collect all bones, metal, and glass fragments, mosaic  
pieces, plus carbon and plaster samples for dating purposes.



Our dig schedule has been full with many visitors from the  
archaeological community stopping by to take a look at what we are  
finding as well as tourists and other groups who happen to come by. We  
have also had invited lectures for our students and staff from a  
distinguished roster of experts including Zvi Greenhut, Tina Wray,  
Rafi Lewis, Jodi Magness, Tsvika Tsuk, Boaz Zissu, and Joe Zias?as  
well as your very own Shimon Gibson and James Tabor.



Our dig was shortened from six to four weeks due to financial  
constraints but we are discussing possibly extending things into a  
fifth or sixth week, contingent on funding, since we are poised this  
fourth week just over the well-preserved remains from the 2nd Temple  
destruction of Jerusalem, with chambers, several tabun (bread ovens),  
and other features emerging.  It seems important to enter these  
chambers this season rather than waiting for a year. A skeleton team  
of volunteers is willing to stay on if we can manage to work this out.



Funding has been extraordinarily tight this season with North Carolina  
state funds frozen entirely and many donors feeling the pinch of the  
recession. In order to complete our season, plus a minimum of  
conservation and post-excavation work, The Foundation for Biblical  
Archaeology has inaugurated a Web fund drive in our behalf to raise  
$50,00 by July 15th. We are about 1/3 toward this goal. Gifts have  
ranged from $25 to $3000, with the average around $100. See (http://digmountzion.com/information/Donations.html 
)

I hope you will join this fund drive and pass on the word to others. I  
think by pulling together a few hundred of us can easily meet our goal.



James D. Tabor

Co-Director, Mt. Zion Excavation



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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul  7 15:11:06 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:11:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>

James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't
open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if
perhaps something is posted there.

 

Thanks,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  7 15:23:36 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:23:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
	<11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>

It is a simple PDF file. You have to have Acrobat reader but most  
everyone has that.

James


On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:

> James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but  
> couldn?t open any of the docs?anyone else having trouble?  Will go  
> to SWW to see if perhaps something is posted there.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
>
> A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail.  
> Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...
>
> Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation
>
> A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks?
>
> _______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul  7 15:55:47 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:55:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
	<11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
	<5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8991B7ACFE84AB5BB06DE90A152EF98@bettylaptop>

Thanks, James.  The files did not show up as a pdf,  but the right click did
it!  Fascinating stuff here!  Thanks so much for sending!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 3:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

It is a simple PDF file. You have to have Acrobat reader but most everyone
has that.

 

James

 

 

On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:





James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't
open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if
perhaps something is posted there.

 

Thanks,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 

_______________________________________________



 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 16:22:28 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:22:28 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] inviting a speaker from Mahigut Yehudit
In-Reply-To: <4A534256.5060300@mts.net>
References: <4A534256.5060300@mts.net>
Message-ID: <855590370907071422x7590dbb4t60e7cb4934610f8b@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Cornie,

    I just saw this and your other email (which I'll reply to separately);
I've been offline for a few days (last time that happened, I was in the
hospital; this time, just trying to pack..).  Well, your question, as I see
it, is multi-faceted.  *Assuming* everything that your friend wrote you is
correct, well, you just may be dealing with too small a Jewish community to
generate enough of a turnout;  Let alone, a large, active 'chapter' to
support Manhigut Yehudit on an ongoing basis.  THAT is one issue.

    The other issues are - should you be supporting Manhigut Yehudit?  And,
" It seems like there are many Jews who do not really support the land of
Israel movement..."

    Well, these are sort of apposite sides of each other - and it centers
around whether you should be using Canadian, or, American, or, for the sake
of ease, let's just call it the, "North American Jewish 'community'" as your
guide for what to support, or what not to.

    When you ask MY opinion, you should be aware that I'm the ' Don Quijote'
when it comes to these kind of things.  I will go after what I feel is
right, whatever the effort or personal cost, and continue, tenaciously.
What 'other people' - Jewish or not, believe is of little consequence to
me.  When I know I'm right, that's all that counts - to me.  I think
EVERYONE should support Manhigut Yehudit, and that Moshe Feiglin is one of
the GREAT Jewish leaders of our time.  However, *your* trying to support
their efforts and your (proposed) efforts to bring them to your part of
Canada are two different things.

    Now the issue of the Jewish community, and what they believe....well,
good luck trying to figure THAT one out!  Now, understand, I have been
trying to leave this country for most of my adult life, and am finally, with
G-d's help, going HOME in 62 days.  But the VAST majority of North American
Jews do NOT feel that way about Eretz Yisrael, and consider themselves
Americans, or Canadians.  DO they "generally" support the "Land of Israel
Movement?"  No, they do not, much to my chagrin....

    But, it is the Jewish community of Israel that counts - NOT what North
American Jews think....there is a rapidly growing movement in Israel, coming
from every corner of life, of people working to RESTORE the values of Torat
Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael - the Torah, Land and people of
Israel.  And Manhigut Yehudit is certainly doing that...

   Sorry that I've rambled on here, but let me just say - take your lead
from the Jewish community of the Land of Israel, not North America.

   May HaShem bless you for all you do Cornie, and all you'd LIKE to do!
:-)

   Be strong and have courage,
              *  Hanoch*




On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

>  Dear Hanoch
>
> I recently mentioned something about inviting a speaker from Manhigut
> Yehidut to speak in Winnipeg. I wrote to some of my closest friends in
> Winnipeg as follows below. According to there answer I don't know if it
> helps much to consider it any longer. But maybe i should not give up too
> soon.
>
> Maybe I am even on a wrong goose chase by supporting this movement. It
> seems like there are many Jews who do not really support the land of Israel
> movement, if i am putting it right. I know, or am aware that the majority is
> not always right.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Hi Bruce & Fern
> Long time no see!  Would like to hear from you again. It has been so good
> to be with you in times past. I have a question for you, just out of the
> blue. Well, I have pondered this for a while already, but would just wonder
> what you think of it. Or, what would you do about furthering such thoughts,
> like inviting some one from Manhigut Yehidut for a speaking cession in
> Winnipeg!!!
>
> Would people in Winnipeg be interested in "An update from Israel, the view
> of the people"? I am sure there would have to be an interest in sponsoring
> it as well. I would do my little that I can. But there would have to be
> others interested, and who would be much more capable to take care of
> matters.
>
> Hi, Cornie,
>
> We're just leaving on a trip, and will be gone for most of July, G-d
> willing.  I actually don't know if there are enough Jews in Winnipeg who
> would support the Feiglin platform.  Nor am I sure how one would begin to
> find out.  For sure, it would only be Orthodox Jews, of which there are not
> all that many.  And I am not sure I understand everyone's politics--there is
> a rift between haredim and religious Zionists that I don't understand.  I
> think Modern Orthodox are Zionist, but again I am not sure.  Chabad is about
> the land and people of Israel, but not necessarily the State of Israel.  It
> would take some doing, and I am definitely not enough of a mover and shaker
> to get it going.  But I could talk to a few people when we get back--likely
> around mid-August before I'd be ready--and see what I could find out.  Like
> you, I think they are really onto the right path.  Does your ex-teacher
> support them?  Gotta run, because we are in the middle of packing.  No
> internet service while we're gone, so I hope you can be in touch again in
> early August.  Till then, all the best, Cornie.  Fern Kettner
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Tue Jul  7 16:35:47 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:35:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
	<11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

I do not have an attachment???   Dick L
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty K Givin 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:11 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!


  James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if perhaps something is posted there.

   

  Thanks,

   

  Elisheva/Betty

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
  Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

   

  A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...

   

  Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

   

  A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul  7 16:46:25 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:46:25 -0500
Subject: FW: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
Message-ID: <20892F301D0C4199934E50C89D04A98F@bettylaptop>

Dick, if you will right click on the 4th one down, it will give you the pdf
report with the accompanying photos.  The others are individual pictures,
some opened for me and some did not.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 16:58:35 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:58:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Game over, or new beginning?
Message-ID: <855590370907071458r297bcc8bn82130530a3c2997@mail.gmail.com>

The article below was written by Rav Lazer Brody, and he shares some of his
very deep perspective of Emunah - faith in HaShem.  I thought people would
find it interesting and thought provoking.
                           * Hanoch*
 Game over, or new
beginning?<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/game_over_or_ne.html>

*Et tu, Bibi*? Now that Bibi is day by day progressively
capitulating<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443735607&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>to
Obama's demands, some are saying that the game's over. I disagree;
this
country doesn't depend on Bibi, thank G-d, but on G-d Himself. Everything
that Hashem does is for the absolute best. People now know that no side of
secular Zionism - whether Labor, Kadima, or Likud - can ever succeed. The
religious Zionist public should now be realizing - especially after Gush
Katif - that for years, they bet on the wrong horse. The activism won't do a
thing to save Judea, Samaria, or Jerusalem. Politicians can't stop Iran's
nuclear ambitions. Torah, teshuva, and prayer can. If you don't believe in
prayer, says my beloved teacher and spiritual guide Rav Shalom Arush, you
don't believe in Hashem.

Let's not wait for more tribulations to come together in a new unity,
rallying around emuna. The growing emuna alliance will flourish, G-d
willing, and lead the way to the final redemption of our people, our
homeland, and global peace.

We don't yet have the entire picture. As humans, with flesh-and-blood eyes
and brains, we don't understand everything that Hashem is doing, namely, why
300,000 Jews are now threatened with exile from their homes, G-d forbid. My
very special friend and beloved cousin, Rich Lener of New Jersey, sent me
the perfect consolation, a beautiful parable by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman of
blessed memory, who died a heroic marty's death in the Nazi holocaust.
Thanks for the following lovely thoughts, Rich:

*Once a man who knew nothing at all about agriculture came to a farmer and
asked to be taught about farming. The farmer took him to his field and asked
him what he saw. ?I see a beautiful piece of land, lush with grass, and
pleasing to the eye.? Then the visitor stood aghast while the farmer plowed
under the grass and turned the beautiful green field into a mass of shallow
brown ditches.*

*?Why did you ruin the field!? he demanded.*

*?Be patient. You will see,? said the farmer.*

*The farmer then showed his guest a sackful of plump kernels of wheat and
said, ?Tell me what you see.? The visitor described the nutritious, inviting
grain, and then, once more watched in shock as the farmer ruined something
beautiful. This time, he walked up and down the furrows and dropped kernels
into the open ground wherever he went. Then he covered the kernels with
clods of soil.*

*?Are you insane?? the man demanded. ?First you destroyed the field and then
you ruined the grain!?*

*?Be patient. You will see.?*

*Time went by, and once more the farmer took his guest out to the field. Now
they saw endless, straight rows of green stalks sprouting up from all the
furrows. The visitor smiled broadly.*

*?I apologize. Now I understand what you were doing. You made the field more
beautiful than ever. The art of farming is truly marvelous.?*

*?No,? said the farmer. ?We are not done. You must still be patient.?*

*More time went by and the stalks were fully grown. The farmer came with a
sickle and chopped them all down as his visitor watched open-mouthed, seeing
how the orderly field became an ugly scene of destruction. The farmer bound
the fallen stalks into bundles and decorated the field with them. Later, he
took the bundles to another area where he beat and crushed them until they
became a mass of* *straw and loose kernels. Then he separated the kernels
from the chaff and piled them up in a huge hill. Always he told his
protesting visitor, ?We are not done, you must be more patient.?*

*The farmer came with his wagon and piled it high with grain, which he took
to a mill. There, the beautiful grain was ground into formless, choking
dust. The visitor complained again. ?You have taken grain and transformed it
into dirt!? Again, he was told to be patient.*

*The farmer put the dust into sacks and took it back home. He took some dust
and mixed it with water while his guest marveled at the foolishness of
making ?whitish mud.? Then the farmer fashioned the ?mud? into the shape of
a loaf. The visitor saw the perfectly formed loaf and smiled broadly, but
his happiness did not last. The farmer kindled a fire in an oven and put the
loaf into it.*

*?Now I know you are insane. After all that work, you burn what you have
made.?*

*The farmer looked at him and laughed. ?Have I not told you to be patient??
**Finally, the farmer opened the oven and took out a freshly baked bread,
crisp and brown, with an aroma that made the visitor?s mouth water. **?Come,?
the farmer said. He led his guest to the kitchen table where he cut the
bread and offered his now-pleased visitor a liberally buttered slice. **?Now,?
the farmer said, ?now you understand.?*

*************

*Hashem is the Farmer and we are the uncomprehending visitors who do not
begin to understand His ways or the outcome of His plan. Only when the
process is complete and Redemption is a reality will the Jewish people know
why all that transpired during this long and bitter exile had to happen.
Until then, we must be patient and have faith that everything, even the
destructive and painful, is a part of a Divine process that will produce
ultimate goodness and beauty*
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Jul  8 17:42:23 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:42:23 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net><11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
	<005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <2C1023A03EF94A17A75D06C7188259A1@TESTPC>

Dick the PDF file is there; you have to scroll to the bottom of all of the
attachments.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:36 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

I do not have an attachment???   Dick L

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Betty K Givin <mailto:bkgivin at verizon.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:11 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't
open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if
perhaps something is posted there.

 

Thanks,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 


  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

_______________________________________________

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Jul  8 17:45:45 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:45:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net><11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
	<5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E25F7762DC694D9CB46329FF0911109A@TESTPC>

I received all the pics, text attachments and the PDF file.  Go to the right
hand side of the attachment block and scroll to the very bottom. Look
closely and you should find the PDF file. When opened you can read James
article of the great finds.

 

Marvin.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

It is a simple PDF file. You have to have Acrobat reader but most everyone
has that.

 

James

 

 

On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:





James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't
open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if
perhaps something is posted there.

 

Thanks,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 

_______________________________________________



 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 21:17:41 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:17:41 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] 	"The Noahide Message,
	the 4th of July&UniversalFreedom"]]]
Message-ID: <4A5401C5.9060403@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message, the 4th of July&UniversalFreedom"]]
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:26:41 -0400
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 21:17:04 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:17:04 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
Message-ID: <4A5401A0.1030904@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul  7 21:56:44 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:56:44 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] thanks Joe!]
Message-ID: <4A540AEC.1040109@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Marvin Hyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] thanks Joe!
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:32:29 -0400
Size: 5571
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul  7 23:01:41 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:01:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <E25F7762DC694D9CB46329FF0911109A@TESTPC>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net><11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
	<5C78BF1C-8A6F-4A68-A423-EDC5FEE6B342@earthlink.net>
	<E25F7762DC694D9CB46329FF0911109A@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <37D9E4ACAFA24CD69EAB8067AC6DBAC4@bettylaptop>

Found it earlier, Marvin, but thanks!  Great stuff!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 5:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

I received all the pics, text attachments and the PDF file.  Go to the right
hand side of the attachment block and scroll to the very bottom. Look
closely and you should find the PDF file. When opened you can read James
article of the great finds.

 

Marvin.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

It is a simple PDF file. You have to have Acrobat reader but most everyone
has that.

 

James

 

 

On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:

 

James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't
open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if
perhaps something is posted there.

 

Thanks,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please
view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 

_______________________________________________

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul  7 23:31:07 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:31:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Two Short Quotes for the Day!
Message-ID: <E5C488A8067C41808D60E681E20A14D9@bettylaptop>

Hanoch sent out a quote a few weeks back about dancing in the rain (scroll
down to see it).  I loved it, so I included it again with another one of my
favorites by Elizabeth Barrett Browing.  Two great ones.either to go to bed
by or wake up in the morning to..

 

Shavua tov on this the 4th day of Shabbat!.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

 

Earth's crammed with heaven,

And every common bush afire with G-d;

But only he who sees, takes off his shoes-

The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries.

 

Elizabeth Barret Browning

 

May HaShem open all our eyes that we may see!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Today's quote

 

I saw this quote on someone's email signature, and it spoke to me:

 

         "Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about
learning how
to dance in the rain."

 

                           Hanoch

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul  8 02:17:00 2009
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:17:00 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Game over, or new beginning?
In-Reply-To: <855590370907071458r297bcc8bn82130530a3c2997@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070820090717.3690.4A5447EB0008488500000E6A22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Thanks Hanoch,

This brought tears to my eyes.

--
Eliron/John. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


The article below was written by Rav Lazer Brody, and he shares some of his very deep perspective of Emunah - faith in HaShem.  I thought people would find it interesting and thought provoking.
                            Hanoch
Game over, or new beginning?
Et tu, Bibi? Now that Bibi is day by day progressively capitulating to Obama's demands, some are saying that the game's over. I disagree; this country doesn't depend on Bibi, thank G-d, but on G-d Himself. Everything that Hashem does is for the absolute best. People now know that no side of secular Zionism - whether Labor, Kadima, or Likud - can ever succeed. The religious Zionist public should now be realizing - especially after Gush Katif - that for years, they bet on the wrong horse. The activism won't do a thing to save Judea, Samaria, or Jerusalem. Politicians can't stop Iran's nuclear ambitions. Torah, teshuva, and prayer can. If you don't believe in prayer, says my beloved teacher and spiritual guide Rav Shalom Arush, you don't believe in Hashem.
Let's not wait for more tribulations to come together in a new unity, rallying around emuna. The growing emuna alliance will flourish, G-d willing, and lead the way to the final redemption of our people, our homeland, and global peace.
We don't yet have the entire picture. As humans, with flesh-and-blood eyes and brains, we don't understand everything that Hashem is doing, namely, why 300,000 Jews are now threatened with exile from their homes, G-d forbid. My very special friend and beloved cousin, Rich Lener of New Jersey, sent me the perfect consolation, a beautiful parable by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman of blessed memory, who died a heroic marty's death in the Nazi holocaust. Thanks for the following lovely thoughts, Rich:
Once a man who knew nothing at all about agriculture came to a farmer and asked to be taught about farming. The farmer took him to his field and asked him what he saw. ?I see a beautiful piece of land, lush with grass, and pleasing to the eye.? Then the visitor stood aghast while the farmer plowed under the grass and turned the beautiful green field into a mass of shallow brown ditches.
?Why did you ruin the field!? he demanded.
?Be patient. You will see,? said the farmer.
The farmer then showed his guest a sackful of plump kernels of wheat and said, ?Tell me what you see.? The visitor described the nutritious, inviting grain, and then, once more watched in shock as the farmer ruined something beautiful. This time, he walked up and down the furrows and dropped kernels into the open ground wherever he went. Then he covered the kernels with clods of soil.
?Are you insane?? the man demanded. ?First you destroyed the field and then you ruined the grain!?
?Be patient. You will see.?
Time went by, and once more the farmer took his guest out to the field. Now they saw endless, straight rows of green stalks sprouting up from all the furrows. The visitor smiled broadly.
?I apologize. Now I understand what you were doing. You made the field more beautiful than ever. The art of farming is truly marvelous.?
?No,? said the farmer. ?We are not done. You must still be patient.?
More time went by and the stalks were fully grown. The farmer came with a sickle and chopped them all down as his visitor watched open-mouthed, seeing how the orderly field became an ugly scene of destruction. The farmer bound the fallen stalks into bundles and decorated the field with them. Later, he took the bundles to another area where he beat and crushed them until they became a mass of straw and loose kernels. Then he separated the kernels from the chaff and piled them up in a huge hill. Always he told his protesting visitor, ?We are not done, you must be more patient.?
The farmer came with his wagon and piled it high with grain, which he took to a mill. There, the beautiful grain was ground into formless, choking dust. The visitor complained again. ?You have taken grain and transformed it into dirt!? Again, he was told to be patient.
The farmer put the dust into sacks and took it back home. He took some dust and mixed it with water while his guest marveled at the foolishness of making ?whitish mud.? Then the farmer fashioned the ?mud? into the shape of a loaf. The visitor saw the perfectly formed loaf and smiled broadly, but his happiness did not last. The farmer kindled a fire in an oven and put the loaf into it.
?Now I know you are insane. After all that work, you burn what you have made.?
The farmer looked at him and laughed. ?Have I not told you to be patient?? Finally, the farmer opened the oven and took out a freshly baked bread, crisp and brown, with an aroma that made the visitor?s mouth water. ?Come,? the farmer said. He led his guest to the kitchen table where he cut the bread and offered his now-pleased visitor a liberally buttered slice. ?Now,? the farmer said, ?now you understand.?
***********
Hashem is the Farmer and we are the uncomprehending visitors who do not begin to understand His ways or the outcome of His plan. Only when the process is complete and Redemption is a reality will the Jewish people know why all that transpired during this long and bitter exile had to happen. Until then, we must be patient and have faith that everything, even the destructive and painful, is a part of a Divine process that will produce ultimate goodness and beauty
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 09:28:35 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
	accepted in Israel
Message-ID: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a *connection *to the
Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very
tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the
entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will
be accepted in Israel).

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary
from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job
opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
                    * Hanoch*
**
*Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
*by Hillel Fendel [image: 60 Converts are Missionaries]

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to
Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries.

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
conversion rolls.

Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more
than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after
their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted
as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into
religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in
the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  8 09:36:34 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:36:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
In-Reply-To: <005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net>
	<11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop>
	<005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <9871997F-A810-4D39-ADED-9903B69E98E7@earthlink.net>

It was sent, it came through, the only thing I can think of is  
something at your end, maybe security or whatever, strips the  
attachments. You can go to the
Web site/Blog and get it that way: jamestabor.com/blog

Best,

James


On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Dick L wrote:

> I do not have an attachment???   Dick L
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Betty K Givin
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
>
> James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but  
> couldn?t open any of the docs?anyone else having trouble?  Will go  
> to SWW to see if perhaps something is posted there.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
>
> A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail.  
> Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...
>
> Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation
>
> A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 11:31:54 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:31:54 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 'He Doesn't Get it'
Message-ID: <855590370907080931p5134301fic89eedc020fdfba7@mail.gmail.com>

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Dershowitz, and I cannot stand discussing
American politics.  But I thought this was well worth reading...
                *  Hanoch*
**
   He doesn't get it
 <http://www.spectator.co.uk/search/author/?searchString=>
Friday, 3rd July 2009


The American lawyer Alan Dershowitz is one of the most prolific,
high-profile and indefatiguable defenders of Israel and the Jewish people
against the tidal wave of anti-Israel and anti-Jewish feeling currently
coursing through the west. So a piece by him in the Wall Street
Journal<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124649366875483207.html>giving
expression to the rising anxiety being felt about Obama by American
Jews naturally arouses great interest.

But just like the majority of American Jews, getting on for 80 per cent of
whom voted for Obama, he is a Democrat supporter who is incapable of
acknowledging the truth about this President. For most American Jews, the
horror of even entertaining the hypothetical possibility that they might
ever in a million years have to vote for a Republican is so great they
simply cannot see what is staring them in the face -- that this Democratic
President is lethal for both Israel and the free world. And in this article
Dershowitz shows that he too is just as blind.

Acknowledging the anxiety among some American Jews about Obama?s attitude to
Israel, Dershowitz concludes uneasily that there isn?t really a problem here
because all Obama is doing is putting pressure on Israel over the
settlements, which most American Jews don?t support anyway. But this is
totally to miss the point. The pressure over the settlements *per se* is not
the reason for the intense concern.

It is instead, first and foremost, the fact that Obama is treating Israel as
if *it* is the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Obama thus inverts
aggressor and victim, denying Israel?s six-decade long victimisation and
airbrushing out Arab aggression. The question remains: why has Obama chosen
to pick a fight with Israel while soft-soaping Iran which is threatening it
with genocide? The answer is obvious: Israel is to be used to buy off Iran
just as Czechoslovakia was used at Munich. Indeed, I would say this is worse
even than that, since I suspect that Obama ? coming as he does from a
radical leftist milieu, with vicious Israel-haters amongst his closest
friends -- would be doing this to Israel even if Iran was not the problem
that it is.

In any event, the double standard is egregious. Obama has torn up his
previous understandings with Israel over the settlements while putting no
pressure at all on the Palestinians, even though since they are the regional
aggressor there can be no peace unless they end their aggression and
certainly not until they accept Israel as a Jewish state, which they have
said explicitly they will never do. On this, Obama is totally silent. So too
is Dershowitz. That?s some omission.

Next, Obama is pressuring Israel to set up a Palestine state ? within two
years this will exist, swaggers Rahm Emanuel. But everyone knows that as
soon as Israel leaves the West Bank, Hamas ? or even worse ? will take over.
The only reason the (also appalling) Abbas is still in Ramallah, enabling
Obama to pretend there is a Palestinian interlocutor for peace, is because
the Israelis are keeping Hamas at bay. Yet Dershowitz writes:

There is no evidence of any weakening of American support for Israel's right
to defend its children from the kind of rocket attacks candidate Obama
commented on during his visit to Sderot.

So what exactly does he think would happen if Israel came out of the West
Bank and the Hamas rockets were down the road from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv
(literally: many in the west have absolutely no idea how tiny Israel is).
It?s not a question of Israel?s ?right to defend its children?. If Obama has
his way, Israel would not *be able* to defend its children or anyone else,
because Obama would have removed its defences by putting its enemies in
charge of them. It is astounding that Dershowitz can?t see this.

Then there was Obama?s appalling Cairo speech -- which I wrote about
here<http://www.spectator.co.uk/3670626/obama-in-cairo.thtml>? in
which he  conspicuously refrained from committing himself to defending
Zionism and the Jewish people from the attacks and incitement to genocide
against them, but committed himself instead to defending their attackers
against ?negative stereotyping?. On this, Dershowitz has nothing to say.

Worse still, by falsely asserting that the Jewish aspiration for Israel
derived from the Holocaust, Obama effectively denied that the Jewish people
were in Israel as of right and thus endorsed the core element of the Arab
and Muslim propaganda of war and extermination. On this, Dershowitz has
nothing to say.

Obama drew a vile ? and telling ? equivalence between the Nazi extermination
camps and the Palestinian ?refugee? camps. On this, Dershowitz has nothing
to say. Obama's statement that the Palestinians ?have suffered in pursuit of
a homeland? was grossly and historically untrue, and again denied Arab
aggression. On this, Dershowitz has nothing to say.  Equally vilely, Obama
equated genocidal terrorism by the Palestinians with the civil rights
movement in America and the resistance against apartheid in South Africa. On
all of this, Dershowitz has nothing to say.

Dershowitz also grossly underplays the terrible harm Obama is doing to the
security not just of Israel but the world through his reckless appeasement
of Iran. In the last few weeks, this has actively undercut the Iranian
democrats trying to oust their tyrannical regime, and has actually
*strengthened
*that regime. All the evidence suggests ever more strongly that Obama has
decided America will ?live with? a nuclear Iran, *whatever it does to its
own people. *Which leaves Israel hung out to dry.

But even here, where he is clearly most concerned, Dershowitz scuttles under
his comfort blanket ? Dennis Ross, who was originally supposed to have been
the US special envoy to Iran but was recently announced senior director of
the National Security Council and special assistant to the President for the
region. It is not at all clear whether this ambiguous development represents
a promotion or demotion for Ross. Either way, for Dershowitz to rest his
optimism that Obama?s Iran policy will be all right on the night entirely
upon the figure of Dennis Ross is pathetic. Ross, a Jew who played Mr Nice
to Robert Malley?s Mr Nasty towards Israel in the Camp David debacle under
President Clinton, is clearly being used by Obama as a human shield behind
which he can bully Israel with impunity.  American Jews assume that his
proximity to Obama means the President?s intentions towards Israel are
benign. Dazzled by this vision of Ross as the guarantor of Obama?s good
faith, they thus ignore altogether the terrible import of the actual words
coming out of the President?s mouth.

The fact is that many American Jews are so ignorant of the history of the
Jewish people, the centrality of Israel in its history and the legality and
justice of its position that they probably saw nothing wrong in Obama saying
that the Jewish aspiration for Israel came out of the Holocaust *because
they think this too. *Nor do they see the appalling double standard in the
bullying of Israel over the settlements and what that tells us about Obama?s
attitude towards Israel, because ? as Dershowitz himself makes all too plain
-- they too think in much the same way, that the settlements are the
principal obstacle to peace.

Many if not most American Jews have a highly sentimentalised view of Israel.
They never go there, are deeply ignorant of its history and current
realities, and are infinitely more concerned with their own view of
themselves as social liberals, a view reflected back at themselves through
voting for a Democrat President.

Whatever else he is, however, Dershowitz is certainly not ignorant. Which
makes this lamentable article all the more revealing, and depressing.
 The Spectator, 22 Old Queen Street, London, SW1H 9HP. All Articles and
Content Copyright ?2007 by The Spectator (1828) Lt
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From webhulon at msn.com  Wed Jul  8 12:21:11 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:21:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
	accepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>


  The thought of folks, christian or otherwise, pretending to be Jews in order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.  Maybe in their own minds and hearts they have "pure motives," but that is beside the point. 

 

I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone that I'm not. I suppose this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.  I'm not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the whole process a black eye.

 

I would love to live in Yisrael.  I have a spot picked out. I think about it, pray about it and work toward it EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend to be someone else in order to do it.  And I'm someone who would never do the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.

 

When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon us. Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare for that time.  Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of Ephraim will search out their brothers.  Of course I don't want the missionaries in our community either!

 

 

I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because you shouldn't go down that road.  At the very least the road blocks should make us examine our path.

 

Web


Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted in Israel


Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:
 
1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).  
 
The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
                     Hanoch
 
Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel  

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.

Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 

_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. 
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Jul  8 14:32:19 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:32:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult for
	Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9F76099A43BE498FA33131F6C83D6B69@bettylaptop>

Thank you for this eye-opening yet grievously abhorrent article, Hanoch and
also your response, Web.  This turns my stomach as well and grieves me to
the point of tears!  Pure motives or not, this is just wrong!  As one of the
"honest converts" of nearly 16 years, I have never even for a split second
entertained the idea of being a missionary nor would I ever even conceive of
the possibility of my doing so, as it is so against my Torah belief system;
yet it looks like I may be lumped along with the deceptive ones by the
rabbis in Israel.  It does give all of us a black eye.  I can certainly
understand the rabbinical point of view here.

 

Our plans after our conversion in 1993 were to sell our house and make
aliyah to Israel.  Well, instead of selling, our house flooded.  Since the
sale of the house was our means for aliyah, our plans were daunted.  Talk
about a road block!  This was a big one!  We have still not made it, and for
some reason, the road block is still there.just in a different form. but it
doesn't mean that aliyah is not still our heart's desire.  We cannot afford
to let go of our dreams.any of us.

 

Very wise words, Web.especially about the road block.

 

Thanks and Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:21 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

  The thought of folks, christian or otherwise, pretending to be Jews in
order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.  Maybe in their
own minds and hearts they have "pure motives," but that is beside the point.

 
I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone that I'm not. I suppose
this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper
season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.  I'm
not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the
whole process a black eye.
 
I would love to live in Yisrael.  I have a spot picked out. I think about
it, pray about it and work toward it EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend
to be someone else in order to do it.  And I'm someone who would never do
the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.
 
When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon us.
Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare for
that time.  Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of Ephraim
will search out their brothers.  Of course I don't want the missionaries in
our community either!
 
 
I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because
you shouldn't go down that road.  At the very least the road blocks should
make us examine our path.
 
Web

  _____  

Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
accepted in Israel

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the
Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

 

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very
tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the
entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will
be accepted in Israel).  

 

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary
from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job
opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....

                     Hanoch

 

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel  60 Converts are Missionaries
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/resized/136-106/35/35820.
jpg> 

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to
Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus - and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
anti-assimilation Yad L'Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
"shocked" at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
conversion rolls.

Yad L'Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more
than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after
their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted
as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into
religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the
legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 

 

  _____  

Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR. See how.
<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutor
ial_QuickAdd_062009> 

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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul  8 15:18:42 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:18:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] inviting a speaker from Mahigut Yehudit
In-Reply-To: <855590370907071422x7590dbb4t60e7cb4934610f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A534256.5060300@mts.net>
	<855590370907071422x7590dbb4t60e7cb4934610f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A54FF22.3050807@mts.net>

Hanoch and all

I'm sorry for blurting out about my going to the NYC conference 
concerning Manhigut Yehudit before thinking twice, of which I was quite 
excited, but realize that in order for me to be justified to go there I 
should be representing  a large group supporting  them which is not 
really the case. I would likely not make them any difference there if I 
went or not. Yes, my heart and prayer is for them .

But I think I will stay home and rather spend time on  a new book I am 
writing. Rather, typing out a diary and adding as I go along. The Title 
is: "Is Bipolar a blessing or a curse? Hashem is doing everything for 
the good". Jamie has been helping me with this project. Since his dad 
and grandma (my dear wife) are bipolar, and since my coming out of 
Christianity, and waking up from my sleep of boxed in religion is all a 
part and parcel of bipolar, it actually becomes interesting. I had left 
this diary written between 15 - 20 years ago on the shelf for all of 
these years, because of  being ashamed of and not wanting to expose 
symptoms of bipolar in the family. But I am persuaded in the end 
something good will come out of it. I may keep it in the family, but 
will see how it turns out.

Cornie 


Hanoch Young wrote:
> Shalom Cornie,
>  
>     I just saw this and your other email (which I'll reply to 
> separately); I've been offline for a few days (last time that 
> happened, I was in the hospital; this time, just trying to pack..).  
> Well, your question, as I see it, is multi-faceted.  /Assuming/ 
> everything that your friend wrote you is correct, well, you just may 
> be dealing with too small a Jewish community to generate enough of a 
> turnout;  Let alone, a large, active 'chapter' to support Manhigut 
> Yehudit on an ongoing basis.  THAT is one issue.
>  
>     The other issues are - should you be supporting Manhigut Yehudit?  
> And, " It seems like there are many Jews who do not really support the 
> land of Israel movement..."
>  
>     Well, these are sort of apposite sides of each other - and it 
> centers around whether you should be using Canadian, or, American, or, 
> for the sake of ease, let's just call it the, "North American Jewish 
> 'community'" as your guide for what to support, or what not to. 
>  
>     When you ask MY opinion, you should be aware that I'm the ' Don 
> Quijote' when it comes to these kind of things.  I will go after what 
> I feel is right, whatever the effort or personal cost, and continue, 
> tenaciously.  What 'other people' - Jewish or not, believe is of 
> little consequence to me.  When I know I'm right, that's all that 
> counts - to me.  I think EVERYONE should support Manhigut Yehudit, and 
> that Moshe Feiglin is one of the GREAT Jewish leaders of our time.  
> However, /your/ trying to support their efforts and your (proposed) 
> efforts to bring them to your part of Canada are two different things. 
>  
>     Now the issue of the Jewish community, and what they 
> believe....well, good luck trying to figure THAT one out!  Now, 
> understand, I have been trying to leave this country for most of my 
> adult life, and am finally, with G-d's help, going HOME in 62 days.  
> But the VAST majority of North American Jews do NOT feel that way 
> about Eretz Yisrael, and consider themselves Americans, or Canadians.  
> DO they "generally" support the "Land of Israel Movement?"  No, they 
> do not, much to my chagrin....
>  
>     But, it is the Jewish community of Israel that counts - NOT what 
> North American Jews think....there is a rapidly growing movement in 
> Israel, coming from every corner of life, of people working to RESTORE 
> the values of Torat Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael - the Torah, 
> Land and people of Israel.  And Manhigut Yehudit is certainly doing 
> that...
>  
>    Sorry that I've rambled on here, but let me just say - take your 
> lead from the Jewish community of the Land of Israel, not North America. 
>  
>    May HaShem bless you for all you do Cornie, and all you'd LIKE to 
> do!  :-)
>  
>    Be strong and have courage,
>               */  Hanoch/*
>  
>  
>    
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net 
> <mailto:cormary at mts.net>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Hanoch
>
>     I recently mentioned something about inviting a speaker from
>     Manhigut Yehidut to speak in Winnipeg. I wrote to some of my
>     closest friends in Winnipeg as follows below. According to there
>     answer I don't know if it helps much to consider it any longer.
>     But maybe i should not give up too soon.
>
>     Maybe I am even on a wrong goose chase by supporting this
>     movement. It seems like there are many Jews who do not really
>     support the land of Israel movement, if i am putting it right. I
>     know, or am aware that the majority is not always right.
>
>     Cornie
>
>
>
>     Hi Bruce & Fern
>     Long time no see!  Would like to hear from you again. It has been
>     so good to be with you in times past. I have a question for you,
>     just out of the blue. Well, I have pondered this for a while
>     already, but would just wonder what you think of it. Or, what
>     would you do about furthering such thoughts, like inviting some
>     one from Manhigut Yehidut for a speaking cession in Winnipeg!!!
>
>     Would people in Winnipeg be interested in "An update from Israel,
>     the view of the people"? I am sure there would have to be an
>     interest in sponsoring it as well. I would do my little that I
>     can. But there would have to be others interested, and who would
>     be much more capable to take care of matters.
>
>     Hi, Cornie,
>      
>     We're just leaving on a trip, and will be gone for most of July,
>     G-d willing.  I actually don't know if there are enough Jews in
>     Winnipeg who would support the Feiglin platform.  Nor am I sure
>     how one would begin to find out.  For sure, it would only be
>     Orthodox Jews, of which there are not all that many.  And I am not
>     sure I understand everyone's politics--there is a rift between
>     haredim and religious Zionists that I don't understand.  I think
>     Modern Orthodox are Zionist, but again I am not sure.  Chabad is
>     about the land and people of Israel, but not necessarily the State
>     of Israel.  It would take some doing, and I am definitely not
>     enough of a mover and shaker to get it going.  But I could talk to
>     a few people when we get back--likely around mid-August before I'd
>     be ready--and see what I could find out.  Like you, I think they
>     are really onto the right path.  Does your ex-teacher support
>     them?  Gotta run, because we are in the middle of packing.  No
>     internet service while we're gone, so I hope you can be in touch
>     again in early August.  Till then, all the best, Cornie.  Fern Kettner
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.7/2222 - Release Date: 07/07/09 05:53:00
>
>   

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 16:03:01 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:03:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Message from Steve Mathe
Message-ID: <855590370907081403u5147ef72rc8d3cbe3aa5979f5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks -

    I'm passing on word that Steve has been dealing with a major computer
crash, and has been unable to get online for a while.  He anticipates that
it might be as long as another week before he's able to resume contact.
                              *  Hanoch*
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Jul  8 17:21:09 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:21:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Message from Steve Mathe
In-Reply-To: <855590370907081403u5147ef72rc8d3cbe3aa5979f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907081403u5147ef72rc8d3cbe3aa5979f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE966CD557C24347802ABBAB73260A3E@bettylaptop>

Thanks, for letting us know about Steve. Hopefully this will be something
that can be rectified without too much hassle and he will be up and running
again before too long.  May it be sooner rather than longer than a week!
Even though my correspondence has been sporadic, I have noticed his absence
and have missed him and his thought provoking "poking" posts!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Message from Steve Mathe

 

Hi folks - 

 

    I'm passing on word that Steve has been dealing with a major computer
crash, and has been unable to get online for a while.  He anticipates that
it might be as long as another week before he's able to resume contact.  

                                Hanoch

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  8 17:22:46 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:22:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Message from Steve Mathe
In-Reply-To: <855590370907081403u5147ef72rc8d3cbe3aa5979f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907081403u5147ef72rc8d3cbe3aa5979f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS7B9A07B27F1F61DCDC082BA290@phx.gbl>

Seems like computer problems are going around!  I was without a computer for a couple of weeks.  Marvin has had trouble, and now so has Steve.

Will be so glad when he is up and running again!!!

Avigail/Pat  


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 5:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Message from Steve Mathe


Hi folks - 

    I'm passing on word that Steve has been dealing with a major computer crash, and has been unable to get online for a while.  He anticipates that it might be as long as another week before he's able to resume contact.  
                                Hanoch


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Wed Jul  8 17:42:29 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:42:29 -0400
Subject: Fw: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
Message-ID: <001d01ca001d$62d358b0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

Betty ! Your reply came with attachments. My original did not????? Thanks  !!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Betty K Givin 
To: 'Dick L' 
Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:46 PM
Subject: FW: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!


Dick, if you will right click on the 4th one down, it will give you the pdf report with the accompanying photos.  The others are individual pictures, some opened for me and some did not.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

 

A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...

 

Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

 

A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

 
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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  8 17:42:53 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (gets52000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult for
	Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel
Message-ID: <216046.10009.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Maybe I do not see it but how many people do you know that convert to Judiasm for the reason of missionizing? Missionary has different meanings but the most widely held meaning is one whose?mission is to convert someone to Christianity with the FOUNDATIONAL truth that unless one believes that Jesus is the Messiah and in his death , burial and ressurection they are lost. ( Christianity's doctrine) The Written Torah let alone the Oral Torah is irrelevant and for some abhorrent. This is a highly charged emotional thing for most Christians. When I was in Minnesota this past month taking care of my mom I was served pork in any form imaginable. I would never volunteer or preach as to why I wasn't eating the pork. If asked which was always I would simply say that I chose not to because I feel that Hashem asked me not to. Everyone took this as a personal offense and became very defensive. If I would have said I was allergic or just didn't like pork ok but I was
 challenging a foundational doctrine of their faith.
It is hard for me to imagine that many would embrace learning and following the Torah and converting as a means to missionize. There?are always a few bad apples but I would guess this number to be very small.
?
Susie

--- On Wed, 7/8/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 12:32 PM








Thank you for this eye-opening yet grievously abhorrent article, Hanoch and also your response, Web.? This turns my stomach as well and grieves me to the point of tears! ?Pure motives or not, this is just wrong!? As one of the ?honest converts? of nearly 16 years, I have never even for a split second entertained the idea of being a missionary nor would I ever even conceive of the possibility of my doing so, as it is so against my Torah belief system; yet it looks like I may be lumped along with the deceptive ones by the rabbis in Israel.? It does give all of us a black eye.? I can certainly understand the rabbinical point of view here.
?
Our plans after our conversion in 1993 were to sell our house and make aliyah to Israel .? Well, instead of selling, our house flooded.? Since the sale of the house was our means for aliyah, our plans were daunted.? Talk about a road block!? This was a big one!? We have still not made it, and for some reason, the road block is still there?just in a different form? but it doesn?t mean that aliyah is not still our heart?s desire.? We cannot afford to let go of our dreams?any of us? 
? 
Very wise words, Web?especially about the road block. 
? 
Thanks and Shalom, 
? 

Elisheva/Betty
? 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:21 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel
? 
? The thought of folks, christian or otherwise,?pretending to be Jews in order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.? Maybe in their own minds and hearts?they have "pure motives," but that is beside the point.?
?
I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone?that I'm not. I suppose this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.? I'm not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the whole process a black eye.
?
I would love to live in Yisrael.? I have a spot picked out. I think about it, pray about it and work?toward it?EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend to be someone else in order to do it.? And I'm someone who would?never do the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.
?
When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon us.?Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare for that time.? Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of Ephraim will search out their brothers.? Of course I don't want the missionaries in our community either!
?
?
I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because you shouldn't go down that road.? At the very least?the road blocks?should make us examine our path.
?
Web 



Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted in Israel 

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the Hebrew people.? See the article below, and you'll see two things:

?

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).? 

?

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts.? Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here!? I will be their worst nightmare....

???????????????????? Hanoch

?

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel 

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.

Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of?more than?60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel , amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them?out while?resulting in the?legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 
? 



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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  8 17:56:40 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:56:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult
	forEphramites to beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <9F76099A43BE498FA33131F6C83D6B69@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>
	<9F76099A43BE498FA33131F6C83D6B69@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS12A87FC920D7804BCF9917BA290@phx.gbl>

It's sickening to think of the lying missionaries masquerading as Jews both here and in the Land.  I've run across them a number of times over the years.  Though I haven't actually seen one in the act of trying to convert a Jew, I have always shunned them as soon as I figure out what they are about.  I have said nothing, mostly because I didn't know what to say or who to say it to, but it vexes my soul to come across one.  As people, they may be nice enough, but when viewed as the deceitful, idol-pushing threat they pose to Israel, they are truly despicable. 

"Good intentions" does NOT cut it!  These people are LIARS and proud of themselves for what they do.  Their supposed "conversion" is nothing but a convenient way to get into the Land and steal Jewish heritage.

While they have no trouble identifying me for what I am, and I have no trouble identifying them for what they are, it seems that only the Rabbis are having trouble telling us apart!  

Avigail


From: Betty K Givin 
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 3:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult forEphramites to beaccepted in Israel


Thank you for this eye-opening yet grievously abhorrent article, Hanoch and also your response, Web.  This turns my stomach as well and grieves me to the point of tears!  Pure motives or not, this is just wrong!  As one of the "honest converts" of nearly 16 years, I have never even for a split second entertained the idea of being a missionary nor would I ever even conceive of the possibility of my doing so, as it is so against my Torah belief system; yet it looks like I may be lumped along with the deceptive ones by the rabbis in Israel.  It does give all of us a black eye.  I can certainly understand the rabbinical point of view here.

 

Our plans after our conversion in 1993 were to sell our house and make aliyah to Israel.  Well, instead of selling, our house flooded.  Since the sale of the house was our means for aliyah, our plans were daunted.  Talk about a road block!  This was a big one!  We have still not made it, and for some reason, the road block is still there.just in a different form. but it doesn't mean that aliyah is not still our heart's desire.  We cannot afford to let go of our dreams.any of us.

 

Very wise words, Web.especially about the road block.

 

Thanks and Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:21 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel

 

  The thought of folks, christian or otherwise, pretending to be Jews in order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.  Maybe in their own minds and hearts they have "pure motives," but that is beside the point. 
 
I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone that I'm not. I suppose this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.  I'm not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the whole process a black eye.
 
I would love to live in Yisrael.  I have a spot picked out. I think about it, pray about it and work toward it EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend to be someone else in order to do it.  And I'm someone who would never do the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.
 
When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon us. Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare for that time.  Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of Ephraim will search out their brothers.  Of course I don't want the missionaries in our community either!
 
 
I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because you shouldn't go down that road.  At the very least the road blocks should make us examine our path.
 
Web


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted in Israel

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

 

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).  

 

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....

                     Hanoch

 

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel 

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus - and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L'Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly "shocked" at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.

Yad L'Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 

 


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 18:20:08 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:20:08 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 'A place where Israel is loved'
Message-ID: <855590370907081620m64794c11uc83439616900c818@mail.gmail.com>

When there's happy news to report, I love to share it.....
                         *  Hanoch*
 Fundamentally Freund    -   Blog <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/>
IsraelNationalNews.com

                              *by  Michael Freund*

 Tammuz 12, 5769, 7/4/2009
Finland - A Place Where Israel is Loved

I couldn't help but marvel at the fact that after centuries in which
Europeans often vied with one another to get rid of Jews, here were Finns
competing for the right to host them.
Europe is beset by rising anti-Semitism and anti-Israel sentiment. Yet in
the far north of the continent, there is one country - Finland - where that
seems to be the exception.
As I discovered on a recent lecture tour throughout the country, there is a
remarkable level of support for the Jewish state, one that cuts across
religious and regional boundaries.

And as I note in the column below, it is refreshing to see that there is a
place in Europe where Israel is truly loved. So much of our focus is on our
foes and those who hate us, that we often don't pay enough attention to our
friends.

This needs to change, and Israel and world Jewry must do more to cultivate
relations with Helsinki, where the ground is fertile for deepening the bonds
of friendship between the two countries.

*A Place Where Israel is Loved*

By Michael Freund

Tucked away in a far corner of northern Europe, the tranquil and resourceful
nation of Finland often gets unjustly overlooked. Flanked by a swaggering
and increasingly quarrelsome Russia to the east and its larger and blonder
Swedish neighbor to the west, the Finns seem to receive neither the
attention nor the consideration that they rightly deserve.

Indeed, despite being beset by harsh winters and a dearth of arable land, as
well as enjoying the dubious distinction of being the European Union's most
sparsely populated country, Finland has nonetheless built one of the most
pleasant and peaceful societies on the entire continent.

There is little crime and virtually no political corruption, and public
places are spotlessly clean, bordering on the pristine. It is akin in many
ways to Switzerland, except that the Finns are nice.

But there is something else that distinguishes Finland, setting it apart
from much of the rest of contemporary Europe, and that is the deep-seated
love and admiration for Israel that exists among large sectors of the
public.

On a recent trip to the country, which included a lecture tour in six towns
and cities, I found what can only be described as a remarkable level of
support for the Jewish state, one that cuts across religious and regional
boundaries. From the capital of Helsinki to Tampere, Finland's third largest
city, to the small town of Ikaalinen in the western part of the country,
hundreds of non-Jews in each locale came out to demonstrate their
solidarity.

There are churches where the Israeli flag is proudly displayed side-by-side
with the Finnish national colors, and where entire Christian congregations
recite "Hatikva" first in Hebrew and then in Finnish.

Literally dozens of Finns approached me to recount how proud they were to
have spent periods of time volunteering in Israel at schools and in
hospitals or on kibbutzim. They voiced great concern over Iran and its
nuclear ambitions, and many pray for Israel and its welfare daily.

In Helsinki, Pastor Seppo Seppala approached me and, much to my surprise,
engaged me in conversation in fluent Hebrew. He has been to Israel dozens of
times, and continues to bring groups of Finnish tourists. And he is not
alone. Without exception, after every speech I gave, there were always
several non-Jews who came up to me and addressed me in Hebrew. Many take
part in weekly private Hebrew classes, taught by fellow non-Jews, simply out
of a love for the language and the people of Israel.

PARTICULARLY NOTEWORTHY is the fact that Finnish Christian support for the
Jewish state is not the province of any one particular denomination, but
rather it includes such diverse groups as Baptists, Pentecostals and
Lutherans. However much they might disagree over theological or doctrinal
issues, when it comes to Israel they stand united.

This was most evident at a day-long meeting I attended on June 14 in
Heinola, a town in the south-central part of the country. Organized by the
dynamic Finnish branch of the International Christian Embassy-Jerusalem
(ICEJ) under the leadership of Juha Ketola, it brought together dozens of
pro-Israel community leaders from across the country to discuss efforts to
promote and support aliya.

For the past two decades, the Finns have been actively involved in helping
Jews from the former Soviet Union to move to Israel, and Helsinki served as
a gateway to Zion after the fall of communism.

On March 10, 1990, the indefatigable Kaarlo and Ulla Jarvilehto, a former
member of the Finnish parliament who headed the ICEJ Finland branch at the
time, teamed up with the Jewish Agency to help the first Soviet Jewish
family go through Helsinki on its way to Tel Aviv. Since then, the Finns
have sponsored the aliya of well over 17,000 Russian Jews.

As I sat and listened to the proceedings with the aid of a translator, an
extraordinary exchange unfolded. The representatives discussed contingency
plans in case there was a crisis and large numbers of Jews had to leave for
Israel via Finland at a moment's notice. They then began to argue with one
another - politely, of course - over which Finnish towns or cities would
welcome the Jews, with each one wanting to make sure that his or her
community was not left out.

I couldn't help but marvel at the fact that after centuries in which
Europeans often vied with one another to get rid of Jews, here were Finns
competing for the right to host them.

What accounts for this phenomenon? To some extent, it is based on certain
parallels between Finland and Israel, both of which are small countries
which had to fight for independence and whose historically ravenous
neighbors have occasionally coveted their land. But in many instances, it is
because Finnish Christians feel a profound religious and spiritual
obligation to champion Israel due to God's promise to Abraham that "I will
bless those who bless you" (Genesis 12:3).

OF COURSE, not all is rosy in Finland. In January, for example, the Finnish
Green League's paper Vihrea Lanka published a cartoon strip in which the
Star of David was compared to a swastika. The paper's editor offered a
peculiar justification for the caricature, asserting that "it is quite
clearly the flag of Israel featured in the strip and not just any Star of
David," as if that somehow makes it OK.

And the general Finnish media, like much of the mainstream press throughout
Western Europe, is often biased and slanted in its coverage of the Middle
East.

Nonetheless, it is refreshing to see that there is a place in Europe where
Israel is truly loved. So much of our focus is on our foes and those who
hate us, that we often don't pay enough attention to our friends.

This needs to change, and Israel and world Jewry must do more to cultivate
relations with Helsinki, where the ground is fertile for deepening the bonds
of friendship between the two countries. For at a time when anti-Semitism
and anti-Israel sentiment are on the rise, it is comforting to know that in
at least one corner of Europe, there are countless thousands of good and
decent people with a warm place in their hearts for the Jewish state.

--- from the July 1 *Jerusalem Post*
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 20:34:54 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 21:34:54 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "Islamic Invasion of America: The 20 Point Plan"
Message-ID: <855590370907081834y4c1b5504xf2865696a0865d9@mail.gmail.com>

Nothing to add....this says it all...
                 *  Hanoch*
**
*Islamic invasion of America: The 20 Point Plan*

Muslim Brotherhood - Jul 01, 2009
Atlas shrugs


This sums up the Muslim Brotherhood project in America quite succinctly. On
November 7, 2001, international law enforcement authorities and Western
intelligence agencies discovered a twenty-year old document revealing a
top-secret plan developed by the oldest Islamist organization with one of
the most extensive terror networks in the world to launch a program of
?cultural invasion? and eventual conquest of the West that virtually mirrors
the tactics used by Islamists for more than two decades.

Since that time information about this document, known in counterterrorism
circles as ?The Project?, and discussion regarding its content has been
limited to the top-secret world of Western intelligence communities. Only
through the work of an intrepid Swiss journalist, Sylvain Besson of Le
Temps, and his book published in October 2005 in France, La conqu?te de
l`Occident: Le projet secret des Islamistes (The Conquest of the West: The
Islamists` Secret Project), has information regarding The Project finally
been made public. One Western official cited by Besson has described The
Project as ?a totalitarian ideology of infiltration which represents, in the
end, the greatest danger for European societies.?

[...]

Included in the documents seized during the raid of Nada?s Swiss villa was a
14-page plan written in Arabic and dated December 1, 1982, which outlines a
12-point strategy to ?establish an Islamic government on earth? ? identified
as The Project. According to testimony given to Swiss authorities by Nada,
the unsigned document was prepared by ?Islamic researchers? associated with
the Muslim Brotherhood.

If you want to read more of the Muslim Brotherhood project, go here.

U.S. Arab-American author outlines secret 20-year strategy to undermine
country WND(hat tip Diane)
A refugee from the Muslim Middle East thinks he has discovered Islam`s
20-point plan for conquering the United States by 2020

Anis Shorrosh, author of ``Islam Revealed`` and ``The True Furqan,`` is a
Christian Arab-American who emigrated from Arab-controlled Jerusalem in
January 1967.

``The following is my analysis of Islamic invasion of America, the agenda of
Islamists and visible methods to take over America by the year 2020,``
Shorrosh says. ``Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as
they did when we were attacked on 9/11?``

1. Terminate America`s freedom of speech by replacing it with statewide and
nationwide hate-crime bills.

2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse
Jackson and other visible religious personalities who promote Islam as the
religion of African-Americans while insisting Christianity is for whites
only. What they fail to tell African-Americans is that it was Arab Muslims
who captured them and sold them as slaves. In fact, the Arabic word for
black and slave is the same, ``Abed.``

3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in
colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on
the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like
Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.

4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office to bring about favorable
legislation toward Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.

5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the
Internet as possible by buying the related corporations or a controlling
stock.

6. Yield to the fear of the imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America ?
black gold. America?s economy depends on oil and 41 percent of it comes from
the Middle East.

7. Yell ``foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime,
Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran`` anytime
Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.

8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with
Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam.
Acquire government positions and get membership in local school boards.
Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and
pharmaceutical l companies (Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in
America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?)
Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants
throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way.

9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:


   - Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961).
   - Use no birth control whatsoever ? every baby of Muslim parents is
   automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.
   - Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000
   annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years ? since one can`t
   legally marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.
   - Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so
   far 2,000 released inmates have joined al-Qaida worldwide). Only a few
   ``sleeper cells`` have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil.


10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American
educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1,500) should be
sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There
are currently 300 exclusively Muslim schools in the U.S. which teach loyalty
to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution. In January of 2002, Saudi Arabia?s
Embassy in Washington mailed 4,500 packets of the Quran and videos promoting
Islam to America`s high schools ? free of charge. Saudi Arabia would not
allow the U.S. to reciprocate.

11. Provide very sizable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities
in America to establish ``Centers for Islamic studies`` with Muslim
directors to promote Islam in higher-education institutions.

12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local
and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, when in truth, Islam
hijacked the terrorists.

13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for
sympathy and tolerance towards Muslims in America who are portrayed as
mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.

14. Nullify America`s sense of security by manipulating the intelligence
community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans with reports
of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports,
apartment buildings and malls.

15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic
Sharia as the way of life, not America`s justice system.

16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S., but use the funds to
support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.

17. Raise interest in Islam on America`s campuses by insisting freshman take
at least one course on Islam.

18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic
student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by Internet
and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and
engender news in the media.

19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals
who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.

20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the U.S. by spotlighting their
voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in
America.



3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I
Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is
not standards compliant, download one
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.
Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel.
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Jul  8 21:42:53 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:42:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
	beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>

Hanoch,

 

Could you post a list of the 17 questions to the dialogue?   It would be
interesting to see how we do as a collective group.   I normally would not
ask such a question but I know you have a sense of humor.  

 

One other question, will Moshiach  be working with these 33 Rabbi's or doing
his own conversions?    

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:29 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the
Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

 

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very
tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the
entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will
be accepted in Israel).  

 

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary
from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job
opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....

                     Hanoch

 

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel  60 Converts are Missionaries
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/resized/136-106/35/35820.
jpg> 

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to
Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus - and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
anti-assimilation Yad L'Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
"shocked" at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
conversion rolls.

Yad L'Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more
than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after
their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted
as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into
religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the
legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 04:27:39 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:27:39 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
Message-ID: <4A55B80B.3070605@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 05:08:44 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:08:44 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] 17th of Tammuz and Mashiach's lost light.
Message-ID: <4A55C1AC.6060508@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 05:15:05 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:15:05 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] The 17th of Tammuz. 
Message-ID: <4A55C329.4090103@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 05:40:20 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:40:20 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Secrets of the 17th of Tamuz
Message-ID: <4A55C914.1010900@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 05:44:22 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:44:22 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult for
	Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel]
Message-ID: <4A55CA06.3060800@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Converts too!!Why it's become SO difficult for
	Ephramites to beaccepted in Israel
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  9 05:46:34 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:46:34 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] inviting a speaker from Mahigut Yehudit
Message-ID: <SNT108-W27A69484E3FDD2D9844A2CC8260@phx.gbl>


Good answer Hanoch - it gave some interesting insights I hadn't really pondered before.
Cornie - I love your spirit. You're such a kind hearted and inspiring person.  I'm praying for you each day - writing a book is some task.  I'm so glad you're doing it!  
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  9 06:00:47 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:00:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Game over, or new beginning?
Message-ID: <SNT108-W5892135EC9A8C708774F8EC8260@phx.gbl>


Thanks Hanoch - I really needed to read this tonight. xx
_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 06:39:23 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:39:23 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites
	to be	accepted in Israel]
Message-ID: <4A55D6EB.3070602@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
	accepted in Israel
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:21:11 -0400
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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul  9 07:16:44 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 07:16:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] To whom does the "Land" have special meaning?
Message-ID: <4A55DFAC.1030103@mts.net>

*SSkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk*




*e J


udgment of Solomon on a Hot Summer's Day: By Moshe Feiglin*
/Translated from Makor Rishon/

13 Tamuz 5769
July 5, '09

The first summer heat wave is already here, and with it the burning 
forests. If you have any doubt as to whose land this is, just take a 
look at the Judgment of Solomon that takes place here every time the 
desert wind blows in from the East. The Jews say, "the baby is mine" and 
plant trees. The Arabs say "the baby is mine, and as long as he is in 
your hands, we will turn him to ashes."

This is nothing new. In February 1947, when British Foreign Secretary 
Ernest Bevin explained the decision of her majesty's government to 
transfer the Land of Israel mandate to the UN, he explained the basis of 
the Arab-Israel conflict as follows:

"/For the Jews, the main point is to establish a sovereign Jewish state. 
For the Arabs, the main point is to completely oppose any form of Jewish 
sovereignty in any part of Palestine/."

The Arabs are not motivated by positive national aspirations. They have 
no desire to return to a "homeland" and to realize their imaginary 
"Palestinian" nationality. They simply want to make sure that the Jews 
are not in Israel. It is not despair caused by loss of what is theirs 
that motivates them; it is the hope to destroy what belongs to the Jews. 
The nurturing of this hope is the factor that gave birth to Arab 
nationalism. The elimination of the hope of the Arabs to drive us from 
our land will induce calm.

In his book, /The Long Short Way/, former IDF Chief of Staff Moshe 
(Bogi) Ya'alon describes how when he was head of Israeli Intelligence he 
initially believed that Arafat actually wanted a state. Slowly but 
surely, and after a horrifying period of bloodshed that left scores of 
Israelis dead, he reached the conclusion that the Arabs of the Land of 
Israel do not want a state. If the politicians and generals who 
determine Israel's policies would only study the roots of the conflict, 
delve into its historical sources and draw conclusions on the basis of 
facts and not on the basis of wishful thinking - we could save the 
painful price that Israel's citizens have been paying as they wait for 
reality to dawn upon its political and military leaders.

The Arabs in Israel never had a separate self-definition. There is not 
and there never has been a Palestinian nation or a Palestinian state. 
There is no cultural difference between an Arab in Shechem and an Arab 
in Damascus or Baghdad - not in language, not in religion and not in 
custom. The Arabs in the Land of Israel did not have independent 
national aspirations until the Zionists arrived here. Even afterwards, 
their national aspirations were limited to the territory in which the 
Jews lived. Arab nationalism focused its aspirations - not on the Land 
of Israel - but on the State of Israel. The only territories that 
interested the Arabs were those that Jews had already settled.

Israel's War of Independence in 1948 was not waged over Judea and 
Samaria, Jerusalem or over the Right of Return. According to the 
Partition Plan, all those territories were to remain in Arab hands. The 
War of Independence was initiated by the heads of the Islamic movement 
in Israel. Their purpose was strictly to prevent the Jews from 
establishing a state on a tiny piece of land - much smaller than the 
area within the "Green Line." And remember, the Arabs were but a small 
minority in the area that the UN designated for the Jews.

When the PLO was established - prior to the Six Day War, its national 
aspirations were focused inside the boundaries of the Green Line - the 
territory held by the Jews after the War of Independence. But wonder of 
wonders: After the Six Day War and the liberation of Judea, Samaria and 
Jerusalem, everything changed. Now the stolen Palestinian homeland was 
no longer Israel's coastal region, but rather the mountains. Why? 
Because that's where the Jews lived.

As soon as an Arab army - any Arab army - be it Jordanian, Iraqi, Syrian 
or Egyptian - controls territory in the Land of Israel - the Palestinian 
nationalism evaporates. The motivation of the Arabs of the Land of 
Israel is negative. Bevin's definition was most exact. The smoke from 
this year's forest fires is proof of his words. Let the land burn - the 
main thing is that the Jews should not be here.


Taken from The weekly news letter of Moshe Feiglin. Sent in by Cornie
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  9 07:43:18 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (creechmargie at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
Message-ID: <160393.22712.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


What idiots!? I wonder how many realize what they?will be?giving up if they really want to boycott Israel.? If they really want to support the Palestinians maybe?they should?only use?Palestinian products.? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&NR=1
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:


From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 4:27 AM


Shalom Chaverim,

this was sent to me by Sarita.
Many Jews are leaving this country of "Liberte', Egualite' and Fraternite."

For those of you who do not speak French, the words are despicable , ranging from Israeli aggression on women and children, to desecration of mosques etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. It is sickening.

The T Shirts say "Boycott Israel..... Palestine lives."

This will soon be reaching our shores. In some places the bug has already arrived and is highly contagious. It is resistant to all known antibiotics and is lethal. 
The only known cure is a very heavy dose of Torah Truth and plenty of rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfK7Yal64S0&

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________



      
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 08:24:43 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:24:43 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] To whom does the "Land" have special meaning?]
Message-ID: <4A55EF9B.6040001@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 08:39:03 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:39:03 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Action Boycott]
Message-ID: <4A55F2F7.2050008@westnet.com.au>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 20:08:59 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:08:59 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be 
	accepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W42C1FA0A4874F510710AE6C5290@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370907091808q6294971cq25e53279ff7017e4@mail.gmail.com>

Web -

    That's because you are a man of absolute integrity and principles...and
the day WILL come, when you get to come home, AS Ephraim, I am certain of
it. And that day will come sooner then any of us realize!

    And you are also totally right when you say how this missionary,
false-conversion gives everyone (every Ephramite) a bad name, and puts THEM
unfairly under suspicion.

   Best regards,
            * Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>   The thought of folks, christian or otherwise, pretending to be Jews in
> order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.  Maybe in their
> own minds and hearts they have "pure motives," but that is beside the
> point.
>
> I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone that I'm not. I suppose
> this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper
> season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.  I'm
> not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the
> whole process a black eye.
>
> I would love to live in Yisrael.  I have a spot picked out. I think about
> it, pray about it and work toward it EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend
> to be someone else in order to do it.  And I'm someone who would never do
> the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.
>
> When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon
> us. Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare
> for that time.  Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of
> Ephraim will search out their brothers.  Of course I don't want the
> missionaries in our community either!
>
>
> I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because
> you shouldn't go down that road.  At the very least the road blocks should
> make us examine our path.
>
> Web
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
> From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
> accepted in Israel
>
>
> Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
> readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a *connection *to
> the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:
>
> 1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
> 2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult)
> very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in
> the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which
> will be accepted in Israel).
>
> The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian
> missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a
> 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
>                     * Hanoch*
> **
> *Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
> *by Hillel Fendel [image: 60 Converts are Missionaries]
>
> The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts
> to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries.
>
> Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
> anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
> Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
> ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
>
> An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
> presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
> prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
> not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
> lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
> conversion rolls.
>
> Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses
> of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during
> and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then
> accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were
> accepted into religious schools.
>
> The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
> Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
> whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
> to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in
> the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
>
> ------------------------------
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 20:16:34 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:16:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to 
	beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Marvin -

    I have not seen (and I don't expect that they'll publish it) those '17
Magical Questions to Weed out Missionaries.'  :-)    But, I can assure you
that I will find out many of them, just give me a few weeks on 'the
ground.'

   In Messianic Times, I think a LOT of religious functionaries (in a LOT of
religions...) will be looking for a job.....

   Our sages have taught that in Messianic Times, Israel will no longer
accept converts.  I've wondered a lot lately, if the conversion fiasco in
Israel is a sign of some kind.....
           *      Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

>  Hanoch,
>
>
>
> Could you post a list of the 17 questions to the dialogue?   It would be
> interesting to see how we do as a collective group.   I normally would not
> ask such a question but I know you have a sense of humor.
>
>
>
> One other question, will Moshiach  be working with these 33 Rabbi?s or
> doing his own conversions?
>
>
>
> marvin
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:29 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
> beaccepted in Israel
>
>
>
> Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
> readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a *connection *to
> the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:
>
>
>
> 1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
>
> 2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult)
> very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in
> the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which
> will be accepted in Israel).
>
>
>
> The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian
> missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a
> 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
>
>                     * Hanoch*
>
>
>
> *Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts**
> *by Hillel Fendel [image: 60 Converts are Missionaries]
>
> The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts
> to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries.
>
> Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
> anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
> Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
> ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
>
> An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
> presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
> prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
> not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
> lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
> conversion rolls.
>
> Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses
> of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during
> and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then
> accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were
> accepted into religious schools.
>
> The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
> Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
> whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
> to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in
> the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 20:17:46 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:17:46 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites 
	to be accepted in Israel]
In-Reply-To: <4A55D6EB.3070602@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A55D6EB.3070602@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370907091817h2ad4f90ar846445a29bb23b8b@mail.gmail.com>

Joe, you TOTALLY ROCK!!!  G'day and Shabbat Shalom!

               *   Hanoch
*
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:39 AM, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Chaverim,
>
> I do not want to be someone that I am not but I do want to be someone that
> I am.
> The more road blocks the better. More road blocks to come.
> More examination of the road map.
> Open highways only mean you drive faster from one bottle neck to another.
> I would rather rough it up off road, at least I get to enjoy the scenery.
> Sooner or later I hope I will get to my final destination.
> The only desire I have is for the unification.
>
> 40 +40 +40
> Moshe the Prince of Egypt.
> Moshe the humble shepherd.
> Moshe the humble servant of YHVH.
>
> What an inspirational example we have.
> How many times did he have to question who he was ?...... the upstart,the
> reluctant, the hesitant, the stutterer.
> But you know, come to think of it, he never made the final destination,
> only saw it.
> Foolish man that I am.
> If only I could be a zillionith of his stature.
>
> 30 + 7 +33
> David the dreamer shepherd.
> David the King, David the Hero, David the sinner, David the rejected and
> penitent.
> David the King.
>
> What an inspirational example we have.
> Road blocks and more road blocks.
> Prepared and planned the temple...... but was not allowed to build it.
> **Foolish man that I am.
> If only I could be a zillionith of his stature.
> **
> **The only desire I have is for the unification**.
> **I do not want to be someone that I am not but I do want to be someone
> that I am...... a nobody.
> In the end all I have is HaShem's Rachamim.
> Will I make the final destination ? ......Only HaShem knows.
> But I do intend to enjoy the scenery which ever way.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
> To: roots of faith <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:21:11 -0400
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
> accepted in Israel
>   The thought of folks, christian or otherwise, pretending to be Jews in
> order to rob actual Jews of their heritage turns my stomach.  Maybe in their
> own minds and hearts they have "pure motives," but that is beside the
> point.
>
> I would hate to be someone pretending to be someone that I'm not. I suppose
> this is yet another reason for Ephraim to be Ephraim and wait for the proper
> season rather than lumping themselves with these deceptive converts.  I'm
> not saying that most converts are deceptive, but boy does this give the
> whole process a black eye.
>
> I would love to live in Yisrael.  I have a spot picked out. I think about
> it, pray about it and work toward it EVERY day, but I'm not going to pretend
> to be someone else in order to do it.  And I'm someone who would never do
> the missionary thing because I don't agree with their message.
>
> When Ephraim can honestly go home as Ephraim, the season will be upon
> us. Until then we have a lot of learning and living as a people to prepare
> for that time.  Maybe as it becomes more difficult to convert, more of
> Ephraim will search out their brothers.  Of course I don't want the
> missionaries in our community either!
>
>
> I think folks need to realize that sometimes road blocks are there because
> you shouldn't go down that road.  At the very least the road blocks should
> make us examine our path.
>
> Web
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:28:35 -0400
> From: youngbarzel at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to be
> accepted in Israel
>
> Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
> readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a *connection *to
> the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:
>
> 1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
> 2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult)
> very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in
> the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which
> will be accepted in Israel).
>
> The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian
> missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a
> 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
>                     * Hanoch*
> **
> *Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
> *by Hillel Fendel [image: 60 Converts are Missionaries]
>
> The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts
> to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries.
>
> Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
> anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
> Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
> ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
>
> An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
> presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
> prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
> not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
> lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
> conversion rolls.
>
> Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses
> of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during
> and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then
> accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were
> accepted into religious schools.
>
> The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
> Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
> whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
> to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in
> the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
>
> ------------------------------
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. See how.<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 20:25:13 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:25:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Photo of what today & the next 3 weeks (T'sha B'av) are
	ALL about.....
Message-ID: <855590370907091825mb3b646ei5d10b4b0b2dd3890@mail.gmail.com>

I* LOVE* this photo...
          *  Hanoch*
**
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From tammyhulon at msn.com  Thu Jul  9 22:35:55 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:35:55 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
In-Reply-To: <160393.22712.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <160393.22712.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W1815565FB399D814AC9BEAD9270@phx.gbl>


Buy Israeli made as much as we can!  I plan to start looking for Israeli products.  Tami
 


Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:43:18 -0700
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org







What idiots!  I wonder how many realize what they will be giving up if they really want to boycott Israel.  If they really want to support the Palestinians maybe they should only use Palestinian products.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&NR=1
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:


From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 4:27 AM


Shalom Chaverim,

this was sent to me by Sarita.
Many Jews are leaving this country of "Liberte', Egualite' and Fraternite."

For those of you who do not speak French, the words are despicable , ranging from Israeli aggression on women and children, to desecration of mosques etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. It is sickening.

The T Shirts say "Boycott Israel..... Palestine lives."

This will soon be reaching our shores. In some places the bug has already arrived and is highly contagious. It is resistant to all known antibiotics and is lethal. 
The only known cure is a very heavy dose of Torah Truth and plenty of rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfK7Yal64S0&

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________


_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 22:57:13 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:57:13 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.
Message-ID: <4A56BC19.6070306@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul  9 23:00:47 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:00:47 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Action Boycott]
Message-ID: <4A56BCEF.2050102@westnet.com.au>

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From: Tammy Hulon <tammyhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Action Boycott
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:35:55 -0400
Size: 7975
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090710/803daebd/attachment.eml 

From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 10 00:09:31 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:09:31 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Action Boycott]
In-Reply-To: <4A56BCEF.2050102@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A56BCEF.2050102@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <AB210949EE854F0291E8FA80F413D398@bettylaptop>

Me too, Tammy!  If you have never tried the Israeli skin care from the Dead
Sea called Ahava, you might want to check it out.  They are having a free
shipping sale going on right now.  They even have things for the guys.  Here
is one link if you are interested.  

 

http://www.judaicawebstore.com/aish//Category.aspx?categoryID=219
<http://www.judaicawebstore.com/aish/Category.aspx?categoryID=219> 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 11:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Action Boycott]

 

Shalom Tami,

I 'll second that !!!!

Shabbat Shalom 
JOE.

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 10 00:13:07 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:13:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The 17th of Tammuz.
In-Reply-To: <4A55C329.4090103@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A55C329.4090103@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5774338BB1EA4D0193D982AC3663CC70@bettylaptop>

Thanks Joe for this and the others posts today regarding the 17th of Tammuz!

 

Shabbat Shalom to you and the other Aussies from Down Under!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The 17th of Tammuz.

 

The 17th of Tammuz. 

This Thursday is the 17th of Tammuz, a fast day commemorating the fall of
Jerusalem, prior to the destruction of the Holy Temple. The fast also marks
the beginning of a 3 week period of mourning leading up to Tisha B'Av.
"The 17th of Tammuz is the first of four fast days mentioned in the
prophets. The purpose of a fast day is to awaken our sense of loss over the
destroyed Temple - and the subsequent Jewish journey into exile.
Agonizing over these events is meant to help us conquer those spiritual
deficiencies which brought about these tragic events. Through the process of
"Teshuva" - self-introspection and a commitment to improve - we have the
power to transform tragedy into joy. In fact, the Talmud says that after the
future redemption of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple, these fast
days will be re-dedicated as days of rejoicing and festivity. For as the
prophet Zechariah says: the 17th of Tammuz will become a day of "joy to the
House of Judah, and gladness and cheerful feasts." 

Five great catastrophes occurred in Jewish history on the 17th of Tammuz:
Moses broke the tablets at Mount Sinai - in response to the sin of the
Golden Calf.
The daily offerings in the First Temple were suspended during the siege of
Jerusalem, after the Kohanim could no longer obtain animals.
Jerusalem's walls were breached, prior to the destruction of the Second
Temple in 70 CE.
Prior to the Great Revolt, the Roman general Apostamos burned a Torah scroll
- setting a precedent for the horrifying burning of Jewish books throughout
the centuries.
An idolatrous image was placed in the Sanctuary of the Holy Temple - a
brazen act of blasphemy and desecration."

 <http://www.aish.com/h/9av/oal/48943446.html>
http://www.aish.com/h/9av/oal/48943446.html 

I couldn't help but think of reason number four when I read an article
<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443747931&pagename=JPost%2FJ
PArticle%2FShowFull>  in the Jpost entitled "Hundreds to attend burial of
holy books." It is as if history hasn't changed much since the time
Apostamos burned a Torah Scroll. Today, the day before the seventeenth of
Tammuz, there will be a burial ceremony at Homesh for holy books allegedly
burned by local Arabs.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 10 04:59:54 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:59:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
Message-ID: <SNT108-W83026A25DCEC9486D90B0C8270@phx.gbl>


I had a worrying e mail from Sandra today.  She is finding her circumstances hard to bare and as a consequence finding it hard to study her Tanaka especially as she has no one near by to support her in faith.  PLEASE pray for her.  It worries me to hear her say these things.  I know how much she has studied and enriched our group with her thoughts and lengthy posts.  She really sounds like she needs our support.
Shabbat Shalom all.
Catherine x
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From cormary at mts.net  Fri Jul 10 05:58:39 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:58:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Photo of what today & the next 3 weeks (T'sha B'av)
	are	ALL about.....
In-Reply-To: <855590370907091825mb3b646ei5d10b4b0b2dd3890@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907091825mb3b646ei5d10b4b0b2dd3890@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A571EDF.1040100@mts.net>

Hey Hanoch!
Quite something for a change! Even if it is just a dream. Imagine that 
golden dome is now changed to a Menora.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> I* LOVE* this photo...
>           */  Hanoch/*
> *//* 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.8/2227 - Release Date: 07/09/09 05:55:00
>
>   

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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Fri Jul 10 06:11:01 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:11:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Photo of what today & the next 3 weeks (T'sha B'av)
	areALL about.....
References: <855590370907091825mb3b646ei5d10b4b0b2dd3890@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D48747B60F74AF29D58C8BD65A5EDA0@BatYah>

I believe this is  the most beautiful picture in the world. Todah rabah for sending it.

BatYah
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hanoch Young 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:25 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Photo of what today & the next 3 weeks (T'sha B'av) areALL about.....


  I LOVE this photo...
              Hanoch




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Jul 10 07:46:36 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:46:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
	beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com><4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>
	<855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86830945D682446A80A6948BF4061467@TESTPC>

Hanoch,

 

Thanks for the temple pic.   I would say I have to agree with you on this
last post.   I realize I don't fully understand the problem and damage and
hurt Christian missionaries do in the Jewish community.   However, I can
promise you and the Jewish world one thing.   Christians missionaries have
been working, trying to save the world for  about 2000 years and they are
not gaining ground.   It is a failed mission.   Encourage them to hold on,
Messiah is coming and Ephraim his brothers are returning also.

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

Hey Marvin - 

 

    I have not seen (and I don't expect that they'll publish it) those '17
Magical Questions to Weed out Missionaries.'  :-)    But, I can assure you
that I will find out many of them, just give me a few weeks on 'the ground.'


 

   In Messianic Times, I think a LOT of religious functionaries (in a LOT of
religions...) will be looking for a job.....

 

   Our sages have taught that in Messianic Times, Israel will no longer
accept converts.  I've wondered a lot lately, if the conversion fiasco in
Israel is a sign of some kind.....

                 Hanoch

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

Hanoch,

 

Could you post a list of the 17 questions to the dialogue?   It would be
interesting to see how we do as a collective group.   I normally would not
ask such a question but I know you have a sense of humor.  

 

One other question, will Moshiach  be working with these 33 Rabbi's or doing
his own conversions?    

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:29 AM 


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the
Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

 

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very
tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the
entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will
be accepted in Israel).  

 

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary
from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job
opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....

                     Hanoch

 

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel 60 Converts are Missionaries

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to
Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus - and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
anti-assimilation Yad L'Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
"shocked" at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
conversion rolls.

Yad L'Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more
than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after
their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted
as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into
religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the
legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 


_______________________________________________

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 10 08:27:34 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:27:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W83026A25DCEC9486D90B0C8270@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W83026A25DCEC9486D90B0C8270@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS10D774B5231984ACB89161BA270@phx.gbl>

Thank you for letting us know, Catherine - praying for Sandra. 


From: Catherine Cashmore 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:59 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers


I had a worrying e mail from Sandra today.  She is finding her circumstances hard to bare and as a consequence finding it hard to study her Tanaka especially as she has no one near by to support her in faith.  PLEASE pray for her.  It worries me to hear her say these things.  I know how much she has studied and enriched our group with her thoughts and lengthy posts.  She really sounds like she needs our support. 


Shabbat Shalom all.


Catherine x


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From beartrm at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 10 11:43:46 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
Message-ID: <225372.37291.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Please forgive me but I have been out of touch for a while.? I have enjoyed catching up on all that is going on.? Catherine please let Sandra know I will be praying for her with all my heart.? I know how hard it is not having much support nearby.? If it were not for all you guys on the dialogue list I would feel really disconnected.? I have been soaking up all that Joe, Hanoch, Marvin, etc. have been posting and as always there is so much food for thought in all your words.? As always I hunger for HaShem's will in my life and hope not to place in in a box.? I pray we all have open hearts when it comes to His revelations to each one of us.
I hope everyone has a blessed Shabbat Shalom,?? Susan

--- On Fri, 7/10/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 4:59 AM




#yiv640418730 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv640418730 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I had a worrying e mail from Sandra today. ?She is finding her circumstances hard to bare and as a?consequence?finding it hard to study her Tanaka especially as she has no one near by to support her in faith. ?PLEASE?pray for her. ?It worries me to hear her say these things. ?I know how much she has studied and enriched our group with her thoughts and lengthy posts. ?She really sounds like she needs our support.


Shabbat Shalom all.


Catherine x


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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Fri Jul 10 16:06:59 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:06:59 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!
References: <42C3E6B3-E9DA-42C8-8B22-F153AE0DDF67@earthlink.net><11A856DFD179404B8E66212FCA150ED4@bettylaptop><005d01c9ff4a$e462c1f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
	<2C1023A03EF94A17A75D06C7188259A1@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <003d01ca01a2$5daa6be0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>


  Thanks Marv, but when Betty replied the attachments were there????

  Dick the PDF file is there; you have to scroll to the bottom of all of the attachments.

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
  Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:36 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

   

  I do not have an attachment???   Dick L

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Betty K Givin 

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:11 PM

    Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

     

    James, I was so anxious to read the report and see the photos, but couldn't open any of the docs.anyone else having trouble?  Will go to SWW to see if perhaps something is posted there.

     

    Thanks,

     

    Elisheva/Betty

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
    Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: [Dialogue] Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation!

     

    A PDF version of this report with photos is attached to this e-mail. Please view, download, and circulate as you wish...

     

    Extraordinary Finds at Mt Zion Excavation

     

    A Preliminary Report after Three Weeks.

     

    size=2 width="100%" align=center> 
    _______________________________________________



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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 10 16:40:44 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:40:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W83026A25DCEC9486D90B0C8270@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W83026A25DCEC9486D90B0C8270@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <74675649AB6744A48E0BD48A285B0A44@bettylaptop>

Thank you Catherine.  Sandra is already on my prayer list regarding her
children, but I will definitely extend my prayer to include specifically
this.  I have been where she is and it is indeed difficult.

 

SANDRA, PLEASE REACH UP TO HASHEM AND LET HIS YAD TOVA (GOOD HAND) SUPPORT
YOU AND LIFT YOU UP.GLAD YOU REACHED OUT TO CATHERINE.WE LOVE YOU AND WE
CARE AND ARE REACHING OUT TO YOU ACROSS THE MILES.READ PSALM 139 TO SEE JUST
HOW MUCH HASHEM LOVES YOU, EVEN BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!!!

 

Shabbat shalom dear sister,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:00 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers

 

I had a worrying e mail from Sandra today.  She is finding her circumstances
hard to bare and as a consequence finding it hard to study her Tanaka
especially as she has no one near by to support her in faith.  PLEASE pray
for her.  It worries me to hear her say these things.  I know how much she
has studied and enriched our group with her thoughts and lengthy posts.  She
really sounds like she needs our support.

 

Shabbat Shalom all.

 

Catherine x

 

  _____  

View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn
<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/>  more!

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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 10 20:38:13 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.
Message-ID: <832889.4193.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Toda Joe,
You are such an inspiration!
Shabbat Shalom,
Margie

--- On Thu, 7/9/09, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:


From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 10:57 PM


Shabbat Shalom Chaverim.


Toda al kol ma shebarata, Toda al ma sheli natata.
Al or einayim, Chaver oh shnayim, Al ma sheyesh li ba'olam.
Al shir kolei'ach Velev solei'ach Shebizchutam ani kayam.
Toda al kol ma shebarata, Toda al ma sheli natata.
Al tzchok shel yeled Ushmei hat'chelet Al adama - uvayit cham.
Pina lashevet Isha ohevet Shebizchutam ani kayam.
Toda al kol ma shebarata, Toda al ma sheli natata.
Al yom shel osher, T'mimut veyosher,
Al yom atzuv shene'elam. Tshu'ot - alpayim,
V'chapayim, Shebizchutam ani kayam.

Thank you for everything that you have created.
Thank you for everything that you gave.
About the light of the eyes , a friend or two About everything that I have in the world.
About the song and the heart Because all of this I am alive.
Thank you for everything that you have created.
Thank you for everything that you gave.
About the smile of a child, About the earth, and warm house
Corner to live ,woman to love. because of these I am alive.
Thank you for everything that you created. Thank you for everything that you gave...

Todah Rabbah Abba.
Seakers on. !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69BYnseEiKA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmashiachiscoming.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

Shabbat Shalom .... Time to rest in HaShem.
JOE.

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 00:23:59 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:23:59 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
Message-ID: <SNT108-W2876EADD24CB685B087A1BC8240@phx.gbl>


So lovely to hear from you again Susan!  Thank you all for praying.  It really worried me that she had expressed that she was so pressured that she felt it too hard to study her Tanaka.  it sounded so unlike her.  I love everyone on this group so very much.  it's a special place and I am so very thankful for you all.  I know that HaShem will hear our shouts for help.  Catherine xx
_________________________________________________________________
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 00:26:47 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:26:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.
Message-ID: <SNT108-W17A5DDE82ED9F1DB662210C8240@phx.gbl>


Thank you thank you Joe!  That's truly beautiful.
_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 00:53:33 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:53:33 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
	be	accepted in Israel]
Message-ID: <SNT108-W17D87A8E5ADF4C49FB942EC8240@phx.gbl>


Brilliant Thoughts Joe.  Thank you for this.  It helps.  Xx
_________________________________________________________________

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 11 03:10:52 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:10:52 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers]
Message-ID: <4A58490C.6030808@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 11 03:34:34 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:34:34 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers]
Message-ID: <4A584E9A.6010802@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 05:56:07 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:56:07 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Sandra needs prayers] - Ross and Joe
Message-ID: <SNT108-W118A030B823FCBC4EFF358C8240@phx.gbl>


Thank you Joe - you put this in better words than I can express.  Ross has done an amazing service in bringing us all together, and your friendship has been a light in my life.  My heart goes out to you and all my dialogue family.  You are all in my prayers daily.  May we be home soon!
_________________________________________________________________
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 06:21:39 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:21:39 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] radio program I listened to
Message-ID: <SNT108-W197F30C0E025DA6FD45C94C8240@phx.gbl>


I listened to this radio program tonight and thought it was so very sad.  i didn't know what to make of it - whether to be joyful that Jewish people felt such a strong need to keep in touch with their 'identity', or weep because they are atheists!  They follow their traditions with no belief - even an orthodox Rabbi expressed how much of his congregation are there for a sense of belonging and don't hold any belief in the One HaShem.  I can't imagine my life without that knowledge. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003jzdt  It made me feel almost as if we are losing a battle - although I know inside this isn't so and the call is getting louder.

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From goodears at jps.net  Sat Jul 11 13:01:30 2009
From: goodears at jps.net (Ron Runyon)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:01:30 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
In-Reply-To: <200907081028.1moy8w6MO3Nl34b0@mx-clapper.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1MPgtC-0007qn-Nm@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and
Tittles"?    I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the Enlarged
letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the
TaNaCH.

Shalom,
Ron Runyon
 




From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 11 15:13:16 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:13:16 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in Charlotte
Message-ID: <55D6C48B-E59E-4222-ABE2-685E211AC802@earthlink.net>

I don't have all the details but I wanted to give everyone a heads up  
on the upcoming visit of authors Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson,  
centered on their latest book, A Prayer to our Fathers. I don't have  
the place set yet but the meeting will be sponsored by United Israel  
and take place on Sunday afternoon, July 26th. Please mark the date  
and plan to come if you are within striking distance of Charlotte. I  
think it is truly going to be an inspired gathering. More on this later.

Shabbat Shalom,

James
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 11 16:12:19 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:12:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Readings these days...
Message-ID: <DCA4CC14-6009-4BA7-A01C-FC341EDB3B74@earthlink.net>

Shabbat Shalom to all,

I have been back in the States for one week, up in the Minneapolis  
area doing a Biblical Archaeology Seminar with Dr. Tina Wray. It has  
really been a good time and has also allowed me a bit of time to get  
my bearings after three weeks of dawn to midnight activities in  
connection with the Mt Zion dig (June 12 through July 3). I have been  
badly jet lagged and waking up at odd hours, but I have had some  
evening and early morning time.

The BAR seminar really went well and I was privileged to share the  
lecture time with Dr. Tina Wray, who is one of most interesting  
scholars I know. The people who came were wonderful, interested, and  
really willing to delve into their studies. We had purposely chosen  
some really provocative topics, see the Web site http://www.bib-arch.org/travel-study/st-olaf-2009.asp 
. The only thing missing was having Chris Christenbury with us! He had  
registered and was all set to come but he had emergency situations at  
Cove Creek farm and had to cancel just a few days before it was to  
start. BTW, BAS did tape all the lectures so eventually they will be  
available on DVD if any of you are interested. Quite a few of my  
lectures over the years are now on DVD and available through BAS, see: http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbMktVideo.html

One thing I have been doing this past week, besides trying to raise  
funds for the Mt Zion dig, is to catch up on Ross Nichol's lessons on  
the weekly Torah readings. I had fallen behind about four or five  
weeks and now I have them all downloaded into iTunes and on both my  
computer and my iPhone. I have been listening through the week and I  
have found them so very inspiring and worthwhile. I know everyone on  
this list loves and appreciates Ross but I wonder how many of us have  
taken advantage of this amazing opportunity to delve into the Torah  
with Ross as teacher, Sabbath by Sabbath. I have also been thinking  
that the book of BaMidbar is beyond amazing! One tends to think of  
Genesis and Deuteronomy as being central to the Torah, but more and  
more I realize how many foundational pillars and key concepts related  
to Torah faith are in BaMidbar.

I stayed over this weekend to speak at a gathering tomorrow organized  
by Keith Johnson and Nehemia Gordon. They are expecting several  
hundred people, many of them pastors, to come together and consider  
the ideas in their new book, A Prayer to our Father. I have been asked  
to address the group on how understanding how Hebraic roots shed new  
light on understanding Jesus in his own place and time.

Wishing everyone a good Shabbat and fruitful study, whether of Pinchas  
or whatever else is on your agenda.

Warmest best,

James


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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sat Jul 11 17:14:28 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:14:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
References: <E1MPgtC-0007qn-Nm@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5CE9F830E14A4C919AC473E78680C17D@davesbook>

http://rootsoffaith.org/?s=jots+and+tittles&search=
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Runyon" <goodears at jps.net>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:01 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction


>
> Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and
> Tittles"?    I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the 
> Enlarged
> letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the
> TaNaCH.
>
> Shalom,
> Ron Runyon
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 



From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 11 21:28:17 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:28:17 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] radio program I listened to]
Message-ID: <4A594A41.1020502@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 11 21:42:40 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:42:40 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Torah Readings these days...]
Message-ID: <4A594DA0.1090704@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Readings these days...
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:12:19 -0400
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From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Jul 11 22:34:07 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:34:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in
	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <55D6C48B-E59E-4222-ABE2-685E211AC802@earthlink.net>
References: <55D6C48B-E59E-4222-ABE2-685E211AC802@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <EB154FFB-34B8-4518-8AEC-FE3024114C0D@me.com>

James,

Please post this as an event on the SWW when you work out the details!

Shalom, Ross

On Jul 11, 2009, at 3:13 PM, James Tabor wrote:

> I don't have all the details but I wanted to give everyone a heads  
> up on the upcoming visit of authors Nehemia Gordon and Keith  
> Johnson, centered on their latest book, A Prayer to our Fathers. I  
> don't have the place set yet but the meeting will be sponsored by  
> United Israel and take place on Sunday afternoon, July 26th. Please  
> mark the date and plan to come if you are within striking distance  
> of Charlotte. I think it is truly going to be an inspired gathering.  
> More on this later.
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>
> James
> _______________________________________________

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From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Jul 11 22:35:10 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:35:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Pinchas
Message-ID: <8FCFBC2B-268C-44AB-A47C-D4D95B3A9563@me.com>

Today's torah class is posted on my site for any that missed the live  
class and are interested in downloading it.

www.rootsoffaith.org

Ross


From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 11 23:31:36 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:31:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in Charlotte
Message-ID: <SNT108-W4561114B9F0DDB82631E02C8250@phx.gbl>


Am wondering if Australia counts as striking distance! - Any chance of a podcast?
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 11 23:43:06 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:43:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in
	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W4561114B9F0DDB82631E02C8250@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W4561114B9F0DDB82631E02C8250@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7E021DD2-8F6C-452C-BD1E-76DAF1895302@earthlink.net>

I don't know if the CLT meeting will be set up for this but I think  
Ross Nichols might be having them down to St Francisville later this  
summer and if so he would certainly want to broadcast it live I am sure.

