From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 03:43:45 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 01:43:45 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "..but the house of the righteous shall stand." Message-ID: <855590370903010143qd92a3bfs873af7b6d1b2a1db@mail.gmail.com> ToraLife 7 by HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. *Evil individuals will be overthrown, and will cease [to exist]; but the house of the righteous shall stand. *Proverbs 12:7 Evil individuals have two enemies, one that is small and one that is great. The small enemy is the multitude of peoples whom evil individuals oppress. The great enemy is the very evil itself that resides within the heart of the evil individual. Those whom evil individuals oppress do not always have the necessary strength to pose a threat to their oppressors. The weak and the downtrodden may or may not be able to defend themselves against evil souls, therefore they are most often no threat at all. This is why they are called the small enemy, for although they pose a constant threat to the evil individual in their thirst for justice and revenge, still more often than not, they lack the power and therefore can cause no real serious harm. However, although the weak and oppressed can be silenced and their danger neutralized, there still remains the greater enemy, the one who cannot be silenced, or intimated. The great enemy cannot be oppressed, for it is the oppressor. The great enemy cannot be conquered for it is the conqueror. The evil heart inside the evil individual has a life of its own and more often than not turns on its own self, just as easily as it turns on the weak and oppressed. Ultimately in the end the evil individual becomes as much a victim of his own evil as are those whom he oppresses. This is unavoidable and inevitable. Evil is its own downfall. For them we have no pity and for them we shed no tears. Evil deserves its fate. After all the harm evil does to others, evil eventually turns back on itself and destroys its host. Although we may not be the instruments for the destruction of evil, we can hurry it along. Although we may not be strong enough to confront, attack and defeat evil, we can still gain a minor victory in that we are able to resist. It is in our resistance that lays our true strength and it is in our resistance that plants the seeds for evil's inward turn and destruction of itself. The secret of defeating evil is righteousness. Righteousness simply means living by doing what is right, always. It is often hard to distinguish between right and wrong in all circumstances. Therefore, the righteous rely upon what they know in their hearts more so than what they know in their heads. Knowing in the heart is not an emotional state. Knowing in the heart begins when feelings and emotions end. In order to truly know what the heart knows one must silence the noise of conflicting emotions and still the raging fire of one's feelings. When the heart is silent, then it can hear the voice of the inner mind. The inner voice is not heard by either the ear or the mind, but the heart knows its language well. It tells the heart what the right thing is to do, when and how to do it. This is the voice of conscience. It is the heart of righteousness. No one can be righteous without a conscience. No one can hear the voice of conscience over the roar of a conflicted heart. One's house is one's home; yet it is more than a building or a physical place. The house of the righteous is his inner place; the place where his heart and mind merge as one, showing him the proper path that defines righteousness. This house shall stand forever, it shall never fail or fall. Although the power of evil can be most formidable and most foreboding, still, the righteous stand firm against it. Although the evil one may kill the body of the righteous soul, still the resolve and heart of the righteous will stand firm and live forever. Thus his house remains forever intact. The echo of righteousness lives on forever. It is more powerful than any force evil individuals can ever generate. The echo of righteousness seeps into the inner mind of the evil individual and does war with his evil heart. It is this inner war that is the fall and demise of evil. When evil turns to fight the inner war within the evil individual, the evil becomes consumed; it self-destructs and eventually ceases to exist. The echo of righteousness however will live on and on. It will pass from one righteous soul to the next, from one generation to the next. In the end, only righteousness will remain. This is a long road and we still have a way to travel upon it. Yet, the end is near, and the outcome is assured. ------------------------------------------- Shalom, HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/02750bb0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 04:24:18 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 02:24:18 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss Message-ID: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> Shalom John, Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my comments in *RED*.... Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long time...LOL * Hanoch* *Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) The *Outreach Judaism* organization has announced that it is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who target Jews for conversion. * It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, whatsoever, to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As John Hulley once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children candy, they just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them....* Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. The series entitled *Judaism?s Response to Christian Missionaries* will be the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaismfounder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from the United States. In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually to ?bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people.? Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though they are speaking about Jesus. ?Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our community to their extremist brand of Christianity,? said Singer, who also hosts his own talk show on *Israel National Radio *. ?In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a straightforward Christian message,? he added. *This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY!* *Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels* Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56 by by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. *Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going to be very disappointed....* The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is employed and that ?only the ones that are here illegally were picked up.? There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from Egypt in the past year had been hired ?off the books? by the hotels at the Dead Sea, said the source. ?They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents,? she said. ?They can?t seem to tell the difference.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/fd116d2a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 1 08:55:27 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:55:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PLEASE help the former residents of Gush Katif In-Reply-To: <855590370902282032i5e93a158q8515fd2ac03a31dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370902282032i5e93a158q8515fd2ac03a31dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Will do, Hanoch. Thank you for sending us this opportunity. Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] PLEASE help the former residents of Gush Katif The people of Gush Katif have suffered SO much, and have lost everything. Is there anyway that you, or someone you know could help? Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim Click here: JobKatif - How To Donate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/007fd6a9/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 09:32:40 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:32:40 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] PLEASE keep praying for rain in Israel Message-ID: <855590370903010732m3c9b0eb3g8e2df9b069ee2d30@mail.gmail.com> [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/] Daily Israel Report Subscribe (free) Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin Radio | Live [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx] TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise Kinneret Rises 21 Centimeters Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 09:23 by (IsraelNN.com) The Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) has risen by 21 centimeters (nine inches) since the precipitation began falling on Friday. Meteorologists said the lake could rise by another 20 inches in the next week due to runoff and continued rain storms. The lake had previously risen only 28 centimeters (11 inches) since its low point this winter. Before the storm hit, the Kinneret was 85 centimeters (34 inches) over the black line, where contamination may force a halt to pumping of water into water lines. The red line, which is the minimum desirable level, is 1.15 meters (46 inches) above the current water level. Meteorologists said there is a slight chance of more rain next Sabbath, and one or two more late winter storms could bring the Kinneret above the red line and possibly leave Israelis with enough water for daily use throughout the summer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/d4e752da/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 09:36:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:36:26 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] What a real idiot! Message-ID: <855590370903010736i286cba52kf51e35b6d901e9a4@mail.gmail.com> *THURSDAY THE RABBI **GOT** FOOLED* By Moshe Phillips Rabbi Brad Hirschfield can be counted among the foolish people who thought that they knew Muzzammil Hassan and what he stood for. "Mo" Hassan is the Islamic TV executive who confessed to murdering his wife and leaving her decapitated body in the offices of the Bridges TV network they created together. Rabbi Hirschfield was fooled by Hassan into believing he was interested "fostering understanding between cultures and diverse populations." Rabbi Brad Hirschfield is a foolish rabbi. Rabbi Brad is the president of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership (CLAL) and wrote the foolish book *You Don't Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism*. In that 2008 masterwork Rabbi Brad attempted to overturn thousands of years of Jewish Thought and proclaim that there is no absolute truth. Foolish book. Foolish Rabbi Brad. Rabbi Brad foolishly decided he wanted to be a TV star. His foolish show is called *Building Bridges: Abrahamic Perspectives on the World Today*, which began airing on an American Islamic TV network called Bridges TV in 2006. The foolish show is described as "Rabbi Hirschfield is joined by Christian and Muslim leaders to look at world events from their common Abrahemic Roots." Foolish Rabbi Brad thought that he was working with "moderate" Muslims. On February 12, 2009 Muzzammil Hassan, the founder of the pro-Islamic Bridges TV network, beheaded his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair Hassan. "Mo" Hassan had violently abused his wife when they lived together. The controversial Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) organization presented Muzzammil Hassan with an award at the first banquet of their Pennsylvania chapter on April 7, 2007. CAIR National Chairman Parvez Ahmed posed with Hassan for pictures at the Hilton Hotel in Philadelphia. *Investor's Business Daily* in a March 6, 2007 editorial declared CAIR to be "the PR machine of militant Islam." A second TV series called, *American Pilgrimage*, was created by Foolish Rabbi Brad for Bridges TV in 2008. It was described as "bringing viewers into the homes and mosques of Muslim leaders across the country..." Rabbi Brad most not have cared about CAIR. One wonders what Foolish Rabbi Brad thought of the abuse in the Hassan family's home. Foolishly *Newsweek *magazine declared Rabbi Brad to be "one of the nation's 50 most influential rabbis." The media loves foolish rabbis. Rabbi Brad has a weekly radio show and has been on PBS many times. On PBS Foolish Rabbi Brad criticized the "extremist" Jewish Settlers in Judea and Samaria (that he foolishly referred to as the "West Bank"). PBS spoke to Foolish Rabbi Brad for their *Frontline* pogrom, er program, about the September 11th Islamic terrorist attacks. For PBS Foolish Rabbi Brad stated: "It's just that when I look at those terrorists, I don't see something wholly "other," because I know from my own life experience what it means to allow your most deeply felt beliefs to motivate you to do violent things to other people. Now, it's true, I haven't done anything even approaching that. I don't even think that Jewish terrorists have done -- and there are Jewish terrorists who are using the traditions I hold most dear to justify and to motivate their terror -- have done anything approaching that. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's wholly other, because it's not. When I look in their faces, I do see the shadow side of what were once some of my dreams and aspirations, and continue to be for some of my teachers from that time." Foolish Rabbi Brad compared the 9/11 hijackers to fellow Jews. Now that's not just foolish; that's what our forefathers used to call beyond the pale. FOXNews.com reported on Feb 17, 2009 that Foolish Rabbi Brad stated the following on the day of Aasiya Zubair Hassan's funeral "I will only say to those who leap to the conclusion that this kind of thing is intrinsic to Islam, ask yourselves if you think that drunkenness is intrinsic to Irish Catholics, or cheating in business is to Jews?" The statement came from Rabbi Brad's foolish "Windows & Doors" blog on beliefnet.com. How can one even begin to respond to such foolishness? Jews in America have a choice. Be foolish and allow Rabbi Brad to participate in organized Jewish life or shun him as the fool he is and hope that he finds a real job more suited to his intellect. Perhaps as a stable boy cleaning horse manure from barns? And now let us join in prayer: May G-d bless and keep Foolish Rabbi Brad far, far away from us. -30- ** *Moshe Phillips* is a member of the Executive Committee of the Philadelphia Chapter of Americans For a Safe Israel - AFSI. The chapter's website is at: www.phillyafsi.com and Moshe's blog can be found at http://phillyafsi.blogtownhall.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/02492f5d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 1 09:48:17 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:48:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss In-Reply-To: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Am so thankful for Rabbi Singer, who has actually received death threats from "loving" Christians whose cherished misconceptions he confronts Scripture for Scripture. As far as I'm concerned, he is a HERO of our times, and I have supported him in every way I can since the early '90's when I first met him. Would urge all who possibly can afford to do so, to order his teaching tapes. They come with a book which makes understanding the truth of what he is teaching impossible to miss. In his book, you will see each Christian teaching examined carefully according to the Word of G-d. He's the best "preacher" you'll ever hear! And this will be the best money you ever spent! His motivation to begin teaching was to rescue Jews who had fallen into Christianity because of their lack of knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures. What he never expected was that he would awaken the GREAT HERD OF LOST SHEEP from THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES!!!!!!! CHAZAK! CHAZAK, DEAR RABBI SINGER!!!!!! Pat Robbins From: Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:24 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss Shalom John, Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my comments in RED.... Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long time...LOL Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) The Outreach Judaism organization has announced that it is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who target Jews for conversion. It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, whatsoever, to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As John Hulley once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children candy, they just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them.... Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. The series entitled Judaism?s Response to Christian Missionaries will be the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaism founder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from the United States. In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually to ?bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people.? Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though they are speaking about Jesus. ?Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our community to their extremist brand of Christianity,? said Singer, who also hosts his own talk show on Israel National Radio. ?In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a straightforward Christian message,? he added. This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY! Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56by by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going to be very disappointed.... The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is employed and that ?only the ones that are here illegally were picked up.? There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from Egypt in the past year had been hired ?off the books? by the hotels at the Dead Sea, said the source. ?They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents,? she said. ?They can?t seem to tell the difference.? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/a0a7595e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 09:50:19 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:50:19 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "8 Souls, 8 Torah Scrolls" Message-ID: <855590370903010750n424ac947k2aabf5966a1bfbf9@mail.gmail.com> This is written by Moshe Kepinski, one of the oweners (along with his brother) of Shorashim - a wonderful store in the Old City of Yerushalayim. I am proud to say that both of my daughters attended this event...may G-d avenge the blood of these boys... * Hanoch * * Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* [image: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/] [image: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/] [image: Eight Souls, Eight Torah Scrolls] by Moshe Kempinski *As I closed my eyes I imagined eight souls dancing in a circle above us and the circling Torah scrolls.* Email this Print this Eight Torah scrolls for eight souls. Eight Torah scrolls were completed one year after eight young Jewish boys were gunned down by a Palestinian murderer. Eight Torah scrolls were brought together with singing and dancing through the streets of Jerusalem back into the yeshiva where the flame of those eight young souls was extinguished. I struggled during the day as to whether I wanted to join the ceremony in memory of those boys, a ceremony that would be so interlaced with sadness and loss. The evening was called "Remembering and Continuing" and I finally decided that I could not detach myself from that sadness and loss. As I approached the area of the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva I found myself joining a steady stream of young people, families with little children, and older Jews walking on canes. Every face set with determination and every set of eyes glistening with a tear. Yet, as we got closer, the stream became a river and the mood seemed to change. Soon, I was engulfed by a sea of people singing and dancing as they approached the gates of the yeshiva. We were all there to honor the souls of eight young people who had still so much to achieve in their young lives. We were there to offer strength and comfort to eight families who had lost the most precious of gifts that God and life have to offer. At the deepest level, we were also there to be comforted and strengthened ourselves. As I entered the yeshiva study hall, I was again engulfed in a sea of pain and joy, hope and loss. The new Torah scrolls were held aloft amidst the dancing, each scroll with the name of one of the eight young boys embroidered on the Torah cover. The Torah scrolls of Avraham David Moses, Ro'i Aharon Roth, and of Neria Cohen were dancing with the scrolls of Yonatan Yitzchak Eldar., Doron Maharete, Yochai Lifshitz, Segev Peniel Avichail and Yonadav Chaim Hirschfeld. It was probably because I wanted it to be so, but as I closed my eyes I imagined eight souls dancing in a circle above us and the circling Torah scrolls. Then the Torah scrolls mixed in and joined the other Torah scrolls of the yeshiva. The thunderous singing shook the large windows of the building. It was impossible to do anything else but jump up and down, and that very action added to the intensity of the moment. Thousands of people trying to reach to the very heavens with leaps and bounds. The evening was also an opportunity to bring to a culmination a study cycle of the Talmud that was begun in the memory of the eight boys. Over the course of the year, those who wished to study a section of the Talmud in memory of the slain students had signed up via an Internet site designated for the purpose, specifying the pages they planned to study. The entire Talmud was completed more than three times in this manner. As Rabbi Shapira began the *siyum* ("conclusion") ceremony, each bereaved father sat with his son's Torah scroll. It was clear that they were not holding up the Torah scroll at all, but rather the scroll was holding them up and strengthening their broken souls. I remembered a story that I had heard a very long time ago. After the end of the madness of the Holocaust, a small community tried to regather in one of the small towns of Poland. It was the eve of Simchat Torah, the holiday celebrating the study and reading of the Torah. When the congregants opened the ark to dance with the scrolls, they were shocked to find it empty. The scrolls had been stolen. At that point, the children began to cry uncontrollably. Several men simply picked up the children, some of whom were orphaned in the camps, and began to dance with the children. The Torah scrolls became children. In Jerusalem, over 60 years later, the children became Torah scrolls. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/6ff0f3b7/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:06:28 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:06:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] What a real idiot! In-Reply-To: <855590370903010736i286cba52kf51e35b6d901e9a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903010736i286cba52kf51e35b6d901e9a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This "foolish Rabbi" is the perfect example of HELLENISM TODAY! The two platforms upon which Hellenism stands are: 1) THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES! 2) MAN IS THE MEASURE OF ALL THINGS. Hanoch, you are truly a modern-day MACCABEE!!!! Thank you for your tireless efforts. Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 10:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] What a real idiot! THURSDAY THE RABBI GOT FOOLED By Moshe Phillips Rabbi Brad Hirschfield can be counted among the foolish people who thought that they knew Muzzammil Hassan and what he stood for. "Mo" Hassan is the Islamic TV executive who confessed to murdering his wife and leaving her decapitated body in the offices of the Bridges TV network they created together. Rabbi Hirschfield was fooled by Hassan into believing he was interested "fostering understanding between cultures and diverse populations." Rabbi Brad Hirschfield is a foolish rabbi. Rabbi Brad is the president of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership (CLAL) and wrote the foolish book You Don't Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism. In that 2008 masterwork Rabbi Brad attempted to overturn thousands of years of Jewish Thought and proclaim that there is no absolute truth. Foolish book. Foolish Rabbi Brad. Rabbi Brad foolishly decided he wanted to be a TV star. His foolish show is called Building Bridges: Abrahamic Perspectives on the World Today, which began airing on an American Islamic TV network called Bridges TV in 2006. The foolish show is described as "Rabbi Hirschfield is joined by Christian and Muslim leaders to look at world events from their common Abrahemic Roots." Foolish Rabbi Brad thought that he was working with "moderate" Muslims. On February 12, 2009 Muzzammil Hassan, the founder of the pro-Islamic Bridges TV network, beheaded his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair Hassan. "Mo" Hassan had violently abused his wife when they lived together. The controversial Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) organization presented Muzzammil Hassan with an award at the first banquet of their Pennsylvania chapter on April 7, 2007. CAIR National Chairman Parvez Ahmed posed with Hassan for pictures at the Hilton Hotel in Philadelphia. Investor's Business Daily in a March 6, 2007 editorial declared CAIR to be "the PR machine of militant Islam." A second TV series called, American Pilgrimage, was created by Foolish Rabbi Brad for Bridges TV in 2008. It was described as "bringing viewers into the homes and mosques of Muslim leaders across the country..." Rabbi Brad most not have cared about CAIR. One wonders what Foolish Rabbi Brad thought of the abuse in the Hassan family's home. Foolishly Newsweek magazine declared Rabbi Brad to be "one of the nation's 50 most influential rabbis." The media loves foolish rabbis. Rabbi Brad has a weekly radio show and has been on PBS many times. On PBS Foolish Rabbi Brad criticized the "extremist" Jewish Settlers in Judea and Samaria (that he foolishly referred to as the "West Bank"). PBS spoke to Foolish Rabbi Brad for their Frontline pogrom, er program, about the September 11th Islamic terrorist attacks. For PBS Foolish Rabbi Brad stated: "It's just that when I look at those terrorists, I don't see something wholly "other," because I know from my own life experience what it means to allow your most deeply felt beliefs to motivate you to do violent things to other people. Now, it's true, I haven't done anything even approaching that. I don't even think that Jewish terrorists have done -- and there are Jewish terrorists who are using the traditions I hold most dear to justify and to motivate their terror -- have done anything approaching that. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's wholly other, because it's not. When I look in their faces, I do see the shadow side of what were once some of my dreams and aspirations, and continue to be for some of my teachers from that time." Foolish Rabbi Brad compared the 9/11 hijackers to fellow Jews. Now that's not just foolish; that's what our forefathers used to call beyond the pale. FOXNews.com reported on Feb 17, 2009 that Foolish Rabbi Brad stated the following on the day of Aasiya Zubair Hassan's funeral "I will only say to those who leap to the conclusion that this kind of thing is intrinsic to Islam, ask yourselves if you think that drunkenness is intrinsic to Irish Catholics, or cheating in business is to Jews?" The statement came from Rabbi Brad's foolish "Windows & Doors" blog on beliefnet.com. How can one even begin to respond to such foolishness? Jews in America have a choice. Be foolish and allow Rabbi Brad to participate in organized Jewish life or shun him as the fool he is and hope that he finds a real job more suited to his intellect. Perhaps as a stable boy cleaning horse manure from barns? And now let us join in prayer: May G-d bless and keep Foolish Rabbi Brad far, far away from us. -30- Moshe Phillips is a member of the Executive Committee of the Philadelphia Chapter of Americans For a Safe Israel - AFSI. The chapter's website is at: www.phillyafsi.com and Moshe's blog can be found at http://phillyafsi.blogtownhall.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/5620e8c8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:09:42 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:09:42 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: <855590370903010809s4e036107g7b8c280d853b7a92@mail.gmail.com> Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37 by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, journalist Griff Witte, from the *Washington Post* Foreign Service, wrote: *Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems.* (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, *Washington Post*, February 10, 2009) The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the Messiah. As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to serve *HaShem*, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and *shalom*. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: *In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? * According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of Maimonides to *Mishnah Sanhedrin*, chap. 10). The following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the book *World of Our Fathers*, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and *shalom*. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: *Being a Jew means running forever to God Even if you are His betrayer, Means expecting to hear any day, Even if you are a nay sayer, The blare of Messiah?s horn.* A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the following passage: *A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of *HaShem* will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for *HaShem*. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for *HaShem*; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist.* (Isaiah 11:1-5) In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of *HaShem* will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of *HaShem*.? This verse clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of *HaShem*, but who is not *HaShem*. This verse serves as a reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? (Commentary on the *Haftorot*) The prophet then describes an era of universal *shalom* and spiritual enlightenment: *The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of *HaShem* as water covering the sea bed.* (Isaiah 11:1-9) With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, *HaShem* will bring all our people home: *It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.* (verses 11,12) The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: *For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay.* (Habakkuk 2:3) *Related Teachings and Information* 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us did not merit this experience. The *Chofetz Chaim*, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: *It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known that *HaShem* attaches to every individual his own merit and that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone.* (*Machaneh Yisrael*, "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in *The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity* - Feldheim Publishers) 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief references and allusions to the Messiah: A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as *Targum Onkelos*, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, *Midrash Yalkut Shimoni* says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his *Mishneh Torah*, also interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). C. ?Then *HaShem*, your God, will bring back your captivity and have compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which * HaShem*, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there *HaShem*, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. *HaShem*, your God, will bring you to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/a834dc1f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:35:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:35:41 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "Europe's Woes, America's Warning" Message-ID: <855590370903010835k2125e282n7cae6c28b1454b61@mail.gmail.com> *EUROPE'S WOES AMERICA'S WARNING* by Nidra Poller February 23, 2009 It is difficult to imagine how European nations could find the will and the ways to counter the subversive forces they have invited upon themselves and allowed to flourish for more than three decades. The current phase of global jihad, already underway in the much vaunted decolonization process, coalesced with the seizure of power in Iran by Ayatollah Khomenei (who had been living as a pampered refugee in France). But the American reader should be wary of concluding that Europe is lost?and the United States is standing firm. On the contrary, all of Western civilization is under fire. As promised during the campaign, Barack Hussein Obama is making a radical change in American policy. Not of course the glorious change his worshippers promised themselves, but a troubling shift toward dhimmitude. The newly elected president lost no time in pleading guilty as charged by Muslim authorities and promising to refrain from further rebellion in order to receive their benevolent indulgence. Similar methods produce similar results. Jihad forces in Europe--and in the United States--used Israel?s Cast Lead operation in Gaza as a pretext to organize virulent, violent pro-Hamas demonstrations. Because Europe is further down the path to surrender, the enraged pro-Hamas mobs were more violent, destructive, and physically threatening here than in the United States. But in both cases they advanced their dominion. This should be recognized as authentic conquest of territory by enraged mobs bearing down on hapless victims in an ominous show of force and not, as claimed and widely accepted, citizen demonstrators exercising their right to free speech. If you can carry signs equating the Magen David with the swastika, if you can scream ?Jews to the ovens? in the face of Zionists in Ft. Lauderdale Florida, if you can storm into a synagogue in Caracas, Venezuela and terrorize the congregation, if you can bully the police in England, smash up the Place de l?Op?ra in Paris, burn Israeli and American flags, shout Allahu Akbar without meeting resolute opposition, it means you can keep going and ultimately fulfill those murderous promises. Do American Jews understand what was acquired by these phony demonstrations that are really paramilitary operations? Wherever those enraged mobs set foot they transformed the streets into de facto waqf territory. Each successive crisis is an opportunity to ratchet up Jew hatred and the concomitant assault on Western civilization, achieving, step by step, tacit acceptance of the unspeakable. Here is how it works: first, the provocation. Jihadist attacks?thousands of rockets launched against Israel, a few airplanes flown into the WTC, capture and beheading of hostages, roadside bombs, inhuman pizzeria bombers, nuclear weapons programs?finally provoke a riposte. Bingo! The Muslim wailing machine goes into action. It is immediately picked up by complicit Western media and transmitted, with a Good Journalism stamp of approval, to public opinion. Israel, the United States and anyone else who dares to fight back is accused of war crimes, peace crimes, and original sin. This justifies subsequent acts of subversion and aggression against the free world. When the United States used its formidable military force and assumed its international responsibilities, European nations, with rare exceptions, exploited opposition to ?the war in Iraq? to undermine the American superpower. This agitation was exploited in turn by jihad interests to advance the Islamization of Europe?and by ricochet to influence domestic politics in the United States as Obamamania surfed on the theme of repairing America?s battered image. The European Union, with France in the lead, vaunting its diplomatic savoir faire, competes with the U.S. for influence in the Middle East, and always seems to pull in the Arab direction. French ceasefire diplomacy restrained Israel?s capacity to defeat Iranian proxies?Hizbullah in 2006, Hamas today. The harsh criticism of Israel and the U.S. that underlies this self-righteous peacemaking fuels domestic pro-jihad protest marches that end in attacks against police and property, further undermining government authority in Europe and endangering local Jewish populations. All of this subversive activity is advanced by what I call ?lethal narratives.? These are stories of what is happening generated by global jihad and relayed by Western media and officialdom. Unlike propaganda, which is used in conjunction with military activity aimed at defeating an enemy in battle, lethal narratives are used in lieu of military action. Promotion of enemy propaganda in past conflicts was limited to a small minority of traitors and fellow travelers; today, lethal narratives are swallowed by all but a minority of r?sistants, who are marginalized, labeled extremists, persecuted and prosecuted. Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers who stormed through European cities screaming ?death to Israel, death to the Jews? go scot free but Dutch politician Geert Wilders is prosecuted for ?hate speech? for showing the connection between these same declarations, from Qur'anic verses to contemporary sermons, and murderous acts such as 9/11. The lethal narrative, a tissue of lies made credible by a superficial journalistic veneer, becomes the accepted version of what is happening. G.W. Bush lied about Saddam?s WMDs, the neocons wanted a war in Iraq, torture at Guantanamo, hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, an unbeatable insurgency, the war spawned a thousand terrorists for every one that was killed, etc. Another tissue of lies was issued during the Cast Lead operation: the homemade rockets were harmless; Gaza is an open prison; the Gaza population suffered a humanitarian crisis, no food, water, electricity, medicine; Israel engaged in intentional massacre of civilians, bombing mosques, UN schools, babes in arms and, the last straw, deliberately killed the daughters of the good-hearted doctor who practices in both Gaza and Tel Aviv. In less than a decade life has become problematic for European Jews. It started with the al Dura blood libel on September 30, 2000 and has steadily worsened since. During periods of relative calm, we tell ourselves that the nightmare is over. When the tension exacerbates, as happened during the Gaza operation, it becomes obvious that we have no future anywhere in Europe?and Europe has no future anyway! France, with the largest Muslim and Jewish populations and the greatest diplomatic ambition, is emblematic of the Western European condition. The Sarkozy government is sincerely troubled by the upsurge of anti-Semitism?approximately 150 incidents reported since the start of Cast Lead. The president promises to put an end to this unacceptable behavior but declares, in the next breath, that ?Islamophobia? will be punished as severely as anti-Semitism, falsely implying that Jews are attacking Muslims, and effectively blocking an honest investigation of the Islamic sources of Jew hatred On another level, the ?Obama effect? works against Jews in France and more generally in Europe. Thrilled by the multicultural chic of a black president in the powerful U.S., Europeans vow to give more than equal opportunity to their own ?visible minorities? in the hopes of getting themselves a YesWeCan president in the near future. Unfortunately, the integration of law-abiding Muslims into European society also serves as cover for infiltration by subversive Muslims. Political enfranchisement of European Muslims in the absence of genuine acceptance of Western values is another destabilizing factor. Instead of promoting a peaceful climate of mutual respect, the rise of Muslims into executive positions in public and private sectors may lead to ethnic favoritism that will be prejudicial to Jewish colleagues and candidates, rebuffed to get even for an alleged previous supremacy or punished whenever there is a flare-up in the Middle East. Serious problems in public education, up to the university level, further compromise the future of Europe and more precisely of European Jews. The far left, unashamedly aligned with European jihad movements, proudly marched with pro-Hamas mobs that systematically ended their ?demonstrations? with attacks against property and the police. Fearful of losing ground, the parliamentary left also sidles toward this constituency, hiding its perfidy behind dubious humanitarian concerns. CID [Centre d?information et de documentation de d?mocratie et de Moyen Orient] reports from Brussels that all political parties except the droite lib?rale marched along with the keffieh-wrapped mobs that shouted ?death to Israel, death to the Jews.? Another aggravating factor is the economic crisis, exploited by the left to mobilize and channel discontent into increasingly aggressive demonstrations, strikes and civil disobedience, while the right, hungry for capital, welcomes sharia finance with open arms. In 2003, when Jewish boys from Hashomer Hazair were beaten up by anti-war protestors, I described the incident as a ?peace march verging on pogrom.? Alain Finkielkraut applied the term to the 2005 banlieue riots, then withdrew it as inappropriate. Was it an exaggeration? Or foresight? There can be no doubt that the enraged mobs storming through European and American cities will go further. No longer content to throw fire bombs or ram burning cars into synagogues, they now want to break in during services. Thirty men traveled from Mulhouse to Strasbourg for that purpose. Their plan failed?that time. Carjackers in a Parisian suburb, discovering their victim was Jewish, slashed his neck four times with exquisite cruelty until the blood flowed. That crime was denounced as anti-Semitic but the culprits have not been found, and other incidents are left hanging with question marks, as if to calm the populace. A Jewish doctor was shot dead in another Parisian suburb, the warehouse of the biggest kosher food distributor in still another was burned down. Europeans who do cherish their freedom try to organize, speak out, influence their governments. They see?or saw?America as a refuge, a haven, a beacon of liberty. Many see Israel as a sterling example of r?sistance against global jihad. Though life looks quite normal on the surface, we are living in a perilous, highly volatile situation in which, precisely, normal life is a battlefield. As these lines are written, Iran announces the launch of a satellite that could leave southern European cities no less vulnerable than Sderot. The news landed like a monster walking into a bustling caf?. The excited chatter about peace talks and negotiation and friendly outreached hands falls silent. If existential fear has finally stricken the heart of European governments, all is not lost. Nidra Poller is an American who moved to France in 1972 and is a journalist, novelist, and translator. http://mideastoutpost.com/archives/000541.html ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/61191e6f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:55:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:55:41 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] When you've got time, THIS is a site to check out! Message-ID: <855590370903010855r19df5021g930360b750e3af95@mail.gmail.com> This is a GREAT site for inexpensive, but meaningful gifts from Israel. 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Licensed suppliers of the IDF. [image: http://cts.vresp.com/c/?IsraelMilitary/48be8b657f/1bd529b6ed/86fe7d3208/utm_campaign=Bar Mitzvah Kits, Gifts & Customized T-shirts&utm_content=youngbarzel at aol.com&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_term=HTML Version - Image Link 22] * We are Licensed Suppliers of the IDF* This email has been sent to youngbarzel at aol.com from Israel Military Products Tel.: +972-9-8851777 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/e1a8f50b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Mar 1 11:29:10 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:29:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Ross Nichols Interviews James Tabor Message-ID: <4770CBCC-C526-4837-92FC-2E12052A79A0@earthlink.net> Ross Nichols Interviews Dr. James Tabor Ross Nichols, founder and director of Roots of Faith introduces something new to his podcast audience this week. Nichols, having just completed an intensive 11 week series of studies on Dr. Tabor's latest book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, conducted a half-hour interview with Dr. Tabor about the book, how he came to write it, its essential message, and what how he envisions it contributing to an understanding of biblical truths. Toward the end of the interview Nichols also has Dr. Tabor talk a bit about his forthcoming book on the apostle Paul, scheduled to appear in Spring, 2010 with Simon & Schuster. You can listen to or download this interview at the Roots of Faith Web site here. http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/02/27/ross-nichols-interviews-dr-james-tabor.htm More details about the book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, including readers responses and reviews can be found at the publisher's Web site: genesis2000.org. You will not want to miss this exciting interview with Dr. James D. Tabor. (This message may be circulated freely) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/e437685d/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Mar 1 11:40:20 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:40:20 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss References: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, How high do I jump? ("if we wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long time...LOL") This is THE subject to discuss! I wish I had more to offer concerning this "pull" to the land, but at this point I feel like an observer, (not by choice...but reality), rather then a participant. I do find it interesting that "this jesus" (the jesus in the minds of the so-called missionaries) is still causing problems in the land. The people in these jesus cults do not bother me as much as the moslems that want to cut off my American head. They are both out to get US....sort of like a tag team! I do understand that these jesus cults cause problems for people that are seeking truth and are only trying to follow the narrow path..... a major problem!......something that Is not new to me. One thing that I can offer is that our Father is faithful to finish what was started.......however that is, so label me a Pan Head! (it will pan out) jumping in head first with both eyes closed.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss Am so thankful for Rabbi Singer, who has actually received death threats from "loving" Christians whose cherished misconceptions he confronts Scripture for Scripture. As far as I'm concerned, he is a HERO of our times, and I have supported him in every way I can since the early '90's when I first met him. Would urge all who possibly can afford to do so, to order his teaching tapes. They come with a book which makes understanding the truth of what he is teaching impossible to miss. In his book, you will see each Christian teaching examined carefully according to the Word of G-d. He's the best "preacher" you'll ever hear! And this will be the best money you ever spent! His motivation to begin teaching was to rescue Jews who had fallen into Christianity because of their lack of knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures. What he never expected was that he would awaken the GREAT HERD OF LOST SHEEP from THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES!!!!!!! CHAZAK! CHAZAK, DEAR RABBI SINGER!!!!!! Pat Robbins From: Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:24 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss Shalom John, Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my comments in RED.... Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long time...LOL Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) The Outreach Judaism organization has announced that it is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who target Jews for conversion. It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, whatsoever, to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As John Hulley once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children candy, they just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them.... Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. The series entitled Judaism?s Response to Christian Missionaries will be the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaism founder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from the United States. In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually to ?bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people.? Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though they are speaking about Jesus. ?Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our community to their extremist brand of Christianity,? said Singer, who also hosts his own talk show on Israel National Radio. ?In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a straightforward Christian message,? he added. This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY! Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56by by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going to be very disappointed.... The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is employed and that ?only the ones that are here illegally were picked up.? There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from Egypt in the past year had been hired ?off the books? by the hotels at the Dead Sea, said the source. ?They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents,? she said. ?They can?t seem to tell the difference.? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/f4b6fe50/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 1 13:38:53 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" References: <855590370903010809s4e036107g7b8c280d853b7a92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Achi Hanoch, ? I definitely agree with this article, although it?shows only "one side of the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But?(in my mind) it definitely portrays correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem send the Mashiach today!!! ? And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is Jewish...and he wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. Believing in the resurrection of Yeshua does not make one "non-Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. However, those who believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in error and?will have to?correct their interpretations of him. ? And, if,?most of my?Jewish friends?do not believe in the resurrection of Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and that it is he who will return and fulfill all of what?the article below describes, that's their business...??It will all pan out soon!! ? Shalom u'Brachot, Tracy ________________________________ From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, journalist Griff Witte, from the Washington Post Foreign Service, wrote: Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems. (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, Washington Post, February 10, 2009) The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the Messiah. As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to serve HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and shalom. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of Maimonides to Mishnah Sanhedrin, chap. 10). The following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the book World of Our Fathers, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and shalom. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: Being a Jew means running forever to God Even if you are His betrayer, Means expecting to hear any day, Even if you are a nay sayer, The blare of Messiah?s horn. A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the following passage: A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of HaShemwill rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for HaShem. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for HaShem; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist. (Isaiah 11:1-5) In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of HaShem.? This verse clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of HaShem, but who is not HaShem. This verse serves as a reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? (Commentary on the Haftorot) The prophet then describes an era of universal shalom and spiritual enlightenment: The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of HaShemas water covering the sea bed. (Isaiah 11:1-9) With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, HaShem will bring all our people home: It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (verses 11,12) The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. (Habakkuk 2:3) Related Teachings and Information 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us did not merit this experience. The Chofetz Chaim, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known that HaShemattaches to every individual his own merit and that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone. (Machaneh Yisrael, "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity - Feldheim Publishers) 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief references and allusions to the Messiah: A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as Targum Onkelos, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, Midrash Yalkut Shimoni says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, also interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). C. ?Then HaShem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which HaShem, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there HaShem, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. HaShem, your God, will bring you to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/313a5be7/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Mar 1 14:06:49 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:06:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?The_Census_Goes_to_the_White_House_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=94_What_Are_They_Thinking=3F?= In-Reply-To: <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <855590370903010809s4e036107g7b8c280d853b7a92@mail.gmail.com> <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c99aa9$54fd0b70$fef72250$@com> FOX News Blogs ? FOX Forum ? Betsy Newmark February 9th, 2009 4:57 PM Eastern The Census Goes to the White House ? What Are They Thinking? By Betsy Newmark High School History and Government Teacher In response to concerns that black and Hispanic groups have about Obama?s nominee to head the Department of Commerce, the Obama administration has decided to have the director of the census, normally part of the Commerce Department, report to the White House . This raises a couple of questions. If Gregg is the optimal candidate to be Secretary of Commerce, why does the Obama administration mistrust him to perform one of his primary responsibilities? Either they think he?s a man they can trust or they don?t. Gregg has a record of supporting free trade and that is clearly in the purview of the Commerce Secretary. Are they going to circumvent him on trade issues also? I?d like to see the legal answer from the White House Counsel on circumventing these statutes. It?s not just that it is custom for the Commerce Department to run the Census, it?s actually the law. By moving the line of responsibility for the census to the White House, they are indicating that they don?t really trust him and that Obama picked him more for the political benefits of removing a senior senator from the GOP caucus and increasing Republican chances in taking that seat in 2010 plus for the brownie points of looking bipartisan by inviting a Republican into his cabinet. But if Obama is going to cut him off right from the get go, then Obama is playing politics with both the census and his nomination. Meanwhile, Jennifer Rubin points out that the statutes are very clear on where the authority over the census is located. Somehow, the Obama administration is going to have to find a legal justification for going against what seems pretty well laid out in the actual laws governing the census. Congress has ?directed? in Title 13 that the Census be carried out by the Bureau of the Census ?as an agency within, and under the jurisdiction of, the Department of Commerce.? 13 U.S.C. 2. The Secretary of Commerce is directed to carry out the duties of this title and while he can delegate ?the performance of such functions and duties,? he can only do so to ?officers and employees of the Department of Commerce.? 13 U.S.C. 4. So what Obama is doing by having the Census Bureaus report directly to the White House is not authorized by federal law. Also, only ?sworn officers and employees of the Department or bureau? are allowed to examine individual census reports. This is part of the confidentiality requirements of Section 9 of the law. Depending on what kinds of reports and information would be given to the White House, there could also be a violation of this confidentiality requirement. Interesting. I?d like to see the legal answer from the White House Counsel on circumventing these statutes. It?s not just that it is custom for the Commerce Department to run the census, it?s actually the law. And finally, how would the Democrats appreciate the idea of a Republican president, say George W. Bush, putting the control something as political as the census in the White House in violation of the laws governing the census? I think we can imagine the outrage that move would arouse among the Democrats. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/92487038/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Sun Mar 1 15:18:50 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:18:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Ross Nichols Interviews James Tabor References: <49AACD26.653BF.7C1B@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: Ross, First of all, thank-you for the interview. Other than wishing it were longer, I thought you did a great job! Of particular interest to me, were Prof Tabor's references to specific Hebrew words, and some of the depth expressed by those words, which do not translate that same depth into English. Hopefully, some day, you can do an interview with Prof. Tabor where you go more in depth just on the word Friend of G-d, etc. Thank-you for sharing. Stephen Tikkun Tzedek From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Sun Mar 1 15:30:08 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:30:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] "Europe's Woes, America's Warning" References: <49AABE12.E5314.67BC@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: I think of the years which European countries sought to have dominion over other countries in the world, and now, reaping other countries or Islamic families having dominion over them... There was a time in history where England said that the Sun never set on the English empire. Perhaps it is finally setting. Stephen Tikkun Tzedek *EUROPE'S WOES AMERICA'S WARNING* by Nidra Poller February 23, 2009 It is difficult to imagine how European nations could find the will and the ways to counter the subversive forces they have invited upon themselves and allowed to flourish for more than three decades. The current phase of global jihad, already underway in the much vaunted decolonization process, coalesced with the seizure of power in Iran by Ayatollah Khomenei (who had been living as a pampered refugee in France). But the American reader should be wary of concluding that Europe is lost.and the United States is standing firm. On the contrary, all of Western civilization is under fire. As promised during the campaign, Barack Hussein Obama is making a radical change in American policy. Not of course the glorious change his worshippers promised themselves, but a troubling shift toward dhimmitude. The newly elected president lost no time in pleading guilty as charged by Muslim authorities and promising to refrain from further rebellion in order to receive their benevolent indulgence. Similar methods produce similar results. Jihad forces in Europe--and in the United States--used Israel's Cast Lead operation in Gaza as a pretext to organize virulent, violent pro-Hamas demonstrations. Because Europe is further down the path to surrender, the enraged pro-Hamas mobs were more violent, destructive, and physically threatening here than in the United States. But in both cases they advanced their dominion. This should be recognized as authentic conquest of territory by enraged mobs bearing down on hapless victims in an ominous show of force and not, as claimed and widely accepted, citizen demonstrators exercising their right to free speech. If you can carry signs equating the Magen David with the swastika, if you can scream "Jews to the ovens" in the face of Zionists in Ft. Lauderdale Florida, if you can storm into a synagogue in Caracas, Venezuela and terrorize the congregation, if you can bully the police in England, smash up the Place de l'Op?ra in Paris, burn Israeli and American flags, shout Allahu Akbar without meeting resolute opposition, it means you can keep going and ultimately fulfill those murderous promises. Do American Jews understand what was acquired by these phony demonstrations that are really paramilitary operations? Wherever those enraged mobs set foot they transformed the streets into de facto waqf territory. Each successive crisis is an opportunity to ratchet up Jew hatred and the concomitant assault on Western civilization, achieving, step by step, tacit acceptance of the unspeakable. Here is how it works: first, the provocation. Jihadist attacks?thousands of rockets launched against Israel, a few airplanes flown into the WTC, capture and beheading of hostages, roadside bombs, inhuman pizzeria bombers, nuclear weapons programs?finally provoke a riposte. Bingo! The Muslim wailing machine goes into action. It is immediately picked up by complicit Western media and transmitted, with a Good Journalism stamp of approval, to public opinion. Israel, the United States and anyone else who dares to fight back is accused of war crimes, peace crimes, and original sin. This justifies subsequent acts of subversion and aggression against the free world. When the United States used its formidable military force and assumed its international responsibilities, European nations, with rare exceptions, exploited opposition to "the war in Iraq" to undermine the American superpower. This agitation was exploited in turn by jihad interests to advance the Islamization of Europe.and by ricochet to influence domestic politics in the United States as Obamamania surfed on the theme of repairing America's battered image. The European Union, with France in the lead, vaunting its diplomatic savoir faire, competes with the U.S. for influence in the Middle East, and always seems to pull in the Arab direction. French ceasefire diplomacy restrained Israel's capacity to defeat Iranian proxies?Hizbullah in 2006, Hamas today. The harsh criticism of Israel and the U.S. that underlies this self-righteous peacemaking fuels domestic pro-jihad protest marches that end in attacks against police and property, further undermining government authority in Europe and endangering local Jewish populations. All of this subversive activity is advanced by what I call "lethal narratives." These are stories of what is happening generated by global jihad and relayed by Western media and officialdom. Unlike propaganda, which is used in conjunction with military activity aimed at defeating an enemy in battle, lethal narratives are used in lieu of military action. Promotion of enemy propaganda in past conflicts was limited to a small minority of traitors and fellow travelers; today, lethal narratives are swallowed by all but a minority of r?sistants, who are marginalized, labeled extremists, persecuted and prosecuted. Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers who stormed through European cities screaming "death to Israel, death to the Jews" go scot free but Dutch politician Geert Wilders is prosecuted for "hate speech" for showing the connection between these same declarations, from Qur'anic verses to contemporary sermons, and murderous acts such as 9/11. The lethal narrative, a tissue of lies made credible by a superficial journalistic veneer, becomes the accepted version of what is happening. G.W. Bush lied about Saddam's WMDs, the neocons wanted a war in Iraq, torture at Guantanamo, hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, an unbeatable insurgency, the war spawned a thousand terrorists for every one that was killed, etc. Another tissue of lies was issued during the Cast Lead operation: the homemade rockets were harmless; Gaza is an open prison; the Gaza population suffered a humanitarian crisis, no food, water, electricity, medicine; Israel engaged in intentional massacre of civilians, bombing mosques, UN schools, babes in arms and, the last straw, deliberately killed the daughters of the good-hearted doctor who practices in both Gaza and Tel Aviv. In less than a decade life has become problematic for European Jews. It started with the al Dura blood libel on September 30, 2000 and has steadily worsened since. During periods of relative calm, we tell ourselves that the nightmare is over. When the tension exacerbates, as happened during the Gaza operation, it becomes obvious that we have no future anywhere in Europe ?and Europe has no future anyway! France, with the largest Muslim and Jewish populations and the greatest diplomatic ambition, is emblematic of the Western European condition. The Sarkozy government is sincerely troubled by the upsurge of anti-Semitism?approximately 150 incidents reported since the start of Cast Lead. The president promises to put an end to this unacceptable behavior but declares, in the next breath, that "Islamophobia" will be punished as severely as anti-Semitism, falsely implying that Jews are attacking Muslims, and effectively blocking an honest investigation of the Islamic sources of Jew hatred On another level, the "Obama effect" works against Jews in France and more generally in Europe. Thrilled by the multicultural chic of a black president in the powerful U.S., Europeans vow to give more than equal opportunity to their own "visible minorities" in the hopes of getting themselves a YesWeCan president in the near future. Unfortunately, the integration of law-abiding Muslims into European society also serves as cover for infiltration by subversive Muslims. Political enfranchisement of European Muslims in the absence of genuine acceptance of Western values is another destabilizing factor. Instead of promoting a peaceful climate of mutual respect, the rise of Muslims into executive positions in public and private sectors may lead to ethnic favoritism that will be prejudicial to Jewish colleagues and candidates, rebuffed to get even for an alleged previous supremacy or punished whenever there is a flare-up in the Middle East. Serious problems in public education, up to the university level, further compromise the future of Europe and more precisely of European Jews. The far left, unashamedly aligned with European jihad movements, proudly marched with pro-Hamas mobs that systematically ended their "demonstrations" with attacks against property and the police. Fearful of losing ground, the parliamentary left also sidles toward this constituency, hiding its perfidy behind dubious humanitarian concerns. CID [Centre d'information et de documentation de d?mocratie et de Moyen Orient] reports from Brussels that all political parties except the droite lib?rale marched along with the keffieh-wrapped mobs that shouted "death to Israel, death to the Jews." Another aggravating factor is the economic crisis, exploited by the left to mobilize and channel discontent into increasingly aggressive demonstrations, strikes and civil disobedience, while the right, hungry for capital, welcomes sharia finance with open arms. In 2003, when Jewish boys from Hashomer Hazair were beaten up by anti-war protestors, I described the incident as a "peace march verging on pogrom." Alain Finkielkraut applied the term to the 2005 banlieue riots, then withdrew it as inappropriate. Was it an exaggeration? Or foresight? There can be no doubt that the enraged mobs storming through European and American cities will go further. No longer content to throw fire bombs or ram burning cars into synagogues, they now want to break in during services. Thirty men traveled from Mulhouse to Strasbourg for that purpose. Their plan failed.that time. Carjackers in a Parisian suburb, discovering their victim was Jewish, slashed his neck four times with exquisite cruelty until the blood flowed. That crime was denounced as anti-Semitic but the culprits have not been found, and other incidents are left hanging with question marks, as if to calm the populace. A Jewish doctor was shot dead in another Parisian suburb, the warehouse of the biggest kosher food distributor in still another was burned down. Europeans who do cherish their freedom try to organize, speak out, influence their governments. They see?or saw?America as a refuge, a haven, a beacon of liberty. Many see Israel as a sterling example of r?sistance against global jihad. Though life looks quite normal on the surface, we are living in a perilous, highly volatile situation in which, precisely, normal life is a battlefield. As these lines are written, Iran announces the launch of a satellite that could leave southern European cities no less vulnerable than Sderot. The news landed like a monster walking into a bustling caf?. The excited chatter about peace talks and negotiation and friendly outreached hands falls silent. If existential fear has finally stricken the heart of European governments, all is not lost. Nidra Poller is an American who moved to France in 1972 and is a journalist, novelist, and translator. From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 18:45:51 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:45:51 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "What a Hobby!" Message-ID: <855590370903011645w40b36d77ia6fb03ddb6b13a8f@mail.gmail.com> Generation Z Blog - Israelnationalnews.com (Arutz-7) Adar 5, 5769, 3/1/2009 What a Hobby! *Subject: Model of Temple * *Content:* Good morning Yishai! Saw this in the London Daily Mail today and thought it was quite interesting. Thought you might like to see it. Take care! Olivia *Pensioner spends 30 years building amazing model of Herod's Temple ... but admits he won't be around to finish it* Brick by brick, tiny figure by tiny figure, Alec Garrard has painstakingly worked for 30 years on an astonishing recreation of Herod's Temple. But despite spending all that time and effort the retired farmer believes he won't finish it in his lifetime as he keeps finding things to add to it. In contrast, legend has it that the original construction of the entire complex lasted only three years, although historians believe it took far longer. It was his fascination for religion and buildings which first started Alec on the Biblical project which now measures 20ft by 12ft and is housed in a seperate building in his garden. His version is so impressive that some of the world's top archaeologists and experts from the British Museum have come to view it. 'It's now recognised as the most authentic version of the temple in the world,' he said. 'I've had a lot of offers from people to buy it, but it's not for sale.' And while he sees it as a form of relaxation, he says his wife thinks he is mad. 'She wishes she'd married a normal person,' he said. The original temple was built in 19BC by King Herod the Great but was flattened in AD70 by Roman troops under Emperor Titus during the Siege of Jerusalem, just six years after completion. In its heyday the complex covered 36 acres - four times the area of Windsor Castle. Today, all that remains of the temple is the Western Wall or so-called Wailing Wall. The temple itself was located on the site of the Islamic shrine the Dome of the Rock. When [the J-man] came to Jerusalem, the temple had just been rebuilt and it was in an area known as Solomon's Porch that he argued with rabbis, amazing them with his questions and answers. Herod, keen to perpetuate his name through building projects, ensured that the temple dominated the Jerusalem landscape, effectively becoming its focal point. The ambitious project involved an estimated 10,000 workers more than doubling the size of the pre-existing site. This was done by cutting away rock, constructing walls and then filling the areas with earth and rubble. Two years ago an archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority announced the discovery of a quarry which may have provided Herod with the stones to build the temple. Coins and pottery tied the date to 19BC while large outlines of the stone cuts was seen as evidence of a massive public project worked by hundreds of slaves. For his part, Mr Garrard, 78, has dedicated 33,000 hours to constructing his model and has hand-baked and painted every clay brick and tile and even sculpted 4,000 tiny human figures to populate the courtyards. Historical experts believe the model, which has attracted thousands of visitors from all over the globe, is the best representation in the world of what the Jewish temple actually looked like. 'I have been working on it for decades but it will never be finished as I'm always finding something new to add,' he said. 'I've always loved making models and as I was getting older I started to think about making one big project which would see me through to the end of my life. Mr Garrard said he had seen one or two models of the temple and thought he could do better so began building one himself. 'I have an interest in buildings and religion so I thought maybe I could combine the two and I came up with the idea of doing the temple,' he said. The original temple featured the Court of the Priests, where the animals were prepared for sacrifice, the Golden Vine at the entrance to the Temple and the Eastern Gate. Since the day the temple was destroyed scholars have argued over the detail of its construction. Mr Garrard has sculpted 4,000 half-inch figures to populate the courtyards. Each one takes three hours to make. Mr Garrard, from Norfolk, spent more than three years researching the temple, which was destroyed by the Romans 2,000 years ago and deemed to be one of the most remarkable buildings of ancient times. He then started to construct the amazing 1:100 scale model. 'Everything is made by hand. I cut plywood frames for the walls and buildings and all the clay bricks and tiles were baked in the oven then stuck together,' he said. As well as having religious services, the temple had a bazaar, people selling souvenirs, as well as currency changers, exchanging Roman for Jewish money, as mentioned in the New Testament account of [the J-Man] and the money changers. 'I have also sculpted and painted 4,000 figures, measuring just half an inch and all wearing their correct costumes. 'Each one takes about three hours to make and there are 32 versions of [the J-Man], although no one can ever spot him no matter how religious they are.' Mr Garrard still spends hours working on the model every day. 'I look upon it as a work of art, there is lots of detail and I want it to look as real as possible,' he said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/4d827314/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 18:56:03 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:56:03 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "Busting the Demography Scare Bubble in Israel" Message-ID: <855590370903011656k7680831dq9dc912bdcf55c2f2@mail.gmail.com> Erev Tov, I found the article below pretty interesting on a number of levels, even though it doesn't take Ephramites into account; which wouldn't be possible at this point, in any case. * Hanoch* * Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* March 01, 2009 Bursting the Demography Scare Bubble in Israel *Redacted from an article by Yoram Ettinger* *The Jerusalem Post, February 23, 2009* The bubble of demographic fatalism is bursting, according to the most recent data, published by the* Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (ICBS). *The data should be leveraged, by the government, to formulate a demographic policy aimed at *increasing the current 67 percent Jewish majority, west of the Jordan River (without Gaza). *The policy would uproot demographic fatalism and advance demographic optimism, thus energizing aliya, *(the immigration of Jews to Israel)* the economy, overseas investments, diplomacy, national security, posture of deterrence and minimizing Jewish-Arab tension, which is fed by demographic fear. According to the ICBS, the country's Jewish population is getting younger and the Arab population getting older. The number of annual Jewish births increased by 45% between 1995 (80,400) and 2008 (117,000), as a result of aliya from the USSR, the shift by the Soviet Olim *(Russian immigrants already in Israel)* from a typical Russian rate of one birth per woman to a typical Israeli rate of two-three births. This is the rising secular Jewish rate and the sustained high Orthodox and Haredi *(Ultra Orthodox religious)*rate. The number of annual Arab births has stabilized - since 1995 - at around 39,000, reflecting a most successful integration by Arabs into the country's infrastructures of education, health, human services, commerce, finance, culture, sports and politics. The fertility gap is down from six births per woman in 1969 to 0.7 in 2009, and the proportion of Jewish births has grown from 69% (of total births) in 1995 and 74% in 2007 to 75% in 2008. The downward trend typifies, also, the Arabs in Judea and Samaria due to large scale emigration, entrenched family planning, reduction of teen pregnancy, rapid urbanization, expanded education, especially among women, record divorce rate and higher median marriage age. The Westernization of Arab fertility rate (3.5 births per woman in pre-1967 Israel and four in Judea and Samaria) is apparent throughout most of the Arab and Muslim world. For instance, the 2008 map of the UN Population Division documents an average fertility rate of two-four births, compared with over four births 30 years ago. Even Yemen, the flagship of robust Arab demography, is adopting family planning. This month it approved a new law setting the minimum age for marriage at 17 for boys and girls, prohibiting marriage without the consent of the woman and benefiting divorced women. *THE JEWISH DEMOGRAPHIC tailwind behooves the new government to introduce a demographic road map, which would increase the Jewish majority, while respecting the rights of the Arab minority: * 1. Placing aliya at the top of the order of national priorities, as expected from the Jewish state and as required by economic and security challenges. The global economic meltdown, and the rise in anti-Semitism should be leveraged to increase aliya from the former USSR, US, Europe, Latin America and South Africa. 2. The conversion of some 250,000 Olim from the former USSR - in accordance with Jewish laws - should be expedited. 3. Jewish immigration to - instead of emigration from - Jerusalem would be facilitated by the availability of jobs and lower-cost housing, created through entrepreneurs attracted by a drastic enhancement of the city's infrastructure (airport, fast railroad, Loop, additional freeway, industrial and residential zones). 4. Enticing the return of expatriates and reducing the number of quality emigrants by improving education and research and development infrastructures. 5. Expanding high school and academic programs for prospective Olim. 6. Significant development of infrastructure in the Galilee and in the Negev, triggering emigration from the Greater Tel Aviv area, which would yield economic, environmental and demographic benefits. 7. Synchronizing an industrial and educational 9-5 schedule, which would facilitate raising children and obtaining employment. 8. The establishment of a global Jewish foundation, which would support Jewish fertility worldwide, in view of high assimilation, low fertility rates among non-Israeli Jews and Holocaust-driven demographic challenges. In 1949, David Ben-Gurion considered demography a top priority to salvage the Jewish state, thus transferring to his successors a foundation for a long-term robust Jewish majority. In 2009, the new government will enjoy an impressive critical mass of demography, military, economy and technology. Will it resurrect the Ben-Gurion legacy and buttress the future of the Jewish state by reinforcing Jewish majority? *Ambassador Yoram Ettinger is a consultant on US-Israel relations as well as the Chairman of Special Projects at the Ariel Center for Policy Research.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/f2999817/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 19:09:16 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:09:16 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <855590370903010809s4e036107g7b8c280d853b7a92@mail.gmail.com> <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370903011709x9ce9553r2a93f24526faeacf@mail.gmail.com> Hey Tracy, How's things? Glad you had a chance to read the article - and yes, it was written with only one perspective in mind. And I truly hope that it all does "pan out soon" as you put it, because this world is getting worse and worse... Take care achi! * Hanoch* *Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim * On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom Achi Hanoch, > > I definitely agree with this article, although it shows only "one side of > the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But (in my mind) it definitely portrays > correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem send the Mashiach today!!! > > And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is Jewish...and he > wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. Believing in the resurrection > of Yeshua does not make one "non-Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. > However, those who believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in > error and will have to correct their interpretations of him. > > And, if, most of my Jewish friends do not believe in the resurrection of > Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and that it is he who will > return and fulfill all of what the article below describes, that's their > business... It will all pan out soon!! > > > > Shalom u'Brachot, > > Tracy > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Hanoch Young > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" > > Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37 > by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen > > (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, > journalist Griff Witte, from the *Washington Post* Foreign Service, wrote: > > > *Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the > national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread > anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. > There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in > sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the > ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems.*(>From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, > *Washington Post*, February 10, 2009) > > The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is > disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various > political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This > disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership > and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to > Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As > a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the > Messiah. > > As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be > a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to > serve *HaShem*, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby > inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and *shalom*. > > Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become > the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh > Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my > life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay > titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: > > *In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought > have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were > far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the > coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, > this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision > much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical > than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the > dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual > creativity?* > > According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the > Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of > Maimonides to *Mishnah Sanhedrin*, chap. 10). The following statement is > the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: > > ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even > though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? > > The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the > consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view > themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the > book *World of Our Fathers*, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic > yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive > activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was > secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in > the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and > inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and *shalom*. In one > chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron > Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: > > *Being a Jew means running forever to God > Even if you are His betrayer, > Means expecting to hear any day, > Even if you are a nay sayer, > The blare of Messiah?s horn.* > > A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the > Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the > following passage: > > *A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from > his roots. The spirit of *HaShem* will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom > and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge > and reverence for *HaShem*. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence > for *HaShem*; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor > decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with > righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will > strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips > he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his > loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist.* (Isaiah 11:1-5) > > In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of *HaShem* will rest upon > him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and > strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of *HaShem*.? This verse clearly > indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of > *HaShem*, but who is not *HaShem*. This verse serves as a reminder that we > are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. > > It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and > with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi > Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will > come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through > these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness > within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly > been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? > (Commentary on the *Haftorot*) > > The prophet then describes an era of universal *shalom* and spiritual > enlightenment: > > *The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the > kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will > lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; > and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s > hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s > lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for > the earth will be filled with knowledge of *HaShem* as water covering the > sea bed.* (Isaiah 11:1-9) > > With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, *HaShem* will > bring all our people home: > > *It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His > hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the > nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the > dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.* (verses > 11,12) > > The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he > arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all > of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not > to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, > he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: > > *For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will > speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for > it will surely come; it will not delay.* (Habakkuk 2:3) > > *Related Teachings and Information* > 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming > of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us > did not merit this experience. The *Chofetz Chaim*, a leading sage of the > late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: > > *It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known > that *HaShem* attaches to every individual his own merit and that of his > ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther > than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is > greater than theirs alone.* (*Machaneh Yisrael*, "Last Section", Chapter > 20 - cited in *The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity* - Feldheim Publishers) > > > 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the > messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is > Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the > disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares > and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against > nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) > > 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief > references and allusions to the Messiah: > > A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - > before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival > of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis > 49:10) > > The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as *Targum Onkelos*, > refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, *Midrash Yalkut Shimoni* says > that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the > interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, > the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the > following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that > day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, > nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? > (Isaiah 11:10) > > B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near > future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from > Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, > Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. > Maimonides, in his *Mishneh Torah*, also interprets this verse in a > similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). > > C. ?Then *HaShem*, your God, will bring back your captivity and have > compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which > *HaShem*, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the > ends of heaven, from there *HaShem*, your God, will gather you in and from > there He will take you. *HaShem*, your God, will bring you to the Land > that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to > you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) > > According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption > which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states > regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait > for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also > the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/03cf8c34/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 1 19:12:40 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:12:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <247680.51907.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom All, ? My mind has been almost consumed with this very thought lately and not just Zion needing the Messiah but the whole world. In all the topics we have discussed lately especially regarding the law of return , ephramites, keeping Torah for non jews etc. I think of how it is going to take HaShem's kingdom here on Earth to get it all straightened out! One topic that I haven't seen discussed is that of Messiah Ben Joseph. James Tabor in his book RAF lightly touches on the fact that Yeshua did not fulfill the Davidic role of Messiah and that most Christians feel he did and is fulfilling that role in the spiritual realm.? This is one of the major reasons(along with Yeshua being G-d and Torah being abrogated) Jewish faith has rejected Yeshua as Messiah. However, there is Rabbinic midrash about the fact that Scriptures show two different demeanors of Messiah. One of a humble servant riding on a lowly donkey and one as conquering King. Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David. James makes the point in his book that the Jewish brethen would have no problem if Yeshua of Nazareth would come back as Messiah Ben David they just feel that possiblity to be highly unlikely. It is possible that Yeshua will be the one to fulfill both roles. ? Joseph was made viceroy to Pharoh. He was given all authority, power and honor by Pharoh but he was not Pharoh. Jacob and Joseph's 11 brothers all bowed down to Joseph. Not as their G-d but as the one chosen by G-d. This was to fulfill Joseph's dream but is that it? Was the meaning of this deeper? ? There has now come a time after?2000 years of bad theology, miscommunication, mistrust, criminal acts and on and on to have meaningful dialogue about these thoughts. Are the scars too deep? Probably. We need Messiah. ?Some have a longing to live in Israel so deep in their souls they will move there no matter the conditions while others can see that because of the above they will have to wait till Messiah brings them there. We need Messiah. ? I believe when Messiah comes or returns to Earth both Jew and Gentile will have some surprises but then both sides will be really ready to listen to one another. One thing I think both sides can agree on is that We need Messiah! ? Susie --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:38 AM Shalom Achi Hanoch, ? I definitely agree with this article, although it?shows only "one side of the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But?(in my mind) it definitely portrays correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem send the Mashiach today!!! ? And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is Jewish...and he wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. Believing in the resurrection of Yeshua does not make one "non-Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. However, those who believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in error and?will have to?correct their interpretations of him. ? And, if,?most of my?Jewish friends?do not believe in the resurrection of Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and that it is he who will return and fulfill all of what?the article below describes, that's their business...??It will all pan out soon!! ? Shalom u'Brachot, Tracy From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, journalist Griff Witte, from the Washington Post Foreign Service, wrote: Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems. (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, Washington Post, February 10, 2009) The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the Messiah. As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to serve HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and shalom. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of Maimonides to Mishnah Sanhedrin, chap. 10). The following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the book World of Our Fathers, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and shalom. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: Being a Jew means running forever to God Even if you are His betrayer, Means expecting to hear any day, Even if you are a nay sayer, The blare of Messiah?s horn. A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the following passage: A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for HaShem. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for HaShem; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist. (Isaiah 11:1-5) In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of HaShem.? This verse clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of HaShem, but who is not HaShem. This verse serves as a reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? (Commentary on the Haftorot) The prophet then describes an era of universal shalom and spiritual enlightenment: The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of HaShem as water covering the sea bed. (Isaiah 11:1-9) With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, HaShem will bring all our people home: It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (verses 11,12) The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. (Habakkuk 2:3) Related Teachings and Information 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us did not merit this experience. The Chofetz Chaim, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known that HaShem attaches to every individual his own merit and that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone. (Machaneh Yisrael, "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity - Feldheim Publishers) 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief references and allusions to the Messiah: A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as Targum Onkelos, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, Midrash Yalkut Shimoni says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, also interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). C. ?Then HaShem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which HaShem, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there HaShem, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. HaShem, your God, will bring you to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/73e8263a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 19:12:46 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:12:46 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] "Europe's Woes, America's Warning" In-Reply-To: References: <49AABE12.E5314.67BC@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <855590370903011712hde69190wd3e2adc5b5a2498f@mail.gmail.com> Hey Stephen, I'm starting to wonder if America is in the state of eclipse that the UK experienced after WWII. Only time will tell, I guess... * Hanoch * On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 1:30 PM, stephen wrote: > I think of the years which European countries sought to have > dominion over other countries in the world, and now, reaping > other countries or Islamic families having dominion over them... > > There was a time in history where England said that the Sun > never set on the English empire. > > Perhaps it is finally setting. > > Stephen > > Tikkun Tzedek > > *EUROPE'S WOES AMERICA'S WARNING* > by Nidra Poller > February 23, 2009 > > It is difficult to imagine how European nations could find the will and the > ways to counter the subversive forces they have invited upon themselves and > allowed to flourish for more than three decades. The current phase of > global > jihad, already underway in the much vaunted decolonization process, > coalesced with the seizure of power in Iran by Ayatollah Khomenei (who had > been living as a pampered refugee in France). But the American reader > should > be wary of concluding that Europe is lost.and the United States is standing > firm. > > On the contrary, all of Western civilization is under fire. As promised > during the campaign, Barack Hussein Obama is making a radical change in > American policy. Not of course the glorious change his worshippers promised > themselves, but a troubling shift toward dhimmitude. The newly elected > president lost no time in pleading guilty as charged by Muslim authorities > and promising to refrain from further rebellion in order to receive their > benevolent indulgence. > > Similar methods produce similar results. Jihad forces in Europe--and in the > United States--used Israel's Cast Lead operation in Gaza as a pretext to > organize virulent, violent pro-Hamas demonstrations. Because Europe is > further down the path to surrender, the enraged pro-Hamas mobs were more > violent, destructive, and physically threatening here than in the United > States. But in both cases they advanced their dominion. This should be > recognized as authentic conquest of territory by enraged mobs bearing down > on hapless victims in an ominous show of force and not, as claimed and > widely accepted, citizen demonstrators exercising their right to free > speech. > > If you can carry signs equating the Magen David with the swastika, if you > can scream "Jews to the ovens" in the face of Zionists in Ft. Lauderdale > Florida, if you can storm into a synagogue in Caracas, Venezuela and > terrorize the congregation, if you can bully the police in England, smash > up > the Place de l'Op?ra in Paris, burn Israeli and American flags, shout > Allahu > Akbar without meeting resolute opposition, it means you can keep going and > ultimately fulfill those murderous promises. Do American Jews understand > what was acquired by these phony demonstrations that are really > paramilitary > operations? Wherever those enraged mobs set foot they transformed the > streets into de facto waqf territory. > > Each successive crisis is an opportunity to ratchet up Jew hatred and the > concomitant assault on Western civilization, achieving, step by step, tacit > acceptance of the unspeakable. Here is how it works: first, the > provocation. > Jihadist attacks?thousands of rockets launched against Israel, a few > airplanes flown into the WTC, capture and beheading of hostages, roadside > bombs, inhuman pizzeria bombers, nuclear weapons programs?finally provoke a > riposte. Bingo! The Muslim wailing machine goes into action. It is > immediately picked up by complicit Western media and transmitted, with a > Good Journalism stamp of approval, to public opinion. Israel, the United > States and anyone else who dares to fight back is accused of war crimes, > peace crimes, and original sin. This justifies subsequent acts of > subversion > and aggression against the free world. > > When the United States used its formidable military force and assumed its > international responsibilities, European nations, with rare exceptions, > exploited opposition to "the war in Iraq" to undermine the American > superpower. This agitation was exploited in turn by jihad interests to > advance the Islamization of Europe.and by ricochet to influence domestic > politics in the United States as Obamamania surfed on the theme of > repairing > America's battered image. > > The European Union, with France in the lead, vaunting its diplomatic savoir > faire, competes with the U.S. for influence in the Middle East, and always > seems to pull in the Arab direction. French ceasefire diplomacy restrained > Israel's capacity to defeat Iranian proxies?Hizbullah in 2006, Hamas today. > The harsh criticism of Israel and the U.S. that underlies this > self-righteous peacemaking fuels domestic pro-jihad protest marches that > end > in attacks against police and property, further undermining government > authority in Europe and endangering local Jewish populations. > > All of this subversive activity is advanced by what I call "lethal > narratives." These are stories of what is happening generated by global > jihad and relayed by Western media and officialdom. Unlike propaganda, > which > is used in conjunction with military activity aimed at defeating an enemy > in > battle, lethal narratives are used in lieu of military action. Promotion of > enemy propaganda in past conflicts was limited to a small minority of > traitors and fellow travelers; today, lethal narratives are swallowed by > all > but a minority of r?sistants, who are marginalized, labeled extremists, > persecuted and prosecuted. Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers who stormed > through European cities screaming "death to Israel, death to the Jews" go > scot free but Dutch politician Geert Wilders is prosecuted for "hate > speech" > for showing the connection between these same declarations, from Qur'anic > verses to contemporary sermons, and murderous acts such as 9/11. > > The lethal narrative, a tissue of lies made credible by a superficial > journalistic veneer, becomes the accepted version of what is happening. > G.W. > Bush lied about Saddam's WMDs, the neocons wanted a war in Iraq, torture at > Guantanamo, hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, an unbeatable > insurgency, the war spawned a thousand terrorists for every one that was > killed, etc. Another tissue of lies was issued during the Cast Lead > operation: the homemade rockets were harmless; Gaza is an open prison; the > Gaza population suffered a humanitarian crisis, no food, water, > electricity, > medicine; Israel engaged in intentional massacre of civilians, bombing > mosques, UN schools, babes in arms and, the last straw, deliberately killed > the daughters of the good-hearted doctor who practices in both Gaza and Tel > Aviv. > > In less than a decade life has become problematic for European Jews. It > started with the al Dura blood libel on September 30, 2000 and has steadily > worsened since. During periods of relative calm, we tell ourselves that the > nightmare is over. When the tension exacerbates, as happened during the > Gaza > operation, it becomes obvious that we have no future anywhere in Europe > ?and > Europe has no future anyway! > > France, with the largest Muslim and Jewish populations and the greatest > diplomatic ambition, is emblematic of the Western European condition. The > Sarkozy government is sincerely troubled by the upsurge of > anti-Semitism?approximately 150 incidents reported since the start of Cast > Lead. The president promises to put an end to this unacceptable behavior > but > declares, in the next breath, that "Islamophobia" will be punished as > severely as anti-Semitism, falsely implying that Jews are attacking > Muslims, > and effectively blocking an honest investigation of the Islamic sources of > Jew hatred > > On another level, the "Obama effect" works against Jews in France and more > generally in Europe. Thrilled by the multicultural chic of a black > president > in the powerful U.S., Europeans vow to give more than equal opportunity to > their own "visible minorities" in the hopes of getting themselves a > YesWeCan > president in the near future. Unfortunately, the integration of law-abiding > Muslims into European society also serves as cover for infiltration by > subversive Muslims. > > Political enfranchisement of European Muslims in the absence of genuine > acceptance of Western values is another destabilizing factor. Instead of > promoting a peaceful climate of mutual respect, the rise of Muslims into > executive positions in public and private sectors may lead to ethnic > favoritism that will be prejudicial to Jewish colleagues and candidates, > rebuffed to get even for an alleged previous supremacy or punished whenever > there is a flare-up in the Middle East. Serious problems in public > education, up to the university level, further compromise the future of > Europe and more precisely of European Jews. > > The far left, unashamedly aligned with European jihad movements, proudly > marched with pro-Hamas mobs that systematically ended their > "demonstrations" > with attacks against property and the police. Fearful of losing ground, the > parliamentary left also sidles toward this constituency, hiding its perfidy > behind dubious humanitarian concerns. CID [Centre d'information et de > documentation de d?mocratie et de Moyen Orient] reports from Brussels that > all political parties except the droite lib?rale marched along with the > keffieh-wrapped mobs that shouted "death to Israel, death to the Jews." > Another aggravating factor is the economic crisis, exploited by the left to > mobilize and channel discontent into increasingly aggressive > demonstrations, > strikes and civil disobedience, while the right, hungry for capital, > welcomes sharia finance with open arms. > > In 2003, when Jewish boys from Hashomer Hazair were beaten up by anti-war > protestors, I described the incident as a "peace march verging on pogrom." > Alain Finkielkraut applied the term to the 2005 banlieue riots, then > withdrew it as inappropriate. Was it an exaggeration? Or foresight? There > can be no doubt that the enraged mobs storming through European and > American > cities will go further. > > No longer content to throw fire bombs or ram burning cars into synagogues, > they now want to break in during services. Thirty men traveled from > Mulhouse > to Strasbourg for that purpose. Their plan failed.that time. Carjackers in > a > Parisian suburb, discovering their victim was Jewish, slashed his neck four > times with exquisite cruelty until the blood flowed. That crime was > denounced as anti-Semitic but the culprits have not been found, and other > incidents are left hanging with question marks, as if to calm the populace. > A Jewish doctor was shot dead in another Parisian suburb, the warehouse of > the biggest kosher food distributor in still another was burned down. > > Europeans who do cherish their freedom try to organize, speak out, > influence > their governments. They see?or saw?America as a refuge, a haven, a beacon > of > liberty. Many see Israel as a sterling example of r?sistance against global > jihad. Though life looks quite normal on the surface, we are living in a > perilous, highly volatile situation in which, precisely, normal life is a > battlefield. As these lines are written, Iran announces the launch of a > satellite that could leave southern European cities no less vulnerable than > Sderot. The news landed like a monster walking into a bustling caf?. The > excited chatter about peace talks and negotiation and friendly outreached > hands falls silent. If existential fear has finally stricken the heart of > European governments, all is not lost. > > Nidra Poller is an American who moved to France in 1972 and is a > journalist, > novelist, and translator. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/5ad993b0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 21:40:14 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 19:40:14 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] quick look at today's headlines Message-ID: <855590370903011940j16dbc4a1k7aa761a528264ae9@mail.gmail.com> A quick look at today's headline.... * Hanoch* *Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Shomron* *Top US Army Chief: Iran Can Make a Nuclear Bomb* - Israelnationalnews.com The clock has run out on stopping Iran, US Army Chief of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen said. ?Iran has enough nuclear material to make a bomb.? Well, thank you Admiral Mullins! After insisting that Iran was still years away from a nuke, oops....he made a mistake. It's a good thing he doesn't live in Israel, which has Iran's nukes and Iran's proxy armies in both the north and the south. Great, so what does Israel, the American vassel state do now?!?! Keep wagging our fingers saying 'Iran will never get the bomb,' get off the drugs and deal with reality; NOW! Hamas missile upsurge erodes Israeli deterrence, dashes ceasefire hopes *DEBKAfile* Special Report Wow....this is a real shockaroo! They fire records, we don't do anything, and we wonder why our 'deterrence' is eroding. Hmmmm...that's a tough one to figure out....Why would we be hoping for a ceasefire?!?! Turn Gaza into a giant Parking Lot! *Israeli Arab Arrested for Aiding Hizbullah Israelnationalnews.com* ** Another total shock, right? This has happened more and more, and will only get worse! A dangerous 5th column that has become a real problem. They MUST GO!!! *Quartet Middle East Envoy Tony Blair Visits Gaza *Israelnationalnews.com Nice time of the year to visit Gaza, Tony? Have you figured out a way to get your muslim pals to stop firing rockets at Israel, or what's another few dead Jews, right? What a sham.... *Former Top Aide Incriminates Olmert on Bribery Charges * Israelnationalnews.com How many indictments, threats of indictments or incrimination's can this loser have?? He's like Israel's version of John Gotti - teflon Ehud! He is going to be one wealthy ex-PM, don't you think? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/86e63ed6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 1 21:59:17 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 19:59:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" References: <855590370903010809s4e036107g7b8c280d853b7a92@mail.gmail.com> <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <855590370903011709x9ce9553r2a93f24526faeacf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <597607.90386.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Hanoch, All is well! Now studying intently under an Orthodox Rabbi (Sephardic and Nazarean [more labels for John]), preparing to do some more recording and ministering at some Ephraimite gatherings this year. Praying with and for you daily my dear friend, The Shemoneh Esrei ... (what a marvelous summary of our faith!!!!!) Trying to?build bridges of love and clear away misunderstanding where ever possible. Oh, and listening to my heart, the one?I left in Zion, telling me to come home!! Hoping to see you soon! Tracy ________________________________ From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 8:09:16 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Hey Tracy, ??? How's things?? Glad you had a chance to read the article - and yes, it was written with only one perspective in mind.? ??? And I truly hope that it all does "pan out soon" as you put it, because this world is getting worse and worse... ???? Take care achi! ??????????????? ?Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom Achi Hanoch, ? I definitely agree with this article, although it?shows only "one side of the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But?(in my mind) it definitely portrays correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem send the Mashiach today!!! ? And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is Jewish...and he wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. Believing in the resurrection of Yeshua does not make one "non-Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. However, those who believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in error and?will have to?correct their interpretations of him. ? And, if,?most of my?Jewish friends?do not believe in the resurrection of Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and that it is he who will return and fulfill all of what?the article below describes, that's their business...??It will all pan out soon!! ? Shalom u'Brachot, Tracy ________________________________ From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, journalist Griff Witte, from the Washington Post Foreign Service, wrote: Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems. (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, Washington Post, February 10, 2009) The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the Messiah. As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to serve HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and shalom. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of Maimonides to Mishnah Sanhedrin, chap. 10). The following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the book World of Our Fathers, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and shalom. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: Being a Jew means running forever to God Even if you are His betrayer, Means expecting to hear any day, Even if you are a nay sayer, The blare of Messiah?s horn. A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the following passage: A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of HaShemwill rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for HaShem. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for HaShem; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist. (Isaiah 11:1-5) In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of HaShem.? This verse clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of HaShem, but who is not HaShem. This verse serves as a reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? (Commentary on the Haftorot) The prophet then describes an era of universal shalom and spiritual enlightenment: The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of HaShemas water covering the sea bed. (Isaiah 11:1-9) With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, HaShem will bring all our people home: It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (verses 11,12) The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. (Habakkuk 2:3) Related Teachings and Information 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us did not merit this experience. The Chofetz Chaim, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known that HaShemattaches to every individual his own merit and that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone. (Machaneh Yisrael, "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity - Feldheim Publishers) 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief references and allusions to the Messiah: A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as Targum Onkelos, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, Midrash Yalkut Shimoni says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, also interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). C. ?Then HaShem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which HaShem, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there HaShem, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. HaShem, your God, will bring you to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090301/7a4a0663/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 06:23:08 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:23:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] That interesting article we're going to discuss. Message-ID: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Bro' Sorry I took so long to respond. It's turned out to be a busy weekend. I had forgotten how much work it is to sell one's house. We also began some renovations at the Synagogue this weekend. We started pulling out the awful green carpet and found a very beautiful floor underneath, it was almost like an archaeological dig ;-{)}. Anyway, I do have some other thoughts regarding the issue of emigrating to Israel that I would like to air. As you pointed out, there are many Ephraimites who are currently living out their attachment to Israel by simply evading immigration law enforcement and trusting that G-d will keep them safe. It is entirely possible in my opinion that He will. The irony here is that many (if not all) of these folks actually have a heart to help the people of Israel and in fact are. Yet they may be caught up and evicted because of both a narrow-minded Israeli government as well as an infuriatingly persistent "Christian" evangelical movement. In what I have come to believe is my own calling, it has become clear to me that that emigration to Israel is a very unique ambition fraught with very unique problems. To my knowledge, Israel is the only country (at least the only democracy) whose religion is completely intertwined with both their culture and their government. However, it is not such a far stretch to compare this situation with the Government of the United States and the separation of church and state controversy. Every approach Israel takes to these problems has drawbacks. It is obvious that neither ancestral nor religious connection to Judah is a guarantee of either loyalty or friendliness to the nation of Israel. There are those who can prove ancestral connection to Judah who are in no way thier friends and there are those who convert to Judah's religion who are in no way her friends. There are those who were born Jewish and are practicing Judiasm who are in no way her friends and there are those who believe that they are the new, spiritual Israel who are in no way her friends. I heard today that the official position of the Unitied States toward Israel is for a two state solution. No big surprise. Not her friends. The United States faces a parallel (if not so much an obvious) problem. We are a nation founded on the belief in the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Yet we are constantly under assault from those who claim loyalty to us but refuse to acknowledge that belief in G-d is valid, the so-called Aethists. I use that term loosely because I personally believe that there is no such thing as an Aetheist. But that is an argument for another time. Anyway, my point is that Israel and the US both need to figure out how to ensure that they are opening their arms to their friends and excluding their enemies at the same time. This is difficult because of the principles we both hold dear. But restriction to a pariticular set of ancestral and/or religious affiliations is not the answer, that has been proven. When one is granted citizenship in the US, they are made to take an oath of loyalty with their hand on the Bible (at least it used to be that way), it should be the same for Israel. There should be no argument over which book to swear over, it should be the book of the country to which you aspire to belong, that is the whole point of swearing. If you don't agree with the terms then you don't belong, go somewhere else that agrees with you. So for me, I am ready to swear my allegance to Isreal under her terms for my own reasons which are no-one elses business except Israel's. It is between me and my G-d who has chosen Israel. Does that mean that I am ready to abandon the US? No indeed, last I heard we could hold dual citizenship, which, BTW, has it's own complexities. Yes, I do believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. But my definition of Messiah is very different from that of traditional Christianity. I don't think Messiah has anything to do with anyone's personal salvation, he is intended to redeem the nation. Nor do I have any burning desire to convince Judah of my opinion, I think G-d is big enough to straighten that mess out when the time is right. In my opinion, those who want to "save" Judah have missed Yeshua's message completely, mostly beacuse they focus more on his birth, death and ressurection instead of what he taught. The way I see it, there has got to be a place for me at Israel's side and I believe G-d will make that happen, legally, in spite of all of the governments. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/b12f140d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:28:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:28:59 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] I SO wish this guy were wrong....but I'm not sure he is... Message-ID: <855590370903020628m734058e0kd0a61dfb9b561354@mail.gmail.com> I'm not sure that 'hate' is the correct word...perhaps 'loathe' is; But I SO wish he was wrong about American Jews....I don't think he is, though... * Hanoch* * Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* ** What the Goyim Think About The Jews %Date% by by from "The Tamar Yonah Show" - Tamar Yonah (IsraelNN.com) *Now, before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, the term 'Goyim' just means 'Nations'. It is not meant as a derogatory term here. Saying this, below is an email I received from a good and righteous non-Jew named Dean. His little experience he has had with Ameican Jews has given him an impression, that he wants to check out to see if it is true. * *My friends, here is what the 'righteous' of the Nations, the 'righteous Goyim', are saying about the Jews....* Dear Tamar: I am a christian who lives in the United States. I write to you quite often. I am not what you call Roman. I am a Christian Zionist with great love for Israel and all that it represents. I recently attended a Gert Wilders speech in Massachussetts. It was held in a Jewish synagogue. I rarely rub shoulders with U.S. Jews, but I enjoy it when I do. I got there early and began chatting with as many as I could. I told them how I spend an hour or so each day on the internet surfing in the Jerusalem Post. I was trying to compare spiritual notes with them. Many of them said they did not own a computer, but all those who did asked me what the Jerusalem Post was. I thought they were trying to be sarcastic to me because I was not wearing a Yarmulkah (is that how you spell it?) But, the more I tried to be spiritually friendly the more I found they were not interested in Israel or what was going on there. I left the meeting hall, which was quite large (400 people.) in a well to do area of Massachussetts, three miles from Boston. Feeling quite overwhelemed with perplexity, my inner feelings were thus. How in the world, with all the things that are going on, could religious synagogue goers, be ignorant of their own little besieged home? I dwelt on this all night, very disturbed. I believe God told me why the next day. Much of the time in their synagogue, I heard them make references to each other, when someone entered the building, "Oh, do you see that couple over there, that is so and so and man are they loaded." Oh, "See those people over there, that is such and such." These people were very pleasant to me and knew that I was not part of their group. I asked them if they ever heard of Geert Wilders and to my astonishment none of them had. I probably asked five or six people. I thought I was at a dog and pony show. I was quite taken aback. I thought that most of Jewry in the U.S. were up to speed on spriritual matters like you people at Arutz Sheva. Tovia and Yishai and Tamar etc. Well, I was set back aways on my spiritual haunches. I thought about this the next day and I believe God revealed to me the matter. This is what I feel the sum of the matter is. Many U.S. Jews hate Israel. That may be too strong. U.S. Jews ignore Israel and this is why. Israel is an extreme threat to them. If they thought about Israel too long, they might feel they have to help Israel. Sure, they send them a few bucks now and then, but that is to relieve their conscienceses. That way when they stand before God, they will be able to say they supported Israel. Also, I am now going to reveal why, they mostly all voted for OBAMA. This will blow you away. This makes tears run down my cheeks. I may be wrong about all of this, please tell me if I am. I live in Maine. Not many Jewish people up here. I know of none personally. All I know is what I hear on Jerusalem Post and read in the Bible. But, I am connected to Israel and the future. I am connected to the God of Israel. Okay, these are the ten reasons why U.S. Jews voted for OBAMA and why they do not like the word Israel. Many, many U.S. Jews are well off with big bucks and big estates and big connections and extremly little persecution here in the U.S. For them to admit Israel exists, would cause them to feel they have to help Israel. This might mean possibly having to take a stand in their daily speech, with others over here, thereby labeling them as ONE OF THOSE and causing persecution to come down on their heads. Most Jews are tucked away in little enclaves or FORTS they have created for safety over here and to leave the safety of the fort would again open them up for what maybe their forfathers went through. (OH MY G-D NOT THAT) You know, I almost really can't blame them. America is like a little Israel to them, when they get tucked away in their little communities over here. Okay, here comes the punch line. They feel if they spend ten minutes thinking about Israel, they may feel attracted to go on Aliya over there. Wow, the thought of all those gun battles they hear every night on the news, reminds them of the Nazis so much, what they do is place Israel so far out of their minds, the very thought of it causes them great pain. Am I anywhere near the mark??? They almost hate Israel. They almost despise Israel. The very thought of Israel causes them discomfort. Why do 35,000 Jews in Iran refuse to go to Israel? They live right next door. They know they would be too easy a target in Israel. How am I doing? This is why they voted for OBAMA. They feel he will stop helping Israel and maybe just maybe Israel will disappear and leave their thoughts. *So... please answer Dean. He wants to understand, is he right, or is he wrong?* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/d04a9928/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:44:38 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:44:38 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] What is 'Extremist'? some interesting points Message-ID: <855590370903020644g2df2722clca85c26727c49607@mail.gmail.com> What is 'Extremist'? Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 11:57 by by Yoel Meltzer (IsraelNN.com) As coalition talks heat up, the phrase "extremist coalition" is frequently heard. At times, it is Kadima stating that they will not join an "extremist coalition", while at other times it is the leadership of the Likud saying they will form a right-wing coalition, albeit not an "extremist" one. With the term being bantered about so regularly, perhaps it should be clarified what exactly this term means. For starters, according to one dictionary, "extremist" means "one who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm." Hence, right from the start, it should be clear that "extremist" is a relative term. Moreover, something is determined as extremist only in relation to its position vis-a-vis the "norm" (which, of course, is also a relative term). Thus, for example, we find that according to this definition, Zeev Jabotinsky's frantic pleas in the 1930s to European Jewry "to liquidate the exile before the exile liquidates you," would certainly be considered extremist, since the majority of European Jewry (the "norm") did not agree with Jabotinsky's prediction. Nonetheless, history proved that Jabotinsky was unfortunately correct, while the majority (the "norm") was clearly wrong. This is just one example of many to show that what occasionally is considered an extremist approach is, in retrospect, correct, while what is considered the norm is, in retrospect, mistaken. Of course, this is not a fixed law and sometimes the opposite is true. What is important, however, is to understand that these terms are purely subjective and relative. Thus, whoever designates an idea or approach as "extremist", and by default what is the norm, is doing so from his own personal, subjective point of view and world outlook. This is an important point that should be kept in mind when confronted by such terms. A much healthier approach would be if public officials would clearly state what they consider extremist in another party, and why, and in the process clarify what is their own unique point of view and world outlook. Thus, for example, if Kadima or Likud were to state why they believe that Yisrael Beiteinu's calling for citizenship based on loyalty is extremist, perhaps Yisrael Beiteinu would respond with their own reasoning of why they believe that such a position is legitimate and required. Whatever the outcome of such a dialogue would be, at the very least the public would be presented with some clear ideas of what our public officials actually believe in, rather than being fed the usual cliches. Turning to another dictionary, we find that "extremism" is "any political theory favoring uncompromising policies." Thus, for example, based on this definition Kadima could easily claim that HaIchud HaLeumi has an extremist point of view, since they are 100% opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state in any shape or size, in any part of the Land of Israel. In other words, they are totally uncompromising and therefore extremist. However, similar to the case above, if Kadima would only state this clearly, rather than talking in general terms about an "extremist coalition", perhaps some genuine public dialogue would ensue. In such a scenario, HaIchud HaLeumi might respond by saying that Kadima's determination to establish a Palestinian state in the majority of Judea and Samaria - despite the experience of missile attacks from Lebanon and Gaza during the past few years and despite the direct threat that such a state would pose against Tel Aviv and Jerusalem - is not only foolish, but it is also extremist, due to Kadima's uncompromising commitment to bring such a policy to fruition. Or perhaps they would respond by explaining in an intelligent way that from a Jewish perspective their position is actually the norm, while everything else should be viewed relative to their position. The debates could go on and on, but the point here is that rather than continuing to spend endless time delegitimizing and vilifying other parties who have different points of view, the time has come for Israeli pubic officials to start engaging in real discussions based upon actual ideas and approaches, rather than mere sound bites and cliches such as "extremist". The Israeli public deserves this from their elected officials. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/8e01f333/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Mar 2 13:24:48 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:24:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! In-Reply-To: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: I haven't been very active on the list lately; I have been reading, but just not writing, but I but wanted to jump in a minute here with a lighter note and wish a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to two of my favorite people, . who deserve the very best.my dear brother James, and my precious daughter, Kim!!! Happy Birthday you two! And may HaShem continue to shine His Light on you and within you so that you may continue to radiate that Light outward!!! My love always, Elisheva/Betty/Mom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/e6f1d2d2/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 2 14:46:43 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 06:46:43 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM!] Message-ID: <49AC45B3.2040408@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/774efc6c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:24:48 -0600 Size: 8376 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/774efc6c/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 14:59:55 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:59:55 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! In-Reply-To: References: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <855590370903021259n6bc38041k118458107056dc5c@mail.gmail.com> Happy Birthday to both of you! May this year be your best one yet! * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > I haven?t been very active on the list lately; I have been reading, but > just not writing, but I but wanted to jump in a minute here with a lighter > note and wish a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to two of my favorite people, . who deserve > the very best?my dear brother James, and my precious daughter, Kim!!! > > > > *Happy Birthday you two! And may HaShem continue to shine His Light on you > and within you so that you may continue to radiate * > > *that Light outward!!!* > > > > My love always, > > Elisheva/Betty/Mom > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/8de316eb/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 2 15:20:07 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 07:20:07 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] That interesting article we're going to discuss.] Message-ID: <49AC4D87.30107@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/dc749308/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] That interesting article we're going to discuss. Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:23:08 +0000 Size: 14728 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/dc749308/attachment.eml From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Mar 2 15:47:47 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 16:47:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! In-Reply-To: <855590370903021259n6bc38041k118458107056dc5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370903021259n6bc38041k118458107056dc5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c99b80$886bdfe0$99439fa0$@com> Happy Birthday James & Kim!! http://www.ne.jp/asahi/noiraud/ochiai/Happy_Birthday.jpg Love, Patty & Dave Tyler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/bf90d328/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 22054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/bf90d328/attachment.jpe From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 17:36:07 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:36:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! In-Reply-To: <855590370903021259n6bc38041k118458107056dc5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370903021259n6bc38041k118458107056dc5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: YES!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DEAR KIM AND JAMES!!!!! Love, Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! Happy Birthday to both of you! May this year be your best one yet! Hanoch On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Betty Givin wrote: I haven?t been very active on the list lately; I have been reading, but just not writing, but I but wanted to jump in a minute here with a lighter note and wish a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to two of my favorite people, . who deserve the very best?my dear brother James, and my precious daughter, Kim!!! Happy Birthday you two! And may HaShem continue to shine His Light on you and within you so that you may continue to radiate that Light outward!!! My love always, Elisheva/Betty/Mom _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/76f6e6b0/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 18:43:45 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:43:45 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY JAMES & KIM! In-Reply-To: References: <030220091223.21515.49ABCFAC0005732B0000540B22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <030320090043.4730.49AC7D40000D288B0000127A22228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey James and Kim, Happy birthday! May we share many more with in the years to come. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- I haven?t been very active on the list lately; I have been reading, but just not writing, but I but wanted to jump in a minute here with a lighter note and wish a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to two of my favorite people, . who deserve the very best?my dear brother James, and my precious daughter, Kim!!! Happy Birthday you two! And may HaShem continue to shine His Light on you and within you so that you may continue to radiate that Light outward!!! My love always, Elisheva/Betty/Mom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/4041c9ab/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 19:03:07 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 01:03:07 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] That interesting article we're goingto discuss.] In-Reply-To: <49AC4D87.30107@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <030320090103.22969.49AC81CB00021781000059B922228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, I love ya man. Unconditional Love and Unity with Yehudah is what I'm talking about. But somewhere along the line it has to materialize in the here and now, with our personal actions and decisions. We can't lay this all on Messiah. And believe me I'm not laying the blame at the feet of Judah either, there are good reasons why Judah doesn't trust Joseph. My point is, it is up to us (Jew and Gentile) to strive to heal the wounds of the past. Unfortunately, that means dealing with the all too mortal issues of politics, demographics, citizenship, theology and messiahship. Israel will never learn to trust those who truly desire to stand with her if she doesn't try to recognize us. And we will never learn how to stand with Judah if we don't stop insisting that we have a better solution to their salvation than G-d Himself planned for. We have to learn to understand each other. But I believe will will never learn to do that if we expect G-d or Messiah to do it for us. Israel said at Mount Sinai, "We will do and understand", none of us are very good at the doing part I don't think. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom John, there is a very strong message in this article. " they will not listen to me..... the rabbi, but they will to you..... the friends." The key to this discussion I believe is not politics, demographics, citizenship, theology nor even Messiahship. It boils down to our Ahavat and Achdut - Unconditional Love and Unity with Yehudah. Only this can break down the millennia of distrust and enmity. This is the role of Mashiach. When we reach out and do , the stage is set for the Redemption to unfold. by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths There are many opinions as to what life will be like when the Mashiach finally comes. Although they argue on most points, they all agree that one big change will be the way the Nations of the world will view the Jewish People. After the Redemption, they will appreciate the Jews and will look toward Jerusalem for guidance. There is a well known teaching about the time of the Mashiach. It says that the non-Jews will realize that the more the Jews learn Torah, the better it will be for the entire world, including them. They will want this reward so much that they will station guards outside the study halls with sticks in their hands. If a Jew comes out before the day is over, they will threaten him with blows unless he returns and finishes his day of study. Can you imagine a non-Jew being so dedicated to the Jews? spiritual development? Yesterday at the Kotel, there were three young men standing together apparently discussing the history of the place. It turned out that they were volunteers for one of the many projects that are set up around the country to attract Jews from all over the world. But of these three, only one was a Jew. He was a medical student in America, and the other two were from Holland. I asked the Jewish man to put on tefillin. He refused with a definite ?No!? Many times, a Jew who is with his non-Jewish friends will not want to put on tefillin because he does not want to break up the group, or does not want to embarrass the non-Jew by telling him that he cannot do it. So they most often side with the gentile and not with me. There can be any number of reasons that a Jew invents to refuse to put on tefillin, and this guy seemed to have them all. I saw that I could not get anywhere with him, so I said to the two guys from Holland, ?Look you cannot put on tefillin because you are not Jewish, but if you get him to put on tefillin you will get credit in Heaven. He won?t listen to me, but he will listen to you because you?re his friends.? They picked up on it right away. ?Yeah,? They said smiling broadly. ?Go for it. It will be good.? He gave in immediately, and with a gentle hug I slid him over to the tefillin stand. I explained to them what the mitzvah of tefillin is, and gave him the English prayers to read. Then I explained to the two non-Jews that G-d loves all People, and that now He loves them even more since they helped a Jew to put on tefillin. Signs of the times. Redemption is getting closer and closer. Shalom v'Ahavah to you and Carin. JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/a5064977/attachment.html From goodears at jps.net Mon Mar 2 19:29:26 2009 From: goodears at jps.net (Ron Runyon) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 17:29:26 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss In-Reply-To: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shalom Hanoch, I am very interested in this thread and the articles you are posting. Thank you. Your comments in this article leave me with a question. When some group of Jews proclaim Rabbi Schneerson as the Messiah do all the rest of the Jews lump these in to a group that can not be trusted and should be removed, like the Christian Missionaries? Help me understand your objection or the Jews objection to the songs of Ephramites. Have you ever heard these type of songs at other Ephimite gatherings, like the one you and I were at in a school in Yerushalaim? It seems to me that the expectation is that Ephraim should come in with out their beliefs and practices. Is that what you are propossing? May be I am missing something. Ron _____ From: Hanoch Young [mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:24 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss Shalom John, Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my comments in RED.... Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long time...LOL Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) The Outreach Judaism organization has announced that it is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who target Jews for conversion. It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, whatsoever, to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As John Hulley once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children candy, they just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them.... Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. The series entitled Judaism's Response to Christian Missionaries will be the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaism founder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from the United States. In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually to "bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people." Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though they are speaking about Jesus. "Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our community to their extremist brand of Christianity," said Singer, who also hosts his own talk show on Israel National Radio . "In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a straightforward Christian message," he added. This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY! Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56 by by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going to be very disappointed.... The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is employed and that "only the ones that are here illegally were picked up." There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from Egypt in the past year had been hired "off the books" by the hotels at the Dead Sea, said the source. "They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents," she said. "They can't seem to tell the difference." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090302/0b4e5119/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 19:41:13 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 01:41:13 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <247680.51907.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <639138.10929.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <247680.51907.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <030320090141.25617.49AC8AB8000406490000641122228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I agree with you completely regarding the the surprises in store for both Jew and Gentile Susie. I also agree with you about the two Messiah concept. But I have to bring up a point that has been bothering me for quite some time. I have spent a good part of my life in Christian circles in one form or another and I have come to the conclusion that one of the most insideous doctrines ever developed is the idea that everyhing will get better when Messiah returns or, to put it another way, nothing is going to get better until he does. Most of the Christian friends I have that are studied in their beliefs (a lot of Christians, in fact, I would say a majority, really have no idea why they believe what they do. I was one of them) have simply given up trying to deal with the present reality. They are now living thier lives wating for Messiah to return...for the rapture. They no longer watch the news, they have no clue what is happening in Israel and they see no reason to. Don't misunderstand, I am convinced as are most who study G-d's Word are that there will never be true peace until Messiah returns. But this does not mean the absence of war and hate, it means the ascendance of the Kingdom as G-d intended it to be in the first place. It means G-d's goodness will once again permeate His creation. My understanding of scripture is that WE (those who believe on the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) are supposed to usher in this era by walking in the way of our belief. Every man and woman has a choice to make ( it is the one Moses spoke of in Deuteronomy 30), I think when G-d is satisfied that every man and woman in His creation has made that choice, Messiah will return and not before. No-one knows when that will be. So it is up to us to live out our choice with as much devotion as we can muster in the meantime. I don't think moving to Israel is the right decision for everyone. But I do think that supporting her as actively we can, is. No matter what our calling. I fear that Judah and/or Ephraim may be taking too much for granted if all we do is wait for Messiah to return. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Shalom All, My mind has been almost consumed with this very thought lately and not just Zion needing the Messiah but the whole world. In all the topics we have discussed lately especially regarding the law of return , ephramites, keeping Torah for non jews etc. I think of how it is going to take HaShem's kingdom here on Earth to get it all straightened out! One topic that I haven't seen discussed is that of Messiah Ben Joseph. James Tabor in his book RAF lightly touches on the fact that Yeshua did not fulfill the Davidic role of Messiah and that most Christians feel he did and is fulfilling that role in the spiritual realm. This is one of the major reasons(along with Yeshua being G-d and Torah being abrogated) Jewish faith has rejected Yeshua as Messiah. However, there is Rabbinic midrash about the fact that Scriptures show two different demeanors of Messiah. One of a humble servant riding on a lowly donkey and one as conquering King. Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David. James makes the point in his book that the Jewish brethen would have no problem if Yeshua of Nazareth would come back as Messiah Ben David they just feel that possiblity to be highly unlikely. It is possible that Yeshua will be the one to fulfill both roles. Joseph was made viceroy to Pharoh. He was given all authority, power and honor by Pharoh but he was not Pharoh. Jacob and Joseph's 11 brothers all bowed down to Joseph. Not as their G-d but as the one chosen by G-d. This was to fulfill Joseph's dream but is that it? Was the meaning of this deeper? There has now come a time after 2000 years of bad theology, miscommunication, mistrust, criminal acts and on and on to have meaningful dialogue about these thoughts. Are the scars too deep? Probably. We need Messiah. Some have a longing to live in Israel so deep in their souls they will move there no matter the conditions while others can see that because of the above they will have to wait till Messiah brings them there. We need Messiah. I believe when Messiah comes or returns to Earth both Jew and Gentile will have some surprises but then both sides will be really ready to listen to one another. One thing I think both sides can agree on is that We need Messiah! Susie --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:38 AM Shalom Achi Hanoch, I definitely agree with this article, although it shows only "one side of the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But (in my mind) it definitely portrays correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem send the Mashiach today!!! And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is Jewish...and he wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. Believing in the resurrection of Yeshua does not make one "non-Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. However, those who believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in error and will have to correct their interpretations of him. And, if, most of my Jewish friends do not believe in the resurrection of Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and that it is he who will return and fulfill all of what the article below describes, that's their business... It will all pan out soon!! Shalom u'Brachot, Tracy From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, journalist Griff Witte, from the Washington Post Foreign Service, wrote: Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the country?s complex problems. (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety and Fatigue Rule?, Washington Post, February 10, 2009) The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose various political and military solutions have failed to bring us redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the Messiah. As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and all the nations to serve HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity and shalom. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far-fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith (commentary of Maimonides to Mishnah Sanhedrin, chap. 10). The following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of Maimonides: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.? The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For example, the book World of Our Fathers, by Irving Howe, describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of universal justice, unity and shalom. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief: Being a Jew means running forever to God Even if you are His betrayer, Means expecting to hear any day, Even if you are a nay sayer, The blare of Messiah?s horn. A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens with the following passage: A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for HaShem. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for HaShem; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist. (Isaiah 11:1-5) In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of HaShem.? This verse clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who is in awe of HaShem, but who is not HaShem. This verse serves as a reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great Jewish human being. It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen anew.? (Commentary on the Haftorot) The prophet then describes an era of universal shalom and spiritual enlightenment: The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of HaShem as water covering the sea bed. (Isaiah 11:1-9) With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, HaShem will bring all our people home: It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (verses 11,12) The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. (Habakkuk 2:3) Related Teachings and Information 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more righteous than us did not merit this experience. The Chofetz Chaim, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds to this concern: It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is known that HaShem attaches to every individual his own merit and that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone. (Machaneh Yisrael, "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in The Chofetz Chaim Looks at Eternity - Feldheim Publishers) 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief references and allusions to the Messiah: A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as Targum Onkelos, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, Midrash Yalkut Shimoni says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, also interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). C. ?Then HaShem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which HaShem, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there HaShem, your God, will gather you in and from there He will take you. HaShem, your God, will bring you to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/4f2add80/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 20:10:48 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:10:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week Message-ID: <647158.85731.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Israel Apartheid Week By Ted Belman The anti-Israel rhetoric on campuses has gone on long enough! The dialogue among students and the academic community has gotten out of hand with the hateful apartheid characterization of the state of Israel. It is Israel Apartheid Week on Canadian university campuses. We need 10,000 more signatures on this petition within the next 48 hours to stop this event. PETITION It is URGENT that we get our message out and that we show Canadian universities and colleges that hateful rhetoric and gross intimidation is unacceptable. Please sign the petition right away and encourage your family and friends to do so. It doesnt matter whether you live in Canada or not. I suggest that a similar PETITION be set up for the US. We must do this for our kids. If you know of a student who was threatened or assaulted on any campus in North America, please have them get in touch with me, Ted Belman. Email - tedbel at rogers.com "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 20:20:46 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 02:20:46 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week In-Reply-To: <647158.85731.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <030320090220.27687.49AC93FE000150A600006C2722228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Cody, I tried to sign this but it sent me to facebook and crashed. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from cody oneill : -------------- > > Israel Apartheid Week > > By Ted Belman > > The anti-Israel rhetoric on campuses has gone on long enough! The > dialogue among students and the academic community has gotten out of > hand with the hateful apartheid characterization of the state of > Israel. It is Israel Apartheid Week on Canadian university > campuses. We need 10,000 more signatures on this petition within the > next 48 hours to stop this event. > > PETITION > > It is URGENT that we get our message out and that we show Canadian > universities and colleges that hateful rhetoric and gross > intimidation is unacceptable. > > Please sign the petition right away and encourage your family and > friends to do so. It doesnt matter whether you live in Canada or > not. > > I suggest that a similar PETITION be set up for the US. > > We must do this for our kids. > > If you know of a student who was threatened or assaulted on any > campus in North America, please have them get in touch with me, Ted > Belman. Email - tedbel at rogers.com > > > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no > special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that > sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/fb3a050e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 03:48:54 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 01:48:54 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss In-Reply-To: References: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370903030148j4ada298ctef6b0fa73da41a24@mail.gmail.com> Hey Ron, Glad that you've found the articles of interest. You asked a number of questions that will help make it even MORE interesting, at least in my opinion. And I'd love to clarify for you everything I wrote. However, it's 4:39AM though, and I'm waiting for a car service to take me to the airport. Actually, I'll be in Montana until Thursday, having been invited by a group of leaders of Ephramite groups to join them in their discussions regarding Israel. Although I cannot promise to write a detailed reply until after Shabbat, G-d willing I will get it done before the weekend is over. Got snowed in yesterday, hope I can actually leave this morning... Take care, *Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Ron Runyon wrote: > Shalom Hanoch, > > > > I am very interested in this thread and the articles you are posting. > Thank you. > > > > Your comments in this article leave me with a question. When some group of > Jews proclaim Rabbi Schneerson as the Messiah do all the rest of the Jews > lump these in to a group that can not be trusted and should be removed, like > the Christian Missionaries? > > > > Help me understand your objection or the Jews objection to the songs of > Ephramites. > > > > Have you ever heard these type of songs at other Ephimite gatherings, like > the one you and I were at in a school in Yerushalaim? > > > > It seems to me that the expectation is that Ephraim should come in with > out their beliefs and practices. Is that what you are propossing? > > > > May be I am missing something. > > > > Ron > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Hanoch Young [mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:24 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss > > > > Shalom John, > > > > Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from > today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that > you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & > citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my > comments in *RED*.... > > > > Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we > wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long > time...LOL > > > > * Hanoch* > > *Israel**'s 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* > *Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression * > > Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15 > > by by IsraelNN Staff > > (IsraelNN.com) The *Outreach Judaism* organization has announced that it > is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond > directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in > an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who > target Jews for conversion. > > * It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, whatsoever, > to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As John Hulley > once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children candy, they > just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them....* > > Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering > the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews > for conversion. > > The series entitled *Judaism?s Response to Christian Missionaries* will be > the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaismfounder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from > the United States. > > In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish > evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who > try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark > history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used > by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually > to ?bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people.? > > Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the > Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though > they are speaking about Jesus. > > ?Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have > launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our > community to their extremist brand of Christianity,? said Singer, who also > hosts his own talk show on *Israel National Radio > *. > > ?In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, > these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches > worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and > Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a > straightforward Christian message,? he added. > > *This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are > willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be > 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! > Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - > if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on > the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" > CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY!* > > *Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels* > > Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56 > > by by Hana Levi Julian > > (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese > workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the > Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. > > Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 > a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not > authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee > transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which > serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. > > *Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers > who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed > illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious > about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not > allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going > to be very disappointed....* > > The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is > employed and that ?only the ones that are here illegally were picked up.? > There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. > > Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from > Egypt in the past year had been hired ?off the books? by the hotels at the > Dead Sea, said the source. > > ?They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents,? she said. > ?They can?t seem to tell the difference.? > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/61614c17/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 07:09:45 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:09:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <247680.51907.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <247680.51907.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for this Susie. The late David Horowitz, z'tl (who died in 2002 at age 99), founder of United Israel, whom I always found to be a person of great wisdom, used to say, "When the Messiah comes both Jews and Christians will be completely surprised and have to revise many of their ideas and assumptions." He is also the one who first pointed me to the emphasis on the "coming" of YHVH, rather than the messiahs, of whatever description, as the the major emphasized hope in the Prophets--but you know this view from RAF. Best, James Horowitz's remarkable life is remembered here: http://unitedisrael.org/United-Israel-Organization-Information/Founder-David-Horowitz.html On Mar 1, 2009, at 8:12 PM, susie getskow wrote: > Shalom All, > > My mind has been almost consumed with this very thought lately and > not just Zion needing the Messiah but the whole world. In all the > topics we have discussed lately especially regarding the law of > return , ephramites, keeping Torah for non jews etc. I think of how > it is going to take HaShem's kingdom here on Earth to get it all > straightened out! > One topic that I haven't seen discussed is that of Messiah Ben > Joseph. James Tabor in his book RAF lightly touches on the fact that > Yeshua did not fulfill the Davidic role of Messiah and that most > Christians feel he did and is fulfilling that role in the spiritual > realm. This is one of the major reasons(along with Yeshua being G-d > and Torah being abrogated) Jewish faith has rejected Yeshua as > Messiah. However, there is Rabbinic midrash about the fact that > Scriptures show two different demeanors of Messiah. One of a humble > servant riding on a lowly donkey and one as conquering King. Messiah > Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David. James makes the point in his book > that the Jewish brethen would have no problem if Yeshua of Nazareth > would come back as Messiah Ben David they just feel that possiblity > to be highly unlikely. It is possible that Yeshua will be the one to > fulfill both roles. > > Joseph was made viceroy to Pharoh. He was given all authority, power > and honor by Pharoh but he was not Pharoh. Jacob and Joseph's 11 > brothers all bowed down to Joseph. Not as their G-d but as the one > chosen by G-d. This was to fulfill Joseph's dream but is that it? > Was the meaning of this deeper? > > There has now come a time after 2000 years of bad theology, > miscommunication, mistrust, criminal acts and on and on to have > meaningful dialogue about these thoughts. Are the scars too deep? > Probably. We need Messiah. > Some have a longing to live in Israel so deep in their souls they > will move there no matter the conditions while others can see that > because of the above they will have to wait till Messiah brings them > there. We need Messiah. > > I believe when Messiah comes or returns to Earth both Jew and > Gentile will have some surprises but then both sides will be really > ready to listen to one another. One thing I think both sides can > agree on is that We need Messiah! > > Susie > > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: > From: Tracy Osborne > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:38 AM > > Shalom Achi Hanoch, > > I definitely agree with this article, although it shows only "one > side of the coin" of the work of Mashiach. But (in my mind) it > definitely portrays correctly that side of the coin...May HaShem > send the Mashiach today!!! > > And, yes, I do believe it is Yeshua ben David...and he is > Jewish...and he wants Jews to remain Jews and keep the Torah. > Believing in the resurrection of Yeshua does not make one "non- > Jewish" nor is it forbidden to believe so. However, those who > believe in a 3nitarian/anti-torah version of him, are in error and > will have to correct their interpretations of him. > > And, if, most of my Jewish friends do not believe in the > resurrection of Rabbi Yeshua ben David, his ascension to Heaven, and > that it is he who will return and fulfill all of what the article > below describes, that's their business... It will all pan out soon!! > > Shalom u'Brachot, > Tracy > > > From: Hanoch Young > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:09:42 AM > Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" > > Zion Needs the Messiah Arutz-7 > > Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 01:37by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen > (IsraelNN.com) Regarding the recent election in the State of Israel, > journalist Griff Witte, from the Washington Post Foreign Service, > wrote: > Yet as Israelis go to the polls Tuesday to choose a new government, > the national mood is anything but confident. Instead, there is > widespread anxiety over the threat Israel sees in Iran?s developing > nuclear program. There is exhaustion with the Palestinian conflict, > which has no end in sight. And there is grim resignation that none > of the candidates on the ballot appears to have the answers to the > country?s complex problems. (From ?Israelis Head To Polls, Anxiety > and Fatigue Rule?, Washington Post, February 10, 2009) > The mood has not really changed since the elections. There is > disillusionment with the current political leaders of Zion, whose > various political and military solutions have failed to bring us > redemption. This disillusionment should increase our yearning for > the spiritual leadership and vision of the Messiah, of whom it is > written, ?A redeemer shall come to Zion and to those of Jacob who > turn back from defection.? (Isaiah 59:20) As a classical > commentator, Ibn Ezra, explains, this verse is referring to the > Messiah. > As we shall discuss, our sacred scriptures reveal that the Messiah > will be a great sovereign and teacher who will inspire Israel and > all the nations to serve HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving > One, and thereby inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity > and shalom. > Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could > become the Messiah and cause a radical change in the world. The late > Rabbi Aryeh Carmell was a noted Torah educator who had an inspiring > influence on my life, and he addressed this issue in the following > passage in an essay titled, ?Judaism and the Environment?: > In modern times, many of the most far-reaching revolutions in > thought have been sparked off by Jews: Einstein, Freud, Marx; though > all these were far from the Torah tradition. Would it be so far- > fetched to think of the coming revolution of the spirit as led by a > dynamic personality, steeped, this time, in the spiritual truths of > the Torah ? with a releasing vision much profounder than Freud?s, > with revolutionary ideals much more radical than Marx?s, and with > the means at his disposal to swing the world from the dark nightmare > of a polluted planet to a brighter future of spiritual creativity? > According to a teaching of Maimonides, the belief in the coming of > the Messiah is one of the thirteen principles of our faith > (commentary of Maimonides to Mishnah Sanhedrin, chap. 10). The > following statement is the well-known summary of this teaching of > Maimonides: > ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and > even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that > he will come.? > The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within > the consciousness of the Jewish people. Even those of our people who > view themselves as ?secular? have been affected by this belief. For > example, the book World of Our Fathers, by Irving Howe, describes > the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish > socialists and progressive activists who strayed from the path of > Torah. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope and > striving for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief > that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of > universal justice, unity and shalom. In one chapter (page 454), Howe > quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers > to this belief: > Being a Jew means running forever to God > Even if you are His betrayer, > Means expecting to hear any day, > Even if you are a nay sayer, > The blare of Messiah?s horn. > A description of the messianic age of redemption and the role of the > Messiah is found in Chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, and it opens > with the following passage: > A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse, and a shoot will sprout > from his roots. The spirit of HaShem will rest upon him - a spirit > of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a > spirit of knowledge and reverence for HaShem. He will be imbued with > a spirit of reverence forHaShem; and he will not need to judge by > what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge > the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the > humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his > mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one. > Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be > the girdle round his waist. (Isaiah 11:1-5) > In the above passage, it states: ?The spirit of HaShem will rest > upon him - a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel > and strength, a spirit of knowledge and awe of HaShem.? This verse > clearly indicates that the Messiah is an enlightened human being who > is in awe of HaShem, but who is not HaShem. This verse serves as a > reminder that we are not to deify any human being, including a great > Jewish human being. > It also states: ?He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, > and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked one.? > According to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, this verse reveals that > the power of the Messiah will come from ?the rod of his mouth? - the > strength of his teachings. Through these teachings, explains Rabbi > Hirsch, the conscience and power of goodness within the wicked one > will be awakened; thus, ?the wicked one has certainly been killed, > but in his place, a fresh pure human being has arisen > anew.? (Commentary on the Haftorot) > The prophet then describes an era of universal shalom and spiritual > enlightenment: > The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down > with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a > young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their > young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. > A suckling will play by a viper?s hole; and a newly weaned child > will stretch his hand towards an adder?s lair. They will neither > injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will > be filled with knowledge of HaShem as water covering the sea bed. > (Isaiah 11:1-9) > With the arrival of the Messiah, adds the Prophet Isaiah, HaShem > will bring all our people home: > It shall be on that day that the Master of All will once again show > His hand, to acquire the remnant of His people... He will raise a > banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He > will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of > the earth. (verses 11,12) > The above prophecies reveal what the Messiah will accomplish after > he arrives. We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true > Messiah, when all of these prophecies will be fulfilled. Even though > he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for > the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, > the prophet Habakkuk proclaims: > For there is yet another hazon ("vision") for the appointed time; it > will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, > await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. (Habakkuk 2:3) > Related Teachings and Information > 1. There are those who wonder how our generation can experience the > coming of the Messiah when previous generations that were more > righteous than us did not merit this experience. The Chofetz Chaim, > a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, responds > to this concern: > It is true that we are much smaller than our ancestors, but it is > known that HaShem attaches to every individual his own merit and > that of his ancestors. We are like a dwarf riding on a giant?s back, > who sees farther than the giant.. So too, our merit joined to that > of our ancestors is greater than theirs alone. (Machaneh Yisrael, > "Last Section", Chapter 20 - cited in The Chofetz Chaim Looks at > Eternity - Feldheim Publishers) > 2. Within the Books of the Prophets, there are vivid descriptions of > the messianic age and the role of the Messiah. One well-known > example is Isaiah?s vision of ?the end of days?, when the Messiah > ?will settle the disputes of many peoples? and ?they shall beat > their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; > nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they will no > longer study warfare.? (Isaiah 2:4) > 3. Within the Five Books of the Torah, we find the following brief > references and allusions to the Messiah: > A. Our father, Jacob, blessed his 12 sons - the founders of the 12 > tribes - before he died, and in his blessing to Judah, he mentions > the future arrival of Shiloh. Jacob adds that ?his will be an > assemblage of peoples.? (Genesis 49:10) > The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, known as Targum > Onkelos, refers to Shiloh as the Messiah; moreover, Midrash Yalkut > Shimoni says that this is referring to the ?King Messiah.? This is > also the interpretation cited by the classical commentator Rashi. As > Rashi explains, the peoples will gather around the Messiah, and > Rashi refers us to the following related Divine promise regarding > the Messiah: ?It shall be on that day that the descendant of Jesse > who stands as a banner for the peoples, nations will seek him, and > his restful tranquility will be glorious.? (Isaiah 11:10) > B. ?I shall see him, but not now, I shall look at him, but not in > the near future. A star has issued from Jacob and a scepter-bearer > has arisen from Israel.? (Numbers 24:17) According to a classical > Biblical commentator, Ramban (Nachmanides), this verse is a prophecy > concerning the Messiah. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, also > interprets this verse in a similar manner ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). > C. ?Then HaShem, your God, will bring back your captivity and have > compassion on you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to > whichHaShem, your God, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be > at the ends of heaven, from there HaShem, your God, will gather you > in and from there He will take you. HaShem, your God, will bring you > to the Land that your ancestors possessed and you shall possess it; > He will do good to you and make you more numerous than your > ancestors.? (Deuteronomy 30: 3-5) > According to Maimonides, the above verses are referring to the > redemption which will follow the arrival of the Messiah; thus, > Maimonides states regarding the Messiah: Anyone who does not believe > in him or does not wait for his coming, denies not only the validity > of the other Prophets, but also the validity of the Torah and Moses, > our teacher ("The Laws of Kings" 11:1). > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/121d36b8/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Tue Mar 3 08:21:31 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 06:21:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week Message-ID: <274971.8181.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi John, When I went to the site, it first asked for my email address, then asked if I'd like to add it to facebook. I did not go to the second step since I rarely get on facebook anymore. So I think if you were able to enter your email address, that is all that was needed. Thanks! -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 12:41:30 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:41:30 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week In-Reply-To: <274971.8181.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <030320091841.27319.49AD79D80000A3F900006AB722243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Okay, thanks Cody. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from cody oneill : -------------- > Hi John, > When I went to the site, it first asked for my email address, then asked if I'd > like to add it to facebook. > I did not go to the second step since I rarely get on facebook anymore. So I > think if you were able to enter your email address, that is all that was needed. > > Thanks! > > -Cody > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that > sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/4270d762/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Mar 3 14:28:44 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:28:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week In-Reply-To: <274971.8181.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <274971.8181.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <143C16E053BB4C6EA0053AB8C6F5CDF0@bettylaptop> Thanks, Cody for sending this out. I don't do much on facebook either, so I only went to the first step...hope it worked! BTW, congratulations on your debut interview!!! Good job! Take care, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of cody oneill Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Apartheid Week Hi John, When I went to the site, it first asked for my email address, then asked if I'd like to add it to facebook. I did not go to the second step since I rarely get on facebook anymore. So I think if you were able to enter your email address, that is all that was needed. Thanks! -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- _______________________________________________ From MiriamL613 at aol.com Tue Mar 3 16:35:39 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 17:35:39 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are. HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that." Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/0092056b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 17:48:55 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:48:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75460363-FAEE-4D59-BABE-422CDC4F6BDB@earthlink.net> I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: > Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not > really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need > him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole > Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? > He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of > the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws > are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do > already know what they are. > > HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human > King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the > Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're > supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah > - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when > you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to > read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we > knew that." > > Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians > and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you > knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I > was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I > said?" > > Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward > is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by > pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/51ce8289/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 18:11:59 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:11:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <75460363-FAEE-4D59-BABE-422CDC4F6BDB@earthlink.net> References: <75460363-FAEE-4D59-BABE-422CDC4F6BDB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26CF3CBC-2E52-45FE-91FF-601D4D89C6A9@earthlink.net> Sorry, I mean "words," but I am sure your works are good too! James On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:48 PM, James Tabor wrote: > I find some real wisdom in your *works* here Miriam. > > The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a > human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, > Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the > central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, > the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, > to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would > you want such if you have YHVH? > > The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate > personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both > individually and corporately: > > To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who > trembles at my word... > And I will be their God and they will be my people... > > If not now, when? > > James > > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: > >> Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not >> really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need >> him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole >> Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us >> that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral >> laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say >> these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, >> but we do already know what they are. >> >> HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human >> King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the >> Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know >> we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King >> Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of >> sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a >> King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh >> yeah, we knew that." >> >> Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the >> Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my >> words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you >> wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical >> presence to do what I said?" >> >> Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward >> is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by >> pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. >> >> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a >> recession. >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/590e1216/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 18:42:14 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 16:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <75460363-FAEE-4D59-BABE-422CDC4F6BDB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <302662.61330.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on?YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King,?Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! ? Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah.? Not really.? We know exactly what he is going to do.? So why do we need him to do it?? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah.? Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that?? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so?"natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are.? ? HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King.? So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah?? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do.? Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown.? And that's kind of sad when you think about it.? We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it.? And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that."? ? Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews.? Why did you wonder what I was going to do?? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" ? Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes.? After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/de14ef53/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Tue Mar 3 18:53:58 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:53:58 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Thanks, Jim. My note about not really needing the Messiah was kind of a tongue-in-cheek oversimplification. He's gotta come for things to really take off. Knowing the role of the Messiah is at least the first step in smoothing the way for him. It would be great to start a discussion on what the Messiah would have to do first and what problems he will run into. What great things Rabbi Kahane would have done had he been blessed to have a chance because I think it needs to start in Israel, i.e., the Torah will go forth from Zion. To cut the human race a break, we haven't all had the scriptures at our fingertips and in our native tongues for so very many years. I don't think my grandparents could read much, and I don't think they even had a bible. Look what we have today, with the internet and almost everything ever written by anyone on a particular subject available at the push of a few buttons. On the other hand, there's so much information that maybe the challenge of sorting through it all is overwhelming. Personally, I see education as the most important thing that can be done by people who really want G-d's will to be done on earth. I'd like the Muslims to come to understand that our Torah is real and unchanged, and that is confirmed by the Quran as well as by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Only then will Muslims stop striving against the Jews to wipe out Judaism and take over Israel. (Sheikh Palazzi offers such a shining example of the wonderful world of brotherhood possible between the three faiths of the children of Abraham.) I'd like the Christians to understand the same thing, and that the Torah was not canceled by Jesus. I'd like all Jews, Christians and Muslims to have a grasp of what king messiah's job role will be. I'd like the Jews in Israel to know that peace cannot be found by political means, and that the Torah's promises for peace based on Torah observance are reliable. It's nice to meet people who share the goal of brotherhood. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090303/9ebd4c9d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 20:41:34 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:41:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "..but the house of the righteous shall stand." In-Reply-To: <855590370903010143qd92a3bfs873af7b6d1b2a1db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030420090241.3208.49ADEA5D0006464B00000C8822230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- ToraLife 7 by HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. Evil individuals will be overthrown, and will cease [to exist]; but the house of the righteous shall stand. Proverbs 12:7 Evil individuals have two enemies, one that is small and one that is great. The small enemy is the multitude of peoples whom evil individuals oppress. The great enemy is the very evil itself that resides within the heart of the evil individual. Those whom evil individuals oppress do not always have the necessary strength to pose a threat to their oppressors. The weak and the downtrodden may or may not be able to defend themselves against evil souls, therefore they are most often no threat at all. This is why they are called the small enemy, for although they pose a constant threat to the evil individual in their thirst for justice and revenge, still more often than not, they lack the power and therefore can cause no real serious harm. However, although the weak and oppressed can be silenced and their danger neutralized, there still remains the greater enemy, the one who cannot be silenced, or intimated. The great enemy cannot be oppressed, for it is the oppressor. The great enemy cannot be conquered for it is the conqueror. The evil heart inside the evil individual has a life of its own and more often than not turns on its own self, just as easily as it turns on the weak and oppressed. Ultimately in the end the evil individual becomes as much a victim of his own evil as are those whom he oppresses. This is unavoidable and inevitable. Evil is its own downfall. For them we have no pity and for them we shed no tears. Evil deserves its fate. After all the harm evil does to others, evil eventually turns back on itself and destroys its host. Although we may not be the instruments for the destruction of evil, we can hurry it along. Although we may not be strong enough to confront, attack and defeat evil, we can still gain a minor victory in that we are able to resist. It is in our resistance that lays our true strength and it is in our resistance that plants the seeds for evil's inward turn and destruction of itself. The secret of defeating evil is righteousness. Righteousness simply means living by doing what is right, always. It is often hard to distinguish between right and wrong in all circumstances. Therefore, the righteous rely upon what they know in their hearts more so than what they know in their heads. Knowing in the heart is not an emotional state. Knowing in the heart begins when feelings and emotions end. In order to truly know what the heart knows one must silence the noise of conflicting emotions and still the raging fire of one's feelings. When the heart is silent, then it can hear the voice of the inner mind. The inner voice is not heard by either the ear or the mind, but the heart knows its language well. It tells the heart what the right thing is to do, when and how to do it. This is the voice of conscience. It is the heart of righteousness. No one can be righteous without a conscience. No one can hear the voice of conscience over the roar of a conflicted heart. One's house is one's home; yet it is more than a building or a physical place. The house of the righteous is his inner place; the place where his heart and mind merge as one, showing him the proper path that defines righteousness. This house shall stand forever, it shall never fail or fall. Although the power of evil can be most formidable and most foreboding, still, the righteous stand firm against it. Although the evil one may kill the body of the righteous soul, still the resolve and heart of the righteous will stand firm and live forever. Thus his house remains forever intact. The echo of righteousness lives on forever. It is more powerful than any force evil individuals can ever generate. The echo of righteousness seeps into the inner mind of the evil individual and does war with his evil heart. It is this inner war that is the fall and demise of evil. When evil turns to fight the inner war within the evil individual, the evil becomes consumed; it self-destructs and eventually ceases to exist. The echo of righteousness however will live on and on. It will pass from one righteous soul to the next, from one generation to the next. In the end, only righteousness will remain. This is a long road and we still have a way to travel upon it. Yet, the end is near, and the outcome is assured. ------------------------------------------- Shalom, HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090304/167200dd/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 20:53:57 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:53:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] These are the kind fo views NOT welcome in Israel... In-Reply-To: <855590370902282024nf78aa3cj707bdaf5f7bb1431@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030420090253.29221.49ADED45000A16A00000722522230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Incredible! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- This just makes me count the days until I arrive...there's a LOT to do... Hanoch Uncomfortable Beliefs by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths Judaism has some core beliefs. (I guess this is true of every major religion.) You can't avoid them and you can't ignore them, they're a part of what makes Judaism Judaism. Example: G-d is one. Judaism does not allow for multiple divine powers or competing gods, nor G-d divided into some sort of multiple limited entities. G-d is one. Similarly, just as the Jewish people are designated a holy nation, the land of Israel is designated a holy land, and a permanent relationship between the two was created. (Hence all Jews pray facing Jerusalem, and pray for rain during the Israeli rainy season.) Sometimes some of these beliefs make people uncomfortable. That's ok, often ways of Judaism have found ways to mess with modernity or 'progress'. Other times, a choice is faced, Judaism or not. Around the world this can be tricky , but within Israel it is sometimes striking when someone - literally while standing on the ruins of Judaism past - would deny the very ground they are standing upon... (Speaking about a newly elected member of the Israeli Knesset, Haaretz Newspaper says...) Ben-Ari, with his racist, Kahanist and pro-transfer ideology, will stain any government and damage Israel's reputation around the world. The message that will be conveyed by including the National Union is that transfer has received a seal of approval in Israel. Kahane was not right, definitely not, but he has won. There is no other way to look at it. Ben-Ari, the representative of Baruch Marzel and Rabbi Dov Wolpe, members of the Eretz Israel Shelanu (Our Land of Israel) faction in the National Union, already expressed himself on Arutz Sheva radio shortly before the elections that, "if breaking a law means opposing the expulsion of Jews, I'm a lawbreaker." Together with his designated assistant, Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has had 46 indictments served against him and was in fact acquitted in most of the cases, they are a pair of extreme right provocateurs who do not belong in the government. Anyone who espouses transfer of the Arabs, the construction of the Temple and redemption must not be a member of the government here, not even a junior member. Got that, ANYONE who hopes for the geulah must not be a member of the government, per the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. I shouldn't be at this point, but I'm just stunned. Published at Mystical Paths, MPaths.com. Reading it somewhere else? Stop by the source! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090304/11769ef0/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Tue Mar 3 22:19:56 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Israel Apartheid Week Message-ID: <396234.1682.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Betty! -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Wed Mar 4 12:23:11 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:23:11 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] King David's Example References: <49AEC1AF.B5907.6D15@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: King David's example. One thing David did, as the leader of the government, that set him apart in my opinion, Is that when a prophet of Hashem spoke to him, whether rebuke, or encouragement.... David heeded the prophet. Stephen Tikkun Tzedek From RNDAVAR at aol.com Thu Mar 5 00:09:35 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:09:35 EST Subject: [Dialogue] New Series - March 8th Message-ID: Sorry for any duplication. I'm just a bit excited about getting back behind the microphone and wanted to make sure everyone remembered! Please help me spread the word ~ New Series - A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith I am pleased to announce that beginning March 8th, 2009 at 6:00 P.M. Central, I will begin a new and informative series. Content The weekly classes in my new series will focus on the Annual cycle of readings followed faithfully by traditional Jews around the world. Each week, according to this cycle of readings, a section of the Torah and the prophets will be highlighted. Options - Make the experience personal! You will have the option of listening in live on Sunday night, or if your schedule does not allow you to listen in live, you will have an entire week to download our podcast for study at your own leasure. Some may wish to wait until the Sabbath to listen. I have also determined through feedback from many of my faithful listeners (and from other sources) that the length of the most effective teachings are under an hour and razor sharp! My goal will be to organize the teaching in such a way to effectively cover the main points of the weekly parsha (Torah section) in a class that is much closer to 30 minutes. This way, most people can download the class and listen to it during an average commute to work or while you run errands, go to the gym, etc. My main goal as a teacher is to encourage you to study the Torah and to learn to apply its principles to your life in a modern world - thus inspiring you to live a more biblically authentic lifestyle. I am trying to make this is convenient for you as possible. I want you to learn! Over the course of the year we will cover the entire Torah! Your life will be transformed as you drink of the refreshing waters of the God-inspired teaching of Moses. Why focus on the Torah? As David said in Psalm 119:18, "Open my eyes and I will look for wonderful things from your Torah". We will do just that! We will open our eyes and take a fresh look at the Torah. The final prophetic word in the Hebrew Bible, recorded in Malachi says, "Remember the torah of my servant Moses" (Malachi 4:4 - English Bible). And yet, humanity has drifted far from "the teaching". The nearly 6.5 billion inhabitants of our planet need to hear the words of this eternal teaching delivered once and for all to the ancient people of Israel. After all, the intent of this teaching was that it would go forth to all nations (Isaiah 2 and Micah 4), and ultimately, in what the Bible calls the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), the Torah will be written upon the heart. Despite what people believe Jesus the Jew taught, it is recorded that he claimed that did not come to abolish the Torah or the prophets but to fulfill - adding further that until heaven and earth passed - not a single letter...not even a stroke of a letter would pass from the torah until all was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-20)! I can think of no greater subject matter to devote my time to learning and to helping others learn than the Torah of Moses. Who Would Benefit from these classes? I believe that these classes will be helpful for Jews and Christians as my style is unique. I am a bit tough to label as I tend to resist such categories, opting for the simple designation of "biblical". I will at times draw upon Jewish wisdom, much of which is organized around these very weekly readings from the Torah and Prophets, but I am not Jewish. I will often draw upon texts from the Christian Scriptures, much of which clearly points people to a Torah way of living, though I no longer associate myself with the label of Christian. "Christianity" in its modern sense has long ago abandoned the religion of Jesus for a religion about him. I hope that you will listen in and that you will encourage others to listen in as well. In addition to the weekly class I will post a blog for download. The intent will be to publish a handsome document for download and printing each week with my own notes on the weekly parsha. You can put them in a 3-ring binder and at the end of the year you will have a complete reference work for your further studies. I hope to expand this as time goes on into a full course, complete with on-line tests and a certificate of completion for those who stick with us. I am more and more planning to spend my energy developing, with the help of my faithful friend Brian Jones, a virtual community on the web where you can experience fellowship with others who are seeking to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. This "_Synagogue Without Walls_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) " is catching on. People from literally around the world are joining up. I encourage you to check it out. And finally, there is no greater reward than to lead people to a better understanding of God and His ways. As Hillel said, "Be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and bringing them closer to the Torah". We are all disciples and this saying has inspired me in the current direction of Roots of Faith and our ongoing effort to bring people closer to the Torah. I hope that you can join us. The new series will be called A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith. I believe that you will be greatly blessed by this series. Shalom, Ross Roots of Faith Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/a558673e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 08:02:30 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:02:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] New Series - March 8th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: TERRIFIC!!!! THANKS, ROSS! From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:09 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] New Series - March 8th Sorry for any duplication. I'm just a bit excited about getting back behind the microphone and wanted to make sure everyone remembered! Please help me spread the word ~ New Series - A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith I am pleased to announce that beginning March 8th, 2009 at 6:00 P.M. Central, I will begin a new and informative series. Content The weekly classes in my new series will focus on the Annual cycle of readings followed faithfully by traditional Jews around the world. Each week, according to this cycle of readings, a section of the Torah and the prophets will be highlighted. Options - Make the experience personal! You will have the option of listening in live on Sunday night, or if your schedule does not allow you to listen in live, you will have an entire week to download our podcast for study at your own leasure. Some may wish to wait until the Sabbath to listen. I have also determined through feedback from many of my faithful listeners (and from other sources) that the length of the most effective teachings are under an hour and razor sharp! My goal will be to organize the teaching in such a way to effectively cover the main points of the weekly parsha (Torah section) in a class that is much closer to 30 minutes. This way, most people can download the class and listen to it during an average commute to work or while you run errands, go to the gym, etc. My main goal as a teacher is to encourage you to study the Torah and to learn to apply its principles to your life in a modern world - thus inspiring you to live a more biblically authentic lifestyle. I am trying to make this is convenient for you as possible. I want you to learn! Over the course of the year we will cover the entire Torah! Your life will be transformed as you drink of the refreshing waters of the God-inspired teaching of Moses. Why focus on the Torah? As David said in Psalm 119:18, "Open my eyes and I will look for wonderful things from your Torah". We will do just that! We will open our eyes and take a fresh look at the Torah. The final prophetic word in the Hebrew Bible, recorded in Malachi says, "Remember the torah of my servant Moses" (Malachi 4:4 - English Bible). And yet, humanity has drifted far from "the teaching". The nearly 6.5 billion inhabitants of our planet need to hear the words of this eternal teaching delivered once and for all to the ancient people of Israel. After all, the intent of this teaching was that it would go forth to all nations (Isaiah 2 and Micah 4), and ultimately, in what the Bible calls the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), the Torah will be written upon the heart. Despite what people believe Jesus the Jew taught, it is recorded that he claimed that did not come to abolish the Torah or the prophets but to fulfill - adding further that until heaven and earth passed - not a single letter...not even a stroke of a letter would pass from the torah until all was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-20)! I can think of no greater subject matter to devote my time to learning and to helping others learn than the Torah of Moses. Who Would Benefit from these classes? I believe that these classes will be helpful for Jews and Christians as my style is unique. I am a bit tough to label as I tend to resist such categories, opting for the simple designation of "biblical". I will at times draw upon Jewish wisdom, much of which is organized around these very weekly readings from the Torah and Prophets, but I am not Jewish. I will often draw upon texts from the Christian Scriptures, much of which clearly points people to a Torah way of living, though I no longer associate myself with the label of Christian. "Christianity" in its modern sense has long ago abandoned the religion of Jesus for a religion about him. I hope that you will listen in and that you will encourage others to listen in as well. In addition to the weekly class I will post a blog for download. The intent will be to publish a handsome document for download and printing each week with my own notes on the weekly parsha. You can put them in a 3-ring binder and at the end of the year you will have a complete reference work for your further studies. I hope to expand this as time goes on into a full course, complete with on-line tests and a certificate of completion for those who stick with us. I am more and more planning to spend my energy developing, with the help of my faithful friend Brian Jones, a virtual community on the web where you can experience fellowship with others who are seeking to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. This "Synagogue Without Walls" is catching on. People from literally around the world are joining up. I encourage you to check it out. And finally, there is no greater reward than to lead people to a better understanding of God and His ways. As Hillel said, "Be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and bringing them closer to the Torah". We are all disciples and this saying has inspired me in the current direction of Roots of Faith and our ongoing effort to bring people closer to the Torah. I hope that you can join us. The new series will be called A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith. I believe that you will be greatly blessed by this series. Shalom, Ross Roots of Faith Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a job? Find employment help in your area. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/95735669/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 5 08:36:31 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:36:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] New Series - March 8th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <030520091436.4557.49AFE36F00010054000011CD22228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Excellent Ross! Everybody remember, we go to daylight savings time Sunday morning. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patricia Robbins" : -------------- TERRIFIC!!!! THANKS, ROSS! From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:09 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] New Series - March 8th Sorry for any duplication. I'm just a bit excited about getting back behind the microphone and wanted to make sure everyone remembered! Please help me spread the word ~ New Series - A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith I am pleased to announce that beginning March 8th, 2009 at 6:00 P.M. Central, I will begin a new and informative series. Content The weekly classes in my new series will focus on the Annual cycle of readings followed faithfully by traditional Jews around the world. Each week, according to this cycle of readings, a section of the Torah and the prophets will be highlighted. Options - Make the experience personal! You will have the option of listening in live on Sunday night, or if your schedule does not allow you to listen in live, you will have an entire week to download our podcast for study at your own leasure. Some may wish to wait until the Sabbath to listen. I have also determined through feedback from many of my faithful listeners (and from other sources) that the length of the most effective teachings are under an hour and razor sharp! My goal will be to organize the teaching in such a way to effectively cover the main points of the weekly parsha (Torah section) in a class that is much closer to 30 minutes. This way, most people can download the class and listen to it during an average commute to work or while you run errands, go to the gym, etc. My main goal as a teacher is to encourage you to study the Torah and to learn to apply its principles to your life in a modern world - thus inspiring you to live a more biblically authentic lifestyle. I am trying to make this is convenient for you as possible. I want you to learn! Over the course of the year we will cover the entire Torah! Your life will be transformed as you drink of the refreshing waters of the God-inspired teaching of Moses. Why focus on the Torah? As David said in Psalm 119:18, "Open my eyes and I will look for wonderful things from your Torah". We will do just that! We will open our eyes and take a fresh look at the Torah. The final prophetic word in the Hebrew Bible, recorded in Malachi says, "Remember the torah of my servant Moses" (Malachi 4:4 - English Bible). And yet, humanity has drifted far from "the teaching". The nearly 6.5 billion inhabitants of our planet need to hear the words of this eternal teaching delivered once and for all to the ancient people of Israel. After all, the intent of this teaching was that it would go forth to all nations (Isaiah 2 and Micah 4), and ultimately, in what the Bible calls the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), the Torah will be written upon the heart. Despite what people believe Jesus the Jew taught, it is recorded that he claimed that did not come to abolish the Torah or the prophets but to fulfill - adding further that until heaven and earth passed - not a single letter...not even a stroke of a letter would pass from the torah until all was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-20)! I can think of no greater subject matter to devote my time to learning and to helping others learn than the Torah of Moses. Who Would Benefit from these classes? I believe that these classes will be helpful for Jews and Christians as my style is unique. I am a bit tough to label as I tend to resist such categories, opting for the simple designation of "biblical". I will at times draw upon Jewish wisdom, much of which is organized around these very weekly readings from the Torah and Prophets, but I am not Jewish. I will often draw upon texts from the Christian Scriptures, much of which clearly points people to a Torah way of living, though I no longer associate myself with the label of Christian. "Christianity" in its modern sense has long ago abandoned the religion of Jesus for a religion about him. I hope that you will listen in and that you will encourage others to listen in as well. In addition to the weekly class I will post a blog for download. The intent will be to publish a handsome document for download and printing each week with my own notes on the weekly parsha. You can put them in a 3-ring binder and at the end of the year you will have a complete reference work for your further studies. I hope to expand this as time goes on into a full course, complete with on-line tests and a certificate of completion for those who stick with us. I am more and more planning to spend my energy developing, with the help of my faithful friend Brian Jones, a virtual community on the web where you can experience fellowship with others who are seeking to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. This "Synagogue Without Walls" is catching on. People from literally around the world are joining up. I encourage you to check it out. And finally, there is no greater reward than to lead people to a better understanding of God and His ways. As Hillel said, "Be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and bringing them closer to the Torah". We are all disciples and this saying has inspired me in the current direction of Roots of Faith and our ongoing effort to bring people closer to the Torah. I hope that you can join us. The new series will be called A Parsha Study with Roots of Faith. I believe that you will be greatly blessed by this series. Shalom, Ross Roots of Faith Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/414a8894/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 08:42:35 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:42:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <302662.61330.