James


On Jul 12, 2009, at 12:31 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

> Am wondering if Australia counts as striking distance! - Any chance  
> of a podcast?
> View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn more!  
> _______________________________________________

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From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Jul 11 23:51:30 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:51:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th
	in	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <7E021DD2-8F6C-452C-BD1E-76DAF1895302@earthlink.net>
References: <SNT108-W4561114B9F0DDB82631E02C8250@phx.gbl>
	<7E021DD2-8F6C-452C-BD1E-76DAF1895302@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F19E6654-3501-4E9B-8CA1-381CE01AC5ED@me.com>

I do intend on trying to work out a visit from Nehemiah and Keith. I  
will keep everyone posted as I work on this. If they are able to visit  
we will certainly webcast live as well as post the podcast.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 11, 2009, at 11:43 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  
wrote:

> I don't know if the CLT meeting will be set up for this but I think  
> Ross Nichols might be having them down to St Francisville later this  
> summer and if so he would certainly want to broadcast it live I am  
> sure.
>
> James
>
>
> On Jul 12, 2009, at 12:31 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:
>
>> Am wondering if Australia counts as striking distance! - Any chance  
>> of a podcast?
>> View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn more!  
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 01:04:15 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:04:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Another article about conversos/anusim/Crypto-Jews
Message-ID: <855590370907112304g1bd65d2l653c792b66816a7d@mail.gmail.com>

 A Christian's journey to Judaism By JEMIMAH NOONOO Copyright 2009 Houston
Chronicle July 9, 2009, 6:30PM
  **
 At an East Galveston beach, Mari Barkhausen is waist-deep in the cool,
brown water. After repeating Hebrew blessings, she is immersed once, twice.
When she emerges from the water a third time, she is a Jew.

She hugs her rabbi, looking to the shoreline at her husband and two sons who
are waiting for their mikveh, the ritual immersion for Jewish converts.

?Mazel tov, everyone,? declares Rabbi Stuart Federow. ?This day begins the
rest of your education. Jewish learning never stops.?

Barkhausen?s journey began decades ago as she watched her maternal
grandmother?s peculiar ways. Her Mexican-American *abuela* would light
candles on Fridays and draw the curtains before sundown, cover mirrors at
home when a relative died and examine eggs for blood spots.

No one questioned her ways, and no explanation was ever offered to little
Mari or her siblings.

Years later, Barkhausen would realize those customs were not one woman?s
idiosyncrasies. They were Jewish customs.

Lighting of candles marked the beginning of the Sabbath. Many cover mirrors
when someone dies to avoid concentrating on their grief-stricken
appearances. And the Old Testament teaches that life is in the blood.

Grandma did all these things, Barkhausen remembered. But Grandma wasn?t
Jewish. She was Catholic.
Crypto Jews: a history

Like an increasing number of Latinos, Barkhausen believes her ancestors were
Crypto Jews ? people who outwardly professed another religion but kept
Jewish tradition in secrecy.

Scholars have paid attention to the phenomenon for decades, but the public
interest has skyrocketed more recently.

Houston?s Family Tree DNA now answers about 20 queries weekly from Hispanics
about Jewish ancestry, founder Bennett Greenspan said. And Jewishgen.com,
the leading Web site for Jewish genealogy, has seen the number of people
searching online databases surge from 1 million to 9 million over the past
10 years.

Crypto-Judaism has a 500-year history. In 1492, Jews in Spain were ordered
to convert to Catholicism. Some immigrated to Europe and the Arab world.
They were called Sephardic Jews; Sefarad is the Hebrew word for Spain.

Others stayed in Spain ? Jews in Portugal were affected as well ? and
converted. But some used Catholicism as a cover and kept Jewish tradition,
said Stanley Hordes, author of *To the End of the Earth: A History of the
Crypto Jews of New Mexico.* As the Spanish Inquisition became determined to
root out Judaism, Crypto Jews were tortured or burned at the stake.

Other Jews fled to Mexico. The Garcias (Barkhausen?s maiden name) emigrated
to Mexico from Spain in the early 1500s, for instance. Mexico later
established its own tribunal to persecute Jews.

According to Hordes, Crypto Jews and their descendants also settled
throughout the American Southwest, including Texas, New Mexico and southern
Arizona. No one is sure how many descendants exist today.

The secret practices and daily traditions continued in homes for generations
until many families no longer knew their origin. Eventually, many families?
religious history was lost.

?Even though Grandma didn?t know it was kosher, that was what she was
doing,? Barkhausen said.
South Texas Protestant

Barkhausen, 42, grew up on Presbyterian doctrine in South Texas. By her 30s,
she and husband David were attending a Baptist church in College Station. In
a class about the Old Testament?in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?she learned
about Hebrew festivals.

In 2002, Barkhausen took a teaching job in League City. A fellow teacher
invited her to the conservative Jewish synagogue Shaar Hashalom in Clear
Lake.

?I was a Baptist; I wanted to witness to her,? she laughed. ?I did, I really
did.?

Rabbi Federow?s message was about Sephardic Jews, or Jews from Spain.
Barkhausen had never heard the term.

Back at church, she reflected on the Old Testament?s readings. If Jesus were
alive today, she figured, he?d be in a Jewish synagogue.

So the Barkhausens began attending a Messianic synagogue ? a ?Jewified
version of Christianity,? Barkhausen said. Beth Messiah was a happy
medium?the family worshipped with Jews for Jesus and learned about Jewish
culture.

Barkhausen and her husband taught bar mitzvah classes. Their son Mason
operated the Jumbotron during services.

At home, Barkhausen prepared a Shabbat dinner on Fridays and downloaded
Hebrew prayers. Her home smelled of fresh-baked challah bread and sauteed
tilapia.

She replaced her Aztec calendar and Indian-Mexican pottery with a mezuzah.
Her curio cabinet took on a Passover plate and a ram?s horn, known as a
shofar. She put the shema, a Jewish prayer, near the front door.

The Barkhausens stopped eating pork, which meant cutting out some Mexican
favorites. Letting go of pepperoni pizza was tough, too, said Mason, 19. And
11-year-old Alex always seemed to need just one more minute to finish his
XBox games before Shabbat dinner.

Her home library was soon filled with books such as *Hebrew for
Dummies*,*Christians
Celebrating the Sabbath *and the *Jewish Book of Why. *
A deeper conflict

The Barkhausens? relatives struggled with the family?s new ways.

News that they would no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter caused hard
feelings. Mason got into an argument with an aunt about not eating
shellfish. Suggestions that Grandma?s curious ways might be long-forgotten
Jewish practices were met with cynicism.

?My family thought I was going nuts,? Barkhausen said.

Meanwhile, Barkhausen e-mailed Federow. She planned to use her growing
knowledge about Jewish culture to be a more effective Christian witness. The
two went back and forth for six years.

And then, for about six months, Barkhausen began wrestling with God about
Jesus and salvation.

David, who was raised Catholic, was content with Jews for Jesus. Mainstream
Judaism was out of the question, he said.

Barkhausen kept her intensifying struggle to herself. She busied herself
with research about Crypto Jews. The pieces came together when she saw her
maiden name, Garcia, on a Web site of Sephardic names.

She started to confide in Mason. One day, the two of them told each other
they no longer believed Jesus was the son of God.

It was time to convert to mainstream Judaism, Barkhausen and her son agreed.
The next step was to tell Dad.

?I thought she and my son were going through a phase ? maybe they?re both
crazy,? recalled David Barkhausen, 43.

He didn?t attend the conversion classes at Shaar Hashalom for the first
three weeks. His wife went with Mason and her younger son, Alex.

But after a month, David Barkhausen realized his family was serious and
began attending, too.
Truth or myth?''

Though there is growing interest among Hispanics in Jewish ancestry, the
number of conversions remains small.

About 70 percent of Hispanics are Catholic. By changing religions, they risk
alienation from their families and disruption of their cultural identity.

The subject has also attracted criticism.

Folklorist Judith Neulander takes issue with the idea of a modern-day
Crypto-Jewish presence. (She doesn?t doubt that Crypto-Jews existed in the
15th and 16th centuries).

In a series of journal articles, she has contended that rituals such as
covering mirrors were common throughout Europe and were culled from
Protestant denominations that observed biblical customs.

Neulander is also skeptical of people?s motivations for claiming Jewish
ancestry. She argues it is a way to emphasize Caucasian ancestry and
downplay black or Indian heritage.

Hordes disagrees.

?Until very recently, Jews were regarded in many Christian quarters as the
killers of Christ,? he said. ?That is hardly the vehicle for upward
mobility.?

Motivation aside, the story is a testament to the power of culture, notes
anthropologist Seth Cunin, author of the forthcoming book *Juggling
Identities: Identity and Authenticity Among the Crypto-Jews*.

Much of culture is passed down through oral tradition and written texts,
Cunin said. Many of the texts were lost after Jews were forcibly converted,
but Jewish identity persisted because of its emphasis on action, ritual and
memory.

?The fact that it is preserved suggests that identity and culture do have a
perseverance that is much stronger than we might expect,? he said. ?It is
strong against all odds.?
A return

The day of their conversion ceremony, the Barkhausens arrived a half-hour
early. They had all gotten fresh haircuts. Per the rabbi?s instructions,
Barkhausen?s olive skin was makeup-free, her fingernails without polish. She
wore no rings.

Mason squinted slightly; he had taken off his glasses. And Alex wore a
baseball cap. David?s regular jokes were replaced by somberness.

On the 35-minute drive to Galveston island, she and her husband talked about
their families. Her sisters know. Her parents don?t. As they neared the
beach, Barkhausen reflected on the journey that took her from singing *Jesus
Loves Me* to stumbling through Hebrew prayers.

The Baptist Church. Jews for Jesus. All were pathways leading to this day, a
360-degree return to a forgotten past.

?We are redeeming the choices of our ancestors,? Mason Barkhausen said.
?They couldn?t be Jewish. Now, we can.?

*jemimah.noonoo at chron.com *
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul 12 02:20:29 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:20:29 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Need direction]
Message-ID: <4A598EBD.6090103@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul 12 02:32:29 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:32:29 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Regarding the Shomronim (Samaritans)]
Message-ID: <4A59918D.70604@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Jul 12 03:19:41 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:19:41 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Parashat Pinchas.
Message-ID: <4A599C9D.5000809@westnet.com.au>

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 12 05:52:36 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:52:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in Charlotte
Message-ID: <SNT108-W18D29CEB402B35E0431EA9C8250@phx.gbl>


Wonderful!  Thank you Ross.
(James you're in my prayers each day.  Hearing your news and following the dig is very exciting.  Thank you for all your work and keeping us up to date with all the happenings!)
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 12 06:04:09 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:04:09 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Regarding the Shomronim (Samaritans)]
Message-ID: <SNT108-W412803F3B480A56D0EC3EFC8250@phx.gbl>


Great site Joe!  Thanks - it's been bookmarked.  I think I could spend my life reading there is so much to learn!
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 12 06:24:05 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:24:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in
	Charlotte
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W18D29CEB402B35E0431EA9C8250@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W18D29CEB402B35E0431EA9C8250@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4808870C-12C5-4FC4-87B3-66D32CE95142@earthlink.net>

Much appreciated Catherine. I am in Minneapolis this AM with Nehemia  
and Keith and we are meeting with hundreds of pastors and leaders of  
churches, drawn from throughout the city, who want to hear about the  
"Hebraic roots" of the prayer Yeshua taught his disciples...

James


On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

> Wonderful!  Thank you Ross.
>
> (James you're in my prayers each day.  Hearing your news and  
> following the dig is very exciting.  Thank you for all your work and  
> keeping us up to date with all the happenings!)
>
> Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find  
> out more. _______________________________________________

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 12 06:32:48 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:32:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson: July 26th in Charlotte
Message-ID: <SNT108-W16E1BC6D2B0B56DDC0A3B7C8250@phx.gbl>


That's truly wonderful James!  It never ceases to amaze me how strongly the messages are getting out there - to think of people praying the words of this prayer with true understanding is such a powerful thought.  My mum is reading their book now and loving it!  It's so exciting  My we see the complete restoration of Israel swiftly.
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From goodears at jps.net  Sun Jul 12 16:27:48 2009
From: goodears at jps.net (Ron Runyon)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:27:48 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Need direction]
In-Reply-To: <4A598EBD.6090103@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <E1MQ6aQ-0001e1-Gq@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thank you Joe and Dave. 

 

 What I am looking for is more teaching on the Enlarged Bet of Gen 1:1 and
scribal items like the inverted Nuns of Numbers 10 and dots above letters in
Gen 33, other scribal oddities.

 

 

Shalom,

Ron Runyon

 

  _____  

From: JOE INDOMENICO [mailto:jid at westnet.com.au] 
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 12:20 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Need direction]

 

Shalom Ron,

there are many aspects to the Hebrew alphabet characters.
I do not know if this is what you are looking for.
Here is an excerpt from Breslev.





 

The 22 letters

 

In total, the letters consist of twenty-two different kinds of orders or
arrangements (Heb. sedarim), no less and no more, in order to give the
lights the power to act.

 

Having introduced the subject of the letters, we will now discuss their
number.

 

In total, the letters consist of twenty-two different kinds of orders or
arrangements... As you have already heard, each different function has its
own particular root, and this root is organized into orders or arrangements
that are fitted to the root in question and its intended function. The
quality and number of levels in each of these various orders or arrangements
is an individual matter depending upon the intended function of any given
order. In the case of the letters, each individual letter is one of the
various different orders or interconnected clusters of lights necessary to
bring about action. Each letter is a unique root suited to the execution of
the action that has to emerge from it.

 

...no less and no more... The reason why there are twenty-two is rooted in
the first axiom, into which it is forbidden to inquire, as discussed earlier
(Opening 15). For these are the levels required for the intended purpose, in
order to give the lights the power to act -- so that the lights prepared in
the Sefirot can produce their requisite effects, as will be discussed
further below.

 

Opening 20

 

The letters are different combinations of Kindness, Judgment and Mercy --
lines and dots, signifying opening and closure.

 

The entire key to the organization of the various different orders or
arrangements constituted by the letters lies in the secret of Kindness,
Judgment and Mercy -- right, left and center -- which join together in
different combinations, varying in terms of closure and compression or
opening and unfolding: the line and the dot.

 

Having explained that the letters are orders or arrangements, we will now
explain the basis on which they are organized.

 

The entire key to the organization of the various different orders or
arrangements constituted by the letters... Each of the letters is a
particular arrangement or order of lights based on a specific organizational
law whereby the lights operate together for one purpose, in order to ensure
that the intended effect emerges in the proper way. It is necessary to
understand the foundation on what this organizational law depends. It lies
in the secret of Kindness, Judgment and Mercy. For every effect comes about
as a result of the force produced by a particlar combination of the three
fundamental qualities of Kindness, Judgment and Mercy. These join together
in different combinations varying in terms of closure and opening, as
discussed below. These three qualities correspond to right, left and center
-- namely the sides of the letters. 

 

...which join together in different combinations, varying in terms of
closure and compression... In this case the lights shine in a mode of
concealment, radiating only as a source -- or opening and unfolding: In the
latter case, the lights shine in such a way that the radiation spreads.
Sometimes the closure or compression may be in the middle, while the opening
may be on the right or the left, and so on.



 

Opening and closure are signified respectively by the line and the dot:
these are the fundamental components of all the letters. The letter Yud is a
dot, while the letter Vav is a line. For example the letter Aleph has
closure on the right and the left (the two Yud's), and extension in the
middle (the diagonal Vav).

 

Opening 21

 

The action of the letters is completed by the musical notes, vowel points
and crowns.

 

Note: In the Torah scroll, only the Hebrew letters (otiot) are written, in
some cases with "crowns" (tagin) over them. The associated vowel signs
(nekudot) and musical notes (ta'amim, the cantillation marks or troppe) are
unwritten yet are also integral parts of the oral Torah tradition (Masoret).

 

The completion and perfection of the letters depends on the musical notes,
vowel points and crowns that are joined with them. All of them contribute,
each in its own proper way, to the full and complete execution of the
intended effect or action. However, the main action comes about through the
letters.

 

Having explained the letters, we will now discuss the musical notes, vowel
signs and crowns that are joined with them.

 

The completion and perfection of the letters depends on the musical notes,
vowel points and crowns... 

 

Each thing has to be examined as an individual root in order to establish
whether it is the main factor in itself or merely a component part that
comes to complete the main factor, as discussed below. The main action is
executed by the letters themselves, while their completion and perfection
lies in the musical notes, vowel signs and crowns...

 

...that are joined with them, all of which contribute, as befits each one,
to the perfect execution of the intended effect or action This is something
we can see with our own eyes. As itis below, so it is above. Here below in
this world, we see that the letters of the Torah are complete only together
with their accompanying musical notes, vowel signs and crowns. So too above,
the notes, vowel signs and crowns are bound up with the letters themselves
and serve one and the same purpose.

 

However, the main action comes about through the letters. Similarly in this
world, we also see that the written letters alone are sufficient to give us
an understanding of the text.

 
Please go to this link if this is what you are looking for.

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/spirituality_and_faith/kabbalah_and_mystic
ism/the_mystics_of_hebrew_letters.aspx?id=8804
<http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/spirituality_and_faith/kabbalah_and_mysti
cism/the_mystics_of_hebrew_letters.aspx?id=8804&language=english>
&language=english

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



 


 

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From rossknichols at me.com  Sun Jul 12 18:07:55 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:07:55 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Need direction]
In-Reply-To: <E1MQ6aQ-0001e1-Gq@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1MQ6aQ-0001e1-Gq@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D349E0DB-8A81-4EDB-8CD1-41D417DFC668@me.com>

Ron,

I will check my library. Seems one of the books by Kolatch on the  
Torah brings out a lot of this.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 12, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Ron Runyon <goodears at jps.net> wrote:

> Thank you Joe and Dave.
>
>  What I am looking for is more teaching on the Enlarged Bet of Gen  
> 1:1 and scribal items like the inverted Nuns of Numbers 10 and dots  
> above letters in Gen 33, other scribal oddities.
>
>
> Shalom,
> Ron Runyon
>
> From: JOE INDOMENICO [mailto:jid at westnet.com.au]
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 12:20 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Need direction]
>
> Shalom Ron,
>
> there are many aspects to the Hebrew alphabet characters.
> I do not know if this is what you are looking for.
> Here is an excerpt from Breslev.
>
>
>
>
> The 22 letters
>
> In total, the letters consist of twenty-two different kinds of  
> orders or arrangements (Heb. sedarim), no less and no more, in order  
> to give the lights the power to act.
>
> Having introduced the subject of the letters, we will now discuss  
> their number.
>
> In total, the letters consist of twenty-two different kinds of  
> orders or arrangements... As you have already heard, each different  
> function has its own particular root, and this root is organized  
> into orders or arrangements that are fitted to the root in question  
> and its intended function. The quality and number of levels in each  
> of these various orders or arrangements is an individual matter  
> depending upon the intended function of any given order. In the case  
> of the letters, each individual letter is one of the various  
> different orders or interconnected clusters of lights necessary to  
> bring about action. Each letter is a unique root suited to the  
> execution of the action that has to emerge from it.
>
> ...no less and no more... The reason why there are twenty-two is  
> rooted in the first axiom, into which it is forbidden to inquire, as  
> discussed earlier (Opening 15). For these are the levels required  
> for the intended purpose, in order to give the lights the power to  
> act -- so that the lights prepared in the Sefirot can produce their  
> requisite effects, as will be discussed further below.
>
> Opening 20
>
> The letters are different combinations of Kindness, Judgment and  
> Mercy -- lines and dots, signifying opening and closure.
>
> The entire key to the organization of the various different orders  
> or arrangements constituted by the letters lies in the secret of  
> Kindness, Judgment and Mercy -- right, left and center -- which join  
> together in different combinations, varying in terms of closure and  
> compression or opening and unfolding: the line and the dot.
>
> Having explained that the letters are orders or arrangements, we  
> will now explain the basis on which they are organized.
>
> The entire key to the organization of the various different orders  
> or arrangements constituted by the letters... Each of the letters is  
> a particular arrangement or order of lights based on a specific  
> organizational law whereby the lights operate together for one  
> purpose, in order to ensure that the intended effect emerges in the  
> proper way. It is necessary to understand the foundation on what  
> this organizational law depends. It lies in the secret of Kindness,  
> Judgment and Mercy. For every effect comes about as a result of the  
> force produced by a particlar combination of the three fundamental  
> qualities of Kindness, Judgment and Mercy. These join together in  
> different combinations varying in terms of closure and opening, as  
> discussed below. These three qualities correspond to right, left and  
> center -- namely the sides of the letters.
>
> ...which join together in different combinations, varying in terms  
> of closure and compression... In this case the lights shine in a  
> mode of concealment, radiating only as a source -- or opening and  
> unfolding: In the latter case, the lights shine in such a way that  
> the radiation spreads. Sometimes the closure or compression may be  
> in the middle, while the opening may be on the right or the left,  
> and so on.
> <image001.jpg>
>
>
> Opening and closure are signified respectively by the line and the  
> dot: these are the fundamental components of all the letters. The  
> letter Yud is a dot, while the letter Vav is a line. For example the  
> letter Aleph has closure on the right and the left (the two Yud's),  
> and extension in the middle (the diagonal Vav).
>
> Opening 21
>
> The action of the letters is completed by the musical notes, vowel  
> points and crowns.
>
> Note: In the Torah scroll, only the Hebrew letters (otiot) are  
> written, in some cases with "crowns" (tagin) over them. The  
> associated vowel signs (nekudot) and musical notes (ta'amim, the  
> cantillation marks or troppe) are unwritten yet are also integral  
> parts of the oral Torah tradition (Masoret).
>
> The completion and perfection of the letters depends on the musical  
> notes, vowel points and crowns that are joined with them. All of  
> them contribute, each in its own proper way, to the full and  
> complete execution of the intended effect or action. However, the  
> main action comes about through the letters.
>
> Having explained the letters, we will now discuss the musical notes,  
> vowel signs and crowns that are joined with them.
>
> The completion and perfection of the letters depends on the musical  
> notes, vowel points and crowns...
>
> Each thing has to be examined as an individual root in order to  
> establish whether it is the main factor in itself or merely a  
> component part that comes to complete the main factor, as discussed  
> below. The main action is executed by the letters themselves, while  
> their completion and perfection lies in the musical notes, vowel  
> signs and crowns...
>
> ...that are joined with them, all of which contribute, as befits  
> each one, to the perfect execution of the intended effect or action  
> This is something we can see with our own eyes. As itis below, so it  
> is above. Here below in this world, we see that the letters of the  
> Torah are complete only together with their accompanying musical  
> notes, vowel signs and crowns. So too above, the notes, vowel signs  
> and crowns are bound up with the letters themselves and serve one  
> and the same purpose.
>
> However, the main action comes about through the letters. Similarly  
> in this world, we also see that the written letters alone are  
> sufficient to give us an understanding of the text.
>
> Please go to this link if this is what you are looking for.
> http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/spirituality_and_faith/kabbalah_and_mysticism/the_mystics_of_hebrew_letters.aspx?id=8804&language=english
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Sun Jul 12 18:31:43 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:31:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
	beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com><4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>
	<855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A7B70E2EE4433B9CFDA0C77DC6CD95@TESTPC>

Hanoch,   

 

In messianic times, the country of Israel will no longer except converts.
However that refers to gentiles correct?   Because lost tribers are not in
need of conversion are they?   Only need to do repentance  and return.    If
I'm wrong please feel free to educate me. :) 

 

marvin 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

Hey Marvin - 

 

    I have not seen (and I don't expect that they'll publish it) those '17
Magical Questions to Weed out Missionaries.'  :-)    But, I can assure you
that I will find out many of them, just give me a few weeks on 'the ground.'


 

   In Messianic Times, I think a LOT of religious functionaries (in a LOT of
religions...) will be looking for a job.....

 

   Our sages have taught that in Messianic Times, Israel will no longer
accept converts.  I've wondered a lot lately, if the conversion fiasco in
Israel is a sign of some kind.....

                 Hanoch

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

Hanoch,

 

Could you post a list of the 17 questions to the dialogue?   It would be
interesting to see how we do as a collective group.   I normally would not
ask such a question but I know you have a sense of humor.  

 

One other question, will Moshiach  be working with these 33 Rabbi's or doing
his own conversions?    

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:29 AM 


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
beaccepted in Israel

 

Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the
Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:

 

1. The answer to what I mentioned above..

2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very
tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the
entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will
be accepted in Israel).  

 

The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary
from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job
opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....

                     Hanoch

 

Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel 60 Converts are Missionaries

The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to
Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus - and are active missionaries. 

Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
anti-assimilation Yad L'Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
"shocked" at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.

An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
conversion rolls.

Yad L'Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more
than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after
their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted
as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into
religious schools.

The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the
legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members. 


_______________________________________________

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 19:23:20 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:23:20 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to 
	beaccepted in Israel
In-Reply-To: <56A7B70E2EE4433B9CFDA0C77DC6CD95@TESTPC>
References: <855590370907080728p4fe57061pb6213abe06dffbba@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8D13F3FCEE4811A772BB7B05C28CF8@TESTPC>
	<855590370907091816u3ab29117q267713cfcac3461@mail.gmail.com>
	<56A7B70E2EE4433B9CFDA0C77DC6CD95@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <855590370907121723r543c6737qb3fcb012f0855e54@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Marvin -

     Yes, but let me clarify it a bit, okay?   :-)  One of the OPINIONS of
the Sages (in other words, it is NOT Halacha - Jewish Law, but an opinion)
is that converts would no longer be accepted in the Messianic Age.  That is
based on the assumption, of course, that EVERYONE would want to jump on the
'Israel bandwagon,' so to speak.  And you are correct, that is referring to
gentiles.

     In terms of Lost Tribers (Ephraim/Shomron/Israel) - no, nothing is ever
mentioned in the Nevi'im (Prophets) about any kind of  "conversion."  My
PERSONAL belief is that when we reach the point of the full blown Messianic
Age, HaShem will let us know what we (collectively) need to do to
reunite.  I think we're ALL going to be a bit surprised when we find out....

   And yes, I too believe that repentance and return are the keys....and are
things we can all be working on, right now  :-)

    Take care Marvin!
                *   Hanoch
*
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:

>  Hanoch,
>
>
>
> In messianic times, the country of Israel will no longer except converts.
> However that refers to gentiles correct?   Because lost tribers are not in
> need of conversion are they?   Only need to do repentance  and return.    If
> I'm wrong please feel free to educate me. :)
>
>
>
> marvin
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:17 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
> beaccepted in Israel
>
>
>
> Hey Marvin -
>
>
>
>     I have not seen (and I don't expect that they'll publish it) those '17
> Magical Questions to Weed out Missionaries.'  :-)    But, I can assure you
> that I will find out many of them, just give me a few weeks on 'the
> ground.'
>
>
>
>    In Messianic Times, I think a LOT of religious functionaries (in a LOT
> of religions...) will be looking for a job.....
>
>
>
>    Our sages have taught that in Messianic Times, Israel will no longer
> accept converts.  I've wondered a lot lately, if the conversion fiasco in
> Israel is a sign of some kind.....
>
>            *      Hanoch*
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:
>
> Hanoch,
>
>
>
> Could you post a list of the 17 questions to the dialogue?   It would be
> interesting to see how we do as a collective group.   I normally would not
> ask such a question but I know you have a sense of humor.
>
>
>
> One other question, will Moshiach  be working with these 33 Rabbi?s or
> doing his own conversions?
>
>
>
> marvin
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:29 AM
>
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Why it's become SO difficult for Ephramites to
> beaccepted in Israel
>
>
>
> Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't
> readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a *connection *to
> the Hebrew people.  See the article below, and you'll see two things:
>
>
>
> 1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
>
> 2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult)
> very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in
> the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which
> will be accepted in Israel).
>
>
>
> The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian
> missionary from among sincere, potential converts.  Hmmmm...maybe there's a
> 'job opportunity' here!  I will be their worst nightmare....
>
>                     * Hanoch*
>
>
>
> *Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts**
> *by Hillel Fendel [image: 60 Converts are Missionaries]
>
> The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts
> to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus ? and are active missionaries.
>
> Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and
> anti-assimilation Yad L?Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief
> Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly
> ?shocked? at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
>
> An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz
> presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any
> prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either
> not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the
> lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the
> conversion rolls.
>
> Yad L?Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses
> of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during
> and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then
> accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were
> accepted into religious schools.
>
> The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated
> Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst
> whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions
> to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in
> the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From rossknichols at me.com  Sun Jul 12 19:34:39 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:34:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
Message-ID: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>

Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

Sent from my iPhone


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 19:42:24 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:42:24 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Regarding the Shomronim (Samaritans)]
In-Reply-To: <4A59918D.70604@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A59918D.70604@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370907121742t3f1fb589r5133966f7b79650a@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Joe!

    With the quality of the info on this site, no slicha is necessary!  :-)
Lot's of interesting stuff, all of which will likely lead to even further
study;  which of course, "is all good."
 Hope things are well - let's catch up soon, okay?  And thanks again for the
web site.

       *     Hanoch

*
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:32 AM, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Hanoch,
>
> slichah for my delay in forwarding this information to you.
> There were many distractions that I genuinely forgot to post this.
> I read this about a year ago and left it on the back burner.
> It is not the traditional view point but I found it extremely interesting.
> The home page is *http://www.houseofdavid.ca/ *which also includes some
> fascinating studies.
>
> b'Ahavat Yehudah v'Yisrael
> JOE.
> **                                                                                                                                                              &
> nbsp;
>                                                                                                                                                                     &nbsp
> ;         *Version 3.2
>
> August 20, 2005
>
> *The Origin and Nature of the Samaritans and their Relationship to Second
> Temple Jewish Sects*
>
>
>
> By David Steinberg
>
> david at adath-shalom.ca
>
> Home page http://www.houseofdavid.ca/
>
>
>
>
> 1. Setting the Stage ? From Israelite Religion to Judaism<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm>
>
> *1.1 Origin of Ancient Israel<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#origin>
> * *before the Deuteronomic Reform (c. 1000 - 620 BCE)*
>
> *1.2 **The Deuteronomic Reform<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#deut>
> * * (c. 620-609 BCE) see 2 Kings chapters 22-23; 2 Chronicles chapters
> 34-35*
>
> *1.3 **The Finalization, Promulgation and Acceptance of the Torah as THE
> word of God and Basis of Israel's Relationship with God<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#finalization>
> * * <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#1.2%20The%20transmutation%20of%20Israelite%20Religion%20Into%20Judaism>
> *
>
> 2. Who Are the Samaritans?<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#2._Who> 3.
> Origin of the Samaritans<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#origin3>
>
> 3.1 Jewish Version (from which springs the myth of the 10 Lost Tribes)<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#origin3>
> *3.2 Samaritan Version<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#3.2_Samaritan_Version>
> * *3.3 Critique <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Critique>
> *
>
> *3.4 What Really Happened?<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#what%20reall>
> *
>
> 4 Contact Between Jews and Samaritans<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#contact>
>
> 5 Samaritan Studies<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Studies> (see
> also my Introduction to *James A Montgomery?s Samaritans, the earliest
> Jewish sect: their history, theology, and literature*<http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm>
> *)*
>
> *5.1 What We Cannot Learn<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#5.1_What_We_Cannot_Learn>
> *
>
> *5.2 What We Can Learn<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#5.2_What_We_Can_Learn>
> *
>
> *5.3 Problems in Samaritan Studies<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#5.3_Problems_in_Samaritan_Studies>
> *
>
>
>
> Annex 1 - Some Thoughts of the Differing Fates of Samaritans and Jews<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Annex2>
>
> Annex 2 - Samaritans In the New Testament<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Annex3>
>
> Maps <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Maps>
>
> Select Bibliography and Links <http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#bib>
>
>
>
>
> 1. Setting the Stage ? From Israelite Religion to Judaism<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm>
>
> *1.1 Origin of Ancient Israel<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#origin>
> * *before the Deuteronomic Reform (c. 1000 - 620 BCE)*
>
>
>
> *1.2 **The Deuteronomic Reform<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#deut>
> * * (c. 620-609 BCE) see 2 Kings chapters 22-23; 2 Chronicles chapters
> 34-35*
>
> *1.3 **The Finalization, Promulgation and Acceptance of the Torah as THE
> word of God and Basis of Israel's Relationship with God<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/israelite_religion.htm#finalization>
> *
>   2. Who Are the Samaritans? The Samaritans[11]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn4> are
> an ancient Jewish sect, surviving to the present, which accepts the Torah as
> its only canonical scripture.  I call them Jewish because their religion is
> totally based on the Torah which, though compounded of northern (Kingdom of
> Israel) and southern (Kingdom of Judah) material, was given its shape and
> final form by Judean (priestly?) authors in Jerusalem or Babylonia.
> Ethnically, the Samaritans would seem to be descendants of the Joseph Tribes
> plus Levitical, Zadokite and, perhaps, other Israelite priestly elements.
> In addition, there was a small foreign, pagan upper class, settled in
> Samaria[12] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn5> by the
> Assyrians in the 7th and 8th centuries BCE, which would seem to have been
> rapidly assimilated by the Israelite population.
>
>
>
> The earliest extant Samaritan literature (Torah, Targum, Memar Marqa, and
> the earliest layer of their liturgy) shows them to have an uncompromising
> monotheism based strictly on the Torah.  Noja in Crown<http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#crown_samaritans>p. 808 passes on Macuch?s description of Marqa?s article?s of belief as ??
> one God, one Prophet, one holy Book, one holy Place??  Their creed in recent
> centuries is belief in:
>
> ?         One God
>
> ?         Moses as the one prophet (At times this belief is almost
> Christological (Marqa (4th century CE) ?He who believes in him believes in
> the Lord.)
>
> ?         The Torah
>
> ?         Mount Girizim
>
> ?         The Day of Judgement and Recompense (accepted as doctrine some
> time after 200 CE)
>
>
>
> To relate this to the basics of Rabbinic Judaism, probably Maimonides would
> only object to the sanctity of Mount Girizim.  Putting the boot on the other
> foot, of Maimonides? 13 Principles of Faith, the Samaritans would have
> trouble with #6 i.e. that there were prophets after Moses.  They also do not
> accept the legitimacy of the Oral Law.  In this they are at one with the
> Sadducees[13] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn6> and
> Kariates.
>
>
>
>  The Samaritans maintain, to the present, the Pascal sacrifice and the
> ancient functions of priests in teaching and interpreting the law.  Priests
> continue to provide overall leadership.  In the past, some Samaritan groups,
> (see Fossum in Crown<http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#crown_samaritans>)
> did establish lay leaderships alongside that of the priests but ultimately
> the Priests returned to sole leadership.
>
>
> 3. Origin of the Samaritans
>
>
>
> *3.1 Jewish Version (from which springs the myth of the 10 Lost Tribes)*
>
>
>
> The Israelites in the former Kingdom of Israel
>
>
>
> 2 Kings, chapter 15:29
>
>
>
> In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria came
> and captured Ijon, Abel-beth-maacah, Janoah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and
> Galilee, all the land of Naphtali; and he carried the people captive to
> Assyria.
>
>
>
> 2 Kings, chapter 17:5-6
>
>
>
> 5: Then the king of Assyria invaded all the land and came to Samaria, and
> for three years he besieged it.
>
> 6: In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria captured Samaria, and he
> carried the Israelites away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah, and on the
> Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
>
>
>
> 2 Kings, chapter 17:22-34
>
>
>
> 22: The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jeroboam did ?
>
> 23: until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all
> his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to
> Assyria until this day.
>
> 24: And the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva,
> Hamath, and Sephar-va'im, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead
> of the people of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria, and dwelt in
> its cities.
>
> 25: And at the beginning of their dwelling there, they did not fear the
> LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which killed some of them.
>
> 26: So the king of Assyria was told, "The nations which you have carried
> away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of
> the land; therefore he has sent lions among them, and behold, they are
> killing them, because they do not know the law of the god of the land."
>
> 27: Then the king of Assyria commanded, "Send there one of the priests whom
> you carried away thence; and let him go and dwell there, and teach them the
> law of the god of the land."
>
> 28: So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and
> dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.
>
> 29: But every nation still made gods of its own, and put them in the
> shrines of the high places which the Samarians had made, every nation in the
> cities in which they dwelt;
>
> 30: the men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, the men of Cuth (also spelled
> Cuthah, Kuth, Kuthah) made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima,
>
> 31: and the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned
> their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of
> Sepharvaim.
>
> 32: They also feared the LORD, and appointed from among themselves all
> sorts of people as priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in
> the shrines of the high places.
>
> 33: So they feared the LORD but also served their own gods, after the
> manner of the nations from among whom they had been carried away.
>
> 34: To this day they do according to the former manner. They do not fear
> the LORD, and they do not follow the statutes or the ordinances or the law
> or the commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he
> named Israel.
>
>
>
> Basically the view of our text is that all the Israelites of the Kingdom of
> Israel were carried off into exile and replaced by foreigners who developed
> a syncretistic Israelite-Pagan religion. Josephus tells a similar story -
>
>
>
> Josephus[14] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn7>(Antiquities of the Jews Book IX CHAPTER 148)
> [15] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn8> states ?
>
>
>
> 1. WHEN Shalmaneser, the king of Assyria, had it told him, that [Hoshea]
> the king of Israel had sent privately to So, the king of Egypt, desiring his
> assistance against him, he was very angry, and made an expedition against
> Samaria, in the seventh year of the reign of Hoshea; but when he was not
> admitted [into the city] by the king, (24) he besieged Samaria three years,
> and took it by force in the ninth year of the reign of Hoshea, and in the
> seventh year of Hezekiah, king of Jerusalem, and quite demolished the
> government of the Israelites, and transplanted all the people into Media and
> Persia among whom he took king Hoshea alive; and when he had removed these
> people out of this their land he transplanted other nations out of Cuthah, a
> place so called, (for there is [still] a river of that name in Persia,) into
> Samaria, and into the country of the Israelites. So the ten tribes of the
> Israelites were removed out of Judea nine hundred and forty-seven years
> after their forefathers were come out of the land of Egypt, and possessed
> themselves of the country, but eight hundred years after Joshua had been
> their leader, and, as I have already observed, two hundred and forty years,
> seven months, and seven days after they had revolted from Rehoboam, the
> grandson of David, and had given the kingdom to Jeroboam. And such a
> conclusion overtook the Israelites, when they had transgressed the laws, and
> would not hearken to the prophets, who foretold that this calamity would
> come upon them, if they would not leave off their evil doings. What gave
> birth to these evil doings, was that sedition which they raised against
> Rehoboam, the grandson of David, when they set up Jeroboam his servant to be
> their king, when, by sinning against God, and bringing them to imitate his
> bad example, made God to be their enemy, while Jeroboam underwent that
> punishment which he justly deserved?.
>
>
>
> 3. But now the Cutheans, who removed into Samaria, (for that is the name
> they have been called by to this time, because they were brought out of the
> country called Cuthah, which is a country of Persia, and there is a river of
> the same name in it,) each of them, according to their nations, which were
> in number five, brought their own gods into Samaria, and by worshipping
> them, as was the custom of their own countries, they provoked Almighty God
> to be angry and displeased at them, for a plague seized upon them, by which
> they were destroyed; and when they found no cure for their miseries, they
> learned by the oracle that they ought to worship Almighty God, as the method
> for their deliverance. So they sent ambassadors to the king of Assyria, and
> desired him to send them some of those priests of the Israelites whom he had
> taken captive. And when he thereupon sent them, and the people were by them
> taught the laws, and the holy worship of God, they worshipped him in a
> respectful manner, and the plague ceased immediately; and indeed they
> continue to make use of the very same customs to this very time, and are
> called in the Hebrew tongue Cutlans (sic), but in the Greek tongue
> Samaritans. And when they see the Jews in prosperity, they pretend that they
> are changed, and allied to them, and call them kinsmen, as though they were
> derived from Joseph, and had by that means an original alliance with them;
> but when they see them falling into a low condition, they say they are no
> way related to them, and that the Jews have no right to expect any kindness
> or marks of kindred from them, but they declare that they are sojourners,
> that come from other countries.
>
>
>
> In Rabbinic literature, as in the passage from Josephus quoted above, the
> Samaritans are mostly called Kuthim - i.e. people from Kuth/Cuthah.  They
> are frequently discussed in the Talmud, sometimes being treated as Jews,
> sometimes as gentiles but mostly as a separate category in between.  There
> is a Minor Tractate (Kuthim) just about them. This tractate ends with ?
>
>
>
> ?When may they be received into the Jewish community?  When they have
> renounced Har Girizim and acknowledged Jerusalem and the resurrection of the
> dead.?
>
>
>
> *3.2 Samaritan Version*
>
>
>
> All Israel was united until the reign of the High Priest Uzzi of the line
> of Aaron.  At that time the false High Priest Eli usurped Uzzi?s position
> and moved the religious center from Sechem to Shiloh.  From that time until
> the present the Samaritans claim to have maintained an unbroken priestly
> succession and, though a minority within Israel, to be the True Israel
> untainted by the paganism and quasi-paganism later rife in the kingdoms of
> Israel and Judah.  In time, they claim the Israelite community split into 4
> parts:
>
>
>
>    -
>
>    The True Israel i.e. the Samaritans, with Sechem as their cultic
>    center.  This group consisted of parts of the Joseph tribes, Benjamin, Levi
>    and the Uzzi priesthood;
>    -
>
>    The Jews, consisting of the Judeans and some Benjaminites with
>    Jerusalem as their cultic center;
>    -
>
>    Israelites who became idolaters centred in Pirathon in Ephraim.
>    -
>
>    Followers of Jeroboam with Samaria as their center.
>    -
>
>    With the Assyrian conquest the True Israel (i.e. the Samaritans) were
>    exiled and then allowed to return and re-established sacrificial worship on
>    Mt. Gerizim.
>
>
>
> *3.3 Critique*
>
>
>
> The Samaritan version is critically unacceptable because:
>
>
>
>    - There is no trace, in any source except medieval and modern Samaritan
>    chronicles, of the Uzzi-Eli split;
>
>
>
>    - There is no mention of a separate Samaritan religious community in
>    Biblical or other ancient records;
>
>
>
>    - For a long period, Sechem was uninhabited precisely during the period
>    when nearby Samaria was the local Israelite center;
>
>
>
>    - Samaritan religion is based on the Torah with minor variation in
>    wording (the most substantive ones inject mention of Gerizim into the text)
>    plus slightly different spelling conventions (orthography) etc.  However,
>    the Torah as a unified work is a Judean, not a Northern Israelite, product
>    though it does combine Northern and Southern traditions; and,
>
>
>
>    - Cross and Purvis have shown that the Torah script, still used by the
>    Samaritans, developed directly from the Jewish Palaeo-Hebrew script of the
>    late Hashmonean times i.e. approximately 150-100 BCE. It is clear that the
>    form of the Samaritan script cannot be explained as a significantly later or
>    earlier departure from the mainstream Jewish Palaeo-Hebrew script.  A
>    similar, though slightly weaker case, can be made for the spelling
>    conventions of the Samaritan Torah.
>
>
>
> The Jewish version is critically unacceptable because:
>
>
>
> There are no historically reliable records of even vestiges of paganism in
> Samaritanism;
>
>
>
> The Jewish version, based on 2 Kings chapters 15 and 17, pictures a
> complete exile of the population of the former Kingdom of Israel including
> Samaria.  We know that this is a false picture because:
>
>
>
>    - The Assyrians, who did not tend to minimize their acts, claimed only
>    to have exiled a few tens of thousand of the inhabitants of Samaria[16]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn9>
>    ;
>
>
>
>    - in the Post-Exilic period, Galilee (corresponding to the former
>    tribal territories of most of Asher, Naphtali, Zebulun and Issachar) and
>    Gilead, known in Roman times as Perea, (corresponding to the formal tribal
>    territories of most of Gad, Reuben and Manasseh, east of the Jordan River)
>    were partly or mostly Jewish as was Judea which consisted of the
>    northern part of the former Kingdom of Judah plus contiguous territories to
>    the north i.e. (a) the northern part of the tribal territories of Benjamin
>    which had been the southern border land of the Kingdom of Israel; and, (2)
>    all of the tribal territories of Ephraim except for a strip in the north
>    bordering on the tribal territory of Manasseh west of the Jordan River. At
>    that time, what I will call the Proto-Samaritans (see below) occupied an
>    area corresponding to the southern part of the tribal territory of Manasseh
>    west of the Jordan River.)  In addition, personal names make clear that the
>    governors of both Samaria and Gilead, in the early Post-Exilic period were
>    Yahwist.
>
>
>
>    - Some Biblical texts, describing the situation in the north after the
>    exiles recorded in the earlier quoted passages, presume that the area of the
>    former Kingdom of Israel west of the Jordan River was still inhabited by
>    Israelites.  Specifically:
>
>
>
> 2 Chronicles chapter 30:1-31:6
>
>
>
> 30:1: Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to
> Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at
> Jerusalem, to keep the Passover to the LORD the God of Israel?.
>
>
>
> 5: So they decreed to make a proclamation throughout all Israel, from
> Beer-sheba to Dan, that the people should come and keep the Passover to the
> LORD the God of Israel, at Jerusalem; for they had not kept it in great
> numbers as prescribed.
>
> 6: So couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with letters from the
> king and his princes, as the king had commanded, saying, "O people of
> Israel, return to the LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he
> may turn again to the remnant of you who have escaped from the hand of the
> kings of Assyria.
>
> 7: Do not be like your fathers and your brethren, who were faithless to the
> LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them desolation, as you see.
>
> 8: Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to
> the LORD, and come to his sanctuary, which he has sanctified for ever, and
> serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
>
> 9: For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will find
> compassion with their captors, and return to this land. For the LORD your
> God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if
> you return to him."
>
> 10: So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim
> and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun; but they laughed them to scorn, and
> mocked them.
>
> 11: Only a few men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves
> and came to Jerusalem.?
>
>
>
> 25: The whole assembly of Judah, and the priests and the Levites, and the
> whole assembly that came out of Israel, and the sojourners who came out of
> the land of Israel, and the sojourners who dwelt in Judah, rejoiced.
>
> 26: So there was great joy in Jerusalem, for since the time of Solomon the
> son of David king of Israel there had been nothing like this in Jerusalem?.
>
>
>
> 31:1: Now when all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out
> to the cities of Judah and broke in pieces the pillars and hewed down the
> Asherim and broke down the high places and the altars throughout all Judah
> and Benjamin, and in Ephraim and Manasseh, until they had destroyed them
> all. Then all the people of Israel returned to their cities, every man to
> his possession?.
>
>
>
> 5: As soon as the command was spread abroad, the people of Israel gave in
> abundance the first fruits of grain, wine, oil, honey, and of all the
> produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of
> everything.
>
> 6: And the people of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah also
> brought in the tithe of cattle and sheep, and the dedicated things which had
> been consecrated to the LORD their God, and laid them in heaps.
>
>
>
> 2 Kings, chapter 23:1-20
>
>
>
> 1: Then the king sent, and all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem were
> gathered to him.
>
> 2: And the king went up to the house of the LORD, and with him all the men
> of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests and the
> prophets, all the people, both small and great; and he read in their hearing
> all the words of the book of the covenant which had been found in the house
> of the LORD.
>
> 3: And the king stood by the pillar and made a covenant before the LORD, to
> walk after the LORD and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his
> statutes, with all his heart and all his soul, to perform the words of this
> covenant that were written in this book; and all the people joined in the
> covenant.
>
> 4: And the king commanded Hilkiah, the high priest, and the priests of the
> second order, and the keepers of the threshold, to bring out of the temple
> of the LORD all the vessels made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host
> of heaven; he burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron, and
> carried their ashes to Bethel.
>
> 5: And he deposed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had
> ordained to burn incense in the high places at the cities of Judah and round
> about Jerusalem; those also who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and the
> moon, and the constellations, and all the host of the heavens.
>
> 6: And he brought out the Asherah from the house of the LORD, outside
> Jerusalem, to the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and beat
> it to dust and cast the dust of it upon the graves of the common people.
>
> 7: And he broke down the houses of the male cult prostitutes which were in
> the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the Asherah.
>
> 8: And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled
> the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to
> Beer-sheba; and he broke down the high places of the gates that were at the
> entrance of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on one's
> left at the gate of the city.
>
> 9: However, the priests of the high places did not come up to the altar of
> the LORD in Jerusalem, but they ate unleavened bread among their brethren.
>
> 10: And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom,
> that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech....
>
>
>
> 15: Moreover the altar at Bethel, the high place erected by Jeroboam the
> son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, that altar with the high place he
> pulled down and he broke in pieces its stones, crushing them to dust; also
> he burned the Asherah.
>
> 16: And as Josiah turned, he saw the tombs there on the mount; and he sent
> and took the bones out of the tombs, and burned them upon the altar, and
> defiled it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God
> proclaimed, who had predicted these things. ?
>
>
>
> 19: And all the shrines also of the high places that were in the cities of
> Samaria, which kings of Israel had made, provoking the LORD to anger, Josiah
> removed; he did to them according to all that he had done at Bethel.
>
> 20: And he slew all the priests of the high places who were there, upon the
> altars, and burned the bones of men upon them. Then he returned to
> Jerusalem.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2 Chronicles, chapter 35:16-18
>
>
>
> 16: So all the service of the LORD was prepared that day, to keep the
> passover and to offer burnt offerings on the altar of the LORD, according to
> the command of King Josiah.
>
> 17: And the people of Israel who were present kept the passover at that
> time, and the feast of unleavened bread seven days.
>
> 18: No passover like it had been kept in Israel since the days of Samuel
> the prophet; none of the kings of Israel had kept such a passover as was
> kept by Josiah, and the priests and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel
> who were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
>
>
>
> Jeremiah, chapter 41:3-5
>
>
>
> 3: Ishmael also slew all the Jews who were with Gedaliah at Mizpah, and the
> Chaldean soldiers who happened to be there.
>
> 4: On the day after the murder of Gedaliah, before any one knew of it,
>
> 5: eighty men arrived from Shechem and Shiloh and Samaria, with their
> beards shaved and their clothes torn, and their bodies gashed, bringing
> cereal offerings and incense to present at the temple of the LORD
>
>
>
>
>
> It is noteworthy that the main object of Josiah?s attack in the north was
> Beth El which is interesting from three points of view:
>
>
>
>    - It was not a normal private or local bamah (high place) but was a
>    Kingdom of Israel state shrine.  We should recall, that until the
>    Deuteronomic reform under Josiah, local bamot were legitimate and normal in
>    all parts of Israel and Judah.  In all probability they varied from purely
>    Yahwist to fairly syncretistic, like the Jerusalem temple, and probably Beth
>    El, before Josiah, to highly syncretistic like the religious practice
>    reflected in the Kuntilat Ajrud inscriptions and the Elephantine letters.
>
>
>
>    - It appears to have been tolerated, or even support, by the Assyrians
>    after the Assyrian exile of the Israelite upper classes from the Kingdom of
>    Israel;
>
>
>
>    - There would seem to have been a continuity of custom as implied in 2
>    Kings, chapter 17
>
>
>
> 22: The people of Israel walked in all the sins which Jeroboam did; they
> did not depart from them,
>
> 23: until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all
> his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to
> Assyria until this day.
>
> 24: And the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva,
> Hamath, and Sephar-va'im, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead
> of the people of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria, and dwelt in
> its cities.
>
> 25: And at the beginning of their dwelling there, they did not fear the
> LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which killed some of them.
>
> 26: So the king of Assyria was told, "The nations which you have carried
> away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of
> the land; therefore he has sent lions among them, and behold, they are
> killing them, because they do not know the law of the god of the land."
>
> 27: Then the king of Assyria commanded, "Send there one of the priests whom
> you carried away thence; and let him go and dwell there, and teach them the
> law of the god of the land."
>
> 28: So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and
> dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.
>
> 29: But every nation still made gods of its own, and put them in the
> shrines of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in
> the cities in which they dwelt;
>
> 32: They also feared the LORD, and appointed from among themselves all
> sorts of people as priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in
> the shrines of the high places.
>
> 33: So they feared the LORD but also served their own gods, after the
> manner of the nations from among whom they had been carried away.
>
>
>
> * It was later in the Jewish, not Samaritan, area of the country.
>
>
>
>
>
> *3.4 What Really Happened?<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn10>
> [1 <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn10>7]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn10>
> *
>
>
>
> To attempt a reconstruction of the origin of the Samaritans it is necessary
> to go far back into Israel?s history and to bear in mind that in a highly
> religious age, movements and tensions that might have been originally
> geographic, ethnic, political or personal get expressed through religion and
> cult.[18] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn11>
>
>
>
> Ancient Biblical and other Semitic genealogies are less a means of
> describing ethnic origins and relationships, than of describing the
> political and social relations of groups of people at the time of
> composition of the genealogies11[19]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn12>.
>  A glance at the genealogical chart (below) will indicate the subjectively
> felt degree of relationship between the tribes at a very early stage, while
> the maps of tribal territories shows their spatial arrangement much later,
> probably late in the period of the Judges.
>
>
>
> To begin to understand the subjective feeling of closeness and
> superiority/inferiority between the tribes, it is necessary to bear in mind
> that Rachel and Leah were full wives while Bilhah and Zilpah were
> servant-wives. The children of the servants were considered to be ?second
> class? children of their respective mistresses.  Thus Dan and Naphtali would
> be second class children of Rachel.  Rachel was Jacob?s second and younger
> but favourite wife and her biological children, Joseph and Benjamin, were
> Jacob?s favourite children.  Rachel?s being favoured, is a variation on a
> repeating pattern in Genesis of the first-born being displaced by later born
> children e.g. Isaac displacing Ishmael; Jacob displacing Esau; Ephraim
> displacing Manasseh; the tribe of Judah becoming dominant over those of
> Reuben and Simeon.  The order of birth probably indicated the tribes?
> relative importance at an early period of Israelite pre-history.
>
>
>
>
>
> Birth Order
>
> Leah
>
> Older sister of Rachel
>
> Zilpah
>
> Servant of Leah
>
> Rachel
>
> Younger Sister of Leah
>
> Bilhah
>
> Servant of Rachel
>
> 1
>
> Reuben
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2
>
> Simeon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3
>
> Levi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 4
>
> Judah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dan
>
> 6
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Naphtali
>
> 7
>
>
>
> Gad
>
>
>
>
>
> 8
>
>
>
> Asher
>
>
>
>
>
> 9
>
> Issachar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 10
>
> Zebulun
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 11
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (father of Manasseh and Ephriam)
>
>
>
> 12
>
>
>
>
>
> Benjamin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The map of the tribal allotments
> <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn12>[20]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#geographic>
> .and the Bible narrative indicates a completely different situation from
> that of the genealogies.    Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - Joseph has split into Ephraim and Manasseh.  Manasseh is further
>    split into west and east of the Jordan branches;
>    - Simeon, formerly senior to Judah, has, along with other elements such
>    as the Kenites, been absorbed into Judah;
>    - Reuben, once the most senior tribe, has virtually ceased to exist as
>    a tribe; and, Judah is not contiguous with a single Leah-Zilpah tribe.
>
>
>
> In the time of the Judges (1100-1025 BCE) we, in fact, have the beginning
> of the Samaritan Schism.  However, it is not a religious schism.  We find
> the tribes broken into 2 major and 2 minor blocks:
>
>
>
> Major:
>
>    - Southern consisting of Judah which had assimilated Simeon
>    - Central consisting of Ephraim, Manasseh west of the Jordan and
>    Benjamin
>
> Minor
>
>    - Eastern (Gilead) ? Gad, which had swallowed Reuben, and Manasseh east
>    of the Jordan
>    - Northern (Galilee) ? Asher, Zebulun, Issachar and Naphtali
>
>
>
> The northern block was separated from the central block by unconquered
> Canaanite city states until about 1000 BCE.
>
>
>
> At the splitting of the kingdoms (c. 928 BCE), upon the death of Solomon,
> we find that Judah and most of Benjamin form the Kingdom of Judah while the
> remaining tribal territory are included in the Kingdom of Israel. The
> Kingdom of Israel was dominated by Ephraim-Manasseh.
>
>
>
> Between the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem (587 BCE) and the start of
> the Maccabean revolt (167 BCE) the only reliable historical records are
> those contained in the biblical descriptions of two vital episodes:
>
>
>
>    - The return from exile and rebuilding of the temple (late 6th century
>    BCE)
>    - The establishment of the legal religious and security systems under
>    Ezra and Nehemiah.
>
>
>
> In the early Maccabean period, when our lack of documentation comes to a
> sudden end, we find that Galilee and the eastern region (Gilead) have
> attached themselves to Jerusalem as has most of the former territory of
> Ephraim, leaving only the rump of the central block as Samaritan.  The
> attitude of at least some Jews to the Samaritans at this time is expressed
> in two documents:
>
>
>
> a) Ben Sira, writing about 185 BCE, just before the persecution that led to
> the Maccabean uprising, wrote
>
>
>
> ???? ???? ??? ????
>
> ???????? ????? ??
>
>
>
> ????? ???? ?????
>
> ???? ??? ??? ????
>
>
>
> My whole being loathes two nations
>
> The third is not even a people
>
>
>
> Those who live in Seir and Philistia
>
> And the degenerate folk who dwell in Shechem (i.e. the Samaritans)
>
>
>
> It would seem that Ben Sira?s attitude is similar to that presupposed in
> the Gospel stories
> <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Annex3>two or three
> centuries later.
>
>
>
> Second Maccabees (2 Macabees 5:21-6:2), written after the persecution,
> states
>
>
>
> ? Antiochus ? left governors to oppress the people at Jerusalem..and at
> Gerizim? the king sent an Athenian senator to compel the Jews to forsake the
> laws of their ancestors ?also to pollute the temple in Jerusalem and to call
> it the temple of Olympian Zeus, and to call the one in Gerizim the temple of
> Zeus-the-Friend-of-Strangers, as did the people who lived in that place.
>
>
>
> The text implies that the Samaritan temple was already quasi-pagan and
> that, unlike the Jews, the Samaritans did not resist the Hellenizing of
> their temple and the banning of Torah law.  Of course, we have no way of
> knowing how contemporaneous Samaritans would have described the situation.
>
>
>
> What led to the development of the Samaritans, sacrificing on Mt. Girizim
> and socially and religiously estranged from the Jews, out of the mass of
> politically-socially disaffected Samarians?
>
>
>
> My belief is that the small numbers exiled from the former territory of the
> Joseph tribes and the foreign upper class implanted into Samaria had little
> to do with it.  It has been shown by Coggins[21]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn13> and
> Anderson[22]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#The%20Keepers> that
> there are no passages, in the Hebrew Bible, that can be convincingly shown
> to refer to the Samaritans.  A few things are clear:
>
>
>
>    - Ezra-Nehemiah considered that only the Jews who returned from Babylon
>    to be pure and fully acceptable.  Every Israelite inhabitant of the land,
>    who had not been exiled<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn14a>
>    [23] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Ammei-Ha-Aretz> (??
>    ????)   was suspect or considered to be a non-Jew.  This was the case
>    regardless of whether they practiced a syncretistic cult.  This was the
>    attitude about the time of the proclamation and acceptance of the Torah
>    within the restored Jerusalem community.
>
>
>
>    - The rulers of Samaria, and Gilead-Perea, for personal, political and
>    possibly historical reasons attempted to block Nehemiah?s reestablishment of
>    Jerusalem as an Israelite cultic-political-social center.
>
>
>
>    - The name of the Gilead leader, Tobiah, and the name of the son of the
>    Samarian leader, Delaiah, indicate that they were both Yahwists. As we know,
>    the Tobiads soon became heavily involved in Jerusalem, leaving the
>    Samarians, not yet Samaritans, out in the cold.
>
>
>
> We may speculate that the Samarians, long used to dominating the Israelites
> of Galilee and Gilead, and long the main rival of Judah, felt most repelled
> by the thought of complete subservience to Jerusalem; whereas, the Galilean
> and Gilead Israelites probably felt that by giving allegiance to Jerusalem
> them would be escaping from Samarian domination, renewing old ethnic links
> (Leah-Zilpah) and that Jerusalem was far enough away not to be able to
> interfere in their internal affairs.
>
>
>
> Religious Background to the Origin of the Samaritans
>
>
>
> Josiah, when he proclaimed Deuteronomy (or its core) as the law of the
> land, and destroyed all the other B*amot* in Judah and in the central part
> of the former Kingdom of Israel, was, in fact, staking a claim for Jerusalem
> as the ONE legitimate sacrificial cult site.
>
>
>
> As an aside, we could mention that Ezekiel was less specific about the site
> of the temple.  Perhaps the Northern originators of the Deuteronomic
> traditions would have envisaged a site further north such as Beth El or Mt.
> Girizim.  Mt. Girizim and nearby Shechem, unlike Jerusalem, figure
> prominently in the early history of Israel.  Thus, it is hardly surprising
> that the Samaritan chose Mt. Girizim, which unlike Beth El or Jerusalem lay
> within their territory, as the one legitimate cult site.
>
>
>
> Before the acceptance of Deuteronomy as the word of God, it would not have
> been schismatic to set up another Yahwist temple offering animal sacrifice.
> However, after the acceptance of Deuteronomy as God?s Torah, Israelites
> could only establish a temple within the country by denying the validity of
> any other such temple.
>
>
>
> About 350 BCE the situation was:
>
>
>
>    - The Temple in Jerusalem had been rebuilt with the returned Babylonian
>    exiles rejecting all pleas for participation by Israelites who had not gone
>    into exile;
>
>
>
>    - There was an increasing trend for the Judean returnees to reject
>    marriage, or any other social, religious, or political relationships outside
>    to their group;
>
>
>
>    - In part because of the rejection of relations with Samarian
>    Israelites, by the Babylonian returnees, there was some political animosity
>    between Jerusalem and Samaria;
>
>
>
>    - There was a developing relationship between the Tobiads, who led the
>    Gilead Israelites, and the Jerusalem priesthood;
>
>
>
>    - The Torah (Genesis-Deuteronomy) had been promulgated by Ezra and was
>    becoming accepted as THE foundation of faith and national
>    self-identification by all non-assimilated Israelites inside and outside of
>    the homeland; and,
>
>
>
>    - Syncretism (i.e. mixed pagan and Israelite religion) had probably
>    disappeared among non-assimilated Israelites in the land.
>
>
>
> In Antiquities book 11, Josephus records and incident (see below), that can
> explain the origin of the Samaritan Temple whose erection probably took
> place soon after Alexander?s conquest of the country in 331 BCE.  If you
> strip away the obvious anti-Samaritan polemics, I consider that this story
> is historically reliable.  Josephus, a Jerusalem priest, would be unlikely
> to invent a story which implies that the only true Zadokite priests in
> office, within the homeland, in his day were the Samaritan priesthood which
> can be assumed to have continued sacrificing after the destruction of their
> temple as they do to the present day.  It should be recalled that the
> Hashmonean family displaced the Jerusalem Zadokite priesthood during the
> Maccabean uprising.
>
>
>
>
>
> Antiquities of the Jews (Book XI chapter 7-8)
>
>
>
> 2. Now when John had departed this life, his son Jaddua succeeded in the
> high priesthood. He had a brother, whose name was Manasseh. :Now there was
> one Sanballat, who was sent by Darius, the last king [of Persia], into
> Samaria. He was a Cutheam by birth; of which stock were the Samaritans also.
> This man knew that the city Jerusalem was a famous city, and that their
> kings had given a great deal of trouble to the Assyrians, and the people of
> Celesyria; so that he willingly gave his daughter, whose name was Nicaso, in
> marriage to Manasseh, as thinking this alliance by marriage would be a
> pledge and security that the nation of the Jews should continue their
> good-will to him.
>
>
>
> CHAPTER 8.
>
>
>
> ABOUT this time it was that Philip, king of Macedon, was treacherously
> assaulted and slain ? and his son Alexander succeeded him ?
>
>
>
> Now[24] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn16> the
> elders of Jerusalem, resenting the fact that the brother of the high priest
> Jaddus was sharing the high priesthood while married to a foreigner, rose up
> against him, for they considered this marriage to be a stepping-stone for
> those who might wish to transgress the laws about taking wives and that this
> would be the beginning of with foreigners. They believed, moreover, that
> their former captivity and misfortunes had been caused by some who had erred
> in marrying and taking wives who were not of their own country.  They
> therefore told Manassas either to divorce his wife or not to approach the
> altar.  And, as the high priest shared the indignation of the people and
> kept his brother from the altar, Manassas went to his father-in-law,
> Sanballetes, and said that while he loved his daughter Nikaso, nevertheless
> the priestly office was the highest in the nation and always belonged to his
> family, and that therefore he did not wish to be deprived of it on her
> account. But Sanballetes promised not only to preserve the priesthood for
> him but also to procure for him the power and office of high priest and to
> appoint him governor of all the places over which he ruled, if he were
> willing to live with his daughter; and he said that he would build a temple
> similar to that in Jerusalem, upon Mount Garizein (i.e. Mt. Girizim) - this
> is the highest of the mountains near Samaria -, and undertook to do these
> things with the consent of King Darius. Elated by these promises, Manassas
> stayed with Sanballetes, believing that he would obtain the high priesthood
> as the gift of Darius, for Sanballetes, as it happened, was now an old man.
> But, as many priests and Israelites were involved in such marriages, great
> was the confusion which seized the people of Jerusalem. For all these
> deserted to Manassas, and Sanballetes supplied them with money and with land
> for cultivation and assigned them places wherein to dwell, in every way
> seeking to win favour for his son-in-law?.
>
>
>
> As Alexander received him in friendly fashion, Sanballetes now felt
> confident about his plan and addressed him on that subject, explaining that
> he had a son-in-law Manassas, who was the brother of Jaddus, the high priest
> of the Jews, and that there were many others of his countrymen with him who
> now wished to build a temple in the territory subject to him. It was also an
> advantage to the king, he said, that the power of the Jews should be divided
> in two, in order that the nation might not, in the event of revolution, be
> of one mind and stand together and so give trouble to the kings as it had
> formerly given to the Assyrian rulers. When, therefore, Alexander gave his
> consent, Sanballetes brought all his energy to bear and built the temple and
> appointed Manassas high priest, considering this to be the greatest
> distinction which his daughter's descendents could have.  But Sanballetes
> died after seven months had been spent on the siege of Tyre and two on that
> of Gaza, ?
>
>
>
> And so, having regulated these matters at Jerusalem, Alexander marched off
> against the neighbouring cities. But all those peoples to whom he came
> received him in a friendly spirit, whereupon the Samaritans, whose chief
> city at that time was Shechem, which lay beside Mount Garizein and was
> inhabited by apostates from the Jewish nation, seeing that Alexander had so
> signally honoured the Jews, decided to profess themselves Jews. For such is
> the nature of the Samaritans, as we have already shown somewhere above. When
> the Jews are in difficulties, they deny that they have any kinship with
> them, thereby indeed admitting the truth, but whenever they see some
> splendid bit of good fortune come to them, they suddenly grasp at the
> connexion with them, saying that they are related to them and tracing their
> line back to Ephraim and Manasseh, the descendants of Joseph?
>
>
>
> Now when Alexander was dead, the government was parted among his
> successors, but the temple upon Mount Gerizzim remained. And if any one were
> accused by those of Jerusalem of having eaten things common (24) or of
> having broken the sabbath, or of any other crime of the like nature, he fled
> away to the Shechemites, and said that he was accused unjustly. About this
> time it was that Jaddua the high priest died, and Onias his son took the
> high priesthood. This was the state of the affairs of the people of
> Jerusalem at this time.
>
>
>
> Thus, while the Samaritans claim that their priests were Aaronite, they
> would seem to have been Zadokites from Jerusalem!
>
>
>
> With the acceptance of the Torah, and the founding of their temple, we can
> now call those who supported that temple Samaritans. The establishment of
> their own temple probably relieved some of the frustrations of the
> Samaritans but, in the light of Deuteronomy, it could not but cause a major
> split with Jerusalem.
>
>
>
> Manasseh and his followers doubtless took with them the current version of
> the Torah which was similar, but not identical to the Samaritan Pentateuch
> which was a sectarian  recension of a Jewish text of the second century
> BCE.  They also would have transplanted all or most of the traditions<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#bowman>of the Jerusalem temple, as they existed in 330 BCE, to the new temple on
> Mt. Girizim.  Thus the Girizim temple, though occupying the site of a very
> ancient Israelite shrine, does not represent a continuation of local
> traditions or the traditions of the old Kingdom of Israel state shrine at
> Beth El.  Rather it was an offshoot of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in all
> of its traditions except site.  It appears that the Zadokite priestly line
> continued to oversee the pascal sacrifices and to minister to the Samaritans
> until 1624[25] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn17> when
> it died out and the Levites took over.
>
>
>
> After the founding of the Samaritan temple, in the late 4th century BCE,
> the next reliable mention of the Samaritans is in the passage form the
> Second Book of Maccabees quoted, in excerpt, above.
>
>
>
> As already noted, with the Maccabean victory they replaced the Zadokites as
> High Priests in Jerusalem.  However, the Zadokites held on at the periphery:
>
>
>
>    - As Samaritan High Priests until 1624;
>    - As the controlling element in the Dead Sea Sect until its demise in
>    the first war against Rome (c. 67 CE);
>    - As priests of the Jewish temple of Liontopolis (Tel el Yehudiyeh) c.
>    162 BCE-73 CE[26]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn18>
>
>
>
> In the ensuing period, the Jewish king John Hyrcanus, destroyed the
> Samaritan temple (128 BCE).  At about the same time, a current Jewish Torah
> text, one of a number of slightly varying text types then in circulation,
> had introduced into it textual changes supporting the primacy of Girizim.
> The resulting Torah text, together with the then current Jewish
> Paleo-Hebraic script, then started its independent development which has
> continued to the present.  During the same period the classical late Second
> Temple sects ? Sadducees, Pharisees[27]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn19>,
> Essenes ? took shape.
>
>
>
>  Even as late as the end of the Second Temple period, the Samaritans shared
> many characteristics and customs with other Jewish groups, especially the
> Sadducees, while being set off, from other sects, by their rejection of
> Jerusalem.    However, after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE,
> with the disappearance of all the groups except the Pharisaic Proto-Rabbis,
> the group farthest removed from the Samaritans in almost every way, they
> clearly had become a religion apart.  Just in passing, we could enumerate a
> few of the differences and similarities of known Second Temple Jewish sects
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Pharisaic Proto-Rabbis
>
> Sadducees*[28]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn20>
>
> Dead Sea Sect (probably = Essenes)
>
> Samaritans
>
> Holy site Jerusalem
>
> Holy site Jerusalem
>
> Holy site Jerusalem
>
> Holy site Mt. Girizim
>
> Law expands to cover every possible situation through the Oral Law
> considered given by God on Sinai
>
> Carry out the Law of the Torah and what?s not covered by the written law is
> personal or group choice. No Oral Law from Sinai.
>
> Everything not in the written law covered by the rules of the group. No
> Oral Law from Sinai.
>
> Carry out the Law of the Torah and what?s not covered by the written law is
> personal or group choice. No Oral Law from Sinai.
>
> Resurrection and Judgement Day, Messiah and World to Come
>
> None known
>
> Neither mention nor denial in sectarian writings[29]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn21>
>
> These doctrines accepted by Samaritans after 200 CE
>
> Fulfilling the Commandments was most important ? no creedal statement
>
> Cultic correctness was probably of more importance than fulfilling the
> Commandments. Unknown if they had creedal statement.
>
> Cultic correctness of most importance
>
> Cultic correctness of most importance.  Statement and belief in creed more
> important than fulfilling the Commandments.
>
> Rabbinate of key importance ? and aristocracy of knowledge.  Priests are
> vestigial.
>
> Priests provide leadership
>
> Priests provide leadership though at end of days would be role for a
> Messiah of Israel who may be of the line of David
>
> Priests provide leadership
>
> Accepted the Prophets and Writings (Hebrew Bible beyond Deuteronomy) as
> canonical
>
> Probably gave a lesser status to the Prophets and Writings
>
> Accepted the Prophets and Writings (Hebrew Bible beyond Deuteronomy) as
> holy
>
> Accepted only the Torah
>
> Current Jewish calendar
>
> ?
>
> Solar calendar and perhaps others
>
> Sectarian calendar[30]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn22>
>
> Count omer from second day of Passover
>
> Count omer from Sabbath after first day of Passover
>
> Count omer from Sabbath after first day of Passover
>
> Count omer from Sabbath after first day of Passover
>
>
>
> 4.0 Contact Between Jews and Samaritans
>
>
>
> Before we pursue this issue, it would be useful to focus on the tolerance
> inherent in polytheism and the intolerance inherent in monotheism.
>
>
>
> Ancient polytheism always had room for more gods and generally, when people
> came together they recognized the legitimacy of each other?s gods and often
> identified (i.e. merged) gods which had some common traits e.g. Apollo and
> Adonis or Zeus and Baal Shamem.  This enabled the Ancient World?s population
> groups to coexist in reasonable peace and mutual respect.  However, the
> monotheistic religions ? Samaritan, Jewish, Christian or Muslim ? find it
> difficult to be tolerant.  There is to be only one God and each group
> passionately believes that it holds the true revelation of how, when and
> where he must be served.  All the other groups are superseded (as
> Christianity regards Judaism and as Islam regards both Judaism and
> Christianity), or at best, misguided.  In theory these monotheistic
> religions are intolerant of both paganism and of each other.  In practice,
> paganism is less of a threat.
>
>
>
> The Romans tolerated the Jews, both because they generally practiced
> religious toleration, and because the Jews were too numerous to suppress.
> The Romans even made special concessions to Jewish sensitivities such as:
>
>
>
>    - Allowing Jews to take part in public life without indulging in
>    emperor worship of other pagan acts; and,
>    - Allowing Jews to circumcise their children although non-Jews were
>    forbidden to do so.
>
>
>
>  The pagan Romans were generally unable to distinguish Jews from Samaritans
> on the basis of religion.  They both had the same Torah, the same spoken and
> written languages; both called themselves the true Israel etc.  However,
> they were able to distinguish them politically since each group were more
> than willing to help the Romans to suppress the other and even bribed Roman
> officials to persecute the other group.  Each group also periodically
> undertook raids to defile the other?s holy place and to massacre each
> other.
>
>
>
> When the Roman Empire became Christian (4th century CE) the Samaritans,
> together with the Manicheans, were persecuted even more fiercely than the
> Jews.
>
>
>
> It would thus seem that, in principle, there was an implacable opposition
> between Jews and Samaritans in the Second Temple period.  This was probably
> the case as regards the official leadership of each group.  It seems,
> however, that between crises the groups coexisted moderately harmoniously.
> Thus the Babylonian Minor Tractate Kuthim, discusses the splitting of tithes
> between Jewish and Samaritan priests, teaching each other?s children a
> trade, eating Samaritan matzah on Passover, the kashrut of Samaritan meat
> and whether a Samaritan may circumcise a Jew.  By the third century CE[31]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn23>Jews
> essentially considered Samaritans to be totally foreign to them both
> ethnically and religiously.
>
>
>
> In all likelihood, from very early times into the Middle Ages Samaritans
> and Jews probably got along the way Jews, Christians and Muslims have got
> along in the Middle East in recent centuries.
>
>
>
> Perhaps typical to the ongoing situation are the following quotes from
> Pummer, in *The Samaritans in Egypt<http://64.239.22.65/html_articles/Pummer.htm>
> * -
>
>
>
> ?Although in general the relationship between Jews and Samaritans seems to
> have been cordial, there were incidents in which animosity came to the fore.
> One such episode is described by Elijah Capsali (c. 1483-1555) in his work
> *Sefer Eliyahu Zuta (*also called *Seper de-Vei Eliyahu*), which he wrote
> in 1523. He mentions a Samaritan by the name of Sadaqa, a very rich man who
> had great influence with the Muslim authorities. It seems that this Sadaqa
> was the main instigator of an attempted massacre of the Jews at the end of
> the Mamluk rule when, in 1517, the Ottoman sultan Selim I (born 1467 or
> 1470, died 1520) conquered Cairo ?.Uncertain is also what happened to the
> Samaritan synagogue in Cairo. While I. Ben-Zvi claims that the Samaritan
> synagogue in Cairo was taken over by Jews in 1708, others believe that it
> was the Karaites who took it over?
>
>
>
> 5.0 Samaritan Studies
>
>
>
> *5.1 What We Cannot Learn*
>
>
>
> Many scholars are first attracted to Samaritan Studies in the hope that
> they gain access thereby to lost Northern Israelite traditions.
> Regrettably, it seems that no recoverable Samaritan traditions exist that go
> back behind the Torah.  Really, there is no meaningful information before
> the early liturgy and Markah (4th century CE).  It must be remembered that
> through most of their history the Samaritans have lived in settlements
> having Jewish, Christian and Muslim populations.  They could, and did, read
> the literature of these other faith communities.  They would seem to have
> had a fair familiarity with Rabbinic Jewish writings and, even more so, with
> Karaite literature.[32]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn24>
>
>
>
> On the other hand, specific Jewish traditions directly derived from
> Northern Israelite sources abound. E.g.
>
>
>
>    - Elijah and Elisha stories
>    - Joshua traditions
>    - Hosea
>    - Northern stories in the Book of Judges (only 2 minor, and no major,
>    judges were from the tribe of Judah)
>
>
>
> Indeed, it is more logical to look for information on Northern traditions
> in Jewish sources because:
>
>
>
>    - Post-Exilic Judaism apparently encompassed all the surviving
>    Israelites except for Western Manasseh and part of Ephraim; and,
>    - Jewish literature is preserved from both the first and Second Temple[
>    33] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn25> periods as
>    well as Rabbinic literature from 200 CE which contains earlier traditions ;
>    while,
>    - As noted above, Samaritan literature is preserved only from the 4thcentury CE.
>
>
>
>
>
> *5.2 What We Can Learn*
>
>
>
>    - Torah Text[34]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn26> ?
>    this is the only complete non-Masoritic recension to have survived[35]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn27>
>    - Language Traditions[36]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn28>? As with the Mediterranean Jews, the Samaritans have used 4 languages over
>    their History ? Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Arabic.  Samaritan Hebrew and
>    Aramaic traditions are of considerable interest in increasing our knowledge
>    of Biblical Hebrew, but even more of the Palestinian Aramaic of the
>    Talmud Yerushalmi
>    - The Samaritans, and indeed the Kariates<http://www.karaite-korner.org/>,
>    show us what Judaism might have become had the Sadducees, not the
>    Proto-Rabbinic Pharisees become normative Judaism after 70 CE.
>    - Religion ? To quote from Bowman[37]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn29>
>
>
>
> ??the Samaritans are important as living witnesses to ancient traditions
> and practice.  They are our only link with the old Zadokite priesthood of
> Jerusalem.  Their sacrifices, their stress on levitical purity, their
> calendar, all may be survivals of the early post-Exilic  period ??
>
>
>
> I would stress the word ?may? in Bowman?s statement.
>
>
>
>
>
> *5.3 **Problems in Samaritan Studies*
>
>    1. Quality and Quantity of Researchers
>
>  a)*     *Quality and Quantity of Researchers
>
>  From its inception, Samaritan Studies have been crippled by the small
> number of qualified researchers willing to dedicate a major portion of their
> professional careers to Samaritan history, culture, languages, literature
> etc.  In part, this is probably due to a combination of limited interest
> within the academic community, the difficulty of mastering the necessary
> languages (see below) and the fact that there are clearly no literary
> masterpieces in the Samaritan literary corpus. On the other hand, scholars
> of modest capabilities, may find attractive, being a ?big fish in a small
> pond?.
>
> * This field has been blessed by a few first-class scholars (such as
> Ben-Hayyim <http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#Benhayyim>, Cowley,
> Crown <http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#crown_samaritans>, Macuch,
> Montgomery <http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_mont.htm>, Pummer<http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#Pummer>,
> Purvis <http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#Purvis>, Tal<http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_int.htm#Tal>)
> more mediocre scholars and some a good deal worse than that.  Unfortunately,
> some of the poorer scholars have published the most, and in English the most
> accessible of languages.  Poor scholarship, often picked up in secondary
> literature, is a serious problem since, in such a slow developing field a
> book can remain in current use for many decades and thus poor scholarship
> can mislead almost ad infinitum. *
>
> At present, the greatest need is for: (a) an English translation of Ben
> Hayyim's *Tibat Marqe: A Collection of Samaritan Midrashim,  (*Jerusalem:
> Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1988 (Hebrew); and, (b) a
> critical edition and translation of the Defter - the core Samaritan liturgy.
>
>
>
> b)     The Language problem
>
>  To work seriously in Samaritan Studies it is necessary to master the
> following languages: Samaritan Biblical Hebrew, Samaritan Aramaic, Samaritan
> Arabic, Samaritan Modern Literary Hebrew (a derivative of Biblical Hebrew),
> English, German, French and Modern Hebrew often written in a rather
> difficult style and sometimes even Russian.  To this level of linguistic
> competence must be added all the skills and competences necessary to do
> something useful with the material after you have read it.  It is hardly to
> be wondered at that few scholars measure up.
>
> * What can be done to ease this burden?*
>
> * First of all, the need for competencies in Biblical Hebrew, Samaritan
> Aramaic, Samaritan Arabic, and Samaritan Modern Literary Hebrew can be
> reduced, for many types of work, by providing careful English translations
> of critical editions of the major Samaritan texts.*
>
> * Secondly, the field could standardize on publishing in English.  From
> the beginning of Samaritan Studies English has been the major modern
> language of publication.  It is now the ?New Latin? ? a language that any
> scholar in any field, can be expected to be able to read fluently.  This
> will be hard to swallow for Israelis, as well as German and French
> speakers.  However, it is the path taken in most fields of study in the
> world and a clear necessity if Samaritan Studies is to prosper as it should.
> *
>
> * I will give just two clear, and important, examples of mediocre
> scholarship pushing out outstanding scholarship because the former was
> published in English while the outstanding scholarship was published in a
> difficult Modern Hebrew*
>
> * -          Macdonald?s edition of Memar Marqah with English translation
> (John Macdonald, ed. and trans., Memar Marqah: the Teaching of Marqah.  2
> vols.  Beihefte zur Zeitschrift f?r die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, 84.
> Berlin, 1963) in preference to Ben-Hayyim?s (Z. Ben-Hayyim, Tibat Marqe(Jerusalem: The Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1988)
> *
>
>  -          Gaster?s edition of Al-Asatir (The Samaritan Book of the
> Secrets of Moses, 1927) in preference to Ben-Hayyim?s ("Sefer Asatir,"
> Aramaic text and modern Hebrew translation by J. Ben-Hayyim.  *Tarbitz* 14
> (1943): 104-114, 123-125; *Tarbitz* 15 (1944): 79-86) see Encyclopaedia
> Judaica vol. 2 cols. 510-511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Annex 1
>
>
>
> Some Thoughts of the Differing Fates of Samaritans and Jews
>
>
>
> The Samaritan mindset, like that of the Sadducees seems to have been
> conservative.  They rejected the Hebrew Bible beyond Deuteronomy and have
> preserved no literature of their own prior to the 4th century CE.
> Centuries later than main stream Judaism, they accepted the synagogue, the
> substitution of prayer for the sacrificial service other than Passover and
> belief in the resurrection of the dead.  Main stream Samaritanism aborted
> the development of a rabbinate despite early developments in that direction
> [38] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn30>.  Thus
> priestly leadership, founded on a monopoly of the interpretation of Torah,
> has continued to the present day.  The Samaritans have been so tied to their
> holy mountain that they could not escape plagues, wars, frequent Christian
> and Muslim persecutions and other calamities when they visited the area<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn30>
> [39] <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#rabbis>.  Their
> Diaspora communities were bled continuously to help build up the declining
> population at Shechem-Nablus.  One wonders whether such a priest-temple
> centred worship could hold the allegiance of those far away who could always
> convert or informally join the Jewish, Christian or Muslim communities.
>
>
>
> By contrast, Rabbinic Judaism has periodically, in the past, been willing
> to ?reinvent? itself.  Its ?canonization? process has, if unacknowledged,
> effectively continued to the present (e.g. Acceptance as normative of the
> Hebrew Bible beyond Deuteronomy, the Mishnah, Gemara, Rashi, Maimonides,
> Shulkhan Arukh, Zohar etc. etc.)
>
>
>
> Rabbinic Judaism has developed in the Oral Law a method of changing to meet
> new circumstances while maintaining Deuteronomy?s theo-centricity.
>
>
>
> Through the development of the Oral Law, yeshivot, prayer and the
> synagogue, Judaism became fully portable.  Perhaps, the Temple sacrifices
> were not renewed after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem because Judaism
> had already found it to be an anachronism from the removal of which the Jews
> benefited.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Annex 2
>
> Samaritans in the New Testament
>
>
>
> The following are the New Testaments texts mentioning the Samaritans with a
> few comments of my own. I will take the texts as they stand fully realizing
> that they may not, in fact, closely to what Jesus may have said[40]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_edn31>
> .
>
>
>
> 1. John, chapter 4:3-22
>
>
>
> 3: he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
>
> 4: He had to pass through Samaria.
>
> 5: So he came to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near the field that
> Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
>
> 6: Jacob's well was there, and so Jesus, wearied as he was with his
> journey, sat down beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.
>
> 7: There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me
> a drink."
>
> 8: For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
>
> 9: The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink
> of me, a woman of Samaria?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
>
> 10: Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is
> saying to you, `Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would
> have given you living water."
>
> 11: The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the
> well is deep; where do you get that living water?
>
> 12: Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank
> from it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?"
>
> 13: Jesus said to her, "Every one who drinks of this water will thirst
> again,
>
> 14: but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never
> thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water
> welling up to eternal life."
>
> 15: The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water that I may not thirst,
> nor come here to draw."
>
> 16: Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here."
>
> 17: The woman answered him, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You
> are right in saying, `I have no husband';
>
> 18: for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your
> husband; this you said truly."
>
> 19: The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
>
> 20: Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem
> is the place where men ought to worship."
>
> 21: Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither
> on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
>
> 22: You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for
> salvation is from the Jews.
>
>
>
> This story exhibits the Jewish view of the Samaritans: i.e.
>
>
>
>    - Their vessels are ritually impure (a very Pharisaic concern!)
>    - They are unchaste ? she has had 5 husbands and a lover
>    - Cultic-religious differences i.e. they worship on the wrong mountain
>    and they worship in ignorance (vs. 22)
>
>
>
> The story also illustrates the Samaritan claim to be the *true Israel*(?our father Jacob? in vs. 12).  It should be noted that Jesus rejects this
> claim in vs. 22.
>
>
>
> From a Christian point of view, the story?s point is that, if even the
> corrupt Samaritans recognize Jesus as a prophet how much more should the
> Jews!
>
>
>
> 2. Luke, chapter 17:11-18
>
>
>
> 11: On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Samaria and
> Galilee.
>
> 12: And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a
> distance
>
> 13: and lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us."
>
>
> 14: When he saw them he said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the
> priests." And as they went they were cleansed.
>
> 15: Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising
> God with a loud voice;
>
> 16: and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a
> Samaritan.
>
> 17: Then said Jesus, "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine?
>
> 18: Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this
> foreigner?"
>
>
>
> Here the Samaritan is classed as a foreigner.  From a Christian polemical
> point of view, once again, this illustrates the point that if even the
> Samaritan is grateful how much more should be the Jews the true Israel.  The
> point of the Good Samaritan story (Luke 10:20-37) is analogous, although the
> story contains other elements.
>
>
>
> 3. Matthew, chapter 10:1 and vss. 5-7
>
>
>
>  1: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over
> unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every
> infirmity?.
>
> 5: These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the
> Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,
>
> 6: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
>
> 7: And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
>
>
>
> Jesus is once again classing the Samaritans with the gentiles.
>
>
>
> 4. John, chapter 8:48-49
>
>
>
> 48: The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a
> Samaritan and have a demon?"
>
> 49: Jesus answered, "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and you
> dishonor me.
>
>
>
> Perhaps, here the appellation of ?Samaritan? was taken by Jesus as being
> the equivalent of insane or, perhaps, Jesus considered the accusation to be
> such a low blow that he wouldn?t stoop to answer it.
>
>
>
>
>
>    Maps
>
>
>
>
>
> Map 12 tribes <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Purvis>
>
> *http://www.spbts.org/youth/jrhi/12tribes.html*<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Purvis>
>
> *
> http://www.aceit.org/aceitnow/departments/histoethics/history/mod02/Images/Boundaries_Tribes.htm
> * <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Purvis>
>
> *http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/tribemap.html*<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Purvis>
>
>
>
> Divided kingdoms *http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-divided-kingdom.htm*<http://www.aceit.org/aceitnow/departments/histoethics/history/mod02/Images/Boundaries_Tribes.htm>
>
>
>
> Israel at time of Jesus<http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/tribemap.html>
>
> *http://www.mideastweb.org/isrlate.htm*<http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-divided-kingdom.htm>
>
> *http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-palestine-33AD.htm*<http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-divided-kingdom.htm>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Select Bibliography and Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *[1**]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Kinsman> In Biblical
> Archaeology Review vol. 25 no. 4 Jult/August 1999.
>
> *[**2]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#sacrifice> See
> Bamberger?s comments on Leviticus 17 in *The Torah: A Modern Commentary*,
> W G Plaut Union of American Hebrew Congregations 1981 pp 872-74
>
> *[**3]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#aajrud> From (from
> Ha'aretz Magazine, Friday, October 29, 1999)
>
> YHWH and his Consort
>
> How many gods, exactly, did Israel have? Together with the historical and
> political aspects, there are also doubts as to the credibility of the
> information about belief and worship. The question about the date at which
> monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the
> discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods:
> YHWH and his Asherath. At two sites, Kuntilet Ajrud in the southwestern part
> of the Negev hill region, and Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew
> inscriptions have been found that mention 'YHWH and his Asherah', 'YHWH
> Shomron and his Asherah', 'YHWH Teman and his Asherah'. The authors were
> familiar with a pair of gods, YHWH and his consort Asherah, and send
> blessings in the couple's name. These inscriptions, from the 8th century
> BCE, raise the possibility that monotheism, as a state religion, is actually
> an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the
> destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. Ze'ev Herzog
>
> *[**4]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ele>See
> Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 6 col. 608.
>
> *[**5]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#asher> see p. 52
> in Cornfeld, Gaaiyah. *Archaeology of the Bible: Book by Book*, Adam &
> Charles Black, 1977; Understanding Asherah - Exploring Semitic Iconography
> by Ruth Hestrin in Biblical Archaeology Review vol. XVII no. 5
> September-October 1991.
>
> *[*5a*]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#Hezekiah> * See
> Hayes, J H and Miller, J M, Israelite and Judaean History, Westminster
> 1977 pp. 442-444; *
>
> Albertz, Rainer, *A history of Israelite religion in the Old Testament
> period* [translated by John Bowden], Louisville, Ky. : Westminster/John
> Knox Press, 1994 p. 195 ff.
>
> *[**6]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#inhabitants> See
> The Babylonian Gap by E. Stern in the November/December 2000 issue of the
> Biblical Archaeology Review and the following two articles in the May/June
> 2002 issue: *There Was No Gap* by J.    Blenkinsopp; *Yes There Was* by E.
> Stern.
>
> *[**7]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#torah> Torah
> refers to Genesis-Deuteronomy also called the Five Books of Moses and, in
> Hebrew Humash/Chumash.  For the history of the development of the Torah
> and the Deuteronomic Reform see
>
> Friedman, Richard Elliott, *Who Wrote the Bible*, Harper & Row, 1987
>
> *[**8]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref2> This is
> clear from the fact that no one is ever recorded, in the historical books of
> the Hebrew Bible, as looking in a book for divine guidance before the
> Deuteronomic Reform (c. 620-609 BCE).
>
> *[**9]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#5a>* *See
> Encyclopaedia Judaica vol. 3 col. 908 under heading Authority in deciding
> the halakhah for this in a Jewish context.
>
> *[**10]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref3>Compare this to Greece and Rome where the priests conducted sacrificial
> auguries to determine practical military and political questions.
>
> *[**11]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref4> The
> Samaritans refer to themselves as Shamerim i.e. Keepers (of the Truth of the
> Torah) see *The Samaritans*, Alan D. Crown p 210-211
>
> *[**12]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref5>Samaria corresponds to the former territory, west of the Jordan, of the
> tribe of Manasseh minus the costal plain but plus a narrow band of the
> former territory of Ephraim immediately to the south.
>
> *[**13]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref6>Sadducees ? A conservative aristocratic group which believed in holding
> strictly to the Written Torah.  They rejected the sort of legal and
> theological innovation practices by the Pharisees.  They disappeared after
> the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.
>
> *[*1*4]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref7> Unless
> otherwise stated, quotes from Josephus are from Whiston?s translation found
> at http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/index.htm
>
> *[**15]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref8> See *Josephus
> Flavius and the Jews* by R Egger in *Proceedings of the First
> International Congress of the Soci?t? d??tudes samaritaines*, ed. A Tal
> and M Florentin,Tel Aviv University 1991
>
> *[**16]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref9> See p.
> 25 of *Galilee >From Alexander the Great to Hadrian: 323 B.C.E. to 135
> C.E.* by S Freyne, University of Notre Dame Press 1980; *Jews, Idumaens
> and Ancient Arabs* by Aryeh Kasher, J C B Mohr, 1988 p. 80 and the article
> Exile Assyrian Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 6: cols. 1034-1036); p 26 ff *Galilee
> : history, politics, people* by  Richard A. Horsley, Valley Forge, Penn. :
> Trinity Press Int'l, 1995.;
>
> Oded, B., *Mass Deportations and Deportees in the Neo-Assyrian Empire*,
> Dr. Ludwig Reichert Verlag, 1979; but a picture of almost complete
> depopulation is reported in Stern, E., *Archaeology of the Land of the
> Bible Volume II: The Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian Periods 732-332 BCE*,
> Doubleday  2001; In *Israel in Exile: Deserted Galilee Testifies to
> Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom* (BAR May/June 1998) Zvi Gal
> wrote "Thus, from the archaeological point of view, it is evident that the
> Assyrian campaigns led by Tiglath-Pileser III marked the end of the Iron Age
> in Lower Galilee.  The region remained relatively deserted during the
> seventh century BCE."  He states that a similar situation pertained to Upper
> Galilee.  The Persian period resettlement of Lower Galilee seems to have
> been by Phoenicians from the coast.
>
> *[1**7]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#what%20reall> *The
> Samaritans and early Judaism : a literary analysis* / Ingrid Hjelm.
> Sheffield Academic Press, c2000. reviews all serious proposals for Samaritan
> origins; Cross, Frank Moore, *From epic to canon : history and literature
> in ancient Israel*, Baltimore : Johns Hopkins University press, c1998, pp.
> 173-202.
>
> *[1**8]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref11> Examples
> could include the rise of notional churches within the Byzantine Empire and
> the notional function of Roman Catholicism in Poland and Ireland in the 19
> th century.
>
> *[1**9]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#allot> Thus the
> Ammonites and Moabites were descendants (through incest!) of Lot, Abraham?s
> nephew; the North Arabians were descendants of Abraham through Hagar while
> the South Arabians and Midianites were descendants of Abraham through
> Keturah; the Edomites were descendants of Isaac through Esau as were the
> Amalekites.  We can thus envisage the genealogy arising in a situation in
> which the authors saw Israel?s relationship to surrounding nations, in
> descending order of closeness as: (a) Edomites and Amalekites - family but
> murderous; (b) North and South Arabians and Midianites; (c) Moabites,
> Ammonites (and Arameans).
>
> *[**20]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#allot>* for all
> geographic references see*
>
> Aharoni, Y and Avi-Yonah, M, The Macmillan Bible Atlas, third edition
> revised by A F Rainey and Z Safrai, MacMillan 1993
>
> *[**21]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref13>*Samaritans
> and Jews.  The Origin of Samaritanism Reconsidered* by R. J. Coggins,
> Oxford Hendrickson Publishers, 2002. p. 24
>
> *[* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex>*22]*<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex> The
> Keepers : an introduction to the history and culture of the Samaritans /
> Robert T. Anderson, Terry Giles. Publisher Peabody, Mass.
>
> *[ <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex>**2<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex>
> 3 <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex>]<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#ex>
> * See *The Ammei-Ha-Aretz and the Samaritans* on p. 229 ff in Oppenheimer,
> A`haron, *The `am ha-aretz : a study in the social history of the Jewish
> people in the Hellenistic-Roman period*, Leiden : E. J. Brill, 1977.
>
> *[**24]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref16> from
> here to ?descendants of Joseph? is quoted from *Jewish antiquities /
> Josephus ; with an English translation by H. ST. J. Thackeray; Cross
> considers this story to be probably factual - *Cross, Frank Moore, *From
> epic to canon : history and literature in ancient Israel*, Baltimore :
> Johns Hopkins University press, c1998, pp.* 195-196 *
>
> *[**25]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref17> *History
> of the Samaritans*. By Nathan Schur, Frankfurt am Main : Verlag Peter
> Lang, 1989.
>
> *[**26]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref18> Many
> and great are the services which I have rendered you in the course of the
> war, with the help of God, when I was in Coele-Syria and Phoenicia, and when
> I came with the Jews to Leontopolis in the nome of Heliopolis and to other
> places where our nation is settled; and I found that most of them have
> temples, contrary to what is proper, and that for this reason they are
> ill-disposed toward one another, as is also the case with the Egyptians
> because of the multitude of their temples and their varying opinions about
> the forms of worship; and I have found a most suitable place in the fortress
> called after Bubastis-of-the-Fields, which abounds in various kinds of trees
> and is full of sacred animals, wherefore I beg you to permit me to cleanse
> this temple, which belongs to no one and is in ruins, and to build a shrine
> to the Most High God in the likeness of that at Jerusalem and with the
> same dimensions, on behalf of you and your wife and children, in order that
> the Jewish inhabitants of Egypt may be able to come together there in mutual
> harmony and serve your interests. For this indeed is what the prophet Isaiah
> foretold, "There shall be an altar in Egypt to the Lord God," and many other
> such things did he prophesy concerning this place (Josephus, *Ant*.
> 13.65?68).
>
> WHEN Masada was thus taken, the general left a garrison in the fortress to
> keep it, and he himself went away to Cesarea; for there were now no enemies
> left in the country? Caesar ? gave orders to Lupus to demolish that Jewish
> temple which was in the region called Onion, (19) and was in Egypt, which
> was built and had its denomination from the occasion following: Onias, the
> son of Simon, one of the Jewish high priests fled from Antiochus the king of
> Syria, when he made war with the Jews, and came to Alexandria? Onias built a
> fortress and a temple, not like to that at Jerusalem, but such as resembled
> a tower. He built it of large stones to the height of sixty cubits; he made
> the structure of the altar in imitation of that in our own country, and in
> like manner adorned with gifts? The king also gave him a large country for a
> revenue in money, that both the priests might have a plentiful provision
> made for them, and that God might have great abundance of what things were
> necessary for his worship. ? There had been also a certain ancient
> prediction made by [a prophet] whose name was Isaiah, about six hundred
> years before, that this temple should be built by a man that was a Jew in
> Egypt. And this is the history of the building of that temple.
>
> And now Lupus, the governor of Alexandria, upon the receipt of Caesar's
> letter, came to the temple, and carried out of it some of the donations
> dedicated thereto, and shut up the temple itself. ? when he had shut up the
> gates, he made it entirely inaccessible, insomuch that there remained no
> longer the least footsteps of any Divine worship that had been in that
> place. Now the duration of the time from the building of this temple till it
> was shut up again was three hundred and forty-three years. (Jewish Wars,
> Book 7, Chapter 10 http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/war-7.htm)
>
> *[**27]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref19>  Pharisees
> ? a Jewish sect arising in the Maccabean period that believed: that the
> Torah should be reinterpreted by Oral Tradition; in physical resurrection of
> the dead; and, in the immortality of the soul.  In the late Second Temple
> period, say 50 BCE-70 CE, they were a minority group but had a major
> following among the people.  After the destruction of the Temple (70 CE)
> they developed into normative Rabbinic Judaism.
>
> *[2**8]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref20> See Jewish
> *contemporaries of Jesus : Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes* / G?nter
> Stemberger ; translated by Allan W. Mahnke. Fortress Press, 1995.
>
> *[2**9]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref21>  See
> Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 6 col. 878
>
> *[**30]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref22>  See
> Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 14 cols. 748-749
>
> *[**31]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref23>  See Alan
> D. Crown, "*Redating the Schism between the Judaeans and the Samaritans*."
> *Jewish Quarterly Review *82 (1991): 17-50
>
> *[**32]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref24> see *A
> Companion to Samaritan Studies*, ed. by Alan D. Crown, Reinhard Pummer,
> and Abraham Tal. T?bingen : J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck), pp. 102, 142, 149
>
> *[**33]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref25> I
> would include, as Jewish literature Josephus, Apocrypha-Pseudepigrapha and
> Dead Sea Scrolls.
>
> *[**34]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref26> See A
> *New Understanding of the Samaritan Pentateuch in the Wake of the
> Discovery of the Qumran Scrolls* by E Tal in *Proceedings of the First
> International Congress of the Soci?t? d??tudes samaritaines*, ed. A Tal
> and M Florentin,Tel Aviv University 1991
>
> *[**35]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref27> *Qumran
> and the History of the Biblical Text*. Edited by F. Cross and S. Talmon.
> Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1975.
>
> *[**36]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref28> See *Samaritan
> Hebrew ? An Evaluation* by Z Ben Hayyim and *Samaritan Languages:
> Samaritan Hebrew, Samaritan Aramaic* by R Macuch both in *The Samaritans*,
> Alan D. Crown and The Language of Tibat Marqe and its Time by Z Ben Hayyim
> in *Proceedings of the First International Congress of the Soci?t? d??tudes
> samaritaines*, ed. A Tal and M Florentin,Tel Aviv University 1991
>
> *[**37]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref29> John
> Bowman, *The Importance of Samaritan Researches*."Annual of the Leeds
> University Oriental Society 1 (1958-59): 43-54
>
> *[3**8]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#area> For
> Samaritan sects see *Sects and Movements* by J Fossum both in *The
> Samaritans*, Alan D. Crown.  The Dosethian sect showed a number of
> parallels to the Pharisees.  However, in Judaism the Pharisees eliminated
> the conservative Sadducees; in Samaritanism the conservative priestly
> establishment swallowed up the Dosethians.  In the 8th century CE the
> Karaites <http://www.karaite-korner.org/> split off from Rabbinic Judaism
> largely rejecting rabbinic tradition and mainly taking a literal approach to
> interpreting the Hebrew Bible.  This led to many parallels with the
> Samaritans and a considerable use by the Samaritans of karaite literature
> and even acceptance of some Karaite halakhic views
>
> *[3**9]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#area>* The
> Jewish rabbis noted this advantage of the Jewish diaspora - "R. Oshaiah
> answered that it is not the mercy of the rulers which assured survival in
> exile, but the political situation. Their wide dispersion saves the Jewish
> people from total destruction ...." Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 7 col. 280.*
>
> *[**40]* <http://www.adath-shalom.ca/samaritan_origin.htm#_ednref31> see
> New Testament and the Samaritans on pp. 167-171 of *A Companion to
> Samaritan Studies*, ed. by Alan D. Crown, Reinhard Pummer, and Abraham
> Tal. T?bingen : J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck), 1993. 244 p<http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-palestine-33AD.htm>
>
>
> Shalom L'Kulam,
>
>      Over the course of studying different aspects of the Northern Kingdom
> of Israel, and their destruction and captivity by Assyria, I've come across
> some potentially interesting info.  According to some sources, some people
> (of the "peasant class") remained on the land, and were NOT taken into
> captivity.  If true, this has some VERY interesting implications...
>
>     I was curious if anyone else had some more information and or, other
> sources about this.  Please don't forward the mention in the Tanach or
> Talmud - I've seen them before; or the mentions of the Samaritans in the NT,
> either - I've seen them, too.  Thanks for your help!
>                             *   Hanoch*
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 19:53:12 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:53:12 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d
willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of
Israel....56 more days....