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <302662.61330.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, thank you for this wonderful reminder, James! Our G-d Reigns!!!! He is Everything Good and Pure and Wonderful to us!!!!! HE IS THE FOCUS OF OUR LIVES, not a man! Pat From: W Glenn Chatterton Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King, Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are. HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that." Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/06d748a3/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 09:17:00 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:17:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <239787.8381.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". ? Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Patricia Robbins wrote: From: Patricia Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 6:42 AM Yes, thank you for this wonderful reminder, James!? Our G-d Reigns!!!!? He is Everything Good and Pure and Wonderful?to us!!!!!? HE IS THE FOCUS OF OUR LIVES, not a man! ? Pat From: W Glenn Chatterton Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on?YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King,?Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! ? Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah.? Not really.? We know exactly what he is going to do.? So why do we need him to do it?? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah.? Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that?? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so?"natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are.? ? HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King.? So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah?? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do.? Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown.? And that's kind of sad when you think about it.? We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it.? And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that."? ? Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews.? Why did you wonder what I was going to do?? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" ? Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes.? After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/f3f4e418/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 09:34:12 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <239787.8381.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <239787.8381.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Susie, Nu. 23:19 says, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El)........or the son of a human being (u'ben adam)." To me, that explains what "echad" means. I think the second part of that verse clears up all misunderstandings concerning G-d taking on human form and being born of a human mother (which was universally believed among the Mystery Religions of their gods!). Love, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:17 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Patricia Robbins wrote: From: Patricia Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 6:42 AM Yes, thank you for this wonderful reminder, James! Our G-d Reigns!!!! He is Everything Good and Pure and Wonderful to us!!!!! HE IS THE FOCUS OF OUR LIVES, not a man! Pat From: W Glenn Chatterton Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King, Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are. HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that." Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. -------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/02babcf0/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Thu Mar 5 11:14:21 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: <239787.8381.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pat, I can't let your quote and commentary go without a hearty "Amein"! Love, Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Hi Susie, Nu. 23:19 says, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El)........or the son of a human being (u'ben adam)." To me, that explains what "echad" means. I think the second part of that verse clears up all misunderstandings concerning G-d taking on human form and being born of a human mother (which was universally believed among the Mystery Religions of their gods!). Love, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:17 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Patricia Robbins wrote: From: Patricia Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 6:42 AM Yes, thank you for this wonderful reminder, James! Our G-d Reigns!!!! He is Everything Good and Pure and Wonderful to us!!!!! HE IS THE FOCUS OF OUR LIVES, not a man! Pat From: W Glenn Chatterton Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King, Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are. HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that." Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. ------------------------------------------------------------ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/cab9e2b4/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Mar 5 12:34:59 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:34:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: <239787.8381.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b001c99dc1$1904e550$0400a8c0@marvin> Let?s pose a question along the line of this thread. Let?s say our focus should be on YHVH, One on one relationship, walking in the garden just like Adam and Eve. However, YHVH instituted and or allowed a Messiah, Prophet, Priest, King and a Temple. Now, considering that God is dealing with us humans, working to bring us back to the one on one relationship, I can see were all the offices and positions are needed and they work and operate around the Temple, both in the past and the future. But if God really wanted a one on one relationship with out any go between why did he give eternal promises to at least a couple of these positions? Maybe in the future the positions, Prophet Priest and King(Messiah) will be rolled into one? Is that a biblically based Ideal or Christian interpretation placed on the text? I?m still not sure? But according to that line of reasoning we really do not need any thing or one standing between us and YHVH. Maybe, as we are in the process of return they are all needed but some or all drop off as we go through time? So, following this line of thinking why did YHVH send Moses to gather the Israelites? Jump forward into time, Notice a couple of things in the text. Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that Mosheh was so long in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aharon, and said to him, ?Arise, make us mighty ones who go before us. For this Mosheh, the man who brought us up out of the land of Mitsrayim, we do not know what has become of him.? Exo 32:2 And Aharon said to them, ?Take off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.? Exo 32:3 ?And all the people took off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aharon. Exo 32:4 And he took this from their hand, and he formed it with an engraving tool, and made a moulded calf. And they said, ?This is your mighty one, O Yisra??l, that brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim!? Exo 32:5 And Aharon saw and built an altar before it. And Aharon called out and said, ?Tomorrow is a festival to ????.? Exo 32:6 And they rose early on the next day, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Exo 32:7 And ???? said to Mosheh, ?Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Mitsrayim have corrupted themselves. Exo 32:8 ?They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a moulded calf, and have bowed themselves to it and slaughtered to it, and said, ?This is your mighty one, O Yisra??l, who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim!? ? Exo 32:9 And ???? said to Mosheh, ?I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people! Exo 32:10 ?And now, let Me alone, that My wrath might burn against them and I consume them and I make of you a great nation.? Exo 32:11 But Mosheh pleaded with ???? his Elohim, and said, ?????, why does Your wrath burn against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Mitsrayim with great power and with a strong hand? Exo 32:12 ?Why should the Mitsrites speak, and say, ?For evil He brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?? Turn from the heat of Your wrath, and relent from this evil to Your people. Exo 32:13 ?Remember Ab?raham, Yitsh?aq, and Yisra??l, Your servants, to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ?I increase your seed like the stars of the heavens. And all this land that I have spoken of I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.? ? The children of Israel made Moses, there ?Mighty One? in to a golden calf (idol) then they offered burnt offerings on a festival to YHVH. They got there eyes on the man Moses and forgot who their elohim really was, they replaced YHVH with a man(Moses). Moses in v.11 never forgot who is elohim was. I think God?s pattern is that he will use a man to bring us, we just have to remember who or ?Mighty One? is. By the way, that is Mighty One, not Mighty Two! Still trying to figure it all out! shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:34 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Hi Susie, Nu. 23:19 says, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El)........or the son of a human being (u'ben adam)." To me, that explains what "echad" means. I think the second part of that verse clears up all misunderstandings concerning G-d taking on human form and being born of a human mother (which was universally believed among the Mystery Religions of their gods!). Love, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:17 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Patricia Robbins wrote: From: Patricia Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 6:42 AM Yes, thank you for this wonderful reminder, James! Our G-d Reigns!!!! He is Everything Good and Pure and Wonderful to us!!!!! HE IS THE FOCUS OF OUR LIVES, not a man! Pat From: W Glenn Chatterton Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Amen to this, Ya'aqov! I believe our focus should be firmly fixed on YHVH, and not on a man, even if he is Mashiach. We have but One King, Redeemer, Deliverer and Saviour... and I for one anxiously await His appearance! Glenn --- On Tue, 3/3/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:48 PM I find some real wisdom in your works here Miriam. The two things HaShem said he did not want Israel to have were a human king and a temple. And yet ironically, in various ways, Christians and Jews ended up making those very two things the central focus of future hopes, the singular answer to all our ills, the fulfillment of our future dreams. And in each case the response, to both king and temple, through the prophet involved, was why would you want such if you have YHVH? The one consistent refrain in Torah and Prophets is the intimate personal relationship between HaShem and his people--both individually and corporately: To this one will I look, to him of a poor and contrite heart who trembles at my word... And I will be their God and they will be my people... If not now, when? James On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:35 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: Oddly enough, I really don't think we need the Messiah. Not really. We know exactly what he is going to do. So why do we need him to do it? He's going to teach the Jews to observe the whole Torah. Didn't Moses and all of the Prophets already teach us that? He's going to teach the non-Jews to accept the basic moral laws of the Torah. I wouldn't go so far as some Rabbis do and say these laws are so "natural," they almost don't need to be taught, but we do already know what they are. HaShem expressed displeasure when Jews first asked for a human King. So what are we really saying when we say we need the Messiah? We're saying we need to be forced to do what we know we're supposed to do. Because that's the "meaty" role of the King Messiah - to force by authority of the Crown. And that's kind of sad when you think about it. We have the whole Torah, but need a King to read it to us and make us do it. And then we'll say, "Oh yeah, we knew that." Even if HaShem decides to send Jesus, for the sake of the Christians and Muslims, I could just see Jesus saying, "You had my words, you knew the role of the King of the Jews. Why did you wonder what I was going to do? Why did you need my physical presence to do what I said?" Perhaps this is why the Rabbis will say how much greater the reward is today, before the Messiah comes. After we begin to obey by pressure of force, the rewards will be diminished. _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/7d6653db/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Thu Mar 5 18:12:46 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:12:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon References: <49B01328.226F1.6A23@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <03CE03CBC5C4434CBCBDFECE8128E92F@SEWVAC011> I found this scripture in the Stone Edition Tanach while reading. I loved the poetry of it. Ezekiel 46:1 Thus said the Lord Hashem/Elohim: "The gate of the inner courtyard that faces eastward shall be closed during the six days of labor, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. ... I'm sure various denominations or groups could come up with a myriad of meanings... I was just intrigued to find "Sabbath" and "New Moon" related to a similar event.... a gate being opened. Anyone with any wisdom to share on this for me, I would appreciate. As mentioned, to myself, it is "poetry of the Word - of Scripture" .. almost like a beautiful song being song. And while I may not always know the meaning of a song... my heart can resonate with the beauty of a song.... Stephen Tikkun Tzedek From MiriamL613 at aol.com Thu Mar 5 18:50:29 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:50:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/2009 10:17:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com writes: I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". Susie>> There are various ways of understanding "one," and that's led to lots of different opinions. The first time we encounter this is in Genesis where Adam and Eve become "one." Water in a glass is one glass of water, but the water is not the glass. Similarly, G-d dwelling IN His people does not make His people G-d. In both the Tanach and the Christian writings, people are equated with being Temples for the indwelling of G-d. In the Tanach, G-d says, "Let them make Me a sanctuary and I will dwell in them" (Exodus 25:8). Both the Gospel of John (2:21) and 1 Cor. 6:19 speak of the body as a temple. John 14:10 says, "I am in the Father and the Father in me...the Father who dwells in me does His works." The basic concept here is that oneness is not sameness. Adam and Eve would have to buy two tickets to get into a movie. There's a oneness in heart and spirit that Jesus spoke of in John 17 -- a prayer in which he asked that all of his followers "...be one, even as we are one, I in them and Thou in me that they may become perfectly one." Particularly in chassidic Judaism, one could find discussions that say because G-d is everywhere and no part of creation exists without His presence and because His presence (i.e., the fullness of the meaning of "omnipresent" and G-d is One) fills all of creation, one can conclude that everything IS G-d. Yet, of course, we understand that the Creator is not the creation. So, yes, there's lots of ways to understand "One." Fortunately, Torah law defines what ways it may not be understood and what ways constitute idolatry, so that worship is directed to G-d Alone. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/1a40b1d2/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Thu Mar 5 19:07:58 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:07:58 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Priests in the truest sense of the word must be descended from Aaron. Aaron was of the Tribe of Levi. Messiah in its classic sense, i.e., King Messiah, must be descended from David and Solomon (and also Zerubabel), of the tribe of Judah. So it can't be the same person. There are ways to understand both "messiah" and "priests" which are not specific to patrilineal descent, but are more or less "generic" titles referring to anointing (apart from that of Kingship) as in Psalm 105:15, and a functional service role (i.e., all Israel being a kingdom of priests - Exodus 19:6) not related to serving in the Holy Temple. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/74edd52b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 5 20:08:47 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:08:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon In-Reply-To: <03CE03CBC5C4434CBCBDFECE8128E92F@SEWVAC011> References: <49B01328.226F1.6A23@pop.directnic.com> <03CE03CBC5C4434CBCBDFECE8128E92F@SEWVAC011> Message-ID: <6EDBC89651684F1783EBD35200332204@bettylaptop> Steven, I love the poetry of these words too. I am not sure exactly how the Sabbath relates to the New Moon either, but it is beautiful how the gate of the inner courtyard that faces the east is opened on both the Sabbath and the New Moon. I have a couple of ideas, but do not have the time to adequately expound on them. Perhaps someone else might want to pick up on these thoughts. Briefly, my thoughts on this subject center around the possibility that there is a gender connection between the two...a gender connection in the spiritual sense, that is. The Shekhinah, or the name of HaShem's Presence dwelling within, is traditionally viewed as feminine. So, on Erev Shabbat (Sabbath eve)in Jewish tradition we welcome the Sabbath Bride in singing the beautiful song "Lechi Dodi" as we ritually turn and face towards the east and the open doors of the sanctuary. The Sabbath then is seen as a bride to be welcomed as a special guest into our hearts, as and as welcome the Sabbath Bride, we welcome the Shekhinah...not to say that we would not welcome and carry HaShem into our hearts during the rest of the week.but just that on Sabbath, since it is a special day set aside since the Creation, the indwelling might be said to be more special or more apparent. The mystics even say we receive an additional soul or double blessing on the Sabbath. There are many teachings on the New Moon and its relationship to the feminine gender and the Shekhinah as well.and even a ceremony for going outside, facing the moon and blessing HaShem for the moon's renewal. Lots more info regarding renewal of the New Moon, connections to Israel and redemption.really some deep and fascinating stuff. Shalom & Blessings Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of stephen Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon I found this scripture in the Stone Edition Tanach while reading. I loved the poetry of it. Ezekiel 46:1 Thus said the Lord Hashem/Elohim: "The gate of the inner courtyard that faces eastward shall be closed during the six days of labor, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. ... I'm sure various denominations or groups could come up with a myriad of meanings... I was just intrigued to find "Sabbath" and "New Moon" related to a similar event.... a gate being opened. Anyone with any wisdom to share on this for me, I would appreciate. As mentioned, to myself, it is "poetry of the Word - of Scripture" .. almost like a beautiful song being song. And while I may not always know the meaning of a song... my heart can resonate with the beauty of a song.... Stephen Tikkun Tzedek _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/7ba9fd1e/attachment.html From standenz at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 5 20:32:02 2009 From: standenz at bellsouth.net (standenz at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 02:32:02 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon In-Reply-To: <6EDBC89651684F1783EBD35200332204@bettylaptop> References: <49B01328.226F1.6A23@pop.directnic.com><03CE03CBC5C4434CBCBDFECE8128E92F@SEWVAC011> <6EDBC89651684F1783EBD35200332204@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <030620090232.7353.49B08B2200006CDD00001CB922243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF96020A0B04020E0A06@att.net> No big theological breakthrough, but if you look at a Jewish calendar you will find that certian spring and fall Holy Days commence with a new moon. These Holt days are Sabbaths and have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath. Maybe I have misunderstood your query, but this came to mind. Stan -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Steven, I love the poetry of these words too. I am not sure exactly how the Sabbath relates to the New Moon either, but it is beautiful how the gate of the inner courtyard that faces the east is opened on both the Sabbath and the New Moon. I have a couple of ideas, but do not have the time to adequately expound on them. Perhaps someone else might want to pick up on these thoughts. Briefly, my thoughts on this subject center around the possibility that there is a gender connection between the two...a gender connection in the spiritual sense, that is. The Shekhinah, or the name of HaShem's Presence dwelling within, is traditionally viewed as feminine. So, on Erev Shabbat (Sabbath eve)in Jewish tradition we welcome the Sabbath Bride in singing the beautiful song "Lechi Dodi" as we ritually turn and face towards the east and the open doors of the sanctuary. The Sabbath then is seen as a bride to be welcomed as a special guest into our hearts, as and as welcome the Sabbath Bride, we welcome the Shekhinah...not to say that we would not welcome and carry HaShem into our hearts during the rest of the week?but just that on Sabbath, since it is a special day set aside since the Creation, the indwelling might be said to be more special or more apparent. The mystics even say we receive an additional soul or double blessing on the Sabbath. There are many teachings on the New Moon and its relationship to the feminine gender and the Shekhinah as well?and even a ceremony for going outside, facing the moon and blessing HaShem for the moon?s renewal. Lots more info regarding renewal of the New Moon, connections to Israel and redemption?really some deep and fascinating stuff? Shalom & Blessings Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of stephen Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon I found this scripture in the Stone Edition Tanach while reading. I loved the poetry of it. Ezekiel 46:1 Thus said the Lord Hashem/Elohim: "The gate of the inner courtyard that faces eastward shall be closed during the six days of labor, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. ... I'm sure various denominations or groups could come up with a myriad of meanings... I was just intrigued to find "Sabbath" and "New Moon" related to a similar event.... a gate being opened. Anyone with any wisdom to share on this for me, I would appreciate. As mentioned, to myself, it is "poetry of the Word - of Scripture" .. almost like a beautiful song being song. And while I may not always know the meaning of a song... my heart can resonate with the beauty of a song.... Stephen Tikkun Tzedek _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/eef6e072/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 20:57:13 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:57:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon In-Reply-To: <030620090232.7353.49B08B2200006CDD00001CB922243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF96020A0B04020E0A06@att.net> Message-ID: <360656.80028.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I think you will find the answer in the Feast of Trumpets( also known as Yom Teruah, The Hidden Day, The day no man knows the day or hour, etc.) Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, standenz at bellsouth.net wrote: From: standenz at bellsouth.net Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 6:32 PM ?No big theological breakthrough, but if you look at a Jewish calendar you will find that certian spring and fall Holy Days commence with a new moon. These Holt days are Sabbaths and have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath. Maybe I have misunderstood your query, but this came to mind. ? Stan -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- #yiv651922378 st1\:*{} Steven, I love the poetry of these words too. ? I am not sure exactly how the Sabbath relates to the New Moon either, but it is beautiful how the gate of the inner courtyard that faces the east is opened on both the Sabbath and the New Moon.? I have a couple of ideas, but do not have the time to adequately expound on them.? Perhaps someone else might want to pick up on these thoughts. ? Briefly, my thoughts on this subject center around the possibility that there is a gender connection between the two...a gender connection in the spiritual sense, that is.? The Shekhinah, or the name of HaShem's Presence dwelling within, is traditionally viewed as feminine. ? So, on Erev Shabbat (Sabbath eve)in Jewish tradition we welcome the Sabbath Bride in singing the beautiful song "Lechi Dodi" as we ritually turn and face towards the east and the open doors of the sanctuary.? The Sabbath then is seen as a bride to be welcomed as a special guest into our hearts, as and as welcome the Sabbath Bride, we welcome the Shekhinah...not to say that we would not welcome and carry HaShem into our hearts during the rest of the week?but just that on Sabbath, since it is a special day set aside since the Creation, the indwelling might be said to be more special or more apparent.? The mystics even say we receive an additional soul or double blessing on the Sabbath. ? There are many teachings on the New Moon and its relationship to the feminine gender and the Shekhinah as well?and even a ceremony for going outside, facing the moon and blessing HaShem for the moon?s renewal.? Lots more info regarding renewal of the New Moon, connections to Israel and redemption?really some deep and fascinating stuff? ? Shalom & Blessings ? Elisheva/Betty ? -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of stephen Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath and New Moon ? I found this scripture in the Stone Edition Tanach while reading. ? I loved the poetry of it. ? Ezekiel 46:1 ? Thus said the Lord Hashem/Elohim: "The gate of the inner courtyard that faces ? eastward shall be closed during the six days of labor, but on the Sabbath day ? it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. ? ... I'm sure various denominations or groups could come up with a myriad of meanings... I was just intrigued to find "Sabbath" and "New Moon" related to a similar event.... a gate being opened.? Anyone with any wisdom to share on this for me, I would appreciate.? As mentioned, to myself, it is "poetry of the Word - of Scripture" .. almost like a beautiful song being song.? And while I may not always know the meaning of a song... my heart can resonate with the beauty of a song.... ? Stephen ? ? Tikkun? Tzedek ? ______________________________________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/2effd58e/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 21:38:58 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:38:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <56069.47873.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I find interesting that Mary(Miriam) the mother of Yeshua descended from both the priestly line and the kingly line. ? Susie --- On Thu, 3/5/09, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 5:07 PM Priests in the truest sense of the word must be descended from Aaron.? Aaron was of the Tribe of Levi.? Messiah in its classic sense, i.e., King Messiah, must be descended from David and Solomon (and also Zerubabel), of the tribe of Judah.? So it can't be the same person.? ? There are ways to understand both "messiah" and "priests" which are not specific to patrilineal descent, but are more or less "generic" titles referring to anointing (apart from that of Kingship)?as in Psalm 105:15, and a functional service role (i.e., all Israel being a kingdom of priests - Exodus 19:6) not related to serving in the Holy Temple. ? Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090305/75b93739/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Thu Mar 5 23:03:04 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 00:03:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/2009 10:39:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com writes: I find interesting that Mary(Miriam) the mother of Yeshua descended from both the priestly line and the kingly line.. Susie>> It's an assumption that the Gospel of Luke lists a lineage for Mary, since her name is conspicuously absent from the list. In Judaism, tribal lineage traces through the father. That's why, for example, 1 Chronicles only lists the men and their sons. But even if Luke did list the lineage of Mary, it still goes back to David who is of the tribe of Judah (Luke 3:31). And I would genuinely be interested in learning how any Christian commentary explains how Shealtiel and Zerubbabel could be descendants of David's son Nathan (Luke 3:27) while Matthew 1:12-13 says Shealtiel and Zerubbabel were descendants of David's son Solomon. My personal take on this is that the author of Luke was mistaken, because Zerubabbel is in the lineage of Solomon (1 Chronicles 3:10-19). Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/09da797a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 5 23:05:21 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 05:05:21 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <030620090505.23678.49B0AF110000B94D00005C7E22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Miriam, Please elaborate, I don't understand. i.e., King Messiah, must be descended from David and Solomon (and also Zerubabel), of the tribe of Judah. So it can't be the same person. Why can't they be the same person? There are ways to understand both "messiah" and "priests" which are not specific to patrilineal descent, but are more or less "generic" titles referring to anointing (apart from that of Kingship) as in Psalm 105:15, and a functional service role (i.e., all Israel being a kingdom of priests - Exodus 19:6) not related to serving in the Holy Temple. What is your point here? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from MiriamL613 at aol.com: -------------- Priests in the truest sense of the word must be descended from Aaron. Aaron was of the Tribe of Levi. Messiah in its classic sense, i.e., King Messiah, must be descended from David and Solomon (and also Zerubabel), of the tribe of Judah. So it can't be the same person. There are ways to understand both "messiah" and "priests" which are not specific to patrilineal descent, but are more or less "generic" titles referring to anointing (apart from that of Kingship) as in Psalm 105:15, and a functional service role (i.e., all Israel being a kingdom of priests - Exodus 19:6) not related to serving in the Holy Temple. Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/df64791a/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Thu Mar 5 23:12:43 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 00:12:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: The question that was posed was -- couldn't the Messiah also be a priest? He cannot be a priest in the classic sense of the word, "Kohane," because the Kohanim must be descended from Aaron of the Tribe of Levi, whereas the King Messiah must be descended from David and Solomon who are of the Tribe of Judah. One man cannot have two patrilineal tribal lineages, just as a man cannot be the physical son of his father as well as the physical son of his uncle (his father's brother). Judah and Levi were brothers. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/3d4424fc/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 5 23:19:18 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 05:19:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <030620090519.8039.49B0B255000F19BB00001F6722243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thank you. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from MiriamL613 at aol.com: -------------- The question that was posed was -- couldn't the Messiah also be a priest? He cannot be a priest in the classic sense of the word, "Kohane," because the Kohanim must be descended from Aaron of the Tribe of Levi, whereas the King Messiah must be descended from David and Solomon who are of the Tribe of Judah. One man cannot have two patrilineal tribal lineages, just as a man cannot be the physical son of his father as well as the physical son of his uncle (his father's brother). Judah and Levi were brothers. Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/7db66b71/attachment.html From long777 at att.net Fri Mar 6 06:17:34 2009 From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 06:17:34 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c99e55$88d99760$4001a8c0@Rainbow> I think it is important to note, that Messiah indeed cannot hold the EARTHLY office of a High Priest. This is reserved for the descendents of Aharon. This is why Hebrews tells us about Melechzedek. This is one who was BOTh Priest and King. Messiah on earth cannot officiate at the Temple, he is bound by the rules as we all are. Do these same rules apply to a Heavenly Tabernacle??? Jeremy Ecc 12:13 This is the conclusion; when all has been heard; fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" The question that was posed was -- couldn't the Messiah also be a priest? He cannot be a priest in the classic sense of the word, "Kohane," because the Kohanim must be descended from Aaron of the Tribe of Levi, whereas the King Messiah must be descended from David and Solomon who are of the Tribe of Judah. One man cannot have two patrilineal tribal lineages, just as a man cannot be the physical son of his father as well as the physical son of his uncle (his father's brother). Judah and Levi were brothers. Miriam _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/f01d112d/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Mar 6 07:05:49 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:05:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c99e5c$47351210$0400a8c0@marvin> Miriam, If you are interested in what christian commentaries say on these verse let me know and I will send these to you. When I get into these birth records I generally end up with a headache. I personally lean toward the thinking that the birth records in Matt. and Luk. are to establish Jesus lineage to Judah for the reader but not to be used as a legal document to divide up the family inheritance. Kind of like the birth record in your family bible, a judge might except it at face value, but once it came down to dividing up the Zillion's we then do a DNA test. :-) And beside's christian theology makes these not relevant, since all good christain that have and maintain the faith, know that Joseph was not Jesus' daddy. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In a message dated 3/5/2009 10:39:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com writes: I find interesting that Mary(Miriam) the mother of Yeshua descended from both the priestly line and the kingly line.. Susie>> It's an assumption that the Gospel of Luke lists a lineage for Mary, since her name is conspicuously absent from the list. In Judaism, tribal lineage traces through the father. That's why, for example, 1 Chronicles only lists the men and their sons. But even if Luke did list the lineage of Mary, it still goes back to David who is of the tribe of Judah (Luke 3:31). And I would genuinely be interested in learning how any Christian commentary explains how Shealtiel and Zerubbabel could be descendants of David's son Nathan (Luke 3:27) while Matthew 1:12-13 says Shealtiel and Zerubbabel were descendants of David's son Solomon. My personal take on this is that the author of Luke was mistaken, because Zerubabbel is in the lineage of Solomon (1 Chronicles 3:10-19). Miriam _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/bb88fc2c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 6 08:19:11 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:19:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure if we are in agreement on this thread, Miriam. You and I may well be saying the same thing here. I had assumed Susie's implied question to be, "Is Jesus G-d, and what does Torah say concerning that premise?" To me, HaShem pointedly answers this very question with Nu 23:19, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El).....or the son of a human being (u ben adam)." Since "Miriam (Mary)" was a human being, and Jesus was her son, I am not able to draw any conclusion other than: he is therefore not G-d, according to Torah. Also, since Jesus was a man, he must be doubly disqualified from being G-d, according to Torah, or so it seems to me. I'm just not brave enough to argue with G-d concerning His Torah (I.e., "You might say that, but I'm sure You don't really mean it!), and Nu 23:19 leaves no room for doubt that I can discern. As I mentioned before, Nu 23:19 appears to be answering the cults of Mystery Religion that were prevalent, (and indeed, still are) in the Earth. In those cults, their gods impregnated a human being (often a virgin), who then gave birth to the god's son. Nu 23:19 was a profound statement concerning their belief systems. The G-d of the Hebrews was NOT like their gods. He was NOT born of a human being. He was NOT a man. Love, Pat From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In a message dated 3/5/2009 10:17:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com writes: I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". Susie>> There are various ways of understanding "one," and that's led to lots of different opinions. The first time we encounter this is in Genesis where Adam and Eve become "one." Water in a glass is one glass of water, but the water is not the glass. Similarly, G-d dwelling IN His people does not make His people G-d. In both the Tanach and the Christian writings, people are equated with being Temples for the indwelling of G-d. In the Tanach, G-d says, "Let them make Me a sanctuary and I will dwell in them" (Exodus 25:8). Both the Gospel of John (2:21) and 1 Cor. 6:19 speak of the body as a temple. John 14:10 says, "I am in the Father and the Father in me...the Father who dwells in me does His works." The basic concept here is that oneness is not sameness. Adam and Eve would have to buy two tickets to get into a movie. There's a oneness in heart and spirit that Jesus spoke of in John 17 -- a prayer in which he asked that all of his followers "...be one, even as we are one, I in them and Thou in me that they may become perfectly one." Particularly in chassidic Judaism, one could find discussions that say because G-d is everywhere and no part of creation exists without His presence and because His presence (i.e., the fullness of the meaning of "omnipresent" and G-d is One) fills all of creation, one can conclude that everything IS G-d. Yet, of course, we understand that the Creator is not the creation. So, yes, there's lots of ways to understand "One." Fortunately, Torah law defines what ways it may not be understood and what ways constitute idolatry, so that worship is directed to G-d Alone. Miriam -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/cfa35754/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 08:38:04 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 06:38:04 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Purim (this Monday night) gifts for Sderot - please help & forward! Message-ID: <855590370903060638n61f0d722y27b3159c4f0c5f57@mail.gmail.com> *Purim: Last Call For Sderot *This Sunday the 12th of Adar 5769 (March 8, 2009) B'Ahavat Yisrael staff and volunteers will converge on the Kassam plagued Southern Israeli City of Sderot. We will arrive with our vehicles full of Mishloach Manot (Shaloch Manos) gift packages to distribute to the beleaguered residents. The security situation has not improved in Sderot from last Purim. Kassam rockets and mortars keep landing daily from Hamas controlled Gaza. Children have grown up with rockets landing around them for 8 years! I can personally attest to the fact that every package and greeting received in Sderot is appreciated. I have seen their smiles and their gratitude knowing that other Jews care and feel their plight. Last year we distributed almost 2,000 packages. This year I'm sure due to the international financial crisis we're a little under 1,500 packages. It is not too late as we have made arrangements with a local wholesaler that we can add on up to an additional 1,000 packages early Sunday morning. To order by credit card via a secured server please click. All donations received after Sunday will be applied to our Passover food drive in Sderot. Wishing you all a Shabbat Shalom and a Joyous Purim, With love of Israel, Yosef Ben Tzion (Joel Busner) Director, B'Ahavat Yisrael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/6051ae48/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Mar 6 08:41:12 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:41:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <000001c99e55$88d99760$4001a8c0@Rainbow> References: <000001c99e55$88d99760$4001a8c0@Rainbow> Message-ID: <001701c99e69$99fb0790$0400a8c0@marvin> One point I was attempting to make yesterday is: when they say messiah and you say messiah and I say messiah are we all fully in agreement with the same concept and then are we on the same page, in it?s most narrow or broadest understanding. I don?t think so.! We have many view points and understandings. I have lots of questions, and this leads to answers. Make no mistake I?m still looking for answers. The Messiah concept seems to have developed more fully after the Babylonian exile, therefore is it correct to read backwards? Yes, it could be understood as revelation going forward in time, that is for each of us to decide for ourselves. The term as used in the Tanack in a literal and strict sense is for one who has been anointed with oil?. Priest , Lev. 4&6 or King. 1Sam.24, 2Sam 19 & 23 chapters. Cyrus in Isa 45 is spoken of as God?s ?Anointed?. But we have no record of him being anointed with oil, just like we have no record of Jesus being anointed with oil, and some interrupt Hab 3:13 as referring to the whole people of Israel as ?Anointed?. Later as we see in Jer 30 were a ?person? taken from the mist of the people approach unto YHVH. What is this persons title? Priest, Messiah, King or just the average citizen who becomes a noble, leader, governor among the people? I don?t know, still working on that. However, in Jer 33: we still see those promise?s that are to be forever, Priest / King linked to the Sun and the Moon, day and night. Jer 33:14 ?See, the days are coming,? declares ????, ?when I shall establish the good word which I have promised to the house of Yisra??l and to the house of Yehud?ah: Jer 33:15 ?In those days and at that time I cause a Branch of righteousness to spring forth for Dawid?. And He shall do right-ruling and righteousness in the earth. Jer 33:16 ?In those days Yehud?ah shall be saved, and Yerushalayim dwell in safety. And this is that which shall be proclaimed to her: ????? our Righteousness.? Jer 33:17 ?For thus said ????, ?For Dawid? there is not to cease a man to sit on the throne of the house of Yisra??l. Jer 33:18 ?And for the priests, the L?wites, there is not to cease a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to slaughter continually.? ? Jer 33:19 And the word of ???? came to Yirmeyahu, saying, Jer 33:20 ?Thus said ????, ?If you could break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there be not day and night in their season, Jer 33:21 then My covenant could also be broken with Dawid? My servant ? so that he shall not have a son to reign upon his throne ? and with the L?wites, the priests, My attendants. Jer 33:22 ?As the host of the heavens is not counted, nor the sand of the sea measured, so I increase the descendants of Dawid? My servant and the L?wites who attend upon Me.? ? Jer 33:23 And the word of ???? came to Yirmeyahu, saying, Jer 33:24 ?Have you not observed what these people have spoken, saying, ?The two clans which ???? has chosen have been rejected by Him?? So they have despised My people, no more to be a nation before them. Jer 33:25 ?Thus said ????, ?If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the laws of the heavens and earth, Jer 33:26 then I would also reject the descendants of Ya?aqob? and Dawid? My servant, so that I should not take of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Ab?raham, Yitsh?aq, and Ya?aqob?. For I shall turn back their captivity, and have compassion on them.? ? Unless I?m mistaken or have missed something??. Where does it say that there will be no PRIEST or KINGS for the nations? It seems that these above mention promises are to the ?descendants of Abraham? even if you ?spiritualize? who these descendants are as both Christian and Jewish writers have ( in the debates of who is a Jew, converts, people of faith) you still have the people of the nations. Below you have an example of A family and another family, Jethro?s family?? two distinct and different blood lines but both have a relationship with YHVH. Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was priest of God Most High. We also have Jethro, Moses father in law who is a priest and in Exo.18 Jethro seems to know this YHVH and YHVH seems to know Jethro and then Jethro makes sacrifice to God. Then we have to look at Psa 110. Could Messiah be both Priest and King? The Jewish concept of Messiah as I understand it is that this ?Son of David? brings peace to Israel and sets up his throne in Jerusalem?.. But you still have the nations. Who rules them, do they have a Priest? Make no mistake?.. regardless of how many offices, positions, Priests, Kings or Messiahs there are to come?? they all are servants of the most high(YHVH) nothing more, in my understanding. I wonder, if our problem in understanding is not keeping all of these positions uncoupled from the term messiah, I can be a father, I can be a son, I can be a brother, I can even be and Uncle, but I can?t be all things to all people. Shalom, Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 7:18 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" I think it is important to note, that Messiah indeed cannot hold the EARTHLY office of a High Priest. This is reserved for the descendents of Aharon. This is why Hebrews tells us about Melechzedek. This is one who was BOTh Priest and King. Messiah on earth cannot officiate at the Temple, he is bound by the rules as we all are. Do these same rules apply to a Heavenly Tabernacle??? Jeremy Ecc 12:13 This is the conclusion; when all has been heard; fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" The question that was posed was -- couldn't the Messiah also be a priest? He cannot be a priest in the classic sense of the word, "Kohane," because the Kohanim must be descended from Aaron of the Tribe of Levi, whereas the King Messiah must be descended from David and Solomon who are of the Tribe of Judah. One man cannot have two patrilineal tribal lineages, just as a man cannot be the physical son of his father as well as the physical son of his uncle (his father's brother). Judah and Levi were brothers. Miriam _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/0c8642f0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 08:47:21 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 06:47:21 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The Story of Purim Message-ID: <855590370903060647s4b88f5bfq14b988b7e9376d3b@mail.gmail.com> Shalom to all - this video is less then 2 minutes long and does a great job explaining the significance of Purim. Please watch it and share it with your friends. Click here: YouTube - The Story of Purim * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/9775670c/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 6 12:24:16 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:24:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: OBAMA PLAN FOR PEACE IN MIDDLE EAST ... SHOCKING BUT NOT SURPRISING !!!!! Message-ID: <284397.42002.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ________________________________ Subject: OBAMA PLAN FOR PEACE IN MIDDLE EAST ... SHOCKING BUT NOT SURPRISING !!!!! ? US President Barack Obama is receiving guidance on contending with Iranfrom former Congressman Lee Hamilton, who co-authored the Baker-Hamilton Iraq Study Group report published in December 2006. It appears that Obama has signed on to the Hamilton plan.... That report calls for the US to: - Coordinate the withdrawal of its forces from Iraq with Iran and Syria - the principal sponsors of both the Shiite and Sunni insurgencies in the country. -?Pressure Israel to surrender the Golan Heights and Judea to? Syria , - Pressure Israel to surrender the Samaria and Jerusalem to Hamas. - US to win Iran 's trust by accepting it as a nuclear power and pledging not to overthrow the regime. ? ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/1a609da1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 13:50:23 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:50:23 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] What doesn't the Israeli government 'get'?!?! Message-ID: <855590370903061150s49243326h7f09555365bfc135@mail.gmail.com> >From Arutz-7, Israelnationalnews.com - Please note the *red* highlighted sections...what is it that the Israeli government doesn't seem to understand?? *THEY MUST GO!* * Hanoch* ** *Tractor Terrorist: J'lem Arab *by Maayana Miskin [image: Tractor Terrorist: J'lem Arab] The Arab terrorist who attacked police officers and civilians in Jerusalem with his bulldozer on Thursday was a resident of the city, police have announced. He was identified as 26-year-old Mir'i Redeideh. Redeideh was married, police said, and had one child. He lived with his family in the neighborhood of *Beit Hanina, in the northern part of the city *. Redeideh was carrying a Palestinian Authority ID at the time of the attack, leading to initial reports that he was a resident of the PA-controlled areas in Judea and Samaria. He was shot and killed by alert police officers and a civilian taxi driver as he attempted to carry out his rampage. Before he was neutralized he managed to wound two police officers and had sent several schoolgirls into severe emotional shock. The tractor used in the attack was apparently Redeideh's personal property, police said. An open copy of the Koran was found inside. Radeideh is the *fourth Arab resident of Jerusalem to carry out an attack in the capital in less than a year*. In the summer of 2008 two attacks took place in which Arab residents of the city who were working on construction sites used bulldozers to attack Jews. In September of 2008 an *Arab teenager from Jerusalem* rammed his car into a group of soldiers and civilians standing near the Old City, wounding more than 20 people in the process. The terrorist was shot and killed. Just a few months before the 2008 bulldozer attacks, *another Arab resident of Jerusalem opened fire at young students in the Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva, murdering eight and wounding many more. * Many activists and politicians have called for the terrorists' houses to be destroyed in the hopes of deterring other potential attackers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/8f1af250/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:09:58 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:09:58 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Some JOY from the Knesset! Message-ID: <855590370903061209je86d1d6xd64d030ea880f40@mail.gmail.com> Reading this article has given me a WIDE grin....this has made my entire Shabbat! * Hanoch* [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/] Daily Israel Report Subscribe (free) Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin Radio | Live [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx] TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise Ben-Ari Gives First Speech; Arab MKs Walk Out Adar 6, 5769, 02 March 09 10:36 by by Maayana Miskin (IsraelNN.com) MK Rabbi Dr. Michael Ben-Ari gave his first speech to the Knesset on Monday. Ben-Ari discussed the economic hardship being felt by many in Israel as well as the costs of making concessions to Arab enemies. Arab MKs left the hall during his speech, leading Ben-Ari to express satisfaction at what he called *?my first great achievement in Knesset.?* Ben-Ari reminded those assembled of the suffering in Hatzor Haglilit, where workers are protesting the closure of the factory that provides many of the town's jobs. ?As we gathered here, all of us beautifully dressed, in splendid garments, in Hatzor Haglilit they wore sackclothes and ashes,? he said. The government always has excuses for the economic hardships facing Israelis, especially those outside central Israel, Ben-Ari continued. ?The crisis lies in our leadership, which does not know how to focus on the national issues facing us,? he stated. The leadership fails to address social and economic problems, he continued, choosing instead to ?run after visions of false peace, visions that have brought us blood, fire, suffering and pain... and economic damage.? He detailed the financial costs to Israel from such initiatives as the withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula, the barrier in Judea and Samaria and the expulsion of Jews from Gaza. Regarding the Judea and Samaria barrier, Ben-Ari told those assembled, ?I'll tell you a secret ? kassams and missiles can also fly over an eight-meter wall.? What Israel must do, he said, is to establish ?a national economic front.? Israel must stop chasing a peace that cannot be achieved and instead focus on developing neglected parts of the country, he said. ?This is the most burning issue... to turn the periphery, the rough neighborhoods, the Galilee, the Golan, the Negev, Judea and Samaria ? to turn all of them into 'central Israel,'? he concluded. *Arab MKs Walk Out* *As Ben-Ari began his speech, Arab MKs left the hall, leading him to quote a biblical verse, ?Those who seek to destroy you, will go out from within.?* After leaving, MK Ahmed Tibi told reporters, ?We'll treat Michael Ben-Ari, the Kahanist [follower of Rabbi Meir Kahane ? ed.], as we treated [Rabbi] Meir Kahane when he was a Member of Knesset.? MK Jamal Zahalka lamented the fact that only Arab MKs left the hall as Ben-Ari spoke, and said members of other parties should have left in protest as well. Ben-Ari expressed satisfaction at the stir caused by his speech. ?This is my first great achievement in Knesset, and I am glad to see it. If the fifth column leaves every time I speak, it's an important step, and I hope a sign of things to come.. *Soon we should merit to see them not only leaving the hall, but leaving the entire Israeli Knesset.?* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/1bef5315/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:18:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:18:59 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The clock is ticking..... Message-ID: <855590370903061218k742ee7c1w6e6802428e482c7@mail.gmail.com> *The Iran-Israel nuclear endgame is now much closer* Iranian Threat, Israel Politics - Feb 26, 2009 Edwin Black In recent days, four key developments have clicked in to edge Iran and Israel much closer to a military denouement with profound consequences for American oil that the nation is not prepared to meet. What has happened? First, Iran has proven it can successfully launch a satellite into outer space as it did on February 2. Teheran claimed, to the incredulity of Western governments, that the satellite was to monitor earthquakes and enhance communications. Few believe that, especially since America's own space program continuously launches unpublished military satellite missions. Teheran plans three more satellites this year, creating an easily weaponized space net that worries American military planners. Second, the International Atomic Energy Agency last week admitted that it had underestimated Iran's nuclear stockpile by about one-third. The watchdog group now confirms Iran possesses 2,227 lbs. of nuclear material, sufficient to create at least one nuclear bomb. That stockpile includes 1,010 kilograms of low-enriched uranium hexafluoride, or approximately 700 kilograms containing the vital uranium 235 isotope, the stuff needed to weaponize. Third, Iran has ramped up its enrichment program with thousands of new homegrown, highly advanced centrifuges. As *The Cutting Edge News *reported in April 2008, Iran wants 6,000 centrifuges to speed the enrichment of weapons-grade material. The number of working centrifuges now exceeds 5,400, including 164 new ones believed to be the faster and more efficient IR-2 and IR-3 models made in Iran. These new Iranian centrifuges are at least as sophisticated as its recently imported P-2 models. American policymakers are now convinced that Iran, despite all protests and charades, is in a mad dash to create a deliverable nuclear weapon. The Obama administration has almost openly abandoned the assertions of the CIA's much-questioned 2008 National Intelligence Estimate that concluded Iran was not pursuing nuclear weaponry for the simple reason that its atomic program and military programs were housed in separate buildings. Fourth, Binyamin Netanyahu has just become prime minister of Israel. He is determined to take action before - not after - Iran achieves its nuclear potential. This creates a volatile, hair-trigger situation that could explode at any moment. Hence, the endgame is now vastly closer than it was in mid-January, when many believed Israel might take action during the lame-duck interregnum. Israeli countermeasures to date have included a massive international covert program of equipment sabotage, assassination of key nuclear personnel and a vibrant diplomatic offensive. But all these efforts combined amount to nothing more than delaying tactics, as Iran is irrevocably determined to achieve a nuclear weapon as fast as possible. Many believe such a weapon will be used to fulfill its prediction that Israel will soon be wiped off the map. THE CONSEQUENCES for this confrontation are apocalyptic because Iran's full partner in this enterprise is Russia. The Russian company Atomstroiexport has provided most if not all of the nuclear material for the 1,000 megawatt Bushehr reactor, along with thousands of technicians to service and operate it. Following its invasion of Georgia, Moscow forged ahead with final delivery plans for the S-300 advanced air defense system which can track scores of IAF airborne intruders simultaneously, whether low-level drones or high-altitude missiles, and shoot them down. But the S-300, the linchpin of Iran's defense against Israel, will not be fully operational for several months, creating a narrow window for Israel to act. Indeed, Russia has just announced a pause in missile deliveries for the system in fear that it will accelerate an Israeli response. Iran, of course, has repeatedly threatened to counter any such attack by closing the Strait of Hormuz, as well as launching missiles against the Ras Tanura Gulf oil terminal and bombarding the indispensable Saudi oil facility at Abqaiq which is responsible for some 65 percent of Saudi production. Any one of these military options, let alone all three, would immediately shut off 40% of all seaborne oil, 18% of global oil, and some 20% of America's daily consumption. America's oil vulnerability has been back-burnered due to the economic crisis and the plunge in gasoline prices. However, the price of gasoline will not mitigate an interruption of oil flow. The price of oil does not impact its ability to flow through blocked or destroyed facilities. Indeed, an interruption would not restore prices to those of last summer - which Russian and Saudi oil officials say is needed - but probably zoom the pump cost to $20 per gallon. American oil vulnerability in recent months has escalated precisely because of oil's precipitous drop to $35 to $40 a barrel. At that price, America's number one supplier, Canada, which supplies some 2 million out of 20 million barrels of oil a day, cannot afford to produce. Canadian oil sand petroleum is not viable below $70 a barrel. Much of Canada's supply has already been cancelled or indefinitely postponed. America's strategic petroleum reserve can only keep that country moving for approximately 57 days. THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, like the Bush administration before it, has developed no plan or contingency legislation for an oil interruption, such as a surge in retrofitting America's 250 million gas guzzling cars and trucks - each with a 10-year life - or a stimulus of the alternate fuel production needed to rapidly get off oil. Ironically, Iran has undertaken such a crash program converting some 20% of its gasoline fleet yearly to compressed natural gas (CNG) as a countermeasure to Western nuclear sanctions against the Teheran regime that could completely block the flow of gasoline to Iran. Iran has no refining capability. The question of when and how this endgame will play out is not known by anyone. Israeli leaders wish to avoid military preemption at all costs if possible. But many feel the military moment must come; and when that moment does come, it will be swift, highly technologic and in the twinkling of an eye. But as one informed official quipped, "Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know." *The writer is The New York Times best-selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and the just released The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops - or the Day Before (Dialog Press). * 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/942cdbea/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:27:32 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:27:32 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunrise, over the Dead Sea Message-ID: <855590370903061227g409e4b13s4ec68bb661c4f6d9@mail.gmail.com> Sunrise, today - Erev Shabbat, at the Dead Sea; photography by Ayala Rivka Young, my favorite eldest daughter...enjoy..... Shabbat Shalom, *Hanoch* [image: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2708615&id=699766534] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/495f0265/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 15:22:06 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:22:06 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Zachor: It's Not Just Villains Message-ID: <855590370903061322w16bc9625hd0b270e3ba7c665@mail.gmail.com> Zachor: It's Not Just Villains Adar 10, 5769, 06 March 09 01:36 by by Rabbi S. Weiss (IsraelNN.com) Memory is the key to Redemption. The ability to forget can be a great *bracha*, for how could we go with our lives on if we were unable to forget our troubles and our failures? But the ability to remember is an even greater *bracha*. Memory bestows on us a glorious past, focuses our present course and defines our future destiny as a people. All our various senses are designed to trigger memory. *Chazal* (commenting on our *sedra, Tetzaveh*) tell us that the people would hear the *Kohen Gadol* approach the *Kodesh HaKodashim* on Yom Kippur (there were little bells on the hem of his robe) and they would remember the awesomeness of the day and be spurred to repent. And when they saw the sky-blue color of the * techelet* he wore, they were reminded of the blue heavens and *HaShem*'s indigo Throne of Glory. Smell, too, plays a key role in our spiritual life. The *b'samim* at * Havdalah*, the etrog on Sukkot, the Chanuka latkes, the Pesach *knaidlach* - every Jew "nose" the unique feeling we get when the right aroma arrives. This Shabbat is *parshat Zachor* - when the entire Jewish People is commanded to remember what Amalek did to us, and never to forget G-d's charge to wage an eternal fight against evil. From Haman to Antiochus to Hitler to Hamas, we Jews know that every generation has its anti-G-d, and we are eternally called to battle against *HaShem*'s enemies. So perhaps it is eminently fitting that this Shabbat marks the opening of Beit Knesset and Torah Learning Center Ohel Ari in Ra'anana (the official *Chanukat HaBayit* will come a bit later *I.Y.H.*) Our son Ari, for all his sweet gentleness, was a brave fighter against the monstrous evil of terrorism. He recognized and fully embraced his obligation to put aside the dreams of youth and take up arms as a soldier in the holy IDF. Like his namesake the lion, he sprang into action when his extended family - *Am Yisrael* - was endangered. It seems right and fitting that Ari should be remembered on *parshat Zachor*. The first time we encounter Amalek, in *parshat B'shalach*, we are told that the struggle to eradicate these vicious sadists is "an unending, Divine war, for (Amalek's) hand is on the throne of G-d." The Hebrew words *ki yad al kays Y-h* are missing three letters, signifying that *HaShem*'s very name is incomplete so long as Amalek is not indelibly purged from this world. The three missing letters are *alef* from the word *kiseh*; and *yud* and * hay* from the word *HaShem*. These are the same letters which stand for Ari's name - Ari Yehoshua Halevi. Ari, you are indeed missing and sorely missed by your family and friends. But your name, and the cause you so bravely fought for, lives on. May your memory be blessed. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/b8553b63/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Fri Mar 6 15:32:54 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 16:32:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: >>In a message dated 3/6/2009 9:22:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes: I'm not sure if we are in agreement on this thread, Miriam. You and I may well be saying the same thing here. I had assumed Susie's implied question to be, "Is Jesus G-d, and what does Torah say concerning that premise?" To me, HaShem pointedly answers this very question with Nu 23:19, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El).....or the son of a human being (u ben adam).">> I was raised catholic and converted to Judaism. So my beliefs about G-d are Jewish, i.e., G-d is not a man. I didn't have too much trouble with the trinity concept as a youngster. I saw it as three equal partners - what's the big deal? In the church, however, I remember being bothered that "the Father" was kind of ignored and everything revolved around the Son. It was as though the Father, depicted as an old man with a grey beard, retired and just kind of watched over while his son did everything. I also remember wondering why the Holy Spirit was even more ignored than the Father. What did he/it do, and why was the the third member/person? It didn't seem very equal. And if Jesus existed co-eternally with the Father, why was he a nice looking young man, almost always standing with his arms outstretched, with an old Father, always sitting, looking kind of bored and grouchy. Even that was a notch better than the mysterious, wordless dove who represented the spirit. So in the eyes of this young catholic girl in the 1950's, the G-d of Israel was an old man, a young man, and a bird. But I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it until I realized that Jews didn't believe in a trinity! That was a shocker. I felt bad because, as I was taught, the Jews were going to hell because they didn't realize Jesus was the Messiah -- but not believing in a trinity? That needed to be looked into. Moses stood before G-d face to face. Shouldn't G-d have mentioned that he was a trinity? Maybe, "Oh, by the way, there's three of Us." Weren't the Jews "the Chosen" and as G-d's special treasure, shouldn't they have known most intimately what His nature was? So my investigation led to the goings on at the Nicene Council and the Roman break with original Christianity which was entirely Jewish. I also found it quite interesting that the Christian bible shows a "hierarchy" of sorts where G-d is above everyone, including the resurrected Jesus. That doesn't correspond with the idea of co-equal and co-eternal which is part of the Church's trinity doctrine. Did spending 30-something years in the form of a man make him forever secondary in rank, assuming that he gave up some of his equality to take on flesh? I'll leave the Christians to struggle with those ideas. For me, whatever the Torah of Moses and the Hebrew Prophets after him, have to say about the One G-d who never changes suits me just fine. I'm forever grateful the Jews were around to function in their assigned role as "light to the nations" when I was mired in some pretty deep darkness. Baruch HaShem for His Torah and His people. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/564ff902/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Fri Mar 6 15:46:48 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 16:46:48 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Marvin, I'm really interested in one thing about Jesus's lineage in Matthew and Luke: how can Zerubabbel be a descendant of BOTH Solomon, the son of David, and Nathan, the son of David? If you find any commentary that tackles that, I'd enjoy seeing it. My personal opinion is that without being of the physical seed of David and Solomon, no man can become King Messiah. Interestingly, the maternal lineage of the Messiah, from Sarah's conception at an old age, and three or four extraordinary conceptions after that, a virgin birth wouldn't necessarily rule out seed being fertilized by a man of the proper lineage. Some form of artificial insemination would just be another of the five or so maternal miracles along the way. Judaism has its very own virgin birth in its legends. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/a4007867/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 6 17:07:10 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:07:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LOOOOOOOVE IT!!!!!! Terrific story, Miriam, thank you so much! I too converted to Judaism. BARUCH HASHEM FOR HIS LOVE AND MERCY TOWARD US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So glad He is gathering us "one from a city, two from a family." Shabbat Shalom, Dear One, Pat From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" >>In a message dated 3/6/2009 9:22:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes: I'm not sure if we are in agreement on this thread, Miriam. You and I may well be saying the same thing here. I had assumed Susie's implied question to be, "Is Jesus G-d, and what does Torah say concerning that premise?" To me, HaShem pointedly answers this very question with Nu 23:19, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El).....or the son of a human being (u ben adam).">> I was raised catholic and converted to Judaism. So my beliefs about G-d are Jewish, i.e., G-d is not a man. I didn't have too much trouble with the trinity concept as a youngster. I saw it as three equal partners - what's the big deal? In the church, however, I remember being bothered that "the Father" was kind of ignored and everything revolved around the Son. It was as though the Father, depicted as an old man with a grey beard, retired and just kind of watched over while his son did everything. I also remember wondering why the Holy Spirit was even more ignored than the Father. What did he/it do, and why was the the third member/person? It didn't seem very equal. And if Jesus existed co-eternally with the Father, why was he a nice looking young man, almost always standing with his arms outstretched, with an old Father, always sitting, looking kind of bored and grouchy. Even that was a notch better than the mysterious, wordless dove who represented the spirit. So in the eyes of this young catholic girl in the 1950's, the G-d of Israel was an old man, a young man, and a bird. But I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it until I realized that Jews didn't believe in a trinity! That was a shocker. I felt bad because, as I was taught, the Jews were going to hell because they didn't realize Jesus was the Messiah -- but not believing in a trinity? That needed to be looked into. Moses stood before G-d face to face. Shouldn't G-d have mentioned that he was a trinity? Maybe, "Oh, by the way, there's three of Us." Weren't the Jews "the Chosen" and as G-d's special treasure, shouldn't they have known most intimately what His nature was? So my investigation led to the goings on at the Nicene Council and the Roman break with original Christianity which was entirely Jewish. I also found it quite interesting that the Christian bible shows a "hierarchy" of sorts where G-d is above everyone, including the resurrected Jesus. That doesn't correspond with the idea of co-equal and co-eternal which is part of the Church's trinity doctrine. Did spending 30-something years in the form of a man make him forever secondary in rank, assuming that he gave up some of his equality to take on flesh? I'll leave the Christians to struggle with those ideas. For me, whatever the Torah of Moses and the Hebrew Prophets after him, have to say about the One G-d who never changes suits me just fine. I'm forever grateful the Jews were around to function in their assigned role as "light to the nations" when I was mired in some pretty deep darkness. Baruch HaShem for His Torah and His people. Miriam -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090306/108947da/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Mar 7 09:34:37 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:34:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03f001c99f3a$3e60a350$bb21e9f0$@com> Hi Miriam, I am not very good at the lineage thing, but wouldn't it be probable that the descendants of Solomon married the descendants of Nathan, thus producing offspring that would be descendants of both? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Marvin, I'm really interested in one thing about Jesus's lineage in Matthew and Luke: how can Zerubabbel be a descendant of BOTH Solomon, the son of David, and Nathan, the son of David? If you find any commentary that tackles that, I'd enjoy seeing it. My personal opinion is that without being of the physical seed of David and Solomon, no man can become King Messiah. Interestingly, the maternal lineage of the Messiah, from Sarah's conception at an old age, and three or four extraordinary conceptions after that, a virgin birth wouldn't necessarily rule out seed being fertilized by a man of the proper lineage. Some form of artificial insemination would just be another of the five or so maternal miracles along the way. Judaism has its very own virgin birth in its legends. Miriam _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/b34aee4e/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sat Mar 7 17:05:28 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:05:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Message-ID: I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (_http://www.rootsoffaith.net/_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) ) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/6308b4aa/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 7 17:15:11 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:15:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: <49B2FFFF.8040107@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/2ac15f41/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Mar 7 17:26:40 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:26:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <042001c99f7c$2cf562d0$86e02870$@com> Hi Ross, this is an awesome idea! Let us know if we can help putting this together. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Need a job? Find employment help in your area. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/70aad26c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Mar 7 17:53:15 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:53:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is truly an amazing idea...please send it to the UI List. James On Mar 7, 2009, at 6:05 PM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have > been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to > involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in > making them feel like they are part of a real community. The > Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first > thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list > and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of > what we can do with technology. > > The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was > meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. > > How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world > read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into > files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? > Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by > the people of the world, for the people of the world! > > The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am > thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's > torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from > literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - > some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), > some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some > from Europe, etc. > > Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on > this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts > from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in > orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based > upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. > > If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and > let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you > would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a > list updated (no names) so people know what is available. > > I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming > torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as > well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. > > The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will > discuss translations etc, in another message. > > I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and > so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may > want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not > let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. > > Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of > the torah with global voices? I hope so! > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > Need a job? Find employment help in your area. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/b0065fe0/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 17:57:29 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 23:57:29 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1092186150-1236470275-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-644372848-@bxe1157.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I'm in Ross. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:05:28 To: Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Mar 7 17:58:21 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:58:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was wondering if you and Brian could put up on ROF as a PROJECT a "sign up" list of all the Torah portions broken down into Aliyot so that people could then sign up for a portion that they wanted to do. That would keep you from having to respond individually to everyone who writes, tell this one or that one, that a portion has already been taken. If Brian had a way to have a chart, where we can log in to ROF and sign our name at a slot, that seems to me to really be a good way to do this. I love it! James On Mar 7, 2009, at 6:05 PM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have > been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to > involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in > making them feel like they are part of a real community. The > Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first > thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list > and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of > what we can do with technology. > > The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was > meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. > > How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world > read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into > files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? > Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by > the people of the world, for the people of the world! > > The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am > thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's > torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from > literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - > some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), > some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some > from Europe, etc. > > Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on > this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts > from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in > orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based > upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. > > If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and > let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you > would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a > list updated (no names) so people know what is available. > > I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming > torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as > well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. > > The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will > discuss translations etc, in another message. > > I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and > so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may > want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not > let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. > > Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of > the torah with global voices? I hope so! > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > Need a job? Find employment help in your area. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/a5563057/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 7 18:06:22 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:06:22 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: <49B30BFE.3000407@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/756541f8/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Sat Mar 7 18:08:01 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:08:01 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/7/2009 10:34:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ptyler at aac-usa.com writes: I am not very good at the lineage thing, but wouldn?t it be probable that the descendants of Solomon married the descendants of Nathan, thus producing offspring that would be descendants of both?>> If women were included in the tribal lineage, every Jew would be a descendant of both parents' lineage and it would just be totally scrambled. Lineage only runs through the paternal line, which is why, as I mentioned earlier, the Book of Chronicles only lists fathers and their sons. Matthew and Luke also only lists fathers and sons, since they understood the legal requirements of tribal descent. The Torah also has a discussion about inheritance, since the Land of Israel was passed along within each tribe's lineage. Women who had no brothers were required to marry within their tribe so that the land would remain in that tribal name. If women could pass along their tribal lineage, there would be no such requirement. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/b745d94d/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sat Mar 7 18:19:17 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 00:19:17 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2136165480-1236471448-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-174291444-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yes I can do this by next week. At some point tonight I will send out the aliyot for Ki Thissa to get things rolling. You can forward the original message to the UI list. I am not on line right now. Great idea by the way. Brian actually encouraged me to put a spreadsheet together with the readings. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: James Tabor Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:58:21 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah _______________________________________________ From rndavar at aol.com Sat Mar 7 18:21:12 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 00:21:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Message-ID: <139205688-1236471563-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2114973814-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I should add that I want men and women's voices! I am fairly certain that this was understood, but wanted to emphasize it. ------Original Message------ From: Ross Nichols Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue List ReplyTo: Dialogue List Sent: Mar 7, 2009 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Yes I can do this by next week. At some point tonight I will send out the aliyot for Ki Thissa to get things rolling. You can forward the original message to the UI list. I am not on line right now. Great idea by the way. Brian actually encouraged me to put a spreadsheet together with the readings. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: James Tabor Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:58:21 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 7 18:19:20 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:19:20 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah] Message-ID: <49B30F08.9060501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/1d86e3fd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:05:28 EST Size: 10788 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/1d86e3fd/attachment.eml From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Mar 7 18:45:19 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Matriliny in Ancient Israel (was "Zion Needs the Messiah") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <044a01c99f87$2a241960$7e6c4c20$@com> Hi Miriam and All, This was a short blurb I wrote about this awhile ago: Matriliny In Ancient Israel ? The Stones Cry Out In my studies I have found that royal lineage was in fact passed through the female (matriliny) as well as the male. In fact, David's lineage may have become "royal" due in part to his marriage to Michal, Saul's daughter. In "The Royal Dynasties in Ancient Israel", Tomoo Ishida writes concerning David's marriage to Michal: "When David, a promising your warrior, heard of Saul's intention to give him his daughter, he was embarrassed, because he came neither from the northern tribes nor from a family good enough to match with the royal family. Nonetheless, Saul encouraged him to take Michal to wife: it was David who was 'the most faithful among Saul's honored in the royal house'. J. Morgenstern has argued that this was a "beena-marriage", in which the lineage was transmitted on the distaff side, and so, through it, David acquired his "real and substantial claim to the successor ship to Saul". David became a member of the House of Saul through the marriage. That David demanded Michal's return from Abner as the first condition of making a treaty (II Sam. 3:13) shows that he attached importance to his marital tie with Saul's daughter in establishing his legitimate claim to be his successor." The Royal Dynasties in Ancient Israel, p 72-73 When studying the dynasties of that time, it is important also to consider the dynastic practices of the surrounding nations, since after all, Israel wanted a King "like all the nations". Tomoo Ishida continues, "The marriage can be compared to that of the general Haremhab with Mutnodjme. In the dynasties of Egypt, this Pharaoh married a princess of royal blood with the intention of bringing legitimacy to the royal throne into his House, which sprang from a commoner (1). On Ishbaal's death, he (David) had recovered his membership of the House of Saul through his Remarriage to Michal." " After...David had convinced to the people of Israel that he possessed the claim to the throne of Israel as legitimate successor to Saul, he received the visit of the elders of Israel at Hebron and got their offer of the kingship over Israel. Their offer was based on three grounds: a) the people of Israel were David's bone and flesh (II Sam. 5:1); b) David was the leader of the army of Israel under Saul; c) YHWH designated him "nagid" over Israel". All three of these criteria ensured the legitimacy of David's throne after Saul. While the offspring of David and Michal is a subject of contention, I think it is important to note the legitimacy of kingship at that time - that even when establishing the Davidic line, matriliny played an important role. (1) See C.J. Bleeker, The Position of the Queen in Ancient Egypt, in: The Sacral Kingship, Studies in the History of Religions, Suppl. To Numen 4 (1959), 266; A. Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs, 1962, 242 In the study of Matriliny, also known as Uterine Descent (sorry if this term is a bit biological), it is helpful to go back to the structure of the family in the primitive times of the Semites. The center of life was the clan, in which later studies have shown that the family played a subordinate role. The early Semites more than likely lived under a matriarchate, and kinship was determined by uterine ties, the father?s relation being almost insignificant. In the Hebrew Bible names like Leah, Rachel, Zilpah and Bilhah appear to be clan names. In the sadiqa marriages, practiced by the ancient Hebrews (indications found in the Book of Judges and particularly in the cases of Jerubaal & Samson) a woman was allowed, with compensation, to marry and leave her clan, or she might contract through her father or other male relative with a man of another clan provided she remained with her people and bore children for her clan. A.H. Keane says in Man, Past and Present, ?In the clan system descent was probably reckoned at first only through the female line; consequently uterine ties alone constituted kinship ? the father not being considered related to his own children or a member of the family.? When looking at the Semitic people, the matriarchate emerges to the forefront in society. Frequently in the Hebrew Bible, men are described as being the sons of their mothers rather than their fathers. In Genesis, Bethuel is called the ?son of Melcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham?s brother?. Joab is ?the son of Zeruiah?, and Abishai, Joab?s brother, is also called the son of Zeruiah. In II Sam. 19:23 King David refers to them both as the ?sons of Zeruiah?. Zeruiah was the daughter of Jesse of the Tribe of Judah. Consider the case of Abimelech, the son of Gideon and a Shechemite woman, who in Judges 9 is referred to as a Shechemite. In the description of the Kings of Edom in Genesis 36:39 the lineage reads, ?Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab?. When, how and why did this change? After the Babylonian captivity maternal descendent was no longer sufficient proof that a family was of the House of Israel (Ezra 2:59). Unfortunately along with the change of the system and the loss of importance of the maternal line came the loss of the status of the women in Ancient Israel. In an article in The Popular Science Monthly, Marriage Among the Ancient Israelites, we read ?The Hebrew books are stated to have been restored by Esdras, when they had been destroyed by the Chaldeans (2 Esdras, 14:21,47) and, according to Eusebius, it is solely to his recollection that we are indebted for these books of the Old Testament. Now, at that time it was necessary for a man who claimed to be of Israel to show his father?s house; Esdras was one of those who made this sine qua non. The change to this system had?..been probably gradually taking place for some generations, and what is certain is that the system of female descents had been left so far behind, that the compiler(s) of the books had not the least suspicion that it had ever existed?..that the indications of female descendants noted were preserved, was doubtless due to the superstitious regard they had for the actual words of the oral traditions?? Whether by accident or intent, the status and role of the women in the Bible and in history in general has been suppressed, covered up and erased - almost to the point of extinction. And though only a trace of their legacy remains, the voices of Miriam as an equal to Moses and Aaron, Deborah judging Israel and the prophetess Huldah being consulted by the High Priest and Mary Magdalene, Teacher and companion of Jesus the Messiah cry out from the pages of our Hebrew Bibles. For, as it is written, ?If these keep silent, the stones will cry out.? Blessings, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/ab4f2db6/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 7 19:39:25 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:39:25 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] PARASHAT TETZAVEH. Message-ID: <49B321CD.7090406@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/a6a091d5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: breastplate_stones.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 60637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/a6a091d5/attachment.jpg From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 7 19:56:00 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:56:00 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Message-ID: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/363d2688/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hamish.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/363d2688/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WhitehavenBayWhitsundayIslands.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/363d2688/attachment-0001.jpg From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:14:46 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 21:14:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thank you, Joe, for alerting us to pray concerning this new threat to your beautiful land. May HaShem show Mercy to Australia, and to us all. Am joining you in asking Him to safeguard the south east corner just north of Brisbane from this cyclone's destruction. Have appreciated reading your recent posts, and am so very glad you have been able to send them to us. To you also (Gam l'attah?) Shalom v'Ahavah, Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Shalom Chaverim, Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish. Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with 60% of our state under water. Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring 4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two words: esh- fire and mayim- water. Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness and Judgement. Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines his attributes. So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane the consequences will be dire. Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English for "Yacov" Island resorts in the Great Barrier Reef are battening down as north Queenslanders prepare for severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish which has now been upgraded to a Category 5. Tourists have been evacuated and residents are preparing for the worst. Whitehaven Bay in the Whitsunday Islands. May HaShem have mercy on us. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/e805618f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 35010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/e805618f/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 21082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/e805618f/attachment-0001.jpe From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Mar 7 20:25:58 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 21:25:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PARASHAT TETZAVEH. In-Reply-To: <49B321CD.7090406@westnet.com.au> References: <49B321CD.7090406@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <046101c99f95$396d07c0$ac471740$@com> Thanks Joe, this is so beautiful! I was reading a book about the great pyramid and it says that the Hebrew/Chaldean word for pyramid is Urim. I thought that was quite interesting. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:39 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] PARASHAT TETZAVEH. Tetzaveh : Supernatural Stones. The Choshen Mishpat -the breastplate worn by the Kohen Gadol - each gem represented one of the 12 tribes (colours above are approximations only) The First Row of Gems: Odem was a jewel as red as blood, selected for the Tribe of Reuven. It alluded to Reuven's merit. His face had reddened with shame when he admitted his sin in the incident involving Bilha. Despite the humiliation it entailed for him, he confessed his error and did teshuvah. This precious stone possessed a special power to prevent miscarriages and to promote pregnancy. It was granted to Reuven in the merit of the dudaim flowers which he brought to his mother. Pitada was a green jewel on which Shimon's name was engraved. That colour was assigned to Shimon to hint that his face turned green (pale) with shame when Zimri rebelled against Moshe. Their faces paled also when members of their tribe were seduced by Moabite girls. That gem possessed a cooling propensity, aiding a person in controlling his passionate nature. Barekes was a multi-coloured sparkling jewel which glowed like fire. (This was the precious stone which Noach used to illuminate the ark). It was given to the tribe of Levi since the members of that tribe illuminated the world with the light of their Torah study. The segula of that stone was to enlighten a person's mind and to instill wisdom in him. The Second Row Nofech was a greenish brilliant stone representing Yehuda. It was given to him as a reward that his face paled when he was challenged by Tamar, and when his father suspected him of having killed Yosef. But finally he emerged with his face shining when his father Yaakov cleared him of the suspicion in the final blessing to his sons. One who carried that jewel on him possessed the power to make the enemy retreat. Sapir was a skyblue sapphire stone for Yissachar who was famed for his Torah study. He was therefore found worthy of receiving the sapphire stone from which the luchos were made. The skyblue colour was a sign of his humility. This diamond is beneficial for a person's eyesight and is said to heal all types of physical pains. Yahalom was a white jewel bearing Zevulun's name. Its white colour represents a merchant's chair which was white. Its segula was success in business, appropriate for Zevulun, the tribe which engaged in commerce in order to support Yissachar. The Third Row Leshem, the stone of Dan, reflected the image of a person upside-down. This was a hint that the members of the tribe of Dan reversed their true goal of serving Hashem when they set up the image of Micha. Sh'vo was Naftali's precious stone. It enabled a rider to remain seated firmly on horseback without falling off. It was suitable for this tribe as the name Naftali denotes "attachment". Achlama was designated for the tribe of Gad, since this jewel strengthens a person's courage in battle and the children of Gad were famous for their skill in warfare. The Fourth Row Tarshish was Asher's gem. Its golden colour was reminiscent of the olive oil that was found in abundance in Asher's portion. Other interpretations state that its colour was sea-blue and aided in the digestion of food so that people became round and fat. It says about Asher's bread that it is fattening (Beraishis 49:20). Shoham was Yosef's diamond. It possessed the segula of causing a person to find favour in the eyes of others, even before high officials. The name Shoham contains the same letters as Hashem, to indicate that it was Hashem who granted Yosef grace in the eyes of his superiors. Yashpe was a multicoloured jewel. It was awarded to Benyamin because, after the sale of Yosef, conflicting thoughts raced through Benyamin's mind. He was uncertain whether or not he should reveal to his father Yaakov what had transpired. He controlled his urge to divulge the secret to his father and remained silent. As a reward, he received the diamond Yashpe. The name "Yashpe" is a composite of yaish peh, meaning that although Benyamin was capable of revealing word of Yosef's sale to Yakkov, he nevertheless refrained from doing so. (The Mishnah Says) Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/11959406/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 60637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/11959406/attachment.jpe From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 20:26:45 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 02:26:45 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <030820090226.2912.49B32CE4000A855A00000B6022230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> We are praying for y'all Joe. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Chaverim, Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish. Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with 60% of our state under water. Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring 4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two words: esh- fire and mayim- water. Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness and Judgement. Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines his attributes. So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane the consequences will be dire. Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English for "Yacov" Island resorts in the Great Barrier Reef are battening down as north Queenslanders prepare for severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish which has now been upgraded to a Category 5. Tourists have been evacuated and residents are preparing for the worst. Whitehaven Bay in the Whitsunday Islands. May HaShem have mercy on us. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 21082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/274a211e/attachment-0001.jpe From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:33:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:33:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss In-Reply-To: <855590370903030148j4ada298ctef6b0fa73da41a24@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903010224t430c1adbvd70128f4b4f3540d@mail.gmail.com> <855590370903030148j4ada298ctef6b0fa73da41a24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370903071833w6dfcf4fcw5990a7bc3399628d@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ron, Shavua tov, thanks for your patience in my getting back to you; getting to Montana turned out to be quite a challenge. I have listed your comments below (*in Blue)* my response is below each comment, or question. *Your comments in this article leave me with a question. When some group of Jews proclaim Rabbi Schneerson as the Messiah do all the rest of the Jews lump these in to a group that can not be trusted and should be removed, like the Christian Missionaries? * ** ** The *only* group of Jews that have a belief that Rav Schneerson, of Blessed Memory is/will be the Messiah are among the Lubavitch (Chabad). There are indeed those within the Orthodox community that feel that Chabad is believing in something controversial (see: *The Rebbe, The Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference *by David Berger), You used the terminology, *"...should be removed, like the Christian missionaries?"* *'Removed' * from what? *'Removed' from Israel*? Is that what you mean? Why on Earth would Israel (the State of), treat a group of Jews (*any *group of Jews) like Christian missionaries? Israel, is a Jewish country (not Jewish enough in my opinion..but that's off the topic). Proselytizing by Christian missionaries is against the law (in Israel), and those caught are expelled from Israel and not allowed to return; ever. They are not expelled for their personal beliefs, but for their attempts to convert Jews. * Help me understand your objection or the Jews objection to the songs of Ephramites. * ** There was no objection on the part of "the Jews" - since I was speaking based my experience with the WBZ (World Biblical Zionist) Tour group. This was a group that stated SPECIFICALLY that it was designed to include ALL who supported Israel, including Ephramites, Jews, Christians, B'nei Noah, etc). It's '10 Commandments of a Biblical Zionist' were VERY specific that it was designed to be an umbrella organization, to serve all individuals - of all religions and beliefs, as long as they agreed with those '10 Commandments of a Biblical Zionist.' Interestingly enough, those '10 Commandments' have been removed from their website, possibly because they had been written by Eddie Chumney, who no longer has any affiliation at ALL with that organization. Eddie himself, told me that he wrote them in such a way, as to include EVERYONE, and not 'step on anyone's toes.' So, THAT is why I was surprised with the songs with lyrics like 'Yeshua HaMashiach.' Once again, Israel is a Jewish country (whether any particular self-identified Ephramite likes it, or not), and you don't 'make friends and influence people' when publicly proclaiming it IN Israel. It was at that point that I disassociated myself from any involvement with the WBZ (that and their 'backroom politics' with the Likud party). * Have you ever heard these type of songs at other Ephimite gatherings, like the one you and I were at in a school in Yerushalaim?* ** There is a HUGE difference between people at an Ephramite prayer gathering held at the Anglican School in Jerusalem singing songs like that, and an 'All-Inclusive' umbrella organization. When I was there (at Ephraim Frank's meetings), I was an invited guest, and did not voice, or feel anything about any songs they sang. OR, when I was invited to the MIA (Messianic Israel Alliance) National Convention - I was a guest at a Messianic Ephramite gathering. The WBZ tour was supposed to be all inclusive....it was NOT supposed to be a Messianic Ephramite gathering. * It seems to me that the expectation is that Ephraim should come in with out their beliefs and practices. Is that what you are propossing?* ** *"Come in"* where, or, to what? Can I assume you mean Israel? If you mean as tourists to Israel, there is NO issue, as long as they don't proselytize Jews. If you mean as CITIZENS (New Immigrants) to Israel - there is currently no provision for that at this time - you surely know that. In fact, the Israeli government is currently looking into it's immigration and conversion criteria. Frankly, it will make it more difficult for people to immigrate to Israel and become citizens. . What it will 'look like' religiously when Judah & Ephraim are eventually reunited (as promised in the Tanach) is anyone's guess (or belief..). However that is something that we, plain human beings are NOT going to resolve for ourselves. We need to spend the time and effort to get to know each other, and work together on projects for Israel. We need to focus on that which we have in common, not what divides us.. * May be I am missing something. * If you need any further clarification of anything I wrote, please ask - I'll do it gladly . On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 2:48 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey Ron, > > Glad that you've found the articles of interest. You asked a number > of questions that will help make it even MORE interesting, at least in my > opinion. And I'd love to clarify for you everything I wrote. > > However, it's 4:39AM though, and I'm waiting for a car service to > take me to the airport. Actually, I'll be in Montana until Thursday, having > been invited by a group of leaders of Ephramite groups to join them in their > discussions regarding Israel. > > Although I cannot promise to write a detailed reply until after > Shabbat, G-d willing I will get it done before the weekend is over. Got > snowed in yesterday, hope I can actually leave this morning... > > Take care, > *Hanoch > * > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Ron Runyon wrote: > >> Shalom Hanoch, >> >> >> >> I am very interested in this thread and the articles you are posting. >> Thank you. >> >> >> >> Your comments in this article leave me with a question. When some group of >> Jews proclaim Rabbi Schneerson as the Messiah do all the rest of the Jews >> lump these in to a group that can not be trusted and should be removed, like >> the Christian Missionaries? >> >> >> >> Help me understand your objection or the Jews objection to the songs of >> Ephramites. >> >> >> >> Have you ever heard these type of songs at other Ephimite gatherings, >> like the one you and I were at in a school in Yerushalaim? >> >> >> >> It seems to me that the expectation is that Ephraim should come in with >> out their beliefs and practices. Is that what you are propossing? >> >> >> >> May be I am missing something. >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Hanoch Young [mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:24 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] That interesting article we're going to discuss >> >> >> >> Shalom John, >> >> >> >> Boker tov in Louisiana! The two excerpts below, from story's from >> today's Arutz-7 illustrate elements related to those two articles (one that >> you posted, and one that I did) relating to changing residency & >> citizenship (as well as conversion) requirements. I have interspersed my >> comments in *RED*.... >> >> >> >> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your original note....if we >> wait for others to jump in first, we may be here a very, very long >> time...LOL >> >> >> >> * Hanoch* >> >> *Israel**'s 2 State Solution - Yehuda & Ephraim* >> *Outreach Rabbi Singer to Challenge Missionary Aggression * >> >> Adar 4, 5769, 28 February 09 08:15 >> >> by by IsraelNN Staff >> >> (IsraelNN.com) The *Outreach Judaism* organization has announced that it >> is launching an exhaustive four-part lecture series in Jerusalem to respond >> directly to missionaries who engage in Jewish evangelism. The campaign is in >> an effort to combat a disturbing assault by fundamentalist Christians who >> target Jews for conversion. >> >> * It continues to astound me - there truly is no willingness, >> whatsoever, to allow beliefs other then their personal Christian ones. As >> John Hulley once said, they're in Israel and when giving Jewish children >> candy, they just HAVE to tell them that Jesus loves them....