           *   Hanoch*


On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
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From rossknichols at me.com  Sun Jul 12 20:02:39 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:02:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>

Actually I had your birthday in my planner and remembered.  I look  
forward to visiting you there for cake and ice cream.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 12, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G- 
> d willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land  
> of Israel....56 more days....
>
>               Hanoch
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>  
> wrote:
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 20:09:01 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:09:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The song lyrics of the day...
Message-ID: <855590370907121809t65d7fa4akd4a3b31ad51e78cd@mail.gmail.com>

I got a card from my daughters, which, when opened, played the music from
'Simple Man' by Lynyrd Skynyrd. I hadn't heard (or thought of) that song in
years.  After listening to it 10 times on YouTube, I checked out the
lyrics.  Take a look, I've included them below...
                 * Hanoch*
**
*Simple Man* lyrics

Songwriters: Van Zant, Ron; Rossington, Gary;

My mama told me when I was young
Said sit beside me my only son
And listen closely to what I say
And if you do this it'll help you some sunny day
Oh, yeah it will

Oh, take your time, don't live too fast
Troubles will come and they will pass
You'll find a woman and you'll find love
And don't forget that there is a someone up above
And be a simple kind of man
And be something you'll love and understand
Baby be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me son if you can?
Then you can

Don't get your lust from the rich man's gold
All that you need now is in your soul
And you can do this, oh baby if you try
All that I want from you my son is to be satisfied
And be a simple kind of man
And be something you'll love and understand
Baby be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me son if you can?
If you can

Oh, don't you worry, you'll find yourself
Follow your heart and nothing else
And you can do this, oh baby if you try
All that I want from you my son is to be satisfied
And be a simple kind of man
Be something you'll love and understand
Baby be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me son if you can?
So baby be a simple, be a simple man
Oh, won't you do this for me son if you can?
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 20:20:19 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:20:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907121820y7b3807e0h909905cdf7af8112@mail.gmail.com>

And I look forward to sharing it with you, Achi.....

                *   Hanoch
*
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

>  Actually I had your birthday in my planner and remembered.  I look
> forward to visiting you there for cake and ice cream.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 12, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d
> willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of
> Israel....56 more days....
>
>            *   Hanoch*
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:
>
>> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 20:43:36 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:43:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue]Belated Yom Huledet Sameach Hanoch!!!!
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6CAA9B455437464290282EA1D3AA03B7@BatYah>

May you have many many many more!!

Shalom

BatYah Spiker
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hanoch Young 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday


  Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of Israel....56 more days....

                Hanoch

   
  On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

    Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

    Sent from my iPhone
    _______________________________________________





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 20:45:21 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:45:21 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue]Belated Yom Huledet Sameach Hanoch!!!!
In-Reply-To: <6CAA9B455437464290282EA1D3AA03B7@BatYah>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
	<6CAA9B455437464290282EA1D3AA03B7@BatYah>
Message-ID: <855590370907121845i65b2fbd9i55283531b75c650e@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks BatYah, much appreciated  :-)  Toda!

              *  Hanoch
*
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Batyah <yhwhisel at gmail.com> wrote:

>  May you have many many many more!!
>
> Shalom
>
> BatYah Spiker
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
>
> Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d
> willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of
> Israel....56 more days....
>
>            *   Hanoch*
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:
>
>> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul 12 21:06:11 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:06:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>
Message-ID: <D0DA39659D1440339F40E9FBF86D2F48@bettylaptop>

Happy Birthday, Hanoch!  You have a great birthday, the same as Kim?s little
Joshua, that precious little spark, who only lived 3 ? years! He would have
been 19 years old today, July 12.  When is your Hebrew birthday?  Joshua?s
was yesterday, 19 Tammuz.

 

May you have many, many more birthdays, my brother
all in Eretz Yisrael!

 

My love and may HaShem always grace you with His blessings!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday

 

Actually I had your birthday in my planner and remembered.  I look forward
to visiting you there for cake and ice cream.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 12, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d
willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of
Israel....56 more days....

 

              Hanoch


 

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols < <mailto:rossknichols at me.com>
rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 21:10:06 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:10:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <D0DA39659D1440339F40E9FBF86D2F48@bettylaptop>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<855590370907121753u35bf4554he104c277d26f6619@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABF4D8E-4C5D-4754-B307-9645B9372579@me.com>
	<D0DA39659D1440339F40E9FBF86D2F48@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <855590370907121910k75f52040g48ff8dbafe08a4aa@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Betty -

    Thank you so much, it's really very sweet.  My actual (Hebrew) birthday
is the 4th of Menachem Av...the week of T'sha B'Av.  Take care!
              Toda,
                        *Hanoch *

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:

>  Happy Birthday, Hanoch!  You have a great birthday, the same as Kim?s
> little Joshua, that precious little spark, who only lived 3 ? years! He
> would have been 19 years old today, July 12.  When is your Hebrew birthday?
>  Joshua?s was yesterday, 19 Tammuz.
>
>
>
> May you have many, many more birthdays, my brother?all in Eretz Yisrael!
>
>
>
> My love and may HaShem always grace you with His blessings!
>
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Ross Nichols
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:03 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
>
>
>
> Actually I had your birthday in my planner and remembered.  I look forward
> to visiting you there for cake and ice cream.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jul 12, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Thanks pal....I guess you were glancing at Facebook, huh?  LOL....G-d
> willing it will be the last birthday I ever have outside the Land of
> Israel....56 more days....
>
>
>
>            *   Hanoch*
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Ross Nichols < <rossknichols at me.com>
> rossknichols at me.com> wrote:
>
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From cormary at mts.net  Sun Jul 12 21:51:36 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:51:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
Message-ID: <4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>

Hey Hanoch a bit belated happy birthday. Just came home from being gone 
a good part of the day

Cornie


Ross Nichols wrote:
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00
>
>   

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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 23:44:56 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:44:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907122144q457c7214ie614c7f829bf1b04@mail.gmail.com>

Hanoch,
Happy Birthday!

Kim

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

>  Hey Hanoch a bit belated happy birthday. Just came home from being gone a
> good part of the day
>
> Cornie
>
>
> Ross Nichols wrote:
>
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon Jul 13 00:43:07 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:43:07 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday]
Message-ID: <4A5AC96B.9020706@westnet.com.au>

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From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:34:39 -0500
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 13 05:29:28 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:29:28 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
Message-ID: <SNT108-W6200E16D7D5B692C034398C8220@phx.gbl>


Happy birthday sweet Hanoch - may HaShem greatly bless your journey to His land - to home :)
Oh Betty - I didn't realise Kim and the family had such a tragic loss. I am so sorry - my heart and thoughts and prayers go out to you, Kim and the beautiful Joshua who lit up the world while he lived, and even more so in memory.  May HaShem comfort you and bless you with his love and mercy on this day. Happy birthday Joshua.
_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 07:06:38 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:06:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Judenrat of Sderot"
Message-ID: <855590370907130506y284edddw743d9203219c100a@mail.gmail.com>

It pains me greatly to share the type of information written below, since it
can easily be misunderstood and misrepresented, however, I think it's
important to see.  Unfortunately, I agree with the author's assessment, and
his facts are all correct.  I'm sharing it with you so you can better
understand how things operate in Israel, and the elements of "Jewish life"
and Jewish history that you don't typically read about.

The term "Judenrat" is the German for 'Jewish Council," and these were the
local "leaders" who 'organized' the Jewish communities and dealt with the
Nazis.  It is NOT a flattering expression.....If anyone would like an
elaboration on any of the points, please ask, and I'd be happy to oblige.
Well, enough of a disclaimer....
                                   *  Hanoch *
**
*Samson Blinded* has posted a new item,* 'The Judenrat of Sderot'
*
The government?s restraint regarding the attacks on Sderot is a continuation
of Zionist Judenrat attitude. During the Arab pogroms of the 1930s, Zionist
leadership adopted a policy of restraint, and a passive defense of
settlements.
Such tactics allowed the Arabs to regroup and store weapons in the
unchallenged
safety of their villages, and left Jewish passersby easy targets for Arab
saboteurs. When Etzel proclaimed an end to restraint and started actively
targeting random Arabs, leading Zionists condemned its highly effective
tactics
as un-Jewish. It would be Jewish to die nicely.

Ben Gurion similarly resigned himself to the death of the six million (seven
million, actually, as many of the Soviet victims were not registered
Jewish). He
refused to channel the money collected for Jewish settlement activities to
ransoming Hungarian and Romanian Jews. Zionists not only didn't pound on all
the
doors to push to save European Jews, but ostracized Hillel Kook, whose group
did
just that.
Zionist restraint has been dictated not by concern for Arabs, but hatred of
Jews. During the War of Independence and for a decade afterwards, Ben Gurion
repressed Arabs with an iron fist, expelled them, and condoned wholesale
murder
in Kfar Kasem.

In 1976, incited by Jordan, Palestinians launched a Land Day. Israel?s
military administration, duly warned of the upcoming pogrom, refused to send
reinforcements into Hebron and the settlements, thus leaving Jews there to
be
murdered by rioting Arab mobs. The Jews defended themselves valiantly, but
the
army detachments only arrived after the fighting had subsided.

In 1994, again, the army knew that the Arabs were preparing a pogrom on
Purim.
During a meeting in military headquarters, Dr. Baruch Goldstein was told to
arrange medical aid to Jews, but no reinforcements were brought into the
city.

Prisoner exchanges show a similar disregard for Jewish lives. To gain media
applause, Israeli political bosses free hundreds of Jew-murderers.

Assimilated Israeli leaders despise common Jews, who remind them of their
own
roots. Poor (Sderot) and religious Jews are detested still more. When there
is
an occasion to have them killed by Arab hands, Israeli leaders don?t object.

You may comment at
http://samsonblinded.com/blog/judenrat-sderot.htm
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From sherrydowell777 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 07:18:13 2009
From: sherrydowell777 at yahoo.com (sherry dowell)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:18:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
Message-ID: <543846.19221.qm@web54006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

MONTE JUDAH HAS A TEACHING ON JOTS AND TITLES.? LION AND LAMB MINISTRIES.

Blessings, Love, and Shalom, 

Sherry

--- On Sat, 7/11/09, Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net> wrote:


From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Saturday, July 11, 2009, 6:14 PM


http://rootsoffaith.org/?s=jots+and+tittles&search=
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Runyon" <goodears at jps.net>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:01 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction


>
> Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and
> Tittles"?? ? I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the 
> Enlarged
> letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the
> TaNaCH.
>
> Shalom,
> Ron Runyon
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 

_______________________________________________



      
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 07:43:32 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:43:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] They mean it, what is it that we don't understand?!?!
Message-ID: <855590370907130543p7a319c60lee6847480d485a01@mail.gmail.com>

Read the article below....WHY DON'T WE *BELIEVE THEM*?!?!?  They're telling
us what they really, truly feel, and mean.  We're living a fantasy...with
this "peace" plan of President Barack Hussein...
                     * Hanoch*
**
*Fatah Official: ?Our Goal is Not Peace, but Rather Palestine?
*Tammuz 21, 5769, 13 July 09 02:05by by Hillel Fendel

(Israelnationalnews.com) *"Our goal has never been peace,? says a Fatah
official in a PA TV panel. ?Peace is a means; the goal is Palestine" ?
meaning the conquest of Israel.
*Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), directed by Itamar Marcus, reports on a
panel discussion on a television program of the Fatah organization broadcast
this past week. Headed by Mahmoud Abbas, Fatah is considered the more
moderate wing of the Palestinian Authority, compared with Hamas.
*The panel discussion shows that in actuality, Fatah is no less firm than
Hamas in seeking the goal of Israel?s* *destruction.* Kifah Radaydeh, the
deputy head of the Jerusalem chapter of Fatah,* says openly that the PA will
resume violence and terror against Israel when Fatah is "capable," and
"according to what seems right."
*"It has been said that we are negotiating for peace,? she further stated,
?but our goal has never been peace. Peace is a means; the goal is
Palestine."
Radaydeh is considered a ?promising and rising young force? in Fatah,
according to a PMW source, ?and this report will likely give her extra
prominence. But we have to publicize her words in order that the truth about
the PA and Fatah be known.?
PMW was established in 1996 to ?gain an understanding of Palestinian society
through the monitoring of the Palestinian Arabic language media and
schoolbooks,? its website states. The organization ?analyzes Palestinian
Authority culture and society from numerous perspectives, including studies
on summer camps, poetry, schoolbooks, religious ideology, crossword puzzles,
and more. [It plays] the critical role of documenting the contradictions
between the image the Palestinians present to the world in English and the
messages to their own people in Arabic.?
Click here to see the broadcast.
Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik, writing this latest PMW report, emphasize
that when Fatah refers to "Palestine," as when Radaydeh says the* ?goal is
Palestine,? the reference is to all of Israel. As proof, it is noted that
the Fatah flag still shows the map of Israel under rifles.
*In addition, Fatah MP Najat Abu Bakr said in a PA TV interview last year
that Fatah's goal remains the destruction of Israel, but that their
political plan is to focus on returning to the 1967 borders. *"It doesn't
mean that we don't want the 1948 borders,? Abu Bakr said, referring to all
of Israel,? but rather that ?our current political program is to say that we
want the 1967 borders."
Just four months ago, senior PA official Mohammed Dahlan stressed that Fatah
adamantly refuses to recognize Israel, and that even the Palestinian
Authority?s recognition is only for the sake of receiving foreign aid:
*             "?the Fatah movement does not recognize Israel, even today...
[such recognition is] required of the government but not of the Fatah, so
that this government will be able to offer the necessary assistance, to
carry out the necessary reconstruction, to offer assistance to the sick, to
bring relief to needy families... This can be dealt with [only] by a
government that has relations with the international community, one that is
acceptable to the international community, in order that we can work
together and benefit from the international community."
www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>? Copyright
IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 08:38:47 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:38:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "..The RIGHT road to peace"
Message-ID: <855590370907130638s501a7543sbc728f5235c66957@mail.gmail.com>

VERY worthwhile reading, right to the last sentence.  It's written by Rav
Benny Elon, former member of the Kenesset, and please check out his website
for The Israeli Initiative - the right road to peace - www.hayozma.org
                  *  Hanoch*
**
 Tammuz 21, 5769, 7/13/2009
An Alternative Plan to the Two-State Solutionby Baruch Gordon

 Here is an important update from the* **Israeli
Initiative*<http://www.hayozma.org/rewr-true/language-en_US/Default.aspx>headed
by former Knesset Member Rabbi Benny Elon:

*100 Days of the Netanyahu Government*
This week marks the end to the first hundred days of the Netanyahu
Government, the first one in many years which has not based itself on the
Oslo process. The climax of these days was marked by Netanyahu?s Bar Ilan
speech which we wrote about at length in the last newsletter. His speech did
not signify a turn in Israeli policy, and even seemingly adopted the
two-state idea, yet it left room for a more national zionistic agenda.
Netanyahu emphasized Israel?s historic right to Judea and Samaria, clarified
that any resettlement of refugees will be outside of Israel?s borders, and
of utmost importance ? demanded that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a
Jewish State.

The speech was received positively around in the world, except in the Arab
world. This is no coincidence. The Israel Initiative has continually stated
that Palestinian nationality is sustained through perpetuating the conflict
while continuing to de-legitimize Israel. Generous concessions made by Ehud
Barak in May 2000 were rejected by Arafat, who was unwilling to agree that
the following resolution would signify an end to the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict. Abu Mazen and co. will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state
because it contrasts the narrative of Palestinian nationality, which has
been instilled for years among Palestinians in refugee camps and around the
world.

This week, in a meeting with officials close to the Prime Minister, we were
happy to discover that behind Netanyahu?s speech is an outlook that is
similar to that of The Israel Initiative, or at least critical parts of it.
We spoke about the importance of relating to the refugee issue on a
humanitarian level as opposed to a political one. We have basis to believe
that in the future we will see Israel actively seeking to rehabilitate
refugees and abandoning the never ending cycle that led to the establishment
of UNRWA. Yet this time the efforts will not be despite the Israeli
government, as has been in the past, rather with their support.

*The Palestinian State Illusion*
In the meantime, the illusion of a two-state solution continues to be at the
forefront as the path to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There
are many in Europe who believe that if Israel will give the Palestinians a
state, the conflict will be resolved. The Israel Initiative has started a
series of meeting with European diplomats who work with UNRWA and the
Palestinian Authority, with the purpose of giving them a different viewpoint
on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. These meetings have proved to be of
extreme importance as the diplomats we have met are not in communication
with members of the Israeli Government. Their exposure to the conflict has
been from the Palestinian standpoint.

In an article published on a blog for the Jerusalem Center for Public
Policy, Yonatan D. Halevi explains that there is no difference between
Fatah, who rule in Judea and Samaria, and Hamas, who rule in Gaza. In the
international community, Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization, while
Fatah is an enlightened organization interested in making peace, giving hope
for a peaceful Middle East. However, there is no difference between the two
organizations, whether they wear a kafiye or are clean shaven.

*Why do we Emphasize Rehabilitation?*
Why is the refugee issue such a critical part of our initiative? The answer
is simple: the complexity of the Israeli-Palestinian problem, which as time
goes on seems to be more difficult to fix, its only aspect which Israel has
the room to initiate change is the refugee issue. Many Israelis are unaware
that perpetuation of the refugee issue serves as a source of strength for
the Palestinian national movement. They use the refugee humanitarian crisis
as a springboard for achieving political goals. These goals only serve to
intensify the problem, which in turn jeopardize the region?s stability. As
the columnist Ben Dror Yemini noted, ?this continues to be the decisive
weapon of Palestinian propaganda.?

Once the rehabilitation of the refugees is initiated, even if only among a
minority, the Palestinian problem will decrease in its enormity and the
catalyst behind the right of return will become severely weakened. It is
noteworthy to mention, in one of the Knesset committee?s, a high ranking
member of the Left explained that it is forbidden for Israel to settle the
refugee problem, since that would pull the rug out from under Abu Mazen, who
needs the refugee crisis as a basis for demanding a Palestinian state. Two
weeks ago, the Palestinian Statistics Bureau publicized that the number of
refugees reached 4.7 million. The bureau?s numbers are not very reliable, as
they and UNRWA have been known to exaggerate in their statistics. However,
the numbers are unimportant. Rather the refugee problem exists and continues
to be a driving force for the establishment of a Palestinian State.
According to these statistics, refugees account for 44% of the total
Palestinian population in Judea, Samaria and Gaza: 30.2% in Judea and
Samaria and 69.2% in Gaza.

At a conference held in Jerusalem, National Infrastructure Minister, Uzi
Landau, responded to the Prime Minister?s assertion that he had obtained a
broad consensus on the right solution to the current conflict. He asserted
that a Palestinian state will not solve the current conflict and ?hiding
behind the title ?Palestinian State? is an Iranian regime.?

*Palestinian Refugees - to the USA*
While writing this newsletter it had been published in American media that
the US government intends to absorb 1350 Palestinian refugees in the coming
fall. This is a great opportunity to illustrate the fact that there is an
alternative to ongoing conflict and misery, and that the West can take part
in rehabilitation programs. Sure - these are not UNRWA-treated refugees
(they are not as lucky) but Palestinians from Iraq, which are being treated
as refugees are supposed to be. We hurried to spread this news item in
Israel, accompanied by our interpretation:
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/191694

*Thoughts of 17th of Tamuz
*In the Jewish tradition, the 17th of Tammuz marks the breaching of
Jerusalem?s walls and begins the mourning process for the Temple that was
destroyed. The Talmud relates that even though there was a siege around
Jerusalem, the daily sacrifices in the Temple continued as usual. Each day a
basket was lowered from the wall and an animal was placed in it to fulfill
the daily sacrifices. The Jerusalem Talmud tells of an incident where the
besiegers of the city decided to contaminate the daily Temple services.
Instead of placing a lamb in the basket, a pig was placed inside. As the pig
was being raised up in the basket, it decided to dig its paws into the wall
and caused the land of Israel to shake 400 parsot. This story illustrates
that Jerusalem was not destroyed because of a siege, rather it was the
outcome of a war between brothers and losing a sense for the holiness of
Jerusalem.
The Israel Initiative offices are located in Jerusalem, not far from the
Damascus gate. Here we can feel the unity of Jerusalem, something that we
have merited for the past generation. An important package was put under our
guard, shame on us if the walls of Jerusalem fall again.
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 09:13:05 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
Message-ID: <606036.79478.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Happy B-Day Hanoch!
cody


      
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From zitro4 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 10:08:29 2009
From: zitro4 at yahoo.com (G. Ortiz)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
Message-ID: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Happy Birthday Hanoch







--- On Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM

Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________



      
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From beartrm at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 11:58:25 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Judenrat of Sderot"
Message-ID: <937215.70835.qm@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Happy Birthday Hanoch
?
I have enjoyed reading your articles.? They are truly eye openers and allow me to have abetter insight as to all that is going on in Israel.
?
Shalom,? Susan


--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Judenrat of Sderot"
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:06 AM



It pains me greatly to share the type of information written below, since it can easily be misunderstood and misrepresented, however,?I think it's important to see.? Unfortunately, I agree with the author's assessment, and his facts are all correct.? I'm sharing it with you so you can better understand how?things operate in Israel, and the?elements of "Jewish life" and Jewish history that you don't typically read about.??
?
The term "Judenrat" is the German for 'Jewish Council," and these were the local "leaders" who 'organized' the Jewish communities and dealt with?the Nazis.? It is NOT a flattering expression.....If anyone would like an elaboration on any of the points, please ask, and I'd be happy to oblige.? Well, enough of a disclaimer....
???????????????????????????????????? Hanoch?
?
Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'The Judenrat of Sderot'

The government?s restraint regarding the attacks on Sderot is a continuation
of Zionist Judenrat attitude. During the Arab pogroms of the 1930s, Zionist
leadership adopted a policy of restraint, and a passive defense of settlements.
Such tactics allowed the Arabs to regroup and store weapons in the unchallenged
safety of their villages, and left Jewish passersby easy targets for Arab
saboteurs. When Etzel proclaimed an end to restraint and started actively
targeting random Arabs, leading Zionists condemned its highly effective tactics
as un-Jewish. It would be Jewish to die nicely.

Ben Gurion similarly resigned himself to the death of the six million (seven
million, actually, as many of the Soviet victims were not registered Jewish). He
refused to channel the money collected for Jewish settlement activities to
ransoming Hungarian and Romanian Jews. Zionists not only didn't pound on all the
doors to push to save European Jews, but ostracized Hillel Kook, whose group did
just that.
Zionist restraint has been dictated not by concern for Arabs, but hatred of
Jews. During the War of Independence and for a decade afterwards, Ben Gurion
repressed Arabs with an iron fist, expelled them, and condoned wholesale murder
in Kfar Kasem.

In 1976, incited by Jordan, Palestinians launched a Land Day. Israel?s
military administration, duly warned of the upcoming pogrom, refused to send
reinforcements into Hebron and the settlements, thus leaving Jews there to be
murdered by rioting Arab mobs. The Jews defended themselves valiantly, but the
army detachments only arrived after the fighting had subsided.

In 1994, again, the army knew that the Arabs were preparing a pogrom on Purim.
During a meeting in military headquarters, Dr. Baruch Goldstein was told to
arrange medical aid to Jews, but no reinforcements were brought into the city.

Prisoner exchanges show a similar disregard for Jewish lives. To gain media
applause, Israeli political bosses free hundreds of Jew-murderers.

Assimilated Israeli leaders despise common Jews, who remind them of their own
roots. Poor (Sderot) and religious Jews are detested still more. When there is
an occasion to have them killed by Arab hands, Israeli leaders don?t object.

You may comment at
http://samsonblinded.com/blog/judenrat-sderot.htm

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From rebuntyn at aol.com  Mon Jul 13 12:24:52 2009
From: rebuntyn at aol.com (rebuntyn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:24:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
In-Reply-To: <5CE9F830E14A4C919AC473E78680C17D@davesbook>
References: <E1MPgtC-0007qn-Nm@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<5CE9F830E14A4C919AC473E78680C17D@davesbook>
Message-ID: <8CBD1F5F767FE92-1718-DA0@WEBMAIL-MC18.sysops.aol.com>

Dave,?are all the speakers portions from the April UIWU conference available now??
Please advise. Thanks, Ralph?


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction


http://rootsoffaith.org/?s=jots+and+tittles&search=?
dave?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Runyon" <goodears at jps.net>?
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>?
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:01 PM?
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction?
?
>?
> Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and?
> Tittles"? I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the > Enlarged?
> letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the?
> TaNaCH.?
>?
> Shalom,?
> Ron Runyon?
>?
>?
>?
> _______________________________________________?
> ?
_______________________________________________?

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 13:39:46 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:39:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
Message-ID: <855590370907131139i35035751lea41994769b1ee24@mail.gmail.com>

The *"holier-then-thou" *British have begun to place an embargo on
*some*weapons (and their spare part components!) due to be sold to
Israel.  It
could cripple the weapons systems on the Israeli Navy's gunships.  It's
obviously time to order another shirt before I leave for Israel.  This one
will read:             *   FU*
*                                                     UK  *
You folks don't think it's TOO subtle, do you?    I'd hate to understate my
view, you know...and, it must be* SO hard* for England and the rest of
Europe, Jews aren't willing to be slaughtered any more.....

                          * Hanoch*

*Britain imposes partial arms embargo on Israel
*July 13, 2009

JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Britain imposed a partial arms embargo on Israel.
The British Foreign Office informed Israel that it will *not supply
replacement parts and other equipment for the Sa'ar 4.5 gunship because the
fleet participated in Israel's military offensive in the Gaza Strip*,
Ha'aretz reported Monday.
After reviewing 182 licenses for arms exports to Israel, Britain decided to
cancel five, according to the Israeli daily. The review was announced in
April.
*The embargo follows efforts by British lawmakers and human rights
organizations to impose a complete arms embargo on the Jewish state.
*The British Embassy in Tel Aviv said there had been no change in policy,
according to Reuters.
"We do not believe that the current situation in the Middle East would be
improved by imposing an arms embargo on Israel," the embassy said Monday in
a statement. "Israel has the right to defend itself and faces real security
threats."
The statement adds that "Future decisions will take into account what has
happened in the recent conflict. We do not grant export licenses where there
is a clear risk that arms will be used for external aggression or internal
repression."
*The statement also says that Britain supported the European Union
presidency statement that called Israeli actions during the Gaza operation
"disproportionate." *
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:32:49 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:32:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>
Message-ID: <855590370907131232u607924f2v27c0cf049b450b78@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Cornie!  :-)

      *     Hanoch

*
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

> Hey Hanoch a bit belated happy birthday. Just came home from being gone a
> good part of the day
>
> Cornie
>
>
> Ross Nichols wrote:
>
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:33:37 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:33:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907122144q457c7214ie614c7f829bf1b04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <36DB8215-C7B9-44FE-BC43-1A1F6F8ABC7A@me.com>
	<4A5AA138.1060803@mts.net>
	<1c8dbb6e0907122144q457c7214ie614c7f829bf1b04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907131233j5a2133bcq1e3e6ecd4d2b3886@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Kim!  :-)
                * Hanoch
*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:44 AM, kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hanoch,
> Happy Birthday!
>
> Kim
>
>   On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:
>
>>   Hey Hanoch a bit belated happy birthday. Just came home from being gone
>> a good part of the day
>>
>> Cornie
>>
>>
>> Ross Nichols wrote:
>>
>> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00
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> _______________________________________________
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>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:34:38 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:34:38 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday]
In-Reply-To: <4A5AC96B.9020706@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A5AC96B.9020706@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370907131234m79b25ef1gae1d33aa5d90e3a6@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Joe!  And thanks for the phone message  :-)

           *  Hanoch
*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:43 AM, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

>
> *Hanoch*
>
>
>                                                             *Yom Huledet
> Sameach
>                                 Belated. :-[
>                                    Your Achi Joe.
> *
>
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:35:28 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:35:28 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W6200E16D7D5B692C034398C8220@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W6200E16D7D5B692C034398C8220@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370907131235h33bb7b53rf87809adef15f714@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Catherine! :-)
        *  Hanoch

*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Catherine Cashmore
<chcashmore at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Happy birthday sweet Hanoch - may HaShem greatly bless your journey to His
> land - to home :)
> Oh Betty - I didn't realise Kim and the family had such a tragic loss. I am
> so sorry - my heart and thoughts and prayers go out to you, Kim and the
> beautiful Joshua who lit up the world while he lived, and even more so in
> memory.  May HaShem comfort you and bless you with his love and mercy on
> this day. Happy birthday Joshua.
>
>  ------------------------------
> Upgrade to Internet Explorer 8 Optimised for MSN. Download Now<http://extras.uk.msn.com/internet-explorer-8/?ocid=T010MSN07A0716U>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:36:17 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:36:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <606036.79478.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <606036.79478.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907131236v61bdd277o446207356dd60b62@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Cody!  :-)

       *   Hanoch
*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Cody <oneillcody at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Happy B-Day Hanoch!
> cody
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 14:39:02 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:39:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Gisela!  :-)

       *  Hanoch
*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:08 AM, G. Ortiz <zitro4 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Happy Birthday Hanoch
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
> To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM
>
> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Mon Jul 13 15:56:53 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:56:53 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
Message-ID: <d15.4d303a26.378cf995@aol.com>

Hanoch,
Sorry but I found that offensive.
I get where your coming from in regards to the regulatory bodies over here  
but where is the FU USArseholes t-shirt?? 
cause I haven't seen you post for one of those yet and yet I know you are  
just as incensed by what your own government is doing and in fact started.
 
Just a side note but FCUK t shirts have existed for ages over here, as  
have posters(billboards?) - French Connection UK a clothing brand uses it.
 
Oh and by the way the US refused entry to a lot of Jews after the war and  
had just as many anti-jewish policies - actually they still do, so the 
British  are no more hypocrites than you yanks - but is this really the way we 
want to  go??
 
I know you don't mean this how it is coming across and I know I don't have  
the right to call you for your feelings as a Jewish American soon to  
become an Israeli, but I do have the right to say that branding a whole  peoples 
for the acts of its governments is not acceptable, especially when the  said 
people are not responsible for the actions and many would disagree with  
them.
Best
Melanie
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Mon Jul 13 17:52:18 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:52:18 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] dotted text
Message-ID: <FDEF0CEEF10C47F7981210E1C5D8676C@TESTPC>

 

 

 

Dotted Texts in the Hebrew Bible 

 

 

Throughout the Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, and in the Torah scroll
itself, you can find 15 instances of ?dotted texts?. In these locations in
the text, our tradition tells us that we must place ?dots? on certain
letters of specific words, above and / or below.  

This tradition is explained in a text from Avot D?Rabbi Natan Chap 34.

??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????
????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????: 

?. this is what Ezra stated, ?if Eliyahu comes saying to me ?why did you
write it thus?? I would say to him ? I?ve already dotted them? and if he
says ?you wrote it properly? I will remove the dot from above them.  

Click on each text to see them as they appear in a contemporary Koren
publication of the text of the Hebrew Bible.  

Genesis <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2016.5.pdf>  16:5      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen18.9.pdf>  18:9
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen19.33.pdf> Genesis 19:3
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf> Genesis 33:4      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf>  37:12      Number
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>  3:39      Number
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>  9:10    Numbers 21:30
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num21.30.pdf>
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num29.15.pdf> Numbers 29:15   Deuteronomy 29:28
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Deut29.28.pdf> 

2 <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/2Sam19.20.pdf>  Sam 19:20     Isaiah
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Isaiah44.9.pdf>  44:9     Ezekiel
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel41.20.pdf>  41:20 

Ezekiel <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel46.22.pdf>  46:22     Psalms
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Psalms27.13.pdf>  27:13  

 Very little attention, is paid to the dotted texts outside of those in the
Torah. They appear to be late additions to the Massoretic cannon, not seen
before 6th Century compilations whereas the dotted texts in the Torah are
all attested to in various places in earlier Talmudic literature. (Butin,
1-2)

 Liberman shows how these textual marks are of 2nd Century origin where we
see in Alexadria the use of such dots to denote 'doubtful passages'.
(Liberman, 44) More traditionally, the Sages used these extraordinary points
to call for special interpretation. There were similar marks used in the
Greek sources to denote remarkable passages. It appears that  these points
lost their true meaning very early in the Massoretic tradition. 

Bibliography

The Ten Nequdoth of the Torah (The Meaning and Purpose of the Extraordinary
Points of the Pentateuch
Romain Butin
Ktav Publishing, New York 1969

Hellenism in Jewish Palestine
Saul Liberman
JTS, New York 194 

 

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 18:11:55 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:11:55 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
In-Reply-To: <d15.4d303a26.378cf995@aol.com>
References: <d15.4d303a26.378cf995@aol.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907131611k1f3b4531qfc2ef7de981327c7@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Melanie -

     I am really very sorry that you took offense of what I had intended to
be a criticism of the British government and their policies, NOT the
citizens, who had no 'say' in this decision.  So, my sincere apologies for
anything that sounded offensive to anyone (other then the government),
especially to you, a dear friend.

    In terms of the U.S. government, I *regularly* post negative material
about them.  The current government is a DISASTER for the United States, and
poses grave danger to Israel.  In fact, I have another one going out later
tonight.   I have long since given up on the U.S. government, and already
was given a pin for Israel that has the following inscription:
            F--K Obama!

    To be totally honest, I will wait another 55 days before putting it on,
simply because I would be risking my life wearing it on the streets of New
York.  Now, I've never shied away from a fight before, but I am SO close to
going HOME, that I do not want to risk anything in this country, and
especially this city, any longer.

   BTW...I have seen the French Connection UK clothing - it's very, very
popular here in NYC.  And you make an excellent point by bringing to my
attention that a shirt of the type that I had mentioned would wrongly
implicate the *PEOPLE *of the UK, who I am very fond of.

  And for that reason, I will *NOT *have a shirt or button made with that
kind of inscription - you are 100% correct, and I was absolutely wrong.  In
my rage and anger I rushed to say something that clearly, I had not thought
through.

  So Melanie, once again, please accept my deepest apologies, and thanks,
truly, for bringing it to my attention; and because of the points you make,
I will not wear anything like that.  Once again, I am very, very sorry.

  With deepest humility and embarrassment,
              * Hanoch*

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM, <MELA91E at aol.com> wrote:

>  Hanoch,
> Sorry but I found that offensive.
> I get where your coming from in regards to the regulatory bodies over here
> but where is the FU USArseholes t-shirt??
> cause I haven't seen you post for one of those yet and yet I know you are
> just as incensed by what your own government is doing and in fact started.
>
> Just a side note but FCUK t shirts have existed for ages over here, as have
> posters(billboards?) - French Connection UK a clothing brand uses it.
>
> Oh and by the way the US refused entry to a lot of Jews after the war and
> had just as many anti-jewish policies - actually they still do, so the
> British are no more hypocrites than you yanks - but is this really the way
> we want to go??
>
> I know you don't mean this how it is coming across and I know I don't have
> the right to call you for your feelings as a Jewish American soon to become
> an Israeli, but I do have the right to say that branding a whole peoples for
> the acts of its governments is not acceptable, especially when the said
> people are not responsible for the actions and many would disagree with
> them.
> Best
> Melanie
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 20:08:31 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:08:31 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] the Spin Doctors are going to 'play us'
Message-ID: <855590370907131808o769c3fa8m670940a95c082b4a@mail.gmail.com>

Please pay special close attention to the highlighted sections....Obama is
now trying to 'play' the "Jewish community," and as I warned months ago,
Rahm Emanuel is orchestrating it!  This is without a doubt the most
Arab/Muslim Loving, Anti-Israel American government in history; and it's had
lots of competition for that position!
                              * Hanoch*
**
  Obama Reaches Out to Jews, Excludes Pro-Yesha Zionists Tammuz 21, 5769, 13
July 09 09:49
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
(Israelnationalnews.com)

U.S. President Barack Obama, worried over increasing criticism from Jewish
supporters because of soft talk on Iran and a tough stance against Jews in
Judea and Samaria, *has invited Jewish leaders for a talk Monday. Among
those attending is the strongly dovish J Street lobby. The president
excluded the strongly nationalist National Council of Young Israel (YI) and
Zionist Organization of America (ZOA), *sources told *Israel National News*.


?After his return from Africa this weekend, Obama will be receiving a
delegation of American Jewish community leaders Monday afternoon,? Ben Smith
of *Politco.c*om reported. ?Israel and Iran are likely to be on the agenda,?
he added.

Dr. Aaron Lerner, head of Independent Media Review Analysis (IMRA), said
that a National Council of Young Israel (YI) official told him that the
strongly pro-Israel organization was not among those on the invitation list.
Dr. Lerner added. "It follows that Zionist Organization of America (ZOA)
isn?t in.?

Both organizations are strong backers of a Jewish presence in Judea and
Samaria and oppose American attempts to force Israel to expel its 300,000
residents in order to allow the establishment of a Palestinian Authority
state in their place.

Monday?s chat between the president and Jewish leaders will include the
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish organizations, the
umbrella group for 51 Jewish groups. However, President Obama also has
invited leaders of several individual groups, such as Hadassah, the American
Jewish Committee and American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), as
well as J Street.

The meeting comes one month after President Obama?s ?reaching out to the
Muslim world speech? in Cairo, when he called Jewish communities in Judea
and Samaria ?settlements? that are ?illegitimate.?

Coupled with the Obama administration?s continuing attempts to engage Iran
in diplomacy and its refusal to encourage demonstrators protesting the
alleged rigged elections in the recent president elections in Iran, the
administration?s forceful campaign against Judea and Samaria has worried
many mainstream American Jews.

American Jewry contributed huge amounts of money to the president?s and
local Democratic party campaigns last year, and their influence has been
largely felt through the upstart Jerusalem Street lobby, heavily funded by
billionaire George Soros, who opposes a Jewish presence in Judea and
Samaria.

*Most of President Obama's Jewish advisors, including White House Chief of
Staff Rahm Emanuel, are veterans of the Clinton-Oslo talks era, and have
encouraged the president?s unprecedented statements calling for a total
surrender of Judea and Samaria to the PA.*
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 20:28:24 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:28:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Those meaningful song lyrics
Message-ID: <855590370907131828rd3f8208i915f14a87a6fc3e9@mail.gmail.com>

EXCELLENT choice Dave! Or, as John would say, 'Most Excellent!' :-) I had
never even thought about that song - and it's something I can really relate
to, as well. Well, one of the songs I LOVE is Metallica's 'Enter Sandman'
(you can't imagine a few years ago what it was like in Yankee Stadium as
they would play that for Mariano Rivera coming out to pitch the 9th inning,
and 50,000 fans would go nuts!). Well, while I was getting my 'Enter
Sandman' fix this AM from YouTube, I listened closely to the beautiful and
haunting, "*Nothing Else Matters*," and the following lyrics really jumped
out at me. So here's one back'atcha, as we used to say in the Bronx....

Trust I seek and I find in you
Every day for us something new
Open mind for a different view
and nothing else matters

never cared for what they do
never cared for what they know
but I know

So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
and nothing else matters

never cared for what they do
never cared for what they know
but I know

I'm SURE that Dave and Patty could sing it much better then you and I, Dave.
LOL :-)
Hanoch

David said:

got to include this one by Tom Petty..........

Well I wont back down, no I wont back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I wont back down

Gonna stand my ground, wont be turned around
And Ill keep this world from draggin me down
Gonna stand my ground and I wont back down

Hey baby, there aint no easy way out
Hey I will stand my ground
And I wont back down.

Well I know whats right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin me around
But Ill stand my ground and I wont back down

Hey baby there aint no easy way out
Hey I will stand my ground
And I wont back down
No, I wont back down
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 20:33:02 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:33:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Judenrat of Sderot"
In-Reply-To: <937215.70835.qm@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <937215.70835.qm@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907131833r76ba78d5tc5b3720c4645562a@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Susan!  Thanks :-)

In terms of the articles, yes, I too feel it's really important that we all
know what's really going on, we can plan how to rectify the situation...
The real 'battle plans' will become evident once I hit the ground in
Israel.  Gonna be a real *interesting* time!!  :-)

 Take care,
            * Hanoch
*
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:58 PM, susan strickland <beartrm at yahoo.com>wrote:

>   Happy Birthday Hanoch
>
> I have enjoyed reading your articles.  They are truly eye openers and allow
> me to have abetter insight as to all that is going on in Israel.
>
> Shalom,  Susan
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] "The Judenrat of Sderot"
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:06 AM
>
>
>  It pains me greatly to share the type of information written below, since
> it can easily be misunderstood and misrepresented, however, I think it's
> important to see.  Unfortunately, I agree with the author's assessment, and
> his facts are all correct.  I'm sharing it with you so you can better
> understand how things operate in Israel, and the elements of "Jewish life"
> and Jewish history that you don't typically read about.
>
> The term "Judenrat" is the German for 'Jewish Council," and these were the
> local "leaders" who 'organized' the Jewish communities and dealt with the
> Nazis.  It is NOT a flattering expression.....If anyone would like an
> elaboration on any of the points, please ask, and I'd be happy to oblige.
> Well, enough of a disclaimer....
>                                    *  Hanoch *
> **
> *Samson Blinded* has posted a new item,* 'The Judenrat of Sderot'
> *
> The government?s restraint regarding the attacks on Sderot is a
> continuation
> of Zionist Judenrat attitude. During the Arab pogroms of the 1930s, Zionist
> leadership adopted a policy of restraint, and a passive defense of
> settlements.
> Such tactics allowed the Arabs to regroup and store weapons in the
> unchallenged
> safety of their villages, and left Jewish passersby easy targets for Arab
> saboteurs. When Etzel proclaimed an end to restraint and started actively
> targeting random Arabs, leading Zionists condemned its highly effective
> tactics
> as un-Jewish. It would be Jewish to die nicely.
>
> Ben Gurion similarly resigned himself to the death of the six million
> (seven
> million, actually, as many of the Soviet victims were not registered
> Jewish). He
> refused to channel the money collected for Jewish settlement activities to
> ransoming Hungarian and Romanian Jews. Zionists not only didn't pound on
> all the
> doors to push to save European Jews, but ostracized Hillel Kook, whose
> group did
> just that.
> Zionist restraint has been dictated not by concern for Arabs, but hatred of
> Jews. During the War of Independence and for a decade afterwards, Ben
> Gurion
> repressed Arabs with an iron fist, expelled them, and condoned wholesale
> murder
> in Kfar Kasem.
>
> In 1976, incited by Jordan, Palestinians launched a Land Day. Israel?s
> military administration, duly warned of the upcoming pogrom, refused to
> send
> reinforcements into Hebron and the settlements, thus leaving Jews there to
> be
> murdered by rioting Arab mobs. The Jews defended themselves valiantly, but
> the
> army detachments only arrived after the fighting had subsided.
>
> In 1994, again, the army knew that the Arabs were preparing a pogrom on
> Purim.
> During a meeting in military headquarters, Dr. Baruch Goldstein was told to
> arrange medical aid to Jews, but no reinforcements were brought into the
> city.
>
> Prisoner exchanges show a similar disregard for Jewish lives. To gain media
> applause, Israeli political bosses free hundreds of Jew-murderers.
>
> Assimilated Israeli leaders despise common Jews, who remind them of their
> own
> roots. Poor (Sderot) and religious Jews are detested still more. When there
> is
> an occasion to have them killed by Arab hands, Israeli leaders don?t
> object.
>
> You may comment at
> http://samsonblinded.com/blog/judenrat-sderot.htm
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul 14 05:05:51 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:05:51 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]
Message-ID: <4A5C587F.4010502@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:56:53 EDT
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From cormary at mts.net  Tue Jul 14 06:57:09 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:57:09 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]
In-Reply-To: <4A5C587F.4010502@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A5C587F.4010502@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4A5C7295.2040806@mts.net>

Amen Joe and also Hanoch in all his notorious zeal,  I was up a little 
earlier today and started to work on my 20 year old diary on bipolar. 
Which i had laid away on a shelf because it was seeming too offensive at 
that time, and I had too much of a grasshopper mentality at that time to 
find the truth. I found it kind of amusing  how it kind of coincides 
with what you and Hanoch wrote, when I decided to check my e-mails in 
between and found yours, Joe.

Here is a little of what I added to that 20 year old diary this morning 
as follows:

 I realize now that I was really not the man of God that it takes to 
make peace in the home, on the conditions of our case, and if anyone 
reading this, knows anything about Yasser Arafat the Palestinian leader 
of a number of years ago who died of aids as I understand. Who was the 
dirtiest murdering terrorist imaginable. He likely was bipolar,  (I have 
never heard or read this term being given to him) which, was this to be 
the case, could be the reason that I used to use him as an example and 
have a document written about it. And you will likely think I was crazy 
for even thinking in the terms I am going to use for an example, namely 
that my own dear not so loving wife's behavior was comparable to the 
behavior of this murderer and top terrorist of his time!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 There used to be a Mennonite lady reporter by the name of Plett, who 
cried when she heard that this */dear/* man, Yasser Arafat died. Yes in 
public he could act very good and actually won a noble peace prize, as 
though he was a peace maker, but in reality, and I was following his 
procedures and what was going on in the middle east as a whole quite 
close, I knew who he really was. Now who would really want such a 
character as a marriage partner??? Who with a clear mind would want to 
get married to such a partner, with any hopes of peace in the home??? 
And I was even told by her dad, who wanted to make himself free before 
me. That according to his judgment his daughter now my wife of over 50 
years should really not get married! Now that is not something a father 
would really enjoy telling a young man as a proposal for marriage to his 
daughter. Why would he have told me that? Not anything else than a 
desperate knowledge of the fearful consequences this could entail, that 
he personally knew out of experience.

 

Now the good news is, that this need not be all that bad in the long 
haul. This marriage of ours, did turn to good. This very situation did 
make a man out of me. To whom does the credit go if we talk of either 
one of us two involved? I have no question about it, and am not 
hesitating to answer, the credit goes to my dear, although not so loving 
wife Mary. If it was not for her bipolar behavior, in ignorance having 
played havoc in our home, I dread to think of where I would be now. And 
the same goes for Yasser Arafat, he had a good purpose role to play in 
Israel. Our God does not make mistakes. It was He who saw a good purpose 
for Israel to go through that awful experience, and it was He who saw a 
good purpose for Mary to become my wife. Were they really to be 
compared? In a sense very much so, the behavior of a victim of bipolar 
not in control is not very easy to explain, when in public they know how 
to behave beautifully, and seem to be innocent.  Seeming to innocently 
believe their own lies. And I am NOT exaggerating it either. There was a 
reason why I compared my own wife with Arafat. Now that sounds very 
awful, that is true.  But some times that is the only way  the God of 
Israel, the God of the Jews will get through to them.

 

Arafat got the whole world to be incensed against Israel, to think they, 
Israel really must be in the wrong, (and you have to remember, he did 
that all religiously in the name of Allah, his god,)  Likewise Mary, 
religiously in the name of god, quite innocently got a whole 
congregation,  actually the whole 25,000 member church to believe I was 
wrong. Not being grounded on real truth, I was allowing her to 
spiritually murder my reputation so bad, and repeatedly so, I didn't 
even try to persuade them different, as I was aware that it was futile. 
Although I knew I was innocent, to a point at least. And I also knew 
that I was far from being perfect to take this all in, in total emuna. 
In fact I did not know what real emuna is, like most of Christianity 
very likely is lacking!!!!!! But I did know there was something deep 
down in Mary that lounged for a release. As soon also as Israel will 
know the truth, as a nation, they will get their cousins, the Arabs to 
be able to see how wrong they had been all that time. And their soul was 
lounging to be released of this falsehood, this bipolar mentality had 
been keeping them from seeing it.

 

There is a beautiful soul in Mary, hungering for the sun of 
righteousness to shine on it. This was my obligation which I had 
ignorantly failed to fulfill. Just like Israel has failed in great 
ignorance to be a light to the nations, while the bipolar world is 
despising and torturing them like crazy. I needed to take a stand for 
truth. And low and behold,. already  the dawn is glimmering through a 
very dark night in our own little world indeed. There is respect 
already, there is a warm hug once in a while. All because I started to 
realize I had  NO REASON to ever criticize, or correct my own dear wife. 
I just needed to let an example of the  the warmth of the sun reflecting 
on the moon  to go into effect on my own dear wife.  This I did not 
learn in the church that she still adheres to, but from the warmth of 
true Torah emuna of the Jews, as a light to the nations.

I hope this is not too offensive the way I expressed my self in regards 
to my own Christian wife. If it is please anyone help me out of the love 
of Hashem. The old diary is in black. What is in blue, all of this is 
added this morning.

Shalom from Cornie




JOE INDOMENICO wrote:
> /Shalom Melanie,
>
> I would never have taken Hanoch's statement regarding the UK as being 
> a personal attack on the British people. I know him well enough to 
> understand his rancour was intended at the policy makers. I am quite 
> certain that Hanoch can and has spoken for himself.
>
> Having said that and without any prejudice to any nation in any shape 
> and size, I am going to put my neck on the line here.
> Being Italian by birth and Australian by citizenship has no bearing on 
> my affiliation to these countries not withstanding my love for my fellows.
> My affiliation is to HaShem, His Torah, His people and His Land.
> Truth, justice and righteousness are the hallmarks that we should seek 
> in any society.
> If these elements are compromised then why should one get touchy about 
> nationalism.
> The plight of the innocent, yes, but nationalism ?
>
> There is a fine line between society in general and certain 
> individuals who create havoc within that society.
> The gauge of that society and its stature is commensurate with how it 
> deals with those rogue elements.
> Now whilst those elements may give the decent  citizens a bad 
> standing,  it must be stressed that those same law abiding citizens 
> have the responsibility to the law of the land that upholds the very 
> fabric of society.
>
> In the Jewish Vidui or Confession that is recited during Yom Kippur, 
> the prayers that are recited deal with sins of commission and sins of 
> omission.
> I recently posted a video showing a full blown demonstration at a 
> French shopping centre in Paris where a group of pro Palestinian 
> activists were boycotting Israeli made goods. They were systematically 
> scanning the shopping isles for any items that had a "made in Israel 
> "sticker attached and removing these items from the shelves amidst 
> unfounded vitriolic and antisemitic slander and innuendo.
> Was this an attack on the government of Yisrael or was it an attack on 
> the innocent manufacturers and citizens of Yisrael?
> The collective is always the victim. There is no distinction between 
> good , bad or ugly.
> During the Paris incident , where was the protest from the shoppers ?
> Where was the management ?
> Where was the law enforcement ?
> What happened to all the anti discrimination laws in so called 
> democratic France.
> If you look closely at the images you will see not one boo >:o or 
> objection, just onlookers. :-X
> This was manufactured into a media event and political stunt that 
> obtained its objection.
> What we see is stealing, vandalizing and anti discrimination.
> So the perpetrators are in the sin of commission, whilst the onlookers 
> are  in the sin of omission.
>
> These are grave images that are happening all over the world.
> During the Gaza war earlier this year, the Islamic fundamentalists  
> of  South Western Sydney burst out into spontaneous and hostile 
> protest calling for the killing of Jews under the provocative act of 
> Israeli flag burning. Of course the media was there. No police or 
> government approval. They just went ahead and did it.
> On the other hand it is almost impossible to gather police and 
> government approval for anything that was pro Yisrael.
> We seemed to be ruled by double standards that are a farce to freedom 
> of speech.
>
> What makes this alarming is not the criminal and terrorist elements 
> but the insipid and "couldn't care less "attitude of the so called 
> decent folk not to mention those that tacitly approve.
> This is telling me that there is something terribly wrong within our 
> societies.
>
> During Nazi Germany we saw the mass public adulation of the Fuhrer. 
> After the war there was mass public denial of involvement in the Nazi 
> movement. Nazism in Germany and Fascism in Italy could not of 
> prospered unless there was support from the rank and file of the 
> population including the Catholic Church.
> One might say that through the power of fear these regimes prospered. 
> However there was every opportunity to have nipped them in the bud 
> before they took full blossom. The populace gave the required fuel to 
> get them going. Call it apathy, tacit approval or whatever.
> There is a saying "woe to world, when evil arrives and good men do 
> nothing."
>
> No nation can stand before Ribbono Shel Olam, Master of the Universe 
> if compromised.
> There is too much history that has passed under the bridge which I 
> will not elaborate on.
> Looking at the present there are many Western nations that would 
> absolute delight in Yisrael unilaterally striking Iran but in the same 
> breath would be prepared to condemn Yisrael for such action.
> Gutless wonders, they are more interested in having someone else do 
> the dirty work so as not to tarnish their world political image and 
> then look for the historical scapegoat.
>
> Chamberlain taught the world the politics of appeasement and the fury 
> that it unleashed upon the innocent peoples of many lands.
> What _*all*_ western nations are engaged in currently is the 
> dismantling of Eretz Yisrael bit by bit.
> This divine appointed land to the people of Yisrael...... a two State 
> solution????????
>
> For the world it is very easy to hate the Jew but fear the Arab.
> A Jew will not blow up your restaurants, train stations, buses and 
> office towers but the Arab fundamentalist..........
>
> Give me Hanoch any day with his f'n protest T shirt than the suicide 
> belt murderer.
> He will come looking for the decent innocent folk as has been 
> evidenced on 9/11, 12/10 , 7/7 and all the other tragedies.
>
> Our governments owe Yisrael and its people their full undivided 
> support.... all the way in every way.
> This is what will protect their own innocent and decent folk.
> Remember the famous quote of the Arab fundamentalist "First the 
> Saturday people and then the Sunday people."
> If there is apathy and tacit support, what signal does this send to 
> the governments?
>
> If I am a decent Italian or Australian , the answer is quite clear.
> If I am looking for truth, justice and righteousness, this is what 
> defines me as a decent human being irrespective of my nationality.
> We must be heard or are we any better than the suicide bomber ?
> *If we omit he commits.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
> /
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
> From:
> MELA91E at aol.com
> Date:
> Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:56:53 EDT
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Hanoch,
> Sorry but I found that offensive.
> I get where your coming from in regards to the regulatory bodies over 
> here but where is the FU USArseholes t-shirt??
> cause I haven't seen you post for one of those yet and yet I know you 
> are just as incensed by what your own government is doing and in fact 
> started.
>  
> Just a side note but FCUK t shirts have existed for ages over here, as 
> have posters(billboards?) - French Connection UK a clothing brand uses it.
>  
> Oh and by the way the US refused entry to a lot of Jews after the war 
> and had just as many anti-jewish policies - actually they still do, so 
> the British are no more hypocrites than you yanks - but is this really 
> the way we want to go??
>  
> I know you don't mean this how it is coming across and I know I don't 
> have the right to call you for your feelings as a Jewish American 
> soon to become an Israeli, but I do have the right to say that 
> branding a whole peoples for the acts of its governments is not 
> acceptable, especially when the said people are not responsible for 
> the actions and many would disagree with them.
> Best
> Melanie
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2236 - Release Date: 07/13/09 17:57:00
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>   

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From rossknichols at me.com  Tue Jul 14 09:25:00 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:25:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
Message-ID: <1F29E738-C21E-4C5A-8EBD-F382F2826FC9@me.com>

I intend to write more later in the day about this if I have time, but  
feel that I should direct everyone's attention back to the purpose of  
this list.

If you have never read it, or if it has been a while since you read  
it, please do so. I have a great deal of time and energy invested into  
learning and in trying to practice true dialogue. I do this in my  
personal and professional life as well. I believe in it and in the  
results that can be achieved when people participate in real dialogue.

I have chosen to allow all sorts of discussions to take place on this  
list because I have felt that people were demonstrating a need to  
simply communicate, but now I feel that I should point people back to  
a more focused approach to the great "biblical" questions of our day.  
Perhaps this is because of my limited interest in other topics. Not  
real sure, but we have an excellent opportunity with our mixed  
multitude to air out our views and discover wonderful truth if we do  
this and do it right.

Please read the document again!

Www.rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list

Sent from my iPhone


From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Tue Jul 14 10:29:27 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:29:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <865D6298743E47EB8C65EF588D7A7EB8@dickLPC>

    Just read of your Birthday Hanoch. May U have many Healthy & Happy one's for a long time.  Dick L


          Happy Birthday Hanoch



               
               



          --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


            From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
            Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
            To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
            Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM


            Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

            Sent from my iPhone
            _______________________________________________
         


    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



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From MELA91E at aol.com  Tue Jul 14 17:56:08 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:56:08 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!
Message-ID: <c0d.58366315.378e6708@aol.com>

Hanoch,
 
Feel free to wear any tshirt that says FU UK.GOV as I and many others would 
 have no problem with that at all - and I will say that regardless whatever 
 political party is in as I believe it is the right of the people to 
dispute  their government and especially when they are as barren as the ones these 
days  seem all to be.
 
Your apology is accepted but wasn't really needed as I knew you were angry  
and as such what was coming out was not clearly expressed. I know how very 
easy  it is in anger to say/type the wrong thing without meaning to. Please 
know that  I know you didn't mean it personally and I hope you and I really 
are still  friends and that I didn't come over as too sanctimonious or 
offensive in return. 
 
I do understand your anger - I really do and I share it with you. But I do  
get concerned when we just start hurling stones at one another for I see 
there a  slippery path that leads to nothing but bias and barriers instead of 
the path of  HaShem - a way through the wilderness. And believe me I think 
we are in that  wilderness indeed.
We do have a duty to make a stand, to stand up and speak out against wrong  
and injustice just as the prophets did, we are called to that - I honestly 
do  believe this, but I think unless we want to end up down the bottom of 
the well -  or worse under a withering plant due to our own hardness of heart 
- we all the  while need to temper our righteous anger and fury with balance 
and accord and  the word of HaShem on our lips.
I am glad therefore that you practice this at home with the obama badge!  
Hanoch I want good things only ever for you - I want Aliyah for you! and I 
hope  HaShem will one day grant that I can come to Israel to at the least 
visit you  there and share in your joy and if need be in your battle for the 
land - take  that as truth and commitment from me.
 
Hugz 
 
Melanie
 
 
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Tue Jul 14 18:58:18 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:58:18 EDT
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]
Message-ID: <d03.5dae4e87.378e759a@aol.com>

Joe,
 
I totally agree and my loyalty is forst, foremost and always with HaShem as 
 well, and you are right, Truth, Justice and Righteousness are the 
hallmarks we  not only should but must seek. And these apply equally to all of us 
and in all  ways, that's actaully why I took a little exception to the waythis 
justifiable  upset and anger was phrased. Though it was a truthful and 
righteous reaction to  injustice - it wasn't, to my way of thinking and 
understanding of the biblical  concepts espoused,  put forward in an overly just or 
righteous way,  and the blanket statements used weren't really truthful by a 
strict  definition.
That's just my thoughts though and my understanding of it - perhaps we can  
do some studies on the concepts of Truth, justice and righteousness and 
what  they mean for us as individuals and as societies, because my belief is it 
is the  erosion of these integral things that have led us to the point of 
desolation we  now are in.
 
As to the plight of the innocent against nationalism - actaully that was  
the point I was attempting to make - the blanket statement as phrased 
condemned  the innocent with the guilty (and yes I know thats not what was intended 
but its  how it read nontheless) and when we start doing this we lead the 
way to our own  doom, judgement and downfall because we begin to open the way 
for dehumanisation  - the type of dehumanisation that leads to war and 
violence and the type of  nationalism that breaks down into me/mine and 
other/enemy. That makes way for  the hitlers of the world.
 
As to sins of ommission and commission - yes there are two ways to sin, by  
our action and our failure to act - is one worse than the other? no for 
both  have the same end result - however can there be reasons for one over the 
other -  yes, fear.
I am including a link to an article by Melanie Phillips - in it you will  
see one witness statement of someone not being willing to state their 
pro-israel  state for fear, and understandably so. Regardless of what we may want 
there is  truth in the saying that 'Discretion is the better part of valor'.
I also include a link to a BBC (biased broadcasting corporation) news  
report on one of the rallies we held as pro-Israel supporters - and yes the  
government over here did allow it - though i do agree that in the pro-gaza  
rallies there were times when the pro-isreal campaigners were expected to be  
silent or sensible (again that depends on your sense of self - there were 
people  there everyday and the police did try to do a good job of defending 
them to  the best of their ability where they could). 
So I appreciate your position is formed by your setting as is mine, and  
mine is not about national identity, though i have no shame of where I come 
from  and would no more expect you to feel it or anyone else on this list. 
there is  nothing wrong with loving where you are so long as HaShem comes 
first, then for  me it would probably be family, other people, creatures and then 
land!
I agree with your quote of good men doing nothing - though I prefer the  
whole quote of 
 
_http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7822656.stm_ 
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7822656.stm) 
_http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1110573/Violent-Gaza-protests-rev
eal-gentle-civilised-Britain-changed-ugly-indeed.html;jsessionid=755B1828D97
C1E489F54429DAF7ECBEC_ 
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1110573/Violent-Gaza-protests-reveal-gentle-civilised-Britain-changed-ugly-indeed.html
;jsessionid=755B1828D97C1E489F54429DAF7ECBEC) 
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Tue Jul 14 19:22:34 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:22:34 EDT
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]
Message-ID: <c20.5fbaa5a3.378e7b4a@aol.com>

Oops hit send without meaning to!
 
I agree with your quote of good men doing nothing - though I prefer the  
quote of Edmund Burke, 'When bad men combine, the good must associate;  else 
they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible  
struggle' from his 'Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents'  as can be 
found in better detail here: 
_http://squigglejones.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/silence-is-not-always-golden/_ 
(http://squigglejones.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/silence-is-not-always-golden/) 
 and as you can clearly tell I wholeheartedly agree with us joining  
together and being heard - this is in the end the only way.
 
It is for this reason that I think we must work together in Truth, in  
Justice and in Righteousness working solely for HaShems aims and goals and not  
allowing our own blindness to disrupt this way, not building our own gold 
calves  because we think that something is not right or that we can chivvy the 
way  rather than trusting on HaShems word and time. Oh and believe me this 
is not  said lightly by me as I like smelting others gold for my own purpose 
and agenda  and I have frequently tried to barter the gold that is all the 
wonder HaShem has  gifted me with for a little more something to my liking 
thinking I could know  better what was best for me - for I am a foolish 
foolish person and am  constantly being called to task.
I once said on SWW that Jeremiah was my fave prophet and he so so is and I  
constantly am called to his moaning and his lessons, but alongside Jeremiah 
I  find that Jonah speaks reams to me - and I think he speaks a little for 
this  time as well - I would be most interested to know what others think on 
 this.
 
So Joe, I get what your saying and I guess probably we are sort of at the  
same place but approaching it from different ways - it's not about 
nationalism,  it is about truth, justice, righteousness and accuracy.
 
Thanks for the thoughts, both yours and the ones they conditioned me to  
have too! :0)
 
Blessings
 
Melanie
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From rossknichols at me.com  Tue Jul 14 20:46:14 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:46:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <8A9C77C6-1026-4503-869C-D7D89F72A72B@me.com>

Melanie,

In your last message you said the following:

I once said on SWW that Jeremiah was my fave prophet and he so so is  
and I constantly am called to his moaning and his lessons, but  
alongside Jeremiah I find that Jonah speaks reams to me - and I think  
he speaks a little for this time as well - I would be most interested  
to know what others think on this.

I would be interested in your views on this subject. Perhaps others  
will jump in. What do others see in the book of Jonah? I have some  
thoughts on this but want others to jump in. Let's talk about the  
bible. What say ye? Whatever country you come from or political views  
you may hold...put all that aside for this discussion.

Shalom

Sent from my iPhone
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Jul 14 21:41:31 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:41:31 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]]
Message-ID: <4A5D41DB.7000902@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Those British hypocrites!!]
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 14 22:03:21 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:03:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] dotted text
In-Reply-To: <FDEF0CEEF10C47F7981210E1C5D8676C@TESTPC>
References: <FDEF0CEEF10C47F7981210E1C5D8676C@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <77879BD57E34484798C08E180EC3DF2A@bettylaptop>

Marvin, this is very interesting.  I looked up a number of these passages in
several of my Hebrew Bibles.  If I am understanding the reasoning correctly,
it seems much like the example of the ancient scribes with their textual
notes, written in the margin on passages that they thought might have
another meaning.  Here the dots are to identify certain words or phrases
that are of doubtful meaning?just to note that they could have miss-read the
original manuscripts and perhaps miss-translated the text???

Interesting and quite remarkable how dedicated these scribes were to
preserving the text and taking every precaution to record it exactly as it
was written, not taking any liberties, but recording their doubts with
?dots.?  Rather ingenious and admirable. 

 

I also ran across the ?Great Lamed? in Gen 33, which was very interesting as
well.  

 

Thanks & Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:52 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] dotted text

 

 

 

 

Dotted Texts in the Hebrew Bible 

 

 

Throughout the Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, and in the Torah scroll
itself, you can find 15 instances of ?dotted texts?. In these locations in
the text, our tradition tells us that we must place ?dots? on certain
letters of specific words, above and / or below. 

This tradition is explained in a text from Avot D?Rabbi Natan Chap 34.

??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????
????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????: 

?. this is what Ezra stated, ?if Eliyahu comes saying to me ?why did you
write it thus?? I would say to him ? I?ve already dotted them? and if he
says ?you wrote it properly? I will remove the dot from above them. 

Click on each text to see them as they appear in a contemporary Koren
publication of the text of the Hebrew Bible. 

Genesis <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2016.5.pdf>  16:5      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen18.9.pdf>  18:9   Genesis 19:3
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen19.33.pdf>     Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf>  33:4      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf>  37:12      Number
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>  3:39      Number 9:10
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>     Numbers
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num21.30.pdf>  21:30     Numbers
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num29.15.pdf>  29:15   Deuteronomy 29:28
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Deut29.28.pdf> 

2 <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/2Sam19.20.pdf>  Sam 19:20     Isaiah
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Isaiah44.9.pdf>  44:9     Ezekiel
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel41.20.pdf>  41:20 

Ezekiel <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel46.22.pdf>  46:22     Psalms
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Psalms27.13.pdf>  27:13 

 Very little attention, is paid to the dotted texts outside of those in the
Torah. They appear to be late additions to the Massoretic cannon, not seen
before 6th Century compilations whereas the dotted texts in the Torah are
all attested to in various places in earlier Talmudic literature. (Butin,
1-2)

 Liberman shows how these textual marks are of 2nd Century origin where we
see in Alexadria the use of such dots to denote 'doubtful passages'.
(Liberman, 44) More traditionally, the Sages used these extraordinary points
to call for special interpretation. There were similar marks used in the
Greek sources to denote remarkable passages. It appears that  these points
lost their true meaning very early in the Massoretic tradition. 

Bibliography

The Ten Nequdoth of the Torah (The Meaning and Purpose of the Extraordinary
Points of the Pentateuch
Romain Butin
Ktav Publishing, New York 1969

Hellenism in Jewish Palestine
Saul Liberman
JTS, New York 194 

 

 

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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 22:24:31 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:24:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
In-Reply-To: <8A9C77C6-1026-4503-869C-D7D89F72A72B@me.com>
References: <8A9C77C6-1026-4503-869C-D7D89F72A72B@me.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907142024q7d30267fid6f60c866289f243@mail.gmail.com>

Ross,
I'm going to refresh myself and read Jonah tonight.  Will get back with
you....

Kim

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> Melanie,
>
> In your last message you said the following:
>
> I once said on SWW that Jeremiah was my fave prophet and he so so is and I
> constantly am called to his moaning and his lessons, but alongside Jeremiah
> I find that Jonah speaks reams to me - and I think he speaks a little for
> this time as well - I would be most interested to know what others think on
> this.
>
> I would be interested in your views on this subject. Perhaps others will
> jump in. What do others see in the book of Jonah? I have some thoughts on
> this but want others to jump in. Let's talk about the bible. What say ye?
> Whatever country you come from or political views you may hold...put all
> that aside for this discussion.
>
> Shalom
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Jul 14 22:38:09 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:38:09 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] dotted text
In-Reply-To: <77879BD57E34484798C08E180EC3DF2A@bettylaptop>
References: <FDEF0CEEF10C47F7981210E1C5D8676C@TESTPC>
	<77879BD57E34484798C08E180EC3DF2A@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <F87C8D6C02104963B7B1B3C3378B1693@TESTPC>

Betty,

 

Can?t say I know much about it but, was doing some other reading and study
when I accidently came across this article.  Thought I would pass it on.
Hopefully someone more learned  will fill in the details for us.   I also
want to spend some time on this subject.

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty K Givin
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 11:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] dotted text

 

Marvin, this is very interesting.  I looked up a number of these passages in
several of my Hebrew Bibles.  If I am understanding the reasoning correctly,
it seems much like the example of the ancient scribes with their textual
notes, written in the margin on passages that they thought might have
another meaning.  Here the dots are to identify certain words or phrases
that are of doubtful meaning?just to note that they could have miss-read the
original manuscripts and perhaps miss-translated the text???

Interesting and quite remarkable how dedicated these scribes were to
preserving the text and taking every precaution to record it exactly as it
was written, not taking any liberties, but recording their doubts with
?dots.?  Rather ingenious and admirable. 

 

I also ran across the ?Great Lamed? in Gen 33, which was very interesting as
well.  

 

Thanks & Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:52 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] dotted text

 

 

 

 

Dotted Texts in the Hebrew Bible 

 

 

Throughout the Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, and in the Torah scroll
itself, you can find 15 instances of ?dotted texts?. In these locations in
the text, our tradition tells us that we must place ?dots? on certain
letters of specific words, above and / or below. 

This tradition is explained in a text from Avot D?Rabbi Natan Chap 34.

??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????
????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????: 

?. this is what Ezra stated, ?if Eliyahu comes saying to me ?why did you
write it thus?? I would say to him ? I?ve already dotted them? and if he
says ?you wrote it properly? I will remove the dot from above them. 

Click on each text to see them as they appear in a contemporary Koren
publication of the text of the Hebrew Bible. 

Genesis <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2016.5.pdf>  16:5      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen18.9.pdf>  18:9   Genesis 19:3
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen19.33.pdf>     Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf>  33:4      Genesis
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Gen%2037-12.pdf>  37:12      Number
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>  3:39      Number 9:10
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num9.10.pdf>     Numbers
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num21.30.pdf>  21:30     Numbers
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Num29.15.pdf>  29:15   Deuteronomy 29:28
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Deut29.28.pdf> 

2 <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/2Sam19.20.pdf>  Sam 19:20     Isaiah
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Isaiah44.9.pdf>  44:9     Ezekiel
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel41.20.pdf>  41:20 

Ezekiel <http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Ezekiel46.22.pdf>  46:22     Psalms
<http://www.taskilu.ca/dots/Psalms27.13.pdf>  27:13 

 Very little attention, is paid to the dotted texts outside of those in the
Torah. They appear to be late additions to the Massoretic cannon, not seen
before 6th Century compilations whereas the dotted texts in the Torah are
all attested to in various places in earlier Talmudic literature. (Butin,
1-2)

 Liberman shows how these textual marks are of 2nd Century origin where we
see in Alexadria the use of such dots to denote 'doubtful passages'.
(Liberman, 44) More traditionally, the Sages used these extraordinary points
to call for special interpretation. There were similar marks used in the
Greek sources to denote remarkable passages. It appears that  these points
lost their true meaning very early in the Massoretic tradition. 

Bibliography

The Ten Nequdoth of the Torah (The Meaning and Purpose of the Extraordinary
Points of the Pentateuch
Romain Butin
Ktav Publishing, New York 1969

Hellenism in Jewish Palestine
Saul Liberman
JTS, New York 194 

 

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 14 22:51:06 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:51:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907142024q7d30267fid6f60c866289f243@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8A9C77C6-1026-4503-869C-D7D89F72A72B@me.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907142024q7d30267fid6f60c866289f243@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1EFB28DE8394F8897AC8F410B2ED956@bettylaptop>

Ross and Kim,  I will as well.  

For some reason, Jonah came up in our Torah study last weekend, and I am
trying to think of the connection, but it is gone from my mind.

But what does come to mind is that when we think of Jonah I think most of us
are probably missing the whole point of the book when we think it is all
about the "big fish" that HaShem created to save Jonah's life, not that that
was certainly a grand and miraculous work that HaShem did.  In my
understanding, it was just a means to an end to give Jonah another chance to
carry him to Nineveh so that he might do what HaShem had originally
instructed him to do.  There are so many lessons here for us, but I would
like to see what Melanie and Kim and you and Joe and others have to say.

 

Thanks, Ross, for starting the initiative to help us "Get Biblical!"

 

Shalom, shalom!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:25 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks

 

Ross,

 

I'm going to refresh myself and read Jonah tonight.  Will get back with
you....

 

Kim

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

Melanie,

 

In your last message you said the following:

 

I once said on SWW that Jeremiah was my fave prophet and he so so is and I
constantly am called to his moaning and his lessons, but alongside Jeremiah
I find that Jonah speaks reams to me - and I think he speaks a little for
this time as well - I would be most interested to know what others think on
this.

 

I would be interested in your views on this subject. Perhaps others will
jump in. What do others see in the book of Jonah? I have some thoughts on
this but want others to jump in. Let's talk about the bible. What say ye?
Whatever country you come from or political views you may hold...put all
that aside for this discussion.

 

Shalom

Sent from my iPhone


_______________________________________________

 

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 15 06:15:33 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:15:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Yo...
Message-ID: <SNT108-W13B5571CA71BF34398815C8200@phx.gbl>


I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Your experience is a humbling one to read and contains elements that point towards profound depth.  You are a blessing to us all. THANK YOU!

_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/

From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 15 06:24:21 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:24:21 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>


I understand your thoughts Ross, however I find the topics on this list endlessly interesting and incredibly useful to my own studies.  I sense a continual flowing dialogue that has no limitations and yet is bound together in Love for HaShem.  I trust that He has bought us together to share our thoughts - in all capacities and I truly believe we do that each day.  I think for all of us here, the people we correspond to on this list are of major importance to our every day lives.  I know they are to mine.  I was reading my Chumash tonight and a little of the commentary which expresses how the Torah is not just restricted to one area of our life, but covers all areas of our lives and our very existence - political, scriptural, spiritual, physical etc. No limitations  Therefore lets focus on all aspects of dialoguel  The great biblical subjects, our personal stories and needs, our political frustrations, and above all our love for one another and need for Torah.  Let's celebrate that we have such a wonderful opportunity to be united as Israel will one day be united under the truth and glory of HaShem.
I can only thank you Ross for letting us have and helping create such a wonderful outlet in our lives!
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From webhulon at msn.com  Wed Jul 15 06:55:29 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:55:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W49EA8006B136AC9A20DCD2C5200@phx.gbl>


Shalom,

Maybe someone should start a SWW dialogue list for birthdays and prayer request and sharing depressions and back patting.  I believe this is more the idea behind SWW.  Or maybe just start another bible based list and let the ROF continue in its social function.  

 

Also, many of these things (ie. birthdays and "you are so wonderful" post) would certainly be more appropriate for private email than on a dialogue.


I would certainly like to see something with more meat and also with some original thought.  All of the postings of the thoughts and opinions of Rabbis and A7 news articles is one thing, but let's have more of the scholarly pursuits of the list.  A great step toward loving your neighbor is to share with him/her what you are seeing in your studies. If your studies consist of reading articles on the net then it is time to turn off the computer and open the books.

 

I would like to start by challenging my students that are a part of this list to start posting some substantial thoughts.  Set the standard and raise the bar.

 

 

Web Hulon


 


From: chcashmore at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:24:21 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list



I understand your thoughts Ross, however I find the topics on this list endlessly interesting and incredibly useful to my own studies.  I sense a continual flowing dialogue that has no limitations and yet is bound together in Love for HaShem.  I trust that He has bought us together to share our thoughts - in all capacities and I truly believe we do that each day.  I think for all of us here, the people we correspond to on this list are of major importance to our every day lives.  I know they are to mine.  I was reading my Chumash tonight and a little of the commentary which expresses how the Torah is not just restricted to one area of our life, but covers all areas of our lives and our very existence - political, scriptural, spiritual, physical etc. No limitations  Therefore lets focus on all aspects of dialoguel  The great biblical subjects, our personal stories and needs, our political frustrations, and above all our love for one another and need for Torah.  Let's celebrate that we have such a wonderful opportunity to be united as Israel will one day be united under the truth and glory of HaShem.


I can only thank you Ross for letting us have and helping create such a wonderful outlet in our lives!


View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place ? Learn more!
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul 15 06:59:01 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:59:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Yo...
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W13B5571CA71BF34398815C8200@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W13B5571CA71BF34398815C8200@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A5DC485.2030407@mts.net>

Thank you Catherine
I was hoping it would not turn off people, when i write the way I did 
about my wife. The chances are that Mary is fortunate that her husband 
has been led to Jewish teaching. And to be honest I do wonder how many 
husbands would have put up with what I even have to put up with today. 
But I have an Emuna Outreach  fridge magnet that says,  "Good Morning! 
This is Hashem. I will be handling all your problems today. I will not 
need your help. So, relax and have a great day."  In order for me, a 
piece of clay to be fashioned to the use of the masters hand. This is 
what it took for me. So I am very content with His provision. I have 
nothing to complain except where I fail to heed the gentle promptings of 
my master.

Cornie

 


Catherine Cashmore wrote:
> I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Your experience is a humbling one to read and contains elements that point towards profound depth.  You are a blessing to us all. THANK YOU!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the best of MSN on your mobile
> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/_______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09 05:56:00
>
>   

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 07:38:51 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:38:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <865D6298743E47EB8C65EF588D7A7EB8@dickLPC>
References: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<865D6298743E47EB8C65EF588D7A7EB8@dickLPC>
Message-ID: <855590370907150538m6ee6ebd3pcd2d1508c4fb6041@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Dick -

    Much appreciated!  :-)
             *Hanoch
*
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:

>      Just read of your Birthday Hanoch. May U have many Healthy & Happy
> one's for a long time.  Dick L
>
>
>
>
>>   Happy Birthday Hanoch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
>> To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM
>>
>> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09
> 05:56:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 15 12:27:49 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:27:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <855590370907150538m6ee6ebd3pcd2d1508c4fb6041@mail.gmail.com>
References: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com><865D6298743E47EB8C65EF588D7A7EB8@dickLPC>
	<855590370907150538m6ee6ebd3pcd2d1508c4fb6041@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1659EC11691AAD329DF84FBA200@phx.gbl>

Am home for a few hours, and checking mail.  

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, HANOCH (sorry I'm late, but this way it lasts a lot longer!!!!).

NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM!

Love,

Avigail


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday


Thanks Dick - 

    Much appreciated!  :-)
             Hanoch


On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:

      Just read of your Birthday Hanoch. May U have many Healthy & Happy one's for a long time.  Dick L

     
            Happy Birthday Hanoch



                 
                 



            --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


              From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
              Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
              To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
              Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM


              Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!

              Sent from my iPhone
              _______________________________________________
           


      _______________________________________________






----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------------



    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
    Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09 05:56:00






  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 14:10:08 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:10:08 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS1659EC11691AAD329DF84FBA200@phx.gbl>
References: <626984.35823.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<855590370907131239y5f3ea52fl85595b639b0260d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<865D6298743E47EB8C65EF588D7A7EB8@dickLPC>
	<855590370907150538m6ee6ebd3pcd2d1508c4fb6041@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS1659EC11691AAD329DF84FBA200@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <855590370907151210h16f786e4t925c3208f96c340a@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Pat!  Much appreciated :-)

          *  Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Am home for a few hours, and checking mail.
>
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY, HANOCH (sorry I'm late, but this way it lasts a lot
> longer!!!!).
>
> NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM!
>
> Love,
>
> Avigail
>
>  *From:* Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:38 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
>
> Thanks Dick -
>
>     Much appreciated!  :-)
>              *Hanoch
> *
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>      Just read of your Birthday Hanoch. May U have many Healthy & Happy
>> one's for a long time.  Dick L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>   Happy Birthday Hanoch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
>>> Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Birthday
>>> To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 8:34 PM
>>>
>>> Today is Hanoch's birthday everyone. Happy birthday Hanoch!
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09
>> 05:56:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Wed Jul 15 19:31:33 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:31:33 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <c48.3bc7c2d2.378fcee5@aol.com>

 
Hi  Ross and everyone. 
Ok  these are only my thoughts and there?s not a lot of out and out 
biblical  research/proofs included here as in this instance I just want to share my 
 thoughts on the Jonah story and what it says to me ? please accept that I 
got  here by doing a little study on it and will be more than willing to do 
some more  detailed study and proofs ? but first off I want to share what it 
says to me and  means to me. As ever please feel free to disagree and tell 
me I?m wrong, call me  on it and question me ? I am accepting of this as 
these are my thoughts and they  are just as likely to be wrong as right, so I 
seek to learn and be open to  teaching :o) 
Jonah  is way more than the story of the whale (big fish) that everyone and 
his  neighbour thinks they know - in fact the fish thing is to my way of 
thinking  almost a red herring (sorry could not resist that pun!) to the most 
important  part of the story - and that part like any really good story is 
at the end. The  rest of the book is the big lead up to the end and most 
everyone overlooks that  part it seems to me - that is not to say that the rest 
of the story is not  important, it is - very much so, but the meat of the 
story is in the final part  for me. 
So  the whole story talks. 
The  idea of running from HaShems call is massive, failing to listen to his 
word and  even turning our back on him and running as far as we can. Yet 
without success  because who can outrun HaShem, creator of heaven and earth, 
lord of sea and land  and all that dwells upon it! None of us can of course 
but I think that pretty  much we probably all try, we all want to live our 
own lives without heed to him  if we can. We all want to do what we want to do 
despite the fact we know other  and better. 
But  then there is repentence in the story ? Jonah acknowledges his wrong 
and makes  reparation by telling them to cast him overboard, he offers 
himself as the  sacrifice to save them. He redeems himself and chooses for himself 
the right  path ? and this is an important bit that yet again gets 
overlooked more often  than not. 
Yes  he had sinned, but he repented and offered sacrifice before he hit the 
belly of  the whale/fish ? and you know what, the sailors recognised this. 
They were good  people, They tried to save him, they did not want his blood 
on their hands ?  even though in many ways he had brought this terrible woe 
to them, they did not  treat him with evil or hatred or as an enemy but 
instead tried to save him. Only  when it was absolutely clear that there was 
absolutely no alternative other than  absolute death for all ? that they tossed 
him in, begging for Mercy as they did  it. 
A  stunning lesson here that before violence and bloodshed we try 
everything else  we can think of ? we work at all cost to save life, bloodshed being 
the very  final solution.  
And  the other stunning lesson here ? that even the ones who reject HaShem 
can repent  and can be used to bring about his purpose and can act as a 
lesson and call to  others to find HaShem! 
The  poem/prayer of Jonah in the belly of the fish!! ( a reflection of the 
whole  stream of psalms and echoes many of the psalmists phrases) is not 
just one of  repentence and remorse but it is above all one of praise and 
thanksgiving. How  often this element is overlooked in general. At the seeming 
very darkest and  most horrible time of his life Jonah gives thanks. 
Ch2.  8 ?yet hast Thou brought up my life from the pit, O HaShem my G-d. 
When my soul fainted within me, I  remembered HaShem; and my prayer came in 
unto Thee, into Thy holy temple. 
9.  They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 
10.  But I will sacrifice unto Thee with the voice of thanksgiving; that 
which I have  vowed I will pay. Salvation is of HaShem. ? 
I  love that in chapter 3 it starts with the reminder that we get second 
chances!  And the dichotomy between Jonah?s rejection of HaShem, he who was a 
Hebrew, a  follower and believer, against the wickedly sinful and 
notoriously hard hearted  people of Ninevah (Assyrians) just accepting HaShem almost 
without question, is  delightful. 
Their  trust in HaShem is great because they did not know him and therefore 
did not  know that he might well be forgiving and save them, oh that and of 
course they  knew full well and good that they were totally guilty and more 
than worthy of  his punishment and with little to make them otherwise 
worthy of  forgiveness. 
Chap.  3 :_9_ (http://www.hareidi.org/ref/Jonah3.htm#9)    
Who  knoweth whether G-d will not turn and repent, and turn away from His 
fierce  anger, that we perish not?'  
A  strong and fitting reminder that ?Salvation is of HaShem?. HaShem alone 
can make  the choice of life and death, forgiveness and mercy, and you know 
what ? we have  no say in that! None at all. Something Jonah in chapter 4 
shows he misses the  point of.  
Jonah  is truly a hard hearted person for he has the audacity to get angry 
because  HaShem chooses to save and forgive and who is he that has the right 
to judge  like this given what we know of him?? 
This  for me is where the story starts and where we miss the point most 
often. This is  the important bit of the story for this is the truth of us so 
often ? hard  hearted and mean minded and daring to think we should have some 
say or right to  judge our fellow man when HaShem has chosen to forgive us 
for that we would  judge them for. What makes us think we are better than 
them? That for some  reason we are more deserving of HaShems mercy than they 
are? (this by the way is  why it talks so much to me, because I am a hard 
hearted person who knows so much  better than to judge and yet does time and 
again ? I come back time and again to  here in the hopes of remembering this 
lesson!) 
And  the way HaShem teaches is an object lesson ? he gives shelter and then 
takes  away the shelter, he gives a little protection demonstrating in that 
not only  how much protection is needed but how easy it is to loose it, at 
his whim, and  then points out that the protection given was not earned or 
deserved except for  the gifting of HaShem and that there was nothing Jonah 
could do about it and yet  he had loved that plant that offered protection, 
felt a bond to it for its  protection and even felt violently angered against 
the worm that destroyed that  protection - and yet what right had he to the 
protection or to feel so  protective and possessive of that protection/ 
that plant? No right at all.   
At  this point my mind goes back to  
2:9.  ?They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy?. (Often 
interpreted as  worship worthless idols) 
Because  in his own way Jonah is guilty of this, in some ways he made the 
plant an idol  and in other ways he made the punishment factor a worthless 
idol ? idols are not  just statues we worship but anything we put before and 
above  HaShem. 
And  then HaShem ends it by pointing out: 
Chapter  4:11 and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city, 
wherein are more than  sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between 
their right hand and their  left hand, and also much cattle?'  
It  is HaShems right to forgive where he will for all are his, and better 
yet there  are innocents in Ninevah, many many innocents and should they be 
punished along  with the guilty? 
The  unsaid being of course because if HaShem truly judged according to 
guilt Jonah  would be in deep trouble ? especially right then with such 
hardness of  heart. 
This  is the point of the story ? Salvation is of HaShem and we are a hard 
hearted  people even though we claim to be his and this is why this story 
talks to me so  loudly, because we cannot seem to get past the hardness and 
hatred and anger in  our hearts, despite everything we should know and every 
lesson given we still  are hard of heart and unforgiving and rejecting of our 
call and HaShem. Thinking  we have a right to judge when in fact that right 
belongs solely to  HaShem. 
And  constantly this is me! I am hard hearted and I need to learn these 
lessons  regularly. This story talks to me daily but it talks to the entire 
situation of  now as well I think. 
Ok  that?s the thoughts, feel free to add, dismantle and help educate this 
foolish  hard headed and hard hearted person. 
Best 
Melanie 
Ps  Here?s a sort of story I wrote back in 1997 around the end of this 
theme (sort  of) and its about the forgetfulness of Jonah, the way it is easy to 
lose sight  of the reality of a situation and HaShem?s ways. See I told you 
Jonah spoke  reams to me ? I just didn?t say it made any sense or was any 
good :0) 
LEAVING  HOME. 
Jonah  didn?t want to go, he didn?t really want t leave home and go 
somewhere else. He  really had had enough of going to the badlands, couldn?t G-d 
just for once  find someone else, I mean surely with so many people in the 
world there had to  be one other person who was suited to the job of bible 
bashing and prophecy  giving, possibly he was sure someone even better equipped 
and who had a yearning  in their hearts to go somewhere exotic and 
dangerous. Surely just one other  person huh G-D? 
Jonah  really didn?t want to go, he hated leaving home and after all 
Ninevah was such a  nice city and he had so many friends and people to visit here, 
so Jonah did not  want to go (have I stressed this point too much do you 
think? that Jonah really  did not what to do, didn?t want to leave his nice 
comfy home at Ninevah? Well if  you think so then all I can say is it isn?t 
half as stressed as Jonah was at the  thought of having to go!). 
Jonah  sat on the rock that was outside the walls of Ninevah and stared out 
to the sea,  in the far distance he saw a large fish, possibly even a whale 
surface and  watched the plumes from its blowhole. Lovely creatures, full 
of grace and  majesty and an awful lot of fish entrails and plankton but then 
if you?ve never  seen the belly of a big whale like fish then he supposed 
you wouldn?t know  that. 
Jonah  sighed and his shoulders rounded even more, even the sight of the 
whale fish  didn?t cheer him as it usually did. 
?I  don?t want to go you know, I work hard here where I am and its not an 
easy job,  not just paperwork and teambuilding skills you know, it?s a lot 
of physical  effort reminding people what they think they don?t need to know 
and if I leave  then whose going to mend the fences and repair the drifting 
hearts, whose going  to make sure that they don?t overlook you in the day to 
day life? Have you  thought of that?? 
Just  then a boat sailed into sight and in bold letters on the side was its 
name and  part registration: 
Jonahs  Ride ?UR2G0 ? Joppa. 
Jonah  sighed and looked up to the sky. 
?I  really don?t want to go (see I told you I couldn?t stress it as much 
as it  stressed Jonah), what if at the end of the journey I?m wrong and it 
wasn?t you  calling me to catch a ride to Tarshish? What if it?s a trick? I 
mean they may  not want me there, they probably wont like me or what I have 
to say and I?ve  heard that they?re not very g-dly or very friendly really, 
not like the people  here in Ninevah, not at all welcoming. And who?ll look 
after me ? I mean I?m not  as young as I once was and I get quite lonely on 
some days, sometimes even here  its like there?s no-one to talk to so what 
will it be like there? and how can I  know that it?s the right thing? How 
can I know this what you  want?? 
Jonah  got off his rock and wandered over to the town wall and started 
looking at all  the graffiti carved on it, people just didn?t care what they did 
or ruined, I  mean look at it ?Gath-hither Kid ? Go Hither? and I mean ?I 
AM, You Will!? who  writes these things? What kind of sense did that make. 
?I  mean how do I know if its right to go, I mean if its really what you 
want can't  you give me a sign or something, I mean this vague feeling is 
probably just  barometric pressure or something and surely the fact that I don?t 
want to go  probably means it isn?t you calling doesn?t it? I mean look at 
the time I though  you were calling me to wherever it was now and I ended 
up in the belly of a  whale fish because all along it was Ninevah you wanted 
me to go to and I kept  hearing whatsitsname instead, I mean what if its 
like that again? and the thing  is what if when I get there they won't listen 
to me  or even worse what if they do and then  I?ll have gone all that way 
for nothing really. It?s not even as if I?ve ever really wanted  to go to 
Tarshish. I still don?t want to go!? 
Jonah  sighed and went in through the east gate, just inside the city wall 
he stopped  and turned to look out at where he had just been, his mind 
already half full  with the beginning of a sermon, a prophecy and a speech but as 
he looked out to  the sea and the whale fish and the passing sea ships full 
of trade his eye was  caught by the rock he liked to sit on and dimly in 
the back of his mind he seems  to have some sort of recollection of a vine 
like plant that used to the there  and he wondered, in that abstract way you do 
when full of other thoughts and  worries, what had happened to it. 
The  thing is we only remember what we want to but G-D remembers it all, 
not just a  tiny tale of maybe but a full story of ever after. 
?MJCarroll  1997
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 20:03:29 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:03:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907151803i34e0c488n561dd2f7c78d4609@mail.gmail.com>

Catherine and all,
I agree 100% with your words, Catherine.  Living Torah encompasses
everything in our lives.  Many of us do not live near anyone else who is
Torah oriented.  Yes, we need to be a light to others by living Torah, but
we also need the support of others that are already of that mindset.  In the
past I have had things to share that no one else would understand save the
people on this list.  I have also been lifted up in prayer by this group on
more than one occasion.  Baruch HaShem for this list!  Yes, we do need more
"meaty" dialogue, but I feel we also need the personal interaction,
especially in regard to prayer.  There are many on this list who never post,
but they read and they pray.  I would hate to loose that.

The number of emails can certainly be overwhelming.  My answer has been to
set up this gmail account and use it online only...not have it downloaded to
Outlook.  I also have a filter for the dialogue.  All dialogue mail goes
into its own folder for viewing at my leisure.  If I don't want to receive
emails on certain subjects or from certain people, I can simply set a filter
and have them deleted on receipt.

With love and respect to all,

Kim

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:24 AM, Catherine Cashmore
<chcashmore at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  I understand your thoughts Ross, however I find the topics on this list
> endlessly interesting and incredibly useful to my own studies.  I sense a
> continual flowing dialogue that has no limitations and yet is bound together
> in Love for HaShem.  I trust that He has bought us together to share our
> thoughts - in all capacities and I truly believe we do that each day.  I
> think for all of us here, the people we correspond to on this list are of
> major importance to our every day lives.  I know they are to mine.  I was
> reading my Chumash tonight and a little of the commentary which expresses
> how the Torah is not just restricted to one area of our life, but covers all
> areas of our lives and our very existence - political, scriptural,
> spiritual, physical etc. No limitations  Therefore lets focus on all aspects
> of dialoguel  The great biblical subjects, our personal stories and needs,
> our political frustrations, and above all our love for one another and need
> for Torah.  Let's celebrate that we have such a wonderful opportunity to
> be united as Israel will one day be united under the truth and glory of
> HaShem.
> I can only thank you Ross for letting us have and helping create such a
> wonderful outlet in our lives!
>
> ------------------------------
> View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place ? Learn more!<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 20:05:25 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:05:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie. Yo...
In-Reply-To: <4A5DC485.2030407@mts.net>
References: <SNT108-W13B5571CA71BF34398815C8200@phx.gbl>
	<4A5DC485.2030407@mts.net>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907151805m6c1d593dp779eb06c9776488f@mail.gmail.com>

Cornie,
Thank you for sharing your diary with us.  I think your conclusions are
right on!  Mary is indeed fortunate to have you.

Love to you and yours,

Kim

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:59 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

>  Thank you Catherine
> I was hoping it would not turn off people, when i write the way I did about
> my wife. The chances are that Mary is fortunate that her husband has been
> led to Jewish teaching. And to be honest I do wonder how many husbands would
> have put up with what I even have to put up with today. But I have an Emuna
> Outreach  fridge magnet that says,  "Good Morning! This is Hashem. I will be
> handling all your problems today. I will not need your help. So, relax and
> have a great day."  In order for me, a piece of clay to be fashioned to the
> use of the masters hand. This is what it took for me. So I am very content
> with His provision. I have nothing to complain except where I fail to heed
> the gentle promptings of my master.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
>
> Catherine Cashmore wrote:
>
> I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Your experience is a humbling one to read and contains elements that point towards profound depth.  You are a blessing to us all. THANK YOU!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the best of MSN on your mobilehttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/_______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09 05:56:00
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>
>
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Wed Jul 15 20:15:57 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:15:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
References: <c48.3bc7c2d2.378fcee5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEEB5FF3EE224F23807F6DAC2814B226@davesbook>




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_Shalom,
Maybe someone should start a SWW dialogue list for birthdays and prayer request and sharing depressions and back patting.  I believe this is more the idea behind SWW.  Or maybe just start another bible based list and let the ROF continue in its social function.  
 
Also, many of these things (ie. birthdays and "you are so wonderful" post) would certainly be more appropriate for private email than on a dialogue.

I would certainly like to see something with more meat and also with some original thought.  All of the postings of the thoughts and opinions of Rabbis and A7 news articles is one thing, but let's have more of the scholarly pursuits of the list.  A great step toward loving your neighbor is to share with him/her what you are seeing in your studies. If your studies consist of reading articles on the net then it is time to turn off the computer and open the books.
 
I would like to start by challenging my students that are a part of this list to start posting some substantial thoughts.  Set the standard and raise the bar.
 
 
Web Hulon
______________________________________________
Great post Melanie.....(read that as a pat on the back, which I know you don't need).  

One of the best things about the book of Jonah is that it is a short read.  After reading this book the question asked of Jonah by God in verses 4:4 and 4:9...."Do you do well to be angry?"  or as the Jewish version that I read (on the internet) The Good is what you are angry about?

All of us at times are unhappy with our circumstances.........and this seems to be the case with Jonah.   Fortuonly our creator is concerned with those of us that at times don't "know our right hand from the left".....along with the livestock!   May we through this dialogue list become more single minded and regain our mental facilities in dealing with "the path" we all pursue. (my prayer)   

Does this mean we shouldn't celebrate ones birthday or count the days before one of us moves permanently (after a lifetime of desire) to "the Land"?   How about if one of us is depressed and just needs to write it on a text file and send it to "the list".....What's more important.....to have theological discussions or humane social contact, even if its only electronic and not face to face.  I say BOTH....with out one the other is of no use!  

I definitely would love to see more insight by some of the more scholarly among us...........With some of the insights of those in the trenches!


Or is it easer to be eaten by a big fish?
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MELA91E at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks


  Hi Ross and everyone.

   

  Ok these are only my thoughts ................(see prior post)
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 15 20:58:20 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <119920.45503.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>





ever the pragmatist, Dave!
?
?
Or is it easer to be eaten by a big fish?
dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: MELA91E at aol.com 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks



Hi Ross and everyone.
?
Ok these are only my thoughts ................(see prior post)
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 15 21:42:30 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907151803i34e0c488n561dd2f7c78d4609@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <930731.2971.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Just a little chuckle. Does anyone see a little, Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus in this thread?
?
Susie

--- On Wed, 7/15/09, kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com> wrote:


From: kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Our list
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:03 PM


Catherine and all,


I agree 100% with your words, Catherine. ?Living Torah encompasses everything in our lives. ?Many of us do not live near anyone else who is Torah oriented. ?Yes, we need to be a light to others by living Torah, but we also need the support of others that are already of that mindset. ?In the past I have had things to share that no one else would understand save the people on this list. ?I have also been lifted up in prayer by this group on more than one occasion. ?Baruch HaShem for this list! ?Yes, we do need more "meaty" dialogue, but I feel we also need the personal interaction, especially in regard to prayer. ?There are many on this list who never post, but they read and they pray. ?I would hate to loose that.


The number of emails can certainly be overwhelming. ?My answer has been to set up this gmail account and use it online only...not have it downloaded to Outlook. ?I also have a filter for the dialogue. ?All dialogue mail goes into its own folder for viewing at my leisure. ?If I don't want to receive emails on certain subjects or from certain people, I can simply set a filter and have them deleted on receipt. ?


With love and respect to all,


Kim



On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:24 AM, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


I understand your thoughts Ross, however I find the topics on this list endlessly interesting and?incredibly?useful to my own studies. ?I sense a continual flowing dialogue that has no limitations and yet is bound together in Love for HaShem. ?I trust that He has bought us together to share our thoughts - in all capacities and I?truly?believe we do that each day. ?I think for all of us here, the people we?correspond?to on this list are of major importance to our every day lives. ?I know they are to mine. ?I was reading my Chumash tonight and a little of the?commentary?which expresses how the Torah is not just restricted to one area of our life, but?covers?all areas of our lives and our very?existence?-?political,?scriptural, spiritual, physical etc. No limitations ?Therefore lets focus on all aspects of dialoguel ?The great biblical subjects, our personal stories and needs, our?political?frustrations, and above all our love for one
 another and need for Torah. ?Let's celebrate that we have such a wonderful opportunity to be?united?as Israel will one day be united under the truth and glory of HaShem.


I can only thank you Ross for letting us have and helping create such a wonderful outlet in our lives!


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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 22:24:46 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:24:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
In-Reply-To: <c48.3bc7c2d2.378fcee5@aol.com>
References: <c48.3bc7c2d2.378fcee5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907152024j750036dat1c768fe099b8fe37@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Melanie, I just love what you wrote.  I envy your talent with the pen. :)

Jonah is speaks to me very personally as well.  I attempted to run from
HaShem at one point in my life.  I did a 180 degree turn in the wrong
direction.  I even knew the things I was doing were wrong, but I pushed
these things away.  I thank HaShem every day that he did not give up on me
even when I gave up on myself and on Him.  In his abundant love and
compassion, he continued speaking to my heart until I was ready to listen.

Rereading Jonah has also brought me to the realization that I have been
very judgmental.  I've arrogantly refrained from talking to people about
HaShem and His Torah, judging them, in assuming that they would not be
interested.  I now realize that I should not pick and choose to whom
Hashem's light should be shone.  How soon I forgot where I've been and how
far I've come!

I think one of our biggest idols is self.  We need to not rely on our own
understanding, only on HaShem's.  In His wisdom, He will choose whom He will
choose.  His plan for mankind will prevail with or without me.  If I don't
follow His path, then He will simply choose someone else to do His work.
 Had Jonah not gone to Ninevah, He would have sent someone else for He knew
that they would repent.  This is the biggest lesson that I have learned from
Jonah...only HaShem knows the hearts of men.

In Melanie's words, these are only my thoughts, please feel free to
disagree.

Shalom,
Kim

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:31 PM, <MELA91E at aol.com> wrote:

>  Hi Ross and everyone.
>
>
>
> Ok these are only my thoughts and there?s not a lot of out and out biblical
> research/proofs included here as in this instance I just want to share my
> thoughts on the Jonah story and what it says to me ? please accept that I
> got here by doing a little study on it and will be more than willing to do
> some more detailed study and proofs ? but first off I want to share what it
> says to me and means to me. As ever please feel free to disagree and tell me
> I?m wrong, call me on it and question me ? I am accepting of this as these
> are my thoughts and they are just as likely to be wrong as right, so I seek
> to learn and be open to teaching :o)
>
>
>
> Jonah is way more than the story of the whale (big fish) that everyone and
> his neighbour thinks they know - in fact the fish thing is to my way of
> thinking almost a red herring (sorry could not resist that pun!) to the most
> important part of the story - and that part like any really good story is at
> the end. The rest of the book is the big lead up to the end and most
> everyone overlooks that part it seems to me - that is not to say that the
> rest of the story is not important, it is - very much so, but the meat of
> the story is in the final part for me.
>
>
>
> So the whole story talks.
>
> The idea of running from HaShems call is massive, failing to listen to his
> word and even turning our back on him and running as far as we can. Yet
> without success because who can outrun HaShem, creator of heaven and earth,
> lord of sea and land and all that dwells upon it! None of us can of course
> but I think that pretty much we probably all try, we all want to live our
> own lives without heed to him if we can. We all want to do what we want to
> do despite the fact we know other and better.
>
>
>
> But then there is repentence in the story ? Jonah acknowledges his wrong
> and makes reparation by telling them to cast him overboard, he offers
> himself as the sacrifice to save them. He redeems himself and chooses for
> himself the right path ? and this is an important bit that yet again gets
> overlooked more often than not.
>
> Yes he had sinned, but he repented and offered sacrifice before he hit the
> belly of the whale/fish ? and you know what, the sailors recognised this.
> They were good people, They tried to save him, they did not want his blood
> on their hands ? even though in many ways he had brought this terrible woe
> to them, they did not treat him with evil or hatred or as an enemy but
> instead tried to save him. Only when it was absolutely clear that there was
> absolutely no alternative other than absolute death for all ? that they
> tossed him in, begging for Mercy as they did it.
>
> A stunning lesson here that before violence and bloodshed we try everything
> else we can think of ? we work at all cost to save life, bloodshed being the
> very final solution.
>
> And the other stunning lesson here ? that even the ones who reject HaShem
> can repent and can be used to bring about his purpose and can act as a
> lesson and call to others to find HaShem!
>
>
>
> The poem/prayer of Jonah in the belly of the fish!! ( a reflection of the
> whole stream of psalms and echoes many of the psalmists phrases) is not just
> one of repentence and remorse but it is above all one of praise and
> thanksgiving. How often this element is overlooked in general. At the
> seeming very darkest and most horrible time of his life Jonah gives thanks.
>
>
>
> Ch2. 8 ?yet hast Thou brought up my life from the pit, O HaShem my G-d.
>
>  When my soul fainted within me, I remembered HaShem; and my prayer came
> in unto Thee, into Thy holy temple.
>
> 9. They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
>
> 10. But I will sacrifice unto Thee with the voice of thanksgiving; that
> which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is of HaShem. ?
>
>
>
> I love that in chapter 3 it starts with the reminder that we get second
> chances! And the dichotomy between Jonah?s rejection of HaShem, he who was a
> Hebrew, a follower and believer, against the wickedly sinful and notoriously
> hard hearted people of Ninevah (Assyrians) just accepting HaShem almost
> without question, is delightful.
>
> Their trust in HaShem is great because they did not know him and therefore
> did not know that he might well be forgiving and save them, oh that and of
> course they knew full well and good that they were totally guilty and more
> than worthy of his punishment and with little to make them otherwise worthy
> of forgiveness.
>
>
>
> Chap. 3 :9 <http://www.hareidi.org/ref/Jonah3.htm#9>
>
> Who knoweth whether G-d will not turn and repent, and turn away from His
> fierce anger, that we perish not?'
>
>
>
> A strong and fitting reminder that ?Salvation is of HaShem?. HaShem alone
> can make the choice of life and death, forgiveness and mercy, and you know
> what ? we have no say in that! None at all. Something Jonah in chapter 4
> shows he misses the point of.
>
>
>
> Jonah is truly a hard hearted person for he has the audacity to get angry
> because HaShem chooses to save and forgive and who is he that has the right
> to judge like this given what we know of him??
>
> This for me is where the story starts and where we miss the point most
> often. This is the important bit of the story for this is the truth of us so
> often ? hard hearted and mean minded and daring to think we should have some
> say or right to judge our fellow man when HaShem has chosen to forgive us
> for that we would judge them for. What makes us think we are better than
> them? That for some reason we are more deserving of HaShems mercy than they
> are? (this by the way is why it talks so much to me, because I am a hard
> hearted person who knows so much better than to judge and yet does time and
> again ? I come back time and again to here in the hopes of remembering this
> lesson!)
>
>
>
> And the way HaShem teaches is an object lesson ? he gives shelter and then
> takes away the shelter, he gives a little protection demonstrating in that
> not only how much protection is needed but how easy it is to loose it, at
> his whim, and then points out that the protection given was not earned or
> deserved except for the gifting of HaShem and that there was nothing Jonah
> could do about it and yet he had loved that plant that offered protection,
> felt a bond to it for its protection and even felt violently angered against
> the worm that destroyed that protection - and yet what right had he to the
> protection or to feel so protective and possessive of that protection/ that
> plant? No right at all.
>
> At this point my mind goes back to
>
>
>
> 2:9. ?They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy?. (Often
> interpreted as worship worthless idols)
>
>
>
> Because in his own way Jonah is guilty of this, in some ways he made the
> plant an idol and in other ways he made the punishment factor a worthless
> idol ? idols are not just statues we worship but anything we put before and
> above HaShem.
>
>
>
> And then HaShem ends it by pointing out:
>
>
>
> Chapter 4:11 and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city,
> wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between
> their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?'
>
>
>
> It is HaShems right to forgive where he will for all are his, and better
> yet there are innocents in Ninevah, many many innocents and should they be
> punished along with the guilty?
>
> The unsaid being of course because if HaShem truly judged according to
> guilt Jonah would be in deep trouble ? especially right then with such
> hardness of heart.
>
>
>
> This is the point of the story ? Salvation is of HaShem and we are a hard
> hearted people even though we claim to be his and this is why this story
> talks to me so loudly, because we cannot seem to get past the hardness and
> hatred and anger in our hearts, despite everything we should know and every
> lesson given we still are hard of heart and unforgiving and rejecting of our
> call and HaShem. Thinking we have a right to judge when in fact that right
> belongs solely to HaShem.
>
> And constantly this is me! I am hard hearted and I need to learn these
> lessons regularly. This story talks to me daily but it talks to the entire
> situation of now as well I think.
>
>
>
> Ok that?s the thoughts, feel free to add, dismantle and help educate this
> foolish hard headed and hard hearted person.
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
> Melanie
>
> Ps Here?s a sort of story I wrote back in 1997 around the end of this theme
> (sort of) and its about the forgetfulness of Jonah, the way it is easy to
> lose sight of the reality of a situation and HaShem?s ways. See I told you
> Jonah spoke reams to me ? I just didn?t say it made any sense or was any
> good *:0)*
>
>
>
> LEAVING HOME.
>
> Jonah didn?t want to go, he didn?t really want t leave home and go
> somewhere else. He really had had enough of going to the badlands,
> couldn?t G-d just for once find someone else, I mean surely with so many
> people in the world there had to be one other person who was suited to the
> job of bible bashing and prophecy giving, possibly he was sure someone even
> better equipped and who had a yearning in their hearts to go somewhere
> exotic and dangerous. Surely just one other person huh G-D?
>
> Jonah really didn?t want to go, he hated leaving home and after all Ninevah
> was such a nice city and he had so many friends and people to visit here, so
> Jonah did not want to go (have I stressed this point too much do you think?
> that Jonah really did not what to do, didn?t want to leave his nice comfy
> home at Ninevah? Well if you think so then all I can say is it isn?t half as
> stressed as Jonah was at the thought of having to go!).
>
> Jonah sat on the rock that was outside the walls of Ninevah and stared out
> to the sea, in the far distance he saw a large fish, possibly even a whale
> surface and watched the plumes from its blowhole. Lovely creatures, full of
> grace and majesty and an awful lot of fish entrails and plankton but then if
> you?ve never seen the belly of a big whale like fish then he supposed you
> wouldn?t know that.
>
> Jonah sighed and his shoulders rounded even more, even the sight of the
> whale fish didn?t cheer him as it usually did.
>
> ?I don?t want to go you know, I work hard here where I am and its not an
> easy job, not just paperwork and teambuilding skills you know, it?s a lot of
> physical effort reminding people what they think they don?t need to know and
> if I leave then whose going to mend the fences and repair the drifting
> hearts, whose going to make sure that they don?t overlook you in the day to
> day life? Have you thought of that??
>
> Just then a boat sailed into sight and in bold letters on the side was its
> name and part registration:
>
> Jonahs Ride ?UR2G0 ? Joppa.
>
> Jonah sighed and looked up to the sky.
>
> ?I really don?t want to go (see I told you I couldn?t stress it as much as
> it stressed Jonah), what if at the end of the journey I?m wrong and it
> wasn?t you calling me to catch a ride to Tarshish? What if it?s a trick? I
> mean they may not want me there, they probably wont like me or what I have
> to say and I?ve heard that they?re not very g-dly or very friendly really,
> not like the people here in Ninevah, not at all welcoming. And who?ll look
> after me ? I mean I?m not as young as I once was and I get quite lonely on
> some days, sometimes even here its like there?s no-one to talk to so what
> will it be like there? and how can I know that it?s the right thing? How can
> I know this what you want??
>
> Jonah got off his rock and wandered over to the town wall and started
> looking at all the graffiti carved on it, people just didn?t care what they
> did or ruined, I mean look at it ?Gath-hither Kid ? Go Hither? and I mean ?I
> AM, You Will!? who writes these things? What kind of sense did that make.
>
> ?I mean how do I know if its right to go, I mean if its really what you
> want can't you give me a sign or something, I mean this vague feeling is
> probably just barometric pressure or something and surely the fact that I
> don?t want to go probably means it isn?t you calling doesn?t it? I mean look
> at the time I though you were calling me to wherever it was now and I ended
> up in the belly of a whale fish because all along it was Ninevah you wanted
> me to go to and I kept hearing whatsitsname instead, I mean what if its like
> that again? and the thing is what if when I get there they won't listen to
> me  or even worse what if they do and then I?ll have gone all that way for
> nothing really. It?s not even as if I?ve ever really wanted to go to
> Tarshish. I still don?t want to go!?
>
> Jonah sighed and went in through the east gate, just inside the city wall
> he stopped and turned to look out at where he had just been, his mind
> already half full with the beginning of a sermon, a prophecy and a speech
> but as he looked out to the sea and the whale fish and the passing sea ships
> full of trade his eye was caught by the rock he liked to sit on and dimly in
> the back of his mind he seems to have some sort of recollection of a vine
> like plant that used to the there and he wondered, in that abstract way you
> do when full of other thoughts and worries, what had happened to it.
>
> The thing is we only remember what we want to but G-D remembers it all, not
> just a tiny tale of maybe but a full story of ever after.
>
> ?MJCarroll 1997
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Jul 15 22:25:46 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:25:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907151803i34e0c488n561dd2f7c78d4609@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT108-W33696B09EEFFFD2334C0BEC8200@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907151803i34e0c488n561dd2f7c78d4609@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58ED56857EAD4B65A7BF06AF681279C1@bettylaptop>

Kim and all,

 

Thanks for your response.  I was just about to respond with my thoughts, but
they have already been expressed quite well by you and by Catherine.  We
definitely do need more "meaty" dialogue, and it looks like we have
something started with the posts on Jonah, which hopefully will be a
beneficial study. Thanks Ross and Melanie!  And also, Dave and Glenn, thanks
for your sharp wit and humor thrown in.

 

But let's not focus on the "meaty" dialogue so much that we sacrifice the
heart.  My feelings are that we need the personal aspects as well on this
list.  

 

I echo your words of thanks to Ross, Catherine." I can only thank you Ross
for letting us have and helping create such a wonderful outlet in our lives!

 

Love and shalom to all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Our list

 

Catherine and all,

 

I agree 100% with your words, Catherine.  Living Torah encompasses
everything in our lives.  Many of us do not live near anyone else who is
Torah oriented.  Yes, we need to be a light to others by living Torah, but
we also need the support of others that are already of that mindset.  In the
past I have had things to share that no one else would understand save the
people on this list.  I have also been lifted up in prayer by this group on
more than one occasion.  Baruch HaShem for this list!  Yes, we do need more
"meaty" dialogue, but I feel we also need the personal interaction,
especially in regard to prayer.  There are many on this list who never post,
but they read and they pray.  I would hate to loose that.

 

The number of emails can certainly be overwhelming.  My answer has been to
set up this gmail account and use it online only...not have it downloaded to
Outlook.  I also have a filter for the dialogue.  All dialogue mail goes
into its own folder for viewing at my leisure.  If I don't want to receive
emails on certain subjects or from certain people, I can simply set a filter
and have them deleted on receipt.  

 

With love and respect to all,

 

Kim

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:24 AM, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
wrote:

I understand your thoughts Ross, however I find the topics on this list
endlessly interesting and incredibly useful to my own studies.  I sense a
continual flowing dialogue that has no limitations and yet is bound together
in Love for HaShem.  I trust that He has bought us together to share our
thoughts - in all capacities and I truly believe we do that each day.  I
think for all of us here, the people we correspond to on this list are of
major importance to our every day lives.  I know they are to mine.  I was
reading my Chumash tonight and a little of the commentary which expresses
how the Torah is not just restricted to one area of our life, but covers all
areas of our lives and our very existence - political, scriptural,
spiritual, physical etc. No limitations  Therefore lets focus on all aspects
of dialoguel  The great biblical subjects, our personal stories and needs,
our political frustrations, and above all our love for one another and need
for Torah.  Let's celebrate that we have such a wonderful opportunity to be
united as Israel will one day be united under the truth and glory of HaShem.

 

I can only thank you Ross for letting us have and helping create such a
wonderful outlet in our lives!

 

  _____  

View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn
<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/>  more!


_______________________________________________

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Jul 15 22:29:13 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:29:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie. Yo...
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907151805m6c1d593dp779eb06c9776488f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT108-W13B5571CA71BF34398815C8200@phx.gbl>
	<4A5DC485.2030407@mts.net>
	<1c8dbb6e0907151805m6c1d593dp779eb06c9776488f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1CBB6E72D8B34E3FB240BFDB5D1490D1@bettylaptop>

Yes, Cornie, thanks for sharing with us.  Mary has no idea what a gem she
has in you!

 

May you be blessed with Shalom Baiyet (peace in the home),

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie. Yo...

 

Cornie,

 

Thank you for sharing your diary with us.  I think your conclusions are
right on!  Mary is indeed fortunate to have you.

 

Love to you and yours,

 

Kim

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:59 AM, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:

Thank you Catherine
I was hoping it would not turn off people, when i write the way I did about
my wife. The chances are that Mary is fortunate that her husband has been
led to Jewish teaching. And to be honest I do wonder how many husbands would
have put up with what I even have to put up with today. But I have an Emuna
Outreach  fridge magnet that says,  "Good Morning! This is Hashem. I will be
handling all your problems today. I will not need your help. So, relax and
have a great day."  In order for me, a piece of clay to be fashioned to the
use of the masters hand. This is what it took for me. So I am very content
with His provision. I have nothing to complain except where I fail to heed
the gentle promptings of my master.

Cornie

 


Catherine Cashmore wrote: 

I found your thoughts very interesting Cornie.  Your experience is a
humbling one to read and contains elements that point towards profound
depth.  You are a blessing to us all. THANK YOU!
 
_________________________________________________________________
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09
05:56:00
 
  

 


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From rossknichols at me.com  Wed Jul 15 23:11:34 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:11:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Roots of Faith on Twitter
Message-ID: <3BF18A6F-9822-444A-B982-71011A54D16F@me.com>

I finally took the bait and set up a Twitter account. To be honest, I  
am not really even sure what all I can do with it, but it is yet one  
more way to try and communicate with people. I must admit that I am  
drawn to any and all forms of technology and believe that I need to  
use it to my advantage in the ongoing effort to reach the world with a  
Torah message..even when the communication is brief. Twitter is one of  
the "fastest-growing phenomena on the internet" according to the New  
York Times. I plan to use it (as soon as I learn how) to send very  
brief updates; such as when I post a new audio class, or to notify  
people of something exciting in the world of Biblical studies, etc. If  
you are interested, or if you are a "twitter" already, you can sign up atwww.twitter.com/rootsoffaith 
.

Shalom! Ross

Ross K. Nichols
www.RootsofFaith.org

Sent from my iPhone
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From rossknichols at me.com  Thu Jul 16 00:16:31 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:16:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Birthdays on SWW
Message-ID: <AADCD280-7D0A-4411-B69C-AE5CF2A87F42@me.com>

I added a feature on sww to inform us when someone has a birthday.  
Check it out.

Sent from my iPhone


From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 16 05:30:52 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 10:30:52 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W656F7738805285C4D7FB98C8210@phx.gbl>


Betty, Kim - I agree with all you have said.  This list is large enough to do ALL.  We can post our love to each other, have light hearted conversations, and also delve into deeper meatier learning.  Some of the posts from Joe, John, Hanoch and others have been deep with layers of learning, meaty in content and for that reason 'food' for our Torah loving souls.  I have passed many of your posts onto my mother and father who have 'fed' on them also. They aren't really technical enough to handle all the emails on the list, but I know they are with us in spirit and also how important some of you have become to them also. HaShem encompassed all needs in his Torah.  He talks to us about our fleshly needs and our spiritual needs.  The love that shines forth on Dialogue is something I cherish everyday.  I would be upset if we tried to 'edit' the list to only includemeaty messages.  Our list encompasses all levels of learning and various differing beliefs.  Let it also encompass all types of dialogue - including plenty of meaty subjects!  


_________________________________________________________________
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 16 06:01:06 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:01:06 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <SNT108-W5813636DBC3E6D59AFB454C8210@phx.gbl>


Melanie - your post on Jonah was wonderful.  Thank you for taking the time to put down all your thoughts.  I found many of them enlightening.  You write so well - maybe it comes from reading so many books!  
By the way - how is your mother?  
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 16 06:10:59 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:10:59 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>


Please let's not try and split the list up into categories (birthdays/prayers etc.).  The more I think of this the more distressing I find it.  I love reading all the posts - light hearted and meaty.  I have much to learn, but the 'oneness' of our love is a light to my heart.  Just as the curtains of the tabernacle became one piece and encompassed the whole - uniting all the parts.  Let's do the same.  The ROF website is a wonderful tool for in depth study on different topics and how wonderful Ross is with his endless hard work in providing his weekly pod casts - but let's keep the dialogue list for all subjects 'in depth' AND 'light hearted'.  
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Jul 16 06:29:55 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:29:55 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <59D7C2EBA60841EAA7D22DFD1262BECC@TESTPC>

I agree Catherine, the big problem with Organized religion is that it got
organized.   It seems to me God always works with the grass roots because
the priest hood gets it all figured out and then figure's God mysterious
leading out of the equation.   I personally like more technical writing and
teaching, verse by verse, peel the onion and look at each little layer.
However, I realize very feel can hang in for any length of time.    Would it
not be great if we all could gather for Bible study all day, people coming
and going as they needed to and those of us who could stay the day or week.
I think this dialogue serves a purpose and the SWW serves another.   

 

It seems like the SWW has little boxes for everyone to get in, whereas here
we are more like it would be if we were all gathered in some ones living
room and as we set around and talked the discussion just flows from subject
to subject.  Everyone jumping in and out as they feel.  In my past some of
my best learning was just sitting around listening to others talk torah.
OOPS..  I'm still doing that ... reading other peoples mail. 

 

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:11 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list

 

Please let's not try and split the list up into categories
(birthdays/prayers etc.).  The more I think of this the more distressing I
find it.  I love reading all the posts - light hearted and meaty.  I have
much to learn, but the 'oneness' of our love is a light to my heart.  Just
as the curtains of the tabernacle became one piece and encompassed the whole
- uniting all the parts.  Let's do the same.  The ROF website is a wonderful
tool for in depth study on different topics and how wonderful Ross is with
his endless hard work in providing his weekly pod casts - but let's keep the
dialogue list for all subjects 'in depth' AND 'light hearted'.  

  _____  

Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find
<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/>  out more.

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 16 06:41:29 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:41:29 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W12467A3CE17409E3BA996AC8210@phx.gbl>


I couldn't have put it better Marvin!  Someone's 'living room' is a wonderful way of wording how this group feels!  i to Love the in depth study, and  the wonderful fellowship we share is a bonding spirit where we can pray, talk and learn together.  Thank you!
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 16 07:02:22 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:02:22 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A5F16CE.8080505@mts.net>

Catherine, I tend to agree with your thoughts. We seem to be such a 
diverse group of many interpretations of thoughts, and yet the e-mails 
not in every ones interest can be so easily deleted. And I don't mean to 
run them down as not good. Do we need a holyer than thou, attitude? I 
read just about everything that comes by in this group with interest, 
even though I would not agree with everything. It has done me a lot of 
good, humbling as it has been, to get to feel really at home as it is.

Cornie



Catherine Cashmore wrote:
> Please let's not try and split the list up 
> into categories (birthdays/prayers etc.).  The more I think of this 
> the more distressing I find it.  I love reading all the posts - light 
> hearted and meaty.  I have much to learn, but the 'oneness' of our 
> love is a light to my heart.  Just as the curtains of 
> the tabernacle became one piece and encompassed the whole - uniting 
> all the parts.  Let's do the same.  The ROF website is a wonderful 
> tool for in depth study on different topics and how wonderful Ross is 
> with his endless hard work in providing his weekly pod casts - but 
> let's keep the dialogue list for all subjects 'in depth' AND 'light 
> hearted'.  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find out 
> more. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.16/2240 - Release Date: 07/15/09 17:58:00
>
>   

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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 16 07:05:06 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:05:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <59D7C2EBA60841EAA7D22DFD1262BECC@TESTPC>
References: <SNT108-W1823F1E1C0E3FF02AD2F46C8210@phx.gbl>
	<59D7C2EBA60841EAA7D22DFD1262BECC@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <4A5F1772.8030107@mts.net>

Amen Marvin

Cornie



Marvin Hyde wrote:
>
> I agree Catherine, the big problem with Organized religion is that it 
> got organized.   It seems to me God always works with the grass roots 
> because the priest hood gets it all figured out and then figure's God 
> mysterious leading out of the equation.   I personally like more 
> technical writing and teaching, verse by verse, peel the onion and 
> look at each little layer. However, I realize very feel can hang in 
> for any length of time.    Would it not be great if we all could 
> gather for Bible study all day, people coming and going as they needed 
> to and those of us who could stay the day or week.    I think this 
> dialogue serves a purpose and the SWW serves another.  
>
>  
>
> It seems like the SWW has little boxes for everyone to get in, whereas 
> here we are more like it would be if we were all gathered in some ones 
> living room and as we set around and talked the discussion just flows 
> from subject to subject.  Everyone jumping in and out as they feel.  
> In my past some of my best learning was just sitting around listening 
> to others talk torah.  OOPS....  I'm still doing that ..... reading 
> other peoples mail.
>
>  
>
> marvin
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Catherine 
> Cashmore
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:11 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Our list
>
>  
>
> Please let's not try and split the list up 
> into categories (birthdays/prayers etc.).  The more I think of this 
> the more distressing I find it.  I love reading all the posts - light 
> hearted and meaty.  I have much to learn, but the 'oneness' of our 
> love is a light to my heart.  Just as the curtains of 
> the tabernacle became one piece and encompassed the whole - uniting 
> all the parts.  Let's do the same.  The ROF website is a wonderful 
> tool for in depth study on different topics and how wonderful Ross is 
> with his endless hard work in providing his weekly pod casts - but 
> let's keep the dialogue list for all subjects 'in depth' AND 'light 
> hearted'.  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find out 
> more. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.16/2240 - Release Date: 07/15/09 17:58:00
>
>   

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Jul 16 07:18:26 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:18:26 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"
In-Reply-To: <4A5401C5.9060403@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A5401C5.9060403@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1931813CF55448B9B6AAC8A4A6DB0896@TESTPC>

Joe,

 

Interesting post, studying this some, I came up with several questions.
First please clarify your comment  that the original faith or the faith that
was delivered was delivered at Sinai.  It seems your using ?faith? as a noun
for Torah.   If Abraham is the father of the faithful, surely this means he
gave birth to something?   Faith, yes!   Isaac, yes!  Man  and Mankind had a
relationship with Hashem before Moses and the children of Israel at Mt.
Sinai.  Did Hashem give some detail instruction at Sinai, Yes.   Maybe, I?m
missing the import of your statements, but I?m not of the understanding that
all mankind will become Israelite or Jewish.   If we all look alike, act
alike, practice everything alike, would that not make us all
?alike?(southern for the same)  

 

Also, your quote from Ezek. 44, shows us clearly that just as there are
different positions in the temple service, there surely must be different
positions in humanity at large.    The aliens in these passages, do you
think they are gentiles or just NOT of the tribe or Levitical priesthood and
more specifically they are not of the line of Zodak?

 

I enjoy your post.  Keep them coming as time permits.

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of
July&UniversalFreedom"]]]

 

Shalom Marvin,

boy, it took you one year to reply to this post ;-)  and I do not envy your
wife.
Thanks for jumping in.

You made some very pertinent points regarding the original faith that was
delivered.
The faith of Avraham was foundational and was an inner conversion that was
based on conviction, obedience and revelation.
However, the faith that was "delivered" was the Torah on Har Sinai.
What is interesting to note is that the original delivery was rejected by
the sin of the golden calf. This delivery ended up being smashed by Moshe
and a reworked Torah was given.

The rabbis have taught me that the original Torah or the Torah "ATZILUT "(
eminence) ie: tablets supplied by HaShem and written there upon by His
finger were replaced by the Torah "BERIAH "( remaking) ie : tablets supplied
by Moshe and written by Moshe at the dictation of HaShem (Exo 34 v27-28). 
Now the original ATZILUT is what you are all familiar with as written in Jer
7 v22- 23. 




??  ???? ???-??????????? ???-???????????, ????? ??????????, ??????? ?????
(?????????) ??????, ??????? ?????????--???-???????? ??????, ???????. 

22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I
brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or
sacrifices; 


??  ???? ???-???-???????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????, ????????
????????--?????????? ????? ?????????, ???????? ????????-??? ?????;
????????????, ??????-????????? ?????? ???????? ???????, ???????, ??????
?????. 

23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: 'Hearken unto My voice, and I
will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all the way that
I command you, that it may be well with you.' 


So why the Torah BERIAH ? Why the remaking? 
In Judaism there is the concept of "TIKKUN " or rectification. What went
wrong ? THE GOLDEN CALF !!! So the golden calf invaded areas of communal
living that needed rectification from dietary laws ( what and how they ate
at this incident ) to the laws of offerings ( what and how they sacrificed
at this incident) to the laws of morality ( sexual debauchery committed at
this incident) to the laws of the priesthood ( the first born of Yisrael
forfeited to Levi ) etc..... You get the picture.

So in a sense the Torah Atzilut was a continuation of the foundational
revelation to Avraham .
The Torah Beriah was the rectification for the breaking of the original.

So opening up a can of worms, the covenant that was made with Avraham
required a sign.


?  ??????????? ???-????????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????????
?????????--???????? ??????:  ???????? ???? ?????????, ????????????
?????????. 

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after
thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God
unto thee and to thy seed after thee. 


?  ?????????? ???? ???????????? ????????? ??? ????? ?????????, ???
????-????? ????????, ??????????, ??????; ?????????? ?????, ?????????. 

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy
sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I
will be their God.' 


?  ????????? ???????? ???-?????????, ???????? ???-????????? ????????--??????
?????????? ?????????, ?????????. 

9 And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant,
thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. 


?  ???? ????????? ?????? ???????????, ??????? ???????????, ?????? ????????,
?????????:  ??????? ?????, ????-?????. 

10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed
after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 


??  ????????????, ??? ??????? ???????????; ??????? ?????? ???????, ???????
???????????. 

11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall
be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 


??  ?????-???????? ??????, ??????? ????? ????-?????--????????????:  ??????
??????--?????????-?????? ?????? ????-?????, ?????? ??? ??????????? ????. 

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male
throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with
money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 


??  ??????? ??????? ?????? ????????, ????????? ??????????; ?????????
???????? ?????????????, ???????? ??????. 

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must
needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an
everlasting covenant. 


??  ??????? ?????, ?????? ???-??????? ???-??????? ?????????--???????????
????????? ??????, ??????????:  ???-?????????, ?????.  {?} 

14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his
foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My
covenant.' 


In verse 10, circumcision is called the covenant, but in the next verse it
is called the sign of the covenant, implying that the actual covenant is
something else.
Rabbi Hirsh sees this as a fundamental Jewish principle.
A commandment consists of two parts : the physical act and its underlying
moral or spiritual teaching - and neither is complete without the other.
Just as it is not enough to perform the commanded deeds if they are denuded
of intellectual and moral content, so it is not enough to philosophize on
the commandments and seek moral improvement without actually performing the
commandments. Hence, the physical act is the covenant, but it is also a sign
of the covenant's deeper meaning. Stone Chumash.

Now there are two higher forms of Torah ; Yezirah and Assaiah which to the
G-dly and Heavenly realm which are not part of this discussion.

When the new Covenant mentioned in Yirmiyahu 31 will be ratified with Beit
Yehudah and Beit Yisrael ,the rectification will be completed by means of
Torah Beriah.. The Torah Atzilut will be restored. How?
If the Torah was written by the finger of HaShem on tablets of stone, the
people who were circumcised in the flesh, were not at the spiritual level to
receive this revelation. Foreskin in Hebrew is "orlah" or barrier. There was
a barrier that impeded them from acceptance, that is a stoney heart, or
disobedience.
Hence Moshe implores the people to circumcise their hearts.
Eventually this barrier will be removed and HaShem will rewrite the Torah
Atzilut, by His Spirit in their hearts.

Now why did I write all of the above ?
Someone started the ball rolling by mentioning Isaiah 56.
Strangers, Eunuchs, Shabbats and house of prayers are all irrelevant if one
does not take hold of "My Covenant"
Yes, the Covenant was delivered, but have we taken hold of it ?
We cannot be His people if we are not in covenant with Him..... flesh and
heart..... Sinai and New Covenant.


?  ??????????? ???-????? ???-????? ??????????, ???? ????? ??????? ??????:
???-????? ??????-???????????????, ????? ??????????. 

6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel: Thus
saith the Lord GOD: O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your
abominations, 


?  ????????????? ??????-?????, ???????-??? ????????? ??????, ????????
??????????????, ?????????? ???-???????--??????????????? ???-???????, ?????
?????, ?????????? ???-?????????, ??? ????-???????????????. 

7 in that ye have brought in aliens, uncircumcised in heart and
uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to profane it, even My house,
when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My
covenant, to add unto all your abominations. 


?  ????? ???????????, ?????????? ????????; ?????????????, ??????????
????????????? ??????????????--?????.  {?} 

8 And ye have not kept the charge of My holy things; but ye have set keepers
of My charge in My sanctuary to please yourselves. {S} 


?  ????-?????, ??????? ??????, ????-????-????? ????? ??? ??????? ???????,
??? ?????? ???-???????????:  ?????-????-?????--??????, ???????? ??????
??????????. 

9 Thus saith the Lord GOD: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and
uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any alien that
is among the children of Israel.  Eze 44 v 6-9


My apologies for the long post. I felt compelled to write this.
In summing up Marvin, I admire your zeal and your commitment to the cause of
Torah and your statement :

"One of the things that finally drove the last nail in the coffin of
institionalized Christianity for me was coming to the understanding that God
is one and that knot I tied in the rope was none other then GOD TORAH and
ISRAEL are one. This standard or banner we can / should be able to ralley
around."

If I may add, G-D, TORAH, ISRAEL THE PEOPLE AND ISRAEL THE LAND are ONE.
Removing any one of the four from the equation renders it void.
For example a Jew that does not connect to the land renders the equation
void.
A Christian Zionist who loves G-d, the people and the land but does not
connect to Torah renders the equation void.
A Christian or Moslem who loves G-d but rejects the Torah, the people and
the land...... there is no equation nor covenant.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.




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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 16 07:25:03 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] All Strings Attached
Message-ID: <4A5F1C1F.4070102@mts.net>

*All Strings Attached*


/"We will pass over armed before the LORD into the land of Canaan, and 
the possession of our inheritance shall remain with us beyond the 
Jordan.And Moses gave unto them, to the children of Gad, and to the 
children of Reuben, and unto the half-tribe of Manasseh the son of 
Joseph, the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, and the kingdom of Og 
king of Bashan, the land, according to the cities thereof with their 
borders, even the cities of the land round about."/ (From this week's 
Torah portion, Matot, Numbers 32:32-33)

Once again this week, Israeli tourists were denied entry to Jordan 
because they had /tefillin/ (phylacteries) in their luggage. Tourists 
who look too religious, even if they do not have Jewish religious items 
in their bags - are not allowed to enter the Hashemite kingdom. "We do 
this for the safety of the tourists," the Jordanian government justifies 
itself. In other words, while we have signed a peace treaty with you, 
for which we received a huge amount of territory in the /Aravah/, a 
steady stream of water at the expense of dehydrated Israel, civilian 
flights in Israeli skies, profitable tourism and more - that didn't 
really reflect the feelings of the Jordanian "nation." Deep down, the 
Jordanians do not want peace with you. They want to eliminate you.

By the way, in Jordan, it is still a capital offense to sell land to a Jew.

The Jordanians seem to remember the Torah verses that include both banks 
of the Jordan River within the boundaries of Israel. The Jews prefer to 
forget. Ze'ev Jabotinsky's movement, Beitar, has already officially 
deleted its founder's claim to both banks of the Jordan from its 
platform. But believing Jews cannot delete verses from the Torah. That 
is why the Jordanians fear G-d fearing Jews.

The Jordan tourism issue is amazingly similar to the Temple Mount 
tourism issue. At the entrance to Judaism's most holy place, a strange 
differentiation is made between religious looking Jews or those Jews 
with religious articles in their bags and between Jews who do not look 
religious at all. The first group is delayed, their religious articles 
are confiscated and they are closely scrutinized while they are on the 
Temple Mount. The "normal" group enters the Mount with no delay and 
nobody pays them much attention.

Both the Jordanian and Israeli authorities are onto something. Deep in 
their subconscious, they understand the spiritual bond between the 
Nation of Israel and its entire land, with the focus on the Temple 
Mount. They think that it is just the "religious" who express this bond, 
and they do what they can to disconnect the two. Jew haters outside 
Israel are not concerned by religious Jews who have no connection to 
their land - just look at Achmadinijad and the Satmers. Jew haters in 
Israel are not concerned by Israelis who have no connection to their 
religion. But when we will have Jewish leadership that will attach all 
those strings - a complete nation with complete faith in a complete land 
- the Jew haters of the world will really have something to worry about!

Shabbat Shalom,

/Moshe Feiglin
/

/sent in by Cornie
/ 

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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 16 07:25:37 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Palestinian State Like it or Not
Message-ID: <4A5F1C41.3010207@mts.net>

*Palestinian State, Like it or Not*


This week, the EU's High Representative for the Common Foreign and 
Security Policy and former Secretary General of NATO, Javier Solana, 
proposed that the UN declare the establishment of a Palestinian state 
and accept it immediately into the United Nations as a way to end the 
Mid-East conflict.

Solana is just the first breach in the wall. As soon as Netanyahu 
accepted a two state solution in principle, nobody takes his conditions 
for such a state seriously. Now the world has begun to decide for us; 
who should be our Foreign Minister, who should be our ambassador to 
Egypt and soon, the world will simply create facts on the ground: a 
Palestinian state in /Yesha/ that will automatically be recognized by 
the UN.

No need to worry, though. The "Palestinians" will reject Solana's 
proposal, even if it will be devoid of any restrictions and will include 
all of Jerusalem. A "Palestinian" state will not be established because 
the most ideal situation for the terror gangs of Hamas and the PLO (the 
Palestinian Authority, in the Orwellian language that has been forced 
upon Israelis) is the perpetuation of the existing reality.

Seven years ago, I penned an article called /Beware: A Palestinian 
State/ in which I wrote as follows: "/Nothing scares Arafat more than 
the establishment of a Palestinian state. It scares him so much that 
when he was offered everything - including Jerusalem, including the 
Temple Mount and including Israeli sovereign territory in the Negev - he 
started a war. It sounds strange and illogical. He has been fighting all 
his life for these territories! But a rational analysis of his behavior 
leads inevitably to this conclusion. Just as the Oslo Accords are not a 
peace agreement at all, so the "Palestinian struggle" is not a struggle 
for liberation at all/." Click here for full article 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102641445687&s=29567&e=001YslgYv7_H3UAhXG3AvpINeT96xOhq6t60_KTxu_2RPCMVte8szQnaX3mg7qe3URluEwJb1apSV4zpwHueAxpGP-x50Ni4qBusgeNYE03aEdI_QrLRrne1LVtpuo3opxvR6UtuqyfNxcn-76mfS3lrhkHoCAV_PXEyAkxnSWTcLr52IwOBl8t1w==>. 


Cossacks do not run countries. Robbers cannot produce anything 
themselves. They need a source that will continue to produce so that 
they can continue to rob. When Ehud Barak offered Arafat everything, he 
quickly started a war. The last thing he wanted was a state.

The "Palestinians" do not want a state. But right now, conditions are 
being created in which the state they do not want will be established 
against their will by the UN - and or by Israel.

 From Manhigut Yehudit

Sent by Cornie

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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul 16 07:40:13 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:40:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"
Message-ID: <742661.32629.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Joe,
?
An excellent point about Avrahim, and one I was pondering on the drive into work this morning. So - just how did Avrahim become the 'friend of G-d'? Since he had no written Torah, just what did his 'day-to-day' walk look like? We know from Gen 26:5 that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
?
I was intending to pose this question to Ya'aqov (James) as a possible followup work to RAF, but see that instead, it?may be?intended for this group to persue first. How did Avrahim come to this knowledge, and how did he work it out daily? Let us avoid the easy answer of saying "YHVH gave him the Torah in his heart". While this may indeed be so, should not each of us also then have a similar experience? Levi and I often quip that if we had no written Torah to draw from, could we know YHVH and walk in His ways. Our answer is always "Yes"! So, how does this work in a practical sense? How do we also become friends of YHVH?
?
Glenn
?
--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:


From: Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 7:18 AM








Joe,
?

Interesting post, studying this some, I came up with several questions. First please clarify your comment? that the original faith or the faith that was delivered was delivered at Sinai.? It seems your using ?faith? as a noun for Torah.?? If Abraham is the father of the faithful, surely this means he gave birth to something??? Faith, yes!?? Isaac, yes! ?Man? and Mankind had a relationship with Hashem before Moses and the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai .? Did Hashem give some detail instruction at Sinai, Yes.?? Maybe, I?m missing the import of your statements, but I?m not of the understanding that all mankind will become Israelite or Jewish.?? If we all look alike, act alike, practice everything alike, would that not make us all ?alike?(southern for the same)? 
?
Also, your quote from Ezek. 44, shows us clearly that just as there are different positions in the temple service, there surely must be different positions in humanity at large.??? The aliens in these passages, do you think they are gentiles or just NOT of the tribe or Levitical priesthood and more specifically they are not of the line of Zodak?
?
I enjoy your post.? Keep them coming as time permits.
?
Shalom,
Marvin
?
?
?
?



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,the 4th of July&UniversalFreedom"]]]
?
Shalom Marvin,

boy, it took you one year to reply to this post ;-)? and I do not envy your wife.
Thanks for jumping in.

You made some very pertinent points regarding the original faith that was delivered.
The faith of Avraham was foundational and was an inner conversion that was based on conviction, obedience and revelation.
However, the faith that was "delivered" was the Torah on Har Sinai.
What is interesting to note is that the original delivery was rejected by the sin of the golden calf. This delivery ended up being smashed by Moshe and a reworked Torah was given.

The rabbis have taught me that the original Torah or the Torah "ATZILUT "( eminence) ie: tablets supplied by HaShem and written there upon by His finger were replaced by the Torah "BERIAH "( remaking) ie : tablets supplied by Moshe and written by Moshe at the dictation of HaShem (Exo 34 v27-28). 
Now the original ATZILUT is what you are all familiar with as written in Jer 7 v22- 23. 






??????? ???-????????? ???-??????????, ????? ?????????, ????? ????? (????????) ?????, ??????? ????????--???-??????? ?????, ???????. 

22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt , concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices; 


??????? ???-???-??????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????, ?????? ???????--????????? ????? ?????????, ?????? ??????-??? ?????; ???????????, ?????-???????? ????? ??????? ???????, ???????, ????? ?????. 

23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: 'Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' 

So why the Torah BERIAH ? Why the remaking? 
In Judaism there is the concept of "TIKKUN " or rectification. What went wrong ? THE GOLDEN CALF !!! So the golden calf invaded areas of communal living that needed rectification from dietary laws ( what and how they ate at this incident ) to the laws of offerings ( what and how they sacrificed at this incident) to the laws of morality ( sexual debauchery committed at this incident) to the laws of the priesthood ( the first born of Yisrael forfeited to Levi ) etc..... You get the picture.

So in a sense the Torah Atzilut was a continuation of the foundational revelation to Avraham .
The Torah Beriah was the rectification for the breaking of the original.

So opening up a can of worms, the covenant that was made with Avraham required a sign.




?????????????? ???-???????? ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ???????? ?????????--???????? ?????:? ??????? ???? ?????????, ??????????? ????????. 

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. 


???????????? ???? ??????????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????????, ??? ???-????? ???????, ?????????, ?????; ????????? ?????, ?????????. 

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan , for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.' 


??????????? ???????? ???-????????, ?????? ???-???????? ???????--???? ?????????? ????????, ?????????. 

9 And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. 


??????? ???????? ????? ????????, ?????? ??????????, ????? ????????, ????????:? ????? ?????, ???-?????. 

10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 


??????????????, ??? ????? ???????????; ??????? ????? ??????, ?????? ??????????. 

11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 


????????-??????? ??????, ???? ????? ???-?????--????????????:? ?????? ????--????????-????? ????? ???-?????, ????? ??? ?????????? ???. 

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 


????????? ???? ?????? ???????, ???????? ????????; ????????? ???????? ???????????, ???????? ?????. 

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 


??????????? ?????, ????? ???-???? ???-????? ????????--??????????? ??????? ??????, ?????????:? ???-????????, ?????.? {?} 

14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'?

In verse 10, circumcision is called the covenant, but in the next verse it is called the sign of the covenant, implying that the actual covenant is something else.
Rabbi Hirsh sees this as a fundamental Jewish principle.
A commandment consists of two parts : the physical act and its underlying moral or spiritual teaching - and neither is complete without the other. Just as it is not enough to perform the commanded deeds if they are denuded of intellectual and moral content, so it is not enough to philosophize on the commandments and seek moral improvement without actually performing the commandments. Hence, the physical act is the covenant, but it is also a sign of the covenant's deeper meaning. Stone Chumash.

Now there are two higher forms of Torah ; Yezirah and Assaiah which to the G-dly and Heavenly realm which are not part of this discussion.

When the new Covenant mentioned in Yirmiyahu 31 will be ratified with Beit Yehudah and Beit Yisrael ,the rectification will be completed by means of Torah Beriah.. The Torah Atzilut will be restored. How?
If the Torah was written by the finger of HaShem on tablets of stone, the people who were circumcised in the flesh, were not at the spiritual level to receive this revelation. Foreskin in Hebrew is "orlah" or barrier. There was a barrier that impeded them from acceptance, that is a stoney heart, or disobedience.
Hence Moshe implores the people to circumcise their hearts.
Eventually this barrier will be removed and HaShem will rewrite the Torah Atzilut, by His Spirit in their hearts.

Now why did I write all of the above ?
Someone started the ball rolling by mentioning Isaiah 56.
Strangers, Eunuchs, Shabbats and house of prayers are all irrelevant if one does not take hold of "My Covenant"
Yes, the Covenant was delivered, but have we taken hold of it ?
We cannot be His people if we are not in covenant with Him..... flesh and heart..... Sinai and New Covenant.




???????????? ???-????? ???-???? ????????, ??? ???? ??????? ??????:? ???-????? ?????-????????????, ???? ????????. 

6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel : Thus saith the Lord GOD: O ye house of Israel , let it suffice you of all your abominations, 


??????????????? ?????-?????, ???????-??? ????????? ?????, ??????? ???????????, ???????? ???-??????--?????????????? ???-???????, ????? ?????, ???????? ???-????????, ??? ???-????????????. 

7 in that ye have brought in aliens, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to profane it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant, to add unto all your abominations. 


???????? ?????????, ????????? ???????; ??????????, ????????? ??????????? ???????????--?????.? {?} 

8 And ye have not kept the charge of My holy things; but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary to please yourselves. {S} 


??????-????, ??????? ??????, ???-???-????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????, ??? ????? ???-?????????:? ?????-???-?????--?????, ?????? ????? ????????. 

9 Thus saith the Lord GOD: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any alien that is among the children of Israel .? Eze 44 v 6-9

My apologies for the long post. I felt compelled to write this.
In summing up Marvin, I admire your zeal and your commitment to the cause of Torah and your statement :

"One of the things that finally drove the last nail in the coffin of institionalized Christianity for me was coming to the understanding that God is one and that knot I tied in the rope was none other then GOD TORAH and ISRAEL are one. This standard or banner we can / should be able to ralley around."

If I may add, G-D, TORAH , ISRAEL THE PEOPLE AND ISRAEL THE LAND are ONE.
Removing any one of the four from the equation renders it void.
For example a Jew that does not connect to the land renders the equation void.
A Christian Zionist who loves G-d, the people and the land but does not connect to Torah renders the equation void.
A Christian or Moslem who loves G-d but rejects the Torah, the people and the land...... there is no equation nor covenant.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul 16 10:26:47 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:26:47 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Our list]
Message-ID: <4A5F46B7.5070002@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul 16 10:27:06 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:27:06 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Our list]
Message-ID: <4A5F46CA.8060602@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul 16 10:27:20 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:27:20 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <4A5F46D8.1000600@westnet.com.au>

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Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:18:26 -0400
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul 16 10:27:38 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:27:38 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"]
Message-ID: <4A5F46EA.8070409@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "The Noahide Message,& UniversalFreedom"
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:40:13 -0700 (PDT)
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 16 13:29:10 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:29:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Birthdays on SWW
Message-ID: <377653.29102.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Ross,
Thank you so much for taking the time to do that.? You take such good care of us.? 
?
Margie

--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Birthdays on SWW
To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:16 AM


I added a feature on sww to inform us when someone has a birthday. Check it out.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________



      
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 16 16:44:01 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:44:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Heads Up on Charlotte UIWU Hosting of Gordon & Johnson
	Meeting
Message-ID: <103FFFD5-662E-4196-83CC-DAB4A179F6D8@earthlink.net>

I wanted to confirm for everyone that UIWU is extraordinarily pleased  
to be hosting a very special and exclusive program at the Doubletree  
Inn and Suites in Southpark (same place we have had our annual meeting  
the past two years) Sunday after next, July 26th, featuring Nehemia  
Gordon and Keith Johnson focused on their new book, A Prayer to our  
Father. I will be sending out more details over the weekend but I  
wanted everyone to know the date, place, and time: Sunday, July 26th,  
4-6pm, Barringer Room.

James Tabor
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Jul 16 17:56:46 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:56:46 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] ROI KLEIN. PETITION.
Message-ID: <4A5FB02E.4090400@westnet.com.au>

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 16 21:34:25 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:34:25 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Prayer to Our Father: Details on the Upcoming Program
	July 26th
Message-ID: <DCF60631-E8E0-4254-8516-C96ACD00C4C7@earthlink.net>

On Sunday July 26th, Johnson and Gordon authors of A Prayer to our  
Father, will talk about their book at a special event sponsored by  
United Israel and hosted by Dr. James D. Tabor at the Doubletree Inn &  
Suites located in South Park (6300 Morrison Blvd, Charlotte, NC 28211  
Tel: 704-364-2400). This meeting will be from 4-6pm in the Barringer  
room. The public is invited and there is no admission charge. Copies  
of the book will be available for purchase.
See the Website: http://www.aprayertoourfather.com/ for further  
details on the book and the background of the authors.
Nehemia Gordon holds a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies and a  
Bachelors Degree in Archaeology from the Hebrew University of  
Jerusalem. Gordon has worked as a translator on the Dead Sea Scrolls  
and as a researcher deciphering ancient Hebrew manuscripts. He has  
been invited to speak in synagogues and churches around the world and  
has led groups of pilgrims and visitors on tours of biblical sites. A  
native of Chicago, Nehemia has made his home in Jerusalem, Israel for  
the last fifteen years.

Keith Johnson earned his Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical  
Divinity School and has spent nearly two decades in Christian  
ministry. As an ordained Elder in the United Methodist Church, Johnson  
has served as pastor of Park Avenue Church in Minneapolis and as  
chaplain of the Minnesota Vikings. Johnson was also chosen as one of  
only 40 chaplains from around the world to serve the athletes of the  
1996 Olympics Games in Atlanta. Keith lives in Charlotte, North  
Carolina with his wife and sons.


  
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 01:40:27 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:40:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W12467A3CE17409E3BA996AC8210@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W12467A3CE17409E3BA996AC8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907162340ue9e6a65iad27708eec41118@mail.gmail.com>

Marvin,
Love it!  Great analogy!

Kim

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Catherine Cashmore
<chcashmore at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  I couldn't have put it better Marvin!  Someone's 'living room' is a
> wonderful way of wording how this group feels!  i to Love the in depth
> study, and  the wonderful fellowship we share is a bonding spirit where we
> can pray, talk and learn together.  Thank you!
> ------------------------------
> Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find out
> more. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 17 11:56:54 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:56:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Our list
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907162340ue9e6a65iad27708eec41118@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT108-W12467A3CE17409E3BA996AC8210@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907162340ue9e6a65iad27708eec41118@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C7B3AB18DD04CD684D56B3E6EED2BA1@bettylaptop>

I agree, Marvin.absolutely.and it is a living room big enough yet intimate
enough to encompass people from all over the world!  Baruch HaShem!

 

Thanks & Shabbat Shalom

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:40 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Our list

 

Marvin,

 

Love it!  Great analogy!

 

Kim

 

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
wrote:

I couldn't have put it better Marvin!  Someone's 'living room' is a
wonderful way of wording how this group feels!  i to Love the in depth
study, and  the wonderful fellowship we share is a bonding spirit where we
can pray, talk and learn together.  Thank you!

  _____  

Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live. Find
<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/>  out more.


_______________________________________________

 

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From webhulon at msn.com  Fri Jul 17 12:50:47 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <1F29E738-C21E-4C5A-8EBD-F382F2826FC9@me.com>
References: <1F29E738-C21E-4C5A-8EBD-F382F2826FC9@me.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W5278B51787C50B3A19239EC51E0@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,
 
Let?s ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to review the purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living room.
 
I am surprised that more folks didn?t take it this way, but then again maybe this wasn?t the way it was meant to be taken.  And if folks did understand him to mean this, then I am really surprised at how many folks said ?You?re wonderful, but we like what we?re doing and we won?t change it.?  That seems quite disrespectful to me. It seems to me that while Ross has been gracious enough to provide plenty of room at SWW, folks have turned his study into a living room.
 
I don?t want to rain on anyone?s parade or take anything valuable from anyone, and a little time in the living room is great now and then, but more time in the study would bring far greater profit.  I find it hard to focus in the living room with everyone chatting about this and that.  I prefer the focus of the study and, if this list is the living room, maybe I?ll see you in the kitchen some time. 
 
Of course I don?t speak for Ross and maybe I have totally misunderstood his intention.  If so, may we all learn from my mistake.
 
Be blessed,
Web 


 
> From: rossknichols at me.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:25:00 -0500
> Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
> 
> I intend to write more later in the day about this if I have time, but 
> feel that I should direct everyone's attention back to the purpose of 
> this list.
> 
> If you have never read it, or if it has been a while since you read 
> it, please do so. I have a great deal of time and energy invested into 
> learning and in trying to practice true dialogue. I do this in my 
> personal and professional life as well. I believe in it and in the 
> results that can be achieved when people participate in real dialogue.
> 
> I have chosen to allow all sorts of discussions to take place on this 
> list because I have felt that people were demonstrating a need to 
> simply communicate, but now I feel that I should point people back to 
> a more focused approach to the great "biblical" questions of our day. 
> Perhaps this is because of my limited interest in other topics. Not 
> real sure, but we have an excellent opportunity with our mixed 
> multitude to air out our views and discover wonderful truth if we do 
> this and do it right.
> 
> Please read the document again!
> 
> Www.rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
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From rossknichols at me.com  Fri Jul 17 13:30:59 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The list
Message-ID: <7D650617-BBD0-4640-A8A1-EF6DF865CDF1@me.com>

I do plan to write on the subject of the list at some point this  
weekend as I said in my previous note. My weeks all look basically the  
same. I have to work extreme hours all week in my job. Friday evening  
are usually spent preparing for my class and the rest of the weekend I  
try very hard to have some quality family time. I apologize for not  
writing more. Be patient and I will write as I can. There are many  
firmly held opinions on the subject of the list. Thanks for all the  
feedback. I am at work and don't have time to respond at this time. An  
early shabbat shalom.

Try and join us in the morning if you need a place to meet for the  
Sabbath.

Sent from my iPhone


From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 17 14:11:32 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:11:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Flash News--Ross Nichols to Join Charlotte Program July
	26th
Message-ID: <6BBB39B8-F80F-4EB4-AB9B-1FEABC204A91@earthlink.net>

Ross Nichols has agreed to fly up to Charlotte for the program with  
Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson on Sunday, July 26th. We are very  
excited to have him with us and I believe his presence will make the  
gathering just all that more "historic." I want to encourage any of  
you to come who can arrange it. If you need a hotel room you can  
probably work out a good deal through the Doubletree if you ask for  
Cameron and tell them you are with United Israel.

Shabbat Shalom!

James Tabor


From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 17 14:15:23 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:15:23 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Program for Sunday, July 26th: Please Circulate
Message-ID: <F893860A-441A-4192-8BFF-B3B330BFE43E@earthlink.net>

Here below, and also attached, is a more formal announcement of the  
program on July 26th here in Charlotte, NC with Nehemia Gordon and  
Keith Johnson. Feel free to circulate.

Shabbat Shalom,

James



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
++++++++++++++++++++++++



On Sunday July 26th, Keith Johnson and Nehemia Gordon, authors of a  
new book titled A Prayer to our Father, will talk about their research  
and their unusual relationship, one a Christian minister, the other a  
Jewish scholar, at a special event sponsored by United Israel and  
hosted by Dr. James D. Tabor at the Doubletree Inn & Suites located in  
South Park (6300 Morrison Blvd, Charlotte, NC 28211 Tel:  
704-364-2400). This meeting will be from 4-6pm in the Barringer room.  
The public is invited and there is no admission charge. Copies of the  
book will be available for purchase.

Two billion Christians worldwide consider the Lord?s Prayer the  
ultimate expression of their faith?but few know the stunning story of  
its Hebrew origins. A Prayer to Our Father (175 pp., tpb, $19.95) is  
the true story of an exciting journey of faith of a Jewish Bible  
scholar and an African American pastor who join forces to uncover the  
truth about the most beloved prayer in the Christian world.

Their provocative new book reads like a detective novel. Written by  
two most unlikely collaborators, the charismatic personalities of the  
authors are as riveting as the story. Former chaplain to the Minnesota  
Vikings, Keith Johnson has ministered to some of the top names in the  
NFL and NBA. Jerusalem-based Jewish scholar and author, Nehemia  
Gordon, has spent his career translating the Dead Sea Scrolls and  
studying the deep mysteries of the Jewish religion.

Johnson and Gordon?s gripping adventure begins in the ancient city of  
Jerusalem and takes them to the very spot in Galilee where Jesus  
taught the multitudes to pray. Along the way they discover a Hebrew  
version of the Lord?s Prayer, preserved in secret by Jewish rabbis for  
over a thousand years. Their riveting journey and extraordinary  
relationship are chronicled in A Prayer to Our Father.

See the Website: http://www.aprayertoourfather.com/ for further  
details on the book and the background of the authors.

Nehemia Gordon holds a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies and a  
Bachelors Degree in Archaeology from the Hebrew University of  
Jerusalem. Gordon has worked as a translator on the Dead Sea Scrolls  
and as a researcher deciphering ancient Hebrew manuscripts. He has  
been invited to speak in synagogues and churches around the world and  
has led groups of pilgrims and visitors on tours of biblical sites. A  
native of Chicago, Nehemia has made his home in Jerusalem, Israel for  
the last fifteen years.

Keith Johnson earned his Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical  
Divinity School and has spent nearly two decades in Christian  
ministry. As an ordained Elder in the United Methodist Church, Johnson  
has served as pastor of Park Avenue Church in Minneapolis and as  
chaplain of the Minnesota Vikings. Johnson was also chosen as one of  
only 40 chaplains from around the world to serve the athletes of the  
1996 Olympics Games in Atlanta. Keith lives in Charlotte, North  
Carolina with his wife and sons.
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 15:42:10 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
Message-ID: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just wanted to chime in. ?Maybe it would be a good idea to create another mailing list. ?
This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots of faith list, and those who are can be a member of both. ?Everyone wins this way.
I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about 5 minutes. ?I named it the Living Room.
If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any time. ?All I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on the new list. Or, someone else could create one. ?
Just a thought.
Cody


      
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Fri Jul 17 15:55:00 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:55:00 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <c7a.5990d546.37923f24@aol.com>

Hi Dave,
 
Keen & cutting insight as ever - I reckon sometimes being  eaten by the 
fish is the only choice we seem capable of making - only then do we  get things 
straight in our head - dark night of the soul type thing!
See we are too busy sleeping deeply most of the time to notice whats going  
on - especially the changing times and dangerous waters we are busy sailing 
 into, to busy sleeping to do anything and make the necessary actions in  
advance to change the circumstance that stops us from being left with  
nothing but the fish guts and stomach acid. We need to work at learning to wake  
ourselves up from our topor and face things head on instead of running - but  
that is a hard thing to do - easier to be eaten by the fish in the hopes 
someone  will rescue us. 
 
That aside can I ask for a link to the internet version of the Jewish  
scriptures you use as I would be interested to be able to use it for comparative 
 reading and study - at the minute I use the JPS (1917) on the internet 
from  _http://www.mechon-mamre.org/_ (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/)  and  have 
a copy of the Oxford Jewish Study Bible in print form that gets used as  
well.
 
I would love it if others could recommend any scripture links or  
commentary/study page links they find particularly insightful/interesting, and  also 
any key books as well (if you can provide ISBNs that would be fantastic as  
well).
 
Cheers
 
Melanie
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 17 17:22:49 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:22:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
In-Reply-To: <c7a.5990d546.37923f24@aol.com>
References: <c7a.5990d546.37923f24@aol.com>
Message-ID: <75135E5BA2AF421DBAC269C02122A389@bettylaptop>

Thanks so much Melanie for your thoughtful post on Jonah.  Facing things
head on is an excellent way to handle things.running away always seems to
pose additional difficulty for us. Yet, many times, we seem to fall into the
same trap as Jonah did. I try to combat this by reciting the Jewish prayer
daily upon awakening, the Mo'deh Ani.

 

"I gratefully think You, O living and eternal King, for You have returned my
soul within me with compassion - abundant is your faithfulness."

 

Sometimes this helps, as it at least starts my waking consciousness with an
awareness of HaShem.  As you and Kim mentioned, HaShem in His mercy
continually offers us second chances.this is His history throughout the
Tanakh.  There is always a way back to HaShem through T'shuvah.and this is
His desire for us.to return to him.no matter how far we have strayed!  

 

BTW, I use the http://www.mechon-mamre.org <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/>
web link as well.  I know several on our list, including Ross and some of
his group in Louisiana use Hertz.  I like Hertz, but I also like to use the
Hirsch Pentateuch to follow the Torah and haftorah readings.  I really get a
lot out of the insights he presents in his commentaries. I know many use the
Strong's Concordance as well. I also absolutely love the Artscroll Siddur
for the daily prayers.  It has some good commentary on the origin of some of
the Jewish prayers that are really eye-opening and speak to my heart.

 

Anyway, thanks, Melanie.I like your honest, forthright style of writing and
appreciate your contribution.  Hopefully, at some time later, I can get back
into contributing as well.

 

Shabbat Shalom to you and all!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of MELA91E at aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 3:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks

 

Hi Dave,

 

Keen & cutting insight as ever - I reckon sometimes being eaten by the fish
is the only choice we seem capable of making - only then do we get things
straight in our head - dark night of the soul type thing!

See we are too busy sleeping deeply most of the time to notice whats going
on - especially the changing times and dangerous waters we are busy sailing
into, to busy sleeping to do anything and make the necessary actions in
advance to change the circumstance that stops us from being left with
nothing but the fish guts and stomach acid. We need to work at learning to
wake ourselves up from our topor and face things head on instead of running
- but that is a hard thing to do - easier to be eaten by the fish in the
hopes someone will rescue us. 

 

That aside can I ask for a link to the internet version of the Jewish
scriptures you use as I would be interested to be able to use it for
comparative reading and study - at the minute I use the JPS (1917) on the
internet from http://www.mechon-mamre.org/ and have a copy of the Oxford
Jewish Study Bible in print form that gets used as well.

 

I would love it if others could recommend any scripture links or
commentary/study page links they find particularly insightful/interesting,
and also any key books as well (if you can provide ISBNs that would be
fantastic as well).

 

Cheers

 

Melanie

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 17 17:23:43 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:23:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W5278B51787C50B3A19239EC51E0@phx.gbl>
References: <1F29E738-C21E-4C5A-8EBD-F382F2826FC9@me.com>
	<BAY107-W5278B51787C50B3A19239EC51E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DFD7DBAF592D42F78BA5A61A20C6CECD@bettylaptop>

Dear Web and all,

 

I am very confused and bewildered. Perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose
of the list, and if so I apologize to you and to all.  I would never want to
disrespect Ross or anyone else in our group including you, Web, so I have
chosen not to write any more posts asking for any prayer requests or share
any personal information on this list until I have assurance that it is
permissible to do so.  I do not wish to engage in a debate or any more
discussion regarding this matter.  It is too hurtful and I don't have the
time or the energy for it.

 

Quite frankly, I have too many things going on at present in my personal
life that inhibit me from sharing any Biblical study topics to any degree of
depth or clarity. Hopefully this will change.  

 

I realize that maybe I am being overly sensitive and if so, I deeply
apologize.

 

Shabbat Shalom & May HaShem's blessings be upon us all,

 

Elisheva/Betty 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:51 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list

 

Shalom all,

 

Let's ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to review the
purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging
everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social
aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was
intended to be the living room.

 

I am surprised that more folks didn't take it this way, but then again maybe
this wasn't the way it was meant to be taken.  And if folks did understand
him to mean this, then I am really surprised at how many folks said "You're
wonderful, but we like what we're doing and we won't change it."  That seems
quite disrespectful to me. It seems to me that while Ross has been gracious
enough to provide plenty of room at SWW, folks have turned his study into a
living room.

 

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade or take anything valuable from
anyone, and a little time in the living room is great now and then, but more
time in the study would bring far greater profit.  I find it hard to focus
in the living room with everyone chatting about this and that.  I prefer the
focus of the study and, if this list is the living room, maybe I'll see you
in the kitchen some time. 

 

Of course I don't speak for Ross and maybe I have totally misunderstood his
intention.  If so, may we all learn from my mistake.

 

Be blessed,

Web 


 
> From: rossknichols at me.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:25:00 -0500
> Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
> 
> I intend to write more later in the day about this if I have time, but 
> feel that I should direct everyone's attention back to the purpose of 
> this list.
> 
> If you have never read it, or if it has been a while since you read 
> it, please do so. I have a great deal of time and energy invested into 
> learning and in trying to practice true dialogue. I do this in my 
> personal and professional life as well. I believe in it and in the 
> results that can be achieved when people participate in real dialogue.
> 
> I have chosen to allow all sorts of discussions to take place on this 
> list because I have felt that people were demonstrating a need to 
> simply communicate, but now I feel that I should point people back to 
> a more focused approach to the great "biblical" questions of our day. 
> Perhaps this is because of my limited interest in other topics. Not 
> real sure, but we have an excellent opportunity with our mixed 
> multitude to air out our views and discover wonderful truth if we do 
> this and do it right.
> 
> Please read the document again!
> 
> Www.rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________

  _____  

Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
<http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009> 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 17 18:14:42 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:14:42 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS818819833E2EA1E4B6776BA1E0@phx.gbl>

Of course I always think your ideas absolutely brilliant, Cody!!!  I'm happy with whatever everyone else wants to do.  I love visiting in the Living Room, and I love listening in on the deep discussions that are usually running concurrently on Dialogue.    In fact, I often find myself thinking that Dialogue is like a Chronicle of the day to day lives of Returning Israel as it comes back to life from the Valley of Dry Bones.  I think it a fascinating phenomenon to behold.

In so far as raising the bar goes, I believe that if someone wishes to jump in with what they consider a new height, they will most probably find quite willing and extremely able respondents to their initiation.  The people who have landed on this website have gotten this far because of a lot of study and a lot of prayer time, so just say whatever you have to say and I'm sure you'll get some great responses.  

I miss Steve Mathe's bar raising immensely!!!!  Steve, we NEED you.  Joe is fantastic with his Rabbinic input, and Marvin always has great incite.  Hanoch keeps us informed and uncomfortable with the statue quo.  Cornie is our heart.  When James has time to write, his words are always profound.   Betty has not only a great mind and a wealth of knowledge, but adds a cohesiveness to the group that is priceless.  Patty and John each add spark and zest to the mix.  

I just realized that this will get REALLY REALLY long if I keep mentioning every single person, so I'll stop here, but I think you get my idea.  We are all coming from our own individual walk with HaShem and converging at this website called Dialogue.  It is a celebration of the Journey Home.  It is about individuals and their contributions to this most historic Journey.  We are leaving Egypt AGAIN.  We are talking as we walk Home.  We are learning what the others think and how they perceive events as they unfold in our world, as well as working out how we are understanding G-d's Word as we attempt to live it daily.

So again I say, bring it on!  Let's talk.  Raise the bar.  We're out here.  

Shabbat Shalom, Dear Friends,

Avigail/Pat


From: Cody 
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 4:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list


            Just wanted to chime in.  Maybe it would be a good idea to create another mailing list.   


            This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots of faith list, and those who are can be a member of both.  Everyone wins this way.


            I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about 5 minutes.  I named it the Living Room.


            If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any time.  All I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on the new list. Or, someone else could create one.  


            Just a thought.


            Cody 
     




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From MELA91E at aol.com  Fri Jul 17 18:21:14 2009
From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:21:14 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks
Message-ID: <c0c.62d3bce7.3792616a@aol.com>

Hi Kim (and the rest of the list),
 
Thanks for the words on Jonah - you are not alone in the running away or  
the judgement thing!
 
One thing though - and please don't take offence as you might be right and  
me wrong - or either of us right in parts or neither of us wrong at all  
<grin>, in your response you say:
 
 
'I think one of our biggest idols is self.  We need to not rely on  our own 
understanding, only on HaShem's.  
In His wisdom, '
 
Ok I totally agree with the self idol thing - raising ourselves up above  
where we should be is a common human fault and the scriptures are full of us  
doing it and warnings about it that we still have yet to heed and take on 
board  - actually Dave on SWW started a great post on Jeremiah 16 that kind 
of got into  a discussion on this (which reminds me I still owe Dave a 
response on that over  on SWW - I'll get to it Dave, still studying and 
formulating but last I  looked you were doing great without my input!). 
I also think this is even more prevalent in this day and age when we have  
convinced ourselves that we can do anything and find the answer to anything 
by  ourselves. Our independence that is bolstered by repeated self-help 
articles and  motivational speakers, etc. is nothing more than the cult of self. 
 
We have forgotten completely the idea's contained in Proverbs 3:5ff
'5 Trust in the LORD with all thy heart, and lean not upon  thine own 
understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge  Him, and He will direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in  thine own eyes; fear the LORD, and depart from evil;
8  It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
 
Of course Jonah also missed the mark here! ;0)
 
You then said:
'He will choose whom He will choose.  His plan for mankind  will prevail 
with or without me.  If I don't follow His path, then He will  simply choose 
someone else to do His work.  Had Jonah not gone to Ninevah,  He would have 
sent someone else for He knew that they would repent.  This  is the biggest 
lesson that I have learned from Jonah...only HaShem knows the  hearts of men'.
 
In this bit I agree totally with the fact that He will choose whom He will  
- stutterers like Moses, Prodigals like Jonah, Adulterers like David and 
all  hosts of others in the middle and outer extremes as well - HaShem can use 
anyone  for anything, but most noteably he uses each of us for His own 
plan. 
I do not thing that his plan for Mankind will prevail without you as given  
you are here you are part of that plan whether you want to be or not - even 
 rejecting him wont change that for any of us as far as I see it. As he 
said to  Jeremiah:
 
 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly  I knew thee, and before thou camest 
forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; 
 
and then in Psalm 139:
 
7 Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I  flee from Thy 
presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven,  Thou art there; if I make my bed in the 
nether-world, behold, Thou art  there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell  in the uttermost parts of 
the sea;
10 Even there would  Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand would hold me.
11  And if I say: 'Surely the darkness shall envelop me, and the light 
about me  shall be night';
12 Even the darkness is not too dark  for Thee, {N}
but the night shineth as the day; the darkness is even  as the light.
13 For Thou hast made my reins; Thou hast  knit me together in my mother's 
womb.
 
 
Yeah maybe he was talking to Jeremiah in the first one, but as the psalmist 
 also acknowledges this also holds true to all of us - before we were even 
born  we were known and planned for.
We cannot escape from HaShem.

 

So I don't agree that if you don't follow his plan he will simply choose  
someone else. I can think of no evidence in the scriptures of HaShem  
choosing someone else to get the job the done (and I might be wrong  and 
overlooking something really big here so if so slap me up the  head, call me stupid 
and point it out for me! thanks)- He may  choose someone to complete the job 
but he doesn't just choose someone else to do  the job - in fact in pretty 
much all cases he makes a point of saying them  to - 'You, it's You, I picked 
you, yes you - shut up and get on with it - no i'm  not sending him I chose 
you and you will and can do it'.
 
If HaShem would just have chosen someone else why did he chase Jonah down?? 
 the whole point is that Jonah was the one to do the job. Had Jonah not 
done it I  don't think HaShem would have sent someone else because the only one 
for  whatever reason that could do it as HaShem wanted it done was Jonah! 
now whether  that was a lesson for Jonah to learn or due to his style or 
whatever, the person  for the job was Jonah and only Jonah. 
 
It's not just in Jonah we see this theme of being called and set apart  for 
the job at hand - we see this repeatedly in the scriptures:
 
1 Sam 3:4 that the LORD called Samuel; and he said:  'Here am I.' 5 And he 
ran unto Eli, and said: 'Here am I;  for thou didst call me.' And he said: 
'I called not; lie down again.' And he  went and lay down. {S} 6 And the LORD 
called yet  again Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said: 'Here 
am I; for thou  didst call me.' And he answered: 'I called not, my son; lie 
down again.' 7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word  
of the LORD yet revealed unto him. 
 
 
Jeremiah 1:5
Ezekiel 1:3
Exodus 3:11
and lots more!
 
So sorry but no, had Jonah not gone then I don't believe HaShem would  have 
just chosen someone else and sent them instead. It was Jonah or  no-one.
That's not the same as worshipping at the Cult of Self because Jonah nor  
none of the others are that type of self orientated people as we are today. 
You see whereas we would totally want the job and go for the Kudos of it,  
allowing ourselves to become maybe a little big headed or lapping up the  
adulation or negative vibes - and yes part of the cult of self is doing  
ourselves down all the while, its a reverse psychology thing hence the self help  
books and misery true story books that help us feel good about how though 
life  is bad and I have a bad self image really I am pretty good and special  
because I have this issue that sets me apart, etc., etc. - that was not 
their  psychology.
They did not want the job, heck Jonah runs and though the others don't  
initially see themselves as worthy or up to the task they do it anyway because  
its what they are called to do - a different psychology to that of cult of  
self!
 
So would that mean that Ninevah, though so ripe for repentance, would have  
lost out on it has Jonah not gone? Well there's the interesting question - 
Would  HaShem not have pity and mercy anyway given he already knew the 
hearts of the  people of Ninevah? Does HaShem really need the Prophets or us to 
do his work? Is  it the action or the heart that changes things? 
Interesting isn't it? I know what I think on this one but would love to  
hear what others think.
 
Okay hope that all made some kind of sense and thanks Kim for adding to the 
 discussion and for really making me think some more! and again I 
re-iterate I  hope you don't take any offence at this as that's not my aim, i'm just 
sharing  my thoughts on your thoughts and my thoughts are just as likely to 
be wrong!  Please feel free to call me on anything I have said - and anyone 
else too!
 
Best
 
Melanie


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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Jul 17 21:59:44 2009
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:59:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Prayer to Our Father: Details on the Upcoming
	Program	July 26th
In-Reply-To: <DCF60631-E8E0-4254-8516-C96ACD00C4C7@earthlink.net>
References: <DCF60631-E8E0-4254-8516-C96ACD00C4C7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <029901ca0753$cf0bd6a0$6d2383e0$@com>

Hi. I so much wish I could be  here for this. I would like to hear comments
on how many times YHWH is referred to in the Hebrew scriptures as "Father".

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: The Garretts; Kolzimrah at bellsouth.net; tirzah.luczynski at yahoo.com; John
HIll; Jeanne Rees; culturedsista7 at aol.com; Buntyn Becky
Subject: [Dialogue] A Prayer to Our Father: Details on the Upcoming Program
July 26th

 

On Sunday July 26th, Johnson and Gordon authors of A Prayer to our Father,
will talk about their book at a special event sponsored by United Israel and
hosted by Dr. James D. Tabor at the Doubletree Inn & Suites located in South
Park (6300 Morrison Blvd, Charlotte, NC 28211 Tel: 704-364-2400). This
meeting will be from 4-6pm in the Barringer room. The public is invited and
there is no admission charge. Copies of the book will be available for
purchase.

See the Website: http://www.aprayertoourfather.com/ for further details on
the book and the background of the authors.

Nehemia Gordon holds a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies and a Bachelors
Degree in Archaeology from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Gordon has
worked as a translator on the Dead Sea Scrolls and as a researcher
deciphering ancient Hebrew manuscripts. He has been invited to speak in
synagogues and churches around the world and has led groups of pilgrims and
visitors on tours of biblical sites. A native of Chicago, Nehemia has made
his home in Jerusalem, Israel for the last fifteen years.

Keith Johnson earned his Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical
Divinity School and has spent nearly two decades in Christian ministry. As
an ordained Elder in the United Methodist Church, Johnson has served as
pastor of Park Avenue Church in Minneapolis and as chaplain of the Minnesota
Vikings. Johnson was also chosen as one of only 40 chaplains from around the
world to serve the athletes of the 1996 Olympics Games in Atlanta. Keith
lives in Charlotte, North Carolina with his wife and sons.

 

 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 17 22:31:16 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:31:16 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <DFD7DBAF592D42F78BA5A61A20C6CECD@bettylaptop>
References: <1F29E738-C21E-4C5A-8EBD-F382F2826FC9@me.com>
	<BAY107-W5278B51787C50B3A19239EC51E0@phx.gbl>
	<DFD7DBAF592D42F78BA5A61A20C6CECD@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <F707A640-5187-47FF-913C-882F7578E126@earthlink.net>

Betty and all,

Ross can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Web or anyone else  
wants to put a clamp or damper on any and all expressions on the  
Dialogue list, personal, Biblical, or otherwise. It is the case that  
sometimes people seem to forget that an Internet Discussion list is  
made up of dozens and dozens of people so that very narrow messages,  
intended for just one person, are probably not as relevant to the  
wider purposes of the list as more general things. And I think we  
would all agree that if everyone on the list say "Happy Birthday" to  
everyone else, on every birthday, we would have about a hundred  
messages a week of various birthday greetings, and even then some poor  
soul with a birthday would be left out! You should not feel restricted  
in what you want to communicate and I think those like Ross, Web,  
maybe even me if I could get the time (home tonight after six weeks  
traveling), and lots of others, can post whatever deeper "study" posts  
they wish and all will be grateful. My own idea is that a list such as  
this ebbs and flows by the reality of those who take the time to post  
something and if it veers more one direction or the other, well, hey,  
cyberspace is open, so start typing!

Shabbat Shalom!

James


On Jul 17, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:

> Dear Web and all,
>
> I am very confused and bewildered. Perhaps I have misunderstood the  
> purpose of the list, and if so I apologize to you and to all.  I  
> would never want to disrespect Ross or anyone else in our group  
> including you, Web, so I have chosen not to write any more posts  
> asking for any prayer requests or share any personal information on  
> this list until I have assurance that it is permissible to do so.  I  
> do not wish to engage in a debate or any more discussion regarding  
> this matter.  It is too hurtful and I don?t have the time or the  
> energy for it.
>
> Quite frankly, I have too many things going on at present in my  
> personal life that inhibit me from sharing any Biblical study topics  
> to any degree of depth or clarity. Hopefully this will change.
>
> I realize that maybe I am being overly sensitive and if so, I deeply  
> apologize.
>
> Shabbat Shalom & May HaShem?s blessings be upon us all,
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:51 PM
> To: roots of faith
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
>
> Shalom all,
>
> Let?s ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to  
> review the purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that  
> he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural  
> dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully  
> suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living  
> room.
>
> I am surprised that more folks didn?t take it this way, but then  
> again maybe this wasn?t the way it was meant to be taken.  And if  
> folks did understand him to mean this, then I am really surprised at  
> how many folks said ?You?re wonderful, but we like what we?re doing  
> and we won?t change it.?  That seems quite disrespectful to me. It  
> seems to me that while Ross has been gracious enough to provide  
> plenty of room at SWW, folks have turned his study into a living room.
>
> I don?t want to rain on anyone?s parade or take anything valuable  
> from anyone, and a little time in the living room is great now and  
> then, but more time in the study would bring far greater profit.  I  
> find it hard to focus in the living room with everyone chatting  
> about this and that.  I prefer the focus of the study and, if this  
> list is the living room, maybe I?ll see you in the kitchen some time.
>
> Of course I don?t speak for Ross and maybe I have totally  
> misunderstood his intention.  If so, may we all learn from my mistake.
>
> Be blessed,
> Web
>
>
>
> > From: rossknichols at me.com
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:25:00 -0500
> > Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
> >
> > I intend to write more later in the day about this if I have time,  
> but
> > feel that I should direct everyone's attention back to the purpose  
> of
> > this list.
> >
> > If you have never read it, or if it has been a while since you read
> > it, please do so. I have a great deal of time and energy invested  
> into
> > learning and in trying to practice true dialogue. I do this in my
> > personal and professional life as well. I believe in it and in the
> > results that can be achieved when people participate in real  
> dialogue.
> >
> > I have chosen to allow all sorts of discussions to take place on  
> this
> > list because I have felt that people were demonstrating a need to
> > simply communicate, but now I feel that I should point people back  
> to
> > a more focused approach to the great "biblical" questions of our  
> day.
> > Perhaps this is because of my limited interest in other topics. Not
> > real sure, but we have an excellent opportunity with our mixed
> > multitude to air out our views and discover wonderful truth if we do
> > this and do it right.
> >
> > Please read the document again!
> >
> > Www.rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > _______________________________________________
>
> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 17 22:32:27 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:32:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS818819833E2EA1E4B6776BA1E0@phx.gbl>
References: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL119-DS818819833E2EA1E4B6776BA1E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2F1AFA21-903F-4E22-8C21-A9D8C94F504B@earthlink.net>

This is great Pat and very close to what I just tried to express, but  
maybe in different language.

Thanks!

James


On Jul 17, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Pat Robbins wrote:

> Of course I always think your ideas absolutely brilliant, Cody!!!   
> I'm happy with whatever everyone else wants to do.  I love visiting  
> in the Living Room, and I love listening in on the deep discussions  
> that are usually running concurrently on Dialogue.    In fact, I  
> often find myself thinking that Dialogue is like a Chronicle of the  
> day to day lives of Returning Israel as it comes back to life from  
> the Valley of Dry Bones.  I think it a fascinating phenomenon to  
> behold.
>
> In so far as raising the bar goes, I believe that if someone wishes  
> to jump in with what they consider a new height, they will most  
> probably find quite willing and extremely able respondents to their  
> initiation.  The people who have landed on this website have gotten  
> this far because of a lot of study and a lot of prayer time, so just  
> say whatever you have to say and I'm sure you'll get some great  
> responses.
>
> I miss Steve Mathe's bar raising immensely!!!!  Steve, we NEED you.   
> Joe is fantastic with his Rabbinic input, and Marvin always has  
> great incite.  Hanoch keeps us informed and uncomfortable with the  
> statue quo.  Cornie is our heart.  When James has time to write, his  
> words are always profound.   Betty has not only a great mind and a  
> wealth of knowledge, but adds a cohesiveness to the group that is  
> priceless.  Patty and John each add spark and zest to the mix.
>
> I just realized that this will get REALLY REALLY long if I keep  
> mentioning every single person, so I'll stop here, but I think you  
> get my idea.  We are all coming from our own individual walk with  
> HaShem and converging at this website called Dialogue.  It is a  
> celebration of the Journey Home.  It is about individuals and their  
> contributions to this most historic Journey.  We are leaving Egypt  
> AGAIN.  We are talking as we walk Home.  We are learning what the  
> others think and how they perceive events as they unfold in our  
> world, as well as working out how we are understanding G-d's Word as  
> we attempt to live it daily.
>
> So again I say, bring it on!  Let's talk.  Raise the bar.  We're out  
> here.
>
> Shabbat Shalom, Dear Friends,
>
> Avigail/Pat
>
> From: Cody
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 4:42 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
>
> Just wanted to chime in.  Maybe it would be a good idea to create  
> another mailing list.
>
> This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots  
> of faith list, and those who are can be a member of both.  Everyone  
> wins this way.
>
> I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about  
> 5 minutes.  I named it the Living Room.
>
> If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any  
> time.  All I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on  
> the new list. Or, someone else could create one.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Cody
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 18 05:05:50 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:05:50 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W65FD6AE1F112536AA60978C81F0@phx.gbl>


I strongly believe we need to keep this list 'united' for all.  ONE place to come and read.  Avigail - you put it so well.  I enjoy so much reading the lighter dialogue amidst the heartier dialogue.  The updates, the stories and requests for prayer, the posts from our dear Joe to enlighten and strengthen the heart.  I think the list is perfect just as it is.  And Ross - who works so hard - is always in our hearts.  Thank you.
If we start trying to split the list up into 'sections' I believe we will lose the real power of what this list represents.  Free dialogue focused on HaShem and his Torah, and our love for each other.
_________________________________________________________________
Share your memories online with anyone you want.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 05:11:15 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:11:15 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list]
Message-ID: <4A619FC3.1020208@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 18 05:15:10 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:15:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] purpose of our list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W280048593F827EDC59C72C81F0@phx.gbl>


Joe you are wonderful.  Thank you SO much for these words - for all your words.  My heart sings after reading some of the things you write.  I do hope you're starting to feel a little better after a good Shabos rest.  May HaShem bless you greatly and may he bond us in his Love and Grace.  Thank you Joe!  Much much love.  X
_________________________________________________________________
Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 05:48:41 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:48:41 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: Re: private.]
Message-ID: <4A61A889.7040905@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: private.
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 06:04:32 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:04:32 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGIES.
Message-ID: <4A61AC40.9000109@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 07:10:12 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:10:12 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks]
Message-ID: <4A61BBA4.5060103@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 07:22:44 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:22:44 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny
Message-ID: <4A61BE94.1000409@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 07:42:38 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:42:38 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] MatosMasei3.mp3 
Message-ID: <4A61C33E.9090801@westnet.com.au>

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 18 09:13:40 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:13:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: Re: private.]
In-Reply-To: <4A61A889.7040905@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A61A889.7040905@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS22349C3788AF186631A55ABA1F0@phx.gbl>

Sounds great!  If you could wait another thirty minutes, until 1:30, it would probably be much better.  Though I do not usually take care of little ones on Shabbat, I am doing so today, and 1:30 should give me time to have all a little more in order.  Look very forward, as always, to speaking with you.   ~ Pat


From: JOE INDOMENICO 
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 6:48 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: Re: private.]


I try and ring you just after 1pm.
Hope the time suits.

I am currently writing a long post on Yonah for Melanie.

I pray that we can catch up tomorrow.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 18 09:18:22 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:18:22 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGIES.
In-Reply-To: <4A61AC40.9000109@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A61AC40.9000109@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS73CAEE5121F8177F19CCEBA1F0@phx.gbl>

Am laughing, I thought this was sent to me, so replied!!!  Never noticed that it was sent to Dialogue!  Have a nice talk, Joe and Catherine.  Now my apologies to the List!   

Love to you all,  

Pat.


From: JOE INDOMENICO 
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 7:04 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGIES.


Shalom Chaverim and Catherine,

my sincerest apologies for sending this personal email by mistake. :-[ 
I had been trying to ring Catherine after Shabbat.
Catherine you are true to the spirit, even doing overtime.

My apologies for any inconvenience.
It was a genuine mistake.
But good genuine Aussie fellowship.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From doug at dougallen.com  Sat Jul 18 13:22:30 2009
From: doug at dougallen.com (Douglas Allen)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:22:30 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
Message-ID: <6E519B49-F0DC-4577-A19B-F0CC3B1CFBDA@dougallen.com>

I am having some trouble receiving messages.  Every time a message  
from JOE INDOMENICO comes in, it says thatan HTML message gas been  
scrubbed so I don't see his writings.  That happens with some others  
as well.  Is this a setting somewhere in my system or something in  
other's systems, or, or???

Any help will be most appreciated if it helps me avoid calling my own  
personal Help Desk, my Son.

Thanks!!!

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to  
dance in the rain.

Doug Allen
doug at dougallen.com






From mhyde7 at tds.net  Sat Jul 18 13:34:52 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:34:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
In-Reply-To: <6E519B49-F0DC-4577-A19B-F0CC3B1CFBDA@dougallen.com>
References: <6E519B49-F0DC-4577-A19B-F0CC3B1CFBDA@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <4AEAF7CC6240420880C37665F7E1EEEE@TESTPC>

Doug,

It sounds like your e-mail settings are scrubbing out HTML. Therefore your
only receiving messages that are written in text only, thee HTML is still
there your system is just not opening it up. So go into your email options
on your system and set it up to create messages in HTML and to receive
messages in HTML. I think this is a default setting for Microsoutlook.  If
it is another mail program God help you. If it is Gmail... I be praying for
God to help you. :)   If you change your settings to read HTML, it should
open all the old e-mail that came in as HTML. Even if they are in the delete
file or trash.  Some times if they will not open in the delete file you can
move them back to the inbox and then you can read them. Hope this helps, not
100% sure I correct.

Marvin

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Allen
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 2:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss

I am having some trouble receiving messages.  Every time a message  
from JOE INDOMENICO comes in, it says thatan HTML message gas been  
scrubbed so I don't see his writings.  That happens with some others  
as well.  Is this a setting somewhere in my system or something in  
other's systems, or, or???

Any help will be most appreciated if it helps me avoid calling my own  
personal Help Desk, my Son.

Thanks!!!

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to  
dance in the rain.

Doug Allen
doug at dougallen.com




_______________________________________________



From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 14:18:14 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:18:14 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jonah speaks]
In-Reply-To: <4A61BBA4.5060103@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A61BBA4.5060103@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181218q6f0df463g33bed343166f2152@mail.gmail.com>

Melanie,
I see your points and no offense taken.  It is a bit confusing to me.
 HaShem's will and our free will.  Perhaps he would have keep coming to
Jonah until he made the right decision on his own.  He does know the hearts
of men.

Joe,

Love you post.  Glad that you are recovering.

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:10 AM, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

>  *Shavua Tov Melanie and Chaverim.
>
> after a restful Shabbat and time to recover from the flu, I would like to
> add some pertinent information that might shed a deeper meaning to the
> character of Yonah and his mission. As usual the sources are from the
> Midrashim and Zohar.
>
> First of all , the Sefer Yonah Haftara is read during the Mincha /
> Afternoon service on Yom Kippur, a time of Heavenly goodwill that reflects
> repentance and  mercy.
>
> Now for some background information on the prophet himself.
>
> In the days of Eliyahu a severe famine befell Eretz Yisrael. Eliyahu was
> commanded to travel Tzidon, north of Yisrael, where a Jewish widow would
> sustain him. The widow actually shared her last morsel of food with the
> prophet.
> When her son died, Eliyahu was granted the miraculous power to revive him.
> According to the Midrash, this young boy was none other than Yonah.
> Yonah later became a disciple of the great prophet Eliyahu.
> The first time he received the spirit of prophecy was while he attended the
> annual festivities of the water drawing in the Temple during Succot.
> Yonah is mentioned in 2 Kings 14 v 25 as having been sent to King Yeravam
> ben Yoah (Yeravam II ), who ruled over the Kingdom of Yisrael about 70 years
> after Eliyahu.
>
> Before we go more in depth into the message of the Sefer we must first
> assess his mission to Ninevah. Ninevah was the capital of the Assyrian
> empire. So we are talking about the arch enemy of Yisrael.
> To put this into context, it would be the equivalent of asking a Jew to put
> on a T shirt with the slogan "Repent for the day of the L-rd is nigh," and
> walk into Gaza City and ask the Palestinians to repent.
>
> Yonah became saddened when HaShem told him to reprove the Ninevites. As he
> saw it, he would bring much suffering upon his own brethren as a result. He
> reasoned that if the Ninevites did immediate Teshuva, this would evoke
> Heavenly accusations against B'nai Yisrael to whom HaShem sends prophets
> daily , warning them to improve their ways, whose messages are largely
> ignored. Furthermore , he understood that the Assyrians were being warned to
> do Teshuva because HaShem intended to use them as His agents for exiling
> B'nai Yisrael. Thus, he would be directly contributing to his brethren's
> punishment.
>
> Yonah knew that by refusing HaShem, he would be liable to the Heavenly
> death penalty.
> He pondered if HaShem was testing him to see whether he was willing to
> forfeit his life for the sake of his people.
> In fact he was ready to do so rather than bring harm upon them.
> Didn't Moshe plea with HaShem to erase him from the book of life so as to
> atone for the people's sin of the golden calf.
> And when HaShem sent a plague upon B'nai Yisrael , didn't King David
> entreat HaShem to punish him with death and spare B'nai Yisrael.
> Yonah's motive in evading the mission was his overwhelming love for his
> people, which distorted his judgment.
> He was overly concerned with B'nai Yisrael's honour and, as a result,
> failed to realize that fulfilling his mission would not cause a desecration
> of the Name, for in actuality it is to HaShem's honour that He forgives
> those who return to Him and that He sends prophets to warn them.
> Yonah's love for B'nai Yisrael , moreover , blinded him to the fact that
> HaShem's plan for them was the best possible one for them, even though it
> might involve harsh punishment. HaShem consequently sent suffering upon
> Yonah to help him change his view of the situation.
>
> Despite the extraordinary steps of penance taken by the Ninevites, their
> Teshuva was merely superficial. It was typical of anyone who is being
> threatened by a superior force and who loudly proclaims his submission so as
> to be spared.
> This does not motivate him to change his lifestyle permanently .
> Moreover, according to some opinions, the Ninevites Teshuva was one sided ;
> even while they made amends for theft, they still clung persistently to idol
> worship.
> However, HaShem mercifully considered that they had changed their deeds,
> and He annulled His threat in its harsh sense.
> The Heavenly decree had been sealed on account of thievery, and that sin
> had been rectified.
> A mere forty days after seeing that the portended destruction was not
> materializing, the Ninevites returned to their old, evil ways just as Yonah
> had feared.
> HaShem patiently waited, but when they persisted in their wickedness, He
> sent a different prophet, Nachum, forty years later, to once again predict
> their destruction.
> In the meantime, the Assyrians had invaded Yisrael and led its inhabitants
> into exile.They did not act for the sake of Heaven, but rather to satisfy
> their barbaric tendencies. Since they were evil, HaShem's patience with them
> was finally exhausted and, as the prophet Nachum had predicted, the entire
> Assyrian empire, including Ninevah, was decimated by the Babylonians.
>
> There are many Midrashim that relate to the verses of this Sefer.
> Many ideas have already been put forward from previous posts.
>
> I would like to however relate an interesting take from the Zohar that
> gives a more universal theme .
>
> Yonah's voyage on the boat symbolizes a person's sojourn in this world.
> The soul is named "Yonah"
> Yonah is related to Ona ah which in Hebrew means oppression.
> So Yonah - the soul, is oppressed and restricted in the human body.
> While a person travels on his earthly voyage, he may imagine that he is
> free to do as he pleases, with no interference and no repercussions
> regarding his conduct.
> HaShem may suddenly send a "storm" in the form of some affliction or other
> life threatening situation, to make the person realize that his obligation
> is to serve HaShem.
> Often, the person will ignore the message by simply trying "to go to
> sleep."
> Then the "captain," representing the yetzer hatov - good inclination, will
> admonish him, "Don't sleep! , you are being judged in Heaven.Consider, what
> is your mission in this world, are you doing what you were created for? and
> whence do you originate ? Weren't you created from earth and aren't you
> destined to return to it ? Do you have the merits of the forefathers to
> protect you and have you stayed on the path ?"
> If the person will not be roused from his "sleep," the "storm" intensifies.
> He will eventually be thrown overboard , losing his life.
> His soul will be judged and..... depending on his merits, it will survive
> to be "spewed forth" onto dry land at the resurrection of the dead, when the
> righteous will be revived.
> This allegory is certainly relevant to Yom Kippur, a day set aside for
> introspection and moral reckoning for every Jew.
>
> Could Yonah and his mission be somewhat related to Yisrael and its role to
> bring the message to Teshuva to the gentiles?
> Do the mental picture in you mind and interplay with the substitution. You
> might be surprised.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
>  Hi Kim (and the rest of the list),
>
> Thanks for the words on Jonah - you are not alone in the running away or
> the judgement thing!
>
> One thing though - and please don't take offence as you might be right and
> me wrong - or either of us right in parts or neither of us wrong at all
> <grin>, in your response you say:
>
>  *'I think one of our biggest idols is self.  We need to not rely on our
> own understanding, only on HaShem's.  *
> *In His wisdom, '*
>
> Ok I totally agree with the self idol thing - raising ourselves up above
> where we should be is a common human fault and the scriptures are full of us
> doing it and warnings about it that we still have yet to heed and take on
> board - actually Dave on SWW started a great post on Jeremiah 16 that kind
> of got into a discussion on this (which reminds me I still owe Dave a
> response on that over on SWW - I'll get to it Dave, still studying and
> formulating but last I looked you were doing great without my input!).
> I also think this is even more prevalent in this day and age when we have
> convinced ourselves that we can do anything and find the answer to anything
> by ourselves. Our independence that is bolstered by repeated self-help
> articles and motivational speakers, etc. is nothing more than the cult of
> self.
>
> We have forgotten completely the idea's contained in Proverbs 3:5ff
> *'5* Trust in the LORD with all thy heart, and lean not upon thine own
> understanding.
> *6* In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct thy paths.
> *7* Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the LORD, and depart from evil;
> *8* It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
>
> Of course Jonah also missed the mark here! *;0)*
> **
> You then said:
> *'He will choose whom He will choose.  His plan for mankind will prevail
> with or without me.  If I don't follow His path, then He will simply choose
> someone else to do His work.  Had Jonah not gone to Ninevah, He would have
> sent someone else for He knew that they would repent.  This is the biggest
> lesson that I have learned from Jonah...only HaShem knows the hearts of
> men'.*
> **
> In this bit I agree totally with the fact that He will choose whom He will
> - stutterers like Moses, Prodigals like Jonah, Adulterers like David and all
> hosts of others in the middle and outer extremes as well - HaShem can use
> anyone for anything, but most noteably he uses each of us for His own plan.
> I do not thing that his plan for Mankind will prevail without you as given
> you are here you are part of that plan whether you want to be or not - even
> rejecting him wont change that for any of us as far as I see it. As he said
> to Jeremiah:
>
>  *1:5* Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou
> camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee;
>
> and then in *Psalm 139:*
>  *7* Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy
> presence?
> *8* If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in the
> nether-world, behold, Thou art there.
> *9* If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts
> of the sea;
> *10* Even there would Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand would hold me.
> *11* And if I say: 'Surely the darkness shall envelop me, and the light
> about me shall be night';
> *12* Even the darkness is not too dark for Thee, *{N}*
> but the night shineth as the day; the darkness is even as the light.
> *13* For Thou hast made my reins; Thou hast knit me together in my
> mother's womb.
>
>  Yeah maybe he was talking to Jeremiah in the first one, but as the
> psalmist also acknowledges this also holds true to all of us - before we
> were even born we were known and planned for.
> We cannot escape from HaShem.
>
> So I don't agree that if you don't follow his plan he will simply choose
> someone else. I can think of no evidence in the scriptures of HaShem
> choosing someone else to get the job the done (and I might be wrong
> and overlooking something really big here so if so slap me up the head, call
> me stupid and point it out for me! thanks)- He may choose someone to
> complete the job but he doesn't just choose someone else to do the job - in
> fact in pretty much all cases he makes a point of saying them to - 'You,
> it's You, I picked you, yes you - shut up and get on with it - no i'm not
> sending him I chose you and you will and can do it'.
>
> If HaShem would just have chosen someone else why did he chase Jonah down??
> the whole point is that Jonah was the one to do the job. Had Jonah not done
> it I don't think HaShem would have sent someone else because the only one
> for whatever reason that could do it as HaShem wanted it done was Jonah! now
> whether that was a lesson for Jonah to learn or due to his style or
> whatever, the person for the job was Jonah and only Jonah.
>
> It's not just in Jonah we see this theme of being called and set apart for
> the job at hand - we see this repeatedly in the scriptures:
> **
> *1 Sam 3:4* that the LORD called Samuel; and he said: 'Here am I.' *5* And
> he ran unto Eli, and said: 'Here am I; for thou didst call me.' And he said:
> 'I called not; lie down again.' And he went and lay down. *{S}* *6* And
> the LORD called yet again Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and
> said: 'Here am I; for thou didst call me.' And he answered: 'I called not,
> my son; lie down again.' *7* Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither
> was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.
>
>  *Jeremiah 1:5*
> *Ezekiel 1:3*
> *Exodus 3:11*
> and lots more!
>
> So sorry but no, had Jonah not gone then I don't believe HaShem would have
> just chosen someone else and sent them instead. It was Jonah or no-one.
> That's not the same as worshipping at the Cult of Self because Jonah nor
> none of the others are that type of self orientated people as we are today.
> You see whereas we would totally want the job and go for the Kudos of it,
> allowing ourselves to become maybe a little big headed or lapping up the
> adulation or negative vibes - and yes part of the cult of self is doing
> ourselves down all the while, its a reverse psychology thing hence the self
> help books and misery true story books that help us feel good about how
> though life is bad and I have a bad self image really I am pretty good and
> special because I have this issue that sets me apart, etc., etc. - that was
> not their psychology.
> They did not want the job, heck Jonah runs and though the others don't
> initially see themselves as worthy or up to the task they do it anyway
> because its what they are called to do - a different psychology to that of
> cult of self!
>
> So would that mean that Ninevah, though so ripe for repentance, would have
> lost out on it has Jonah not gone? Well there's the interesting question -
> Would HaShem not have pity and mercy anyway given he already knew the hearts
> of the people of Ninevah? Does HaShem really need the Prophets or us to do
> his work? Is it the action or the heart that changes things?
> Interesting isn't it? I know what I think on this one but would love to
> hear what others think.
>
> Okay hope that all made some kind of sense and thanks Kim for adding to the
> discussion and for really making me think some more! and again I re-iterate
> I hope you don't take any offence at this as that's not my aim, i'm just
> sharing my thoughts on your thoughts and my thoughts are just as likely to
> be wrong! Please feel free to call me on anything I have said - and anyone
> else too!
>
> Best
>
> Melanie
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Jul 18 14:42:18 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:42:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Mattote/Masei
Message-ID: <BC3A3FA7-64A1-4711-8B2B-83FDEEDE6DB8@me.com>

The Sabbath teaching for Mattote and Masei are up on the web for  
downloading at your convenience for those that are interested. Shabbat  
Shalom!

www.rootsoffaith.org

Sent from my iPhone


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 14:42:50 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:42:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Reading Everyman's Talmud and the purpose of this list
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181242o1f1a0cebi291fae7d3925ef02@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,
Firstly, I would like to apologize if I disrespected Ross.  That is the last
thing that I want to do. My opinion is that we do need more meatier
discussions.  If the posts were primarily dialogue concerning HaShem, Torah,
and Israel with other topics sprinkled in, we would be in line with the
purpose of this list and have a good balance.

I am beginning research on the Talmud.  I checked out Everyman's Talmud from
the library yesterday.  In the introduction -page li- I found something that
seems relevant to our discussion:

Speaking of the Schools of study:  *Teachers and pupils allowed themselves
to digress from the point under examination and wander off at will into
every conceivable kind of topic.  They relieved the tedium of a keen debate
on an legal theme by taking up a lighter subject.  They pured forth for
mutual edification the treasures stored in their memories relating to
history, legend, folklore, medicine, astronomy, botany, zoology, and  a host
of other matters.  Not only the sharp battle of wits but likewise the
ordinary conversation which passed with the Academies all are vividly
portrayed in the Talmud.*
*
*
As I stated, the Talmud is new to me.  If the above is incorrect, please
feel free to straighten me out.  If however it is correct, I feel that this
is a good example to follow.

Love to you all,
Kim
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 14:47:00 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:47:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] ROI KLEIN. PETITION.
In-Reply-To: <4A5FB02E.4090400@westnet.com.au>
References: <4A5FB02E.4090400@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181247r2f655c8bl8f8546530388d731@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for sending this, Joe
Kim

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:56 PM, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

>  *Shalom Chaverim,
>
> I have just been sent this disturbing email from my mate Dror.
> For those who do not know the story behind Roi Klein please watch this
> incredible video.
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAtif91gI8
>
> *Now they want to destroy his widow's house in the settlement of E'li.
> Please sign this petition to the Israeli Government.
> It would be a sign of support from all over the world and would show our
> solidarity.
>
> For those who want to sign.
> Scroll down and you will see the box.
> The first line Shem Male' or Full Name.- required.
> The second line is Gil or Age - not required.
> The last line is Eir / Yeshuv or City/ Country- required.
> You will see a red stamp - click to send.
> *
> http://www.atzuma.co.il/petition/be770/1/1000/
>
> *Please support this drive. You will be helping a widow and orphans.
>
> Shabbat Shalom
> JOE.
> *
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 18 15:06:11 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:06:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Reading Everyman's Talmud and the purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907181242o1f1a0cebi291fae7d3925ef02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181242o1f1a0cebi291fae7d3925ef02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D622AF7C-FD07-4A26-86A4-736A6B6CC678@earthlink.net>



Seriously I think if more people write it will all balance out. Thanks  
fir this Kim.

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:42 PM, kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Firstly, I would like to apologize if I disrespected Ross.  That is  
> the last thing that I want to do. My opinion is that we do need more  
> meatier discussions.  If the posts were primarily dialogue  
> concerning HaShem, Torah, and Israel with other topics sprinkled in,  
> we would be in line with the purpose of this list and have a good  
> balance.
>
> I am beginning research on the Talmud.  I checked out Everyman's  
> Talmud from the library yesterday.  In the introduction -page li- I  
> found something that seems relevant to our discussion:
>
> Speaking of the Schools of study:  Teachers and pupils allowed  
> themselves to digress from the point under examination and wander  
> off at will into every conceivable kind of topic.  They relieved the  
> tedium of a keen debate on an legal theme by taking up a lighter  
> subject.  They pured forth for mutual edification the treasures  
> stored in their memories relating to history, legend, folklore,  
> medicine, astronomy, botany, zoology, and  a host of other matters.   
> Not only the sharp battle of wits but likewise the ordinary  
> conversation which passed with the Academies all are vividly  
> portrayed in the Talmud.
>
> As I stated, the Talmud is new to me.  If the above is incorrect,  
> please feel free to straighten me out.  If however it is correct, I  
> feel that this is a good example to follow.
>
> Love to you all,
> Kim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Jul 18 15:18:31 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:18:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <F78026EF-8D9E-4E20-802E-97F8D6074BE6@me.com>

First of all...Shabbat Shalom to all! I just finished my weekly  
teaching on the two final Torah readings from the 4th book of the  
Torah - BeMidbar or Numbers. I had a blast teaching it and hope that  
you can find the time to listen to it.

Just for the record, it is almost impossible to offend me. Perhaps it  
was the military training, or my upbringing, but I rarely am upset by  
the words or even deeds of others. So rest assured that I did not get  
offended that people had or have different views. This is THE point of  
the dialogue.

I did however have a different vision for the dialogue than the shape  
that it has taken on. What I have discovered is that people are so  
alone and have nowhere to turn for fellowship and this list began to  
fill that void in people's lives. As I saw that this began to take  
shape, I decided to give people what they wanted and even needed. Some  
have recently described this as a "living room". In the days when many  
of us were in Church, it filled this void. One could sit with other  
people and share what they are going through and find support from one  
another. We could request prayer for things that we were struggling  
with and find the love of concerned individuals that soon became like  
family.

Reluctantly at the urging of younger people (my kids and Dave and  
Sherry's kids - Ben in particular) I was encouraged to set up a  
myspace account for Rootsoffaith. This did not seem to be exactly what  
I was looking for, but I could tell that somehow there must be a way  
to use modern technology to provide people a place where they could  
become closer and I could still have a mailing list to debate and  
discuss the great religious questions of our time.

At some point I was introduced to a place on the web where one could  
set up a community much like Facebook or MySpace, but catered to a  
certain audience. I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This  
at last I thought would give people a place to share with others. It  
allowed people to make their own page, join groups which interested  
them or even make their own group. Some have taken advantage of this  
while others have not.

I just know that so many of you have things to say. We are all  
different and Torah living does indeed encompass all aspects of our  
lives; politics etc. I wanted to provide you all with a place where  
you could be yourself and still be part of the family. That is what  
SWW is intended to be.

Kim started a group for prayer. This thrills me. I do strongly believe  
in prayer and have hopes that people will post their prayer needs on  
that forum so that people literally from around the world can log in  
and see these requests and pray.

I did not intend, nor did any others to imply that prayer and these  
other discussions are not important or irrelevant. The point was that  
there is a place for these important things.

My job is very demanding. I send and receive hundreds of emails each  
week at work. To handle this volume and then to try and do the same  
and keep up with a similar volume here on this list is honestly more  
than I can do. I, like many of you end up prioritizing my time. When  
someone's needed prayer gets buried in a long list of emails, it  
sometimes gets lost. I like the idea of doing this on the SWW so that  
they are nicely organized. When I get ready to pray, I can simply go  
to this site and see what I need to pray for. When I am interested in  
watching various political issues develop, I could go to the page on  
SWW where some of you who are really up on this have done the research  
for me and read all I want.

For me, I feel led to provide people who are coming from a Christian  
background, a place where they can ask the tough questions. This is  
what I hope the dialogue list can become. I want people to be able to  
challenge my view of the messiah, or of the nature of God.

The list has in many ways become a place where people can post their  
views, political or otherwise - clearly not the original intent of  
this list. On the other hand I do not consider these views unimportant.

I believe in order and have thought of several ways to bring order to  
our common quest. By establishing different lists and sites I have  
made strong attempts to help everyone. I would just encourage people  
to make use of these tools in the most efficient way possible.

Joe has some incredible insights from Rabbinical writings. I would  
encourage him to create a group on SWW for teachings from the sages.  
These wise words will often be very appropriate here as well. When we  
are discussing various biblical questions they might be used to  
support a view.  There are others who often send in commentaries on  
Israeli politics. Create a group on SWW.

Again, I am not trying to squash a good thing. I am simply trying to  
organize things where people can find and follow them if they so desire.

I will not shut down the list, nor will I come across with a heavy  
hand. If someone has a need and wants to express that need on the list  
then do so. I am just trying to help.

Don't get mad. Rather, find ways to help me make this experience truly  
beneficial for all to join in as they feel led.

I hope that this made sense. I have grown to love all of you - and  
despite our dysfunction I feel that we are fast becoming a global  
family. Every family has its issues. We can work through these things.

My love and shalom to all of you, Ross


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 16:44:05 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

Kim
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 18:20:06 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:20:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <F78026EF-8D9E-4E20-802E-97F8D6074BE6@me.com>
References: <F78026EF-8D9E-4E20-802E-97F8D6074BE6@me.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181620i10aaec8mf8a79c23c3266c48@mail.gmail.com>

You have my full support, Ross.  Let's get back to the dialogue.
Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> First of all...Shabbat Shalom to all! I just finished my weekly teaching on
> the two final Torah readings from the 4th book of the Torah - BeMidbar or
> Numbers. I had a blast teaching it and hope that you can find the time to
> listen to it.
>
> Just for the record, it is almost impossible to offend me. Perhaps it was
> the military training, or my upbringing, but I rarely am upset by the words
> or even deeds of others. So rest assured that I did not get offended that
> people had or have different views. This is THE point of the dialogue.
>
> I did however have a different vision for the dialogue than the shape that
> it has taken on. What I have discovered is that people are so alone and have
> nowhere to turn for fellowship and this list began to fill that void in
> people's lives. As I saw that this began to take shape, I decided to give
> people what they wanted and even needed. Some have recently described this
> as a "living room". In the days when many of us were in Church, it filled
> this void. One could sit with other people and share what they are going
> through and find support from one another. We could request prayer for
> things that we were struggling with and find the love of concerned
> individuals that soon became like family.
>
> Reluctantly at the urging of younger people (my kids and Dave and Sherry's
> kids - Ben in particular) I was encouraged to set up a myspace account for
> Rootsoffaith. This did not seem to be exactly what I was looking for, but I
> could tell that somehow there must be a way to use modern technology to
> provide people a place where they could become closer and I could still have
> a mailing list to debate and discuss the great religious questions of our
> time.
>
> At some point I was introduced to a place on the web where one could set up
> a community much like Facebook or MySpace, but catered to a certain
> audience. I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This at last I
> thought would give people a place to share with others. It allowed people to
> make their own page, join groups which interested them or even make their
> own group. Some have taken advantage of this while others have not.
>
> I just know that so many of you have things to say. We are all different
> and Torah living does indeed encompass all aspects of our lives; politics
> etc. I wanted to provide you all with a place where you could be yourself
> and still be part of the family. That is what SWW is intended to be.
>
> Kim started a group for prayer. This thrills me. I do strongly believe in
> prayer and have hopes that people will post their prayer needs on that forum
> so that people literally from around the world can log in and see these
> requests and pray.
>
> I did not intend, nor did any others to imply that prayer and these other
> discussions are not important or irrelevant. The point was that there is a
> place for these important things.
>
> My job is very demanding. I send and receive hundreds of emails each week
> at work. To handle this volume and then to try and do the same and keep up
> with a similar volume here on this list is honestly more than I can do. I,
> like many of you end up prioritizing my time. When someone's needed prayer
> gets buried in a long list of emails, it sometimes gets lost. I like the
> idea of doing this on the SWW so that they are nicely organized. When I get
> ready to pray, I can simply go to this site and see what I need to pray for.
> When I am interested in watching various political issues develop, I could
> go to the page on SWW where some of you who are really up on this have done
> the research for me and read all I want.
>
> For me, I feel led to provide people who are coming from a Christian
> background, a place where they can ask the tough questions. This is what I
> hope the dialogue list can become. I want people to be able to challenge my
> view of the messiah, or of the nature of God.
>
> The list has in many ways become a place where people can post their views,
> political or otherwise - clearly not the original intent of this list. On
> the other hand I do not consider these views unimportant.
>
> I believe in order and have thought of several ways to bring order to our
> common quest. By establishing different lists and sites I have made strong
> attempts to help everyone. I would just encourage people to make use of
> these tools in the most efficient way possible.
>
> Joe has some incredible insights from Rabbinical writings. I would
> encourage him to create a group on SWW for teachings from the sages. These
> wise words will often be very appropriate here as well. When we are
> discussing various biblical questions they might be used to support a view.
>  There are others who often send in commentaries on Israeli politics. Create
> a group on SWW.
>
> Again, I am not trying to squash a good thing. I am simply trying to
> organize things where people can find and follow them if they so desire.
>
> I will not shut down the list, nor will I come across with a heavy hand. If
> someone has a need and wants to express that need on the list then do so. I
> am just trying to help.
>
> Don't get mad. Rather, find ways to help me make this experience truly
> beneficial for all to join in as they feel led.
>
> I hope that this made sense. I have grown to love all of you - and despite
> our dysfunction I feel that we are fast becoming a global family. Every
> family has its issues. We can work through these things.
>
> My love and shalom to all of you, Ross
> _______________________________________________
>
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From sandrainglis at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jul 18 18:52:48 2009
From: sandrainglis at optusnet.com.au (Sandra)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:52:48 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
Message-ID: <2FC1FD3C787049A194188976054557B8@ownerPC>

Shalom all,

 I have the same problem. I just checked my options and found my security setting is set to block images and other external content in HTML e-mail. Is it safe to allow this? Why has my security blocked it and will allowing this fix the problem or is there something else I need to do? I noticed there is an option to read all messages in plain text would checking this option solve the problem? If any one can answer these questions I would be grateful for the help.
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From webhulon at msn.com  Sat Jul 18 19:54:17 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:54:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>


Shalom,

 

It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.


There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.


Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.


The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.


Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.


Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.


Kim
_________________________________________________________________
Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 20:23:19 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>

Web,
Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>  Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
> monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
> for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
> taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never
> saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
> He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
> of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
> people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
> thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
> to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
> the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
> get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD
> of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
> the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in
> every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a
> pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of
> hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
> there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
> anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
> sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
> not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> ------------------------------
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
> now.<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 20:27:34 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:27:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
In-Reply-To: <2FC1FD3C787049A194188976054557B8@ownerPC>
References: <2FC1FD3C787049A194188976054557B8@ownerPC>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181827h71919898qb08264988c66dd6d@mail.gmail.com>

Sandra,
If you have a good virus program, allowing HTML is safe.  It will slow down
your computer if it is older or if you are not using a high speed
connection.  I use g-mail.  I use full html, but images are blocked until I
click to allow them.

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Sandra <sandrainglis at optusnet.com.au>wrote:

>  Shalom all,
>
>  I have the same problem. I just checked my options and found my security
> setting is set to block images and other external content in HTML e-mail. Is
> it safe to allow this? Why has my security blocked it and will allowing this
> fix the problem or is there something else I need to do? I noticed there is
> an option to read all messages in plain text would checking this option
> solve the problem? If any one can answer these questions I would be grateful
> for the help.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From webhulon at msn.com  Sat Jul 18 21:26:21 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:26:21 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl> 
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>


Kim,

"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time of the rebuke, and will again be, honored among the nations.

Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web,


Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  


Kim


On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 


The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.


Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.


Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.


Kim


Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
_______________________________________________



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out.
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 18 21:46:28 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>

Web,
I agree with your first statement: *I**t seems to me that YHWH is reminding
the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.*  Further
on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed among the
nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a question
concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to
offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states
that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to
sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the
Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to
YHVH.

I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>  Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
> monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
> for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
> taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never
> saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
> He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
> of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
> people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
> thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
> to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
> the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
> get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD
> of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
> the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in
> every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a
> pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of
> hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
> there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
> anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
> sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
> not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> ------------------------------
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
> now.<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Sat Jul 18 22:03:05 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:03:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BD4392C7D9204AC4BC4D3C9F162A1383@TESTPC>

I would like to point out that jethro did not offer sacrifice to YHVH. He
offered it to elohim.  I believe there is a difference in how this is
understood. If you look at the verse quoted you will see that although
Jethro recognized YHVH as above the other elohim, he still sacrificed to
elohim and not YHVH.  Which I think,  this subtle difference in the gentiles
understanding is why we need Israel and the Jews if we want salvation. 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 9:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Web,

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
now.
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1> 


_______________________________________________

 

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 19 06:47:13 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:47:13 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <SNT108-W49882E44460CC7601BCE6EC81C0@phx.gbl>


I understand your thoughts Ross and stand in awe of your commitment to our group and attempts to help our learning and bring us together. You have been an incredible example of living faith - thank you, you are a wonderful teacher and example.  I think you ave done a remarkable job in organizing the deferring subjects on SWW.  Kim posted such a powerful lessons from the Talmud.  I think there is real danger in trying to organize dialogue - this list in particular - because i think when we try and organize things in a structured way, we automatically have to 'edit' or categorize our thoughts to areas where they are 'set apart' from our everyday conversation.  I understand it may not have been your initial vision to have dialogue evolve in the way it has, but lets not try and change what is such an important witness to the love of HaShem. I am only speaking personally here - but I NEED Joe's rabbinical posts AND the birthday messages as part of this dialogue list.  PLEASE don't let us change.  If we let the conversation flow freely surely we can encompass ALL needs of our dialogue family? Just my thoughts.  please forgive if I'm wrong.  I don't get to read the SWW each day as much as I read my emails from dialogue - i cleave to this list as I never thought possible.  Catherine x
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons.
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 19 06:57:04 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:57:04 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <SNT108-W6408943B854825AA6F4FA2C81C0@phx.gbl>


Sorry to post again on this topic, but I just wanted to add something that follows on from what Marvin said.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that when i get home I don't want to go into different rooms to discuss different topics, I want to stay in the same room.  That way I hear things I would never usually have chosen to study, and I join in conversations that take me to places I never would have walked.  It all happens in the one room.  Sorry to go on - it's just been such a blessing to be a part of this group. I love you all.  Catherine
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 19 07:09:10 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:09:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
Message-ID: <SNT108-W12360A8C2ABF3ABE5AAD42C81C0@phx.gbl>


Great to see you Sandra!  You've been in my prayers and thoughts.  I hope things are going OK with you and your family.  I pray that you stay strong and well.
(I read all the messages online, and have the same problem.  In other words I go to the main dialogue website to read, and also have to click on the HTML links to see the messages.  Joe's posts appear with little symbols like (br) all over the place which make them hard to read.  I'd love to know how to solve the problem when reading online.)
_________________________________________________________________
Share your memories online with anyone you want.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 19 08:45:12 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:45:12 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6D05E400-70E9-4EAA-98AD-4672571D0995@earthlink.net>

Hebrew verbs, or even the lack thereof, are among the most fascinating  
aspects the Hebrew language. In English we have our six tenses  
(present, past, future, imperfect, perfect, past perfect) while Hebrew  
has its two: perfect and imperfect--often misunderstood as "present"  
and "past."

However,  it is the case that one can leave out the verb entirely and  
then the tense and meaning is implied by context, rather than stated.  
For example one could say: "The girl in the room" which could mean she  
is in fact there, or will be--again, the context will tell.

In the case of Malachi, which is surely one of the most fascinating  
books of the Hebrew Bible--and remember, it is also the last "Koh Amar  
YHVH" WORD that we have from Yehovah, I lean toward the idea that 1:11  
is projecting ahead, to the far future, the goal of the Abrahamic  
Plan, and making the point that the tiny remnant of Judah that have  
returned to the Land, or better, the tiny "city state" of Judah, under  
Persian jurisdiction, were falling far far below the mission and  
calling that was their very reason of being--being a light to the  
nations. The Malachi scroll as a whole continues that message, and of  
course ends with the chilling verse--lest I come and strike the land/ 
earth with Cherem! Sobering words...

James




On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Web Hulon wrote:

> Kim,
> "Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah"  
> used there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context  
> there is probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe  
> that this would be a preferable translation.  Because we could take  
> it either way, I don't think that we have a problem with taking it  
> both ways.  His Name was at the time of the rebuke, and will again  
> be, honored among the nations.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
>
> Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that  
> the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?   
> His name has always been revered among the nations and will continue  
> to be.
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
> Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not  
> have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's  
> father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with  
> YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to  
> YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer  
> an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for  
> Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of  
> the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who  
> has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the  
> very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and  
> other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the  
> elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship  
> YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage  
> everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
>
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the  
> LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from  
> the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the  
> nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are  
> offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among  
> the nations, say the LORD of hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.   
> Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different  
> meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't  
> remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that  
> HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart  
> to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper  
> sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.  
> Try it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest  
> sports videos. Check it  
> out._______________________________________________

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From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Jul 19 09:10:46 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:10:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BD4392C7D9204AC4BC4D3C9F162A1383@TESTPC>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<BD4392C7D9204AC4BC4D3C9F162A1383@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W26AD26BEA2152A7CCAE0AAC51C0@phx.gbl>


Shalom, 

That is a very valid point.  Would you like to expound more on the subtle difference?  I would certainly like to hear it.


Web 


 


From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:03:05 -0400









I would like to point out that jethro did not offer sacrifice to YHVH. He offered it to elohim.  I believe there is a difference in how this is understood. If you look at the verse quoted you will see that although Jethro recognized YHVH as above the other elohim, he still sacrificed to elohim and not YHVH.  Which I think,  this subtle difference in the gentiles understanding is why we need Israel and the Jews if we want salvation. 
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 9:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
 
Web,

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim
 



Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.

_______________________________________________
 
_________________________________________________________________
NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone.  Click here.
http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009
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From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Jul 19 09:37:11 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:37:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl> 
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>


Shalom Kim,

This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:


Exod 8:25-27
25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to your Elohim in the land."
26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. If we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."


The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with Yosef.

 

There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with, but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 


I agree with your first statement: It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a question concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to YHVH.   


I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.


Kim 


On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 


The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.


Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.


Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.


Kim


Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
_______________________________________________



_________________________________________________________________
NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone.  Click here.
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From beartrm at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 11:17:17 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny
In-Reply-To: <4A61BE94.1000409@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <164926.58887.qm@web33302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom Joe,
? Once again you have shared a wonderful insight into the Jewish destiny.? Just when I get frustrated and even angry with all that is happening in America and worldwide this video brings it all back to where it should be (in the hands of HaShem).? Thank you so much for sharing this video with me.?? Susan

--- On Sat, 7/18/09, JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:


From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Saturday, July 18, 2009, 7:22 AM


Shavua Tov Chaverim,

One of the best views you will see on the present scenario in Yisrael.
Absolutely uplifting.
http://wejew.com/media/5202/Tuesday_Night_Live_in_Jerusalem_-_Jewish_Destiny/

Thank you HaShem with these words of encouragement.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________



      
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Jul 19 11:17:52 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:17:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
References: <2FC1FD3C787049A194188976054557B8@ownerPC>
Message-ID: <D166D7798DAE44D28F99792A16E80F7B@davesbook>

I have this box (security setting) unchecked and I have absolutely no problems receiving mail.....I suggest un-checking this box, click apply and see.  

I do not recommend having "loose security" for anyone on this list.....but I may add that I have all my settings to allow any and all mail.  I use common sense in that if I am concerned about an e-mail I do not open it until I do a scan on it.  But I do recommend that one look at these settings in the 'tools' menu.

I use outlook express.
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sandra 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 6:52 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss


  Shalom all,

   I have the same problem. I just checked my options and found my security setting is set to block images and other external content in HTML e-mail. Is it safe to allow this? Why has my security blocked it and will allowing this fix the problem or is there something else I need to do? I noticed there is an option to read all messages in plain text would checking this option solve the problem? If any one can answer these questions I would be grateful for the help.


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From dsdj7 at aol.com  Sun Jul 19 11:22:44 2009
From: dsdj7 at aol.com (dsdj7 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:22:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W49882E44460CC7601BCE6EC81C0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W49882E44460CC7601BCE6EC81C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CBD6A447D58C70-250-172A@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom

?I have only been a reader up to this point and only had joined to be updated on info and pics from the archeological dig that was recently done in Yisrael with James Tabor's group.

When reading Ross's order and organization to the list I was considering joining in at times when the discussion of topics were of interest. After all, a beginning of community cyber order. But everyone always has their own agenda.

Having community begins with Torah, Loving YHWH with all your heart, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. In order to do this we must keep the shabbat with actual people in a actual community. In community there needs to be order with someone willing to be responsible for the order.

I understand where everyone is coming from, without details, I've been there. Now our family are in a much more complete place. Living, learning, understanding Torah in a community of people.

YWH has order, His mitzvah?(commands) and mishpat?(right rulings) are precise, something we needed after Adam and Hawwah??(Eve). In Bereshith -Genesis 3:12, when the man answered YHWH?saying; 
The woman whom You gave?me to be with, she gave me of the tree and I ate. 1st?he blames YHWH, then speaks only about himself (selfishness) then blames the woman (lack of responsibility) 
and?I ate it?(self centeredness)?not we ate (lack of community)

When YHWH allowed Moshe (Moses) to?speak to the people the mitzvah (commands) and the mishpat?(right ruling), we=2
0said (....we shall hear and we shall do.... Debarim-Deuteronomy 5:27)?obviously we don't do?so well with authority.
In verse 29: YHWH said; Oh, that they would have such a heart in them, to fear ME and to guard (put a hedge of protection)?all My commands always,so that it might be well with them and with their children forever! (YHWH so desired this for us) we need to remember and be accountable for what we say

YHWH made us to be a qodesh?(set apart) people with set apart thoughts, together.
?If we order our thoughts by learning the basics,
Loving?YHWH with all of our hearts, minds and strength and loving our neighbors as ourselves, together.
?We would most certainly think before we speak or type and send. 


Shalom,

Sharown

-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, Jul 19, 2009 6:47 am
Subject: [Dialogue] The List


I understand your thoughts Ross and stand in awe of your?commitment?to our group and attempts to help our learning and bring us together. You have been an incredible example of living faith - thank you, you are a wonderful teacher and example. ?I think you ave done a remarkable job in?organizing?the?deferring?subjects on SWW. ? 
Kim posted such a powerful lessons from the?Talmud. ?I think there is real danger in trying to?organize?dialogue - this list in particular - because i think when we try and?organize?things in a structured way, we0automatically?have?to 'edit' or?categorize?our thoughts to areas where they are 'set apart' from our everyday conversation. ?I understand it may not have been your initial?vision?to?have?dialogue evolve in the way it has, but lets not try and change what is such an?important?witness to the love of HaShem. I am only speaking personally here - but I NEED?Joe's?rabbinical posts AND the birthday messages as part of this dialogue list. ?PLEASE don't let us change. ?If we let the conversation flow freely surely we can?encompass?ALL needs of our dialogue family? Just my thoughts. ?please forgive if I'm wrong. ?I don't get to read the SWW each day as much as I read my emails from dialogue - i cleave to this list as I never thought possible. ?Catherine x

Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons. Get Them Now = 


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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Jul 19 11:40:14 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:40:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
References: <E1MPgtC-0007qn-Nm@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net><5CE9F830E14A4C919AC473E78680C17D@davesbook>
	<8CBD1F5F767FE92-1718-DA0@WEBMAIL-MC18.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <813EED8200C04673BDBFD0151D1A167D@davesbook>

Ralph,

Sorry i took so long to respond to your Question.  The short answer is that I have most of the speakers edited and formated to post on line.....but have not completed a dvd of the conference.  (May I get a fire under my seat to do this!!!!)  This is important for me to do.......

Also the South Carilina group were shooting video and I have a copy of this work!   

dave
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: rebuntyn at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction


  Dave, are all the speakers portions from the April UIWU conference available now? 
  Please advise. Thanks, Ralph 


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:14 pm
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction


  http://rootsoffaith.org/?s=jots+and+tittles&search= 
  dave 
  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Runyon" <goodears at jps.net> 
  To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
  Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:01 PM 
  Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction 
   
  > 
  > Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and 
  > Tittles"? I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the > Enlarged 
  > letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the 
  > TaNaCH. 
  > 
  > Shalom, 
  > Ron Runyon 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > _______________________________________________ 
  >  
  _______________________________________________ 



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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Sun Jul 19 12:01:15 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:01:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
References: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011001ca0892$87258170$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

Sounds good for me Cody. It also would cut down on duplicates, hopefully. Dick L
.Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list


              Just wanted to chime in.  Maybe it would be a good idea to create another mailing list.  


              This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots of faith list, and those who are can be a member of both.  Everyone wins this way.


              I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about 5 minutes.  I named it the Living Room.


              If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any time.  All I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on the new list. Or, someone else could create one.  


              Just a thought.


              Cody 
       




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From rebuntyn at aol.com  Sun Jul 19 11:57:33 2009
From: rebuntyn at aol.com (rebuntyn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:57:33 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction
In-Reply-To: <813EED8200C04673BDBFD0151D1A167D@davesbook>
References: <E1MPgtC-0007qn-Nm@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net><5CE9F830E14A4C919AC473E78680C17D@davesbook><8CBD1F5F767FE92-1718-DA0@WEBMAIL-MC18.sysops.aol.com>
	<813EED8200C04673BDBFD0151D1A167D@davesbook>
Message-ID: <8CBD6A9254B2A09-E90-2D59@MBLK-D29.sysops.aol.com>

Dave, thanks for your reply. One of my reasons for asking was I wanted to know if my presentation was available on line yet. My son and daughter keep asking to see it. There's nothing like your kids critique of something you've done, huh?
Just let me know whenever.
Thanks, Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, Jul 19, 2009 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction



Ralph,

?

Sorry i took so long to respond to your Question.? The short answer is that I have most of the speakers edited and formated to post on line.....but have?not completed a dvd of the conference.? (May I get a fire under my seat to do this!!!!)? This is important for me to do.......

?

Also the?South Carilina group were shooting video and?I have a copy of this work!? ?

?

dave


----- Original Message -----

From: rebuntyn at aol.com 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:24 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction



Dave,?are all the speakers portions from the April UIWU conference available now??
Please advise. Thanks, Ralph?


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2009 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Need direction


http://rootsoffaith.org/?s=jots+and+tittles&search=?
dave?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Runyon" <goodears at jps.net>?
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>?
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:01 PM?
Subject: [Dialogue] Need direction?
?
>?
> Can anyone direct me to some teachings or writings on the "Jots and?
> Tittles"? I am looking for info from a Hebrew perspective on the > Enlarged?
> letters and the reduced letters and the dots above certain words in the?
> TaNaCH.?
>?
> Shalom,?
> Ron Runyon?
>?
>?
>?
> _______________________________________________?
> ?
_______________________________________________?



Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! 




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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 12:23:26 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:23:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny
Message-ID: <200307.93570.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I want to thank you as well for sending this, Joe.
Both Ari and Jeremy are part of Israel World TV. ?They are actually on our promo video as field reporters.?
Thanks again,
Cody




      
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From cormary at mts.net  Sun Jul 19 13:18:06 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:18:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny
In-Reply-To: <200307.93570.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <200307.93570.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A63635E.8090207@mts.net>

Same here, Joe

It is interesting I notice, and I have noticed this other times on 
Tuesday night live. one of the musicians, the one in the back with the 
banjo, was our armed tour guide in Israel. This tour was not a normal 
tour either. And the last 10 days I was there in 04, I helped him add on 
to his caravan. He was living in extreme poverty, yet he is a great 
musician. Especially with his banjo.

I am always lifted up, by Tuesday Night live, both Ari and Jeremy are 
such real examples of simchah. (joy)

Cornie



Cody wrote:
> I want to thank you as well for sending this, Joe.
>
> Both Ari and Jeremy are part of Israel World TV.  They are actually on 
> our promo video as field reporters. 
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Cody
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   

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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 13:42:36 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:42:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W49882E44460CC7601BCE6EC81C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <577049.58374.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Shalom All,
?
I think the lot of us check our email on a fairly regular basis. At work it is easier to quickly jump on and check if something needs our attention. I do not work outside the home but always check my email first. I will leisurely check SWW forum. The email dialogue is a much faster pace and more shoot from the hip. I take my time on SWW when I really want to study and think things out. If your at work , pressed for time and checking your emails will you open a post titled Malachai 1:1 or one titled HELP!?
Think back to the day that Catherine found out her dad was ill. She was crying out for help. She needed love, comfort and encouragement NOW not at the end of the day when we went to SWW forum and opened up the group on prayer requests. Yes she contiuned to need our prayers but this was a live NOW thing. What if that day I didn't check the group on prayer requests because my interest was on the Torah section? What is meatier in Torah Study than Loving Hashem and Loving our brother or sister and truly living Torah? During her distress she opened up to us something personal about herself because she thought this was the reason her dad was suffering. This was real at the minute emotions she was struggling with. This was the place she felt she could turn for help and that it was safe and secure for her to do so and that she would get quick response.
?
Susie

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 4:47 AM




#yiv101487894 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv101487894 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I understand your thoughts Ross and stand in awe of your?commitment?to our group and attempts to help our learning and bring us together. You have been an incredible example of living faith - thank you, you are a wonderful teacher and example. ?I think you ave done a remarkable job in?organizing?the?deferring?subjects on SWW. ?
Kim posted such a powerful lessons from the?Talmud. ?I think there is real danger in trying to?organize?dialogue - this list in particular - because i think when we try and?organize?things in a structured way, we?automatically?have?to 'edit' or?categorize?our thoughts to areas where they are 'set apart' from our everyday conversation. ?I understand it may not have been your initial?vision?to?have?dialogue evolve in the way it has, but lets not try and change what is such an?important?witness to the love of HaShem. I am only speaking personally here - but I NEED?Joe's?rabbinical posts AND the birthday messages as part of this dialogue list. ?PLEASE don't let us change. ?If we let the conversation flow freely surely we can?encompass?ALL needs of our dialogue family? Just my thoughts. ?please forgive if I'm wrong. ?I don't get to read the SWW each day as much as I read my emails from dialogue - i cleave to this list as I never
 thought possible. ?Catherine x


Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons. Get Them Now 
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From cormary at mts.net  Sun Jul 19 16:36:01 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:36:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <577049.58374.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <577049.58374.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A6391C1.6000106@mts.net>

right on Susie

That is the way I see it too, Susie. I am working on my book, than when  
I get weary I check my e-mails with one click, and here is your 
encouraging note. I will not try to interfere, if this is not the intent 
of this dialogue groups creater. I might just have to check myself out 
of this group if that would have to change. My study time is mostly not 
on the Internet. But I have learned so much on this list just as it is. 
I would really miss it to be different. Of course who knows, I might 
have a thing or two to learn again.

One thing that I learned when I first started to get acquainted  with 
you all. One of the first things I caught myself with was how self 
righteous or sef centered I had been all along, so much just being on my 
own. I was not really challenged much on my own. There seemed to be 
others who were challenged too. Once in a while we had to get reminded 
of our brashness or disorderedness.  We could have been hurting each 
other or some one in particular, but there was such a tender desire to 
be felt in the whole group that we want to treat each other with 
respect. And at least to agree to disagree with one another where we 
don't see eye to eye.  My view does not always have to be right. I 
thought that was a very good exercise for me.

It bothers me a little the way I expressed myself the other day when I 
compared my own dear wife with Yasser Arafat, a terrorist. And sent it 
to the list. I want to be understood, for those who don't know the 
natural symptoms of the illness of bipolar. ( Please don't get me wrong, 
Rabbi Shalom Arush teaches that it is quite normal for any wife to 
over-react, when we men are not in our own place,) but it is wrong for 
me as a man to react to my wife in a feminine way.  What I may not have 
explained very well (and I am not sure if it belonged here at all what I 
did write) is, I felt free to now write how I used to feel when I did 
not know why her actions where so hard to take. But I now see a beauty 
of the work of Hashem in our relationship. Rabbi Shalom Arush and Rabbi 
Brody teach that "A wife is like a diamond studded mirror set before a 
man's face, and, that a man needs to be married to learn to really know 
God". I need to react as a man, even though my wife was responding with 
an inordinate reaction in illness. And wanted to just write what a 
difference it makes now, especially when I don't have to feed that 
spirit of bipolar by getting offended, angry, or feel defeated, any 
more, because of learning my lesson how any wife needs to be treated. 
This however rough experience has been a tremendous blessing in my life 
when I start to realize what it is, to become a man. A woman is created 
in a very unique way. And has a very special place in the home. And as 
the queen of the home. She is created to be feminine. But it is not for 
a man to act in a feminine way. I am almost 74, and I am starting to 
learn that likely no woman appreciates a man to treat her in a womanish 
way.

I hope I am not just making a mess of the whole story. But I have been 
surprised how  understanding this group is. Maybe you can overlook  my  
way of  expressing myself  as having to do with old age. But anyone, 
feel free to remind me if I am getting to free in my expressions, where 
they maybe do not belong. I am sorry if I have been acting inappropriate

Cornie


susie getskow wrote:
> Shalom All,
>  
> I think the lot of us check our email on a fairly regular basis. At 
> work it is easier to quickly jump on and check if something needs our 
> attention. I do not work outside the home but always check my email 
> first. I will leisurely check SWW forum. The email dialogue is a much 
> faster pace and more shoot from the hip. I take my time on SWW when I 
> really want to study and think things out. If your at work , pressed 
> for time and checking your emails will you open a post titled Malachai 
> 1:1 or one titled HELP!?
> Think back to the day that Catherine found out her dad was ill. She 
> was crying out for help. She needed love, comfort and encouragement 
> NOW not at the end of the day when we went to SWW forum and opened up 
> the group on prayer requests. Yes she contiuned to need our prayers 
> but this was a live NOW thing. What if that day I didn't check the 
> group on prayer requests because my interest was on the Torah section? 
> What is meatier in Torah Study than Loving Hashem and Loving our 
> brother or sister and truly living Torah? During her distress she 
> opened up to us something personal about herself because she thought 
> this was the reason her dad was suffering. This was real at the minute 
> emotions she was struggling with. This was the place she felt she 
> could turn for help and that it was safe and secure for her to do so 
> and that she would get quick response.
>  
> Susie
>
> --- On *Sun, 7/19/09, Catherine Cashmore /<chcashmore at hotmail.com>/* 
> wrote:
>
>
>     From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
>     Subject: [Dialogue] The List
>     To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>     Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 4:47 AM
>
>     I understand your thoughts Ross and stand in awe of
>     your commitment to our group and attempts to help our learning and
>     bring us together. You have been an incredible example of living
>     faith - thank you, you are a wonderful teacher and example.  I
>     think you ave done a remarkable job
>     in organizing the deferring subjects on SWW.  
>     Kim posted such a powerful lessons from the Talmud.  I think there
>     is real danger in trying to organize dialogue - this list in
>     particular - because i think when we try and organize things in a
>     structured way, we automatically have to 'edit' or categorize our
>     thoughts to areas where they are 'set apart' from our everyday
>     conversation.  I understand it may not have been your
>     initial vision to have dialogue evolve in the way it has, but lets
>     not try and change what is such an important witness to the love
>     of HaShem. I am only speaking personally here - but I
>     NEED Joe's rabbinical posts AND the birthday messages as part of
>     this dialogue list.  PLEASE don't let us change.  If we let the
>     conversation flow freely surely we can encompass ALL needs of our
>     dialogue family? Just my thoughts.  please forgive if I'm wrong.
>      I don't get to read the SWW each day as much as I read my emails
>     from dialogue - i cleave to this list as I never thought possible.
>      Catherine x
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary---get free winks
>     and emoticons. Get Them Now
>     <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/>
>
>     -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.20/2248 - Release Date: 07/19/09 05:57:00
>
>   

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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 18:49:44 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:49:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] At a loss
In-Reply-To: <D166D7798DAE44D28F99792A16E80F7B@davesbook>
References: <2FC1FD3C787049A194188976054557B8@ownerPC>
	<D166D7798DAE44D28F99792A16E80F7B@davesbook>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907191649t5c28bb7bt5b64223408c3e8d6@mail.gmail.com>

Or just view emails on line and don't use outlook at all,  with the sheer
volume of this list that is what I do
Kim

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net> wrote:

>  I have this box (security setting) unchecked and I have absolutely no
> problems receiving mail.....I suggest un-checking this box, click apply and
> see.
>
> I do not recommend having "loose security" for anyone on this list.....but
> I may add that I have all my settings to allow any and all mail.  I use
> common sense in that if I am concerned about an e-mail I do not open it
> until I do a scan on it.  But I do recommend that one look at these settings
> in the 'tools' menu.
>
> I use outlook express.
> dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Sandra <sandrainglis at optusnet.com.au>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 18, 2009 6:52 PM
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] At a loss
>
> Shalom all,
>
>  I have the same problem. I just checked my options and found my security
> setting is set to block images and other external content in HTML e-mail. Is
> it safe to allow this? Why has my security blocked it and will allowing this
> fix the problem or is there something else I need to do? I noticed there is
> an option to read all messages in plain text would checking this option
> solve the problem? If any one can answer these questions I would be grateful
> for the help.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 18:50:17 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:50:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <011001ca0892$87258170$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
References: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011001ca0892$87258170$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907191650q2d149b18l33d34b5f521f2928@mail.gmail.com>

Good idea, Cody!
Kim

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:

>  *Sounds good for me Cody. It also would cut down on duplicates,
> hopefully. Dick L*
> .*Subject:* [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
>
>
>     Just wanted to chime in.  Maybe it would be a good idea to create
> another mailing list.
> This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots of faith
> list, and those who are can be a member of both.  Everyone wins this way.
>
> I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about 5
> minutes.  I named it the Living Room.
>
> If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any time.
>  All I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on the new list.
> Or, someone else could create one.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Cody
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 18:55:53 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:55:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <550159.83488.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Well said Cornie!
?
Margie

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net> wrote:


From: Cornie Reimer <cormary at mts.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 4:36 PM


right on Susie

That is the way I see it too, Susie. I am working on my book, than when? I get weary I check my e-mails with one click, and here is your encouraging note. I will not try to interfere, if this is not the intent of this dialogue groups creater. I might just have to check myself out of this group if that would have to change. My study time is mostly not on the Internet. But I have learned so much on this list just as it is. I would really miss it to be different. Of course who knows, I might have a thing or two to learn again.

One thing that I learned when I first started to get acquainted? with you all. One of the first things I caught myself with was how self righteous or sef centered I had been all along, so much just being on my own. I was not really challenged much on my own. There seemed to be others who were challenged too. Once in a while we had to get reminded of our brashness or disorderedness.? We could have been hurting each other or some one in particular, but there was such a tender desire to be felt in the whole group that we want to treat each other with respect. And at least to agree to disagree with one another where we don't see eye to eye.? My view does not always have to be right. I thought that was a very good exercise for me. 

It bothers me a little the way I expressed myself the other day when I compared my own dear wife with Yasser Arafat, a terrorist. And sent it to the list. I want to be understood, for those who don't know the natural symptoms of the illness of bipolar. ( Please don't get me wrong, Rabbi Shalom Arush teaches that it is quite normal for any wife to over-react, when we men are not in our own place,) but it is wrong for me as a man to react to my wife in a feminine way.? What I may not have explained very well (and I am not sure if it belonged here at all what I did write) is, I felt free to now write how I used to feel when I did not know why her actions where so hard to take. But I now see a beauty of the work of Hashem in our relationship. Rabbi Shalom Arush and Rabbi Brody teach that "A wife is like a diamond studded mirror set before a man's face, and, that a man needs to be married to learn to really know God". I need to react as a man, even though my
 wife was responding with an inordinate reaction in illness. And wanted to just write what a difference it makes now, especially when I don't have to feed that spirit of bipolar by getting offended, angry, or feel defeated, any more, because of learning my lesson how any wife needs to be treated. This however rough experience has been a tremendous blessing in my life when I start to realize what it is, to become a man. A woman is created in a very unique way. And has a very special place in the home. And as the queen of the home. She is created to be feminine. But it is not for a man to act in a feminine way. I am almost 74, and I am starting to learn that likely no woman appreciates a man to treat her in a womanish way. 

I hope I am not just making a mess of the whole story. But I have been surprised how? understanding this group is. Maybe you can overlook? my? way of? expressing myself? as having to do with old age. But anyone, feel free to remind me if I am getting to free in my expressions, where they maybe do not belong. I am sorry if I have been acting inappropriate 

Cornie


susie getskow wrote: 





Shalom All,
?
I think the lot of us check our email on a fairly regular basis. At work it is easier to quickly jump on and check if something needs our attention. I do not work outside the home but always check my email first. I will leisurely check SWW forum. The email dialogue is a much faster pace and more shoot from the hip. I take my time on SWW when I really want to study and think things out. If your at work , pressed for time and checking your emails will you open a post titled Malachai 1:1 or one titled HELP!?
Think back to the day that Catherine found out her dad was ill. She was crying out for help. She needed love, comfort and encouragement NOW not at the end of the day when we went to SWW forum and opened up the group on prayer requests. Yes she contiuned to need our prayers but this was a live NOW thing. What if that day I didn't check the group on prayer requests because my interest was on the Torah section? What is meatier in Torah Study than Loving Hashem and Loving our brother or sister and truly living Torah? During her distress she opened up to us something personal about herself because she thought this was the reason her dad was suffering. This was real at the minute emotions she was struggling with. This was the place she felt she could turn for help and that it was safe and secure for her to do so and that she would get quick response.
?
Susie

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 4:47 AM




#yiv1543834563 #yiv101487894 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1543834563 #yiv101487894 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I understand your thoughts Ross and stand in awe of your?commitment?to our group and attempts to help our learning and bring us together. You have been an incredible example of living faith - thank you, you are a wonderful teacher and example. ?I think you ave done a remarkable job in?organizing?the?deferring?subjects on SWW. ? 
Kim posted such a powerful lessons from the?Talmud. ?I think there is real danger in trying to?organize?dialogue - this list in particular - because i think when we try and?organize?things in a structured way, we?automatically?have?to 'edit' or?categorize?our thoughts to areas where they are 'set apart' from our everyday conversation. ?I understand it may not have been your initial?vision?to?have?dialogue evolve in the way it has, but lets not try and change what is such an?important?witness to the love of HaShem. I am only speaking personally here - but I NEED?Joe's?rabbinical posts AND the birthday messages as part of this dialogue list. ?PLEASE don't let us change. ?If we let the conversation flow freely surely we can?encompass?ALL needs of our dialogue family? Just my thoughts. ?please forgive if I'm wrong. ?I don't get to read the SWW each day as much as I read my emails from dialogue - i cleave to this list as I never
 thought possible. ?Catherine x


Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons. Get Them Now 
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul 19 21:23:34 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:23:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907191650q2d149b18l33d34b5f521f2928@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57206.99239.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011001ca0892$87258170$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
	<1c8dbb6e0907191650q2d149b18l33d34b5f521f2928@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB58C13554914BEE907714A06D0F07AF@bettylaptop>

Perhaps this would work.  I really think we need to try not to get upset
about all of this, as I did.  I have been thinking about all this over the
weekend.  I know how much several of us have depended upon, appreciated and
enjoyed this list. I hear your hearts and am right there with you.  I have
though felt the need for more Torah study, not that I don't want it all.  

 

I do think however, that we need to defer to Ross and his vision for this
Dialogue Group.  I have known Ross for well over 15 years and have the
deepest respect for him and I love him like a son. He has tried to express
what he feels is the purpose of the list and as he said, is not going to
come across with a heavy hand as he said.  He is too sensitive and too kind
to do that.  

 

But if his vision is for those coming out of Christianity and these new
people who are searching for answers, sign onto the Dialogue list,  thinking
they are going to be discussing the Bible and instead find a different thing
(although very beneficial and good for most of us), they might not stay.  I
can see his point. 

 

Maybe we do need two lists, as Cody suggested.  I know some of you have said
you would rather have everything all in one place, as in the meaningful
piece from the Talmud that Kim quoted. I can see that, but again, I believe
we need to reach out of ourselves and try to look at what would serve the
greater good, globally.  Just a though.it is something to think about
anyway.

 

I realize that I had said in an earlier email that I was not going to post
anymore prayer requests or personal things. This was to show respect for
Ross and also to keep me from writing a response based on emotion; so I took
the weekend to think and pray about it.  I still don't have the answers, but
together, if we hang in there and pray and give all this into HaShem's
hands, then it will all be okay.  There is a solution.  I am sure of it!  

 

Take care all and Shavuah tov,  

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

P.S. Regarding the prayer requests, as much as I have enjoyed being a part
of praying for others and asking for prayer myself on this list, the SWW
does have a Prayer Group that Kim started.  I have joined and I think
several of you have already joined as well. Those who join can set the alert
to be notified when someone posts a prayer request; an email comes to your
inbox identifying the person requesting prayer and announcing that it has
been placed on the Prayer Group wall.  It gives you a link and all you have
to do is click and you are there, so you don't have to wait all day to know
who needs prayer.  It is instantaneous, and as you said, Susie, that is very
important. I would never want to miss a prayer request either.

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 6:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list

 

Good idea, Cody!

 

Kim

 

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:

Sounds good for me Cody. It also would cut down on duplicates, hopefully.
Dick L

.Subject: [Dialogue] Purpose of this list

 



Just wanted to chime in.  Maybe it would be a good idea to create another
mailing list.   

 

This way, those who aren't interested can just stay with the roots of faith
list, and those who are can be a member of both.  Everyone wins this way.

 

I just checked it out, and actually created a mailing list in about 5
minutes.  I named it the Living Room.

 

If this would make everyone happy, I could have it running at any time.  All
I would need is an email sent saying you want to be on the new list. Or,
someone else could create one.  

 

Just a thought.

 

Cody

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

 

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From zimlechem at windstream.net  Sun Jul 19 22:14:45 2009
From: zimlechem at windstream.net (Stephen Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:14:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Right choice
Message-ID: <4A63E125.5000702@windstream.net>

Hanoch,

I think that's a wise decision, considering you won't be a U.S. citizen 
much longer!  HalleluYah!


Remez


From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul 19 23:02:36 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and Tuesday Night Live
In-Reply-To: <4A63635E.8090207@mts.net>
References: <200307.93570.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A63635E.8090207@mts.net>
Message-ID: <52333CDF6EF446F6928C57C56926C2D1@bettylaptop>

Thank you indeed, Joe.  This video was so very uplifting! I would encourage
all of you who have not seen it to take a few moments out of your time to do
so.  Jeremy and Ari had Rabbi Pinchas Winston as a guest and he gave the the
strong, encouraging teaching on the importance of remaining strong and
supporting Jerusalem and her people in these trying times and leaning on
HaShem.  Then one of them told the great story in II Kings of Hezekiah and
how he put his faith in action by completely trusting HaShem when the
Assyrians had surrounded Jerusalem. Here is the link in case some may have
missed it the first time.

 

http://wejew.com/media/5202/Tuesday_Night_Live_in_Jerusalem_-_Jewish_Destiny
/

 

Having come to the end of Bamidbar (the Book of Numbers) in our Torah
reading this past Shabbat, all of this seemed so very appropriate. for in
synagogues all over the world many of you are probably aware that when each
book of the Torah is completed, it is traditional to recite the words,
"Chazak, chazak, venit chazak!" or a variation.meaning  " Be strong, be
strong, be very strong!"

 

 Interestingly, these words are repeated at least 4 times in the first
couple of chapters of Joshua as they are about to go into the land.if I am
not mistaken, Moses says them to Joshua earlier shortly before he dies, then
HaShem speaks them to Joshua and then Joshua passes them on to the people.
I believe these words to be very apropos for us today in light of where we
are in our calendar year ( the middle of the three weeks between 17 Tammuz
and Tisha  B'Av, and approaching Elul, the 40 days of Repentance leading up
to Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur and finally the joy filled Sukkoth
season).all these things plus all that is happening in Israel.

 

Ross asked us at the end of his class that we Pray for the Peace of
Jerusalem and her people in the evenings before bedtime and in the morning. 

 

As all nations, including our own, seem to be gathering against Israel as in
Psalm 83, may we continue in our prayer for her and her people and may the
words of Psalms 102:13ff, indeed come to pass in our day and at this time...

"Thou wilt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for it is time to favor her; for
the set time is come. For thy servants hold her stones dear, and cherish her
very dust..." This is indeed a beautiful passage full of so much to take
into our hearts with the spirit of self-examination and t'shuvah...




Elisheva/Betty

 

Shaloo Shalom, Yerushalayim!!! (Psalms 122:6) May these words along with the
Shema be on our lips as we lie down at night and as we arise in the
morning...P.S. thanks, Cornie for sharing your story about the musician with
the banjo.hopefully his life has improved since you knew him back in 2004.it
is good that he has the opportunity to work with such talented and HaShem
loving people.it must lift his spirits.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 1:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live In Jerusalem - Jewish Destiny

 

Same here, Joe

It is interesting I notice, and I have noticed this other times on Tuesday
night live. one of the musicians, the one in the back with the banjo, was
our armed tour guide in Israel. This tour was not a normal tour either. And
the last 10 days I was there in 04, I helped him add on to his caravan. He
was living in extreme poverty, yet he is a great musician. Especially with
his banjo.

I am always lifted up, by Tuesday Night live, both Ari and Jeremy are such
real examples of simchah. (joy)

Cornie



Cody wrote: 



I want to thank you as well for sending this, Joe. 

 

Both Ari and Jeremy are part of Israel World TV.  They are actually on our
promo video as field reporters. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Cody

 

 





 





  _____  



 
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul 19 23:03:39 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:03:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W26AD26BEA2152A7CCAE0AAC51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<BD4392C7D9204AC4BC4D3C9F162A1383@TESTPC>
	<BAY107-W26AD26BEA2152A7CCAE0AAC51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E989D2481B42495D824B0F2E23929BD9@bettylaptop>

Hey Marvin, I am interested too!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:11 AM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Shalom, 
That is a very valid point.  Would you like to expound more on the subtle
difference?  I would certainly like to hear it.

Web 


 

  _____  

From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:03:05 -0400

I would like to point out that jethro did not offer sacrifice to YHVH. He
offered it to elohim.  I believe there is a difference in how this is
understood. If you look at the verse quoted you will see that although
Jethro recognized YHVH as above the other elohim, he still sacrificed to
elohim and not YHVH.  Which I think,  this subtle difference in the gentiles
understanding is why we need Israel and the Jews if we want salvation. 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 9:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Web,

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>  it now.


_______________________________________________

 

 

  _____  

NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
<http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009> 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Jul 19 23:28:53 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:28:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <6D05E400-70E9-4EAA-98AD-4672571D0995@earthlink.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
	<6D05E400-70E9-4EAA-98AD-4672571D0995@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <39568F8B5FD4466C9563597D1BD11BD7@bettylaptop>

Thanks James for the clarification on the Hebrew verb tenses.  I don't have
the text in front of me, but it seemed that when I read it earlier, the
verbs were left out.  Since first hearing David Horowitz speak of the "Koh
Amar YHWH' WORD, I have been captured by the power of all of these verses.

 

It seems that at one time, we had a list of all of them. If you or anyone
still has it, I would love to have it again for study purposes.

 

When I first read this text and Kim's initial question, my mind immediately
went to the passage in Zech 14:9 which Ross refers to as the 'Universal
Shema,' " And HaShem shall be King over all the earth: on that day HaShem
will be One and His Name One."

 

And then down to the culmination of what appears to be the last battle
against Yerushalayim, and HaShem's declaration in verse 16 through the end
of the chapter about that are left of the nations coming up to Yerushalayim
from year to year to worship Him and keep the feast of booths.and the
sacrifices to follow.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:45 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Hebrew verbs, or even the lack thereof, are among the most fascinating
aspects the Hebrew language. In English we have our six tenses (present,
past, future, imperfect, perfect, past perfect) while Hebrew has its two:
perfect and imperfect--often misunderstood as "present" and "past." 

 

However,  it is the case that one can leave out the verb entirely and then
the tense and meaning is implied by context, rather than stated. For example
one could say: "The girl in the room" which could mean she is in fact there,
or will be--again, the context will tell.

 

In the case of Malachi, which is surely one of the most fascinating books of
the Hebrew Bible--and remember, it is also the last "Koh Amar YHVH" WORD
that we have from Yehovah, I lean toward the idea that 1:11 is projecting
ahead, to the far future, the goal of the Abrahamic Plan, and making the
point that the tiny remnant of Judah that have returned to the Land, or
better, the tiny "city state" of Judah, under Persian jurisdiction, were
falling far far below the mission and calling that was their very reason of
being--being a light to the nations. The Malachi scroll as a whole continues
that message, and of course ends with the chilling verse--lest I come and
strike the land/earth with Cherem! Sobering words...

 

James

 

 

 

 

On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Web Hulon wrote:





Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used
there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is
probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a
preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think
that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time
of the rebuke, and will again be, honored among the nations.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web,

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>  it now.


_______________________________________________

 

 

  _____  

Windows LiveT HotmailR: Search, add, and share the web's latest sports
videos. Check it out.
<http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports>
_______________________________________________

 

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 20 05:28:47 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:28:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <SNT108-W1984A704A0BC703DEE29DEC81D0@phx.gbl>


Susie, Cornie - thank you so much, your words speak straight to my heart.  thank you - this is exactly what I was trying to express. I read every post on this list, and as a consequence I learn so much.  I feel safe amongst you all - I think of you as my family.  Thank you also Sharown for your thoughts.  I am glad to see you here - I really enjoyed reading the three examples you cited, particularly your outline of the sin of Adam - selfishness, self centerdness, lack of community - I had not thought about it in these terms before. 
I understand the comments about making two lists - but I wonder why we can't have both in the  one?  Can we not just increase our focus on scriptural study as part of the one list?  The recent posts on Jonah, Malachi etc have been wonderful to read along side the other topics.  I don't see this list as lacking in order, I see it as bonded by love for HaShem.  He is our order, and He unites us despite our differing beliefs on certain matters!  We are free here - to talk, discuss, support - each other on all topics in a community that is 'safe' because of our Love for Him.  I think it is very important to keep the prayer requests as part of this list - as soon as we try and divide we are going to exclude to some extent.  There is something very special about this group, and I really don't want to lose that.
I hope you understand.  I really don't wish to offend, just express my need.  Love you all - Catherine


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons.
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon Jul 20 05:52:30 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:52:30 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and Tuesday
	Night Live]
Message-ID: <4A644C6E.8070807@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and Tuesday Night Live
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Mon Jul 20 06:45:16 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:45:16 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>

 

 

Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book and
the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the KJV and a
couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and the RSV both
translate in the present as if the offerings are presently being offered and
that the greatness of Hashem's name is all ready know among the nations.

 

The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 2009.  The
previous statement is a big statement but one would have to agree that the
nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not ready to start
worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This verse is one used by
proponents' of the replacement theology.  They say;  See even God said he
did not receive Israel's offerings but he accepted those of the nations.
If that was true back then?  the last 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.
God was well pleased with the nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT......
However, I am reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God
of the Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God
accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.

 

If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may paraphrase: Is
there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There are 24 courses of
Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable sacrifice.  You can't even
handle the fire according to my instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I
will not accept or receive your offerings. The children of Israel said,
Why?  What did we do?    You profane my name, you polluted my table and
brought me offerings that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13
you see the charge.   

 

It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind
worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or
polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  But,
regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even Trinitarian
Christians only have one God, they just don't understand who he is.  But,  I
would think we all agree that we can not worship God(YHVH) anyway we choose.
In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel has been moved to the background
of the world stage. Pagans now dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory
of the temple  of Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his
concern for all of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then
what your doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as
the nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing the
Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are slowly
becoming just a two bit player  in the master's plan.

 

Now to the verse in question.  

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense
shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be
great among the heathen , saith the LORD of hosts.   This is the translation
of KJV.  Which I think is the more correct, but lets look at it form the
JPS.

 

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are
presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the
nations, saith the LORD of hosts. 

 

Some commentary's have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could be
understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation is
correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to 

Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah and
you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your offerings, but
from the east to the west the nations who 

have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I accept
and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this is a
different way to look at it but we know that the nations in 

the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their were
men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses and others
worshiped.  If these things be 

true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of Egypt?.
Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and do sacrifice
while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship 

the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to identify
himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think we can conclude
that they did worship the God(elohim) of their 

fathers.     

 

Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8

 

Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye,
sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen) 

Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice
the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim): lo,
shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and
will they not stone us?  - Could this have been a nice way for Moses to
say.. Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and worship with is not acceptable
for us to use to sacrifice and worship YHVH our elohim?

Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice
to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us. 

Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the
LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far
away: intreat for me.  - (Pharaoh is catching on slowly. He refer to God
previously as elohim,  but now address's God as Moses refers to God by using
his name.)

 

If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole
episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see where
God is refer to differently according to who is 

speaking.

 

Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with the
verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the Tanack as
"abominations" in this sense are heathen gods, 

such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the "abominations" of the
Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively (2Ki_23:13),
and everything connected with the worship 

of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to
completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the
Egyptians god(elohim) .

 

What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their faith?
The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the Shema.   The
affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so 

important?

 

The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with
God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of these
gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I 

understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous from
among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said,
Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the 

elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to
be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till
God and his name are one and the knowledge of the 

LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with
teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that goes
along with this and a correct walk(way).  

 

In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has
declared in several places.   If I'm being clear enough and you follow my
thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get so far
off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They started by
replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the Jewish teaching and
understanding.  The messianic prophecies if understood correctly speak of a
time when the entire human race, regardless of their ethnic or racial
identity will all be converted to the authentic and correct worship of the
one and true living God of Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.


 

 

Shalom,

 

Marvin

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used
there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is
probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a
preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think
that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time
of the rebuke, and will again be, honored. 

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>  it now.


_______________________________________________

 

 

  _____  

Windows LiveT HotmailR: Search, add, and share the web's latest sports
videos. Check it out.
<http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports> 

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From cormary at mts.net  Mon Jul 20 06:51:26 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:51:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Message-ID: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>

Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. 
Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe 
Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel 
that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each 
other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The 
differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we 
all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles 
that would just bring us into a one fold mentality.

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that 
this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, 
has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't 
think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak 
alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others 
thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, 
I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given 
even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing 
special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to 
respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the 
danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

Cornie




*The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 *
 
There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah -- between man and Hashem 
(Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow 
man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our 
fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it's 
especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man 
in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing 
anguish to one's fellow human.
 
Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an 
eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to 
another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture 
of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating 
something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing something 
against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. 
But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow 
man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That's no simple task.
 
In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not 
bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that 
the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, 
and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, 
but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon 
and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose 
at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just 
committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called 
in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to 
another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, 
which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you 
an example -- the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to 
shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression 
of causing grief to another person is very serious.
 
Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that 
murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of 
public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees 
the person that caused them the grief, so it's as if they suffer the 
pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13^th CE sage Rebbe 
Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the 
Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it's better for a person to 
jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound 
exaggerated?
 
As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as 
much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon -- when people make 
tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas -- Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, 
Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, /adam 
l'chavero/ -- man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The 
answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character -- to be 
less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way 
a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between 
man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. 
For example, you can't be a /tzaddik/ -- even if you know the Gemara by 
heart -- if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
 
Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me -- not a religious 
person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton 
of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single 
engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably 
plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like -- he told me 
that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't 
spoken to her. "There you go," I said -- nothing saddens a wife like the 
verbal freeze -- "if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose 
garden. This is no joke."
 
Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. 
She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a 
feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from 
the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the 
teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12^th grade class. Sara, 
then a 12^th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the 
teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed 
her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term 
papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced 
your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately -- please forgive 
me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara 
didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher 
went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when 
it never existed.
 
Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a 
connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the 
teacher. She didn't know what to do. "No problem, " I said. "The Code of 
Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do -- take 10 people to the 
teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness." Sara did, and within one 
month, she became pregnant.
 
A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he 
can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The 
Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels 
sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else 
especially sad. He told me that he had an 11^th grade math teacher that 
he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to 
try and make the teacher quit. "There's the culprit," I told him. "Until 
you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn 
whole Talmudic tractates by heart -- you'll be in trouble."
 
This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting 
other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever 
a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual 
debt -- the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a 
person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire 
reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of 
Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul 
that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that 
having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in 
actuality, it's suicide.
 
Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying 
principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let's 
engrave that on our hearts, amen.

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From cormary at mts.net  Mon Jul 20 07:12:07 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:12:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
	<EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <4A645F17.1030103@mts.net>

Marvin I fully endorse what you are giving us to consider. Although at 
this point I just read it over once, as it often is the case , than I 
have to hurry off to work.  But later I will likely pick this one out, 
print it out and share it with an audience of one soul, who does not 
have a computer or Internet, and is always, every Sabbath, so grateful 
to get these copies to read. Thank you

Cornie


Marvin Hyde wrote:
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book 
> and the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the 
> KJV and a couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and 
> the RSV both translate in the present as if the offerings are 
> presently being offered and that the greatness of Hashem's name is all 
> ready know among the nations.
>
>  
>
> The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 
> 2009.  The previous statement is a big statement but one would have to 
> agree that the nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not 
> ready to start worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This 
> verse is one used by proponents' of the replacement theology.  They 
> say;  See even God said he did not receive Israel's offerings but he 
> accepted those of the nations.   If that was true back then?  the last 
> 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.  God was well pleased with the 
> nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT..............     However, I am 
> reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God of the 
> Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God 
> accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.
>
>  
>
> If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may 
> paraphrase: Is there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There 
> are 24 courses of Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable 
> sacrifice.  You can't even handle the fire according to my 
> instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I will not accept or receive 
> your offerings. The children of Israel said,  Why?  What did we do?    
> You profane my name, you polluted my table and brought me offerings 
> that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13 you see the 
> charge.  
>
>  
>
> It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind 
> worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or 
> polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  
> But, regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even 
> Trinitarian Christians only have one God, they just don't understand 
> who he is.  But,  I would think we all agree that we can not worship 
> God(YHVH) anyway we choose.  In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel 
> has been moved to the background of the world stage. Pagans now 
> dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory of the temple  of 
> Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his concern for all 
> of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then what your 
> doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as the 
> nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing 
> the Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are 
> slowly becoming just a two bit player  in the master's plan.
>
>  
>
> Now to the verse in question. 
>
> Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of 
> the same my name /shall be/ great among the Gentiles; and in every 
> place incense /shall be/ offered unto my name, and a pure offering: 
> for my name /shall be/ great among the heathen , saith the LORD of 
> hosts.   This is the translation of KJV.  Which I think is the more 
> correct, but lets look at it form the JPS.
>
>  
>
> Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of 
> the same My name is great among the nations; and in every place 
> offerings are presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name 
> is great among the nations, saith the LORD of hosts.
>
>  
>
> Some commentary's have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could 
> be understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation 
> is correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to
>
> Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah 
> and you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your 
> offerings, but from the east to the west the nations who
>
> have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I 
> accept and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this 
> is a different way to look at it but we know that the nations in
>
> the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their 
> were men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses 
> and others worshiped.  If these things be
>
> true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of 
> Egypt?.  Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and 
> do sacrifice while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship
>
> the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to 
> identify himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think 
> we can conclude that they did worship the God(elohim) of their
>
> fathers.    
>
>  
>
> Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8
>
>  
>
> Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, 
> sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen)
>
> Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall 
> sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our 
> God(elohim): lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians 
> before their eyes, and will they not stone us?  - Could this have been 
> a nice way for Moses to say.... Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and 
> worship with is not acceptable for us to use to sacrifice and worship 
> YHVH our elohim?
>
> Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and 
> sacrifice to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us.
>
> Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice 
> to the LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall 
> not go very far away: intreat for me.  -- (Pharaoh is catching on 
> slowly. He refer to God previously as elohim,  but now address's God 
> as Moses refers to God by using his name.)
>
>  
>
> If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole 
> episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see 
> where God is refer to differently according to who is
>
> speaking.
>
>  
>
> Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with 
> the verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the 
> Tanack as "abominations" in this sense are heathen gods,
>
> such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the "abominations" of 
> the Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively 
> (_2Ki_23:13_), and everything connected with the worship
>
> of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to 
> completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the 
> Egyptians god(elohim) .
>
>  
>
> What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their 
> faith?  The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the 
> Shema.   The affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so
>
> important?
>
>  
>
> The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with 
> God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of 
> these gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I
>
> understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous 
> from among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11, 
>  Jethro said, Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the
>
> elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated 
> for, to be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the 
> nations. Till God and his name are one and the knowledge of the
>
> LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with 
> teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that 
> goes along with this and a correct walk(way). 
>
>  
>
> In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has 
> declared in several places.   If I'm being clear enough and you follow 
> my thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get 
> so far off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They 
> started by replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the 
> Jewish teaching and understanding.  The messianic prophecies if 
> understood correctly speak of a time when the entire human race, 
> regardless of their ethnic or racial identity will all be converted to 
> the authentic and correct worship of the one and true living God of 
> Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Shalom,
>
>  
>
> Marvin
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Web Hulon
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
> *To:* roots of faith
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>  
>
> Kim,
> "Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" 
> used there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context 
> there is probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that 
> this would be a preferable translation.  Because we could take it 
> either way, I don't think that we have a problem with taking it both 
> ways.  His Name was at the time of the rebuke, and will again be, 
> honored.
>
> Web
>
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
>
>  
>
> Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that 
> the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His 
> name has always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  
>
>  
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com 
> <mailto:webhulon at msn.com>> wrote:
>
> Shalom,
>  
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not 
> have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's 
> father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH 
> because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  
> Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an 
> offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, 
> whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the 
> hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has 
> delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the 
> very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other 
> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of 
> Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship 
> YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage 
> everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com <mailto:kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
>
>  
>
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the 
> LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from 
> the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name _is_ great among the 
> nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are 
> offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name _is_ great among 
> the nations, say the LORD of hosts.
>
>  
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be. 
>  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different 
> meaning.
>
>  
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't 
> remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem 
> prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those 
> of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with 
> the right intent.
>
>  
>
> Kim
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bing^(TM) brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. 
> Try it now. 
> <http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Windows Live^(TM) Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web's latest 
> sports videos. Check it out. 
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>
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 20 07:15:24 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>

Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this.  

Avigail/Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue


Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one fold mentality. 

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

Cornie





The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 

There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah - between man and Hashem (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it's especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.

Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That's no simple task.

In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example - the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another person is very serious.

Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person that caused them the grief, so it's as if they suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it's better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?

As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon - when people make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas - Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero - man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character - to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik - even if you know the Gemara by heart - if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.

Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me - not a religious person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like - he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. "There you go," I said - nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze - "if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke."

Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately - please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.

Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. "No problem, " I said. "The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do - take 10 people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness." Sara did, and within one month, she became pregnant.

A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. "There's the culprit," I told him. "Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart - you'll be in trouble."

This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt - the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.

Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let's engrave that on our hearts, amen.




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From cormary at mts.net  Mon Jul 20 07:19:33 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:19:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
	<COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A6460D5.6070005@mts.net>

Avigail

It is always so good to hear from you in such up lifting ways, keep it 
up, you are a special blessing in this list, as I see it.

Cornie


Pat Robbins wrote:
> Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a 
> wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this. 
>  
> Avigail/Pat
>
> *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:cormary at mts.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
> *To:* Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] verbal abue
>
> Dear Web and all
> Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. 
> Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe 
> Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel 
> that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt 
> each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The 
> differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we 
> all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles 
> that would just bring us into a one fold mentality.
>
> I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness 
> that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each 
> other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which 
> I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look 
> alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each 
> others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing 
> to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for 
> having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. 
> I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, 
> being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here 
> is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
>
> *The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 *
>  
> There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah -- between man and Hashem 
> (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and 
> fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, 
> loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three 
> Weeks, it's especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man 
> and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of 
> insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
>  
> Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an 
> eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to 
> another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture 
> of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than 
> eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing 
> something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always 
> forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now 
> placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That's 
> no simple task.
>  
> In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not 
> bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that 
> the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, 
> sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word 
> of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is 
> making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by 
> turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of 
> your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This 
> mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the 
> "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most 
> violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash 
> on the violator. Let me give you an example -- the Gemara teaches that 
> if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to 
> the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another 
> person is very serious.
>  
> Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that 
> murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of 
> public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees 
> the person that caused them the grief, so it's as if they suffer the 
> pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13^th CE sage Rebbe 
> Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the 
> Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it's better for a person to 
> jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound 
> exaggerated?
>  
> As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as 
> much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon -- when people 
> make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas -- Shabbat, kashrut, 
> mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, /adam 
> l'chavero/ -- man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? 
> The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character -- 
> to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. 
> The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations 
> between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her 
> character. For example, you can't be a /tzaddik/ -- even if you know 
> the Gemara by heart -- if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
>  
> Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me -- not a religious 
> person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a 
> ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single 
> engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably 
> plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like -- he told 
> me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he 
> hasn't spoken to her. "There you go," I said -- nothing saddens a wife 
> like the verbal freeze -- "if you sadden her, don't expect your life 
> to be a rose garden. This is no joke."
>  
> Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to 
> me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman 
> had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher 
> from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes 
> that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12^th grade 
> class. Sara, then a 12^th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By 
> that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that 
> ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher 
> returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and 
> apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been 
> feeling well lately -- please forgive me!" The teacher never once 
> suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to 
> tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave 
> blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.
>  
> Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a 
> connection between her not having children and between her deceiving 
> the teacher. She didn't know what to do. "No problem, " I said. "The 
> Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do -- take 10 people to 
> the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness." Sara did, and 
> within one month, she became pregnant.
>  
> A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he 
> can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read 
> The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still 
> feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else 
> especially sad. He told me that he had an 11^th grade math teacher 
> that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the 
> book to try and make the teacher quit. "There's the culprit," I told 
> him. "Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if 
> you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart -- you'll be in trouble."
>  
> This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting 
> other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. 
> Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep 
> spiritual debt -- the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and 
> if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an 
> entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires 
> of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a 
> soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think 
> that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in 
> actuality, it's suicide.
>  
> Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the 
> underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is 
> elaboration. Let's engrave that on our hearts, amen.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.20/2249 - Release Date: 07/19/09 17:59:00
>
>   

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From beartrm at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 07:51:37 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W1984A704A0BC703DEE29DEC81D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom Family,
? 
? I too wish to express the oneness and connection I fell to all on the list.? As so many have expressed (me included) this is the only place we feel connected because there just aren't many like minded people in my area.? When we request prayer for our needs it helps me to know each of you a little bit better.? I use both sites (List & SWW) for spiritual?as well as fellowship.? I hope everyone will continue to share their personal as well as?Torah thoughts?with me.? 
? Right now I am battling a spurt of pain problems.? As many of you know I am in a wheelchair.? I go through?cycles of having my pain under control with medication (which stinks) but then there are the times when it gets the better of me also.? I would like to request prayer that HaShem would deliver me from my pain as well as the medication.
? Once again I have come to feel as each of you as my extended family and I love the opportunity and blessing?to pray for each of you.? 
?
Shalom,? Susan


--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 5:28 AM




#yiv1011324906 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1011324906 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Susie, Cornie - thank you so much, your words speak straight to my heart. ?thank you - this is exactly what I was trying to express. I read every post on this list, and as a?consequence?I learn so much. ?I feel safe?amongst?you all - I think of you as my family. ?Thank you also Sharown for your thoughts. ?I am glad to see you here - I really enjoyed reading the three examples you cited, particularly your outline of the sin of Adam - selfishness, self centerdness, lack of community - I had not thought about it in these terms before.?


I understand the comments about making two lists - but I wonder why we can't have both in the ?one? ?Can we not just increase our focus on?scriptural?study as part of the one list? ?The recent posts on?Jonah, Malachi etc have been wonderful to read along side the other topics. ?I don't see this list as lacking in order, I see it as bonded by love for HaShem. ?He is our order, and He unites us despite our differing beliefs on certain matters! ?We are free here - to talk, discuss, support - each other on all topics in a community that is 'safe' because of our Love for Him. ?I think it is very important to keep the prayer requests as part of this list - as soon as we try and divide we are going to exclude to some extent. ?There is something very special about this group, and I really don't want to lose that.


I hope you understand. ?I really don't wish to offend, just express my need. ?Love you all - Catherine






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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 20 08:42:32 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:42:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS16786915ADEB24E6E99139BA1D0@phx.gbl>

So glad I had not left the house yet today, Susan.  I will be asking our Father to alleviate your pain.  I will be lifting you up to HaShem as I go through my day.

Am wondering what others may see in Proverbs 17:22,  "A merry heart is a good medicine:  but a broken spirit dries the bones."  I find that the acceptance and conversations on Dialogue do cheer my heart and I believe therefore work like a good medicine.  As we delve into HaShem's Word, we find answers, and that is always thrilling to me, not to mention healing.  As we study and submit our findings to the others on the List, it spreads the joy.  

I may be wrong, but it seems that searching His Word and our prayer needs go together.   We find love, guidance, healing, and community by sharing His Word.  

I also think it so important that we remember to share our PR's (as Steve calls our "private revelations") that HaShem gives us.  I find these personal Words of Scripture strengthening and of such great encouragement.  I love it when others share what He is teaching them and the method by which He got their attention in the matter.  

Will have you on my heart all through this day and night, Susan.  Each time He brings you to my mind, I will pray again.  Many times He wakes me through the night to pray.  And may His precious Word bring you the MERRIEST HEART there could possibly be!!!!

Love,

Avigail/Pat         


From: susan strickland 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:51 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The List


      Shalom Family,
       
        I too wish to express the oneness and connection I fell to all on the list.  As so many have expressed (me included) this is the only place we feel connected because there just aren't many like minded people in my area.  When we request prayer for our needs it helps me to know each of you a little bit better.  I use both sites (List & SWW) for spiritual as well as fellowship.  I hope everyone will continue to share their personal as well as Torah thoughts with me.  
        Right now I am battling a spurt of pain problems.  As many of you know I am in a wheelchair.  I go through cycles of having my pain under control with medication (which stinks) but then there are the times when it gets the better of me also.  I would like to request prayer that HaShem would deliver me from my pain as well as the medication.
        Once again I have come to feel as each of you as my extended family and I love the opportunity and blessing to pray for each of you.  

      Shalom,  Susan


      --- On Mon, 7/20/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


        From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
        Subject: [Dialogue] The List
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 5:28 AM


        Susie, Cornie - thank you so much, your words speak straight to my heart.  thank you - this is exactly what I was trying to express. I read every post on this list, and as a consequence I learn so much.  I feel safe amongst you all - I think of you as my family.  Thank you also Sharown for your thoughts.  I am glad to see you here - I really enjoyed reading the three examples you cited, particularly your outline of the sin of Adam - selfishness, self centerdness, lack of community - I had not thought about it in these terms before.  


        I understand the comments about making two lists - but I wonder why we can't have both in the  one?  Can we not just increase our focus on scriptural study as part of the one list?  The recent posts on Jonah, Malachi etc have been wonderful to read along side the other topics.  I don't see this list as lacking in order, I see it as bonded by love for HaShem.  He is our order, and He unites us despite our differing beliefs on certain matters!  We are free here - to talk, discuss, support - each other on all topics in a community that is 'safe' because of our Love for Him.  I think it is very important to keep the prayer requests as part of this list - as soon as we try and divide we are going to exclude to some extent.  There is something very special about this group, and I really don't want to lose that.


        I hope you understand.  I really don't wish to offend, just express my need.  Love you all - Catherine






------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From rossknichols at me.com  Mon Jul 20 10:49:36 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:49:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>

This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become. I  
have been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around but  
I have truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So here  
goes....

This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with  
continues to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks. This  
is a very good thing. The primary purpose of the list remains the  
same. It is intended to provide a place for people to engage in  
meaningful dialogue around learning and living a Torah based life. I  
require that people on this list respect the views of others and  
demonstrate patience as people sign on. Some of you may not realize  
it, but the dialogue list presently has 77 members. These members come  
from around the world. Some are more Christian in their orientation,  
some more Jewish, some sort of in between and some are tougher to  
label. Some of us have known each other for years, and some know no  
one on this list.

I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult. I  
want people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough  
questions. Some of the emails have implied that I am against the more  
personal side of the list. This is simply not true. I do however want  
the dialogue to offer things of substance. Prayer for a genuine need  
is certainly acceptable. Commentary on the current political events  
that are relevant to faith and practice can be as well. What I wish to  
avoid is the possibility that everyone has to think a certain way. Our  
media both here and abroad do their best to tell us what we should  
believe. If one offers a view of current politics, I want people to  
feel like they can offer a differing view.

I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.

I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I  
appreciate the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have  
said that we can keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on- 
line community as close to the real sense of community as we can. I  
want people to begin to think of the other members as community. In  
order for this to truly take place we must get to know each other. We  
need to know that we have people that care for our needs and can and  
will lift us up when we need it. This is what a community does.

So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw  
people to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have  
people joining in and dropping out all the time. When they join, they  
are almost always joining to study and learn the bible with others.  
Several have written me when they dropped off to inform me that there  
was very little Bible and lots of other stuff and this is why they left.

This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please remember  
that our mission is to inspire people to live a more biblically  
authentic lifestyle.

Sent from my iPhone


From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 11:49:19 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:49:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
Message-ID: <27926.21983.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Ross!
?
I would like to encourage all on this list to post more of your thoughts on SWW forum. I listened to Ross's teachings for awhile via the link at Hativka. I would ponder on his words during the week and often think, "I wonder why he saw it this way," or "what about.... It wasn't until about 6 months later that I figured out he had a forum made up of others that I could do just that. I was so excited that I could have dialogue with others who were searching truth. So I joined SWW. Honestly,(and not to be hurtful) but it was like a tomb there most of the time. I felt like I was mostly dialoguing with myself and sometimes a week later someone would answer me. It wasn't until someone posted that they also posted on the dialogue list that I knew such a thing existed so I joined that also.
What I found is that this is where people were talking. I never would have heard the wonderful insights I have learned from Patricia R., Marvin, Cornie, Steve Manthe, Dick L., Glenn, John C. ,Cody, Betty E, Tracy, James , etc. because frankly they never share there. Hanoch and Joe do post there but nothing like the extent as here.
There are a number of new people that would so benefit from all of your words and insights into Torah and they miss out because they do not belong to this list. I also feel your posts would get them talking. It also would free up our email some.
?
Susie

--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 8:49 AM


This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become. I have been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around but I have truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So here goes....

This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with continues to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks. This is a very good thing. The primary purpose of the list remains the same. It is intended to provide a place for people to engage in meaningful dialogue around learning and living a Torah based life. I require that people on this list respect the views of others and demonstrate patience as people sign on. Some of you may not realize it, but the dialogue list presently has 77 members. These members come from around the world. Some are more Christian in their orientation, some more Jewish, some sort of in between and some are tougher to label. Some of us have known each other for years, and some know no one on this list.

I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult. I want people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough questions. Some of the emails have implied that I am against the more personal side of the list. This is simply not true. I do however want the dialogue to offer things of substance. Prayer for a genuine need is certainly acceptable. Commentary on the current political events that are relevant to faith and practice can be as well. What I wish to avoid is the possibility that everyone has to think a certain way. Our media both here and abroad do their best to tell us what we should believe. If one offers a view of current politics, I want people to feel like they can offer a differing view.

I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.

I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I appreciate the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have said that we can keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on-line community as close to the real sense of community as we can. I want people to begin to think of the other members as community. In order for this to truly take place we must get to know each other. We need to know that we have people that care for our needs and can and will lift us up when we need it. This is what a community does.

So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw people to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have people joining in and dropping out all the time. When they join, they are almost always joining to study and learn the bible with others. Several have written me when they dropped off to inform me that there was very little Bible and lots of other stuff and this is why they left.

This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please remember that our mission is to inspire people to live a more biblically authentic lifestyle.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________



      
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 12:43:18 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:43:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <27926.21983.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
	<27926.21983.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <555E6388D75D4E28A271CF47084D6B11@bettylaptop>

Yes, Ross, thank you so much for taking all of this to heart and going to
HaShem in prayer to find an answer.  I believe with all my heart that He
heard your prayers and all of ours.  I was just praying for Susan and others
and crying out to HaShem for answers and when I came into our study,
couldn't help but check the list, and there was your response!  Baruch
HaShem!

I agree whole heartedly with all that you said.our list has become a special
place of sharing our lives, and hearts, and really how we are trying to walk
in the Shema every day.  When you mentioned your concerns of new people
coming on and leaving because there was not enough Bible discussion, I think
we heard your concerns.and we now have a couple of discussions  going.
Bible study/Torah study is vital to a Torah lifestyle that HaShem is calling
us to live.I think we are all aware of that, and I fully believe that we can
work together and accomplish this and make this dialogue among all
conclusive.

 

Wow!  77 people on this list!  My hope and prayer is that more of you
"silent" ones will trust us enough to introduce yourselves and share with
us.  Let's study together, pray together and continue to encourage one
another in whatever ways HaShem shows us, and in that way grow our
community. So what do we want to study?  Kim, Web, Marvin and James have
given us some very insightful ideas regarding Mal.1:11, which has brought up
some interesting ideas about Elohim and YHVH and the differences between the
two, and how those of the nations perhaps do not really yet know YHVH.

 

Cornie has brought up some very insightful teachings about "loving our
neighbor," certainly something that all of us can relate to.  The Torah is
very clear about the importance of this and Yeshua, obviously familiar with
the Torah, cited this as the second greatest commandment, just under the
Shema!

 

And Susie, I am with you regarding the SWW forum.  If more of us would share
out thoughts and insights on that medium as well, it would be good. I am
trying to learn how to navigate through it and will get better.so far, it
has been good.  I really don't think we need to choose between whether to
study Torah or whether to pray for one another.they are intermingled in our
hearts and in our lifestyles.we can do both. And when one of us in inundated
with pain or personal problems we can ask the others to pray and they can
take up the slack on the list and offer up prayers and at the same time,
share some Torah insights and contribute to the Bible study discussions.

 

This will work.  I am convinced of it.  Thanks again to all of you for your
contributions to our list and to Ross for creating such a medium in which
there is a place for all.  My heart is indeed smiling!  Baruch HaShem for
hearing our prayers!

 

Love and shavuah tov to all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The List

 


Thank you, Ross!

 

I would like to encourage all on this list to post more of your thoughts on
SWW forum. I listened to Ross's teachings for awhile via the link at
Hativka. I would ponder on his words during the week and often think, "I
wonder why he saw it this way," or "what about.... It wasn't until about 6
months later that I figured out he had a forum made up of others that I
could do just that. I was so excited that I could have dialogue with others
who were searching truth. So I joined SWW. Honestly,(and not to be hurtful)
but it was like a tomb there most of the time. I felt like I was mostly
dialoguing with myself and sometimes a week later someone would answer me.
It wasn't until someone posted that they also posted on the dialogue list
that I knew such a thing existed so I joined that also.

What I found is that this is where people were talking. I never would have
heard the wonderful insights I have learned from Patricia R., Marvin,
Cornie, Steve Manthe, Dick L., Glenn, John C. ,Cody, Betty E, Tracy, James ,
etc. because frankly they never share there. Hanoch and Joe do post there
but nothing like the extent as here.

There are a number of new people that would so benefit from all of your
words and insights into Torah and they miss out because they do not belong
to this list. I also feel your posts would get them talking. It also would
free up our email some.

 

Susie

--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:


From: Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 8:49 AM

This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become. I have
been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around but I have
truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So here goes....

This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with continues
to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks. This is a very good
thing. The primary purpose of the list remains the same. It is intended to
provide a place for people to engage in meaningful dialogue around learning
and living a Torah based life. I require that people on this list respect
the views of others and demonstrate patience as people sign on. Some of you
may not realize it, but the dialogue list presently has 77 members. These
members come from around the world. Some are more Christian in their
orientation, some more Jewish, some sort of in between and some are tougher
to label. Some of us have known each other for years, and some know no one
on this list.

I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult. I want
people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough questions. Some of
the emails have implied that I am against the more personal side of the
list. This is simply not true. I do however want the dialogue to offer
things of substance. Prayer for a genuine need is certainly acceptable.
Commentary on the current political events that are relevant to faith and
practice can be as well. What I wish to avoid is the possibility that
everyone has to think a certain way. Our media both here and abroad do their
best to tell us what we should believe. If one offers a view of current
politics, I want people to feel like they can offer a differing view.

I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.

I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I appreciate
the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have said that we can
keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on-line community as close
to the real sense of community as we can. I want people to begin to think of
the other members as community. In order for this to truly take place we
must get to know each other. We need to know that we have people that care
for our needs and can and will lift us up when we need it. This is what a
community does.

So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw people
to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have people joining
in and dropping out all the time. When they join, they are almost always
joining to study and learn the bible with others. Several have written me
when they dropped off to inform me that there was very little Bible and lots
of other stuff and this is why they left.

This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please remember that
our mission is to inspire people to live a more biblically authentic
lifestyle.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________

 

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From doug at dougallen.com  Mon Jul 20 12:49:37 2009
From: doug at dougallen.com (Douglas Allen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:49:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List 
Message-ID: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>

I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this list  
and these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read Jame's  
newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his  
book.  I was only able to attend the first night of the gathering in  
early May.  So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of you.  This list,  
the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more importantly helps me  
get to know you just a bit better.  Thank you.

A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my  
right leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be  
the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as  
one can get.  I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand  
tomorrow.

G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to  
dance in the rain.

Doug Allen
doug at dougallen.com






From beartrm at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 13:18:39 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <6428.17705.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Doug, 
? I have you on my list and will be praying for you.? After hearing your situation it makes mine seem small.? I think that it was makes sharing so special to us all.
? Betty, Pat, & Margie I thank you all for your prayers also.? I have learned so much from this group and have come a long way in my Shema walk because of you all.? With the postings from Hanoch, Cornie, Web, Joe, etc.I have learned so much and have been inspired to learn Hebrew.? I am going to try the Rosetta Stone route.? Without inspiration from all my Hebrew speaking friends on this list I don't know if I would have ever had the courage to follow through.
?
Shauva Tov to all,
? Susan?

--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Douglas Allen <doug at dougallen.com> wrote:


From: Douglas Allen <doug at dougallen.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 12:49 PM


I appreciate the list the way it is now.? I am quite new to this list and these understandings of G-d.? I have read and re-read Jame's newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his book.? I was only able to attend the first night of the gathering in early May.? So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of you.? This list, the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more importantly helps me get to know you just a bit better.? Thank you.

A request, please.? Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my right leg.? Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as one can get.? I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand tomorrow.

G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

Doug Allen
doug at dougallen.com




_______________________________________________



      
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 13:30:18 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:30:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <0AC162BD4EF64227BA9EBB58A2C75D84@bettylaptop>

Welcome, Doug!
You may have posted before, and if so, I apologize for not having been aware
of it. Sometimes with so many postings, I miss some.  And that is not my
intention.  That said...
Thanks so much for your post.  I have begun to pray for you already and will
continue to do so through tomorrow and the days following.  Thank you for
allowing us into your life and for the privilege of pray for you regarding
your upcoming surgery and recuperation. In one of our Jewish prayer, we say,
May HaShem grant you a "refuah shleimah," a complete healing. Please keep us
posted as you are able.
Please don't hesitate to ask questions or share your thoughts.  None of us
has all the answers, but together perhaps we can come up with some helpful
insights as we walk this Torah path together.  

We are here for you. BTW, I really like your saying at the end of your
email.  

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to  
dance in the rain." 

A few weeks ago, Hanoch used it as a "quote of the day," and said that he
had seen it at the bottom of someone's email...maybe it was yours...anyway,
it is such a good one to follow...seems that there are quite a few storms
among us...and we just need to learn how to dance in the rain!  

May HaShem bless you and spread His protection of peace and healing over
you,

Elisheva/Betty


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Allen
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 12:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The List

I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this list  
and these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read Jame's  
newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his  
book.  I was only able to attend the first night of the gathering in  
early May.  So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of you.  This list,  
the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more importantly helps me  
get to know you just a bit better.  Thank you.

A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my  
right leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be  
the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as  
one can get.  I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand  
tomorrow.

G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to  
dance in the rain.

Doug Allen
doug at dougallen.com




_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 13:34:57 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:34:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT108-W1984A704A0BC703DEE29DEC81D0@phx.gbl>
	<832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FF8393F4715545D7B9402D7266E9F86D@bettylaptop>

Dear Susan,

You have been in my prayers since I first read your post.and you will
continue to be.  You are a light and an inspiration to us all.  I had sent a
note a few weeks back regarding this and a PR I had gotten regarding light
and how your light shines out to all of us.  Maybe it got lost in the
barrage of posts because it went unanswered.not that that it so
important.but I just wanted you to be encouraged by it.  I will have to see
if I can dig it up and send it again.

 

Be blessed today, Susan, knowing that you are truly loved by HaShem and by
your brothers and sisters,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susan strickland
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:52 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The List

 


Shalom Family,

  

  I too wish to express the oneness and connection I fell to all on the
list.  As so many have expressed (me included) this is the only place we
feel connected because there just aren't many like minded people in my area.
When we request prayer for our needs it helps me to know each of you a
little bit better.  I use both sites (List & SWW) for spiritual as well as
fellowship.  I hope everyone will continue to share their personal as well
as Torah thoughts with me.  

  Right now I am battling a spurt of pain problems.  As many of you know I
am in a wheelchair.  I go through cycles of having my pain under control
with medication (which stinks) but then there are the times when it gets the
better of me also.  I would like to request prayer that HaShem would deliver
me from my pain as well as the medication.

  Once again I have come to feel as each of you as my extended family and I
love the opportunity and blessing to pray for each of you.  

 

Shalom,  Susan



--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 5:28 AM

Susie, Cornie - thank you so much, your words speak straight to my heart.
thank you - this is exactly what I was trying to express. I read every post
on this list, and as a consequence I learn so much.  I feel safe amongst you
all - I think of you as my family.  Thank you also Sharown for your
thoughts.  I am glad to see you here - I really enjoyed reading the three
examples you cited, particularly your outline of the sin of Adam -
selfishness, self centerdness, lack of community - I had not thought about
it in these terms before.  

 

I understand the comments about making two lists - but I wonder why we can't
have both in the  one?  Can we not just increase our focus on scriptural
study as part of the one list?  The recent posts on Jonah, Malachi etc have
been wonderful to read along side the other topics.  I don't see this list
as lacking in order, I see it as bonded by love for HaShem.  He is our
order, and He unites us despite our differing beliefs on certain matters!
We are free here - to talk, discuss, support - each other on all topics in a
community that is 'safe' because of our Love for Him.  I think it is very
important to keep the prayer requests as part of this list - as soon as we
try and divide we are going to exclude to some extent.  There is something
very special about this group, and I really don't want to lose that.

 

I hope you understand.  I really don't wish to offend, just express my need.
Love you all - Catherine

 

 

 


  _____  


Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary-get free winks and
emoticons. Get <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/>  Them Now 


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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 14:25:06 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] IWTV on Twitter/ Reb Akiva Mystical Paths
Message-ID: <132237.20355.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom everyone,I thought I'd send out the information on the Twitter account for our news network. ?It consists of world news stories, as well as many of the writings and videos I have sent to the dialogue list, such as the one below. ? You don't have to have a Twitter account to go to the IWTV page and read the various news stories. ?We are using it as a tool to find investors, so I try to make sure that it is up to date and on target.
http://twitter.com/IsraelWorldNews

I think Reb Akiva's post this morning is one that everyone will want to read, so I couldn't help but include it. ?Especially after seeing our group's ability to stay united, and I believe, become much stronger over the past few days. ?
Thanks for keeping us together Ross!

by Reb Akiva at?Mystical Paths

We are in the midst of the 3 weeks, traditional times of trouble for the Jewish people. Amazingly, during this traditional time of trouble we find a series of internal troubles this year. Riots in Jerusalem, and Beit Shemesh, and Bnei Brak. Split in the Modern Orthodox community. Even a split in my own shul!

One of the great strengths of the Jewish people is achdut, unity. We appear to be under spiritual attack during these 3 weeks, an attack aimed directly at our primary strength.

As they say in the US, it's a long hot summer. Tempers flare and issues that divide us suddenly grow from annoying but ignorable to disturbing and requiring response.?We must resist this negative urge,?for it is clearly a trick of the yetzer hara (the evil inclination).

All of us, every single one, have a duty to help dowse the flames of hatred that have arisen during this hot season. We must talk calmly to our fellow and engage our sechal, our intellect, to control our emotions. We must stop and think kindly of our fellow, giving him or her the benefit of the doubt, kav s'chut. And we must make this point to everyone we speak to... our own children, people we meet on the street, at work and at shul.

The hotheads, the zealots of impure motives, will destroy our strength otherwise. And even saying "G-d help us" then won't help, for our individual voices are not heard when we're fighting with each other.

Yes, Hashem ya'a'zor - G-d should help, but bein odom l'chavero, between people, we must also.


      
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 20 15:15:41 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:15:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List 
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1C82FBE288A290F4AC44EBA1D0@phx.gbl>

Hi Doug,

So glad you are writing to us!  And I am so thankful you have asked us to 
pray.  I almost didn't get to check my mail again today, but happened to 
have a spare hour, so came home to check it.  I will most certainly be 
praying that HaShem guide your surgeon's hands tomorrow and that you come 
through this surgery with great success.  I am so very thankful that our 
Father promises us that because we fear His Name, the sun of righteousness 
shall arise with healing in its wings.  (Malachi 4:2 in KJV and 3:20 in the 
Hebrew Bible).   BARUCH HASHEM!!!!  We serve a Mighty G-d!!!!

Blessing upon you, Achi (my brother),

Avigail/Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Douglas Allen" <doug at dougallen.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 1:49 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List

> I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this list  and 
> these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read Jame's  newest book 
> and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his  book.  I was only 
> able to attend the first night of the gathering in  early May.  So, I've 
> got my toe wet and met a few of you.  This list,  the way it is, guides my 
> studies and, mucg more importantly helps me  get to know you just a bit 
> better.  Thank you.
>
> A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my  right 
> leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be  the 33rd 
> surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as  one can get. 
> I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand  tomorrow.
>
> G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to 
> dance in the rain.
>
> Doug Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 20 15:16:04 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:16:04 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
References: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS11A57BCB33251451298F5BA1D0@phx.gbl>

Awesome Ross!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ross Nichols" <rossknichols at me.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:49 AM
To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] The List

> This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become. I  
> have been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around but  
> I have truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So here  
> goes....
> 
> This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with  
> continues to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks. This  
> is a very good thing. The primary purpose of the list remains the  
> same. It is intended to provide a place for people to engage in  
> meaningful dialogue around learning and living a Torah based life. I  
> require that people on this list respect the views of others and  
> demonstrate patience as people sign on. Some of you may not realize  
> it, but the dialogue list presently has 77 members. These members come  
> from around the world. Some are more Christian in their orientation,  
> some more Jewish, some sort of in between and some are tougher to  
> label. Some of us have known each other for years, and some know no  
> one on this list.
> 
> I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult. I  
> want people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough  
> questions. Some of the emails have implied that I am against the more  
> personal side of the list. This is simply not true. I do however want  
> the dialogue to offer things of substance. Prayer for a genuine need  
> is certainly acceptable. Commentary on the current political events  
> that are relevant to faith and practice can be as well. What I wish to  
> avoid is the possibility that everyone has to think a certain way. Our  
> media both here and abroad do their best to tell us what we should  
> believe. If one offers a view of current politics, I want people to  
> feel like they can offer a differing view.
> 
> I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.
> 
> I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I  
> appreciate the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have  
> said that we can keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on- 
> line community as close to the real sense of community as we can. I  
> want people to begin to think of the other members as community. In  
> order for this to truly take place we must get to know each other. We  
> need to know that we have people that care for our needs and can and  
> will lift us up when we need it. This is what a community does.
> 
> So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw  
> people to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have  
> people joining in and dropping out all the time. When they join, they  
> are almost always joining to study and learn the bible with others.  
> Several have written me when they dropped off to inform me that there  
> was very little Bible and lots of other stuff and this is why they left.
> 
> This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please remember  
> that our mission is to inspire people to live a more biblically  
> authentic lifestyle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> 


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 16:20:45 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:20:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907201420j3085a5b8u951b95ca89f3e992@mail.gmail.com>

Doug,
My prayers are with you and with your surgeon.  May the LORD bless you and
keep you.  Please  keep us posted.

Kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Douglas Allen <doug at dougallen.com> wrote:

> I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this list and
> these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read Jame's newest book and
> have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his book.  I was only able to
> attend the first night of the gathering in early May.  So, I've got my toe
> wet and met a few of you.  This list, the way it is, guides my studies and,
> mucg more importantly helps me get to know you just a bit better.  Thank
> you.
>
> A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my right
> leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be the 33rd
> surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as one can get.  I
> would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand tomorrow.
>
> G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to
> dance in the rain.
>
> Doug Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 16:25:50 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS11A57BCB33251451298F5BA1D0@phx.gbl>
References: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
	<COL119-DS11A57BCB33251451298F5BA1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907201425o4db868cn993d1d993a9db46d@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds good Ross.
kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Awesome Ross!!!!!!
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Ross Nichols" <rossknichols at me.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:49 AM
> To: "List Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] The List
>
>
>  This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become. I
>>  have been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around but  I
>> have truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So here  goes....
>>
>> This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with
>>  continues to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks. This  is a
>> very good thing. The primary purpose of the list remains the  same. It is
>> intended to provide a place for people to engage in  meaningful dialogue
>> around learning and living a Torah based life. I  require that people on
>> this list respect the views of others and  demonstrate patience as people
>> sign on. Some of you may not realize  it, but the dialogue list presently
>> has 77 members. These members come  from around the world. Some are more
>> Christian in their orientation,  some more Jewish, some sort of in between
>> and some are tougher to  label. Some of us have known each other for years,
>> and some know no  one on this list.
>>
>> I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult. I
>>  want people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough  questions.
>> Some of the emails have implied that I am against the more  personal side of
>> the list. This is simply not true. I do however want  the dialogue to offer
>> things of substance. Prayer for a genuine need  is certainly acceptable.
>> Commentary on the current political events  that are relevant to faith and
>> practice can be as well. What I wish to  avoid is the possibility that
>> everyone has to think a certain way. Our  media both here and abroad do
>> their best to tell us what we should  believe. If one offers a view of
>> current politics, I want people to  feel like they can offer a differing
>> view.
>>
>> I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.
>>
>> I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I
>>  appreciate the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have  said
>> that we can keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on- line
>> community as close to the real sense of community as we can. I  want people
>> to begin to think of the other members as community. In  order for this to
>> truly take place we must get to know each other. We  need to know that we
>> have people that care for our needs and can and  will lift us up when we
>> need it. This is what a community does.
>>
>> So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw
>>  people to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have  people
>> joining in and dropping out all the time. When they join, they  are almost
>> always joining to study and learn the bible with others.  Several have
>> written me when they dropped off to inform me that there  was very little
>> Bible and lots of other stuff and this is why they left.
>>
>> This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please remember
>>  that our mission is to inspire people to live a more biblically  authentic
>> lifestyle.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 16:29:11 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:29:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT108-W1984A704A0BC703DEE29DEC81D0@phx.gbl>
	<832139.89860.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907201429n5ac1dea4kf73888ebe344656d@mail.gmail.com>

Susan,
You are on my prayer list..now also for the desire to be medicine free.

Kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 7:51 AM, susan strickland <beartrm at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Shalom Family,
>
>   I too wish to express the oneness and connection I fell to all on the
> list.  As so many have expressed (me included) this is the only place we
> feel connected because there just aren't many like minded people in my
> area.  When we request prayer for our needs it helps me to know each of you
> a little bit better.  I use both sites (List & SWW) for spiritual as well as
> fellowship.  I hope everyone will continue to share their personal as well
> as Torah thoughts with me.
>   Right now I am battling a spurt of pain problems.  As many of you know I
> am in a wheelchair.  I go through cycles of having my pain under control
> with medication (which stinks) but then there are the times when it gets the
> better of me also.  I would like to request prayer that HaShem would deliver
> me from my pain as well as the medication.
>   Once again I have come to feel as each of you as my extended family and I
> love the opportunity and blessing to pray for each of you.
>
> Shalom,  Susan
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 7/20/09, Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] The List
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 5:28 AM
>
>
>  Susie, Cornie - thank you so much, your words speak straight to my heart.
>  thank you - this is exactly what I was trying to express. I read every post
> on this list, and as a consequence I learn so much.  I feel safe amongst you
> all - I think of you as my family.  Thank you also Sharown for your
> thoughts.  I am glad to see you here - I really enjoyed reading the three
> examples you cited, particularly your outline of the sin of Adam -
> selfishness, self centerdness, lack of community - I had not thought about
> it in these terms before.
> I understand the comments about making two lists - but I wonder why we
> can't have both in the  one?  Can we not just increase our focus
> on scriptural study as part of the one list?  The recent posts on Jonah,
> Malachi etc have been wonderful to read along side the other topics.  I
> don't see this list as lacking in order, I see it as bonded by love for
> HaShem.  He is our order, and He unites us despite our differing beliefs on
> certain matters!  We are free here - to talk, discuss, support - each other
> on all topics in a community that is 'safe' because of our Love for Him.  I
> think it is very important to keep the prayer requests as part of this list
> - as soon as we try and divide we are going to exclude to some extent.
>  There is something very special about this group, and I really don't want
> to lose that.
>
> I hope you understand.  I really don't wish to offend, just express my
> need.  Love you all - Catherine
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and
> emoticons. Get Them Now <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 20 16:40:38 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:40:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
References: <7D43C596-CCE8-4144-B851-5309EC85FFBC@me.com>
Message-ID: <8471A3BF-4BB2-4FAF-9CF8-BC79ECFF6624@earthlink.net>

Bravo to all of you who listened, thought, expressed yourself, and  
seemed to forge a conscensus of sorts. This wonderful medium can now  
only improve. Thanks for your ever wise words and level head Ross. Now  
if we can just get more people to jump in.

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 20, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> This morning I have a new appeciation for what this list has become.  
> I have been somewhat silent as the exchanges have been flying around  
> but I have truly been in much prayer about all of your input. So  
> here goes....
>
> This list as well as the "ministry" that I have been blessed with  
> continues to grow. People from every walk have joined our ranks.  
> This is a very good thing. The primary purpose of the list remains  
> the same. It is intended to provide a place for people to engage in  
> meaningful dialogue around learning and living a Torah based life. I  
> require that people on this list respect the views of others and  
> demonstrate patience as people sign on. Some of you may not realize  
> it, but the dialogue list presently has 77 members. These members  
> come from around the world. Some are more Christian in their  
> orientation, some more Jewish, some sort of in between and some are  
> tougher to label. Some of us have known each other for years, and  
> some know no one on this list.
>
> I have come to learn over time that this journey is often difficult.  
> I want people to feel at ease and comfortable to ask the tough  
> questions. Some of the emails have implied that I am against the  
> more personal side of the list. This is simply not true. I do  
> however want the dialogue to offer things of substance. Prayer for a  
> genuine need is certainly acceptable. Commentary on the current  
> political events that are relevant to faith and practice can be as  
> well. What I wish to avoid is the possibility that everyone has to  
> think a certain way. Our media both here and abroad do their best to  
> tell us what we should believe. If one offers a view of current  
> politics, I want people to feel like they can offer a differing view.
>
> I would love to see original content and thought more frequently.
>
> I do not see a need at this time to create another list though I  
> appreciate the offer from Cody. I agree with those of you who have  
> said that we can keep it all here. In a way I desire to make this on- 
> line community as close to the real sense of community as we can. I  
> want people to begin to think of the other members as community. In  
> order for this to truly take place we must get to know each other.  
> We need to know that we have people that care for our needs and can  
> and will lift us up when we need it. This is what a community does.
>
> So, please continue to dialogue. My goal all along has been to draw  
> people to the Torah. Keep this in mind. Also remember that we have  
> people joining in and dropping out all the time. When they join,  
> they are almost always joining to study and learn the bible with  
> others. Several have written me when they dropped off to inform me  
> that there was very little Bible and lots of other stuff and this is  
> why they left.
>
> This list can be unique. It can be very personal, but please  
> remember that our mission is to inspire people to live a more  
> biblically authentic lifestyle.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 17:10:33 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:10:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Web,
What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I asked
Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me only about 80
years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He told me that the 430
yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that his seed would be strangers in
a strange land.  Were the Israelites not living separate in the land of
Goshen due to the fact the they were shepherds (an abomination to the
Egyptians)?  We have no proof either way in the Torah, but it is possible
that they did sacrifice or at least have knowledge of it before they were
in-slaved.

Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation, Yithro claims
that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.  He does not say that He
is the only god, just superior to others.  I do believe that he did come to
believe in the One True G-d, but it was a progression.

What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am
referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.

Enjoying the dialogue...

Kim





On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>  Shalom Kim,
> This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the
> Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced
> korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:
>
> Exod 8:25-27
> 25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to
> your Elohim in the land."
> 26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing
> the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. *If we sacrifice the
> abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
> *27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to
> YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."
>
> The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael
> (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with
> Yosef.
>
> There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do
> something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave
> Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We
> are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with,
> but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide
> whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
> I agree with your first statement: *I**t seems to me that YHWH is
> reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.
> *  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed
> among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a
> question concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and
> Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and
> tradition states that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses
> and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked
> that the Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to
> sacrifice to YHVH.
>
> I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
> monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
> for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
> taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never
> saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
> He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
> of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
> people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
> thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
> to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
> the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
> get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD
> of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
> the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in
> every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a
> pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of
> hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
> there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
> anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
> sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
> not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> ------------------------------
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
> now.<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.<http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From cormary at mts.net  Mon Jul 20 17:23:20 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:23:20 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <4A64EE58.9000306@mts.net>

Brave man Doug

How would you have chance to dance in the rain if it didn't rain? Why 
did you get a sore leg in the first place, now, what I mean is Hashem 
does not make mistakes. Doesn't the Torah say that Hashem created the 
good, and Hashem, (not any Satan ) created the evil? I sense that 
through the whole deal your faith is getting stronger, to trust Him to 
have it turn out to your good. I am praying for your surgeon to have 
steady hands, to turn it out to the good.

Cornie



Douglas Allen wrote:
> I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this list 
> and these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read Jame's 
> newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light of his 
> book.  I was only able to attend the first night of the gathering in 
> early May.  So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of you.  This list, 
> the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more importantly helps me 
> get to know you just a bit better.  Thank you.
>
> A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my 
> right leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will be 
> the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing as 
> one can get.  I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady hand 
> tomorrow.
>
> G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to 
> dance in the rain.
>
> Doug Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>



From webhulon at msn.com  Mon Jul 20 18:12:01 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:12:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl> 
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W4D46D71AC76F6484BAE14C51D0@phx.gbl>


Kim,

 

I agree with Joe Good.  Moshe's mother was a daughter of Yosef's brother Levi.  The slavery did not begin until after Yosef's death.  It was probably a little more than 80 years, as Moshe was 80 when he led Yisrael out, but not much longer.  But 80 years is a long time.  This is 2 generations. Imagine the things that folks in 1929 knew how to do that we do not.  My children were amazed to see a typewriter and called the LPs at the museum "giant CDs." After being enslaved, Yisrael was apparantly and for the most part taken from Goshen to build cities:


Exod 1:8-14
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.
9 And he said to his people, "Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we;
10 "come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land."
11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses.
12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were in dread of the children of Israel.
13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor.
14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage-- in mortar, in brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which they made them serve was with rigor.


Back at this time it was only common to offer sacrifice for a particular event or when making a request.  It is very doubtful that they made offerings during this time.  It strikes me as telling that Yitro shows up and does the first offering recorded after the exodus and scripture specifically places Aharon at the event and then he is tasked with overseeing the offerings.  This is circumstantial evidence but I can find no evidence to the contrary.

 

 

As to Yitro's statement that YHWH is greater than other elohim, consider these statements:


Exod 15:11
11 "Who is like You, O YHWH, among the gods? Who is like You, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Moshe)


Deut 3:24
24 'O Master YHWH, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds? (Moshe)


IKing 8:22-23
22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of YHWH in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread out his hands toward heaven;
23 and he said: "YHWH Elohimof Israel, there is no god in heaven above or on earth below like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts. (Shlomo)


Ps 86:6-8
6 Give ear, O YHWH, to my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.
7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon You, for You will answer me.
8 Among the gods there is none like You, O Master; nor are there any works like Your works.
(David)

 

Exod 12:12
12 'For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am YHWH. (YHWH)


Finally, the only passage that comes to mind that is remotely similar is this:

 

Isa 56:3-7
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to YHWH speak, saying, "YHWH has utterly separated me from His people"; nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
4 For thus says YHWH: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.
6 "Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be His servants-- everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant--
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."


Web 


 


Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:10:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Shalom Web,


What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I asked Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me only about 80 years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He told me that the 430 yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that his seed would be strangers in a strange land.  Were the Israelites not living separate in the land of Goshen due to the fact the they were shepherds (an abomination to the Egyptians)?  We have no proof either way in the Torah, but it is possible that they did sacrifice or at least have knowledge of it before they were in-slaved.  


Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation, Yithro claims that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.  He does not say that He is the only god, just superior to others.  I do believe that he did come to believe in the One True G-d, but it was a progression.  


What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.


Enjoying the dialogue...


Kim










On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


Shalom Kim,
This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:

Exod 8:25-27
25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to your Elohim in the land."
26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. If we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."

The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with Yosef.
 
There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with, but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11



From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 


I agree with your first statement: It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a question concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to YHVH.   


I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.


Kim 


On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 


The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.


Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.


Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.


Kim


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From webhulon at msn.com  Mon Jul 20 18:26:25 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:26:25 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
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Cornie,

Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you asked me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I have abused someone verbally?  Please let me know where you are coming from.

Web 


 


From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400


Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this.  
 
Avigail/Pat




From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one fold mentality. 

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

Cornie





The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 
 
There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah ? between man and Hashem (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it?s especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
 
Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That?s no simple task.
 
In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example ? the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another person is very serious.
 
Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person that caused them the grief, so it?s as if they suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it?s better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?
 
As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon ? when people make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas ? Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero ? man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character ? to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik ? even if you know the Gemara by heart ? if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
 
Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me ? not a religious person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like ? he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. ?There you go,? I said ? nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze ? ?if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke.?
 
Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately ? please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.
 
Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. ?No problem, ? I said. ?The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do ? take 10 people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness.? Sara did, and within one month, she became pregnant.
 
A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. ?There?s the culprit,? I told him. ?Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart ? you'll be in trouble.?
 
This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt ? the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.
 
Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let?s engrave that on our hearts, amen.





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From webhulon at msn.com  Mon Jul 20 19:00:51 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:00:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
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Shalom Marvin,

Thanks for the reply.  I do agree with your conclusions of what we can learn from this, but I find it interesting that the verses immediately before and after Malachi 1:11 are clearly speaking of a then-current situation.  It is as if YHWH is having the prophet say, "I am very angry about what you are doing and I am going to shame you by telling you that one day the Goyim will do a better job."  It is like me telling me my children "stop fighting or when you are forty there will children next door who do not fight."  It just doesn't sound very effective.

 

Thanks also for the YHWH vs. Elohim reply.  Tov meod! I wonder if there is anyone out there with a teaching about the differences not only of the concepts, but of the actual meanings of the Name/title.


Web 


 


From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:45:16 -0400









 
 
Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book and the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the KJV and a couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and the RSV both translate in the present as if the offerings are presently being offered and that the greatness of Hashem?s name is all ready know among the nations.
 
The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 2009.  The previous statement is a big statement but one would have to agree that the nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not ready to start worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This verse is one used by proponents? of the replacement theology.  They say;  See even God said he did not receive Israel?s offerings but he accepted those of the nations.   If that was true back then?  the last 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.  God was well pleased with the nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT????..     However, I am reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God of the Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.
 
If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may paraphrase: Is there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There are 24 courses of Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable sacrifice.  You can?t even handle the fire according to my instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I will not accept or receive your offerings. The children of Israel said,  Why?  What did we do?    You profane my name, you polluted my table and brought me offerings that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13 you see the charge.   
 
It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  But, regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even Trinitarian Christians only have one God, they just don?t understand who he is.  But,  I would think we all agree that we can not worship God(YHVH) anyway we choose.  In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel has been moved to the background of the world stage. Pagans now dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory of the temple  of Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his concern for all of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then what your doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as the nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing the Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are slowly becoming just a two bit player  in the master?s plan.
 
Now to the verse in question.  
Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen , saith the LORD of hosts.   This is the translation of KJV.  Which I think is the more correct, but lets look at it form the JPS.
 
Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the nations, saith the LORD of hosts. 
 
Some commentary?s have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could be understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation is correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to 
Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah and you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your offerings, but from the east to the west the nations who 
have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I accept and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this is a different way to look at it but we know that the nations in 
the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their were men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses and others worshiped.  If these things be 
true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of Egypt?.  Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and do sacrifice while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship 
the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to identify himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think we can conclude that they did worship the God(elohim) of their 
fathers.     
 
Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8
 
Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen) 
Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim): lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?  - Could this have been a nice way for Moses to say?. Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and worship with is not acceptable for us to use to sacrifice and worship YHVH our elohim?
Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us. 
Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away: intreat for me.  ? (Pharaoh is catching on slowly. He refer to God previously as elohim,  but now address?s God as Moses refers to God by using his name.)
 
If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see where God is refer to differently according to who is 
speaking.
 
Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with the verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the Tanack as ?abominations? in this sense are heathen gods, 
such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the ?abominations? of the Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively (2Ki_23:13), and everything connected with the worship 
of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the Egyptians god(elohim) .
 
What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their faith?  The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the Shema.   The affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so 
important?
 
The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of these gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I 
understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous from among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said, Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the 
elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till God and his name are one and the knowledge of the 
LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that goes along with this and a correct walk(way).  
 
In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has declared in several places.   If I?m being clear enough and you follow my thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get so far off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They started by replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the Jewish teaching and understanding.  The messianic prophecies if understood correctly speak of a time when the entire human race, regardless of their ethnic or racial identity will all be converted to the authentic and correct worship of the one and true living God of Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.   
 
 
Shalom,
 
Marvin
 
 
 
 
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
 
Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time of the rebuke, and will again be, honored. 

Web 


 



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim
 



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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 20:16:47 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:16:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W4D46D71AC76F6484BAE14C51D0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907201816w54bbeb81y470fda1e4e22ad48@mail.gmail.com>

Web,
Very good point with the scriptures concerning other gods.  I too want to
explore Marvin's point.

Kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

>  Kim,
>
> I agree with Joe Good.  Moshe's mother was a daughter of Yosef's brother
> Levi.  The slavery did not begin until after Yosef's death.  It was probably
> a little more than 80 years, as Moshe was 80 when he led Yisrael out, but
> not much longer.  But 80 years is a long time.  This is 2
> generations. Imagine the things that folks in 1929 knew how to do that we do
> not.  My children were amazed to see a typewriter and called the LPs at the
> museum "giant CDs." After being enslaved, Yisrael was apparantly and for the
> most part taken from Goshen to build cities:
>
> Exod 1:8-14
> 8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.
> 9 And he said to his people, "Look, the people of the children of Israel
> are more and mightier than we;
> 10 "come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it
> happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight
> against us, and so go up out of the land."
> 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their
> burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses.
> 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And
> they were in dread of the children of Israel.
> 13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor.
> 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage-- in mortar, in
> brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which
> they made them serve was with rigor.
>
> Back at this time it was only common to offer sacrifice for a particular
> event or when making a request.  It is very doubtful that they made
> offerings during this time.  It strikes me as telling that Yitro shows up
> and does the first offering recorded after the exodus and scripture
> specifically places Aharon at the event and then he is tasked with
> overseeing the offerings.  This is circumstantial evidence but I can find no
> evidence to the contrary.
>
>
> As to Yitro's statement that YHWH is greater than other elohim, consider
> these statements:
>
> Exod 15:11
> 11 "Who is like You, O YHWH, *among the gods*? Who is like You, glorious
> in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Moshe)
>
> Deut 3:24
> 24 'O Master YHWH, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and
> Your mighty hand, *for what god is there in heaven or on earth *who can do
> anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds? (Moshe)
>
> IKing 8:22-23
> 22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of YHWH in the presence of all the
> assembly of Israel, and spread out his hands toward heaven;
> 23 and he said: "YHWH Elohimof Israel, *there is no god in heaven above or
> on earth below like You, *who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your
> servants who walk before You with all their hearts. (Shlomo)
>
> Ps 86:6-8
> 6 Give ear, O YHWH, to my prayer; and attend to the voice of my
> supplications.
> 7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon You, for You will answer me.
> 8 *Among the gods* there is none like You, O Master; nor are there any
> works like Your works.
> (David)
>
> Exod 12:12
> 12 'For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will
> strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and
> against *all the gods of Egypt *I will execute judgment: I am YHWH. (YHWH)
>
> Finally, the only passage that comes to mind that is remotely similar is
> this:
>
> Isa 56:3-7
> 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to YHWH speak,
> saying, "YHWH has utterly separated me from His people"; nor let the eunuch
> say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
> 4 For thus says YHWH: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what
> pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant,
> 5 Even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a
> name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting
> name that shall not be cut off.
> 6 "Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to YHWH, to serve
> Him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be His servants-- everyone who keeps
> from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant--
> 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My
> house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted
> on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all
> nations."
>
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:10:33 -0500
>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Shalom Web,
> What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I asked
> Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me only about 80
> years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He told me that the 430
> yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that his seed would be strangers in
> a strange land.  Were the Israelites not living separate in the land of
> Goshen due to the fact the they were shepherds (an abomination to the
> Egyptians)?  We have no proof either way in the Torah, but it is possible
> that they did sacrifice or at least have knowledge of it before they were
> in-slaved.
>
> Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation, Yithro
> claims that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.  He does not say
> that He is the only god, just superior to others.  I do believe that he did
> come to believe in the One True G-d, but it was a progression.
>
> What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am
> referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.
>
> Enjoying the dialogue...
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Shalom Kim,
> This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the
> Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced
> korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:
>
> Exod 8:25-27
> 25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to
> your Elohim in the land."
> 26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing
> the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. *If we sacrifice the
> abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
> *27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to
> YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."
>
> The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael
> (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with
> Yosef.
>
> There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do
> something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave
> Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We
> are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with,
> but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide
> whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>  From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
> I agree with your first statement: *I**t seems to me that YHWH is
> reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.
> *  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed
> among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a
> question concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and
> Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and
> tradition states that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses
> and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked
> that the Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to
> sacrifice to YHVH.
>
> I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
> monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
> for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
> taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never
> saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
> He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
> of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
> people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
> thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
> to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
> the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
> get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD
> of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
> the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in
> every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a
> pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of
> hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
> there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
> anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
> sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
> not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> ------------------------------
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
> now.<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.<http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009>
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> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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> videos. Check it out.<http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports>
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> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Mon Jul 20 20:55:19 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:55:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W17A01945435B96CAE04D03C51A0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl><1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
	<EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>
	<BAY107-W17A01945435B96CAE04D03C51A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>

Web,

Could you clarify your two examples. I'm not sure I follow.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:01 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Shalom Marvin,
Thanks for the reply.  I do agree with your conclusions of what we can learn
from this, but I find it interesting that the verses immediately before and
after Malachi 1:11 are clearly speaking of a then-current situation.  It is
as if YHWH is having the prophet say, "I am very angry about what you are
doing and I am going to shame you by telling you that one day the Goyim will
do a better job."  It is like me telling me my children "stop fighting or
when you are forty there will children next door who do not fight."  It just
doesn't sound very effective.
 
Thanks also for the YHWH vs. Elohim reply.  Tov meod! I wonder if there is
anyone out there with a teaching about the differences not only of the
concepts, but of the actual meanings of the Name/title.

Web 


 

  _____  

From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:45:16 -0400

 

 

Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book and
the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the KJV and a
couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and the RSV both
translate in the present as if the offerings are presently being offered and
that the greatness of Hashem's name is all ready know among the nations.

 

The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 2009.  The
previous statement is a big statement but one would have to agree that the
nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not ready to start
worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This verse is one used by
proponents' of the replacement theology.  They say;  See even God said he
did not receive Israel's offerings but he accepted those of the nations.
If that was true back then?  the last 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.
God was well pleased with the nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT......
However, I am reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God
of the Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God
accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.

 

If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may paraphrase: Is
there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There are 24 courses of
Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable sacrifice.  You can't even
handle the fire according to my instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I
will not accept or receive your offerings. The children of Israel said,
Why?  What did we do?    You profane my name, you polluted my table and
brought me offerings that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13
you see the charge.   

 

It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind
worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or
polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  But,
regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even Trinitarian
Christians only have one God, they just don't understand who he is.  But,  I
would think we all agree that we can not worship God(YHVH) anyway we choose.
In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel has been moved to the background
of the world stage. Pagans now dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory
of the temple  of Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his
concern for all of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then
what your doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as
the nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing the
Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are slowly
becoming just a two bit player  in the master's plan.

 

Now to the verse in question.  

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense
shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be
great among the heathen , saith the LORD of hosts.   This is the translation
of KJV.  Which I think is the more correct, but lets look at it form the
JPS.

 

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are
presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the
nations, saith the LORD of hosts. 

 

Some commentary's have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could be
understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation is
correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to 

Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah and
you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your offerings, but
from the east to the west the nations who 

have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I accept
and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this is a
different way to look at it but we know that the nations in 

the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their were
men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses and others
worshiped.  If these things be 

true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of Egypt?.
Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and do sacrifice
while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship 

the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to identify
himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think we can conclude
that they did worship the God(elohim) of their 

fathers.     

 

Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8

 

Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye,
sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen) 

Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice
the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim): lo,
shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and
will they not stone us?  - Could this have been a nice way for Moses to
say.. Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and worship with is not acceptable
for us to use to sacrifice and worship YHVH our elohim?

Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice
to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us. 

Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the
LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far
away: intreat for me.  - (Pharaoh is catching on slowly. He refer to God
previously as elohim,  but now address's God as Moses refers to God by using
his name.)

 

If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole
episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see where
God is refer to differently according to who is 

speaking.

 

Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with the
verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the Tanack as
"abominations" in this sense are heathen gods, 

such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the "abominations" of the
Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively (2Ki_23:13),
and everything connected with the worship 

of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to
completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the
Egyptians god(elohim) .

 

What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their faith?
The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the Shema.   The
affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so 

important?

 

The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with
God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of these
gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I 

understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous from
among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said,
Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the 

elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to
be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till
God and his name are one and the knowledge of the 

LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with
teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that goes
along with this and a correct walk(way).  

 

In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has
declared in several places.   If I'm being clear enough and you follow my
thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get so far
off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They started by
replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the Jewish teaching and
understanding.  The messianic prophecies if understood correctly speak of a
time when the entire human race, regardless of their ethnic or racial
identity will all be converted to the authentic and correct worship of the
one and true living God of Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.


 

 

Shalom,

 

Marvin

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used
there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is
probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a
preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think
that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time
of the rebuke, and will again be, honored. 

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

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_______________________________________________

 

 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 20 21:52:27 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F8D5FF6-F751-4F8D-9C94-50A9C81A7894@earthlink.net>

I think there is good evidence the captivity in Egypt, from Jacob  
going down to the Exodus, was 240 years.  Quite a few good  
chronologists have worked this out. The 430 goes back to the call of  
Abraham, or as some would have it, the birth of Isaac.

James


On Jul 20, 2009, at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote:

> Shalom Web,
>
> What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I  
> asked Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me  
> only about 80 years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He  
> told me that the 430 yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that  
> his seed would be strangers in a strange land.  Were the Israelites  
> not living separate in the land of Goshen due to the fact the they  
> were shepherds (an abomination to the Egyptians)?  We have no proof  
> either way in the Torah, but it is possible that they did sacrifice  
> or at least have knowledge of it before they were in-slaved.
>
> Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation,  
> Yithro claims that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.   
> He does not say that He is the only god, just superior to others.  I  
> do believe that he did come to believe in the One True G-d, but it  
> was a progression.
>
> What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am  
> referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.
>
> Enjoying the dialogue...
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
> Shalom Kim,
> This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that  
> the Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not  
> practiced korban in that situation because doing so would lead to  
> their deaths:
>
> Exod 8:25-27
> 25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice  
> to your Elohim in the land."
> 26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be  
> sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. If  
> we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes,  
> then will they not stone us?
> 27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice  
> to YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."
>
> The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when  
> Yisrael (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be  
> reunited with Yosef.
>
> There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people  
> to do something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally  
> did leave Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar  
> situation.  We are being called to live lives and do things that we  
> are not familiar with, but if we are willing to move out into these  
> things, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish this.  At  
> least this has beem my experience.
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
>
> I agree with your first statement: It seems to me that YHWH is  
> reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on  
> worshipping Him.  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/ 
> will be revealed among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I  
> do, however, have a question concerning your example.  You say that  
> Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously  
> recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states that he became the first  
> convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When  
> Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the Israelites be  
> allowed to go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to YHVH.
>
> I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some  
> examples.
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
> Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not  
> have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's  
> father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with  
> YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to  
> YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer  
> an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for  
> Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of  
> the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who  
> has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the  
> very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and  
> other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the  
> elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship  
> YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage  
> everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
>
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the  
> LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from  
> the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the  
> nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are  
> offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among  
> the nations, say the LORD of hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.   
> Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different  
> meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't  
> remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that  
> HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart  
> to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper  
> sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.  
> Try it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 20 22:05:47 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:05:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>

El in Hebrew really means "Power," so yes, there other "powers" or  
'ehohim in the universe, including those some call "angels." The Most  
High EL sits in the council of the Elohim, etc. These are also called  
the "sons of Elohim" in some passages. It is a complex subject but  
fascinating and the "one God" idea does not refer to "existence" but  
devotion and sovereignty as I understand things. A study of 'elohim  
makes this clear, and as you know, it is even used for human "powers,"  
i.e., officials and judges.

An interesting study on this is the one by David Sielaff. I attach it  
here. I don't agree with all of it but most of the relevant texts are  
brought out and it makes an interesting study.

James




On Jul 20, 2009, at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote:

> Shalom Web,
>
> What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I  
> asked Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me  
> only about 80 years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He  
> told me that the 430 yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that  
> his seed would be strangers in a strange land.  Were the Israelites  
> not living separate in the land of Goshen due to the fact the they  
> were shepherds (an abomination to the Egyptians)?  We have no proof  
> either way in the Torah, but it is possible that they did sacrifice  
> or at least have knowledge of it before they were in-slaved.
>
> Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation,  
> Yithro claims that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.   
> He does not say that He is the only god, just superior to others.  I  
> do believe that he did come to believe in the One True G-d, but it  
> was a progression.
>
> What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am  
> referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.
>
> Enjoying the dialogue...
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
> Shalom Kim,
> This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that  
> the Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not  
> practiced korban in that situation because doing so would lead to  
> their deaths:
>
> Exod 8:25-27
> 25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice  
> to your Elohim in the land."
> 26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be  
> sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. If  
> we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes,  
> then will they not stone us?
> 27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice  
> to YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."
>
> The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when  
> Yisrael (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be  
> reunited with Yosef.
>
> There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people  
> to do something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally  
> did leave Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar  
> situation.  We are being called to live lives and do things that we  
> are not familiar with, but if we are willing to move out into these  
> things, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish this.  At  
> least this has beem my experience.
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> Web,
>
> I agree with your first statement: It seems to me that YHWH is  
> reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on  
> worshipping Him.  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/ 
> will be revealed among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I  
> do, however, have a question concerning your example.  You say that  
> Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously  
> recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states that he became the first  
> convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When  
> Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the Israelites be  
> allowed to go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to YHVH.
>
> I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some  
> examples.
>
> Kim
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
> Shalom,
>
> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not  
> have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's  
> father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with  
> YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to  
> YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer  
> an offering to YHWH.
>
> Exod 18:9-12
> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for  
> Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of  
> the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who  
> has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the  
> very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and  
> other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the  
> elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>
> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship  
> YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage  
> everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>
>
> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
>
> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the  
> LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from  
> the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the  
> nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are  
> offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among  
> the nations, say the LORD of hosts.
>
> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.   
> Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different  
> meaning.
>
> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't  
> remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that  
> HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart  
> to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper  
> sacrifice or with the right intent.
>
> Kim
>
> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.  
> Try it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 20 22:11:02 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:11:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The List 
In-Reply-To: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <8EA8347A-721D-4E28-B5CA-C2F455B8327B@earthlink.net>

More on Doug...He lives here in Charlotte, NC, he has been my student  
in several classes at the University, he has also dug with us at Mt  
Zion last year. He is a wonderful human being and his spirit and  
attitude has been a great encouragement to me. Doug is an example of  
someone who makes all I do worthwhile...And he is modest to boot!   
Some of you met him in April at our United Israel annual meeting here  
in CLT, though he could only come that first opening Friday night...

James


On Jul 20, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Douglas Allen wrote:

> I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this  
> list and these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read  
> Jame's newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light  
> of his book.  I was only able to attend the first night of the  
> gathering in early May.  So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of  
> you.  This list, the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more  
> importantly helps me get to know you just a bit better.  Thank you.
>
> A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my  
> right leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will  
> be the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing  
> as one can get.  I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady  
> hand tomorrow.
>
> G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning  
> to dance in the rain.
>
> Doug Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________



From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 22:35:23 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:35:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The List and Doug!
In-Reply-To: <8EA8347A-721D-4E28-B5CA-C2F455B8327B@earthlink.net>
References: <C7CE5F48-4417-4F52-8E12-89040B8584DB@dougallen.com>
	<8EA8347A-721D-4E28-B5CA-C2F455B8327B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <84BD232112444295A2BEC8C8271A6362@bettylaptop>

Thanks, James for the reminder. 

Yes, I remember you, Doug.  I know you met a lot of people that night you
came and you may not remember me, but I remember you.   I am James' sister,
Betty; he introduced you to me and to my daughter, Kim, at the conference,
as one of his students.  

James doesn't pass comments flippantly, so I know that what he says about
you must be true.  As a teacher myself (of young children, but it still
counts), I too know that there are certain students that just really do make
it all worthwhile.  I am so glad that you are one of those students to him,
as I know how much it can mean.  We look forward to learning from you

Again, a warm welcome to our group!  Prayers are with you now and
tomorrow...that you will come through this, for you have to keep dancing
through all those storms.  By now after all those surgeries, I am sure you
are an accomplished "rain dancer!" :~)

My prayers are with you,

Elisheva/Betty


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:11 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The List

More on Doug...He lives here in Charlotte, NC, he has been my student  
in several classes at the University, he has also dug with us at Mt  
Zion last year. He is a wonderful human being and his spirit and  
attitude has been a great encouragement to me. Doug is an example of  
someone who makes all I do worthwhile...And he is modest to boot!   
Some of you met him in April at our United Israel annual meeting here  
in CLT, though he could only come that first opening Friday night...

James


On Jul 20, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Douglas Allen wrote:

> I appreciate the list the way it is now.  I am quite new to this  
> list and these understandings of G-d.  I have read and re-read  
> Jame's newest book and have begun a re-study of the Torah in light  
> of his book.  I was only able to attend the first night of the  
> gathering in early May.  So, I've got my toe wet and met a few of  
> you.  This list, the way it is, guides my studies and, mucg more  
> importantly helps me get to know you just a bit better.  Thank you.
>
> A request, please.  Tuesday I am to have yet another surgery on my  
> right leg.  Since a life-threatening MVA in August 2000, this will  
> be the 33rd surgery on my legs so I am as used to this kind of thing  
> as one can get.  I would ask that you pray my surgeon has a steady  
> hand tomorrow.
>
> G-d willing, I hope you have a wonderful day!
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning  
> to dance in the rain.
>
> Doug Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________



From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 22:43:02 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:43:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
	<A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907202043s54ed71d3rf5d5222c536a2262@mail.gmail.com>

James,
Thank you for this.  Will get back to you after I have the chance to read
it?

Kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:05 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>wrote:

> El in Hebrew really means "Power," so yes, there other "powers" or 'ehohim
> in the universe, including those some call "angels." The Most High EL sits
> in the council of the Elohim, etc. These are also called the "sons of
> Elohim" in some passages. It is a complex subject but fascinating and the
> "one God" idea does not refer to "existence" but devotion and sovereignty as
> I understand things. A study of 'elohim makes this clear, and as you know,
> it is even used for human "powers," i.e., officials and judges.
> An interesting study on this is the one by David Sielaff. I attach it here.
> I don't agree with all of it but most of the relevant texts are brought out
> and it makes an interesting study.
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2009, at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote:
>
> Shalom Web,
> What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I asked
> Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me only about 80
> years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He told me that the 430
> yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that his seed would be strangers in
> a strange land.  Were the Israelites not living separate in the land of
> Goshen due to the fact the they were shepherds (an abomination to the
> Egyptians)?  We have no proof either way in the Torah, but it is possible
> that they did sacrifice or at least have knowledge of it before they were
> in-slaved.
>
> Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation, Yithro
> claims that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.  He does not say
> that He is the only god, just superior to others.  I do believe that he did
> come to believe in the One True G-d, but it was a progression.
>
> What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am
> referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.
>
> Enjoying the dialogue...
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
>
>>  Shalom Kim,
>> This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the
>> Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced
>> korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:
>>
>> Exod 8:25-27
>> 25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to
>> your Elohim in the land."
>> 26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing
>> the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. *If we sacrifice the
>> abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
>> *27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to
>> YHWH our Elohim as He will command us."
>>
>> The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael
>> (Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with
>> Yosef.
>>
>> There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do
>> something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave
>> Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We
>> are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with,
>> but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide
>> whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
>> Web
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> Web,
>> I agree with your first statement: *I**t seems to me that YHWH is
>> reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.
>> *  Further on in Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed
>> among the nations. (e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a
>> question concerning your example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and
>> Aaron how to offer to YHVH.  He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and
>> tradition states that he became the first convert, but did he teach Moses
>> and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked
>> that the Israelites be allowed to go into the desert for three days to
>> sacrifice to YHVH.
>>
>> I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> Shalom,
>>
>> It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
>> monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
>> for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
>> taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never
>> saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH.
>>
>> Exod 18:9-12
>> 9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel,
>> whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
>> 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the
>> hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered
>> the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
>> 11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
>> thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
>> 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
>> sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
>> to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.
>>
>> There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
>> the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
>> get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.
>>
>> Web
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
>> From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
>>
>>
>> I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11.
>> The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD
>> of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
>> the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in
>> every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a
>> pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of
>> hosts.
>>
>> Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
>> there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.
>>
>> Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember
>> for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
>> sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
>> not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
>> now.<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.<http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 22:51:34 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:51:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>

I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been
meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do
you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path?
Kim
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 23:42:55 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:42:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C65C9C9F6F594AF098EB1E78C61C4B3D@bettylaptop>

Great idea, Kim!

 

The three books that I started with nearly 2 decades ago now were:

 

*	The Two Babylons - Hezlop (?)  I think he is the author (great book
on the roots of paganism in organized religion - another eye opener)

 

*	Those Incredible Christians - Hugh Schonfield (fantastic book in my
opinion, historical background of first century, congregations in Jerusalem
and Rome and differences.

 

*	Our Father Abraham - Marvin Wilson (my first introduction to the
relevance of the Tanakh -which I at the time called the Old Testament; It
discussed how Jesus was a Jew and worshipped in a synagogue-surprise!  a
real eye opener for me)

 

*	Abrahamic Faith - of course  :-)  (by the time I realized that Jesus
was a Jew and that I needed to start studying the Tanakh (new word for me at
that time) and looking at the new testament writings through a Hebraic
background, I found out that James had been on this path for a number of
years already and had this wonderful little paper called Restoring Abrahamic
Faith, which I promptly asked that he send to me. 

 

There were other books as well, but these were the fundamental ones that I
began with.  Although I have not yet read it, a number of people have
already read and have given great reviews on the book by Gordon and
Johnson.A Prayer to our Father.  I would think that would be a great one no
matter where one is in study.

 

I am sure others have other books, so I will stop here.

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:52 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books

 

I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been
meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do
you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path?

 

Kim 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Jul 20 23:52:51 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:52:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907202043s54ed71d3rf5d5222c536a2262@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com>
	<A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>
	<1c8dbb6e0907202043s54ed71d3rf5d5222c536a2262@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B637E117D1DF4B4AABF1F56E5EB0FFD8@bettylaptop>

Yes, thanks, James.  I am still trying to catch up on this thread and had
some other questions.  Kim and I have in the past come across a verse
regarding Israel following after their YHVH and the other nations after
their elohim and been somewhat puzzled.  Perhaps this will help to answer
some of our questions, but not tonight.  I was most interested, so I tried
reading it, but am too tired to concentrate.

Thanks for sending; it will be a good study.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

James,

 

Thank you for this.  Will get back to you after I have the chance to read
it?

 

Kim

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:05 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
wrote:

El in Hebrew really means "Power," so yes, there other "powers" or 'ehohim
in the universe, including those some call "angels." The Most High EL sits
in the council of the Elohim, etc. These are also called the "sons of
Elohim" in some passages. It is a complex subject but fascinating and the
"one God" idea does not refer to "existence" but devotion and sovereignty as
I understand things. A study of 'elohim makes this clear, and as you know,
it is even used for human "powers," i.e., officials and judges.

 

An interesting study on this is the one by David Sielaff. I attach it here.
I don't agree with all of it but most of the relevant texts are brought out
and it makes an interesting study.

 

James

 

 

 

 

On Jul 20, 2009, at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote:





Shalom Web,

 

What is your opinion as to how long the Israelites were slaves?  I asked
Joseph Goode this question at the conference and he told me only about 80
years which is why the tribes were still intact.  He told me that the 430
yrs. was from the time YHVH told Abraham that his seed would be strangers in
a strange land.  Were the Israelites not living separate in the land of
Goshen due to the fact the they were shepherds (an abomination to the
Egyptians)?  We have no proof either way in the Torah, but it is possible
that they did sacrifice or at least have knowledge of it before they were
in-slaved.  

 

Along the lines of what Marvin wrote with another observation, Yithro claims
that the G-d of Israel is the god above all others.  He does not say that He
is the only god, just superior to others.  I do believe that he did come to
believe in the One True G-d, but it was a progression.  

 

What about my last paragraph?  Do you have any idea which verse I am
referring to?  I have looked at looked and I can't find it.

 

Enjoying the dialogue...

 

Kim

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom Kim,
This is, of course, an assumption on my part based on the fact that the
Yisraelites had been slaves for a long time and probably had not practiced
korban in that situation because doing so would lead to their deaths:

Exod 8:25-27
25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Go, sacrifice to your
Elohim in the land."
26 And Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing
the abomination of the Egyptians to YHWH our Elohim. If we sacrifice the
abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?
27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to YHWH
our Elohim as He will command us."

The last time that an offering is recorded prior to this is when Yisrael
(Ya'acov) himself offers just before going to Egypt to be reunited with
Yosef.
 
There is a lesson inthe fact that Moshe was told to lead the people to do
something that they had no idea how to do.  When they finally did leave
Egypt YHWH sent someone to teach them. We are in a similar situation.  We
are being called to live lives and do things that we are not familiar with,
but if we are willing to move out into these things, He will provide
whatever we need to accomplish this.  At least this has beem my experience.
Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:46:28 -0500


Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

I agree with your first statement: It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the
priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Further on in
Malachi YHVH states that his name is/will be revealed among the nations.
(e.i. with or without you).  I do, however, have a question concerning your
example.  You say that Jethro taught Moses and Aaron how to offer to YHVH.
He obviously recognized YHVH as G-d and tradition states that he became the
first convert, but did he teach Moses and Aaron how to sacrifice?  When
Moses appeared before the pharaoh he asked that the Israelites be allowed to
go into the desert for three days to sacrifice to YHVH.   

 

I also invite others to pull out their Tanakhs and share some examples.

 

Kim 

 

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
now.
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1> 


_______________________________________________

 

 

  _____  

NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here.
<http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009> 


_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 21 00:40:28 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:40:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] For Susan
Message-ID: <8C01BF63285F4E5089BD50A45A7B57BC@bettylaptop>

Susan, below is an excerpt from an email I sent quite some time ago.  I hope
you will take it to heart and let it encourage you through your pain.I am
with Kim in praying that you be able to be med free without pain.am praying
for a refuah shleimah ( a complete recovery)

 

SUSAN, I was so touched by your post in which you shared how you were in a
wheel chair, yet you undauntedly went about your life trying to bring
HaShem's "light" into the world around you!

I found an amazing verse in the Psalms several months back that I do not
believe I ever saw before.it is Psalms 18:29.the verses surrounding it are
beautiful.in fact the whole chapter is magnificent.after all the number 18
in Hebrew is "Chai," meaning life!  

But for the sake of brevity and time constraints, I will let you read it.  I
believe it is very appropriate in this time in history because it is not
only speaking of Israel as a "light in the darkness," but also those who
have continued to remain upright and merciful and pure and those who have
"kept the ways of HaShem..."  There is a parallel verse in II Samuel 22:29
(In fact, the entire chapter is almost duplicated in the text!)  

Ps 18:29 "For Thou wilt light my candle; HaShem my G-D will enlighten my
darkness!"

 

This verse has blessed me over and over and I have been led to share it with
Kim and with Pat and Sherry and others, and now I want to share it with you
especially Susan, because it is so very appropriate for you and for all of
us who are bonded together with you in HaShem .and for all Israel as our
candles struggle and flicker and fight to remain not only lit, but bright!

 

So please take it to heart.Catherine's email below speaks so much truth.just
continue to let HaShem light your candle and in doing so will enlighten your
darkness!  And together, if we remain close and united like the candles on
the Menorah, we will all turn out flames inward, to the Center candle, which
stands for HaShem, and thus continually shine forth!

 

My love and prayers to you and to all.

 

Pray for the Peace of Yerushalayim!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Lost.

 

Your light is shining on us all Susan.  We are so lucky to have you here.
You're such a special person - Greatly loved!  HaShem's glory is shining
bright in you!

 

I SO hope we can meet one day.

 

We love you.  Catherine x

 

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 21 03:45:37 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:45:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl><1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
	<EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>
	<BAY107-W17A01945435B96CAE04D03C51A0@phx.gbl>
	<664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <350F897CCF1C42D5AFC9809A84B24878@bettylaptop>

A sleepless night.kept thinking about the El and Elohim concept and wanted
to go back and read all the posts, to catch the gist of what has been
discussed.  From what I can gather, the verb tense in this text, Malachi
1:11 can be present or future, some lean one way and some another.

 

I can see from what Marvin said below, and from you mentioned, Web, about
Yitro, that he did know YHVH, but that the greater emphasis was going to be
in the future, when He, YHVH would be more widely known as His Name would be
exalted among all the nations as in the Universal Shema (Ross' words) in
Zech. 14:9!  And when all nations would go to Yerushalayim  for the feast of
Sukkoth!

 

>From your post, Marvin,

 

In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said, Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the
elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to
be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till
God and his name are one and the knowledge of the LORD(YHVH) covers the
earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with teaching the nations the Name
of God, there is a correct worship that goes along with this and a correct
walk(way).

 

And your point, Kim made me think when you said that at first you thought
that Yitro did not know YHVH because he sacrificed to elohim, but that later
he did (as in Ex. 18 above) know Him.and that it was a progression.  I
couldn't help but make the parallel with Yitro and many of us, including
myself, who in our minds thought we knew YHVH when we were in Christianity,
but have now come to a better understanding of Him and His Nature.  Our
knowledge of Him has been a progression.and hopefully will continue to grow
.

 

Thanks for starting this thread, Kim and for all the replies from Web and
Marvin.  I would like to reiterate your words to Marvin, Web." Thanks also
for the YHWH vs. Elohim reply.  Tov meod! I wonder if there is anyone out
there with a teaching about the differences not only of the concepts, but of
the actual meanings of the Name/title. " 

 

And not surprisingly enough, there was someone who out there who has
provided us with some information for an interesting study.

 

Happy studies everyone and Laila tov,

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:06 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

El in Hebrew really means "Power," so yes, there other "powers" or 'ehohim
in the universe, including those some call "angels." The Most High EL sits
in the council of the Elohim, etc. These are also called the "sons of
Elohim" in some passages. It is a complex subject but fascinating and the
"one God" idea does not refer to "existence" but devotion and sovereignty as
I understand things. A study of 'elohim makes this clear, and as you know,
it is even used for human "powers," i.e., officials and judges.

 

An interesting study on this is the one by David Sielaff. I attach it here.
I don't agree with all of it but most of the relevant texts are brought out
and it makes an interesting study.

 

James

 

 

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From rossknichols at me.com  Tue Jul 21 05:55:41 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:55:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Chat Feature
Message-ID: <ECC7E343-4A18-4D74-933A-B1F74845324D@me.com>

I added the chat back to the SWW site. Not sure if it works. I have a  
dial up connection at my house. I wish that some of you would try it out

Sent from my iPhone


From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 06:11:11 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:11:11 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] the list
Message-ID: <SNT108-W5842A69288DD6537DF4654C81A0@phx.gbl>


I just can't thank you all and HaShem enough for guiding us and binding us together.  Thank you So much Ross.  Your words speak wisdom and as you say, we must make sure that this list encompasses the needs of all.  I too am glad to see biblical conversation getting more attention.  The Torah and our love for HaShem guided us here, and so we must make that the centre of our discussions.  
I feel this debate has bought us all closer together.  On a very personal note, I feel with true clarity that feeling of being 'one' with you all in a way I have never felt before.  When one is suffering - so are we all - and I feel bonded by these intense feelings.  
Our joint prayers are so powerful - the more I learn of HaShem's word, the more I realise the greater power we have when we pray as one 'together'. and not just alone.  There are many amazing things HaShem created that can be seen.  But I am starting to realise that the most amazing thing He created can't be seen - Love.   I don't think I have ever fully felt or appreciated the intensity of this force before.   The experiences of our list have opened this to me - I truly love you all. Thank you - thank you Ross 
My prayers are with you Susan and Doug
All my heart.
Catherine
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 06:38:19 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:38:19 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
Message-ID: <SNT108-W596B9C9E6CB8A8484E3CEEC81A0@phx.gbl>


For some reason I can't see the attachment that James added to his post.  Can someone perhaps email it to me separately?(Thanks!)
_________________________________________________________________
Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 21 06:45:50 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:45:50 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <C65C9C9F6F594AF098EB1E78C61C4B3D@bettylaptop>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
	<C65C9C9F6F594AF098EB1E78C61C4B3D@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <2E97A3B8-6307-4165-8FAC-83837241588C@earthlink.net>

I have to throw in my vote for Schonfield, Those Incredible  
Christians. I continue to believe it is one of the most important  
books written on early Christianity (other than my own of course :-)).

In terms of week by week Torah study I still find the best for me is:

A. H. Hertz, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Soncino)

Many others come to mind and thanks for this Kim. More later. BTW, I  
think someone began a discussion topic on this at the SWW. It might be  
worth looking up.

James



On Jul 21, 2009, at 12:42 AM, Betty K Givin wrote:

> Great idea, Kim!
>
> The three books that I started with nearly 2 decades ago now were:
>
> The Two Babylons ? Hezlop (?)  I think he is the author (great book  
> on the roots of paganism in organized religion ? another eye opener)
>
> Those Incredible Christians ? Hugh Schonfield (fantastic book in my  
> opinion, historical background of first century, congregations in  
> Jerusalem andRome and differences.
>
> Our Father Abraham ? Marvin Wilson (my first introduction to the  
> relevance of the Tanakh ?which I at the time called the Old  
> Testament; It discussed how Jesus was a Jew and worshipped in a  
> synagogue?surprise!  a real eye opener for me)
>
> Abrahamic Faith ? of course  J  (by the time I realized that Jesus  
> was a Jew and that I needed to start studying the Tanakh (new word  
> for me at that time) and looking at the new testament writings  
> through a Hebraic background, I found out that James had been on  
> this path for a number of years already and had this wonderful  
> little paper called Restoring Abrahamic Faith, which I promptly  
> asked that he send to me.
>
> There were other books as well, but these were the fundamental ones  
> that I began with.  Although I have not yet read it, a number of  
> people have already read and have given great reviews on the book by  
> Gordon and Johnson?A Prayer to our Father.  I would think that would  
> be a great one no matter where one is in study.
>
> I am sure others have other books, so I will stop here?
>
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:52 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
>
> I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have  
> been meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also  
> which books do you think are good first reads for someone just  
> starting down this path?
>
> Kim
> _______________________________________________

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Jul 21 06:46:46 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:46:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W596B9C9E6CB8A8484E3CEEC81A0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W596B9C9E6CB8A8484E3CEEC81A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BDF6E8D7AC6748598FAFBBF5B21C20F2@TESTPC>

Copy on the way. catherine

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)

 

For some reason I can't see the attachment that James added to his post.
Can someone perhaps email it to me separately?

(Thanks!)

 

  _____  

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From webhulon at msn.com  Tue Jul 21 07:17:50 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:17:50 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl><1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl>
	<EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC>
	<BAY107-W17A01945435B96CAE04D03C51A0@phx.gbl> 
	<664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W28E15461D29BB5F669FC94C51A0@phx.gbl>


Marvin,

 

What I am saying is Malachi was actually rebuking the priests in real time.  The writing is an account of this situation.  He was addressing a then-current problem.  The statement about the Gentiles offering to and serving YHWH was obviously meant to shame them into getting their act together.  

 

It I were trying to give my children an example of someone doing the right thing as opposed to their own behavior, I would give them an example of someone CURRENTLY doing the right thing.  I would not tell them that the kids next door will be great kids in another generation, but that are great kids now.

 

The reason that I stated this is to show that I still have doubts about it being taken in the future tense when it comes to the pashat (literal) meaning.  I certainly agree that it can be taken as prophecy for a time down the road, but as I originally stated, it can be read both ways and therefore we should make an effort to understand it each way.


Web 


 


From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:55:19 -0400









Web,
Could you clarify your two examples. I?m not sure I follow.
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:01 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
 
Shalom Marvin,
Thanks for the reply.  I do agree with your conclusions of what we can learn from this, but I find it interesting that the verses immediately before and after Malachi 1:11 are clearly speaking of a then-current situation.  It is as if YHWH is having the prophet say, "I am very angry about what you are doing and I am going to shame you by telling you that one day the Goyim will do a better job."  It is like me telling me my children "stop fighting or when you are forty there will children next door who do not fight."  It just doesn't sound very effective.
 
Thanks also for the YHWH vs. Elohim reply.  Tov meod! I wonder if there is anyone out there with a teaching about the differences not only of the concepts, but of the actual meanings of the Name/title.

Web 


 



From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:45:16 -0400

 
 
Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book and the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the KJV and a couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and the RSV both translate in the present as if the offerings are presently being offered and that the greatness of Hashem?s name is all ready know among the nations.
 
The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 2009.  The previous statement is a big statement but one would have to agree that the nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not ready to start worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This verse is one used by proponents? of the replacement theology.  They say;  See even God said he did not receive Israel?s offerings but he accepted those of the nations.   If that was true back then?  the last 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.  God was well pleased with the nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT????..     However, I am reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God of the Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.
 
If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may paraphrase: Is there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There are 24 courses of Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable sacrifice.  You can?t even handle the fire according to my instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I will not accept or receive your offerings. The children of Israel said,  Why?  What did we do?    You profane my name, you polluted my table and brought me offerings that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13 you see the charge.   
 
It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  But, regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even Trinitarian Christians only have one God, they just don?t understand who he is.  But,  I would think we all agree that we can not worship God(YHVH) anyway we choose.  In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel has been moved to the background of the world stage. Pagans now dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory of the temple  of Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his concern for all of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then what your doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as the nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing the Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are slowly becoming just a two bit player  in the master?s plan.
 
Now to the verse in question.  
Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen , saith the LORD of hosts.   This is the translation of KJV.  Which I think is the more correct, but lets look at it form the JPS.
 
Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the nations, saith the LORD of hosts. 
 
Some commentary?s have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could be understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation is correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to 
Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah and you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your offerings, but from the east to the west the nations who 
have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I accept and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this is a different way to look at it but we know that the nations in 
the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their were men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses and others worshiped.  If these things be 
true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of Egypt?.  Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and do sacrifice while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship 
the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to identify himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think we can conclude that they did worship the God(elohim) of their 
fathers.     
 
Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8
 
Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen) 
Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim): lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?  - Could this have been a nice way for Moses to say?. Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and worship with is not acceptable for us to use to sacrifice and worship YHVH our elohim?
Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us. 
Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away: intreat for me.  ? (Pharaoh is catching on slowly. He refer to God previously as elohim,  but now address?s God as Moses refers to God by using his name.)
 
If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see where God is refer to differently according to who is 
speaking.
 
Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with the verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the Tanack as ?abominations? in this sense are heathen gods, 
such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the ?abominations? of the Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively (2Ki_23:13), and everything connected with the worship 
of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the Egyptians god(elohim) .
 
What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their faith?  The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the Shema.   The affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so 
important?
 
The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of these gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I 
understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous from among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said, Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the 
elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till God and his name are one and the knowledge of the 
LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that goes along with this and a correct walk(way).  
 
In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has declared in several places.   If I?m being clear enough and you follow my thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get so far off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They started by replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the Jewish teaching and understanding.  The messianic prophecies if understood correctly speak of a time when the entire human race, regardless of their ethnic or racial identity will all be converted to the authentic and correct worship of the one and true living God of Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.   
 
 
Shalom,
 
Marvin
 
 
 
 
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
 
Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time of the rebuke, and will again be, honored. 

Web 


 



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 




I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim
 



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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Jul 21 08:09:47 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:09:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W28E15461D29BB5F669FC94C51A0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl><1c8dbb6e0907181823o1d4471dfjf135babbb4dcc9@mail.gmail.com><BAY107-W4474EF2FB8CB94DD02667DC51C0@phx.gbl><EA265CF96D414C1E88C69FA1DCC54F50@TESTPC><BAY107-W17A01945435B96CAE04D03C51A0@phx.gbl>
	<664C0ED1F8284C24801C18D6E4DB993B@TESTPC>
	<BAY107-W28E15461D29BB5F669FC94C51A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <531F9B39449E4A8091D5D0E705248160@TESTPC>

 

Web,

 

That's' what I thought you were saying.  This is a very interesting passage.
I agree it is difficult to understand looking at it with your example.  But
your correct this seems to be exactly what the text is saying. I thought
myself,  Is God saying to the Priest,  Look Jimmy why can't you respect me
and follow my wishes, your brother John does.  Which makes no sense to me,
as a parent, but then God said Jacob I loved and Esau I hate.  However, in a
past tense this would seem to indicate that gentiles were more righteous,
then the priest and maybe so, if a person is not doing what they know to do.
In a future tense it seems to be easier to understand, that in the future
gentiles will serve God.  I'm coming from a perspective or position that in
the time period of Malachi, gentiles were serving God, and God then judged
them based on maybe their ethical life styles. Maybe at a mimmiun we could
say they observed the seven laws of Noah?  Christians generally put this
verse as all future but according to Acts 10:34-36  Peter said, in every
nation those that fear him and have works of righteousness, are accepted.
Which creates a problem with the Christian salvation message as preached in
nominal Christianity.  In my bible the "shall be" is marked through and "is"
is written in.   Im going to look through my old written notes and see if I
can figure who did that? :-)

 

Shalom,

 

Marvin   

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:18 AM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Marvin,
 
What I am saying is Malachi was actually rebuking the priests in real time.
The writing is an account of this situation.  He was addressing a
then-current problem.  The statement about the Gentiles offering to and
serving YHWH was obviously meant to shame them into getting their act
together.  
 
It I were trying to give my children an example of someone doing the right
thing as opposed to their own behavior, I would give them an example of
someone CURRENTLY doing the right thing.  I would not tell them that the
kids next door will be great kids in another generation, but that are great
kids now.
 
The reason that I stated this is to show that I still have doubts about it
being taken in the future tense when it comes to the pashat (literal)
meaning.  I certainly agree that it can be taken as prophecy for a time down
the road, but as I originally stated, it can be read both ways and therefore
we should make an effort to understand it each way.

Web 


 

  _____  

From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:55:19 -0400

Web,

Could you clarify your two examples. I'm not sure I follow.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:01 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Shalom Marvin,
Thanks for the reply.  I do agree with your conclusions of what we can learn
from this, but I find it interesting that the verses immediately before and
after Malachi 1:11 are clearly speaking of a then-current situation.  It is
as if YHWH is having the prophet say, "I am very angry about what you are
doing and I am going to shame you by telling you that one day the Goyim will
do a better job."  It is like me telling me my children "stop fighting or
when you are forty there will children next door who do not fight."  It just
doesn't sound very effective.
 
Thanks also for the YHWH vs. Elohim reply.  Tov meod! I wonder if there is
anyone out there with a teaching about the differences not only of the
concepts, but of the actual meanings of the Name/title.

Web 


 

  _____  

From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:45:16 -0400

 

 

Based on my understanding of the text 1:11 and the context of the book and
the time of its historical setting I would have to agree that the KJV and a
couple of others have it translated correctly. The JPS and the RSV both
translate in the present as if the offerings are presently being offered and
that the greatness of Hashem's name is all ready know among the nations.

 

The nations still do not know the NAME of Hashem as of this date 2009.  The
previous statement is a big statement but one would have to agree that the
nations are not in agreement  about God and we are not ready to start
worshiping him in Jerusalem three times a year.  This verse is one used by
proponents' of the replacement theology.  They say;  See even God said he
did not receive Israel's offerings but he accepted those of the nations.
If that was true back then?  the last 2000yrs. Have been a waste of time.
God was well pleased with the nations as far back as 450 bce.  NOT......
However, I am reminded of the statement where Paul said that God was the God
of the Jews and the God of the gentiles also. I think we can say that God
accepts peoples worship were they are based on what they know at the time.

 

If you take a look at v.10   you see the question.  If I may paraphrase: Is
there  no one among you that can shut the doors. There are 24 courses of
Levites, is there no one to stop this abominable sacrifice.  You can't even
handle the fire according to my instruction. I take no pleasure in you, I
will not accept or receive your offerings. The children of Israel said,
Why?  What did we do?    You profane my name, you polluted my table and
brought me offerings that were sick, lame torn and even stolen.  v. 12 -13
you see the charge.   

 

It  has been said that we can see in the Tanack that all of mankind
worshiped God, all the nations regardless if they were monotheistic or
polytheistic.  They just have different concepts and understandings.  But,
regardless of how you imagine God, there is only one God.  Even Trinitarian
Christians only have one God, they just don't understand who he is.  But,  I
would think we all agree that we can not worship God(YHVH) anyway we choose.
In the context of Mal. 1:11 we see Israel has been moved to the background
of the world stage. Pagans now dominate and The Persians ruled and the glory
of the temple  of Solomon has ceased to exist.   Hashem is showing his
concern for all of his creation and telling Israel, You know better then
what your doing, and I will not accept your half hearted service.  Were as
the nations do not know me as you do.  But now in our day we are seeing the
Hand of God move Israel back to center stage and  the nations are slowly
becoming just a two bit player  in the master's plan.

 

Now to the verse in question.  

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense
shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be
great among the heathen , saith the LORD of hosts.   This is the translation
of KJV.  Which I think is the more correct, but lets look at it form the
JPS.

 

Mal 1:11  For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the
same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are
presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the
nations, saith the LORD of hosts. 

 

Some commentary's have commented that from the Hebrew this verse could be
understood either way.  Lets say for a moment that this translation is
correct. Could it be that Hashem is saying to 

Israel (Jews) you have been given my covenant, you received the Torah and
you fail to keep my statues, therefore I will not accept your offerings, but
from the east to the west the nations who 

have not received my instruction they honor my name(elohim) and  I accept
and receive their offerings and their incense.  I realize this is a
different way to look at it but we know that the nations in 

the past did worship their elohim.  We also know in the Tanack,  their were
men who worshiped the same creator or God that Abraham and Moses and others
worshiped.  If these things be 

true then why was their a need for Hashem to bring his people out of Egypt?.
Are we to think that the Israelites did not worship God and do sacrifice
while in Egypt.   I would think they did worship 

the God of their fathers, because this is how YHVH told Moses to identify
himself  to them(the elders of Israel).  Therefore, I think we can conclude
that they did worship the God(elohim) of their 

fathers.     

 

Now lets look at the passage quoted by Web from Exo. 8

 

Exo 8:25  And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye,
sacrifice to your God(elohim) in the land.(of Goshen) 

Exo 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice
the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim): lo,
shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and
will they not stone us?  - Could this have been a nice way for Moses to
say.. Your stuff,   that you sacrifice and worship with is not acceptable
for us to use to sacrifice and worship YHVH our elohim?

Exo 8:27  We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice
to the LORD(YHVH) our God(elohim), as he shall command us. 

Exo 8:28  And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the
LORD(YHVH) your God(elohim) in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far
away: intreat for me.  - (Pharaoh is catching on slowly. He refer to God
previously as elohim,  but now address's God as Moses refers to God by using
his name.)

 

If you follow the story closely of Moses and Pharaoh during the whole
episode of Moses bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt you see where
God is refer to differently according to who is 

speaking.

 

Now Exo.8:26 - the abomination of this verse, I think is linked with the
verse in question Mal.1:11.  Among  the things described in the Tanack as
"abominations" in this sense are heathen gods, 

such as Ashtoreth (Astarte), Chemosh, Milcom, the "abominations" of the
Zidonians (Phoenicians), Moabites, and Ammonites, respectively (2Ki_23:13),
and everything connected with the worship 

of such gods.   Moses I think was telling Pharaoh that they had to
completely separate the worship of YHVH elohim form the worship of the
Egyptians god(elohim) .

 

What is the one thing that Jews hold up as the foundation of their faith?
The last things that past the lips of a dying Jew is the Shema.   The
affirmation that God is one.   Why is this concept so 

important?

 

The gentiles in the text of the Tanack,  have a relationship with
God(elohim). Abraham the father of the faithful thought that one of these
gentiles was worthy of paying tithes to.  But as I 

understand it, this priest of the most high God and other righteous from
among the nations did not know the Name of God.  In Exo.18:11,  Jethro said,
Now I know that YHVH is greater then all the 

elohim.    This is the mission I believe Israel has been separated for, to
be a priest to the nations to teach the unity of God to the nations. Till
God and his name are one and the knowledge of the 

LORD(YHVH) covers the earth as the water covers the sea.  Along with
teaching the nations the Name of God, there is a correct worship that goes
along with this and a correct walk(way).  

 

In conclusion,   my name shall be great among the gentiles, Hashem has
declared in several places.   If I'm being clear enough and you follow my
thinking one is left wondering how in the world did the church get so far
off track from hashems plan as recorded in their O.T.?    They started by
replacing Israel  and misunderstanding almost all of the Jewish teaching and
understanding.  The messianic prophecies if understood correctly speak of a
time when the entire human race, regardless of their ethnic or racial
identity will all be converted to the authentic and correct worship of the
one and true living God of Israel and they will not have to all become Jews.


 

 

Shalom,

 

Marvin

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:26 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11

 

Kim,
"Is" is the most logical translation as there is no form of "hayah" used
there.  If you read the entire passage in Hebrew and in context there is
probably room for saying "will be," but I don't believe that this would be a
preferable translation.  Because we could take it either way, I don't think
that we have a problem with taking it both ways.  His Name was at the time
of the rebuke, and will again be, honored. 

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Web, 

 

Thank you for your response.  Am I right to conclude from this that the
Hebrew says is and not shall be, or is there a dual meaning?  His name has
always been revered among the nations and will continue to be.  

 

Kim

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:

Shalom,
 
It seems to me that YHWH is reminding the priests that they do not have a
monopoly on worshipping Him.  Remember Yitro (Jethro) Moshe's father in law
for example.  He obviously had a relationship with YHWH because it is he who
taught Moshe and Aharon how to offer to YHWH.  Before this time we never saw
the delivered Yisraelites offer an offering to YHWH. 

Exod 18:9-12
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the tov which YHWH had done for Israel, whom
He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be YHWH, who has delivered you out of the hand
of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the
people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the elohim; for in the very
thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."
12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other
sacrifices to offer to Elohim. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel
to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before Elohim.

There are many more examples of non-Yisraelite people that worship YHWH in
the Tanakh.  Instead of giving more examples I encourage everyone else to
get out your Tanakh and find some and share them.

Web 


 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:44:05 -0500
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 



I would like to discuss Malachi 1:11. 

 

The Jerusalem Bible translates:  I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of
hosts, nor will I accept an offering at you hand.  For from the rising of
the sun until it goes down, my name is great among the nations; and in every
place incense is burnt and sacrifices are offered to my name, and a pure
offering:  for my name is great among the nations, say the LORD of hosts.

 

Most other Christian translations replace is with will or shall be.  Is
there any validity to this?  It gives it a completely different meaning.

 

Is this verse tied to another from the prophets (sorry I can't remember for
anything where it is, please help) that says that HaShem prefers the
sacrifices of the heathen given with a pure heart to those of Israel who do
not approach HaShem with the proper sacrifice or with the right intent.

 

Kim

 

  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1>  it now.


_______________________________________________

 

 

  _____  

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videos. Check
<http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports>  it out.

 

  _____  

Windows LiveT HotmailR: Search, add, and share the web's latest sports
videos. Check
<http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports>  it out.

 

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Windows LiveT SkyDriveT: Store, access, and share your photos. See how.
<http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_07200
9> 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 08:18:53 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:18:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] IWTV on Twitter/ Reb Akiva Mystical Paths
In-Reply-To: <132237.20355.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <132237.20355.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS3A140C17C293ED1DE2ECBBA1A0@phx.gbl>

Wow, Cody!  This is terrific to be able to go to the ISRAEL WORLD NEWS site without joining Twitter!

Thank you for including Reb Akiva's words below.  They hit home so squarely with me, especially about engaging my intellect and controlling my emotions, and I am trying my best to internalize these priceless words of wisdom.    His thoughts are so spot on for me in striving to control the negative urge to "strike out" against things I feel are so deeply wrong, but also they touch upon what we, as a group of Returning Israelites, have been through recently as we struggled to stay united! 

It's good to note the way of Rabbinic teaching here.   Although no Scripture verse was given for his teaching, it is totally Scriptural.  In fact, another Rabbi from 2,000 years ago also taught on this same premise when he said,  "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way;  first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (from Matt. 5:23-24)    

I know that when I was in Christianity, I assumed that the things this Galilean Rabbi said were all original.   I thought that no one had ever had such thoughts and wisdom before.  I never realized that he was teaching straight-line Rabbinic wisdom, just as any other great Rabbi teaches to this very day.

Love to you, Dear Nephew,

Avigail/Pat  


From: Cody 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 3:25 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] IWTV on Twitter/ Reb Akiva Mystical Paths


      Shalom everyone,
      I thought I'd send out the information on the Twitter account for our news network.  It consists of world news stories, as well as many of the writings and videos I have sent to the dialogue list, such as the one below.   You don't have to have a Twitter account to go to the IWTV page and read the various news stories.  We are using it as a tool to find investors, so I try to make sure that it is up to date and on target.


      http://twitter.com/IsraelWorldNews



      I think Reb Akiva's post this morning is one that everyone will want to read, so I couldn't help but include it.  Especially after seeing our group's ability to stay united, and I believe, become much stronger over the past few days.  


      Thanks for keeping us together Ross!




      by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths

      We are in the midst of the 3 weeks, traditional times of trouble for the Jewish people. Amazingly, during this traditional time of trouble we find a series of internal troubles this year. Riots in Jerusalem, and Beit Shemesh, and Bnei Brak. Split in the Modern Orthodox community. Even a split in my own shul!

      One of the great strengths of the Jewish people is achdut, unity. We appear to be under spiritual attack during these 3 weeks, an attack aimed directly at our primary strength.

      As they say in the US, it's a long hot summer. Tempers flare and issues that divide us suddenly grow from annoying but ignorable to disturbing and requiring response. We must resist this negative urge, for it is clearly a trick of the yetzer hara (the evil inclination).

      All of us, every single one, have a duty to help dowse the flames of hatred that have arisen during this hot season. We must talk calmly to our fellow and engage our sechal, our intellect, to control our emotions. We must stop and think kindly of our fellow, giving him or her the benefit of the doubt, kav s'chut. And we must make this point to everyone we speak to... our own children, people we meet on the street, at work and at shul.

      The hotheads, the zealots of impure motives, will destroy our strength otherwise. And even saying "G-d help us" then won't help, for our individual voices are not heard when we're fighting with each other.

      Yes, Hashem ya'a'zor - G-d should help, but bein odom l'chavero, between people, we must also. 




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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 08:35:44 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:35:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue]Books/programs that were helpful to me in the beginning
	and now
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2263EE8CAFD49C28C5311580CF9406D@BatYah>

These we found helpful in the VERY beginning (which is 7 years now): 

Too Long in the Sun by Richard Rives
Come out of her my people by C.J. Koster
Fossilized Customs by Lew White
Why Kosher by Web Hulon

Then we read:
The Hebrew Yeshua vs the Greek Jesus by Nehemia Gordon
Israel Revealed by Batya Wooten
Who is Israel and why you need to know by Batya Wooten
Restoring Israels Kingdom by Angus Wooten
Let Them Measure the Pattern by Web Hulon

Most recently I have read/am reading (in addition to our weekly studies):
Restoring Abrahamic Faith by James Tabor
Discovering the Locations of the Temple Complex by Joe Good and Nolan Armstrong
Re-reading Let them measure the pattern by Web Hulon

The Biggies for Studying:
The best switch for me was getting The Scriptures by ISR and also a Stone Edition Tanach and Chumash

This list is recommended by our teacher here at Beth Lechem:

Strongs Concordance
Englishmans Concordance
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Ungers Dictionary
Tyndales
Vines 
Hebrew/English Dictionary
In the Garden of Torah
Tell it from the Torah

We also use PC Study Bible, which is a wonderful program, it has Strongs and Englishmans in it.

There is a free program called E Sword which we found when we were first starting out and I think it is a great program as well. You can download several translations of the scriptures, as well as dictionaries and it has a Strongs Concordance also. There is a macro you can download that works with Microsoft Word so that you can input the scripture verses without copying and pasteing.

I hope this is helpful. Have a blessed day in YHWH!

BatYah Spiker
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: kim alvarado 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books


  I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path?


  Kim 


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From webhulon at msn.com  Tue Jul 21 09:18:06 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:18:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
In-Reply-To: <A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907181444n2a2b1e86h77e15af1e4b4a155@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W89710BF293A3BD7CC75D8C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907181946q281309achda030e3c3b82e174@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY107-W269A59408C2CA111848F80C51C0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0907201510h51b9b90ai39c972c50b17df34@mail.gmail.com> 
	<A91B5390-C950-49C4-A964-75D6EB72BD99@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W44C3183A221382C844E7ABC51A0@phx.gbl>


James,

Todah for attaching the "Sons" article.  I have taught some of this but never have I seen it quite so concise, organized and easy to follow.  I also do not agree with all of it, but it is a valuable teaching.

Web 


 


From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:05:47 -0400

El in Hebrew really means "Power," so yes, there other "powers" or 'ehohim in the universe, including those some call "angels." The Most High EL sits in the council of the Elohim, etc. These are also called the "sons of Elohim" in some passages. It is a complex subject but fascinating and the "one God" idea does not refer to "existence" but devotion and sovereignty as I understand things. A study of 'elohim makes this clear, and as you know, it is even used for human "powers," i.e., officials and judges.


An interesting study on this is the one by David Sielaff. I attach it here. I don't agree with all of it but most of the relevant texts are brought out and it makes an interesting study.



James



_________________________________________________________________
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From beartrm at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 10:35:52 2009
From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] For Susan
In-Reply-To: <8C01BF63285F4E5089BD50A45A7B57BC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <45017.17691.qm@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Betty & Catherine,
? Thank you for the heart felt words of encouragement.? I dont's know how many times I have read the Psalms but I have just finished rereading Ps.18 and you are so right Bety as to how amazing HaShem's love and comfort are. Ps.18:18 "They confronted me in the day of my calamity.? But the Lord was my stay."? This speaks volumes to all who are going through any kind of turmoil in their life.? I will continue to praise HaShem and give Him thanks for my deliverance in all situations that are adverse in my life.
? Thank you again for the words of encouragement and your prayers.
?
Shalom,? Susan

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] For Susan
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 12:40 AM








Susan, below is an excerpt from an email I sent quite some time ago.? I hope you will take it to heart and let it encourage you through your pain?I am with Kim in praying that you be able to be med free without pain?am praying for a refuah shleimah ( a complete recovery)
?
SUSAN, I was so touched by your post in which you shared how you were in a wheel chair, yet you undauntedly went about your life trying to bring HaShem?s ?light? into the world around you!
I found an amazing verse in the Psalms several months back that I do not believe I ever saw before?it is Psalms 18:29?the verses surrounding it are beautiful?in fact the whole chapter is magnificent?after all the number 18 in Hebrew is ?Chai,? meaning life!? 
But for the sake of brevity and time constraints, I will let you read it.? I believe it is very appropriate in this time in history because it is not only speaking of Israel as a ?light in the darkness,? but also those who have continued to remain upright and merciful and pure and those who have ?kept the ways of HaShem...?? There is a parallel verse in II Samuel 22:29 (In fact, the entire chapter is almost duplicated in the text!)? 
Ps 18:29 ?For Thou wilt light my candle; HaShem my G-D will enlighten my darkness!?
?
This verse has blessed me over and over and I have been led to share it with Kim and with Pat and Sherry and others, and now I want to share it with you especially Susan, because it is so very appropriate for you and for all of us who are bonded together with you in HaShem ?and for all Israel as our candles struggle and flicker and fight to remain not only lit, but bright!
?
So please take it to heart?Catherine?s email below speaks so much truth?just continue to let HaShem light your candle and in doing so will enlighten your darkness! ?And together, if we remain close and united like the candles on the Menorah, we will all turn out flames inward, to the Center candle, which stands for HaShem, and thus continually shine forth!
?
My love and prayers to you and to all?
?
Pray for the Peace of Yerushalayim!
?
Elisheva/Betty
?



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Lost.
?
Your light is shining on us all Susan. ?We are so lucky to have you here. ?You're such a special person - Greatly loved! ?HaShem's glory is shining bright in you!
?
I SO hope we can meet one day.
?
We love you. ?Catherine x
?
?
?
Elisheva/Betty
?
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 11:10:06 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:10:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS2374FF27025AB9436E667FBA1A0@phx.gbl>

Some of the most profound books that I studied were:  

The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop  - This book is a godsend for the Christian.  It is written by the late Reverend Alexander Hislop, and covers in minute detail the distinctly pagan origins of sacred Christian tradition.   It made me realize that what I was hoping to offer the Jews (in my misguided missionary zeal) was the very idolatries of the ancient pagans which HaShem had repeatedly forbidden to Israelites.

Those Incredible Christians by Hugh Schonfield -   Another "must read," this book is an incredible eye-opener for the Christian.  Hugh Schonfield, a Jewish man, became a Christian.  His parents actually considered him dead for what he had done in betraying his people.  This book is about what he learned as he studied the origins of Christianity.  Here is a very brief description from the publisher:
       
"A fascinating reconstruction of the events surrounding the formation of the Church in the first hundred years of its existence. He gives a clear explanation of the individual contributions of Paul and John, the chief theologians, and describes the factions and rivalries, the bid for power by the church of Rome, the forgery of documents (some of them in the New Testament itself), and he deals fully with the conflict between the early Christians and the Roman Empire." 

Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer -  This is an in-depth study guide to his "Let's Get Biblical" audio series.  On the cover of the book, it quotes,  "ANYONE WHO SAVES A SINGLE JEWISH SOUL IS AS IF HE HAS SAVED AN ENTIRE WORLD."  (Talmud Sanhedrin 37a).  There is quite obviously a contradiction in the Christian concept of saving a Jewish soul versus the Jewish concept, and the gulf between these two concepts becomes clear in Rabbi Singer's work.   For those who love to go line upon line through the Scriptures, this book is for you!

ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING JAMES TABOR EVER WROTE!  -  We are so blessed to be able to read James's books and actually come to him with our questions as we Dialogue here.  His latest offering, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, lays things out in such an easy and orderly manner.   James restores the long overdue justice and integrity due Jesus, the Torah observant Jew, who would be mortified at the very thought of people worshipping him alongside the L-RD G-d Almighty.

Great suggestion, Kim!

Love,

Avigail/Pat


From: kim alvarado 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books


I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path? 


Kim 


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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 12:56:54 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS2374FF27025AB9436E667FBA1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <103740.27089.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

This is such a good question Kim! I get this question a lot lately from those coming out of Christianity with that fog eyed look. Books that had a profound effect on me at the beginning of my journey would not neccessarily be ones that I would recommend now as I now do not totally agree with.
?
Restorahation by D. Thomas Lancaster was a simple read that clued me in to that something needed to be restored that I didn't realize was lost. Also Our Father Abraham by Wilson.
?
Now I usually suggest, interestingly enough, the words of Yeshua only in the NT, and to read them remembering that we follow One God who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
?
Moshe Chaim Luzzatto's The Way of God is awesome.
?
Of course, The Tanak is #1!
?
Susie

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] meaningful books
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 9:10 AM



Some?of the most profound books that I studied were:? 
?
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop? - This book is a godsend for the Christian.? It is written by the late Reverend Alexander Hislop, and covers in minute detail the distinctly pagan origins of sacred Christian tradition.?? It made me realize that what I was hoping to offer the Jews (in my misguided missionary zeal) was the very idolatries of the ancient pagans which?HaShem had repeatedly forbidden to?Israelites.
?
Those Incredible Christians by Hugh Schonfield -? ?Another "must read," this book is an incredible eye-opener for the Christian.??Hugh Schonfield, a Jewish man, became a Christian.? His parents actually considered him dead for what he had done in betraying his people.? This book is about what he learned as he studied the origins of Christianity.? Here is?a very brief?description from the publisher:
???????
"A fascinating reconstruction of the events surrounding the formation of the Church in the first hundred years of its existence. He gives a clear explanation of the individual contributions of Paul and John, the chief theologians, and describes the factions and rivalries, the bid for power by the church of Rome, the forgery of documents (some of them in the New Testament itself), and he deals fully with the conflict between the early Christians and the Roman Empire." 

Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer -? This is an in-depth study guide to his "Let's Get Biblical" audio series.? On the cover of the book, it quotes,? "ANYONE WHO SAVES A SINGLE JEWISH SOUL IS AS IF HE HAS SAVED AN ENTIRE WORLD."? (Talmud Sanhedrin 37a).? There is quite obviously a contradiction in the Christian concept of saving a Jewish soul versus the Jewish concept, and the?gulf between these two concepts becomes clear in Rabbi Singer's work.?? For those who love to go line upon line through the Scriptures, this book is for you!
?
ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING JAMES TABOR EVER WROTE!? -? We are so blessed to be able to read James's books and actually come to him with our questions as we Dialogue here.? His latest offering, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, lays things out in such an easy and orderly manner.?? James restores the long overdue justice and integrity?due Jesus, the Torah observant Jew, who would be mortified?at the very thought of?people worshipping him alongside the L-RD G-d Almighty.
?
Great suggestion, Kim!
?
Love,
?
Avigail/Pat




From: kim alvarado 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books

I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path. ?Also which books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path? 


Kim?



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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:25:23 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:25:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Reminder
Message-ID: <832687.86604.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Doug Allen is going in for surgery today so remember to lift him up in prayer.


      
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 21 14:19:29 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:19:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Reminder
In-Reply-To: <832687.86604.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <832687.86604.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7D23114CC48A4EA28F8E04A6AC7A11F7@bettylaptop>

Yes, have been praying for Doug and also for Susan.  Thanks for the
reminder, Susie.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:25 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Reminder

 


Doug Allen is going in for surgery today so remember to lift him up in
prayer.

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Jul 21 14:43:23 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:43:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
Message-ID: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>

Roger has been having really intense headaches and is set up for a brain
scan tomorrow at 1:00pm and also a CT scan for possible pre-stroke symptoms.
We would greatly appreciate prayers.

 

May HaShem blessings be upon you all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 21 14:48:41 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:48:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
In-Reply-To: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
References: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <A500456F-062B-41B0-9822-E7D4B1D3A239@earthlink.net>

Praying for you Betty Kay, and dear Roger of course.

James the brother...


On Jul 21, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Betty K Givin wrote:

> Roger has been having really intense headaches and is set up for a  
> brain scan tomorrow at 1:00pm and also a CT scan for possible pre- 
> stroke symptoms.  We would greatly appreciate prayers.
>
> May HaShem blessings be upon you all,
>
> Elisheva/Betty
>
> _______________________________________________

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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 17:59:00 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
In-Reply-To: <BDF6E8D7AC6748598FAFBBF5B21C20F2@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <41677.65887.qm@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Well I don't know about anyone else but after reading this I am not sure if this guy thinks that YHVH the most High El was present at the creation of man or if He left the task up to someone else?
?
Susie

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:


From: Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 4:46 AM








Copy on the way. catherine
?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:38 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
?
For some reason I can't see the attachment that James added to his post. ?Can someone perhaps email it to me?separately?

(Thanks!)
?



Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. Get Them Now
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 21 18:18:53 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:18:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
In-Reply-To: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
References: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS13BDFA6C4B8E133E8B2BCFBA1A0@phx.gbl>

Praying for Roger and for you, Dear One.  Asking HaShem to hold you both in the Palm of His Hand.

Love to you both,

Pat


From: Betty K Givin 
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER


Roger has been having really intense headaches and is set up for a brain scan tomorrow at 1:00pm and also a CT scan for possible pre-stroke symptoms.  We would greatly appreciate prayers.

 

May HaShem blessings be upon you all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 



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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 18:37:53 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
In-Reply-To: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <834664.99239.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

done!

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 12:43 PM








Roger has been having really intense headaches and is set up for a brain scan tomorrow at 1:00pm and also a CT scan for possible pre-stroke symptoms.? We would greatly appreciate prayers.
?
May HaShem blessings be upon you all,
?
Elisheva/Betty
?
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Jul 21 21:23:58 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:23:58 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
In-Reply-To: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
References: <484DDCC97BC349CAA1AECD6B0B9FA430@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <4C5E67B7B62644B4ADC04309FFB04345@TESTPC>

We will be prayin betty.

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty K Givin
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER

 

Roger has been having really intense headaches and is set up for a brain
scan tomorrow at 1:00pm and also a CT scan for possible pre-stroke symptoms.
We would greatly appreciate prayers.

 

May HaShem blessings be upon you all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 22 05:28:48 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:28:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
Message-ID: <SNT108-W5988B9774A730073AC6BC0C81B0@phx.gbl>


This is my 'dream' topic!  I will defiantly try the books you've all suggested so far (I've suggested them to my mum as well who is just about to finish 'The Lord's Prayer' and has loved every page! The only ones I can add are ones I have 'mentioned before.  Robert Alters translation of the Torah and Psalms, and James books!  There are many others, but I'll have to have a think and search of my book case! xx
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger: Happy 10-Year Anniversary?get free winks and emoticons.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 22 05:39:46 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:39:46 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] PRAYER REQUEST FOR ROGER
Message-ID: <SNT108-W470DF81E94F56E1C2F30BEC81B0@phx.gbl>


oh Betty!  how Distressing!  I pray it's nothing serious.  I know you have both been working very hard lately.  Maybe it is the stress from this that has been causing these pains?  My dad would get very bad headaches when he was under stress, and when he finally retired, the headaches disappeared completely.  I will pray for Roger and You with all my heart.  Please let us know what happens!
Much much much love,
Catherine
_________________________________________________________________
Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more.
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 22 05:57:28 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:57:28 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Malachi 1:11 - David Sielaff (can't see attachement)
Message-ID: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>


I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it.
I've been slowly reading Karen Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet).  Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 22 06:19:48 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>

I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which  
he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes  
the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have  
discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to  
cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing  
projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some  
of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work  
but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions,  
outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to  
say her insights would not be valuable.

James

On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

> I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the  
> time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm  
> still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure  
> what to make of it.
>
> I've been slowly reading Karen Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not  
> even half way through yet).  Just wondering if anyone has any strong  
> opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a  
> clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She  
> makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure  
> whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
>
> With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.  
> _______________________________________________

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From webhulon at msn.com  Wed Jul 22 06:42:59 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:42:59 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
In-Reply-To: <FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>
References: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>
	<FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W34C1810D7E9D10EAEB687CC51B0@phx.gbl>


Shalom,

For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of how early Yisraelites saw things.  This can help us to understand other passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.  These all seem to accept the fact that there are other dieties.  

 

Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his understanding.  This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through these processes.

 

I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon, as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us re-examine the beliefs that we do hold.


The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
Web 


 


From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim

I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable. 


James



On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it.


I've been slowly reading Karen Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet).  Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.


With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. _______________________________________________


_________________________________________________________________
Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 22 11:05:51 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:05:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
In-Reply-To: <FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>
References: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>
	<FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1190975627E0B36B2CBA19BA1B0@phx.gbl>

James, the Masoretic text is not as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls text, is it, so the DDS would be deemed authoritative?  I believe I have heard that no one knows from where/when the Masoretic text actually originated, and have also heard that the Hebrew Scriptures were more fluid before cannonization around 100 CE.   Just wondering if those statements are considered true by scholars?  Also, the DDS that Sielaff uses for DT 32:9 (on page 8 of his article), exchanging the Masoretic which says, " He set the borders of the people, according to the number of the sons of Israel" for the DDS, "He set the borders of the people, according to the number of the Sons of Elohim" makes sense in the context of other things HaShem says about Israel being His own particular inheritance, but wanted to ask if you too favor the DDS rendering?

If the DDS is actually older and therefore preferable, then the whole "Bible Code" thing goes out the window because it is based upon the Masoretic, right?  

Thank you (I hope I'm not asking too much),

Pat


From: James Tabor 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim


I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.  


James


On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:


  I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 


  I've been slowly reading Karen Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet).  Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. _______________________________________________





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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 22 13:33:00 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <758124.25230.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I wasn't sure this was on the SWW but I wanted to tell Tracy Osborne 
?
Happy?50th??Birthday!? 
?
?
Margie


      
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Jul 22 13:40:14 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:40:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <758124.25230.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <758124.25230.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907221140u315e8b94pe4edfe7fd5afa510@mail.gmail.com>

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TRACEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Even though I have the pleasure of
spending your birthday here with Margie & JoJo In Alabama, I wanted to make
sure everyone knew your big birthday!!

    "Sweet Home Alabama"
                      * Hanoch
*
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Margie Creech <creechmargie at yahoo.com>wrote:

>   I wasn't sure this was on the SWW but I wanted to tell Tracy Osborne
>
> Happy 50th  Birthday!
>
>
> Margie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Jul 22 15:37:35 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:37:35 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] (no subject)]
Message-ID: <4A67788F.10007@westnet.com.au>

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From: Margie Creech <creechmargie at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul 22 20:44:52 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:44:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A67C094.8070300@mts.net>

Hi to all

I am quite interested to know what really has triggered the interest 
down the ancient path, for you others, and realize that  for some of us, 
the same  interest likely is not what we end up with as the most 
influential books  any more. Although  these first impressions may 
always stay very meaningful, but with me, most meaningful books now  
have come to be from a very isolated as yet, group of books. I used to 
despise Jews, that is, those orthodox ignorants I thought. They were 
being made fun of by  very  great scholars, whom I  would respect as 
really knowing what they had been  getting a hold on to, through 
academic learning.

Quite often though I would get burned in the end. ( a very useful 
experience though ) Going through these fires of testing, I learned more 
and more, that to hold meat, they did not have to be highly acclaimed 
scholars among the nations of the world. Now what I find is really meaty 
stuff, comes from the despised Jews. They don't have to be a certain 
branch only. But it seemed like the Jewish people are not looked down on 
or despised  for nothing. They are to be a light to the nations, and as 
yet, the majority of the nations do not know what Jewels they are. And 
likely don't even want to know. The cherished writings of Rabbi Nachman 
have more and more meaning to me. This real meaty stuff is sometimes too 
deep for me to get much out of it. But Jewish leaders that have joy 
(Simchah), peace, (shalom) and faith in Hashem (emuna) and the love of 
Hashem that the Patriarchs had flowing from their heart, all seem to 
have such a high regard to one like Rabbi Nachman, or all those that 
really have the roots of faith most Jewish leaders revere.

I understand now, that world peace, with the coming of the Messiah, will 
come from the faithfulness of the Jews of our day, despised as they may 
be yet, but I sense that once we, with them together will have been 
through the testing fires of tribulation yet to come, We may one day 
count them the real Jewels.
Some of them are:
The Trail to Tranquility by Lazer Brody. ( Designed for readers of all 
backgrounds......a path to attaining inner peace)
The Garden of Peace  by Rabbi Shalom Arush. having become an over night 
best seller.... A marital guide For Men
The Tales of Rabbi Nachman
The Wings of the Sun by Avraham Greenbaum  " The basic cause of illness, 
and the great healer is Joy"
GOLD From The Land of Israel   of the writings of Rabbi Abraham Isaac 
HaKohen Kook ( new light on weekly Torah portion.
Likutey Moharan,  I have only volume 1 yet, of some 13 I think (just got 
it ) a guide for the contemporary spiritual around the confusions and 
deceptions of the modern world to faith, truth, and devotion to God.

I also just got a little pocket size book "COURAGE Don't give up, 
Despair does not exist at all!" A real Jewel.

Some of these I have not read yet, but really look forward to reading them.

Cornie


 

kim alvarado wrote:
> I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been 
> meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which 
> books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down 
> this path?
>
> Kim 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul 22 20:48:54 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:48:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbis sign letter to Obama
Message-ID: <4A67C186.30303@mts.net>

Hi all, In a recent e-mail it was asked: " What meaningful books are we 
reading," I imagine the Rabbi's who are signing this letter below will 
be very well acquainted with many of the books I mentioned in my last 
e-mail.

Cornie




6. 250 Rabbis Sign Letter to Obama: Hands off Jerusalem
by Gil Ronen 250 Rabbis Sign Letter to Obama

Heads of the Pikuach Nefesh rabbinical committee have begun collecting 
the signatures of rabbis in Israel on a letter to United States 
President Barack Obama. The letter demands that Obama cease talking 
about ending Jewish construction in Jerusalem and stop pressuring Israel 
in that direction.

In a reference to the upcoming "nine days" which culminate in Tisha 
B'Av, the rabbis tell Obama that "during these days, in which the Jewish 
people mourns the destruction of Jerusalem and marks the disgraceful 
memory of its destroyers, we are certain that you, Mr. Barack Obama, do 
not want to enter that disreputable list of those who raise their hand 
to strike Jerusalem and those who live in it."

We are certain that you, Mr. Barack Obama, do not want to enter that 
disreputable list of those who raise their hand to strike Jerusalem and 
those who live in it.



The rabbis note that during his visit to the Middle East, Obama showed 
"impressive erudition" in the Koran. "As one who is familiar with the 
Koran, you surely know that the city of Jerusalem is not even mentioned 
in it once," they said.

*Jews pray towards one place

*"The Arab and Muslim world never recognized Jerusalem as belonging to 
it," the letter went on. "On the other hand, all of the world's nations 
knew for thousands of years that the Jews pray towards one place only -- 
the holy city of Jerusalem."

The rabbis added that even putting aside the city's enormous sanctity 
and importance for the Jewish people, there is no realpolitik logic 
behind any concession to the PA. "Since Israel began negotiations, 
withdrawals and concessions to the Palestinians, the entire world is 
witness to the justice of the Jewish Law (Halacha) which determines that 
any such concession will entail another round of bloodshed and deepen 
mistrust and dangers," they agreed.



The rabbinical letter ends with a clear request: "If you, Mr. Obama. 
Wish to leave any chance at all for peace and quiet in the Middle East, 
take your hands off the Holy City of Jerusalem right now!"

Two hundred and fifty rabbis have signed the appeal, and efforts are 
being made to collect the signatures of almost every single rabbi in 
Israel before the letter is sent to Washington.
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From cormary at mts.net  Wed Jul 22 21:25:14 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W470D3E35D502BF75D4C51BC51D0@phx.gbl>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>	<COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY107-W470D3E35D502BF75D4C51BC51D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A67CA0A.7050007@mts.net>

Web

The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from Rabbi 
Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you said, or 
that I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know you.  Except 
you seemed to be a bit new on this list , to put a complaint in on how 
we others were responding to what you thought  Ross was expecting of us 
others, and to be honest about how i felt about that, I would have to 
say, it just irked me a bit, possibly in a wrong way, just wondering why 
you would feel like bossing us others around, as it seemed to me!

 Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect 
Ross' reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have 
justified you to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong about this.

Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference group 
at that time. And most likely got a good impression from what you were 
teaching.  But I forgot what it was. I would be interested if you had 
been on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,  are you of the same 
faith of Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what happened with 
that group?

Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning.

Cornie




Web Hulon wrote:
> Cornie,
> Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you 
> asked me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have 
> implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I have 
> abused someone verbally?  Please let me know where you are coming from.
>
> Web
>
>
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400
>
> Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a 
> wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this. 
>  
> Avigail/Pat
>
> *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:cormary at mts.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
> *To:* Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] verbal abue
>
> Dear Web and all
> Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. 
> Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe 
> Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel 
> that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt 
> each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The 
> differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we 
> all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles 
> that would just bring us into a one fold mentality.
>
> I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness 
> that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each 
> other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which 
> I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look 
> alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each 
> others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing 
> to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for 
> having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. 
> I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, 
> being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here 
> is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
>
> *The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 *
>  
> There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah -- between man and Hashem 
> (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and 
> fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, 
> loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three 
> Weeks, it's especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man 
> and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of 
> insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
>  
> Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an 
> eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to 
> another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture 
> of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than 
> eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing 
> something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always 
> forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now 
> placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That's 
> no simple task.
>  
> In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not 
> bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that 
> the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, 
> sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word 
> of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is 
> making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by 
> turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of 
> your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This 
> mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the 
> "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most 
> violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash 
> on the violator. Let me give you an example -- the Gemara teaches that 
> if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to 
> the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another 
> person is very serious.
>  
> Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that 
> murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of 
> public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees 
> the person that caused them the grief, so it's as if they suffer the 
> pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13^th CE sage Rebbe 
> Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the 
> Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it's better for a person to 
> jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound 
> exaggerated?
>  
> As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as 
> much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon -- when people 
> make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas -- Shabbat, kashrut, 
> mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, /adam 
> l'chavero/ -- man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? 
> The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character -- 
> to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. 
> The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations 
> between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her 
> character. For example, you can't be a /tzaddik/ -- even if you know 
> the Gemara by heart -- if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
>  
> Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me -- not a religious 
> person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a 
> ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single 
> engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably 
> plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like -- he told 
> me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he 
> hasn't spoken to her. "There you go," I said -- nothing saddens a wife 
> like the verbal freeze -- "if you sadden her, don't expect your life 
> to be a rose garden. This is no joke."
>  
> Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to 
> me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman 
> had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher 
> from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes 
> that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12^th grade 
> class. Sara, then a 12^th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By 
> that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that 
> ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher 
> returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and 
> apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been 
> feeling well lately -- please forgive me!" The teacher never once 
> suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to 
> tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave 
> blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.
>  
> Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a 
> connection between her not having children and between her deceiving 
> the teacher. She didn't know what to do. "No problem, " I said. "The 
> Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do -- take 10 people to 
> the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness." Sara did, and 
> within one month, she became pregnant.
>  
> A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he 
> can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read 
> The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still 
> feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else 
> especially sad. He told me that he had an 11^th grade math teacher 
> that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the 
> book to try and make the teacher quit. "There's the culprit," I told 
> him. "Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if 
> you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart -- you'll be in trouble."
>  
> This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting 
> other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. 
> Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep 
> spiritual debt -- the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and 
> if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an 
> entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires 
> of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a 
> soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think 
> that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in 
> actuality, it's suicide.
>  
> Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the 
> underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is 
> elaboration. Let's engrave that on our hearts, amen.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Windows Live^(TM) Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web's latest 
> sports videos. Check it out. 
> <http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports> 
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Jul 23 04:36:38 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:36:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W34C1810D7E9D10EAEB687CC51B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W33CD946175DB044EFFAEC2C81B0@phx.gbl>
	<FAC6D980-071E-4F15-A06E-31FD8EB3748D@earthlink.net>
	<BAY107-W34C1810D7E9D10EAEB687CC51B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F6C71AD79B124FDF88FFB4732AF2E814@bettylaptop>

Web and all, I believe it was Kim that pointed out that Yitro was going
through a progression in his understanding of YHVH and it made me think and
comment along these same lines.we have all gone through a progression in our
understanding of HaShem.  If we hadn't we certainly would not be where we
are today.  

 

As far as the understanding of YHVH in relationship to the elohim, it is
very complex, and I am not sure any of us has a crystal clear answer, but
that shouldn't keep us from delving into our Tanakhs and studying this
concept and others that may seem foreign to us.  And in our studies, we can
never divorce the texts that we read from the existing culture(s) of the
day.

 

HaShem challenges us in Jeremiah 9:22-23

"Koh amar YHVH" (Thus says HaShem, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in
his riches; but let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and
knows Me, that I am HaShem who exercise faithful love, justice and
righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says HaShem).

 

And as far as our beliefs go, I am of the opinion that we definitely need to
re-examine them and allow them to be challenged.thus we have this dialogue,
and it is a good thing.  I like the Socrates quote.

 

Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:43 AM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim

 

Shalom,
For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of
how early Yisraelites saw things.  This can help us to understand other
passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from
Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.  These all seem to accept the
fact that there are other dieties.  
 
Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his
understanding.  This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through
these processes.
 
I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon,
as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that
this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us
re-examine the beliefs that we do hold.

The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
Web 


 

  _____  

From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim

I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he
surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the
subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed
this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via
e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it
would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the
future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach
is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call
"Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.  

 

James

 

On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

 

I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd
love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the
process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 

 

I've been slowly reading Karen Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half
way through yet).  Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the
author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her
credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical
conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.

 


  _____  


With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos.
<http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/>
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  _____  

BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it
now.
<http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_
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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 23 06:19:51 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:19:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - Happiness Milestones
In-Reply-To: <MAIL05Dvwn7L85thyWp000a8d59@mail05.feedblitz.com>
References: <MAIL05Dvwn7L85thyWp000a8d59@mail05.feedblitz.com>
Message-ID: <4A684757.5090904@mts.net>

Hey there, all of you, could we use encouragement to HAPPINESS?  Maybe 
this is one area where you are all contentedly immersed, deep into what 
beams forth to others around you. Well, sorry, but I need more and more 
to be delving into emuna, yes, i know what it is, that is why I need 
more. But here are some examples by Rabbi Lazer Brody.

Wishing you all happiness beyond expression.

Cornie




FeedBlitz wrote:
>
>  
>
> Your email updates, powered by FeedBlitz <http://www.feedblitz.com>
>
>  
> Here are the latest updates for *cormary at mts.net*
>
>
>     *"Lazer Beams <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/>"* - 1
>     new article
>
>    1. Happiness Milestones <#40199_0>
>    2. More Recent Articles <#40199_recap>
>    3. Search Lazer Beams <http://www.feedblitz.com/f?Search=40199>
>
>
>       *Happiness Milestones
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/Hbxwu5Y3luU/happiness_miles.html>*
>
> The entire purpose of all my books, CDs, and lectures is to help 
> people live healthier and happier lives by strengthening emuna and 
> getting closer to Hashem. Some folks measure success in money and 
> fame; money doesn't mean much to me except for being able to produce 
> another CD or to be able to send spiritual care packages to GIs in 
> combat zones or to the terminally ill that the doctors have given up on. 
>
> A well-known Israeli personality recently visited me at my home to 
> discuss his battle with chronic depression. The individual makes about 
> $160K a year, which is an astronomical sum in Israel. Yet, he and his 
> wife are constantly overdrawn at the bank. He sat down at my Shabbat 
> table, looked around our simple living room which is really nothing 
> but walls filled with books, and said, "It's so calm and peaceful here 
> - I feel more relaxed already!" I told him that the walls of a 
> person's home absorb peace and holiness, as well as the opposite, G-d 
> forbid. My so very wonderful wife Yehudit and I try to maintain an 
> atmosphere of spiritual fresh air in our humble but happy home.
>
> Talking to Hashem, seeing His wisdom in every creation, and learning 
> His Torah make me happy. Also, hearing your good news. Since the month 
> of Av is a time when we need encouragement, I want to share with you a 
> few choice happiness milestones of fellow Beams readers, that have 
> resulted from their listening to our books and CDs:
>
> * Dennis from the USA has been cold turkey on alcohol for 6 months now.
>
> * RS from South Africa has traded his former addiction to porn sites 
> on the web with Tikkun Klali, mikva, daily personal prayer, and 
> Arush-Brody CDs - he writes me that he hasn't looked at an immodest 
> picture in over 6 weeks
>
> * David and wife have scrapped their plans for divorce. They just 
> finished learning 30 minutes of "The Trail to Tranquility" together 
> every night, and they've just started learning The Garden of Emuna.
>
> * RT from Ramat HaSharon and Michael from Haifa haven't seen shrinks 
> or taken pills ever since they started listening to the Emuna-series 
> CDs several months ago. Michael says that without the CDs, he would 
> have had a nervous breakdown during the recent economic squeeze.
>
> * More than 4 Beam-reader families have strengthened their emuna and 
> have cast birth control aside.
>
> * More than 6 Beam-reader families have discontinued the use of 
> Ritalin on their children with encouraging results.
>
> * 9 months ago, the doctors told Morris from the UK that he had 3 
> months to live; smiling Morris is still with us, putting on tefillin 
> and talking to Hashem for an hour every day. He no longer needs blood 
> transfusions.
>
> * William from Florida was unemployed for 3 years. His confidence was 
> shot and so was his marriage. A month after he began listening to our 
> CDs (which he couldn't even afford at first; Emuna Outreach sent him 
> his first three CDs as a gift, thanks to your generous donations) and 
> talking to Hashem every day for an hour of personal prayer, he landed 
> a great job at $8K more than he had ever earned annually before. He 
> writes, "Rabbi Lazer - tell everybody that I said that emuna works 
> miracles!" Tell it to the people, William!
>
> And more... The above list doesn't include a long list of outright 
> miracles that people have written me about since I took their 
> kvittlach to Uman this past Shavuot. These are the type of things that 
> make me the happiest person on earth. When your goal in life is emuna, 
> you walk around with a sparkle in your eyes and a smile on your lips 
> all day long. Thank You, Hashem - for everything. And thanks to you, 
> dear friends and readers, for sharing your wonderful news.
>
>
> ? Email to a friend 
> <http://www.feedblitz.com/f/f.fbz?Fwd2FriendEdit=40199;172514;http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/Hbxwu5Y3luU/happiness_miles.html;Happiness%20Milestones;2148618> 
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>       More Recent Articles
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>     * Hashem's Justice in the UK
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/siv2lsrXkRU/hashems-justice-in-the-uk.html>
>     * Live Report from Honduras: Emuna Under Fire
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/_L-1nU-P__c/live-report-from-honduras-emuna-under-fire.html>
>     * Two-edged Dagger
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/TPXAZ8DzXG8/twoedged-dagger.html>
>     * Coincidence: There's No Such Thing
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/HMBVf8QU3Jc/coincidence-theres-no-such-thing.html>
>     * Survival in 10 Easy Steps
>       <http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/typepad/pGFj/%7E3/ZefimwhHidc/survival-in-10-easy-lessons.html>
>
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 07:19:47 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:19:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
Message-ID: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte (yep,
that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a very,
very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of hugs
from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)

 For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
experience, it was SO delicious.

  LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45 days
until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)

   Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
        *Hanoch*
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 23 07:22:37 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:22:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - Happiness Milestones
In-Reply-To: <4A684757.5090904@mts.net>
References: <MAIL05Dvwn7L85thyWp000a8d59@mail05.feedblitz.com>
	<4A684757.5090904@mts.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS21418DA291F6A44B6054C8BA180@phx.gbl>

Your FeedBlitz UpdatesSo with you, Cornie...........  Rabbi Brody is such an inspiration.  I too NEED to be listening to his CD's and reading all his articles.  BARUCH HASHEM for this wonderful teacher!

Right back at ya with wishes for happiness beyond expression!  May HaShem hold us all in the Palm of His Hand.

Love,

Avigail/Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:19 AM
To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - Happiness Milestones


Hey there, all of you, could we use encouragement to HAPPINESS?  Maybe this is one area where you are all contentedly immersed, deep into what beams forth to others around you. Well, sorry, but I need more and more to be delving into emuna, yes, i know what it is, that is why I need more. But here are some examples by Rabbi Lazer Brody.

Wishing you all happiness beyond expression.

Cornie




FeedBlitz wrote: 
   



        Here are the latest updates for cormary at mts.net



        "Lazer Beams" - 1 new article

          1.. Happiness Milestones 
          2.. More Recent Articles 
          3.. Search Lazer Beams 
        Happiness Milestones
        The entire purpose of all my books, CDs, and lectures is to help people live healthier and happier lives by strengthening emuna and getting closer to Hashem. Some folks measure success in money and fame; money doesn't mean much to me except for being able to produce another CD or to be able to send spiritual care packages to GIs in combat zones or to the terminally ill that the doctors have given up on. 



        A well-known Israeli personality recently visited me at my home to discuss his battle with chronic depression. The individual makes about $160K a year, which is an astronomical sum in Israel. Yet, he and his wife are constantly overdrawn at the bank. He sat down at my Shabbat table, looked around our simple living room which is really nothing but walls filled with books, and said, "It's so calm and peaceful here - I feel more relaxed already!" I told him that the walls of a person's home absorb peace and holiness, as well as the opposite, G-d forbid. My so very wonderful wife Yehudit and I try to maintain an atmosphere of spiritual fresh air in our humble but happy home. 



        Talking to Hashem, seeing His wisdom in every creation, and learning His Torah make me happy. Also, hearing your good news. Since the month of Av is a time when we need encouragement, I want to share with you a few choice happiness milestones of fellow Beams readers, that have resulted from their listening to our books and CDs:



        * Dennis from the USA has been cold turkey on alcohol for 6 months now.



        * RS from South Africa has traded his former addiction to porn sites on the web with Tikkun Klali, mikva, daily personal prayer, and Arush-Brody CDs - he writes me that he hasn't looked at an immodest picture in over 6 weeks



        * David and wife have scrapped their plans for divorce. They just finished learning 30 minutes of "The Trail to Tranquility" together every night, and they've just started learning The Garden of Emuna.



        * RT from Ramat HaSharon and Michael from Haifa haven't seen shrinks or taken pills ever since they started listening to the Emuna-series CDs several months ago. Michael says that without the CDs, he would have had a nervous breakdown during the recent economic squeeze.



        * More than 4 Beam-reader families have strengthened their emuna and have cast birth control aside.



        * More than 6 Beam-reader families have discontinued the use of Ritalin on their children with encouraging results.



        * 9 months ago, the doctors told Morris from the UK that he had 3 months to live; smiling Morris is still with us, putting on tefillin and talking to Hashem for an hour every day. He no longer needs blood transfusions.



        * William from Florida was unemployed for 3 years. His confidence was shot and so was his marriage. A month after he began listening to our CDs (which he couldn't even afford at first; Emuna Outreach sent him his first three CDs as a gift, thanks to your generous donations) and talking to Hashem every day for an hour of personal prayer, he landed a great job at $8K more than he had ever earned annually before. He writes, "Rabbi Lazer - tell everybody that I said that emuna works miracles!" Tell it to the people, William!



        And more... The above list doesn't include a long list of outright miracles that people have written me about since I took their kvittlach to Uman this past Shavuot. These are the type of things that make me the happiest person on earth. When your goal in life is emuna, you walk around with a sparkle in your eyes and a smile on your lips all day long. Thank You, Hashem - for everything. And thanks to you, dear friends and readers, for sharing your wonderful news.





        ? Email to a friend ? Article Search ? Related ?  ?
           



          More Recent Articles
            a.. Hashem's Justice in the UK 
            b.. Live Report from Honduras: Emuna Under Fire 
            c.. Two-edged Dagger 
            d.. Coincidence: There's No Such Thing 
            e.. Survival in 10 Easy Steps 

       





            


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 23 07:27:37 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:27:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Progress Reports?
Message-ID: <COL119-DS24E57DAAB1CD41B06C8D9FBA180@phx.gbl>

Hi All,

Have been praying and am so wanting to hear from you.

Can anyone get in touch with Doug to find out how he is doing after surgery?

Susan, I continue to pray for the pain you have been enduring and praying that you will no longer need medication for it.

Betty, when will Roger get the results of his tests that he went in for yesterday?  Am praying for relief for him from the headaches.

Getting ready to leave for the day, but just wanted to check in.

Love,

Avigail/Pat
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From rossknichols at me.com  Thu Jul 23 07:29:38 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:29:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3345A9B-0A02-40EC-9A35-D9EC3C7C566A@me.com>

Are you going to the conference?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to  
> Charlotte (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to  
> wish Maddie Cole a very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and  
> Dave, please giver her lots of hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo,  
> Tracy & I  :-)
>
>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama -  
> Chilton County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for  
> fresh Peach ice cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was  
> truly, a religious experience, it was SO delicious.
>
>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then  
> 45 days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>
>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>         Hanoch
> _______________________________________________
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 10:38:55 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:38:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Worth watching
Message-ID: <2030.37086.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Shalom All,
Joe posted this at one time but I'm posting it again for the new members and it is worth watching again.? It is loaded with understanding as to what is going on today in Israel.? 
May we all continue praying for the peace of Jerusalem.
?
Shalom,
Margie
?
?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3235423378789294307&hl=en


      
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Jul 23 11:25:54 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:25:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] ROGER UPDATE
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS24E57DAAB1CD41B06C8D9FBA180@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS24E57DAAB1CD41B06C8D9FBA180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <61A781528D1D45539E9A6952B3AEE445@bettylaptop>

BARUCH HASHEM!  We just heard from Roger's neurologist.  His scans were
normal!  What a relief.  Now all we have to do is find out the source of the
headaches and partial numbness on his left side. 

 

Thanks everyone for your prayers!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Progress Reports?

 

Hi All,

 

Have been praying and am so wanting to hear from you.

 

Can anyone get in touch with Doug to find out how he is doing after surgery?

 

Susan, I continue to pray for the pain you have been enduring and praying
that you will no longer need medication for it.

 

Betty, when will Roger get the results of his tests that he went in for
yesterday?  Am praying for relief for him from the headaches.

 

Getting ready to leave for the day, but just wanted to check in.

 

Love,

 

Avigail/Pat

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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 11:55:21 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 47-50
Message-ID: <124503.87105.qm@web37303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom everyone,
If you get the time, please listen to Rabbi Tovia Singer and David Solomon speak on Isaiah 47-50.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1189

It is something you won't want to miss!
Also, there is a big sting going on in New York today involving several Rabbis. ?Please keep an eye out for any backlash. ?Prayer would be a good thing.
Cody


      
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From webhulon at msn.com  Thu Jul 23 16:37:05 2009
From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:37:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <4A67CA0A.7050007@mts.net>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
	<COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY107-W470D3E35D502BF75D4C51BC51D0@phx.gbl>
	<4A67CA0A.7050007@mts.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W29F61F8926635EA3778220C5180@phx.gbl>


Shalom Cornie,

 

No problem.  It is a very common trait among folks to not like correction.  If you noticed, Ross confirmed that he was saying as I had thought and then he backed down when folks complained.  What justified me to remind you was that his request was being nearly completely ignored and, being a leader and a shepherd, this bothered me.  

 

This from my original post:

Let?s ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to review the purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living room.
 

I quote Ross' response when he said, "I did however have a different vision for the dialogue than the shape that it has taken on."  He also said "I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This at last I thought would give people a place to share with others."

 

I was apparently correct in interpreting his reasons.

 

As to Moshe K., I believe that the group fell apart.  I ended my association with them when  they began to insist that people believe in the deity of Yahoshua. They knew from the beginning that I did not believe this.  Things really started getting shaky when I taught on the main stage at the last KC conference. I taught on national vs. personal salvation, or maybe I should say national rather than personal salvation.

I have been teaching Torah every Shabbat for 13 years.  I have been instrumental in establishing a community of like-minded folks that LIVE the Torah rather than just talking and dreaming about it.

 

I have been a member of this list since 12/08 and I did not realize that some folks have  tenure and free speech while others do not.  That too is OK.  Unlike most of the people on this list, I do have a real live face-to-face community.  I don't need cyber fellowship.  There are always folks to pray and help and support in our community.  I joined this list under the impression that it would be, as advertised, a place for discussing Biblical topics. I have a lot to add to such a list. Much to my disappointment this list is not as advertised. 

 

I can understand how folks need more from the list, but I don't. And I know that ultimately the internet will not be enough for anyone truly seeking to return to Torah.  This must be done face to face, without computers to hide behind.

 

As to "Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning," you should have considered and ASKED if you had confusion, rather than suggesting that I am abusive for having RIGHTLY interpreted what Ross was asking and besides, you posted this AFTER Ross had clarified that it was his intention.

 

Actually Cornie I should thank you.  I have been looking for a reason to unsubscribe.  It has become overly annoying and is affecting my shalom. I have heard you described as "the heart of the list" and it is obvious that this is true,as your post has been here all day and no one else apparently had a problem with your judgment.  I don't want to be a part of this clique masquerading as a community.  I didn't like cliques in high school and I don't like it now.  If you would like to communicate further with me please do so by personal email.

 

Ross I really believe that you should add a warning to folks to not subscribe if they have a problem with an inbox full of birthday greetings and internet articles. 

 

Web

 

 22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
From: cormary at mts.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Web

The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from Rabbi Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you said, or that I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know you.  Except you seemed to be a bit new on this list , to put a complaint in on how we others were responding to what you thought  Ross was expecting of us others, and to be honest about how i felt about that, I would have to say, it just irked me a bit, possibly in a wrong way, just wondering why you would feel like bossing us others around, as it seemed to me! 

 Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect Ross' reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have justified you to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong about this.

Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference group at that time. And most likely got a good impression from what you were teaching.  But I forgot what it was. I would be interested if you had been on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,  are you of the same faith of Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what happened with that group? 

Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning.

Cornie




Web Hulon wrote: 



Cornie,
Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you asked me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I have abused someone verbally?  Please let me know where you are coming from.

Web 


 


From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400


Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this.  
 
Avigail/Pat




From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one fold mentality. 

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

Cornie





The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 
 
There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah ? between man and Hashem (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it?s especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
 
Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That?s no simple task.
 
In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example ? the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another person is very serious.
 
Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person that caused them the grief, so it?s as if they suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it?s better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?
 
As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon ? when people make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas ? Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero ? man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character ? to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik ? even if you know the Gemara by heart ? if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
 
Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me ? not a religious person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like ? he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. ?There you go,? I said ? nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze ? ?if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke.?
 
Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately ? please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.
 
Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. ?No problem, ? I said. ?The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do ? take 10 people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness.? Sara did, and within one month, she became pregnant.
 
A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. ?There?s the culprit,? I told him. ?Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart ? you'll be in trouble.?
 
This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt ? the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.
 
Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let?s engrave that on our hearts, amen.




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From madelineccole at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 16:53:14 2009
From: madelineccole at gmail.com (Madeline Cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:53:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>

Very few people know this, but I do actually read the dialogue. I'm just
very secretive about it.  ;)



On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte (yep,
> that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a very,
> very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of hugs
> from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)
>
>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
> County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
> cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
> experience, it was SO delicious.
>
>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45
> days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>
>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>         *Hanoch*
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 23 17:25:37 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:25:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abuse
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W29F61F8926635EA3778220C5180@phx.gbl>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
	<COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY107-W470D3E35D502BF75D4C51BC51D0@phx.gbl>
	<4A67CA0A.7050007@mts.net>
	<BAY107-W29F61F8926635EA3778220C5180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <34176B8E-51D9-4AAF-A529-4CD3344A2567@earthlink.net>

Hey Web please stay for a bit and let's work through this. I would  
defy anyone to say or imply that anything you honestly expressed, was  
verbal abuse. That is absurd. I took your initial post as expressing a  
kind of amazement that people had basically ignored Ross's earlier  
post. I think the Dialogue list can be and in some ways has been an  
amazing avenue for "Dialogue." I don't know the solution to the  
perfect "internet list" but I think quality posts with substance and  
thought are the key and it seemed to me that after the latest round of  
clarifications there was a decided turn in this direction. I do think  
your face-to-face lived Torah context is essential, at whatever level  
various ones of us can manage, but I also think the internet  
discussion format is a wonderful gift/tool that can bind us together  
in fruitful exchanges over amazing distances, time zones, etc. No one  
has "tenure and free speech" over anyone else and you have the perfect  
right to speak and share your perceptions. I hope you will communicate  
off-list with Ross or me (not that I have official control here, but I  
do have some ideas) and hang with us so we can work this through. I  
would not take a lack of response to Cornie's post as anything other  
than people often having incredibly busy days and I know nothing of  
Cornie or anyone else being the "heart of the Dialogue" list. I know I  
was not able to get to a computer today until just now, since 6am this  
morning. I do know, and surely we have all experienced this, that e- 
mail as a medium is probably one of the easiest avenues over which  
good people misunderstand one another. I am not sure why that is the  
case but I have had my own share of posts in which I felt what I  
meant, intended, or thought I said did not come through as I would  
have wanted.

I am truly looking foward to our time together on Sunday. I was with  
Nehemia and Keith this morning on NPR and I thought the broadcast went  
really well. Not sure if you all get WFAE as far south as Lexington  
but we can get links posted once the station puts up the program.

Anticipating the best from all of us,

James


On Jul 23, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Web Hulon wrote:

> Shalom Cornie,
>
> No problem.  It is a very common trait among folks to not like  
> correction.  If you noticed, Ross confirmed that he was saying as I  
> had thought and then he backed down when folks complained.  What  
> justified me to remind you was that his request was being nearly  
> completely ignored and, being a leader and a shepherd, this bothered  
> me.
>
> This from my original post:
> Let?s ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to  
> review the purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that  
> he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural  
> dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully  
> suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living  
> room.
>
> I quote Ross' response when he said, "I did however have a different  
> vision for the dialogue than the shape that it has taken on."  He  
> also said "I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This at  
> last I thought would give people a place to share with others."
>
> I was apparently correct in interpreting his reasons.
>
> As to Moshe K., I believe that the group fell apart.  I ended my  
> association with them when  they began to insist that people believe  
> in the deity of Yahoshua. They knew from the beginning that I did  
> not believe this.  Things really started getting shaky when I taught  
> on the main stage at the last KC conference. I taught on national  
> vs. personal salvation, or maybe I should say national rather than  
> personal salvation.
>
> I have been teaching Torah every Shabbat for 13 years.  I have been  
> instrumental in establishing a community of like-minded folks that  
> LIVE the Torah rather than just talking and dreaming about it.
>
> I have been a member of this list since 12/08 and I did not realize  
> that some folks have  tenure and free speech while others do not.   
> That too is OK.  Unlike most of the people on this list, I do have a  
> real live face-to-face community.  I don't need cyber fellowship.   
> There are always folks to pray and help and support in our  
> community.  I joined this list under the impression that it would  
> be, as advertised, a place for discussing Biblical topics. I have a  
> lot to add to such a list. Much to my disappointment this list is  
> not as advertised.
>
> I can understand how folks need more from the list, but I don't. And  
> I know that ultimately the internet will not be enough for anyone  
> truly seeking to return to Torah.  This must be done face to face,  
> without computers to hide behind.
>
> As to "Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning," you  
> should have considered and ASKED if you had confusion, rather than  
> suggesting that I am abusive for having RIGHTLY interpreted what  
> Ross was asking and besides, you posted this AFTER Ross had  
> clarified that it was his intention.
>
> Actually Cornie I should thank you.  I have been looking for a  
> reason to unsubscribe.  It has become overly annoying and is  
> affecting my shalom. I have heard you described as "the heart of the  
> list" and it is obvious that this is true,as your post has been here  
> all day and no one else apparently had a problem with your  
> judgment.  I don't want to be a part of this clique masquerading as  
> a community.  I didn't like cliques in high school and I don't like  
> it now.  If you would like to communicate further with me please do  
> so by personal email.
>
> Ross I really believe that you should add a warning to folks to not  
> subscribe if they have a problem with an inbox full of birthday  
> greetings and internet articles.
>
> Web
>
>  22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
> From: cormary at mts.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
>
> Web
>
> The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from  
> Rabbi Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you  
> said, or that I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know  
> you.  Except you seemed to be a bit new on this list , to put a  
> complaint in on how we others were responding to what you thought   
> Ross was expecting of us others, and to be honest about how i felt  
> about that, I would have to say, it just irked me a bit, possibly in  
> a wrong way, just wondering why you would feel like bossing us  
> others around, as it seemed to me!
>
>  Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect  
> Ross' reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have  
> justified you to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong  
> about this.
>
> Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference  
> group at that time. And most likely got a good impression from what  
> you were teaching.  But I forgot what it was. I would be interested  
> if you had been on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,  are you  
> of the same faith of Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what  
> happened with that group?
>
> Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
>
> Web Hulon wrote:
> Cornie,
> Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you  
> asked me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have  
> implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I  
> have abused someone verbally?  Please let me know where you are  
> coming from.
>
> Web
>
>
>
> From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400
>
> Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a  
> wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate  
> this.
>
> Avigail/Pat
>
> From: Cornie Reimer
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
> To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
>
> Dear Web and all
> Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this  
> group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers  
> in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.?  
> Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we  
> try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of  
> maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered  
> controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we  
> have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one  
> fold mentality.
>
> I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness  
> that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each  
> other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning,  
> which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike,  
> look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to  
> abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been  
> a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to  
> Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in  
> this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this  
> groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we  
> agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer  
> Brody Shalom to all
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
>
> The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1
>
> There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah ? between man and Hashem  
> (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and  
> fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time,  
> loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three  
> Weeks, it?s especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man  
> and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of  
> insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
>
> Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an  
> eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to  
> another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere  
> gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse  
> than eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for  
> doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is  
> always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must  
> now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem.  
> That?s no simple task.
>
> In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not  
> bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage  
> that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment,  
> sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by  
> word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi  
> is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by  
> turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave  
> of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah.  
> This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the  
> "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the  
> most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative  
> backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example ? the Gemara  
> teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear,  
> he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing  
> grief to another person is very serious.
>
> Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse  
> that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim  
> of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she  
> sees the person that caused them the grief, so it?s as if they  
> suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE  
> sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder".  
> In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it?s better  
> for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another  
> person. Sound exaggerated?
>
> As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as  
> much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon ? when people  
> make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas ? Shabbat, kashrut,  
> mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva,adam  
> l'chavero ? man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva?  
> The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character ?  
> to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more  
> considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern  
> one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the  
> quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be atzaddik  
> ? even if you know the Gemara by heart ? if you cheat someone or  
> don't repay a debt.
>
> Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me ? not a religious  
> person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a  
> ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single  
> engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably  
> plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like ? he told  
> me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he  
> hasn't spoken to her. ?There you go,? I said ? nothing saddens a  
> wife like the verbal freeze ? ?if you sadden her, don't expect your  
> life to be a rose garden. This is no joke.?
>
> Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to  
> me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman  
> had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her  
> teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The  
> story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th  
> grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the  
> assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a  
> terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later.  
> When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the  
> young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara.  
> I haven't been feeling well lately ? please forgive me!" The teacher  
> never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the  
> courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the  
> grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it  
> never existed.
>
> Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's  
> a connection between her not having children and between her  
> deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. ?No problem, ? I  
> said. ?The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do ? take 10  
> people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness.? Sara  
> did, and within one month, she became pregnant.
>
> A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything  
> he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs,  
> read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he  
> still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made  
> someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade  
> math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did  
> every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. ?There?s  
> the culprit,? I told him. ?Until you ask forgiveness from the  
> teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by  
> heart ? you'll be in trouble.?
>
> This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of  
> cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of  
> others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking  
> into deep spiritual debt ? the debt will have to be repaid in this  
> world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly  
> earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight.  
> All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse  
> the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes.  
> Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is  
> good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.
>
> Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the  
> underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is  
> elaboration. Let?s engrave that on our hearts, amen.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest  
> sports videos. Check it out.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.20/2250 - Release Date:  
> 07/20/09 06:16:00
>
>
>
>
> Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite  
> sports pics. Check it  
> out._______________________________________________

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From rossknichols at me.com  Thu Jul 23 17:40:12 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:40:12 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
	<237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1FE2AB2-058E-44EC-9046-5734A6F69664@me.com>

Well if you are teading this....Happy birthday Maddie!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2009, at 4:53 PM, Madeline Cole <madelineccole at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Very few people know this, but I do actually read the dialogue. I'm  
> just very secretive about it.  ;)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young  
> <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to  
> Charlotte (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to  
> wish Maddie Cole a very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and  
> Dave, please giver her lots of hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo,  
> Tracy & I  :-)
>
>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama -  
> Chilton County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for  
> fresh Peach ice cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was  
> truly, a religious experience, it was SO delicious.
>
>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then  
> 45 days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>
>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>         Hanoch
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 18:30:12 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:30:12 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <C3345A9B-0A02-40EC-9A35-D9EC3C7C566A@me.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3345A9B-0A02-40EC-9A35-D9EC3C7C566A@me.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907231630rc2d3c6w4eac7eab7bf44781@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Ross -

     Nice hearing from you pal, I wasn't sure if this was a type of
permitted communication, or not these days....   :-)  Traveling in the Deep
South didn't let me keep up with all the drama - sorry.

    Nope, not staying in Charlotte, back in NYC (just arrived moments
ago..), because the shippers are coming on August 17th, and I have to pack
up my whole life (figuratively and literally) by then.  I did read their
book and found it a good read;  they wrote it in a very engaging style - and
I recommend it.  We can still recommend books, can't we?!?  I'm sorry, I
don't DO very well with *too much* structure.....

   People may pick on you achi (my brother), but I still love ya, and always
will!  :-)  :-)

   B'Ahava Rabba Y'all,
               * Hanoch    *p.s. check out the photo below - Tracy and I had
a GREAT time with Margie & JoJo!!!!!  I LOVE Alabama!!!!!!


On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

>  Are you going to the conference?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte
> (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a
> very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of
> hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)
>
>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
> County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
> cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
> experience, it was SO delicious.
>
>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45
> days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>
>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>         *Hanoch*
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 18:38:44 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:38:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
	<237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907231638t6da76f70kf0a2ca290496053@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Maddie -

     Happy Birthday!!!!!! So, you read the list in secret, never revealing
your true identity, huh?  Are you training for a job in the Mossad or
something?!?  :-)

           *  Hanoch
*
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Madeline Cole <madelineccole at gmail.com>wrote:

> Very few people know this, but I do actually read the dialogue. I'm just
> very secretive about it.  ;)
>
>
>
>   On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>   Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte
>> (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a
>> very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of
>> hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)
>>
>>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
>> County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
>> cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
>> experience, it was SO delicious.
>>
>>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45
>> days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>>
>>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>>         *Hanoch*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 18:39:09 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (creechmargie at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Message-ID: <921367.61234.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


Web and all,
There are those of us that have no fellowship.? I'm sure from what you wrote that you have no understanding?of the loneliness that comes with losing family, friends, and any contact with people.? People who?do not have to believe exactly the way I do, but do believe that Torah has not been done away with.? I live in a small town of 7000 people and we have tried many times to find people to have?relationships in the flesh with, people that do the feast, keep Sabbath, etc.? We even made the mistake of going back into a?christian church.? Through these "cyber" relationships I have found so many people that I love and have filled that loneliness.? People on this list know what the heart of Torah is.? They have called me on the phone?to encourage me and to talk Torah with me.? Had I not been on this list I would not have met Hanoch and Tracy who took time out?of their busy schedules to visit us.? There are so many on this list that have not
 preached Torah to me, but have lived it by caring enough to touch my life personally.? Maybe this dialogue wasn't meant to be a personal, heart touching?heart, place, but that is what it turned into.? Maybe the people on this group actually were led by HaShem to share their hearts here because for me, and I can't speak for everyone, I have learned more about Torah, living Torah,?by the love that has been poured out into my life from this group.? If the Torah is not about sharing and relationships then what is it about? ?I am sorry Ross, if we have turned this dialogue into something it wasn't intended to be, but?I really believe that HaShem has made this a community like no other.? Forgive me if I offended you or anyone else, you know that is not my intent. If?something happens to this group there are people on it that I will always stay in touch with.? They have become part of me.?? Personally, I grieve for what has happened to this
 group.?
?
Margie

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] verbal abue
To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:37 PM




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Shalom Cornie,
?
No problem.? It is a very common trait among folks to not like correction.? If you noticed, Ross confirmed that he was saying as I had thought and then he backed down when folks complained.? What justified me to remind you was that his request was being nearly?completely ignored and,?being a leader?and a shepherd, this bothered me.? 
?
This from my original post:

Let?s ask ourselves a question.? Why did Ross remind the list to review the purpose of the list?? Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.? It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living room.?
I quote Ross' response when he said, "I did however have a different vision for the dialogue than the shape?that it has taken on."? He also said "I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This at last I thought would give people a place to share with others."
?
I was apparently correct in interpreting his reasons.
?
As to Moshe K., I believe that the group fell apart.? I ended my association with them when? they began to insist that people believe in the deity of Yahoshua.?They knew from the beginning that I did not believe this.? Things really started getting shaky?when I taught on the main stage at the?last KC conference.?I?taught?on national vs. personal salvation, or maybe I should say national rather than personal salvation.

I have been teaching Torah every Shabbat for 13 years.? I have been instrumental?in establishing?a community of like-minded folks that LIVE the Torah rather than just talking and?dreaming about it.
?
I have been a member of this list since 12/08 and I did not realize that some folks have? tenure and free speech while others do not.? That too is OK.? Unlike most of the people on this list,?I do have a real live face-to-face community.? I don't need cyber fellowship.? There are always folks to pray and help and support?in our community.? I joined this list under the impression that it would be, as advertised, a place for discussing Biblical topics.?I have a lot to add?to such a list.?Much to my?disappointment this list is not?as advertised.?
?
I can understand how folks need more from the list, but I don't.?And I know that ultimately?the internet?will not be enough for anyone truly seeking to return to Torah.? This must be done face to face, without computers to hide behind.
?
As to "Please forgive me Web, if I missed? your true meaning," you should have considered and ASKED if you had confusion, rather than suggesting that I am abusive for having RIGHTLY interpreted what Ross was asking and besides, you posted this AFTER Ross had clarified that it was his intention.
?
Actually Cornie I should thank you.? I have been looking for a reason to unsubscribe.??It has become overly?annoying and is affecting my shalom. I have heard you described as "the heart of the list" and it is obvious that this is true,as your post has been here all day and no one else apparently had a problem with your judgment.? I don't want to be a part of this clique masquerading as a community.? I didn't like?cliques?in high school and I don't like it now.? If you would like to communicate further with me please do so by personal email.
?
Ross I really believe that you should add a warning to folks to not subscribe if they have a problem with an inbox full of birthday greetings and internet articles.?
?
Web
?
?22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
From: cormary at mts.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Web

The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from Rabbi Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you said, or that I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know you.? Except you seemed to be a bit new on this list , to put a complaint in on how we others were responding to what you thought? Ross was expecting of us others, and to be honest about how i felt about that, I would have to say, it just irked me a bit, possibly in a wrong way, just wondering why you would feel like bossing us others around, as it seemed to me! 

?Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect Ross' reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have justified you to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong about this.

Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference group at that time. And most likely got a good impression from what you were teaching.? But I forgot what it was. I would be interested if you had been on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,? are you of the same faith of Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what happened with that group? 

Please forgive me Web, if I missed? your true meaning.

Cornie




Web Hulon wrote: 



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Cornie,
Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.? I would like to know why you asked me this question about verbal abuse.? Do you think that I have implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?? Do you think I have abused someone verbally?? Please let me know where you are coming from.

Web 


?


From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400


Cornie, this is excellent.? Thank you so much.? Leviticus 25:17 is a wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.? I so appreciate this.? 
?
Avigail/Pat




From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one fold mentality. 

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to respect? each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

Cornie





The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 
?
There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah ? between man and Hashem (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it?s especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.
?
Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher.?The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That?s no simple task.
?
In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example ? the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another person is very
 serious.
?
Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person that caused them the grief, so it?s as if they suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it?s better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?
?
As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon ? when people make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas ? Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero ? man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character ? to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik ? even if you know the Gemara by heart ? if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.
?
Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me ? not a religious person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like ? he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. ?There you go,? I said ? nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze ? ?if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke.?
?
Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately ? please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.
?
Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. ?No problem, ? I said. ?The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do ? take 10 people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness.? Sara did, and within one month, she became pregnant.
?
A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. ?There?s the culprit,? I told him. ?Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart ? you'll be in trouble.?
?
This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt ? the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.
?
Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let?s engrave that on our hearts, amen.



_______________________________________________




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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 23 18:42:55 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:42:55 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Prayer to our Father: The NPR Interview on-line
Message-ID: <C472ECE6-6C62-4829-BEC1-BE159FC236B5@earthlink.net>

This morning Nehemiah Gordon, Keith Johnson, and I were guests on the  
local NPR station/WFAE (90.7FM) "Charlotte Talks" with Mike Collins. I  
thought it went exceptionally well. For those of you who are outside  
the Charlotte area you can listen now on-line by downloading the  
podcast or streaming it live. Just to go the Web site for details:

http://charlotteblogs.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/thursday-july-23-2009-deconstructing-the-lords-prayer/#respond

James Tabor




From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 23 18:52:13 2009
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] ROGER UPDATE
In-Reply-To: <61A781528D1D45539E9A6952B3AEE445@bettylaptop>
References: <COL119-DS24E57DAAB1CD41B06C8D9FBA180@phx.gbl>
	<61A781528D1D45539E9A6952B3AEE445@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <326753.62770.qm@web82503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wonderful news, Betty. Baruch Hashem for answered prayer. Hope they find the source of the headaches and numbness soon.

Kind regards,

Helen




________________________________
From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:25:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] ROGER UPDATE


BARUCH HASHEM!? We just heard from Roger?s neurologist.? His scans were normal!? What a relief.? Now all we have to do is find out the source of the headaches and partial numbness on his left side. 
?
Thanks everyone for your prayers!
?
Elisheva/Betty
?

________________________________

From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Progress Reports?
?
Hi All,
?
Have been praying and am so wanting to hear from you.
?
Can anyone get in touch with Doug to find out how he is doing after surgery?
?
Susan, I continue to pray for the pain you have been enduring and praying that you will no longer need medication for it.
?
Betty, when will Roger get the results of his tests that he went in for yesterday?? Am praying for relief for him from the headaches.
?
Getting ready to leave for the day, but just wanted to check in.
?
Love,
?
Avigail/Pat
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From madelineccole at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 19:08:21 2009
From: madelineccole at gmail.com (Madeline Cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:08:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <855590370907231638t6da76f70kf0a2ca290496053@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370907230519m43babddfp8dcbc95f037e7717@mail.gmail.com>
	<237634100907231453p23f91c6er99610e07898e0066@mail.gmail.com>
	<855590370907231638t6da76f70kf0a2ca290496053@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <237634100907231708t69076ea3o559a4ce63b717fc7@mail.gmail.com>

Hah.  Or SOMETHING...

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Maddie -
>
>      Happy Birthday!!!!!! So, you read the list in secret, never revealing
> your true identity, huh?  Are you training for a job in the Mossad or
> something?!?  :-)
>
>            *  Hanoch
> *
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Madeline Cole <madelineccole at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Very few people know this, but I do actually read the dialogue. I'm just
>> very secretive about it.  ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>   Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte
>>> (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a
>>> very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of
>>> hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)
>>>
>>>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
>>> County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
>>> cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
>>> experience, it was SO delicious.
>>>
>>>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45
>>> days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>>>
>>>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>>>         *Hanoch*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 19:09:55 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 50-52
Message-ID: <469325.44720.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here's ?Rabbi Singer and David Solomon on Isaiah 50-52.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1219


      
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 23 20:16:13 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:16:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 50-52
In-Reply-To: <469325.44720.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <469325.44720.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS16EAC51BB298D9980F2492BA190@phx.gbl>

Listened to the first one.  It was terrific.  Can't wait to hear this one too.  Thanks, Cody!


From: Cody 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:09 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 50-52


      Here's  Rabbi Singer and David Solomon on Isaiah 50-52.


      http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1219 




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From cormary at mts.net  Thu Jul 23 21:57:39 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:57:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS2374FF27025AB9436E667FBA1A0@phx.gbl>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL119-DS2374FF27025AB9436E667FBA1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A692323.1030203@mts.net>

Pat very interesting, your selection of books, the first two books you 
mention are new to me, but they sound like something good for eye 
openers, like the "Jesus Dynasty"  by James Tabor and all; of his books 
I read have been very good.


*Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer, are just great*.

 Dear Pat, it warms my heart when you suggest me to be the heart of the 
List, but I would say Ross and others as well would much sooner fit that 
description. I consider it a special privilege to even be excepted in 
this group.You know what, I would feel much more comfortable to just be 
a nobody, but one that doesn't have to be shunned as a black sheep, that 
hasn't been needful to be kicked out, that is, up to here. I hope I have 
not come across as if I think I am a teacher. I am just sharing what are 
jewels to me, to help to bring joy to the group. Which I realize in the 
realm of Torah students, anyone is good enough to share his or her 
precious trinkets. I guess of late I may have over done it. Please show 
me and help me, any one where I failed.

I cherish you all you all as dear friends, including Web.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote:
> Some of the most profound books that I studied were: 
>  
> *The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop  *- This book is a godsend for 
> the Christian.  It is written by the late Reverend Alexander Hislop, 
> and covers in minute detail the distinctly pagan origins of sacred 
> Christian tradition.   It made me realize that what I was hoping to 
> offer the Jews (in my misguided missionary zeal) was the very 
> idolatries of the ancient pagans which HaShem had repeatedly forbidden 
> to Israelites.
>  
> *Those Incredible Christians by Hugh Schonfield* -   Another "must 
> read," this book is an incredible eye-opener for the Christian.  Hugh 
> Schonfield, a Jewish man, became a Christian.  His parents actually 
> considered him dead for what he had done in betraying his people.  
> This book is about what he learned as he studied the origins of 
> Christianity.  Here is a very brief description from the publisher:
>        
> "A fascinating reconstruction of the events surrounding the formation 
> of the Church in the first hundred years of its existence. He gives a 
> clear explanation of the individual contributions of Paul and John, 
> the chief theologians, and describes the factions and rivalries, the 
> bid for power by the church of Rome, the forgery of documents (some of 
> them in the New Testament itself), and he deals fully with the 
> conflict between the early Christians and the Roman Empire."
>
> *Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer* -  This is an in-depth 
> study guide to his "Let's Get Biblical" audio series.  On the cover of 
> the book, it quotes,  "ANYONE WHO SAVES A SINGLE JEWISH SOUL IS AS IF 
> HE HAS SAVED AN ENTIRE WORLD."  (Talmud Sanhedrin 37a).  There is 
> quite obviously a contradiction in the Christian concept of saving a 
> Jewish soul versus the Jewish concept, and the gulf between these two 
> concepts becomes clear in Rabbi Singer's work.   For those who love to 
> go line upon line through the Scriptures, this book is for you!
>  
> *ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING JAMES TABOR EVER WROTE!  *-  We are so blessed 
> to be able to read James's books and actually come to him with our 
> questions as we Dialogue here.  His latest offering, *Restoring* 
> *Abrahamic Faith*, lays things out in such an easy and orderly 
> manner.   James restores the long overdue justice and integrity due 
> Jesus, the Torah observant Jew, who would be mortified at the very 
> thought of people worshipping him alongside the L-RD G-d Almighty.
>  
> Great suggestion, Kim!
>  
> Love,
>  
> Avigail/Pat
>
> *From:* kim alvarado <mailto:kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] meaningful books
>
> I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been 
> meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which 
> books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down 
> this path?
>
> Kim 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.21/2252 - Release Date: 07/21/09 05:58:00
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>   

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Jul 23 22:31:14 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:31:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W29F61F8926635EA3778220C5180@phx.gbl>
References: <4A645A3E.60506@mts.net>
	<COL119-DS12DBA7287ED8DF3488F09ABA1D0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY107-W470D3E35D502BF75D4C51BC51D0@phx.gbl>	<4A67CA0A.7050007@mts.net>
	<BAY107-W29F61F8926635EA3778220C5180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A1DCA8D2ED6042AE9CF7AA92FD5DDC88@bettylaptop>

Web, I hope that you will reconsider your decision.  I have sent you a
private email.

 

Shalom to you and yours,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:37 PM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] verbal abue

 

Shalom Cornie,
 
No problem.  It is a very common trait among folks to not like correction.
If you noticed, Ross confirmed that he was saying as I had thought and then
he backed down when folks complained.  What justified me to remind you was
that his request was being nearly completely ignored and, being a leader and
a shepherd, this bothered me.  
 
This from my original post:

Let's ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to review the
purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging
everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social
aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was
intended to be the living room.

 
I quote Ross' response when he said, "I did however have a different vision
for the dialogue than the shape that it has taken on."  He also said "I set
up the synagogue without walls for this. This at last I thought would give
people a place to share with others."
 
I was apparently correct in interpreting his reasons.
 
As to Moshe K., I believe that the group fell apart.  I ended my association
with them when  they began to insist that people believe in the deity of
Yahoshua. They knew from the beginning that I did not believe this.  Things
really started getting shaky when I taught on the main stage at the last KC
conference. I taught on national vs. personal salvation, or maybe I should
say national rather than personal salvation.

I have been teaching Torah every Shabbat for 13 years.  I have been
instrumental in establishing a community of like-minded folks that LIVE the
Torah rather than just talking and dreaming about it.
 
I have been a member of this list since 12/08 and I did not realize that
some folks have  tenure and free speech while others do not.  That too is
OK.  Unlike most of the people on this list, I do have a real live
face-to-face community.  I don't need cyber fellowship.  There are always
folks to pray and help and support in our community.  I joined this list
under the impression that it would be, as advertised, a place for discussing
Biblical topics. I have a lot to add to such a list. Much to my
disappointment this list is not as advertised. 
 
I can understand how folks need more from the list, but I don't. And I know
that ultimately the internet will not be enough for anyone truly seeking to
return to Torah.  This must be done face to face, without computers to hide
behind.
 
As to "Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning," you should
have considered and ASKED if you had confusion, rather than suggesting that
I am abusive for having RIGHTLY interpreted what Ross was asking and
besides, you posted this AFTER Ross had clarified that it was his intention.
 
Actually Cornie I should thank you.  I have been looking for a reason to
unsubscribe.  It has become overly annoying and is affecting my shalom. I
have heard you described as "the heart of the list" and it is obvious that
this is true,as your post has been here all day and no one else apparently
had a problem with your judgment.  I don't want to be a part of this clique
masquerading as a community.  I didn't like cliques in high school and I
don't like it now.  If you would like to communicate further with me please
do so by personal email.
 
Ross I really believe that you should add a warning to folks to not
subscribe if they have a problem with an inbox full of birthday greetings
and internet articles. 
 
Web
 
 22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
From: cormary at mts.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue

Web

The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from Rabbi
Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you said, or that
I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know you.  Except you seemed
to be a bit new on this list , to put a complaint in on how we others were
responding to what you thought  Ross was expecting of us others, and to be
honest about how i felt about that, I would have to say, it just irked me a
bit, possibly in a wrong way, just wondering why you would feel like bossing
us others around, as it seemed to me! 

 Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect Ross'
reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have justified you
to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong about this.

Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference group at
that time. And most likely got a good impression from what you were
teaching.  But I forgot what it was. I would be interested if you had been
on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,  are you of the same faith of
Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what happened with that group? 

Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning.

Cornie




Web Hulon wrote: 



Cornie,
Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you asked
me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have implied that
there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I have abused someone
verbally?  Please let me know where you are coming from.

Web 


 

  _____  

From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400

Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a
wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this.  

 

Avigail/Pat

 

From: Cornie <mailto:cormary at mts.net>  Reimer <mailto:cormary at mts.net>  

Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM

To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue

 

Dear Web and all
Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group.
Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe
Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that
there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I
don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our
faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything
alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us
into a one fold mentality. 

I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this
group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a
great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could
have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to
aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or
not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I
am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel
at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this
groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or
not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to
all

Cornie





The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 

 

There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah - between man and Hashem (Shabbat,
tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing
fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.).
This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it's especially important to
discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically
about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.

 

Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash.
But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person,
not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a
severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher.
The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is
relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms
his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing
teshuva to Hashem. That's no simple task.

 

In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring
grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah
expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and
humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a
mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't
like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by
dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a
severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur
Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is
probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous
negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example - the Gemara
teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's
subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another
person is very serious.

 

Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that
murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public
humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person
that caused them the grief, so it's as if they suffer the pain all over
again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls
verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava
Metzia says that it's better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than
to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?

 

As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as
possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon - when people make tshuva, they
run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas - Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning -
but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero - man & fellow man.
Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this
world to perfect our character - to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind
and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that
govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the
quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik - even
if you know the Gemara by heart - if you cheat someone or don't repay a
debt.

 

Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me - not a religious person,
but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money,
but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only
that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what
his marital peace was is like - he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8
weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. "There you go," I said -
nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze - "if you sadden her, don't
expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke."

 

Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She
didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling
that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar,
our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a
term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader,
didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick
with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later.
When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady
and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been
feeling well lately - please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected
that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher
not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for
misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.

 

Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a
connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the
teacher. She didn't know what to do. "No problem, " I said. "The Code of
Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do - take 10 people to the teacher's
gravesite, and ask her forgiveness." Sara did, and within one month, she
became pregnant.

 

A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can
to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden
of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all
the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told
me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and
his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit.
"There's the culprit," I told him. "Until you ask forgiveness from the
teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart -
you'll be in trouble."

 

This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other
people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person
saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt - the
debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to
come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the
records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't
cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes.
Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good
sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.

 

Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying
principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let's
engrave that on our hearts, amen.

 

  _____  


_______________________________________________



  _____  

Windows LiveT HotmailR: Search, add, and share the web's latest sports
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WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports>  it out. 






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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 23 22:45:20 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:45:20 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books
In-Reply-To: <4A692323.1030203@mts.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com><COL119-DS2374FF27025AB9436E667FBA1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4A692323.1030203@mts.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS18003E302293274774C5C8BA190@phx.gbl>

Hi Cornie,

The reason I say that you are our heart is because there is no one I know who is more open than you.  You care about people and you say what is on your mind and in your heart.  I don't for a minute think that you don't and won't cherish Web as you do everyone else.  Writing is a difficult way to make ourselves understood, as odd as that sounds.  I think both you and Web were trying to convey how you were feeling, and if you were face to face, I really don't believe either of you would have a problem becoming great friends.  I just so hope Web sticks it out and discovers that we need him.  So far, I just don't think we are understanding one another that well.  I was sort of surprised that he thought of us as a clique.  That thought never occurred to me.  There are new people coming on board all the time, and we all just seem to glom together.

I feel bad that Web is frustrated.  I often feel that way too.  I was really looking forward to listening in on and maybe even joining in on some of the Biblical conversations he was wanting to have.  It's not too late, and I surely wish he would try.  In fact, I was hoping that an in depth conversation about the Seilaff article on the Sons of G-d that James submitted would develop.  I thought that an extremely powerful article, and it covered things I've thought about for years.  

Cornie, I've read your book.  I appreciate your love and commitment to HaShem, His Torah and His People.  I so hope neither you nor Web backs off in sharing with the rest of us.  I'm totally convinced you both have so much to offer.   We are all focused on the same goal.............GOING HOME!   As we come together, we are going to rub each other the wrong way sometimes, but if we won't give up, we'll forge great bonds with one another.  We'll become the family we are meant to be:  the Re-united Tribes of Israel.

B'Ahavah V'Shalom to all the Family,

Avigail/Pat   


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:57 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] meaningful books


Pat very interesting, your selection of books, the first two books you mention are new to me, but they sound like something good for eye openers, like the "Jesus Dynasty"  by James Tabor and all; of his books I read have been very good. 


Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer, are just great.

 Dear Pat, it warms my heart when you suggest me to be the heart of the List, but I would say Ross and others as well would much sooner fit that description. I consider it a special privilege to even be excepted in this group.You know what, I would feel much more comfortable to just be a nobody, but one that doesn't have to be shunned as a black sheep, that hasn't been needful to be kicked out, that is, up to here. I hope I have not come across as if I think I am a teacher. I am just sharing what are jewels to me, to help to bring joy to the group. Which I realize in the realm of Torah students, anyone is good enough to share his or her precious trinkets. I guess of late I may have over done it. Please show me and help me, any one where I failed.

I cherish you all you all as dear friends, including Web.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote: 
  Some of the most profound books that I studied were:  

  The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop  - This book is a godsend for the Christian.  It is written by the late Reverend Alexander Hislop, and covers in minute detail the distinctly pagan origins of sacred Christian tradition.   It made me realize that what I was hoping to offer the Jews (in my misguided missionary zeal) was the very idolatries of the ancient pagans which HaShem had repeatedly forbidden to Israelites.

  Those Incredible Christians by Hugh Schonfield -   Another "must read," this book is an incredible eye-opener for the Christian.  Hugh Schonfield, a Jewish man, became a Christian.  His parents actually considered him dead for what he had done in betraying his people.  This book is about what he learned as he studied the origins of Christianity.  Here is a very brief description from the publisher:
         
  "A fascinating reconstruction of the events surrounding the formation of the Church in the first hundred years of its existence. He gives a clear explanation of the individual contributions of Paul and John, the chief theologians, and describes the factions and rivalries, the bid for power by the church of Rome, the forgery of documents (some of them in the New Testament itself), and he deals fully with the conflict between the early Christians and the Roman Empire." 

  Let's Get Biblical by Rabbi Tovia Singer -  This is an in-depth study guide to his "Let's Get Biblical" audio series.  On the cover of the book, it quotes,  "ANYONE WHO SAVES A SINGLE JEWISH SOUL IS AS IF HE HAS SAVED AN ENTIRE WORLD."  (Talmud Sanhedrin 37a).  There is quite obviously a contradiction in the Christian concept of saving a Jewish soul versus the Jewish concept, and the gulf between these two concepts becomes clear in Rabbi Singer's work.   For those who love to go line upon line through the Scriptures, this book is for you!

  ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING JAMES TABOR EVER WROTE!  -  We are so blessed to be able to read James's books and actually come to him with our questions as we Dialogue here.  His latest offering, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, lays things out in such an easy and orderly manner.   James restores the long overdue justice and integrity due Jesus, the Torah observant Jew, who would be mortified at the very thought of people worshipping him alongside the L-RD G-d Almighty.

  Great suggestion, Kim!

  Love,

  Avigail/Pat


  From: kim alvarado 
  Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books


  I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path? 


  Kim 


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From doug at dougallen.com  Thu Jul 23 22:48:43 2009
From: doug at dougallen.com (Douglas Allen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:48:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you
Message-ID: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>

I appreciate your kind words and prayers.  They must have worked  
well.  My knee replacement surgery was Tuesday about 2:30 and I came  
home this his afternoon.  My doctor said everything went well, thank  
you!
I have been young, and now am old, but I have not seen the good man  
without help, or his children looking for bread.	    Psalm 37: 25

Douglas Allen
doug at dougallen.com






From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 23 22:59:22 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:59:22 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you
In-Reply-To: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
References: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS28C0252B1AE45DBEDA569BA190@phx.gbl>

BARUCH HASHEM, DOUG!!!!!!!!!!!  This is great news!  We were waiting to hear 
this fabulous report from you!!!!!!!!!!

Much love,

Avigail/Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Douglas Allen" <doug at dougallen.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:48 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you

> I appreciate your kind words and prayers.  They must have worked  well. 
> My knee replacement surgery was Tuesday about 2:30 and I came  home this 
> his afternoon.  My doctor said everything went well, thank  you!
> I have been young, and now am old, but I have not seen the good man 
> without help, or his children looking for bread.     Psalm 37: 25
>
> Douglas Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 23:03:24 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:03:24 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you
In-Reply-To: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
References: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0907232103j736136c0qf779363e222d4b5a@mail.gmail.com>

Baruch HaShem!  Thank you for the report...so glad that all went well for
you...
Kim

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Douglas Allen <doug at dougallen.com> wrote:

> I appreciate your kind words and prayers.  They must have worked well.  My
> knee replacement surgery was Tuesday about 2:30 and I came home this his
> afternoon.  My doctor said everything went well, thank you!
> I have been young, and now am old, but I have not seen the good man without
> help, or his children looking for bread.            Psalm 37: 25
>
> Douglas Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From tammyhulon at msn.com  Thu Jul 23 23:36:28 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:36:28 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Dialogue Group
Message-ID: <BAY111-W462AD64424B017E5B2D0C4D9190@phx.gbl>


Shalom Everyone,
 
I first wanted to let you know that you need not address Web on any further dialogue.  He is no longer on the list.  
 
However, I am at this time.  First, I want to say that I am guilty for not speaking up sooner.  Sometimes I fall into the laziness of letting others (Web, etc.) say what I would really like to say or handle things for me.  This has definitely been one of those times.
 
I have been complaining behind the scenes about the dialogue group for weeks.  Yes, I don't know most of you personally and I see that many of you have become friends, which is great, but I feel like I am reading your personal emails.  I have been having a terrible time trying to read everything.  There is enough to do in a day without having to read so many emails that I can't relate to.  I feel like I am digging through other people?s mail until I can find one that I can relate to and I am not the only one feeling this way.  
 
I have heard so many great ideas about the list come through and I would get excited only to find them totally dismissed by others and even Ross.
 
How do two lists not solve the problem?  I just don't get it.  Why do a few of you not want that?  Could some one explain it?   All it does is organize things a little more.  If your name is on both lists, you get all the commentary and all the extras (well wishes, prayer request, encouragement, kidding around, etc.).  Just like you are getting right now.  But if your name is only on one list, say the commentary list, you just get the commentary, the teachings, the scripture study, etc.  Ross even mentioned it would be great to have all the prayer request in one spot so he could have them more available when he went to pray.  Sounds like a great idea to me.
With two lists everyone wins, no one loses.  
 
I just don't have time to go through 40 emails and search for the substance.  I really want to be a part of this, and I want to learn from you all, but my time is in high demand.  Plus I am sure you all get even more emails from other outside sources that you need to deal with.  Don't you feel like there is so much information bombarding us all the time?  I can't digest it all.  
 
Secondly, the children of Israel, all of us, those seeking the Torah path, have a real need for leaders.  The hard thing is we not only need leaders, but we have to have leaders willing to go where no one has gone before, at least not in hundreds or even thousands of years.  They have to be willing to lead people back into a nation and down a path that is opening up right in front of their feet.  
 
It is kind of like this.  I teach a Hebrew class every week to 7 teenage girls.  They are all smart and I can barely stay one step of head of them.  Because you see, I am learning Hebrew myself.  
 
Our leaders in this move are only a few steps ahead of us, some a few more than others.  But for them to be the leaders that we need, we have got to be the followers that they need.
I see Ross trying to lead this group, but I don't see many of us trying too hard to follow.  Israel, the people of Yosef, have got to learn to let the leaders lead.  Yes, they are going to make some errors, but we have to be there to pick them up and allow them to keep going.  We need leaders.  All of Israel in the wilderness was set up in a wonderful array of leadership, 10's, 50's, 100's, and so on.
So what I am asking is for you to let Ross lead on this dialogue which is exactly what Web was asking.  But I am also asking Ross to lead.  I have copied and pasted below what I found on the Roots of Faith site under the dialogue list drop down.
 
 
?So if you have honest questions about faith related issues and are open to consider the views of others, to constructively and respectfully challenge long established doctrines and dogmas, all the while allowing yourself to be vulnerable and teachable then this list is probably for you. I have to believe that most people try to act with integrity based upon what they see and know at any given time?
 
The above is what we signed up for, don't you agree?  
 
Well, I am not complaining behind the scenes anymore.  I hope it is not too late to rectify this.    
 
Shabbat Shalom,
Tami 
_________________________________________________________________
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Fri Jul 24 00:11:31 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:11:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue
References: <921367.61234.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8E4A4636ED9D40489D1663EEC0E82E45@davesbook>

Hey Margie,

Living Torah.........I don't think we turned this list into something Ross did not want.  After several years of watching this group of folks learn how to communicate and become open and vulnerable to each of our heart felt feelings....... is truly not a work of human minds or leadership.  To stick it out by dialogue, even with the ability to hide behind ones computer,  is not an easy thing.  I pray that folks can work though these life lessons without pulling back.....I have seen many leave and to once again join back in later....and that is a good thing.  

I think your post really touched on the spirit of this e-mail list......and that is what it is, an E-mail list.  It lifts my sprit to read when others on this list have conflicts and then have personnel resolve (on the list, in "public").  

Trust our Creator....He that formed us,  This list is growing, not just with numbers, but in maturity.

Our leaders didn't do it, they just got out of the way........

Our job is to stick!!!!!
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: creechmargie at yahoo.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:39 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] verbal abue


        Web and all,
        There are those of us that have no fellowship.  I'm sure from what you wrote that you have no understanding of the loneliness that comes with losing family, friends, and any contact with people.  People who do not have to believe exactly the way I do, but do believe that Torah has not been done away with.  I live in a small town of 7000 people and we have tried many times to find people to have relationships in the flesh with, people that do the feast, keep Sabbath, etc.  We even made the mistake of going back into a christian church.  Through these "cyber" relationships I have found so many people that I love and have filled that loneliness.  People on this list know what the heart of Torah is.  They have called me on the phone to encourage me and to talk Torah with me.  Had I not been on this list I would not have met Hanoch and Tracy who took time out of their busy schedules to visit us.  There are so many on this list that have not preached Torah to me, but have lived it by caring enough to touch my life personally.  Maybe this dialogue wasn't meant to be a personal, heart touching heart, place, but that is what it turned into.  Maybe the people on this group actually were led by HaShem to share their hearts here because for me, and I can't speak for everyone, I have learned more about Torah, living Torah, by the love that has been poured out into my life from this group.  If the Torah is not about sharing and relationships then what is it about?  I am sorry Ross, if we have turned this dialogue into something it wasn't intended to be, but I really believe that HaShem has made this a community like no other.  Forgive me if I offended you or anyone else, you know that is not my intent. If something happens to this group there are people on it that I will always stay in touch with.  They have become part of me.   Personally, I grieve for what has happened to this group. 

        Margie

        --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com> wrote:


          From: Web Hulon <webhulon at msn.com>
          Subject: RE: [Dialogue] verbal abue
          To: "roots of faith" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
          Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:37 PM


          Shalom Cornie,
           
          No problem.  It is a very common trait among folks to not like correction.  If you noticed, Ross confirmed that he was saying as I had thought and then he backed down when folks complained.  What justified me to remind you was that his request was being nearly completely ignored and, being a leader and a shepherd, this bothered me.  
           
          This from my original post:

          Let?s ask ourselves a question.  Why did Ross remind the list to review the purpose of the list?  Maybe I was wrong in thinking that he was encouraging everyone to spend more time on scriptural dialogue and less on the social aspects, which SWW is wonderfully suited for.  It seems to me that SWW was intended to be the living room.

         
        I quote Ross' response when he said, "I did however have a different vision for the dialogue than the shape that it has taken on."  He also said "I set up the synagogue without walls for this. This at last I thought would give people a place to share with others."
         
        I was apparently correct in interpreting his reasons.
         
        As to Moshe K., I believe that the group fell apart.  I ended my association with them when  they began to insist that people believe in the deity of Yahoshua. They knew from the beginning that I did not believe this.  Things really started getting shaky when I taught on the main stage at the last KC conference. I taught on national vs. personal salvation, or maybe I should say national rather than personal salvation.

        I have been teaching Torah every Shabbat for 13 years.  I have been instrumental in establishing a community of like-minded folks that LIVE the Torah rather than just talking and dreaming about it.
         
        I have been a member of this list since 12/08 and I did not realize that some folks have  tenure and free speech while others do not.  That too is OK.  Unlike most of the people on this list, I do have a real live face-to-face community.  I don't need cyber fellowship.  There are always folks to pray and help and support in our community.  I joined this list under the impression that it would be, as advertised, a place for discussing Biblical topics. I have a lot to add to such a list. Much to my disappointment this list is not as advertised. 
         
        I can understand how folks need more from the list, but I don't. And I know that ultimately the internet will not be enough for anyone truly seeking to return to Torah.  This must be done face to face, without computers to hide behind.
         
        As to "Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning," you should have considered and ASKED if you had confusion, rather than suggesting that I am abusive for having RIGHTLY interpreted what Ross was asking and besides, you posted this AFTER Ross had clarified that it was his intention.
         
        Actually Cornie I should thank you.  I have been looking for a reason to unsubscribe.  It has become overly annoying and is affecting my shalom. I have heard you described as "the heart of the list" and it is obvious that this is true,as your post has been here all day and no one else apparently had a problem with your judgment.  I don't want to be a part of this clique masquerading as a community.  I didn't like cliques in high school and I don't like it now.  If you would like to communicate further with me please do so by personal email.
         
        Ross I really believe that you should add a warning to folks to not subscribe if they have a problem with an inbox full of birthday greetings and internet articles. 
         
        Web
         
         22 Jul 2009 21:25:14 -0500
        From: cormary at mts.net
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue

        Web

        The verbal abuse part 1, was on the same day's news letter, from Rabbi Brody. The topic, verbal abuse, did not come from anything you said, or that I know of you in the past, like I said, I don't know you.  Except you seemed to be a bit new on this list , to put a complaint in on how we others were responding to what you thought  Ross was expecting of us others, and to be honest about how i felt about that, I would have to say, it just irked me a bit, possibly in a wrong way, just wondering why you would feel like bossing us others around, as it seemed to me! 

         Very likely I don't know what you know, about how this would effect Ross' reason for this dialogue group in a wrong way, that would have justified you to remind us about that. I am sorry if I am wrong about this.

        Concerning the KC conferences, I was a member of that conference group at that time. And most likely got a good impression from what you were teaching.  But I forgot what it was. I would be interested if you had been on Moshe K's e-mail list at that time? And,  are you of the same faith of Moshe at that time was? Or would you know what happened with that group? 

        Please forgive me Web, if I missed  your true meaning.

        Cornie




        Web Hulon wrote: 

          Cornie,
          Yes I did teach at the KC conferences.  I would like to know why you asked me this question about verbal abuse.  Do you think that I have implied that there is verbal abuse on this list?  Do you think I have abused someone verbally?  Please let me know where you are coming from.

          Web 


           

----------------------------------------------------------------------
          From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
          Subject: Re: [Dialogue] verbal abue
          Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:15:24 -0400


          Cornie, this is excellent.  Thank you so much.  Leviticus 25:17 is a wonderful Scripture for discussion and learning.  I so appreciate this.  

          Avigail/Pat


          From: Cornie Reimer 
          Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:51 AM
          To: Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
          Subject: [Dialogue] verbal abue


          Dear Web and all
          Web, I don't know you, except for what you have shared in this group. Although it seems to me you may have been one of the speakers in Moshe Kuniochowski's conferences in Kansas City. Is that right.? Do you feel that there is verbal abuse here in this group where we try to hurt each other? I don't think so. To me this is a sign of maturity. The differences of our faith may be considered controversial, why don't we all see everything alike? Couldn't we have such up building articles that would just bring us into a one fold mentality. 

          I don't know if that would have been possible. But the carefulness that this group especially has practiced not to verbally abuse each other, has been a great lesson for me, that I am still learning, which I don't think could have happened if we all would think alike, look alike, speak alike. But to aim to have a uniformity, not to abuse each others thoughts, if we agree or not, seems to me has been a blessing to us all, I sense to Ross as well. I am very grateful to Ross for having given even one like me a chance to feel at home in this group. I have nothing special to say, but I appreciate this groups integrity, being careful to respect  each others view, if we agree or not. Here is a lesson on the danger of abuse by Rabbi Lazer Brody Shalom to all

          Cornie





          The Danger of Verbal Abuse, Part 1 

          There are 2 types of mitzvas in the Torah ? between man and Hashem (Shabbat, tefillin, kashrut, to name a few), and between man and fellow man (dealing fairly in commerce, paying a worker on time, loving our fellow human, etc.). This time of year, during the Three Weeks, it?s especially important to discuss the mitzvas between man and fellow man in general, and specifically about the severity of insulting or causing anguish to one's fellow human.

          Many people bring grief to their fellow human without batting an eyelash. But, most people are unaware that causing pain or grief to another person, not only by verbal insult but even with a mere gesture of the body, is a severe transgression of Torah, even worse than eating something unkosher. The reason is that the teshuva for doing something against Hashem is relatively simple, and Hashem is always forgiving. But, when a person harms his fellow man, he must now placate his fellow man in addition to doing teshuva to Hashem. That?s no simple task.

          In the Book of Leviticus, 25:17, the Torah commands, "You shall not bring grief to your neighbor." Our sages learn from this passage that the Torah expressly forbids all forms of causing embarrassment, sadness, and humiliation to our fellow human, again, not only by word of mouth, but by a mere gesture. In other words, if your rabbi is making a sermon and you don't like what he says, and you react by turning up your nose at him or by dismissing his words with a wave of your hand, you've just committed a severe transgression of Torah. This mitzvah, that's called in Hebrew "Issur Onaat Devarim" or the "prohibition of causing grief to another person" is probably the most violated mitzvah in the Torah, which has a dangerous negative backlash on the violator. Let me give you an example ? the Gemara teaches that if a husband causes his wife to shed even one tear, he's subject to the death penalty. The transgression of causing grief to another person is very serious.

          Our sages explain that verbal insult in certain aspects is worse that murder. Why? A murdered person gets killed once. But the victim of public humiliation relives the verbal attack every time he or she sees the person that caused them the grief, so it?s as if they suffer the pain all over again time after time. Our famous 13th CE sage Rebbe Yehuda Hachassid calls verbal insult "unapparent murder". In fact, the Gemara in tractate Bava Metzia says that it?s better for a person to jump into a fiery furnace than to humiliate another person. Sound exaggerated?

          As a rabbi, and particularly as a rabbi that tries to help people as much as possible, I've noticed a peculiar phenomenon ? when people make tshuva, they run to the man-and-G-d mitzvas ? Shabbat, kashrut, mikva, Torah learning - but they often neglect the real tshuva, adam l'chavero ? man & fellow man. Why do we call that the real tshuva? The answer is that we come to this world to perfect our character ? to be less brutal, less arrogant, more kind and and more considerate. The way a person observes the commandments that govern one's relations between man & fellow man is a barometer to the quality of his or her character. For example, you can't be a tzaddik ? even if you know the Gemara by heart ? if you cheat someone or don't repay a debt.

          Not long ago, a famous Israeli singer came to me ? not a religious person, but getting stronger. He complained that last year he made a ton of money, but in the last two months, he hasn't hooked a single engagement. Not only that, but all his album sales have inexplicably plummeted. I asked him what his marital peace was is like ? he told me that he quarreled with his wife 8 weeks ago, and since then, he hasn't spoken to her. ?There you go,? I said ? nothing saddens a wife like the verbal freeze ? ?if you sadden her, don't expect your life to be a rose garden. This is no joke.?

          Not long ago, a very religious woman, who we'll call "Sara" came to me. She didn't have kids after almost 8 years of marriage. The woman had a feeling that something was connected to the death of her teacher from the seminar, our version of girls high school. The story goes that the teacher gave a term paper assignment to her 12th grade class. Sara, then a 12th grader, didn't prepare the assignment. By that time, the teacher was already sick with a terminal disease that ultimately claimed her life a few weeks later. When the teacher returned the graded term papers, she called the young lady and apologized, "I must have misplaced your paper, Sara. I haven't been feeling well lately ? please forgive me!" The teacher never once suspected that Sara was lying, but Sara didn't have the courage to tell the teacher not to feel bad. The teacher went to the grave blaming herself for misplacing Sara's term paper, when it never existed.

          Sara did serious soul-searching, and told me that she thinks there's a connection between her not having children and between her deceiving the teacher. She didn't know what to do. ?No problem, ? I said. ?The Code of Jewish Law tells you exactly what to do ? take 10 people to the teacher's gravesite, and ask her forgiveness.? Sara did, and within one month, she became pregnant.

          A young man of 18 from LA wrote me crying that he's done everything he can to make teshuva; in addition, he's listened to all our CDs, read The Garden of Emuna, and goes to synagogue every day. Yet, he still feels sadness all the time. I asked him if he ever made someone else especially sad. He told me that he had an 11th grade math teacher that he couldn't stand, and he and his buddies did every prank in the book to try and make the teacher quit. ?There?s the culprit,? I told him. ?Until you ask forgiveness from the teacher, it doesn't matter if you learn whole Talmudic tractates by heart ? you'll be in trouble.?

          This should be a warning to anybody that makes a habit out of cutting other people down, passing slam books, or making fun of others. Whenever a person saddens another person, it's like sinking into deep spiritual debt ? the debt will have to be repaid in this world, and if not, a person will have to come back to this lowly earth for an entire reincarnation just to set the records straight. All the fires of Purgatory and 24 hour-long fasting don't cleanse the blemish to a soul that causing grief to another person causes. Some people think that having a laugh on another person's expense is good sport, but in actuality, it's suicide.

          Rabbi Akiva says that loving one's neighbor as oneself is the underlying principle of the entire Torah, and all the rest is elaboration. Let?s engrave that on our hearts, amen.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

          _______________________________________________



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From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 00:23:36 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <855590370907231630rc2d3c6w4eac7eab7bf44781@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <688289.39992.qm@web112410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Lol Hanoch!
What were you hunting in Alabama?

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:30 PM



Hey Ross - 
?
???? Nice hearing from you pal, I wasn't sure if this was a type of permitted communication, or not these days....?? :-)? Traveling in the Deep South didn't let me keep up with all the drama - sorry.
?
??? Nope, not staying in Charlotte, back in NYC (just arrived moments ago..), because the shippers are coming on August 17th, and I have to pack up my whole life (figuratively and literally) by then.? I did read their book and found it a good read;? they wrote it in a very engaging style - and I recommend it.? We can still recommend books, can't we?!?? I'm sorry, I don't DO very well with too much structure.....
?
?? People may pick on you achi (my brother), but I still love ya, and always will!? :-)? :-)
?
?? B'Ahava Rabba Y'all,
??????????????? Hanoch??? p.s. check out the photo below - Tracy and I had a GREAT time with Margie & JoJo!!!!!? I LOVE Alabama!!!!!!



On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:



Are you going to the conference?

Sent from my iPhone




On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com> wrote:





Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a very, very happy birthday!!!? So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I? :-)
?
?For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.? It was truly, a religious experience, it was SO delicious.
?
? LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45 days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!? :-)
?
?? Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?? Praying for him....
??????? Hanoch

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 24 00:40:13 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:40:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0907232103j736136c0qf779363e222d4b5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
	<1c8dbb6e0907232103j736136c0qf779363e222d4b5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF27D6B081FD452D825A8154B446784B@bettylaptop>

Amein, Doug!  Baruch Hashem!!!  I am so thankful things went well.  Thank
you for keeping us informed.  Now you will be all set for preparing to dance
through all the storms!  Remember?

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Thank you

 

Baruch HaShem!  Thank you for the report...so glad that all went well for
you...

 

Kim

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Douglas Allen <doug at dougallen.com> wrote:

I appreciate your kind words and prayers.  They must have worked well.  My
knee replacement surgery was Tuesday about 2:30 and I came home this his
afternoon.  My doctor said everything went well, thank you!
I have been young, and now am old, but I have not seen the good man without
help, or his children looking for bread.            Psalm 37: 25

Douglas Allen
doug at dougallen.com




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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 24 00:43:57 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:43:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]Books/programs that were helpful to me in the
	beginningand now
In-Reply-To: <C2263EE8CAFD49C28C5311580CF9406D@BatYah>
References: <1c8dbb6e0907202051v59dd8254s50f0af6485abda65@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2263EE8CAFD49C28C5311580CF9406D@BatYah>
Message-ID: <8FD91552A2AE42CAAC696987DE3AEB33@bettylaptop>

Batyah,  this is a wealth of resources!  Thanks so much for sharing.  In
fact, thanks, everyone!

 

Shabbat Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Batyah
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue]Books/programs that were helpful to me in the
beginningand now

 

These we found helpful in the VERY beginning (which is 7 years now): 

 

Too Long in the Sun by Richard Rives

Come out of her my people by C.J. Koster

Fossilized Customs by Lew White

Why Kosher by Web Hulon

 

Then we read:

The Hebrew Yeshua vs the Greek Jesus by Nehemia Gordon

Israel Revealed by Batya Wooten

Who is Israel and why you need to know by Batya Wooten

Restoring Israels Kingdom by Angus Wooten

Let Them Measure the Pattern by Web Hulon

 

Most recently I have read/am reading (in addition to our weekly studies):

Restoring Abrahamic Faith by James Tabor

Discovering the Locations of the Temple Complex by Joe Good and Nolan
Armstrong

Re-reading Let them measure the pattern by Web Hulon

 

The Biggies for Studying:

The best switch for me was getting The Scriptures by ISR and also a Stone
Edition Tanach and Chumash

 

This list is recommended by our teacher here at Beth Lechem:

 

Strongs Concordance

Englishmans Concordance

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

Ungers Dictionary

Tyndales

Vines 

Hebrew/English Dictionary

In the Garden of Torah

Tell it from the Torah

 

We also use PC Study Bible, which is a wonderful program, it has Strongs and
Englishmans in it.

 

There is a free program called E Sword which we found when we were first
starting out and I think it is a great program as well. You can download
several translations of the scriptures, as well as dictionaries and it has a
Strongs Concordance also. There is a macro you can download that works with
Microsoft Word so that you can input the scripture verses without copying
and pasteing.

 

I hope this is helpful. Have a blessed day in YHWH!

 

BatYah Spiker

----- Original Message ----- 

From: kim <mailto:kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>  alvarado 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:51 PM

Subject: [Dialogue] meaningful books

 

I thought it would be interesting for us to post books that have been
meaningful to us on this journey down the ancient path.  Also which books do
you think are good first reads for someone just starting down this path? 

 

Kim 


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 02:54:03 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:54:03 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
In-Reply-To: <688289.39992.qm@web112410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <855590370907231630rc2d3c6w4eac7eab7bf44781@mail.gmail.com>
	<688289.39992.qm@web112410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370907240054n11c4e5a0kcf4f9a6a2641eaf1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not totally sure, but it wouldn't have been from the animal kingdowm....

                   * Hanoch   *:-)

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:23 AM, susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Lol Hanoch!
> What were you hunting in Alabama?
>
> --- On *Thu, 7/23/09, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Heading to Charlotte, bye Alabama...
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:30 PM
>
>
>  Hey Ross -
>
>      Nice hearing from you pal, I wasn't sure if this was a type of
> permitted communication, or not these days....   :-)  Traveling in the Deep
> South didn't let me keep up with all the drama - sorry.
>
>     Nope, not staying in Charlotte, back in NYC (just arrived moments
> ago..), because the shippers are coming on August 17th, and I have to pack
> up my whole life (figuratively and literally) by then.  I did read their
> book and found it a good read;  they wrote it in a very engaging style - and
> I recommend it.  We can still recommend books, can't we?!?  I'm sorry, I
> don't DO very well with *too much* structure.....
>
>    People may pick on you achi (my brother), but I still love ya, and
> always will!  :-)  :-)
>
>    B'Ahava Rabba Y'all,
>                * Hanoch    *p.s. check out the photo below - Tracy and I
> had a GREAT time with Margie & JoJo!!!!!  I LOVE Alabama!!!!!!
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com<http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rossknichols at me.com>
> > wrote:
>
>>  Are you going to the conference?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com<http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=youngbarzel at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Well, Tracy and I are leaving shortly, and I'm on my way to Charlotte
>> (yep, that place in North Carolina), but we all wanted to wish Maddie Cole a
>> very, very happy birthday!!!  So, Sherry and Dave, please giver her lots of
>> hugs from us here - Margie, JoJo, Tracy & I  :-)
>>
>>  For those of you who will be passing through Clanton , Alabama - Chilton
>> County is renowned for its peaches, and JoJo took us out for fresh Peach ice
>> cream last night, for Tracy's birthday.  It was truly, a religious
>> experience, it was SO delicious.
>>
>>   LOTS of articles to post when I get back to NYC.....hey, less then 45
>> days until I go home; for those of you who lost count!  :-)
>>
>>    Hey Betty, how's Roger feeling?  Praying for him....
>>         *Hanoch*
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From dstone34 at cox.net  Fri Jul 24 06:09:59 2009
From: dstone34 at cox.net (Diana Stone)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:09:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Author of A Prayer to Our Father to come to Topeka
Message-ID: <E310AE3B7B7A48789F84458D458BAD79@toshibauser>

Blessings All,

I have an acquaintance here in Topeka who has followed Nehemia Gordon's teachings for a number of years.  Apparently he will be giving a talk in Topeka, Kansas the 2nd week in August.  I am sure Vicky would welcome your attendance if you can make the trip.  For those of you who need a place to stay overnight, I do have a spare bedroom, a sleeping porch, and a futon in my basement for overnight guests.  

Shalom and Blessings,

Diana

 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Vicky Mitchell 
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:58 AM
Subject: Author of A Prayer to Our Father to come to Topeka


Below is a link to a radio interview with the authors of a book on The Lord's Prayer.  

They have been traveling the US making public appearances promoting their book.

Nehemia Gordon (Keith will not be with him) is expected in Topeka the second week 

of Aug.  In the discussion of a meeting room, Nehemia suggested a church facility.

I have contacted Brookwood Covenant Church and asked to use the meeting room

in the back of the Hummer House.  We are waiting to hear back.  Below is the introduction

of the two men for an interview they did on WFAE radio in Charlotte, NC where Keith

Johnson lives.  To read about their book go to their website:

 

http://www.aprayertoourfather.com

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

WFAE 90.7

 

We'll speak with two authors of a book about the Lord's Prayer and its Hebrew roots. 

We'll hear the story of the authors' journey to Jerusalem, through history and across 

different religious beliefs to find common ground.

Guests

Nehemia Gordon - Jewish Bible Scholar, Co-Author of A Prayer to Our Father

Rev. Keith Johnson - Methodist Minister, Co-Author of A Prayer to Our Father

Dr. James Tabor - Chair of the Department of Religious Studies, UNC Charlotte

 

link to radio station:

http://www.wfae.org/wfae/18_93_0.cfm?do=detail&id=10404  

 

 
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From cormary at mts.net  Fri Jul 24 06:37:50 2009
From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:37:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you
In-Reply-To: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
References: <8DBBB7FF-1A75-4562-9C36-3A7002472AF2@dougallen.com>
Message-ID: <4A699D0E.6000207@mts.net>

Sounds great Doug, it seems to me you are a true hearted fighter. If 
more rain comes you will be strengthened to keep on dancing.

Cornie


Douglas Allen wrote:
> I appreciate your kind words and prayers.  They must have worked 
> well.  My knee replacement surgery was Tuesday about 2:30 and I came 
> home this his afternoon.  My doctor said everything went well, thank you!
> I have been young, and now am old, but I have not seen the good man 
> without help, or his children looking for bread.        Psalm 37: 25
>
> Douglas Allen
> doug at dougallen.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.25/2256 - Release Date: 07/23/09 06:02:00
>
>   


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From exodus20 at yhwhisel.com  Fri Jul 24 10:18:47 2009
From: exodus20 at yhwhisel.com (Allen Spiker)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
Message-ID: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>

Shalom all,

This is my first post to the dialogue group. I have subscribed to the digest version for a few months. I find some topics of discussion interesting, but haven?t read a discussion that I felt compelled to contribute to until now.

In this day Yosef needs two things; Leaders & followers:

Leaders whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to lead, teach, & guide followers. Leaders who are not about themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to sacrifice their lives, time & energy in an effort to bring about the gathering of the lost sheep.

Followers whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to be led, taught, and be guided. Followers who are not about themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to be gathered from out of Babylon and apply their skills towards the goal of gathering of the lost sheep, the restoration of Yosef & preparing the way of YHWH's Kingdom on earth.

Ysrael is a stubborn people. They tend to be more like goats than sheep. Study the ways of the Sheppard and learn the intricacies of herding goats, and sheep. This is one of the many teachings I have learned from Web Hulon. See the way of the goat (the loner), how he goes about doing his own thing, by himself. Compare it to the way of the sheep which stick together for companionship and safety.

Take a hard look at yourself; which one are you?

If you?re by yourself, feel lonely, and seek the fellowship of those like you are you a sheep or a goat?

I?ll relate a true life story as an example; a few years ago my wife & I were living in Tucson Arizona. I was employed by the County government making over $23.00 an hour, had excellent benefits and I looked forward to retiring with no worries about money. The Eternal graciously allowed my wife & I to see past the Christian deceptions (all of them!). As most, probably all of you know, the result was alienation from family, friends, sometimes co-workers, people in general, etc. This is called loneliness. We searched locally for anyone who was like us. An area with well over a million people, lo & behold, none of them had given up all of the Christian fabrications, preferring to cast out just enough to ensure that they would not be alone in their beliefs. We began to search the internet for like minded people. We found forums and bulletin boards galore, after a long and exhausting search we found congregation Beth Lechem. We shared Sukkot with them and knew that we belonged. I began making arrangements to move to Columbia South Carolina. I left my family, home, secure job, retirement, benefits, etc. and moved to be with like minded people, shepparded by a great leader and teacher.

Were we sheep, goats or lost sheep? 

A goat would continue in its ways, despite the feelings of loneliness & despair. Finding it preferable to the inconvenience of actually having to do something to change its situation (no matter how easy or difficult).

A lost sheep seeks the safety & community of the sheepfold and knows that the voice of the sheppard means security.

A sheep that does not desire to be in a sheepfold is not a sheep; it is in reality a goat in sheep?s clothing.

Our thoughts, motivations and actions should be towards reuniting Yosef as a people. Everything else is just SELFishness. If everyone desiring the Throne of The Almighty YHWH to be on the earth were to work towards this goal, it would be accomplished.

What we need right now are leaders who are willing to be strong and lead Yosef out of the exile, not bowing to the whim of the people, leading by following in the footsteps of the righteous leaders who came before. Moshe, Yehoshua, etc.

We need followers who are willing to submit to these leaders and follow the righteous path. Not desiring to tear down, but to build up for the sake of the nation.

Take a close look at your situation. Are you a goat, a lost sheep, or a goat in sheep?s clothing? 

There have to be righteous leaders and there have to be righteous followers in order for us to be seen as a people again. 

Does this forum provide for this? Or is it merely a step towards the goal?

A quick note on the leadership abilities of Web Hulon.

I have been under the leadership of Web for over two years now. I have learned a great deal from him, especially in the humility department. Web is devoted to serving the Almighty with his whole heart, mind, soul & strength. He gives 120% towards serving the Eternal. His sword is sharp (his words), they are not wicked. If he speaks/types words, they are for instruction. I used to get embarrassed when he corrected my words or actions which needed correction. I have since grown wiser and learn greatly from my mistakes. I am not like the fool who does not accept correction. Trust me when I say, you?re loss on this list is great. I sincerely hope that lessons are learned from this experience and that teshuvah comes directly on the heels of the learning.

Stepping down from the soapbox.

Allen




From gets52000 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 10:26:32 2009
From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
In-Reply-To: <F6C71AD79B124FDF88FFB4732AF2E814@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <905928.85336.qm@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I have never felt completely sure of who it was that wrestled with Jacob. In reading Sielaff's document I was thinking of these scriptures.
?
I have heard the two main schools of thought on this and have problems with both.
?
Because the Scriptures state that Jacob wrestled with a man(ish) and not an angel(malak) those that lean to the Christian side feel this was God emanating as a man since Jacob states that he saw the face of Elohim. The problem I have with this is is that whomever was wrestling with Jacob was not winning and was concerned about the sun coming up.
?
If one leans to the Judaism explanation that this was an angel on the dark side this would explain the fact that Jacob could be succeeding in the struggle because of his attachment to God and the reason for worrying about dawn. The problem I have with this is , Would an angel be privy to the fact that God was going to change Jacob's name to Israel?
?
Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
?
Susie

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:36 AM








Web and all, I believe it was Kim that pointed out that Yitro was going through a progression in his understanding of YHVH and it made me think and comment along these same lines?we have all gone through a progression in our understanding of HaShem.? If we hadn?t we certainly would not be where we are today.? 
?
As far as the understanding of YHVH in relationship to the elohim, it is very complex, and I am not sure any of us has a crystal clear answer, but that shouldn?t keep us from delving into our Tanakhs and studying this concept and others that may seem foreign to us.? And in our studies, we can never divorce the texts that we read from the existing culture(s) of the day.
?
HaShem challenges us in Jeremiah 9:22-23
?Koh amar YHVH? (Thus says HaShem, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am HaShem who exercise faithful love, justice and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says HaShem).
?
And as far as our beliefs go, I am of the opinion that we definitely need to re-examine them and allow them to be challenged?thus we have this dialogue, and it is a good thing.? I like the Socrates quote.
?
Shalom,
?

Elisheva/Betty
?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:43 AM
To: roots of faith
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
?
Shalom,
For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of how early Yisraelites saw things.? This can help us to understand other passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.? These all seem to accept the fact that there are other dieties.? 
?
Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his understanding.? This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through these processes.
?
I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon, as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us re-examine the?beliefs that we do hold.

The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
Web 


?



From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim

I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.? 

?

James

?


On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:

?

I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 

?

I've been slowly reading?Karen?Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet). ?Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
?



With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and?share your photos.?_______________________________________________
?
?



Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 24 10:42:52 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:42:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim
Message-ID: <BFC161D1-8CFE-41FA-9FF9-B7D61DB45BCF@earthlink.net>

On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire chapter  
of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, "Let Us Cause  
ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative Plural) is read all  
over the world by Jews who follow the annual cycle of readings. The  
words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, as some translations  
show. The text is a Song, referred to subsequently as the "Song of  
Moses." It was recited by Moses under inspiration to the entire nation  
and it reflects the prophetic future of the mission and historical  
fortunes of the Israelite people. One important thing to remember in  
reading this passage is that it is not merely about the Jewish people,  
whose history after the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around  
the tribe of Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel.  
If it is read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast  
in a much different light. These are among the last recorded words of  
Moses.

The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as God  
of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the "father that  
has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the ancient name El  
Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in speaking of the  
Creator (see Gen 14:18-19).

Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in our  
various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and preserved by  
Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic text (MT). There  
is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back to 200 BCE, in Greek,  
that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more recently, there are  
copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have survived as part of the  
library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is most interesting is Dead Sea  
Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy differ in some important ways from  
the Masoretic or traditional text, and its readings are paralleled by  
the Greek Septuagint. These variations have to do with the use of the  
term "sons of Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim.

These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS,  
since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT (Masoretic)  
text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew text is  
understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect.  However, when  
it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy agreed with the  
Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have been given much more  
attention and weight.  Slowly the scholars have begun to have more and  
more respect for the LXX.  By and large it is a very literal  
translation, and there is now every indication that the translators  
were in fact translating a Hebrew original that is different from the  
MT--however, one values it.  In other words, they were not just adding  
things and being sloppy with their translation work.  Often the  
differences are not so important, when we compare the Qumran Hebrew  
Bible with the MT, but in this case these variants seem quite  
significant.  Of course the Qumran copies are older than the MT by  
more than a thousand years, so the discovery of these most ancient of  
Hebrew texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the scholars and  
traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist Christianity).  Here are  
the differences, which I have put in Italics:

MT (Masoretic text) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their  
inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders of  
the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

LXX (Greek) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he  
separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according  
to the number of the angels of God.

Qumran/DSS reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their  
inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds of  
the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim.

Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim"  
passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the  
Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters of  
Adam" are mentioned.

But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of  
the Song.

MT reads:
Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth  
avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to His  
adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people.

LXX (Greek) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the  
angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and  
let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will  
avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and  
recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him;  
and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Qumran/DSS reads:
Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you sons  
of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render  
vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and  
will atone for the land of his people.

As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees with  
the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim."

The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of the  
LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin.

The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of the  
phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one way or  
the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One  
interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the  
other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, from  
Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no doubt  
that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, speak of  
certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of Elohim," but even  
so, the English translation "angel" can be quite misleading, since the  
root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is simple "messenger," that  
is one sent with a mission. In fact, the context in this "Song of  
Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of Elohim" are in fact a lineage  
of human beings, the descendants of whom are the "sons of Israel."  
Thus we get the language of "Is not He your father that has bought  
you," earlier the song, and the clear reference to "avenging the blood  
of his sons," which hardly seems to be a reference to so-called  
"angels."

If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be different  
in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" would in fact be  
the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of Israel" or Jacob,  
his grandson.

There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the  
mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole concept  
of the "hiding of the Face" of God.

Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these textual  
variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX (Septuagint),  
but also in various versions of the MT, would affect something like  
the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My own view is that  
some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that are visible on a  
single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid and hard to deny  
for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to be much affected, if  
at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled out at 50 letter intervals  
at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. The ones I would question are  
those found separated by multiple pages, hundreds, even thousands of  
letters apart. I think those have been shown by mathematicians to be  
bogus and they end up being more like "fortune telling" than anything  
else. That is my view, having followed this rather closely some years  
back when Drosnin hit the scene.



Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom!

James Tabor
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From oneillcody at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 10:46:05 2009
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (Cody)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: ways to teach your kids.
Message-ID: <362156.73863.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Shalom everyone,
I believe, a while back some folks were asking about ways to teach their children to seek Hashem.
If you have kids that are at the iPod age, you
 might introduce them to the singer Matisyahu.
Matisyahu's songs consist of the words of King David, the Prophets, and Torah.
They'll memorize it, sing to it, and
 learn lesson after lesson from it. ?
He has an album "Youth" that has been out a few years (and is a huge hit) and "Light" that is coming
 out August 25th.
Hope this helps,
Cody


      
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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Fri Jul 24 10:28:34 2009
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:28:34 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] The Dialogue Group
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-W462AD64424B017E5B2D0C4D9190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY111-W462AD64424B017E5B2D0C4D9190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200907241546.n6OFkt3e027484@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

Shalom indeed Everyone,

I have been off the list for almost a month now 
due to computer problems and am now trying to 
sift through mountains / hundreds of emails from 
dialogue as well as from many other sources.  As 
Tami so well expresses, I do not likewise have 
the time to sift through all the emails for the 
ones that have to do with the original goal of 
the list.  That goal more or less is  to discuss 
weightier matters related to our regathering, and 
its concomitant understandings and spiritual 
walks. Of course, it is understood that those who 
do not identify with this regathering of the 
tribes per se, may also participate, since 
they  may feel a drawing to that gathering by God 
as well, as explained in Isa. 56.

As this list grows it will be necessary that we 
tighten our limits and direct subjects of more 
social concerns, requests and chit-chat to 
another branch of dialogue or another list, or 
private communication which is fine by me.  Some 
compromises will be necessary as well as 
tolerance for some inevitable stray and 
incidental subjects we would personally not prefer.

Since Ross established this group, it would be 
appropriate to go with his suggestions 
for  limits and his preferred modes of 
participation for the sake of efficiency and 
being on target.  As such, we need to restart 
with a renewal of our original orientation to 
this dialogue group. We cannot sustain the loss 
of Web and others without hurting ourselves not 
to mention those who have left due to this problem.

As with taking any journey, it  is necessary to 
look at our goals from time to time to make sure 
we are making progress, or at least are heading 
into chosen direction.  Let us take this tikkun / 
correction by Tami and Web as a heads-up call to us all.

Steve






At 09:36 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:

>Shalom Everyone,
>
>
>I first wanted to let you know that you need not 
>address Web on any further dialogue.  He is no longer on the list.
>
>
>
>However, I am at this time.  First, I want to 
>say that I am guilty for not speaking up 
>sooner.  Sometimes I fall into the laziness of 
>letting others (Web, etc.) say what I would 
>really like to say or handle things for 
>me.  This has definitely been one of those times.
>
>
>
>I have been complaining behind the scenes about 
>the dialogue group for weeks.  Yes, I don't know 
>most of you personally and I see that many of 
>you have become friends, which is great, but I 
>feel like I am reading your personal emails.  I 
>have been having a terrible time trying to read 
>everything.  There is enough to do in a day 
>without having to read so many emails that I 
>can't relate to.  I feel like I am digging 
>through other people?s mail until I can find one 
>that I can relate to and I am not the only one feeling this way.
>
>
>
>I have heard so many great ideas about the list 
>come through and I would get excited only to 
>find them totally dismissed by others and even Ross.
>
>
>
>How do two lists not solve the problem?  I just 
>don't get it.  Why do a few of you not want 
>that?  Could some one explain it?   All it does 
>is organize things a little more.  If your name 
>is on both lists, you get all the commentary and 
>all the extras (well wishes, prayer request, 
>encouragement, kidding around, etc.).  Just like 
>you are getting right now.  But if your name is 
>only on one list, say the commentary list, you 
>just get the commentary, the teachings, the 
>scripture study, etc.  Ross even mentioned it 
>would be great to have all the prayer request in 
>one spot so he could have them more available 
>when he went to pray.  Sounds like a great idea to me.
>
>With two lists everyone wins, no one loses.
>
>
>
>I just don't have time to go through 40 emails 
>and search for the substance.  I really want to 
>be a part of this, and I want to learn from you 
>all, but my time is in high demand.  Plus I am 
>sure you all get even more emails from other 
>outside sources that you need to deal 
>with.  Don't you feel like there is so much 
>information bombarding us all the time?  I can't digest it all.
>
>
>
>Secondly, the children of <?xml:namespace prefix 
>= st1 ns = 
>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
>/>Israel, all of us, those seeking the Torah 
>path, have a real need for leaders.  The hard 
>thing is we not only need leaders, but we have 
>to have leaders willing to go where no one has 
>gone before, at least not in hundreds or even 
>thousands of years.  They have to be willing to 
>lead people back into a nation and down a path 
>that is opening up right in front of their feet.
>
>
>
>It is kind of like this.  I teach a Hebrew class 
>every week to 7 teenage girls.  They are all 
>smart and I can barely stay one step of head of 
>them.  Because you see, I am learning Hebrew myself.
>
>
>
>Our leaders in this move are only a few steps 
>ahead of us, some a few more than others.  But 
>for them to be the leaders that we need, we have 
>got to be the followers that they need.
>
>I see Ross trying to lead this group, but I 
>don't see many of us trying too hard to 
>follow.  Israel, the people of Yosef, have got 
>to learn to let the leaders lead.  Yes, they are 
>going to make some errors, but we have to be 
>there to pick them up and allow them to keep 
>going.  We need leaders.  All of Israel in the 
>wilderness was set up in a wonderful array of 
>leadership, 10's, 50's, 100's, and so on.
>
>So what I am asking is for you to let Ross lead 
>on this dialogue which is exactly what Web was 
>asking.  But I am also asking Ross to lead.  I 
>have copied and pasted below what I found on the 
>Roots of Faith site under the dialogue list drop down.
>
>
>
>
>
>?So if you have honest questions about faith 
>related issues and are open to consider the 
>views of others, to constructively and 
>respectfully challenge long established 
>doctrines and dogmas, all the while allowing 
>yourself to be vulnerable and teachable then 
>this list is probably for you. I have to believe 
>that most people try to act with integrity based 
>upon what they see and know at any given time?
>
>
>
>The above is what we signed up for, don't you agree?
>
>
>
>Well, I am not complaining behind the scenes 
>anymore.  I hope it is not too late to rectify this.
>
>
>
>Shabbat Shalom,
>
>Tami
>
>
>----------
>Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and 
>share your photos. 
><http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009>See 
>how.
>_______________________________________________
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 24 11:12:40 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:12:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
In-Reply-To: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>
References: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>
Message-ID: <23F61A76-D871-481E-9081-7082DA407DDF@earthlink.net>

Thanks for sharing your insights and wisdom Allen.  I for one think  
the Dialogue list will take care of itself if more than half of the  
people participate and everyone offers what they can, at whatever  
level. I hope to see you all this Sunday at the program here in  
Charlotte, YHVH willing. I can't wait to see you and your whole group.  
Ross is on the road now, as I understand it, making his way northward,  
so we will have representation from down Louisana way as well...I have  
heard word of others coming in from other parts, north, south, east  
and west. Maybe we can have some time to all talk about Sukkoth. I  
know Ross mentioned some of the exciting plans at the beginning of his  
Sabbath lesson last week.

Shabbat Shalom!

James


On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Allen Spiker wrote:

> Shalom all,
>
> This is my first post to the dialogue group. I have subscribed to  
> the digest version for a few months. I find some topics of  
> discussion interesting, but haven?t read a discussion that I felt  
> compelled to contribute to until now.
>
> In this day Yosef needs two things; Leaders & followers:
>
> Leaders whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing  
> to lead, teach, & guide followers. Leaders who are not about  
> themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and  
> follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to  
> sacrifice their lives, time & energy in an effort to bring about the  
> gathering of the lost sheep.
>
> Followers whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are  
> willing to be led, taught, and be guided. Followers who are not  
> about themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH  
> and follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to  
> be gathered from out of Babylon and apply their skills towards the  
> goal of gathering of the lost sheep, the restoration of Yosef &  
> preparing the way of YHWH's Kingdom on earth.
>
> Ysrael is a stubborn people. They tend to be more like goats than  
> sheep. Study the ways of the Sheppard and learn the intricacies of  
> herding goats, and sheep. This is one of the many teachings I have  
> learned from Web Hulon. See the way of the goat (the loner), how he  
> goes about doing his own thing, by himself. Compare it to the way of  
> the sheep which stick together for companionship and safety.
>
> Take a hard look at yourself; which one are you?
>
> If you?re by yourself, feel lonely, and seek the fellowship of those  
> like you are you a sheep or a goat?
>
> I?ll relate a true life story as an example; a few years ago my wife  
> & I were living in Tucson Arizona. I was employed by the County  
> government making over $23.00 an hour, had excellent benefits and I  
> looked forward to retiring with no worries about money. The Eternal  
> graciously allowed my wife & I to see past the Christian deceptions  
> (all of them!). As most, probably all of you know, the result was  
> alienation from family, friends, sometimes co-workers, people in  
> general, etc. This is called loneliness. We searched locally for  
> anyone who was like us. An area with well over a million people, lo  
> & behold, none of them had given up all of the Christian  
> fabrications, preferring to cast out just enough to ensure that they  
> would not be alone in their beliefs. We began to search the internet  
> for like minded people. We found forums and bulletin boards galore,  
> after a long and exhausting search we found congregation Beth  
> Lechem. We shared Sukkot with them and knew that we belonged. I  
> began making arrangements to move to Columbia South Carolina. I left  
> my family, home, secure job, retirement, benefits, etc. and moved to  
> be with like minded people, shepparded by a great leader and teacher.
>
> Were we sheep, goats or lost sheep?
>
> A goat would continue in its ways, despite the feelings of  
> loneliness & despair. Finding it preferable to the inconvenience of  
> actually having to do something to change its situation (no matter  
> how easy or difficult).
>
> A lost sheep seeks the safety & community of the sheepfold and knows  
> that the voice of the sheppard means security.
>
> A sheep that does not desire to be in a sheepfold is not a sheep; it  
> is in reality a goat in sheep?s clothing.
>
> Our thoughts, motivations and actions should be towards reuniting  
> Yosef as a people. Everything else is just SELFishness. If everyone  
> desiring the Throne of The Almighty YHWH to be on the earth were to  
> work towards this goal, it would be accomplished.
>
> What we need right now are leaders who are willing to be strong and  
> lead Yosef out of the exile, not bowing to the whim of the people,  
> leading by following in the footsteps of the righteous leaders who  
> came before. Moshe, Yehoshua, etc.
>
> We need followers who are willing to submit to these leaders and  
> follow the righteous path. Not desiring to tear down, but to build  
> up for the sake of the nation.
>
> Take a close look at your situation. Are you a goat, a lost sheep,  
> or a goat in sheep?s clothing?
>
> There have to be righteous leaders and there have to be righteous  
> followers in order for us to be seen as a people again.
>
> Does this forum provide for this? Or is it merely a step towards the  
> goal?
>
> A quick note on the leadership abilities of Web Hulon.
>
> I have been under the leadership of Web for over two years now. I  
> have learned a great deal from him, especially in the humility  
> department. Web is devoted to serving the Almighty with his whole  
> heart, mind, soul & strength. He gives 120% towards serving the  
> Eternal. His sword is sharp (his words), they are not wicked. If he  
> speaks/types words, they are for instruction. I used to get  
> embarrassed when he corrected my words or actions which needed  
> correction. I have since grown wiser and learn greatly from my  
> mistakes. I am not like the fool who does not accept correction.  
> Trust me when I say, you?re loss on this list is great. I sincerely  
> hope that lessons are learned from this experience and that teshuvah  
> comes directly on the heels of the learning.
>
> Stepping down from the soapbox.
>
> Allen
>
>
> _______________________________________________



From tammyhulon at msn.com  Fri Jul 24 11:21:43 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:21:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
In-Reply-To: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>
References: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W475348622E0AAA646823EAD9190@phx.gbl>


Todah!!  Todah!!  Tami
 
> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:18:47 -0700
> From: exodus20 at yhwhisel.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
> 
> Shalom all,
> 
> This is my first post to the dialogue group. I have subscribed to the digest version for a few months. I find some topics of discussion interesting, but haven?t read a discussion that I felt compelled to contribute to until now.
> 
> In this day Yosef needs two things; Leaders & followers:
> 
> Leaders whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to lead, teach, & guide followers. Leaders who are not about themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to sacrifice their lives, time & energy in an effort to bring about the gathering of the lost sheep.
> 
> Followers whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to be led, taught, and be guided. Followers who are not about themselves, but who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the way it was intended. Willing to be gathered from out of Babylon and apply their skills towards the goal of gathering of the lost sheep, the restoration of Yosef & preparing the way of YHWH's Kingdom on earth.
> 
> Ysrael is a stubborn people. They tend to be more like goats than sheep. Study the ways of the Sheppard and learn the intricacies of herding goats, and sheep. This is one of the many teachings I have learned from Web Hulon. See the way of the goat (the loner), how he goes about doing his own thing, by himself. Compare it to the way of the sheep which stick together for companionship and safety.
> 
> Take a hard look at yourself; which one are you?
> 
> If you?re by yourself, feel lonely, and seek the fellowship of those like you are you a sheep or a goat?
> 
> I?ll relate a true life story as an example; a few years ago my wife & I were living in Tucson Arizona. I was employed by the County government making over $23.00 an hour, had excellent benefits and I looked forward to retiring with no worries about money. The Eternal graciously allowed my wife & I to see past the Christian deceptions (all of them!). As most, probably all of you know, the result was alienation from family, friends, sometimes co-workers, people in general, etc. This is called loneliness. We searched locally for anyone who was like us. An area with well over a million people, lo & behold, none of them had given up all of the Christian fabrications, preferring to cast out just enough to ensure that they would not be alone in their beliefs. We began to search the internet for like minded people. We found forums and bulletin boards galore, after a long and exhausting search we found congregation Beth Lechem. We shared Sukkot with them and knew that we belonged. I began making arrangements to move to Columbia South Carolina. I left my family, home, secure job, retirement, benefits, etc. and moved to be with like minded people, shepparded by a great leader and teacher.
> 
> Were we sheep, goats or lost sheep? 
> 
> A goat would continue in its ways, despite the feelings of loneliness & despair. Finding it preferable to the inconvenience of actually having to do something to change its situation (no matter how easy or difficult).
> 
> A lost sheep seeks the safety & community of the sheepfold and knows that the voice of the sheppard means security.
> 
> A sheep that does not desire to be in a sheepfold is not a sheep; it is in reality a goat in sheep?s clothing.
> 
> Our thoughts, motivations and actions should be towards reuniting Yosef as a people. Everything else is just SELFishness. If everyone desiring the Throne of The Almighty YHWH to be on the earth were to work towards this goal, it would be accomplished.
> 
> What we need right now are leaders who are willing to be strong and lead Yosef out of the exile, not bowing to the whim of the people, leading by following in the footsteps of the righteous leaders who came before. Moshe, Yehoshua, etc.
> 
> We need followers who are willing to submit to these leaders and follow the righteous path. Not desiring to tear down, but to build up for the sake of the nation.
> 
> Take a close look at your situation. Are you a goat, a lost sheep, or a goat in sheep?s clothing? 
> 
> There have to be righteous leaders and there have to be righteous followers in order for us to be seen as a people again. 
> 
> Does this forum provide for this? Or is it merely a step towards the goal?
> 
> A quick note on the leadership abilities of Web Hulon.
> 
> I have been under the leadership of Web for over two years now. I have learned a great deal from him, especially in the humility department. Web is devoted to serving the Almighty with his whole heart, mind, soul & strength. He gives 120% towards serving the Eternal. His sword is sharp (his words), they are not wicked. If he speaks/types words, they are for instruction. I used to get embarrassed when he corrected my words or actions which needed correction. I have since grown wiser and learn greatly from my mistakes. I am not like the fool who does not accept correction. Trust me when I say, you?re loss on this list is great. I sincerely hope that lessons are learned from this experience and that teshuvah comes directly on the heels of the learning.
> 
> Stepping down from the soapbox.
> 
> Allen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________
Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
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From tammyhulon at msn.com  Fri Jul 24 11:26:18 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:26:18 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: ways to teach your kids.
In-Reply-To: <362156.73863.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <362156.73863.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W158D0BC0000817782D5728D9190@phx.gbl>


Yes,  we have the CD and I second the motion.  I really like it and my teens like it too.  I will be on the look out for the new cd.  Thanks, Cody.


 


Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:46:05 -0700
From: oneillcody at yahoo.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: ways to teach your kids.






























Shalom everyone,


I believe, a while back some folks were asking about ways to teach their children to seek Hashem.


If you have kids that are at the iPod age, you might introduce them to the singer Matisyahu.


Matisyahu's songs consist of the words of King David, the Prophets, and Torah.


They'll memorize it, sing to it, and learn lesson after lesson from it.  


He has an album "Youth" that has been out a few years (and is a huge hit) and "Light" that is coming out August 25th.


Hope this helps,


Cody

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out.
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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 14:06:52 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:06:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
References: <24538208.1479501248448727586.JavaMail.root@mbs9.homesteadmail.com>
Message-ID: <301AF0E5E256497593AEBBB4B8483596@BatYah>

Omein V'Omein for my husband who can speak so eloquently what I would like 
to say but am unsure of how to voice.

I also am guilty of not speaking up when I should. I am still in the process 
of learning when to be quiet and learning to speak whats profitable to the 
kingdom and not just selfishness.

BatYah
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Allen Spiker" <exodus20 at yhwhisel.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders


Shalom all,

This is my first post to the dialogue group. I have subscribed to the digest 
version for a few months. I find some topics of discussion interesting, but 
haven?t read a discussion that I felt compelled to contribute to until now.

In this day Yosef needs two things; Leaders & followers:

Leaders whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to 
lead, teach, & guide followers. Leaders who are not about themselves, but 
who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in 
the way it was intended. Willing to sacrifice their lives, time & energy in 
an effort to bring about the gathering of the lost sheep.

Followers whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to be 
led, taught, and be guided. Followers who are not about themselves, but who 
are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the 
way it was intended. Willing to be gathered from out of Babylon and apply 
their skills towards the goal of gathering of the lost sheep, the 
restoration of Yosef & preparing the way of YHWH's Kingdom on earth.

Ysrael is a stubborn people. They tend to be more like goats than sheep. 
Study the ways of the Sheppard and learn the intricacies of herding goats, 
and sheep. This is one of the many teachings I have learned from Web Hulon. 
See the way of the goat (the loner), how he goes about doing his own thing, 
by himself. Compare it to the way of the sheep which stick together for 
companionship and safety.

Take a hard look at yourself; which one are you?

If you?re by yourself, feel lonely, and seek the fellowship of those like 
you are you a sheep or a goat?

I?ll relate a true life story as an example; a few years ago my wife & I 
were living in Tucson Arizona. I was employed by the County government 
making over $23.00 an hour, had excellent benefits and I looked forward to 
retiring with no worries about money. The Eternal graciously allowed my wife 
& I to see past the Christian deceptions (all of them!). As most, probably 
all of you know, the result was alienation from family, friends, sometimes 
co-workers, people in general, etc. This is called loneliness. We searched 
locally for anyone who was like us. An area with well over a million people, 
lo & behold, none of them had given up all of the Christian fabrications, 
preferring to cast out just enough to ensure that they would not be alone in 
their beliefs. We began to search the internet for like minded people. We 
found forums and bulletin boards galore, after a long and exhausting search 
we found congregation Beth Lechem. We shared Sukkot with them and knew that 
we belonged. I began making arrangements to move to Columbia South Carolina. 
I left my family, home, secure job, retirement, benefits, etc. and moved to 
be with like minded people, shepparded by a great leader and teacher.

Were we sheep, goats or lost sheep?

A goat would continue in its ways, despite the feelings of loneliness & 
despair. Finding it preferable to the inconvenience of actually having to do 
something to change its situation (no matter how easy or difficult).

A lost sheep seeks the safety & community of the sheepfold and knows that 
the voice of the sheppard means security.

A sheep that does not desire to be in a sheepfold is not a sheep; it is in 
reality a goat in sheep?s clothing.

Our thoughts, motivations and actions should be towards reuniting Yosef as a 
people. Everything else is just SELFishness. If everyone desiring the Throne 
of The Almighty YHWH to be on the earth were to work towards this goal, it 
would be accomplished.

What we need right now are leaders who are willing to be strong and lead 
Yosef out of the exile, not bowing to the whim of the people, leading by 
following in the footsteps of the righteous leaders who came before. Moshe, 
Yehoshua, etc.

We need followers who are willing to submit to these leaders and follow the 
righteous path. Not desiring to tear down, but to build up for the sake of 
the nation.

Take a close look at your situation. Are you a goat, a lost sheep, or a goat 
in sheep?s clothing?

There have to be righteous leaders and there have to be righteous followers 
in order for us to be seen as a people again.

Does this forum provide for this? Or is it merely a step towards the goal?

A quick note on the leadership abilities of Web Hulon.

I have been under the leadership of Web for over two years now. I have 
learned a great deal from him, especially in the humility department. Web is 
devoted to serving the Almighty with his whole heart, mind, soul & strength. 
He gives 120% towards serving the Eternal. His sword is sharp (his words), 
they are not wicked. If he speaks/types words, they are for instruction. I 
used to get embarrassed when he corrected my words or actions which needed 
correction. I have since grown wiser and learn greatly from my mistakes. I 
am not like the fool who does not accept correction. Trust me when I say, 
you?re loss on this list is great. I sincerely hope that lessons are learned 
from this experience and that teshuvah comes directly on the heels of the 
learning.

Stepping down from the soapbox.

Allen


_______________________________________________ 



From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 14:36:13 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
In-Reply-To: <905928.85336.qm@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <905928.85336.qm@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <546442.11359.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Susie, it might interest you to know that:
?
"There is another [Rabbinic] opinion that the angel who wrestled with Jacob was actually Michael, who had come to help him against Esau. From that time, Michael became Israel's guardian angel."
?
The Torah Anthology: Yalkut Me?Am Lo?Ez - Vol IIIa: The Twelve Tribes? 
Published by: Moznaim Publishing Corp. (New York, 1988)
Vol. IIIa ? ?The Twelve Tribes? pp. 136.
I personally favor this opinion.
?
Shalom U'Brachot,
Tracy




________________________________
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:26:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


I have never felt completely sure of who it was that wrestled with Jacob. In reading Sielaff's document I was thinking of these scriptures.

I have heard the two main schools of thought on this and have problems with both.

Because the Scriptures state that Jacob wrestled with a man(ish) and not an angel(malak) those that lean to the Christian side feel this was God emanating as a man since Jacob states that he saw the face of Elohim. The problem I have with this is is that whomever was wrestling with Jacob was not winning and was concerned about the sun coming up.

If one leans to the Judaism explanation that this was an angel on the dark side this would explain the fact that Jacob could be succeeding in the struggle because of his attachment to God and the reason for worrying about dawn. The problem I have with this is , Would an angel be privy to the fact that God was going to change Jacob's name to Israel?

Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Susie

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


>From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:36 AM
>
>
>Web and all, I believe it was Kim that pointed out that Yitro was going through a progression in his understanding of YHVH and it made me think and comment along these same lines?we have all gone through a progression in our understanding of HaShem.? If we hadn?t we certainly would not be where we are today.? 
>?
>As far as the understanding of YHVH in relationship to the elohim, it is very complex, and I am not sure any of us has a crystal clear answer, but that shouldn?t keep us from delving into our Tanakhs and studying this concept and others that may seem foreign to us.? And in our studies, we can never divorce the texts that we read from the existing culture(s) of the day. 
>? 
>HaShem challenges us in Jeremiah 9:22-23 
>?Koh amar YHVH? (Thus says HaShem, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am HaShem who exercise faithful love, justice and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says HaShem). 
>? 
>And as far as our beliefs go, I am of the opinion that we definitely need to re-examine them and allow them to be challenged?thus we have this dialogue, and it is a good thing.? I like the Socrates quote. 
>? 
>Shalom, 
>? 
>Elisheva/Betty
>? 
>
________________________________

>From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:43 AM
>To: roots of faith
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>? 
>Shalom,
>For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of how early Yisraelites saw things.? This can help us to understand other passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.? These all seem to accept the fact that there are other dieties.? 
>?
>Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his understanding.? This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through these processes.
>?
>I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon, as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us re-examine the?beliefs that we do hold.
>
>The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
>Web
>
>
>? 
>
________________________________

>From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
>Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>
>I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.? 
>?
>James
>?
>On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:
>? 
>>I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 
>>?
>>I've been slowly reading?Karen?Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet). ?Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
>>? 
>>
________________________________

>>With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and?share your photos.?_______________________________________________
>? 
>? 
>
________________________________

>Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
>_______________________________________________
> 
By: Rabbi Ya?aqob Culi?


      
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From yhwhisel at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 14:40:18 2009
From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:40:18 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
Message-ID: <26855573EEEC413A8727E7DCDDD3E0B6@BatYah>

Shalom Susie,

The following comes from notes I took on a teaching from our teacher Web. We were taught that Ya'acov is actually wrestling with the word (Torah) that will later be fleshed out as man. The reasoning behind this being that the Hebrew word used here for "alone" has the gematria of 613 which is the number of the commands.
He was also wrestling with himself(man), his own inclination(self). He was wrestling with the spirit of his twin Esau. How much of Esau ( Lavan = Christianity today) was still in him? We know Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew,thinking of his own belly, which is essentially selfishness.
The Hebrew word for dawn that is used here means "that which is sought". Ya'acov wanted to wrestle until what he sought came to light. 
This word can also mean "blackness". Ya'acov fought against the black cloud of depression to seek out and so the cloud was lifted.
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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 17:21:45 2009
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
In-Reply-To: <546442.11359.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <905928.85336.qm@web112404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<546442.11359.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <491385.47982.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Susie, a further note:

This passage is from the Targum Jonathan from the First Century C.E.?This Targum is the translation from Hebrew into an Aramaic speaking public, along with some simple elaboration of the translator. This, in one way demonstrates, at least one of the then current interpretations of the text. Incidently, this Targum also makes much use of the term, "The Word" as if "The Word" was?a person. So, this?translator/interpreter is definitely aware of this Judaic concept, yet he still identifies The Malak (angel) as Michael and not "The Word". This is not to deny the other aspects of Batyah's notes.?Isn't it true that there really is nothing new under the sun?? But, the discovery of these points of view is enthralling - is it not?

Batyah is a good note taker?from her Ephraimite Rabbi - just as others have taken good notes from their Rabbi's for Millenia. 



25. Ya?aqob remained alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25. And Jakob remained alone beyond the Jubeka; and an Angel contended with him in the likeness of a man. And he said, Have you not promised to give the tenth of all that is yours? And, behold, you have ten sons and one daughter: nevertheless you have not tithed them. Immediately he set apart the four firstborn of the four mothers, and there remained eight. And he began to number from Shimeon, and Levi came up for the tenth. 
26. He [the man] saw that he could not defeat him, and he struck the socket of his hip. Ya?aqob's hip joint was dislocated as he wrestled with him. 26. Michael answered and said, the Lord of the world is your lot. And on account of these things he (Michael) remained from God at the torrent till the column of the morning was ascending. And he saw that he had not power to hurt him, and he touched the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jakob's thigh was distorted in his contending with him. 
27. He [the man] said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." He [Ya?aqob] said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27. And he said, Let me go, for the column of the morning ascends; and the hour comes when the angels on high offer praise to the Lord of the world: and I am one of the angels of praise, but from the day that the world was created my time to praise has not come until now. And he said, I will not let you go, until you bless me. [JERUSALEM. And the hollow of Jakob's thigh was displaced in contending with him. And he said, Send me away, for the column of the dawn arises, and, behold, the hour comes for the angels to praise. And he said, I will not release you until you bless me.] 
28. He [the man] said to him, "What is your name?" And he replied, "Ya?aqob." 28. And he said, What is thy name? He answered, Jakob.  
29. He [the man] said, "No longer will your name be spoken of as Ya?aqob, but as Yisrael, for you have contended with G-d[ly beings] and with men, and you have won." 29. And he said, Your name will be no more called Jakob but Israel, because you are magnified with the angels of the Lord and with the mighty, and you have prevailed with them.  
30. Ya?aqob asked him, and said, "Please tell me your name." He said, "Why then do you ask my name?" He then blessed him [Ya?aqob] there. 30. And Jakob asked and said, Show me now your name. And he said, Why do you ask for my name? And he blessed Jakob there. 
31. Ya?aqob named the place Peniel [G-d's Face], "For I have seen G-d[ly beings] face to face, and my soul has survived."  31. And Jakob called the name of the place Peniel; for he said, I have seen the Angels of the Lord face to face, and my soul is saved.  
32. The sun shone upon him as he passed by Penuel, and he limped due to his hip. 32. And the sun rose upon him before his time, (the sun) which on his account had set before his time, on his going out from Beersheba, as he crossed over Peniel. And he began to journey, and was lame upon his thigh.  
33. Therefore, the children of Israel must not eat the displaced tendon [nerve] which is on the hip joint to this very day; because he struck Ya?aqob's hip joint on the displaced tendon. 33. Therefore the sons of Israel eat not the sinew which shrank, which is in the hollow of the thigh of cattle and of wild animals, until this day; because the Angel touched and laid hold of the hollow of the right thigh of Jakob, in the place of the sinew which shrank. 

A side note:
?
Much more to say on these kinds of things, Y'all, just got lots of 'irons in the fire'. Hopefully, after?a?conference next week, I'll have time to sit down and write a little. 
?
Just in case I missed someone in a personal note, thanks so much for all of the Happy Birthday's!
?
Shabbat Shalom,
?
Tracy


?



________________________________
From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:36:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


Susie, it might interest you to know that:
?
"There is another [Rabbinic] opinion that the angel who wrestled with Jacob was actually Michael, who had come to help him against Esau. From that time, Michael became Israel's guardian angel."
?
The Torah Anthology: Yalkut Me?Am Lo?Ez - Vol IIIa: The Twelve Tribes? 
Published by: Moznaim Publishing Corp. (New York, 1988)
Vol. IIIa ? ?The Twelve Tribes? pp. 136.
I personally favor this opinion.
?
Shalom U'Brachot,
Tracy




________________________________
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:26:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


I have never felt completely sure of who it was that wrestled with Jacob. In reading Sielaff's document I was thinking of these scriptures.

I have heard the two main schools of thought on this and have problems with both.

Because the Scriptures state that Jacob wrestled with a man(ish) and not an angel(malak) those that lean to the Christian side feel this was God emanating as a man since Jacob states that he saw the face of Elohim. The problem I have with this is is that whomever was wrestling with Jacob was not winning and was concerned about the sun coming up.

If one leans to the Judaism explanation that this was an angel on the dark side this would explain the fact that Jacob could be succeeding in the struggle because of his attachment to God and the reason for worrying about dawn. The problem I have with this is , Would an angel be privy to the fact that God was going to change Jacob's name to Israel?

Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Susie

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


>From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:36 AM
>
>
>Web and all, I believe it was Kim that pointed out that Yitro was going through a progression in his understanding of YHVH and it made me think and comment along these same lines?we have all gone through a progression in our understanding of HaShem.? If we hadn?t we certainly would not be where we are today.? 
>?
>As far as the understanding of YHVH in relationship to the elohim, it is very complex, and I am not sure any of us has a crystal clear answer, but that shouldn?t keep us from delving into our Tanakhs and studying this concept and others that may seem foreign to us.? And in our studies, we can never divorce the texts that we read from the existing culture(s) of the day. 
>? 
>HaShem challenges us in Jeremiah 9:22-23 
>?Koh amar YHVH? (Thus says HaShem, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am HaShem who exercise faithful love, justice and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says HaShem). 
>? 
>And as far as our beliefs go, I am of the opinion that we definitely need to re-examine them and allow them to be challenged?thus we have this dialogue, and it is a good thing.? I like the Socrates quote. 
>? 
>Shalom, 
>? 
>Elisheva/Betty
>? 
>
________________________________

>From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:43 AM
>To: roots of faith
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>? 
>Shalom,
>For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of how early Yisraelites saw things.? This can help us to understand other passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.? These all seem to accept the fact that there are other dieties.? 
>?
>Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his understanding.? This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through these processes.
>?
>I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon, as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us re-examine the?beliefs that we do hold.
>
>The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
>Web
>
>
>? 
>
________________________________

>From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
>Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>
>I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.? 
>?
>James
>?
>On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:
>? 
>>I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 
>>?
>>I've been slowly reading?Karen?Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet). ?Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
>>? 
>>
________________________________

>>With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and?share your photos.?_______________________________________________
>? 
>? 
>
________________________________

>Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
>_______________________________________________
> 
By: Rabbi Ya?aqob Culi?



      
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 24 18:45:24 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:45:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim
In-Reply-To: <BFC161D1-8CFE-41FA-9FF9-B7D61DB45BCF@earthlink.net>
References: <BFC161D1-8CFE-41FA-9FF9-B7D61DB45BCF@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS181D779A07E95715721346BA190@phx.gbl>

WOW!  This is so terrific, James!  Thank you!!!

Shabbat Shalom All,

Avigail/Pat


From: James Tabor 
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim


On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative Plural) is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual cycle of readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, as some translations show. The text is a Song, referred to subsequently as the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under inspiration to the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic future of the mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite people. One important thing to remember in reading this passage is that it is not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a much different light. These are among the last recorded words of Moses.


The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as God of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the "father that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the ancient name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in speaking of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19).


Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in our various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and preserved by Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic text (MT). There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back to 200 BCE, in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more recently, there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have survived as part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is most interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy differ in some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional text, and its readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. These variations have to do with the use of the term "sons of Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim.


These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT (Masoretic) text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew text is understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect.  However, when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy agreed with the Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have been given much more attention and weight.  Slowly the scholars have begun to have more and more respect for the LXX.  By and large it is a very literal translation, and there is now every indication that the translators were in fact translating a Hebrew original that is different from the MT--however, one values it.  In other words, they were not just adding things and being sloppy with their translation work.  Often the differences are not so important, when we compare the Qumran Hebrew Bible with the MT, but in this case these variants seem quite significant.  Of course the Qumran copies are older than the MT by more than a thousand years, so the discovery of these most ancient of Hebrew texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the scholars and traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist Christianity).  Here are the differences, which I have put in Italics:


MT (Masoretic text) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.


LXX (Greek) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.


Qumran/DSS reads:
Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim.


Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters of Adam" are mentioned.


But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of the Song.  


MT reads:
Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people.


LXX (Greek) reads:
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.


Qumran/DSS reads:
Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and will atone for the land of his people.


As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim."


The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin.


The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the clear reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly seems to be a reference to so-called "angels."


If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" would in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of Israel" or Jacob, his grandson.


There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole concept of the "hiding of the Face" of God.


Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these textual variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX (Septuagint), but also in various versions of the MT, would affect something like the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My own view is that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that are visible on a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid and hard to deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to be much affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled out at 50 letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. The ones I would question are those found separated by multiple pages, hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I think those have been shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they end up being more like "fortune telling" than anything else. That is my view, having followed this rather closely some years back when Drosnin hit the scene.






Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom!


James Tabor


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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul 24 19:03:36 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:03:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] On Following Our Own Ways
Message-ID: <309105.99571.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Isaiah 65:2? I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
?
Jeremiah 9:13? And YHVH saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; 9:14? But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
?
Jeremiah 23:16? Thus saith YHVH of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of YHVH. 
?
Ezekiel 13:2? Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of YHVH; 13:3? Thus saith the Lord YHVH; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
?
Jeremiah 18:11? Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith YHVH; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 18:12? And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
?
Isaiah 1:4? Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHVH, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.? 1:5? Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
?
Haggai 1:5? Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.

Exekiel 36:31? Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 36:32? Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord YHVH, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
?
Ezekiel 20:42? And ye shall know that I am YHVH, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 20:43? And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 20:44? And ye shall know that I am YHVH, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord YHVH.

Jeremiah 26:13? Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of YHVH your God; and YHVH will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

?





?
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Jul 24 19:25:19 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:25:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On Following Our Own Ways
In-Reply-To: <309105.99571.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <309105.99571.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C4E266D3B9C4B4AB6B8C614106778CB@bettylaptop>

Getting ready to shut down for our precious Shabbat and just wanted to say, 

 

SHABBAT SHALOM EVERYONE!  

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:04 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] On Following Our Own Ways

 


Isaiah 65:2  I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious
people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

 

Jeremiah 9:13  And YHVH saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set
before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; 9:14  But
have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim,
which their fathers taught them:

 

Jeremiah 23:16  Thus saith YHVH of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the
prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of
their own heart, and not out of the mouth of YHVH. 

 

Ezekiel 13:2  Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that
prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear
ye the word of YHVH; 13:3  Thus saith the Lord YHVH; Woe unto the foolish
prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

 

Jeremiah 18:11  Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith YHVH; Behold, I frame evil
against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from
his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 18:12  And they said,
There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every
one do the imagination of his evil heart.

 

Isaiah 1:4  Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of
evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHVH, they have
provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
1:5  Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the
whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

 

Haggai 1:5  Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.

Exekiel 36:31  Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings
that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your
iniquities and for your abominations. 36:32  Not for your sakes do I this,
saith the Lord YHVH, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for
your own ways, O house of Israel.

 

Ezekiel 20:42  And ye shall know that I am YHVH, when I shall bring you into
the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to
give it to your fathers. 20:43  And there shall ye remember your ways, and
all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall loathe
yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
20:44  And ye shall know that I am YHVH, when I have wrought with you for my
name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your
corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord YHVH.

Jeremiah 26:13  Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the
voice of YHVH your God; and YHVH will repent him of the evil that he hath
pronounced against you.

 






 

 

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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Fri Jul 24 19:36:51 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:36:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Service
References: <BFC161D1-8CFE-41FA-9FF9-B7D61DB45BCF@earthlink.net>
	<COL119-DS181D779A07E95715721346BA190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A67380022B0C4A06A30453C302208047@davesbook>

Just wanted to get in a quicky here.....

For all of Gods sheep that are intrested,
Tune in for SWWs weekly broadcast live at 10:30 CST 
Glen Chatterton will be filling in for Ross Nichols and I for one, after talking to Glen moments ago via telephone......, am looking forward to this Torah service,  


dave
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 24 19:57:48 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:57:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Service
In-Reply-To: <A67380022B0C4A06A30453C302208047@davesbook>
References: <BFC161D1-8CFE-41FA-9FF9-B7D61DB45BCF@earthlink.net>
	<COL119-DS181D779A07E95715721346BA190@phx.gbl>
	<A67380022B0C4A06A30453C302208047@davesbook>
Message-ID: <6A201E29-AEF0-43BC-B0C3-57DFA63F3694@earthlink.net>

We absolutelyvwill be listening here in Charlotte. I know Glenn's  
message will be YHVH guided!

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 24, 2009, at 8:36 PM, "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net> wrote:

> Just wanted to get in a quicky here.....
>
> For all of Gods sheep that are intrested,
> Tune in for SWWs weekly broadcast live at 10:30 CST
> Glen Chatterton will be filling in for Ross Nichols and I for one,  
> after talking to Glen moments ago via telephone......, am looking  
> forward to this Torah service,
>
>
> dave
>
> _______________________________________________
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From andreyahjeffcoat at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 24 21:54:58 2009
From: andreyahjeffcoat at yahoo.com (andreyah jeffcoat)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:54:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] 
	Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 15, Issue 115  Follow the leader
Message-ID: <299624.56472.qm@web59311.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Shalom All,

This comment is in reference to the topic of verbal abuse. We belong to Congregation Beth Lechem under the leadership of Web Hulon. We are in total agreement with what has been said by Web, Tammy, Allen, Batyah and others.? We too are guilty for not speaking up promptly.? Some times when people are unsure of what to do or say, they do nothing. We have been taught by our leader that if you are unsure of what to say or do, follow your leader. So just as our leader has unsubscribed, we too are unsubscribing.

Vic and Andreyah

--- On Fri, 7/24/09, dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org> wrote:

From: dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 15, Issue 115
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 6:21 PM

Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
??? dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."


Today's Topics:

???1. Re: Follow the leaders (Batyah)
???2. Re: Jacob's wrestle (Tracy Osborne)
???3. Jacob's wrestle (Batyah)
???4. Re: Jacob's wrestle (Tracy Osborne)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:06:52 -0400
From: "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Message-ID: <301AF0E5E256497593AEBBB4B8483596 at BatYah>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
??? reply-type=original

Omein V'Omein for my husband who can speak so eloquently what I would like 
to say but am unsure of how to voice.

I also am guilty of not speaking up when I should. I am still in the process 
of learning when to be quiet and learning to speak whats profitable to the 
kingdom and not just selfishness.

BatYah
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Allen Spiker" <exodus20 at yhwhisel.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Follow the leaders


Shalom all,

This is my first post to the dialogue group. I have subscribed to the digest 
version for a few months. I find some topics of discussion interesting, but 
haven?t read a discussion that I felt compelled to contribute to until now.

In this day Yosef needs two things; Leaders & followers:

Leaders whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to 
lead, teach, & guide followers. Leaders who are not about themselves, but 
who are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in 
the way it was intended. Willing to sacrifice their lives, time & energy in 
an effort to bring about the gathering of the lost sheep.

Followers whose hearts desire is to serve the Eternal. Who are willing to be 
led, taught, and be guided. Followers who are not about themselves, but who 
are driven by their desire to serve YHWH and follow His perfect torah in the 
way it was intended. Willing to be gathered from out of Babylon and apply 
their skills towards the goal of gathering of the lost sheep, the 
restoration of Yosef & preparing the way of YHWH's Kingdom on earth.

Ysrael is a stubborn people. They tend to be more like goats than sheep. 
Study the ways of the Sheppard and learn the intricacies of herding goats, 
and sheep. This is one of the many teachings I have learned from Web Hulon. 
See the way of the goat (the loner), how he goes about doing his own thing, 
by himself. Compare it to the way of the sheep which stick together for 
companionship and safety.

Take a hard look at yourself; which one are you?

If you?re by yourself, feel lonely, and seek the fellowship of those like 
you are you a sheep or a goat?

I?ll relate a true life story as an example; a few years ago my wife & I 
were living in Tucson Arizona. I was employed by the County government 
making over $23.00 an hour, had excellent benefits and I looked forward to 
retiring with no worries about money. The Eternal graciously allowed my wife 
& I to see past the Christian deceptions (all of them!). As most, probably 
all of you know, the result was alienation from family, friends, sometimes 
co-workers, people in general, etc. This is called loneliness. We searched 
locally for anyone who was like us. An area with well over a million people, 
lo & behold, none of them had given up all of the Christian fabrications, 
preferring to cast out just enough to ensure that they would not be alone in 
their beliefs. We began to search the internet for like minded people. We 
found forums and bulletin boards galore, after a long and exhausting search 
we found congregation Beth Lechem. We shared Sukkot with them and knew that 
we belonged. I began making arrangements to move to Columbia South Carolina. 
I left my family, home, secure job, retirement, benefits, etc. and moved to 
be with like minded people, shepparded by a great leader and teacher.

Were we sheep, goats or lost sheep?

A goat would continue in its ways, despite the feelings of loneliness & 
despair. Finding it preferable to the inconvenience of actually having to do 
something to change its situation (no matter how easy or difficult).

A lost sheep seeks the safety & community of the sheepfold and knows that 
the voice of the sheppard means security.

A sheep that does not desire to be in a sheepfold is not a sheep; it is in 
reality a goat in sheep?s clothing.

Our thoughts, motivations and actions should be towards reuniting Yosef as a 
people. Everything else is just SELFishness. If everyone desiring the Throne 
of The Almighty YHWH to be on the earth were to work towards this goal, it 
would be accomplished.

What we need right now are leaders who are willing to be strong and lead 
Yosef out of the exile, not bowing to the whim of the people, leading by 
following in the footsteps of the righteous leaders who came before. Moshe, 
Yehoshua, etc.

We need followers who are willing to submit to these leaders and follow the 
righteous path. Not desiring to tear down, but to build up for the sake of 
the nation.

Take a close look at your situation. Are you a goat, a lost sheep, or a goat 
in sheep?s clothing?

There have to be righteous leaders and there have to be righteous followers 
in order for us to be seen as a people again.

Does this forum provide for this? Or is it merely a step towards the goal?

A quick note on the leadership abilities of Web Hulon.

I have been under the leadership of Web for over two years now. I have 
learned a great deal from him, especially in the humility department. Web is 
devoted to serving the Almighty with his whole heart, mind, soul & strength. 
He gives 120% towards serving the Eternal. His sword is sharp (his words), 
they are not wicked. If he speaks/types words, they are for instruction. I 
used to get embarrassed when he corrected my words or actions which needed 
correction. I have since grown wiser and learn greatly from my mistakes. I 
am not like the fool who does not accept correction. Trust me when I say, 
you?re loss on this list is great. I sincerely hope that lessons are learned 
from this experience and that teshuvah comes directly on the heels of the 
learning.

Stepping down from the soapbox.

Allen


_______________________________________________ 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Message-ID: <546442.11359.qm at web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Susie, it might interest you to know that:
?
"There is another [Rabbinic] opinion that the angel who wrestled with Jacob was actually Michael, who had come to help him against Esau. From that time, Michael became Israel's guardian angel."
?
The Torah Anthology: Yalkut Me?Am Lo?Ez - Vol IIIa: The Twelve Tribes? 
Published by: Moznaim Publishing Corp. (New York, 1988)
Vol. IIIa ? ?The Twelve Tribes? pp. 136.
I personally favor this opinion.
?
Shalom U'Brachot,
Tracy




________________________________
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:26:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


I have never felt completely sure of who it was that wrestled with Jacob. In reading Sielaff's document I was thinking of these scriptures.

I have heard the two main schools of thought on this and have problems with both.

Because the Scriptures state that Jacob wrestled with a man(ish) and not an angel(malak) those that lean to the Christian side feel this was God emanating as a man since Jacob states that he saw the face of Elohim. The problem I have with this is is that whomever was wrestling with Jacob was not winning and was concerned about the sun coming up.

If one leans to the Judaism explanation that this was an angel on the dark side this would explain the fact that Jacob could be succeeding in the struggle because of his attachment to God and the reason for worrying about dawn. The problem I have with this is , Would an angel be privy to the fact that God was going to change Jacob's name to Israel?

Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Susie

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net> wrote:


>From: Betty K Givin <bkgivin at verizon.net>
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:36 AM
>
>
>Web and all, I believe it was Kim that pointed out that Yitro was going through a progression in his understanding of YHVH and it made me think and comment along these same lines?we have all gone through a progression in our understanding of HaShem.? If we hadn?t we certainly would not be where we are today.? 
>?
>As far as the understanding of YHVH in relationship to the elohim, it is very complex, and I am not sure any of us has a crystal clear answer, but that shouldn?t keep us from delving into our Tanakhs and studying this concept and others that may seem foreign to us.? And in our studies, we can never divorce the texts that we read from the existing culture(s) of the day. 
>? 
>HaShem challenges us in Jeremiah 9:22-23 
>?Koh amar YHVH? (Thus says HaShem, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am HaShem who exercise faithful love, justice and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says HaShem). 
>? 
>And as far as our beliefs go, I am of the opinion that we definitely need to re-examine them and allow them to be challenged?thus we have this dialogue, and it is a good thing.? I like the Socrates quote. 
>? 
>Shalom, 
>? 
>Elisheva/Betty
>? 
>
________________________________

>From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:43 AM
>To: roots of faith
>Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>? 
>Shalom,
>For me the value of the Sielaff article is that it gives us a better idea of how early Yisraelites saw things.? This can help us to understand other passages that may be confusing, such as those that I listed earlier from Moshe and David and Soloman and even YHWH.? These all seem to accept the fact that there are other dieties.? 
>?
>Someone stated earlier that Yitro was going through a process in his understanding.? This helps us to understand that EVERYBODY goes through these processes.
>?
>I would not suggest that these things are something to build doctrine upon, as they must be balanced with the rest of Torah. I do however think that this, as well as any challenging teaching or article, should make us re-examine the?beliefs that we do hold.
>
>The unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
>Web
>
>
>? 
>
________________________________

>From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:19:48 -0400
>Subject: [Dialogue] Sons of Elohim
>
>I thought the main value of the Sielaff article was the way in which he surveys all the key passages and texts. How one finally processes the subject as a whole is another matter. Ross, Dennis, and I have discussed this in great detail over the years but it would be hard to cover via e-mail--at least for me right now with many pressing projects. I think it would make a good face to face discussion at some of our meetings in the future. I haven't read Armstrong's latest work but in general her approach is that of an historian of religions, outside the camp of what I would call "Biblical faith." That is not to say her insights would not be valuable.? 
>?
>James
>?
>On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote:
>? 
>>I agree his thoughts are confusing Susie - James, If you get the time, I'd love to hear some of your conclusions on this study - I'm still in the process of reading it, but like Susie, I'm not sure what to make of it. 
>>?
>>I've been slowly reading?Karen?Armstrong's 'A Case For God' (not even half way through yet). ?Just wondering if anyone has any strong opinions on the author and her books that might help me get a clearer idea on her credentials (for want of a better word!) She makes some startling historical conclusions which I am not sure whether to take as 'opinion' or fact.
>>? 
>>
________________________________

>>With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and?share your photos.?_______________________________________________
>? 
>? 
>
________________________________

>Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
>_______________________________________________
> 
By: Rabbi Ya?aqob Culi?


? ? ? 
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:40:18 -0400
From: "Batyah" <yhwhisel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Message-ID: <26855573EEEC413A8727E7DCDDD3E0B6 at BatYah>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Shalom Susie,

The following comes from notes I took on a teaching from our teacher Web. We were taught that Ya'acov is actually wrestling with the word (Torah) that will later be fleshed out as man. The reasoning behind this being that the Hebrew word used here for "alone" has the gematria of 613 which is the number of the commands.
He was also wrestling with himself(man), his own inclination(self). He was wrestling with the spirit of his twin Esau. How much of Esau ( Lavan = Christianity today) was still in him? We know Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew,thinking of his own belly, which is essentially selfishness.
The Hebrew word for dawn that is used here means "that which is sought". Ya'acov wanted to wrestle until what he sought came to light. 
This word can also mean "blackness". Ya'acov fought against the black cloud of depression to seek out and so the cloud was lifted.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Message-ID: <491385.47982.qm at web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Susie, a further note:

This passage is from the Targum Jonathan from the First Century C.E.?This Targum is the translation from Hebrew into an Aramaic speaking public, along with some simple elaboration of the translator. This, in one way demonstrates, at least one of the then current interpretations of the text. Incidently, this Targum also makes much use of the term, "The Word" as if "The Word" was?a person. So, this?translator/interpreter is definitely aware of this Judaic concept, yet he still identifies The Malak (angel) as Michael and not "The Word". This is not to deny the other aspects of Batyah's notes.?Isn't it true that there really is nothing new under the sun?? But, the discovery of these points of view is enthralling - is it not?

Batyah is a good note taker?from her Ephraimite Rabbi - just as others have taken good notes from their Rabbi's for Millenia. 



25. Ya?aqob remained alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25. And Jakob remained alone beyond the Jubeka; and an Angel contended with him in the likeness of a man. And he said, Have you not promised to give the tenth of all that is yours? And, behold, you have ten sons and one daughter: nevertheless you have not tithed them. Immediately he set apart the four firstborn of the four mothers, and there remained eight. And he began to number from Shimeon, and Levi came up for the tenth. 
26. He [the man] saw that he could not defeat him, and he struck the socket of his hip. Ya?aqob's hip joint was dislocated as he wrestled with him. 26. Michael answered and said, the Lord of the world is your lot. And on account of these things he (Michael) remained from God at the torrent till the column of the morning was ascending. And he saw that he had not power to hurt him, and he touched the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jakob's thigh was distorted in his contending with him. 
27. He [the man] said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." He [Ya?aqob] said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27. And he said, Let me go, for the column of the morning ascends; and the hour comes when the angels on high offer praise to the Lord of the world: and I am one of the angels of praise, but from the day that the world was created my time to praise has not come until now. And he said, I will not let you go, until you bless me. [JERUSALEM. And the hollow of Jakob's thigh was displaced in contending with him. And he said, Send me away, for the column of the dawn arises, and, behold, the hour comes for the angels to praise. And he said, I will not release you until you bless me.] 
28. He [the man] said to him, "What is your name?" And he replied, "Ya?aqob." 28. And he said, What is thy name? He answered, Jakob.? 
29. He [the man] said, "No longer will your name be spoken of as Ya?aqob, but as Yisrael, for you have contended with G-d[ly beings] and with men, and you have won." 29. And he said, Your name will be no more called Jakob but Israel, because you are magnified with the angels of the Lord and with the mighty, and you have prevailed with them.? 
30. Ya?aqob asked him, and said, "Please tell me your name." He said, "Why then do you ask my name?" He then blessed him [Ya?aqob] there. 30. And Jakob asked and said, Show me now your name. And he said, Why do you ask for my name? And he blessed Jakob there. 
31. Ya?aqob named the place Peniel [G-d's Face], "For I have seen G-d[ly beings] face to face, and my soul has survived."? 31. And Jakob called the name of the place Peniel; for he said, I have seen the Angels of the Lord face to face, and my soul is saved.? 
32. The sun shone upon him as he passed by Penuel, and he limped due to his hip. 32. And the sun rose upon him before his time, (the sun) which on his account had set before his time, on his going out from Beersheba, as he crossed over Peniel. And he began to journey, and was lame upon his thigh.? 
33. Therefore, the children of Israel must not eat the displaced tendon [nerve] which is on the hip joint to this very day; because he struck Ya?aqob's hip joint on the displaced tendon. 33. Therefore the sons of Israel eat not the sinew which shrank, which is in the hollow of the thigh of cattle and of wild animals, until this day; because the Angel touched and laid hold of the hollow of the right thigh of Jakob, in the place of the sinew which shrank. 

A side note:
?
Much more to say on these kinds of things, Y'all, just got lots of 'irons in the fire'. Hopefully, after?a?conference next week, I'll have time to sit down and write a little. 
?
Just in case I missed someone in a personal note, thanks so much for all of the Happy Birthday's!
?
Shabbat Shalom,
?
Tracy


?



________________________________
From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:36:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


Susie, it might interest you to know that:
?
"There is another [Rabbinic] opinion that the angel who wrestled with Jacob was actually Michael, who had come to help him against Esau. From that time, Michael became Israel's guardian angel."
?
The Torah Anthology: Yalkut Me?Am Lo?Ez - Vol IIIa: The Twelve Tribes? 
Published by: Moznaim Publishing Corp. (New York, 1988)
Vol. IIIa ? ?The Twelve Tribes? pp. 136.
I personally favor this opinion.
?
Shalom U'Brachot,
Tracy




________________________________
From: susie getskow <gets52000 at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:26:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jacob's wrestle


I have never felt completely sure of who it was that wrestled with Jacob. In reading Sielaff's document I was thinking of these scriptures.

I have heard the two main schools of thought on this and have problems with both.

Because the Scriptures state that Jacob wrestled with a man(ish) and not an angel(malak) those that lean to the Christian side feel this was God emanating as a man since Jacob states that he saw the face of Elohim. The problem I have with this is is that whomever was wrestling with Jacob was not winning and was concerned about the sun coming up.

If one leans to the Judaism explanation that this was an angel on the dark side this would explain the fact that Jacob could be succeeding