* >> >> Outreach Judaism is an international organization dedicated to countering >> the efforts of fundamentalist groups and cults who specifically target Jews >> for conversion. >> >> The series entitled *Judaism?s Response to Christian Missionaries* will >> be the first course run in Jerusalem by Outreach Judaismfounder and director Rabbi Tovia Singer, who moved to Israel last year from >> the United States. >> >> In the current series, Rabbi Singer, a world-renowned expert on Jewish >> evangelism, said he will respond to fundamentalist Christian groups who >> try to lure vulnerable Jews into their ranks, by exploring the "dark >> history" of the groups. He intends to expose the aggressive techniques used >> by organizations like Jews for Jesus that spend millions of dollars annually >> to ?bring the message of the Gospel to the Jewish people.? >> >> Rabbi Singer said he will also demonstrate how missionaries twist the >> Jewish scriptures in order to make the sacred Hebrew texts appear as though >> they are speaking about Jesus. >> >> ?Jews for Jesus and other well-funded missionary organizations have >> launched a deceptive campaign to convert the most vulnerable segments of our >> community to their extremist brand of Christianity,? said Singer, who also >> hosts his own talk show on *Israel National Radio >> *. >> >> ?In their unrelenting spiritual assault on Jewish communities worldwide, >> these aggressive organizations, backed by major evangelical churches >> worldwide, deliberately blur the distinctions between Judaism and >> Christianity in order to lure susceptible Jews who would otherwise resist a >> straightforward Christian message,? he added. >> >> *This is bound to work against Ephramite believers in Yeshua who are >> willing to keep their personal beliefs to themselves, because they will be >> 'lumped together' in everyone's minds, that they are missionaries! >> Remember, Israeli's are hearing this Ephramite message for the first time - >> if they start hearing songs that Yeshua is the Messiah (like were sung on >> the World Biblical Zionist Tour/Program), they are simply going to think" >> CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY!* >> >> *Immigration Authorities Raid Dead Sea Hotels* >> >> Adar 5, 5769, 01 March 09 08:56 >> >> by by Hana Levi Julian >> >> (IsraelNN.com) Immigration police rounded up dozens of illegal Sudanese >> workers in a massive raid along the hotel strip at the southern tip of the >> Dead Sea at daybreak Sunday. >> >> Police were present to stop the first bus of workers from leaving at 5:30 >> a.m., said one hotel worker, who requested anonymity because she was not >> authorized to speak to the media. Police also stopped every other employee >> transport that followed, and raided every hotel along the strip, which >> serves hundreds of thousands of tourists every year. >> >> *Israel has had immigration raids periodically, to catch foreign workers >> who had been brought in (to replace the arab labor) and had stayed >> illegally. However, if this is a trend - that they are NOW really serious >> about making sure that those without appropriate visas are expelled (and not >> allowed to come back, BTW), then I know a number of Ephramites who are going >> to be very disappointed....* >> >> The worker noted that about 70 Eritreans work in the hotel where she is >> employed and that ?only the ones that are here illegally were picked up.? >> There are more than a dozen hotels on the strip at the Dead Sea alone. >> >> Hundreds of refugees from the Sudan who infiltrated in to the country from >> Egypt in the past year had been hired ?off the books? by the hotels at the >> Dead Sea, said the source. >> >> ?They even took Ethiopians off the bus to check their documents,? she >> said. ?They can?t seem to tell the difference.? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/a2e81b25/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Sat Mar 7 20:39:48 2009 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:39:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Need a job? Find employment help in your area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/ca619019/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sat Mar 7 20:51:30 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:51:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> Message-ID: <8CB6DAFEAB00709-628-BC9@FWM-D26.sysops.aol.com> Sherry, I cannot wait to see you guys! I am at the synagogue tonight about to prepare my notes for tomorrow's class. I miss all of you and cannot wait to teach! Shalom, Ross -----Original Message----- From: sherry cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry? ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I?want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. ? The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. ? How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record?portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! ? The obvious question is how do we pull this off.? Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. ? Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. ? If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. ? I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. ? The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. ? I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. ? Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! ? Shalom, Ross ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ Sherry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/95fd40a4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:01:50 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Faith in G-d and Samson Weapons" Message-ID: <855590370903071901r1f44f830gdea53d48ef93ba63@mail.gmail.com> ?K A H A N E? The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea *Nissan -5737 April-1977* *FAITH IN G-D AND SAMSON WEAPONS* The men of little faith fear Washington far more than the All Mighty. The descendants of the Jews who turned in fear and prostration to Egypt to save them from Assyria and who turned as some beggar standing in a doorway to Assyria for succor from Babylon, today raise their eyes unto Washington and from Plains, Georgia shall come their salvation? The key to the Jewish redemption lies in the deep and abiding faith in G-d that is as strong as the situation is bleak. In the face of darkness and danger, the Jew trusts all the more in the All Mighty and the threats of finite flesh and blood fade into insignificance if trust in the infinite King of the Universe is real and unbending. ?Israel, trust in the L-rd,? is more than a topic for a temple rabbi?s sermon. It is the foundation of Judaism, that upon which rest all the 613 commandments. ?And the righteous shall live by his faith.? What does a Jew do when the United States attempts to strangle Israel by demanding betrayal of the land to the Arabs or risk losing American weapons and support? He first prays to the All Mighty and affirms his faith in Him. He vows not to violate the commandment that forbids giving up Jewish land. He realizes that retreat is insanity and that it will lead not to peace but to disaster. He knows that each bowing to Washington will lead only to more demands. And so he prays and has faith. And then he turns and says: *You have the choice of selling us conventional weapons (and what a ludicrous term that is and when did cluster bombs and missiles and napaim become ?conventional??) or not. But know that if you do not, we will develop and if need be use the unconventional nuclear, chemical and biological weapons that can destroy not only Arabs but their Soviet allies. *And then he opens the New York Times and Washington Post of March 21 and reads: ?The Pentagon is quietly upgrading its ability to wage war with nerve gas, a weapon that can cause agonizing death from spasms and convulsions if only a drop or two gets on a person?s skin. The reason is a growth in the Soviet Union?s chemical warfare capability? ?We underestimated the threat and it got us into trouble,? said a chemical warfare expert.? And the same day the times quotes Dr. Alexander Langmuir, the former top civilian epidemiologist as saying that he devoted one fifth of his time to military biological warfare studies ?because he regarded biological warfare as a serious threat to the United States.? The United States is permitted to develop biological and chemical weapons because it is threatened. *Israel is not?* The United States is allowed to have an atomic arsenal that is awesome and can destroy the world many times over, because of fear of the Soviets? Israel ? threatened daily with extinction by the Arabs ? can do no less. Faith in G-d and fear of neither enemies nor allies. *That is the Jewish way. * * * *Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be, please contact me at:* *barhow at netvision.net.il * * * *Visit my blog for previously e-mailed Rav Kahane writings:*** *http:/www.barbaraginsberg.blogspot.com*** * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/5dc91f42/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 21:27:10 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 03:27:10 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: <49B2FFFF.8040107@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <030820090327.2688.49B33B0A0009160900000A8022230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, This is a very clear and concise article, I have come to realize much of what is said here in my own studies. I do have some contentions with it though; It doesn't address the prophetic statement regarding a virgin birth associated with mashiach (Isaiah 7:14). I bring this up not to contest the conclusions but because the proponents of the virgin birth validity see this passage as confirmation. I think it must be discussed. I don't think it necessarily excludes Yeshua from messiah-ship, the whole issue of "dual messiah" (messiah ben Judah, messiah ben Joseph) is not discussed. While there is no doubt (to me anyway) that the "Christian" description of messiah as defined here cannot be accepted by anyone claiming to be Jewish, the Ebionite description still remains valid, Just because pagan influence hijacked the movement known as the Way, does not mean what Yeshua taught was nullified. I don't agree that Yeshua denied being messiah, I think that is exactly what he claimed to be. This was not an unusual thing in his time, the important thing to realize is that he never claimed to be divine, there is a big difference. Neither Hebrew nor Jewish understanding describes mashiach as divine. So, I guess that while I agree with much of the logic by which the conclusions were reached, I disagree with the conclusions themselves. BTW, have you guys read James Tabor's account of Yeshua's lineage in The Jesus Dynasty? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Chaverim, My apologies for my prolonged absence. Due to personal circumstances my postings will be sporadic for the time being. B'Ezrat HaShem this will only be temporary. First and foremost I would like to welcome Miriam to the list. I share your Catholic background being Italian by birth. I also share your quest for the truth. Shalom and welcome. There has been much traffic regarding the topic of Mashiach and his lineage. I would like to add some comments from an article that a personal friend of mine wrote here on the Gold Coast. She is Italian with a Catholic background and has converted to Orthodox Judaism. She has a degree in Religious Studies . My apologies for the long post. However the issues raised are quite challenging. Luke and Matthew Both Luke and Matthew?s accounts were written around 85 C.E., and are believed by Church historians to be copies of Mark?s account. Luke and Matthew give the only two accounts of a Virgin Birth in the entire New Testament. They obviously didn?t copy Mark?s account very well, or maybe the translators didn?t copy Mark?s account very well. Luke and Matthew also give accounts of Yeshua?s genealogy. However, Luke?s version is contradictory to Matthew?s (or vice versa). Some of the names are completely different and in regards to Zerubbabel, Matthew makes Zerubbabel a descendant of Solomon, David's son. Luke, however, makes him a descendant of Nathan, also a son of David. Since Solomon and Nathan were brothers (I Chronicles 3:5) they cannot both be paternal ancestors of Zerubbabel. Besides this, since both Matthew and Luke then go on to claim that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by Joseph, both genealogies (which are Joseph?s) become pointless, making the entire genealogy accounts a waste of time and space. OTHER GOSPELS As mentioned earlier, there were many ?gospels? in circulation in the 1st and 2nd centuries C.E. These are called the ?Apocryphal Gospels? that the Catholic Church did not include in the New Testament. In total, there are more than one hundred. These ancient writings include the Lost Letter of St. Paul, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Barnabas, Pseudo Matthew and the so called Lost Gospels of the Hebrews, Ebionites and Nazarenes. Of these ?Lost Gospels?, one of the most interesting and much discussed by the Church Fathers is the Gospel of the Ebionites or the ?Hebrew Gospel?. The early Christian communities occasionally accepted some Apocryphal gospels as canonical. Today?s scholars believe that while some of these writings may include actual words and events from Yeshua?s life, many lack real historical value. Let?s take a look now at the Ebionite Sect and their ?Hebrew Gospel?. The Ebionites The original Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of Jewish followers of John the Immerser, and later of Yeshua of Nazareth. They were concentrated in Israel and surrounding regions between the years 30-80 C.E. and led by Ya?akov ha-Tzaddik (James the Just), brother of Yeshua. The Ebionites were zealous for the Torah, and continued to walk in all the mitzvot (commandments) as enlightened by their Rabbi and teacher. Yeshua referred to his own disciples as ?Evyonim? (Ebionites), meaning ?poor ones?. In his ?Sermon on the Mount?, Yeshua began with the words: ?And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said, ?Blessed are you poor (Evyonim), for the kingdom of God is yours.?? 111 Was Yeshua making a reference to the Ebionites and not necessarily, as the Church would have all believe, to the economically disadvantaged? Like Yeshua, the Ebionites? main focus was to bring the ?lost sheep of the house of Israel? back to the Torah, although they did also accept Gentiles who wished to convert to the Jewish faith. The Ebionites were sometimes given the name Netzarim, from the Hebrew word Netzer (branch) and not necessarily taken from the word ?Nazareth? where Yeshua spent his childhood years. In the book of Acts of the Apostles 24:5, Paul is called ?the ringleader of the sect of the Netzarim.? In around 100 C.E. when Hellenised Jews and Gentile converts began developing a breakaway group, later becoming ?Christianity?, the Ebionites became frowned upon because of their strict adherence to the Torah. In the 3rd century C.E., when Christianity became the official religion of the now Holy Roman Empire, Church leaders began to refer to the Ebionites as ?heretics Why Were the Ebionites Considered ?Heretics?? Let?s take a look at what the Church Fathers wrote concerning the ?heresy? of the Ebionites. Eusebius wrote: "But the heresy of the Ebionites, as it is called, asserts that Christ was the son of Joseph and Mary, considering him a mere man, and insists strongly on keeping the law in a Jewish manner, as we have seen already in this history.? 112 Irenaeus (120-200 C.E.), is probably the earliest witness to the Ebionites. He reported that the Ebionites used only Matthew?s Gospel, but also that they denied the virgin birth. This means that they must have been using their own Gospel and not Canonical Matthew (the one in the New Testament), which clearly attests to this belief. 113 Irenaeus concluded that the Ebionites regarded Yeshua as the Messiah but that they insisted he was neither divine nor born of a virgin. He wrote: ?The Ebionites assert that he was begotten by Joseph.114 Jesus is a mere man, and nothing more than a descendant of David, and not also the Son of God (born of a virgin).? 115 In the text ?Fragments From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus?, we read: ?The Gospel according to Matthew was written to the Jews. For they laid particular stress upon the fact that Christ should be of the seed of David. Matthew also, who had a still greater desire to establish this point, took particular pains to afford them convincing proof that Christ is of the seed of David; and therefore he commences with an account of His genealogy.? 116 If Messiah ?should be of the seed of David?, then this implies that he cannot be born of a virgin. In his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, the Christian theologian, Justin Martyr (100-165 C.E.) conceded that some of his co-religionists rejected the divine fathering and virgin birth of Yeshua because they sounded too much like pagan myth. Justin referred to the myth of Danae, who was impregnated by Zeus: "It is quite true that some people of our kind acknowledge him to be Christ, but at the same time declare him to have been a man of men. I, however, cannot agree with them, and will not do so, even if the majority of Nazarenes insist on this opinion." 117 Therefore, the idea of the Virgin Birth was not accepted everywhere. The majority of Nazarenes, as Justin Martyr stated, regarded it as a pagan intrusion into their religion ? Judaism. It seems that the Ebionites were making significant numbers of converts to Judaism from among the Gentiles. Jerome voiced his concern in a letter to Augustine: ?To Augustin, My Lord Truly Holy, and Most Blessed Father, Jerome Sends greeting in Christ. If, however, there is for us no alternative but to receive the Jews (Ebionites) into the Church, along with the usages prescribed by their law; if, in short, it shall be declared lawful for them to continue in the Churches of Christ what they have been accustomed to practise in the synagogues of Satan, I will tell you my opinion of the matter: they will not become Christians, but they will make us Jews.? 118 112 Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Book VI, Chapter XVII (4th century) 113 R. J. Miller, Editor, The Complete Gospels. 114 Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter XXI, 1 115 On the Flesh of the Messiah, Chapter XIV, 4. Parenthesis mine. 116 Fragments From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus 117 Italics mine. 118 Augustine?s Letters XXVIII, XL & LXXI. Ch 1V The Gospel of the Ebionites The documents of the Early Church Fathers tell us that there was a very early version of Matthew, called ?Hebrew Matthew? or the ?Hebrew Gospel?, which was used by the Ebionites. Concerning the Ebionite Gospel, Jerome wrote: ?In the Gospel which the Nazareans and the Ebionites use, which we recently translated out of the Hebrew tongue into the Greek and which is called by most people the authentic (Gospel) of Matthew ?? 119 Iranaeus wrote: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.? 120 Papias (70-160 C.E ) wrote: ?Matthew composed his history in the Hebrew language and everyone translated it as he was able.? 121 There are some major differences between this ?authentic? Gospel of Matthew referred to by Jerome, and Canonized Matthew, that is also attributed to Jerome. The major difference being that Jerome?s ?authentic? Matthew does not contain an account of the Virgin Birth. So, if the ?authentic? Gospel had no Virgin Birth account, how authentic is the version in the New Testament? Another problem is that a contemporary of Jerome, Epiphanius of Salamis (315-403 C.E.), had a completely different view of the Ebionite Gospel, regarding it ?mutilated? and ?a forgery? because it did not contain the Virgin Birth account, but rather begins with John immersing in the Jordan. In the Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Epiphanius wrote: ?In the Gospel that is in general use among them which is called ?according to Matthew?, which however is not whole and complete but forged and mutilated? and the beginning of their Gospel runs: ?It came to pass in the days of Herod the king of Judaea, when Caiaphas was high priest, that there came one, John by name, and baptised with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan. It was said of him that he was of the lineage of Aaron the priest, a son of Zacharias and Elisabeth: and all went out to him.?? 122 If this ?authentic? Hebrew Matthew of the original disciples of Yeshua is so very different from Canonized Matthew, what happened? It is important that we realize that the Christian religion was not founded on doctrine formulated in a book. It formed its own doctrine as it grew. We can only conclude, therefore, that passages and words were interpolated or mistranslated (intentionally or unintentionally) in order to clarify Church doctrine ? a response to the practical needs of the Christian Church. 119 Jerome Commentary on Matthew 120 Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1 121 Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica (HE) 3.39.16 122 Epiphanius, Panarion 30.13.6 INTERPOLATION To ?interpolate? means to make insertions for the purpose of giving a certain impression. The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary defines ?interpolation? as ?making insertions in (book etc), so as to give false impressions; to insert words. 123 The more closely we examine the two Gospels of Matthew and Luke the more surprising it appears, not that the Virgin Birth story was rejected by so many sects of early followers of Yeshua, but that it was ever accepted by any of them. After the first two chapters in each Gospel account, there is never a single word of reference to the Virgin Birth. The contradictions involved in a Gospel story that frequently refers to Joseph as the father of Yeshua, and yet begins with the Virgin Birth episode, can be accounted for only by assuming that the original Gospels did not contain the earlier chapters of our present Gospels, or they were interpolated (added to). Martin Larson in his book Essene, (p 175 writes): ?The first two chapters of Matthew and the first three chapters of Luke were added in the second century by Hellenizers who would accept only a divinely born ?saviour-god? like those of the pagan mystery-cults.? A commonly known example of interpolation in the New Testament is in 1 John 5:7. It states: ?And there are three which bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and these three are one.? This verse only appears in the Catholic Doue Bible (Latin Vulgate) and in the King James Version that was translated from the Latin Vulgate. You will not find this verse in any other translations of the New Testament. Bible scholars tell us that this verse was added in order to clarify Church doctrine - the doctrine of the Trinity of course. There is enough evidence in certain styles of writing found in the New Testament to show that there is a strong Jewish input. However, the mere fact that the New Testament was not translated and compiled by Jewish authorities renders it un-authorative for Jews. It is a Christian sacred text, not a Jewish one. Jews who treat the New Testament as authoritive in matters of faith and law are using the sacred text of another religion, a religion that has no connection to the historical Yeshua of Nazareth and his disciples 123 The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English. Edited by G. W. Turner, 1987. ON THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR MORE WITNESSES The Torah states that a matter is established by the testimony of two or more witnesses. Although the Virgin Birth account appears in two of the Canonized Gospels, there are no human witnesses to this event. The Tanakh tells us that God does nothing without first revealing His plan to the right authorities: ?Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.? 124 Yet, in the ?Virgin Birth? scenario, the angel Gavriel makes the announcement to Mary on her own and then to Joseph in a dream ? not to the Jewish authorities and not even to Mary?s parents. Nobody seems to know about this incredible event, including Yeshua himself. And no one wrote about it except Matthew and Luke, the latter of which was not even one of Yeshua?s disciples. Under Jewish Law, the only admissible testimony is that of witnesses. It is a commandment for a Beth Din (Jewish Court of Law) to thoroughly examine and cross-examine witnesses so as to get to the root of a matter. But in this case, there are no witnesses, however there is a ?matter?: a pregnant Jewish maiden and her betrothed who doesn?t claim that the child is his. An event such as a ?Virgin Birth? has no precedent in Jewish history. In addition, most Jews would have been familiar with the virgin birth myths of the pagan religions that are as old as Judaism. This is, therefore, a very delicate situation, as in the eyes of the community Mary could have been suspected of immorality (sotah). God would not subject a young, betrothed maiden to such a situation. 124 Amos 3:7 Yeshua and his Parents Nowhere is it recorded that Yeshua himself made claim to a supernatural origin, unless his reference to his ?Heavenly Father? be strained to imply such a claim. However, this is unlikely, as all Jews refer to God as Avinu ? our Father. Neither do Mary and Joseph seem to remember that Mary allegedly conceived of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of Luke tells the story where twelve-year-old Yeshua could not be found for three days. When his parents finally found him in the Temple, Mary said to Yeshua, "Behold your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." Yeshua replied, '"How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father?s house?" We are told that Mary and Joseph "did not understand the words which he said to them." 131 Now, if Mary and Joseph knew that Yeshua was conceived by the ?seed? of God, and that God was the ?father?, then why was Yeshua's statement so strange that they did not understand it? 131 Luke 2:43-50 THE ?SEED? ? TRIBAL LINEAGE AND ANCESTRY Way back in the book of Genesis (Bereshit), God declared to the serpent, representing the adversary, ?And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.? 134 Women do not have ?seed?; therefore this passage is not referring to physical gender, but to THE Woman ? Israel. Through the ?seed? of Israel, the Mashiach would come, who would crush the adversaries of Israel. The seed of the woman, Israel, is passed down through the Patriarchs ? the males: ?And they took their cattle, and their goods, which they had gained in the land of Canaan, and came to Egypt, Jacob, and all his seed with him; His sons, and his grandsons with him, his daughters, and his sons? daughters, and all his seed brought he with him to Egypt.? 135 In his Letter to the Romans, Paul wrote concerning Israel: ?Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Messiah?? 136 Tribal Lineage Women have no bearing on tribal lineage. The ?seed? are the descendants of the male. The only way for a man to qualify as the Mashiach is to be a physical descendent from the line of Judah. The book of Chronicles makes this clear: "And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your SEED after you, who will be of your SONS; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever." 137 This passage clarifies the following: ? It is talking about the Anointed One - the Mashiach Ben David. ? This Mashiach will come from the line of David. ? This Mashiach will come from David's SEED, according to the flesh. ? This Mashiach will build his Father?s house ? the Temple. The New Testament book of ?Acts of the Apostles? echoes this prophecy given to King David, in saying: "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the FRUIT OF HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, He would raise up the Anointed One to sit on his throne." 138 Thus, the Mashiach would come from the fruit of David's body (the tribe of Judah), according to the flesh. Ancestry According to the Torah and Jewish Law, genealogy is reckoned from the father?s ancestry. The father gives the ?tribal affiliation? and the mother gives one the ?Jewish soul?. Jewish tradition states that a person is a Jew if his or her mother is a Jew. A person cannot contest who his mother is. However, this is not ?genealogy? or ?lineage?, as these are only determined by the father. This principle is clear in the Tanakh. The children always received the tribal inheritance of the father, not the mother. For example, in Exodus chapter 6, the High Priest, Aaron, from the tribe of Levi, married Elisheva, from the tribe of Judah. However, Aaron?s children were raised Levites, not Judahites. Let?s take a look at what the Tanakh says concerning the lineage and ancestry of the Mashiach. ? Mashiach is to be of the line of Judah: ?The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler?s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.? 139 ? Mashiach is to be from the House of David: ?The days are coming,? declares the LORD, ?when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his day Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.?? 140 Thus, it is not enough for the Mashiach to be a Jew - he must be of the line of Judah. He cannot be a Levite, Cohen or convert to Judaism. Yeshua?s Genealogy The first chapter and opening verse of Matthew states: "The book of the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers? Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.? If this genealogy was in existence before the Virgin Birth story was thought of, then, assuming the latter is true, the genealogy is worthless. If Yeshua was the product of a ?Virgin Birth?, why are the genealogy accounts in Matthew and Luke those of Joseph? This is an irrelevancy if Joseph had not impregnated his wife. Unless Joseph was the father of Yeshua, there could be no object in tracing the pedigree of Joseph; and if Joseph was the father of Yeshua, the Virgin Birth story is not true. Possibly the original idea was to trace Yeshua's lineage through Joseph to David in an attempt to fulfil messianic prophecy. Then the idea of making Yeshua ?divine? through a ?Virgin Birth? arose and was interpolated into the text, spoiling the object of the genealogy. 134 Genesis 3:15 135 Genesis 46: 6,7 (Italics mine). 136 Romans 9:4,5 137 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 138 Acts 2:30 139 Genesis 49:10 140 Jeremiah 23:5,6 What About Adoption? Some Christian denominations teach that Yeshua was adopted by Joseph and thus inherited Joseph?s lineage through adoption. The emphasis on bloodlines has serious consequences for adoption in Jewish law. For example, the status of the birth mother as Jew or Gentile at the moment of birth establishes the identity of the child as Jewish or Gentile. If the mother is Jewish, then the father's tribal status decides the child's tribe. If the child were adopted, the child?s tribal status would still be determined according to his biological father. But what if the father is unknown? If the birth father is a Gentile or unknown, the adopted child is considered a ?Yisrael? ? part of the community of Israel, but of no specific lineage. The status of the adoptive father does not affect the adopted child. 141 Adoption, which is a legal procedure, does not allow one to inherit genealogical inheritances. If Yeshua was not a product of Joseph?s seed, then according to Jewish law, Joseph could be a caretaker father, but could not pass on to Yeshua the Judahite tribal lineage. Therefore, this means Yeshua had unknown tribal lineage. Two scenarios with which this situation can be compared are: ? A case of rape. If a Jewish woman is raped, the child would be considered a ?Yisrael?, but of no specific lineage. ? Artificial insemination. The case of a woman becoming pregnant and not being able to give the name of the biological father could be compared with a ?donor sperm? scenario. The idea of using donor sperm has not been accepted by many Rabbis. While the use of donor sperm is not considered adultery (since sexual relations are not involved), it is still strongly discouraged. Rabbinic sources generally agree that paternity is determined by who provides the sperm, so that a baby conceived from donor sperm would not, halachically, be considered the child of the infertile husband. 142 According to the ?Virgin Birth? scenario, God Himself is the father. But because God is not a man that He should have sperm, nor is He of any specific tribe, this would still leave the child without tribal lineage. 141 Jewish Law: Examining Halacha, Jewish Issues & Secular Law - http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/maternity5.html 142 Assisted Reproduction and Judaism, by Miryam Z. Wahrman, Ph.D. THE ACCOUNT ITSELF We should now take a closer look at the ?Virgin Birth? account itself. I will quote the passages as they are written in the New International Version of the New Testament. ? Luke 1:26-35 ?In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin?s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, ?Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you.? Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, ?Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.? ?How will this be,? Mary asked the angel, ?since I am a virgin?? The angel answered, ?The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.?? ? Matthew 1:1-25 ?This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ?Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.? All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet: ?The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel? ? which means, ?God with us.? When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.? There are several problems with these passages, other than the ones already discussed The Canonical Luke Account The two main points in question in the Canonical Luke account are: ? ?The angel said to her, ?Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus? ?How will this be,? Mary asked the angel, ?since I am a virgin??? ? ?He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.? In the first passage, the angel tells Mary that she will be (future tense) with child. This is not a problem because Mary, who was already betrothed to Joseph, would expect to eventually be with child. However, Mary replies in the present tense. She says: ?How will this be, since I am a virgin?? In other words, ?I am not having sexual relations with anyone at the moment." Up to this point the angel had not said anything about a virgin birth. If the angel had said, "You are pregnant", then her reply would have made sense. But he says, "You will be pregnant", thus her response is inappropriate. Either Mary intended to remain a virgin after her marriage to Joseph, or she wasn?t listening to what the angel said. In the second passage, the angel tells Mary what this child would achieve: ?He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.? The problem with this is that none of these words, spoken by the angel, came to pass in Yeshua?s lifetime. Yeshua did not rebuild the Temple and re-establish the throne of David, nor did he usher in the ?everlasting Kingdom? ? the Messianic Age. On the contrary, less than forty years after Yeshua?s death the Jews were exiled and the Temple destroyed. The Canonical Matthew Account In this account, there is no record of any discussion between the angel Gavriel and Mary. We are only told of the angel?s communication with Joseph in a dream. The two main points in question here are: ? ?But before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.? ? ?Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.? Let?s take a look at the first point: ?But before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.? In the Tanakh, several women who were barren conceived miraculously. However, the conception did not omit their husband?s participation. So, the main problem with this statement is that it states that Joseph was not involved. Unlike the gods of pagan myths, the God of Israel does not impregnate women. The Torah places much emphasis on a man and woman bringing forth children by becoming ?one flesh? in the context of marriage. This is the first of the 613 Mitzvot in the Torah. To claim that Mary conceived by the ?seed of God? undermines God?s foundational precepts of conception, life and family and also opens the door to ?alternatives?, such as homosexuals adopting children etc. The second point: ?Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.? If Joseph were indeed a ?righteous? man, he would have married Mary immediately because in Judaism there is no such thing as a ?quiet divorce?, not now and certainly not then. A divorce can only be obtained from the Beth Din (Jewish Court of Law) and it is no short procedure. The Beth Din would have judged the case according to Torah Law: ?If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house?? 143 Joseph would have had to specify to the Beth Din why he wanted the divorce. The Beth Din would then have to question Mary as to whose child it was. I doubt that the ?Holy Spirit? story would have been convincing. If neither Joseph nor Mary could name the father, then according to Jewish law this is a case of doubtful legitimacy. 144 How does one hide a pregnant maiden in a small Jewish community? How many people would accept the ?Virgin Birth? story? Many might say, ?It doesn?t matter what people think. God can do what He likes.? True, God can do whatever He likes ? He is able to cause a virgin to become pregnant. But God has never gone against His own Law. Whenever He has performed miracles, it was always in the presence of many witnesses and, never has He performed a miracle that could incriminate one of His servants as violators of His Law or giving the appearance of transgression. Jewish law forbids mar?at ayin ? ?giving the appearance of evil?. Paul also warns of this in his letter to the Thessalonians: "Abstain from all appearance of evil." 145 The ?Virgin Birth? scenario would have placed Mary in exactly this situation - giving the ?appearance of transgression?. She had no witnesses and the correct authorities were not informed, her own parents included. 143 Deuteronomy 24:1 144 Talmud ? Mas. Yevamoth 37a 145 I Thessalonians 5:22 OURS IS NOT TO REASON WHY Growing up in a traditional Christian school I had many questions concerning the ?mysteries? of the Church, such as the Virgin Birth. The standard answer I would receive was, ?Ours is not to reason why.? If the ?New Testament? were available to the 1st century followers of Yeshua, as Orthodox Jews they would have rejected the inconsistencies, contradictions and non-Jewish concepts. In fact, this is exactly what did happen in the 4th century C.E. when ?Christianity? became the official religion of the Roman Empire and the ?New Testament? was compiled. The Jews questioned, argued and rejected, resulting in all ties being cut once and for all between the Jewish Ebionites / Nazarenes and the Gentile Christians. Where did the Ebionite and Nazarene Jews go? They remained within the Jewish community, as usual. They had never left. It was the Gentile ?Christians? who cut themselves off and began a new religion ? Christianity. There is evidence that the Ebionite / Nazarene Sect continued to exist until at least the 12th century. They had nothing to do with Christianity but remained true to the Jewish faith. The 12th century Papal author and historian, Bonacursus, in his article entitled 'Against the Heretics', refers to the Nazarenes, who were also called 'Pasagini'. Bonacursus says: ?Let those who are not yet acquainted with them, please note how perverse their belief and doctrine are. First, they teach that we should obey the Law of Moses according to the letter - the Sabbath, and circumcision, and the legal precepts still being in force. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the Church Fathers, and the whole Roman Church.? 146 Ours is to reason why. 146 Bonacursus: Contra Haereticos, in d'Achery, Spicilegium, vol. 1. CONCLUSION A person who accepts Christianity as his or her religion, gladly accepts its sacred texts, rituals, dogmas and doctrines. This is what it means to be a Christian. All religions have their sacred texts, rituals etc. and people are free to live by whatever religion they choose. Ultimately, what is important, is that people treat one another ethically and morally. Having said that, a Jew needs to understand that he cannot accept Christianity and remain true to his Jewishness any more than a Jew can embrace Islam and remain true to his Jewishness. Christianity, as defined for the past 1700 years, has no foundation in Judaism. To the Jew, Christianity today is akin to Hellenism yesterday. The religion of the God of Israel and the Torah does not allow a mixture. As far as the identity of Mashiach Ben David is concerned, it is obvious that no person has fulfilled this role as yet. What we do know for certain, however, is that Mashiach Ben David will not be someone who fits the description of the Christian ?Jesus?. The identity of the Christian ?Jesus? is supposedly one of a Jew who was born of a virgin, who opposed Judaism and founded a new religion. ?Jesus? is a Gentile/Christian deity. There has never existed a Jew who fits this description. Thus, from a Jewish perspective, ?Jesus? is not the Jewish Messiah, he is an image created by the Church - a myth. The historical Yeshua was a Jew who upheld the Torah in every way. He was born and lived according to all the precepts of Jewish Law. He never claimed to be ?God? nor ?born of a virgin?, nor ?son of God.? In fact, he himself never claimed to be a messiah in any shape or form. We will know that Mashiach Ben David has come when the enemies of Israel will be destroyed, the exiles regathered, the dead resurrected, the Temple rebuilt and a Torah State established in Israel, ushering in the Messianic Age. We believe with complete faith in his coming and even though he tarries, we eagerly await him every day. May he come speedily and in our lifetime. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/e0c46953/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 21:41:11 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 03:41:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <030820090341.22158.49B33E560006DE060000568E22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I'm with ya Miriam. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patricia Robbins" : -------------- LOOOOOOOVE IT!!!!!! Terrific story, Miriam, thank you so much! I too converted to Judaism. BARUCH HASHEM FOR HIS LOVE AND MERCY TOWARD US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So glad He is gathering us "one from a city, two from a family." Shabbat Shalom, Dear One, Pat From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" >>In a message dated 3/6/2009 9:22:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes: I'm not sure if we are in agreement on this thread, Miriam. You and I may well be saying the same thing here. I had assumed Susie's implied question to be, "Is Jesus G-d, and what does Torah say concerning that premise?" To me, HaShem pointedly answers this very question with Nu 23:19, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El).....or the son of a human being (u ben adam).">> I was raised catholic and converted to Judaism. So my beliefs about G-d are Jewish, i.e., G-d is not a man. I didn't have too much trouble with the trinity concept as a youngster. I saw it as three equal partners - what's the big deal? In the church, however, I remember being bothered that "the Father" was kind of ignored and everything revolved around the Son. It was as though the Father, depicted as an old man with a grey beard, retired and just kind of watched over while his son did everything. I also remember wondering why the Holy Spirit was even more ignored than the Father. What did he/it do, and why was the the third member/person? It didn't seem very equal. And if Jesus existed co-eternally with the Father, why was he a nice looking young man, almost always standing with his arms outstretched, with an old Father, always sitting, looking kind of bored and grouchy. Even that was a notch better than the mysterious, wordless dove who represented the spirit. So in the eyes of this young catholic girl in the 1950's, the G-d of Israel was an old man, a young man, and a bird. But I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it until I realized that Jews didn't believe in a trinity! That was a shocker. I felt bad because, as I was taught, the Jews were going to hell because they didn't realize Jesus was the Messiah -- but not believing in a trinity? That needed to be looked into. Moses stood before G-d face to face. Shouldn't G-d have mentioned that he was a trinity? Maybe, "Oh, by the way, there's three of Us." Weren't the Jews "the Chosen" and as G-d's special treasure, shouldn't they have known most intimately what His nature was? So my investigation led to the goings on at the Nicene Council and the Roman break with original Christianity which was entirely Jewish. I also found it quite interesting that the Christian bible shows a "hierarchy" of sorts where G-d is above everyone, including the resurrected Jesus. That doesn't correspond with the idea of co-equal and co-eternal which is part of the Church's trinity doctrine. Did spending 30-something years in the form of a man make him forever secondary in rank, assuming that he gave up some of his equality to take on flesh? I'll leave the Christians to struggle with those ideas. For me, whatever the Torah of Moses and the Hebrew Prophets after him, have to say about the One G-d who never changes suits me just fine. I'm forever grateful the Jews were around to function in their assigned role as "light to the nations" when I was mired in some pretty deep darkness. Baruch HaShem for His Torah and His people. Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/b328a163/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:43:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:43:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Lost Tribes Symposium in Jerusalem! Message-ID: <855590370903071943i2b5d0489y32d4647064ca6daf@mail.gmail.com> Shavua tov L'Kulam, I spent a very interesting time with 15 Ephramite leaders (some from the MIA, others from independent congregations, ministries, etc) last week in Montana. They represent the efforts of a 'Union of Bnai Ephraim,' with plans to do several projects in Israel. One of the items on the agenda is a 'Ten Lost Tribes Symposium' planned (dates are tentative) for January, 2010. More details to follow as I'm able to release them - but start saving your $'s - it will be an exciting symposium, and a great time to schedule a TOUR around it (wink, wink), if anyone's interested in doing that. They invited me there for my feedback and some info sharing about a number of things. Although Montana is very far from NYC, how often do you get to meet near the Battlefield of Little Bighorn, Custer's "last stand"? Some very exciting things are in the works...stay tuned! *Hanoch Israel's 2 State Solution: Judah & Ephraim* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/65b3a764/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 22:03:15 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 04:03:15 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunrise, over the Dead Sea In-Reply-To: <855590370903061227g409e4b13s4ec68bb661c4f6d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030820090403.19233.49B343830004214300004B2122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> When Carin and I were in Israel, we had two experiences associated with the clouds at sunset. One was at the Dead Sea and the other was at the Galilee. In both cases we saw (each of us saw this individually) what we took to be "eyes" looking down on the Land. I see the same thing just over the hills in this photo. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Sunrise, today - Erev Shabbat, at the Dead Sea; photography by Ayala Rivka Young, my favorite eldest daughter...enjoy..... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/3598c56f/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 7 22:25:30 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:25:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <801810.18964.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Miriam, ? This is a lovely story! Also heartwarmingly comical in regards to the old man, young man and a bird! Praise Hashem that he has opened the eyes of many many Christians who also had these same images implanted in their minds from others who taught this and believed it themselves. They now see that the essence of ?G-d known as the Ruach was described in Matthew "like a dove" and not actually a dove. That the Spirit of G-d "hovered" upon the surface of the waters in the very beginning(and that the sages believed this to be the Spirit of Messiah). They have also learned that the tzitzit on the prayer shawl are also known as "wings" and the belief that there is healing and?power?in those wings. Yeshua stated in Acts 1:8 "you will receive power when the Ruach HaKodesh comes upon you...". Many essences or manifestions of One G-d. ? Love, Susie --- On Fri, 3/6/09, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 1:32 PM >>In a message dated 3/6/2009 9:22:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes: I'm not sure if we are in agreement on this?thread, Miriam.??You and I?may well be saying the same thing here.? I had assumed Susie's?implied question to be, "Is Jesus G-d, and what?does?Torah say concerning that premise?"???To me, ?HaShem pointedly answers this very question with?Nu 23:19, "G-d is not a man (lo eesh El).....or the son of a human being (u ben adam).">>? ? I was raised catholic and converted to Judaism.? So my beliefs about G-d are Jewish, i.e., G-d is not a man. ? I didn't have too much trouble with the trinity concept as a youngster.? I saw it as three equal partners - what's the big deal?? In the church, however, I remember being bothered that "the Father" was kind of ignored and everything revolved around the Son.? It was as though the Father, depicted as an old man with a grey beard, retired and just kind of watched over while his son did everything.? I also remember wondering why the Holy Spirit was even more ignored than the Father.? What did he/it do, and why was the the third member/person?? It didn't seem very equal.? And if Jesus existed co-eternally with the Father, why was he a nice looking young man, almost always standing with his arms outstretched,?with an old Father, always sitting, looking kind of bored and grouchy.? Even that was a notch better than the mysterious, wordless dove who represented the spirit.? So in the eyes of this young catholic girl in the 1950's, the G-d of Israel was an old man, a young man, and a bird. ? But I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it until I realized that Jews didn't believe in a trinity!? That was a shocker.? I felt bad because, as I was taught, the Jews?were going to hell because they didn't realize Jesus was the Messiah -- ?but not believing in a trinity?? That needed to be looked into.? Moses stood before G-d face to face.? Shouldn't G-d have mentioned that he was a trinity?? Maybe, "Oh, by the way, there's three of Us."? Weren't the Jews "the Chosen" and as G-d's special treasure, shouldn't they have known most intimately what His nature was?? ? So?my investigation led to the goings on at the Nicene Council and the Roman break with original Christianity which was entirely Jewish.? I also found it quite interesting that the Christian bible shows a "hierarchy" of sorts where G-d is above everyone, including the resurrected Jesus.? That doesn't correspond with the idea of co-equal and co-eternal which is part of the Church's trinity doctrine.??Did spending 30-something years?in the form of a man make him forever secondary in rank, assuming that he gave up some of his equality to take on flesh? ? I'll leave the Christians to struggle with those ideas.? For?me, whatever the Torah of Moses and the Hebrew Prophets after him, have to say about the One G-d who never changes suits me just fine.? I'm forever grateful the Jews were around to function in their assigned role as "light to the nations" when I was mired in some pretty deep darkness.? Baruch HaShem for His Torah and His people. ? Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/d72e5594/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Mar 7 22:50:33 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:50:33 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Chaverim, Please add to your prayers for Australia that people there may wake up to the meaning of these disasters to be Divine wake-up calls. It is God who sends the spirit of repentance when we are blind and deaf to what is going on. "For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring;" -- Isa. 44-3 Steve At 04:56 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >Shalom Chaverim, > >Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe >Tropical Cyclone Hamish. > >Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with >60% of our state under water. >Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with >over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. > >A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring >4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. > >The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two >words: esh- fire and mayim- water. >Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness >and Judgement. >Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. > >This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines >his attributes. > >So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. > >Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland >coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. >If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane >the consequences will be dire. > >Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English >for "Yacov" > > > >[] >Island resorts in the Great Barrier Reef are battening down as north >Queenslanders prepare for severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish which has >now been upgraded to a Category 5. Tourists have been evacuated and >residents are preparing for the worst. > >[] >Whitehaven Bay in the Whitsunday Islands. > > >May HaShem have mercy on us. > >Shalom v'Ahavah >JOE. > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/340c05ca/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6928db.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/340c05ca/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6928f9.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/340c05ca/attachment-0001.jpg From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 22:58:53 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> Message-ID: <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Shall we settle on a particular translation? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: From: sherry cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry? ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I?want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. ? The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. ? How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record?portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! ? The obvious question is how do we pull this off.? Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. ? Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. ? If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. ? I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. ? The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. ? I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. ? Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! ? Shalom, Ross ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/c04d9447/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sat Mar 7 23:02:35 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 05:02:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC><523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1262495542-1236488446-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-735946534-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We will decide on this and other details very soon. Can't wait to see you tomorrow. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: W Glenn Chatterton Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:58:53 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah _______________________________________________ From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Mar 7 23:10:49 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:10:49 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH./ addenda In-Reply-To: <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200903080510.n285Ankp028723@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> My wife Charlene came across a verse that also fits; am adding / including it as a commentary addenda below: She says it says somewhere in the Torah: "God's fateful blows." At 08:50 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >Chaverim, > >Please add to your prayers for Australia that people there may wake >up to the meaning of these disasters to be Divine wake-up calls. It >is God who sends the spirit of repentance when we are blind and deaf >to what is going on. > > "For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the > dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing > upon thine offspring;" -- Isa. 44:3 "Upon the wicked He will cause to rain coals; fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup." >(the KJV uses the words " a horrible tempest" instead of "burning >wind." The Oxford marginal note says the Hebrew means "a burning tempest" > >Steve > > > >At 04:56 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >>Shalom Chaverim, >> >>Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe >>Tropical Cyclone Hamish. >> >>Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with >>60% of our state under water. >>Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with >>over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. >> >>A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring >>4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. >> >>The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two >>words: esh- fire and mayim- water. >>Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness >>and Judgement. >>Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. >> >>This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines >>his attributes. >> >>So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. >> >>Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland >>coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. >>If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane >>the consequences will be dire. >> >>Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the >>English for "Yacov" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/74664a61/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Mar 7 23:15:26 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:15:26 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS In-Reply-To: <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English-speaking peoples. Steve At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >Shall we settle on a particular translation? > >--- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: >From: sherry cole >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM > >Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few >weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start >reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. >See you at the Synagogue, >Blessings, >Sherry >----- Original Message ----- >From: RNDAVAR at aol.com >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM >Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah > >I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have >been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to >involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in >making them feel like they are part of a real community. The >Synagogue Without Walls >(http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the >first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this >list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense >of what we can do with technology. > >The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was >meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. > >How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world >read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into >files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? >Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by >the people of the world, for the people of the world! > >The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am >thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's >torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from >literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - >some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), >some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some >from Europe, etc. > >Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on >this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts >from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in >orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based >upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. > >If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and >let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you >would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a >list updated (no names) so people know what is available. > >I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming >torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as >well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. > >The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will >discuss translations etc, in another message. > >I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and >so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may >want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not >let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. > >Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of >the torah with global voices? I hope so! > >Shalom, Ross > >Ross K. Nichols >www.RootsofFaith.org > > > >---------- >Need a job? >Find >employment help in your area. > >---------- >_______________________________________________ > >---------- > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: >03/07/09 18:43:00 > > >_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/a6ebfbd4/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Mar 8 00:03:19 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:03:19 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] More commentary on Australia and the rest of us Message-ID: <200903080603.n2863I3G027858@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> 17 "They shall be turned back, greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say unto molten images: 'Ye are our gods.' {P} 18 Hear, ye deaf, and look, ye blind, that ye may see. 19 Who is blind, but My servant? Or deaf, as My messenger that I send? Who is blind as he that is wholehearted, and blind as the LORD'S servant? 20 Seeing many things, thou observest not; opening the ears, he heareth not. 21 The LORD was pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to make the teaching great and glorious. 22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled, they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison-houses; they are for a prey, and none delivereth, for a spoil, and none saith: 'Restore.' 23 Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? 24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD? He against whom we have sinned, and in whose ways they would not walk, neither were they obedient unto His law. 25 Therefore He poured upon him the fury of His anger, and the strength of battle; and it set him on fire round about, yet he knew not, and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart." -- Isa. 42:17-25 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090307/0db2db0e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 05:58:33 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 03:58:33 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <855590370903080358n30de110ckb6674ac8cfd8a8ba@mail.gmail.com> All my prayers that Australia be safe... * Hanoch * On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > > > Chaverim, > > Please add to your prayers for Australia that people there may wake up to > the meaning of these disasters to be Divine wake-up calls. It is God who > sends the spirit of repentance when we are blind and deaf to what is going > on. > > "For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry > ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine > offspring;" -- Isa. 44-3 > > > Steve > > > > At 04:56 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: > > *Shalom Chaverim, > > Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe Tropical > Cyclone Hamish. > > Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with 60% of > our state under water. > Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with over 200 > human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. > > A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring 4.7 . > Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. > > The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two words: > esh- fire and mayim- water. > Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness and > Judgement. > Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. > > This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines his > attributes. > > So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. > > Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland coast with > wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. > If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane the > consequences will be dire. > > Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English for > "Yacov" > > * > [image: []] > Island > resorts in the Great Barrier Reef are battening down as north Queenslanders > prepare for severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish which has now been upgraded to a > Category 5. Tourists have been evacuated and residents are preparing for the > worst. > > [image: []] Whitehaven Bay in the Whitsunday Islands. > > > *May HaShem have mercy on us. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/80e2fb79/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 06:18:03 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:18:03 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] Message-ID: <49B3A96B.6050907@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/736f4704/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 03:27:10 +0000 Size: 86450 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/736f4704/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 06:33:45 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:33:45 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH.] Message-ID: <49B3AD19.6070609@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/ce34b182/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 03:58:33 -0700 Size: 10593 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/ce34b182/attachment.eml From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Mar 8 07:06:29 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 08:06:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS In-Reply-To: <200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC> <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <62ACE43C-5D3D-484B-A510-40967139AF92@earthlink.net> I second this nomination, though we should clarify it is not the current JPS that is in print, but the 1917 edition, on line, and now out of print. Having it on line is good, since people would then not have to go and find a copy of the same thing. This is perfect. Also, this translation is Jewish, which I think is essential for this project. And it does read quite well. I hope we decide to go with this and I also think everyone using the same translation is an important idea. James On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > > I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm > , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those > who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close > to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English- > speaking peoples. > > Steve > > At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >> Shall we settle on a particular translation? >> >> --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: >> From: sherry cole >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM >> >> Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few >> weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start >> reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. >> See you at the Synagogue, >> Blessings, >> Sherry >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM >> Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah >> >> I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I >> have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do >> to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in >> making them feel like they are part of a real community. The >> Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the >> first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on >> this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a >> sense of what we can do with technology. >> >> The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was >> meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. >> >> How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world >> read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into >> files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? >> Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by >> the people of the world, for the people of the world! >> >> The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am >> thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love >> God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members >> from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents >> - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - >> Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from >> the west, some from Europe, etc. >> >> Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on >> this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of >> texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 >> to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions >> based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. >> >> If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and >> let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you >> would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a >> list updated (no names) so people know what is available. >> >> I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the >> upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my >> class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. >> >> The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will >> discuss translations etc, in another message. >> >> I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and >> so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may >> want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not >> let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. >> >> Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version >> of the torah with global voices? I hope so! >> >> Shalom, Ross >> >> Ross K. Nichols >> www.RootsofFaith.org >> >> >> Need a job? Find employment help in your area. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: >> 03/07/09 18:43:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/7784e510/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Sun Mar 8 08:03:20 2009 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 08:03:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52173E40D71045F5B40C4367C14E596D@sherryPC> What translation would you suggest? Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: W Glenn Chatterton To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah Shall we settle on a particular translation? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: From: sherry cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a job? Find employment help in your area. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/bac62b1d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Mar 8 08:09:17 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:09:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BBDE611-1AB0-4C16-ABF5-847BD2D4C6B8@earthlink.net> As an interesting sidelight, one way to understand the "two shall become one," is not so much the sexual/psychological union of man and woman, as it is commonly taken, but that two parents come together and produce from the two, another, who is one--namely a child. This is a perfect description of what happens with DNA union/fertilization. I am not advocating either view but just suggesting this as a possibility, and if such be the case "echad" would be unitary here in this verse, not just an expression of solidarity. On Mar 5, 2009, at 7:50 PM, MiriamL613 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/5/2009 10:17:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com > writes: > I guess it comes down to how one understands YHVH and "echad". > Susie>> > > There are various ways of understanding "one," and that's led to > lots of different opinions. The first time we encounter this is in > Genesis where Adam and Eve become "one." Water in a glass is one > glass of water, but the water is not the glass. Similarly, G-d > dwelling IN His people does not make His people G-d. In both the > Tanach and the Christian writings, people are equated with being > Temples for the indwelling of G-d. In the Tanach, G-d says, "Let > them make Me a sanctuary and I will dwell in them" (Exodus 25:8). > Both the Gospel of John (2:21) and 1 Cor. 6:19 speak of the body as > a temple. John 14:10 says, "I am in the Father and the Father in > me...the Father who dwells in me does His works." > > The basic concept here is that oneness is not sameness. Adam and > Eve would have to buy two tickets to get into a movie. There's a > oneness in heart and spirit that Jesus spoke of in John 17 -- a > prayer in which he asked that all of his followers "...be one, even > as we are one, I in them and Thou in me that they may become > perfectly one." > > Particularly in chassidic Judaism, one could find discussions that > say because G-d is everywhere and no part of creation exists without > His presence and because His presence (i.e., the fullness of the > meaning of "omnipresent" and G-d is One) fills all of creation, one > can conclude that everything IS G-d. Yet, of course, we understand > that the Creator is not the creation. > > So, yes, there's lots of ways to understand "One." Fortunately, > Torah law defines what ways it may not be understood and what ways > constitute idolatry, so that worship is directed to G-d Alone. > > Miriam > > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/88fc9231/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 8 08:16:52 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 06:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS In-Reply-To: <200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <363879.17847.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hey, Steve! The new JPS, or the 1917 version? Bothhave pros and cons, of course... I agree that they are well supported with additional materials. I also think Jame's translation would provide a fresh perspective on the readings... --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 11:15 PM I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English-speaking peoples. Steve At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: Shall we settle on a particular translation? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: From: sherry cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. ? The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. ? How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! ? The obvious question is how do we pull this off.? Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. ? Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. ? If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. ? I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. ? The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. ? I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. ? Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! ? Shalom, Ross ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/0116e86c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 09:08:58 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:08:58 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Bibi's Hebron Conondrum' Message-ID: <855590370903080708i72ad13ame3568c108b0ceb5c@mail.gmail.com> *Bibi's Hebron conundrum* David Wilder March 08, 2009 On September 7, 1995 Binyamin Netanyahu, candidate for Prime Minister, while visiting Hebron, issued the following statement: The Jewish settlement will remain in Hebron permanently. If someone tries to take it away, my friends and I will be here, and they will have to take us away as well. It will be a fatal mistake to bring hundreds of armed Palestinian policemen here, and there will be a small area where the Jews can pass and where the police and IDF can operate. If there will be a conflict, the IDF will not be able to function and will quickly collide with the Palestinian forces. This is a prescription for tragedy. There is one body responsible, and that has to be the IDF". On May 13, 1996 he declared "redeployment should be put off until the final settlement. Hebron is a very complicated problem. It is the oldest Jewish settlement in the world, and the Jewish community there is in great danger. We all remember what happened in 1929. It is preferable that such a complex matter be carefully considered at the final status talks." Yet, in early 1997, during a press conference dealing with the Hebron Accords, Netanyahu proclaimed: "the ideological concepts he grew up believing are "not all within reach anymore," necessitating "hard decisions and generating a "meeting ground between vision and reality. This is leadership." On January 14, 1997, Prime Minister Netanyahu, together with Yassar Arafat, signed the Hebron Accords, which were implemented six days later. Those accords divided Hebron into two sections, leaving over 80% of the city under the security control of the Palestinian Authority. Amongst the land abandoned were the Abu-Sneneh Hills, overlooking Hebron's Jewish community to the south, and Harat a-Shech, to the north. It was from these hills that Arafat's gunman terrorized Hebron for over two and a half years, shooting day and night, into people's apartments, cars and walking on the street. Abu Sneneh became infamous following the murder of ten month old Shalhevet Pass, exactly eight years ago. The Jewish Community of Hebron continues to come under attack on numerous fronts. Only a few months ago outgoing Defense Minister Ehud Barak ordered the forced expulsion of families from Beit HaShalom, despite letters signed by some 50 Knesset members, both to him and to Attorney General Mazuz, demanding postponement of the eviction pending the elections and examination of new evidence. The Israeli Supreme Court continues to allow extreme left-wing organizations, such as Shovrim Shtika (Breaking the Silence) and Bnei Avraham to incite Hebron's Arabs against the Jewish community under the guise of 'guided tours.' This, at tremendous cost to the state. In the words of attorney Sherman, representing the state, such 'tours' demand apportioning of large numbers of police and army forces to provide security during the 'tours.' However, he refrained from pointing out to the court that the police themselves define these events as blatant provocations which have led to an increase in unrest and violence in Hebron. These 'tours' are conducted at the cost of Hebron residents' civil liberties. Police routinely close streets in Hebron to Jewish traffic because of the left-wing visits to the city. A Hebron resident was stopped by police and not allowed to reach his Tel Rumeida home because of the extremist's visiting an Arab family in the neighborhood. Concurrently, ninety seven percent of Hebron is closed to Jews, and Jewish groups are prevented by the police from similar visits in cities such as Um-el-Fachem. Arab violence in Hebron is on the rise. Almost daily rocks are hurled at Israeli automobiles driving between Hebron and Kiryat Arba, injuring drivers and passangers and causing damage to the cars. Two months ago two Jewish girls were physically attacked by Arabs on this road. Additionally, Arab terrorists armed with knives are apprehended weekly near the Tomb of the Patriarchs. During questioning they admit that their goal was to stab and kill Israelis. A few months ago a woman terrorist nearly killed a high-ranking police officer near Ma'arat HaMachpela. At the same time, Hebron and Kiryat Arba leaders have been informed by the IDF central command that 'Tzir Tzion,' the Zion Road, beginning about a kilometer north of the entrance to Kiryat Arba, and continuing into Hebron, will soon be opened to Arab vehicular traffic. The last time the roadblocks on this road were removed and Arab traffic allowed free travel on it, two Israelis were killed in the space of 12 hours: Contractor David Cohen and Kiryat Arba Councilman Hezzy Mualem. This is the only road bridging Hebron to Kiryat Arba and is used hundreds of times a day by Jews traveling from Hebron to Kiryat Arba and from there to Jerusalem, and vice-versa. Unfortunately, Israel has, in the past year, witnessed a new type of terror, utilizing moving vehicles. Reopening this road is a sure recipe for continued terror aimed at Hebron-Kiryat Arba residents and the hundreds of thousands of visitors who tour the city annually. How will incoming Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu react to these threats? What will be his attitude towards the Jewish Community of Hebron? The cabinet decision approving the Hebron Accords in 1997 included the following statement: "The Government will act to maintain all the conditions and requirements necessary for the existence, security and consolidation of the Jewish community in Hebron." Will Netanyahu keep his promise? Will he provide full security for Hebron? Will he approve permits allowing Jews to build on Jewish property? Will he issue permits allowing Jews to legally purchase property from Arabs desiring to sell? Not too long ago President Shimon Peres, speaking about the destruction of Gush Katif, told visiting American Jewish leaders: "I was for leaving Gaza. I feel myself as one of the persons mistaken?Whatever will happen in the future, we shall not repeat the mistakes we made in leaving Gaza." What could be more appropriate than Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu standing on the stairs leading to Ma'arat HaMachpela, conceding that the Hebron Accords, dividing Hebron, were an error on his part, guaranteeing never again to enact policies endangering the existence of Hebron's Jewish community, while promising concrete measures fulfilling his past government's commitment to provide maximum security and strengthen the first Jewish city in the land of Israel! comments *The Jewish Community of Hebron** *POB 105 , *Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100 **hebron at hebron.org.il* * * *Tour Hebron:** Tel *[See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file]972-52-...[See the attached file]* or write: tour at hebron.com * *The Hebron Fund** *1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230 *www.hebronfund.com hebronfund at aol.com * [See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file][See the attached file]718-677-6886[See the attached file] *Web:* www.hebron.com *Ma'arat HaMachpela:* www.machpela.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/5a8d3246/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 09:14:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:14:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Price of a Miracle" Message-ID: <855590370903080714o23fa3caega88d595981f31807@mail.gmail.com> *The Price of a Miracle by Rabbi Lazer Brody* We often take for granted the fact that we, the Jewish people, live on miracles. The Jewish people in Israel especially exist on a higher-than-nature plateau that defies any natural course of events. Only an idiot would attribute Israel's existence to military might and so forth. On a military level, as we evr-so-painfully see despite the recent Gaza war, Israel still has no technological/military answer to missile warfare, with missiles still falling in the south of Israel, from Ashkelon to Sderot and all points in between. The Hamas missiles are a tiny threat compared to the quantity and quality of the Hizbolla, Syrian, and Iranian missiles aimed at every square centimeter of our beloved Holy Land this very moment. People have the mistaken impression that we can sit back and do nothing while Hashem gives us miracles. That's wrong. The miracle of Purim was only after Esther said to Mordechai (Esther 4:16), "Go gather all the Jews... fast for me, don't eat or drink for 3 days and 3 nights; I and my handmaidens shall fast likewise." In other words, the entire Jewish people made complete teshuva and returned to Hashem. The existential threat of this generation is just as bad as it was in the time of Haman. Achmedinejad and Assad's designs together with their proxies Hamas and Hisbolla, as well as global Islamofascist objectives, are no different than Haman's platform. Although we don't know what our own politicians stand for, since they promise one thing before elections and quickly change their minds after the elections for political expediency, our neighbors are not politically expedient. They have a clear political and military agenda that's based on the destruction of the Jewish people, just like Haman. The words "Israel" and Zionism" are only excuses for the desire to kill Jews. Every Adar, Hashem renews the of the miracle of our survival. That's what the joy of Purim is all about. Yet, miracles have a price tag - they behoove us. When there's no teshuva to pay for the miracle, Hashem must take a public sacrifice from the greatest and purest tzaddikim of our generation. That explains the brutal murder of Erez Levanonduring his personal prayer to Hashem exactly two years ago in Adar, and the barbaric massacre of the 8 Mercaz HaRav boys during their Torah study last year on Rosh Chodesh Adar. Who needs more martyrs? Let's gather all the Jews and commit to genuine teshuva. If that's too hard, let's help spread emuna in the world. We can start by teaching the bedtime "Shma Yisrael" prayer to every Jewish child we know. Here is the The Shma Prayer in PDFwith the original Hebrew, transliteration, and translation; send it to everyone you know. Our sages tell us that the mitzva of saying Shma Yisrael" alone is enough to save us from any and all calamity. Happy Purim week. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/4b1c3d49/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 09:30:37 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:30:37 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] How Obama, Hillary and Kerry will, ultimately, bring peace to the Middle East Message-ID: <855590370903080730s6e7bc9a0v36b5326070648c9@mail.gmail.com> *How Obama, Hillary and Kerry will, ultimately, bring peace to the Middle East * By Caroline B. Glick ** *http://www.JewishWorldReview.com |* Compare and contrast the following three events: At the International Atomic Energy Agency's Board of Governors meeting on Wednesday, George Schulte, the US ambassador to the IAEA pointed an accusatory finger at Syria. Syria, Schulte said, has not come clean on its nuclear program. That program of course, was exposed in September 2007 when Israel reportedly destroyed Syria's North Korean built, Iranian financed al Kibar nuclear reactor. In its report to its board of governors, the IAEA stated that in analyzing soil samples from the bombed installation, its inspectors discovered traces of uranium. The nuclear watchdog agency also noted that the Syrians have blocked UN nuclear inspectors from the site and from three other suspected nuclear sites. Reacting to the IAEA report, Schulte said that it, "contributes to the growing evidence of clandestine nuclear activities in Syria." He added, "We must understand why such [uranium] material - material not previously declared to the IAEA - existed in Syria and this can only happen if Syria provides the cooperation requested." On Tuesday, at a press conference in Jerusalem with outgoing Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, visiting US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that the Obama administration is sending two senior envoys to Syria. Their job, as she put it, is to begin "preliminary conversations," on how to jumpstart US-Syrian bilateral ties. Clinton's statement made good headlines, but she was light on details. On Wednesday, hours after Schulte accused Syria of covering up its illicit nuclear program, US Senator John Kerry helpfully filled in the blanks about the nature of the Obama administration's overtures to nuclear-proliferating Damascus. In an address before the left-leaning Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institute in Washington, the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who just returned from a visit to Syria, Israel and the Palestinian Authority said that the purpose of US overtures to Syria is to appease Syrian President Bashar Assad. If in the past, both American and Israeli policymakers interested in engaging Syria have made ending Syria's alliance with Iran a central goal of their proposed engagement, Kerry dismissed such an aim as unrealistic. In his words, "We should have no illusions that Syria will immediately end its ties with Iran." Indeed, as far as Kerry is concerned, Syria's role in these talks is not to actually give the US anything of value. Rather, Syria's role is to take things of value from the US - and of course from Israel. Kerry proposed that in exchange for Syrian acceptance the US's offer of friendship and Assad's willingness to negotiate an Israeli surrender of the Golan Heights, the US should consider "loosening certain sanctions" against Syria. Doing so, he claimed will also be good for the US economy because it will open new opportunities for US businesses. On the surface, the disparate statements by Schulte, Clinton and Kerry present us with a puzzle. In Geneva, Schulte noted that Syria is a nuclear proliferating rogue state that has refused to cooperate with UN nuclear inspectors. And in Jerusalem and Washington, Clinton and Kerry ignored Syria's dangerous actions, and advocated a policy of appeasement. At the same IAEA Board of Governors meeting this week, the agency reported that Iran has produced more than a thousand kilograms of low enriched uranium - enough to build a bomb after further enrichment. That enrichment can be completed by year's end with Iran's 5,600 centrifuges. Moreover, between the Russian-built, soon to be opened nuclear reactor in Bushehr and Iran' illicit heavy water reactor in Arak, Iran will have the capacity to build plutonium-based bombs within two years. Commenting on the IAEA's report on Iran, US Admiral Michael Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff acknowledged that Iran has enough uranium for a bomb. Seemingly contradicting Mullen, Defense Secretary Robert Gates claimed that there is no reason to worry about all that uranium because Iran won't have a bomb for some time given that the uranium it possesses is not sufficiently enriched to make a bomb. For his part, US President Barack Obama is receiving guidance on contending with Iran from former Congressman Lee Hamilton, who co-authored the Baker-Hamilton Iraq Study Group report published in December 2006. That report called for the US to coordinate the withdrawal of its forces from Iraq with Iran and Syria - the principal sponsors of both the Shiite and Sunni insurgencies in the country. It recommended that the US purchase Syria's good will by pressuring Israel to surrender the Golan Heights to Damascus and Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem to Hamas. It recommended that the US win Iran's trust by accepting it as a nuclear power and pledging not to overthrow the regime. In an interview last month with Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, Hamilton reiterated those recommendations. He claimed that the starting point for US-Iran discussions is for the US to "state our respect for the Iranian people, renounce regime change as an instrument of US policy, seek opportunities for a range of dialogue across a range of issues, and acknowledge Iran's security concerns and its right to civilian nuclear power." Hamilton assured Ignatius that these recommendations have been adopted by the White House. All of the above show that there is no contradiction between what the Obama administration understands about Iran and Syria and the policy it has adopted towards them. Specifically, as Schulte's and Mullen's statements make clear, the administration is aware of the dangers that both Iran and Syria constitute to global security. And as Clinton, Kerry, Gates and Hamilton all make clear, the administration's policy for dealing with those dangers is to change the subject and hope the American public won't notice or mind. To this end, the administration is now asserting that Iran and Syria - the two most active agents of regional instability - share the US's interest in a stable, democratic Iraq. And owing to their sudden devotion to stability, Obama's surrogates tell us the Syrians and Iranians will support the new anti-Syrian and anti-Iranian Iraqi democracy and even protect it after the US withdraws its forces from the country. Then too, as both Kerry and Clinton made clear, the administration plans to ignore Syria's support for Iraqi, Palestinian and Lebanese terrorism, its nuclear proliferation activities and its massive ballistic missile arsenal as well as its strategic alliance with Iran. Rather than confront Syria about its bad behavior, the administration favors a policy based on making believe that in his heart of hearts, Assad is a liberal democrat who aspires to peace, and hope, and change. But the core of the administration's campaign to ignore Iran's nuclear program - as well as Syria's - is its unrelenting quest for the big payoff: Palestinian statehood. This week Iran staged yet another "Destroy Israel" conference in Teheran, replete with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's trademark Holocaust denial, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's ritual castigation of the Jewish state as a "cancerous tumor," and the US as a treacherous enemy, and Ali Larijani's threat to attack Israel's suspected nuclear sites. The conference enjoyed a newfound sense of international legitimacy taking place as it did just after burka-clad Annette Benning's goodwill Hollywood celebrity visit to the mullocracy. The genocidal pageantry in Teheran, elicited no significant response from Clinton and Kerry. They had bigger fish to fry. While the administration and its supporters seem to believe that the US has no right to make demands on Iran and Syria which, they assert, are both just advancing their national interests, for them Israel is a completely different story. As Clinton and Kerry demonstrated this week, the administration and its supporters will not stop making demands on Israel. Kerry justified Syria's continued alliance with Iran by saying that Syria should be expected to "play both sides of the fence [with the US and Iran] as other nations do when they believe it is in their interests." But Israel has no right to similarly take what action it deems necessary to secure its interests. In Kerry's view, the time has come for the US to show that it is serious about Palestinian statehood and the way to do that is to force Israel to block all Jewish building in Judea and Samaria. In his words, "On the Israeli side, nothing will do more to make clear our seriousness about turning the page than demonstrating - with actions rather than words - that we are serious about Israel freezing settlement activity in the West Bank." He also called for the US to compel Israel to open its borders with Gaza. And he said that from his perspective, it is unacceptable for the incoming Netanyahu government not to embrace establishing a Palestinian state as its most urgent goal. Clinton joined Kerry his efforts to compel the Jewish state to ignore its national interests in the cause of the higher goal of Palestinian statehood. Like him, she attacked Israel for not handing control over its borders with Gaza to Hamas. And like Kerry, she stated repeatedly that her greatest goal is to establish a Palestinian state. Clinton's unique contribution to that great "pro-peace" endeavor this week was her outspoken criticism on Wednesday of the Jerusalem municipality's decision to enforce the city's building and planning ordinances equally towards both Jews and Arabs. That policy was made clear this week when city inspectors destroyed illegal buildings in both Jewish and Arab neighborhoods. Since as far as Clinton is concerned, Israel will one day be required to throw all the Jews out of East, South and North Jerusalem to make room forwhat she believes is the "inevitable" Palestinian state, Israel has no right to treat Arabs and Jews equally in its soon-to-be-inevitably divided capital city. Arabs should be allowed to break the law at will. When Israel insists on enforcing its laws without prejudice, Clinton condemns it for being anti-peace. Kerry argues that by forcing Israel to give its land to the Palestinians the US will be promoting regional stability by doing the bidding of anti-Iranian Arab states like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. But even if putting the screws to Israel makes Cairo and Riyadh happy, their happiness will have no impact whatsoever on Iran's nuclear weapons programs or on Syria's proliferation activities. That is, Israeli land giveaways will have no impact on regional stability. And that's precisely the point. The Obama administration has no intention of preventing Iran from becoming a nuclear power or Syria from maintaining its alliance with the mullahs. The White House seeks far more modest ends. Through its policies towards Israel on the one hand and Iran and Syria on the other, the Obama administration demonstrates that it has already accepted a nuclear Iran. Its chief concern today is to avoid being blamed when the mushroom clouds appear in the sky. And it may well achieve that aim. After all, how could the administration be blamed for a nuclear Iran when it has wholly devoted its efforts to advancing the righteous cause of peace? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/827cc25d/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 10:10:35 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:10:35 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] How Obama, Hillary and Kerry will, ultimately, bring peace to the Middle East] Message-ID: <49B3DFEB.5000207@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/61b6d026/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] How Obama, Hillary and Kerry will, ultimately, bring peace to the Middle East Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:30:37 -0700 Size: 29037 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/61b6d026/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 10:15:04 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:15:04 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Japanese View of the' Palestinians' Message-ID: <49B3E0F8.9080800@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/359691b8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/359691b8/attachment.jpg From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 8 10:27:33 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:27:33 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] In-Reply-To: <49B3A96B.6050907@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <030820091527.12629.49B3E3E200077B970000315522216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, How are things going over there? Let me clarify, I'm not defending the virgin birth, I agree with the conclusion that it is a redaction intended to defend the Christian doctrine. My point is that disposing of it from ones belief does not necessitate eliminating Yeshua as messiah. The Ebionites didn't accept the virgin birth idea, did not consider Yeshua divine and still followed his teaching and considered him messiah, in a very Jewish way. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom John, just got back from visiting my father and sister in Brisbane to ensure they are ready for the possible strike of Cyclone Hamish. We had a lovely Italian BBQ. To do justice to my friend who wrote the article that I had sent recently, I would like to add from the same article , the inclusion of Isaiah 7 v 14.? My apologies if the Hebrew characters do not encrypt. Sorry another long post. The Virgin Birth ?The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel? - which means, ?God with us.? 90 This verse from Isaiah chapter 7 is the only Tanakh verse that has been used by Christians as the supposed basis for the Virgin Birth. The above quotation, as found in the Gospel of Matthew, is not worded accurately. It has been translated in the future tense, whereas Isaiah wrote it in the present and past tense. This will be discussed in detail in the next section. THE VIRGIN BIRTH IN THE TANAKH (?OLD TESTAMENT?) Is there a precedent for the Virgin Birth in the Tanakh? There is only one reference in the Tanakh that has been used by Christians as the supposed basis for the Virgin Birth: Isaiah chapter 7. The Isaiah Chapter 7 Prophecy It should be said at the outset that the word ?virgin? - betulah, does not appear in the seventh chapter of Isaiah. The translator of Matthew?s gospel (Jerome) mistranslated the Hebrew word ha?almah ? ?the young woman? - as ?the virgin.? The Hebrew word ha'almah does not mean ?the virgin,? it means ?the young woman,? with no implication of virginity. A young woman can be either married or unmarried. The word for ?virgin? is betulah, which refers to an unmarried girl. If you read Isaiah chapter 7 and the following chapter, it is clear that Isaiah?s declaration was a prophecy of the unsuccessful siege of Jerusalem by the two armies of the kingdoms of Israel and Syria, not a ?virgin birth? more than 700 years later. If we interpret this chapter as referring to Yeshua's birth, what possible comfort and assurance could Ahaz (735 B.C.E), who was surrounded by two overwhelming military enemies, find in the birth of a child seven centuries later? Both he and his people would long be dead and buried. Such a sign would make no sense. Verses 15-16 state that by the time this child reaches the age of maturity (he knows to reject bad and choose good), the two warring kings, Pekah and Rezin, will have been removed. In II Kings 15-16 we see that this prophecy was fulfilled when these two kings were suddenly assassinated. With an understanding of the context of Isaiah 7:14 alone, it is evident that the child born in Isaiah 7:14 is not referring to Yeshua or to any future virgin birth. Rather, it is referring to the divine protection (Immanu?el - God with us), that Ahaz and his people would enjoy, from their impending destruction at the hands of these two enemies, the northern Kingdom of Israel and Syria. Let?s take a look at what the Hebrew actually says. k?2t ?b?7OE!g ??n}A ,t?7r7e?u i?2? ,3s?3k`h?u ?v7r7v v7n0k*g?7v v???1v ?Behold, the young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-El.? 91 ? The passage says the young woman, not a young woman, which implies that it is a specific young woman known to Ahaz. ? The young woman is already pregnant, because the word following ?ha-almah? v7n0k*g7v is ?hara? ?v7r7v, which means is pregnant. ??the young woman is with child.? This passage is not speaking of a future event as suggested by the translation found in the Gospel of Matthew. In Isaiah?s account, the ?young woman? (almah), not virgin (betulah), is already with child. The Hebrew word ?almah? appears ten times in the Tanakh; in each case it means ?young woman?. When the Scriptures refer to a virgin (and they do over fifty times) the Hebrew word used is always ?betulah?. The translator of the ?original? Matthew account (Jerome) was using the Septuagint - the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, which incorrectly uses the word ?parthena? in the Isaiah 7 text. The Greek word parthena, is the same word from which is derived the name of the Greek ?Temple of Virgins? - the Parthenon. The word parthena specifically means ?virgin?, not ?young woman?. The Septuagint, created in 245 B.C.E by 72 Jewish Sages at the request of King Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt, was a Greek translation of the ?Five Books of Moses? alone (the Torah). It did not contain the other books of the Tanakh ? the Prophets and the Writings. The Talmud explicitly states this in Tractate Megillah (9a): ?R. Judah said: When our teachers permitted Greek, they permitted it only for a scroll of the Torah. This was on account of the incident related in connection with King Ptolemy, as it has been taught: ?It is related of King Ptolemy that he brought together seventy-two elders and placed them in seventy-two [separate] rooms, without telling them why he had brought them together, and he went in to each one of them and said to him: Translate for me the Torah of Moses your master.?? Josephus also affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews. 92 The rest of the Tanakh was translated into Greek by about 100 B.C.E, but it is uncertain by whom. 93 The fact that additional books known as the ?Apocrypha?, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the ?Jewishness? of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is such a poor translation that Jews wouldn?t even use it - not then, not now. In fact, the Jewish authorities at the time condemned the work and declared a period of mourning because of the defects in the version. In the 3rd. century C.E., the Septuagint became identified as the ?Old Testament of the Christian Church.? 94 Nowhere does the Tanakh, or other Jewish writings, specify that the Messiah would be born of a virgin; the very idea is alien to Jewish expectations of whom the Messiah would be. Quite contrary to the Hellenized ?Jesus? figure, whose identity is based on the virgin-born demi-gods of that era. The trend to drag in, however irrelevantly, any Tanakh text that could be looked upon as prophetic, is noticeable throughout the New Testament. This seems to be an attempt to replace Israel with ?Jesus?. All promises and prophecies concerning Israel now pertain to ?Jesus?. The Church Fathers, in their arguments with those who did not believe in their new interpretations of Scripture, do not adduce evidence about the facts, but use quotations from the Prophets as to what facts should be expected. In the case of the Virgin Birth, because the Isaiah passage had inaccurately been translated as ?virgin? (parthena), and because the New Testament translators had already decided that this passage was a reference to the birth of the Messiah (incorrectly), and that ?Jesus? was that Messiah, then he must have been born of a virgin. That is their argument. 92 Antiquities of the Jews, XII, ii, 1-4. 93 Lawrence H. Schiffman, Texts and Traditions, quoting ?The Letter of Aristeas: How the Jewish Law Was Translated From Hebrew Into Greek?. The Encyclopedia of Judaism: The Septuagint. 94 Patzia, A. The Making of the New Testament On the definition of Mashiach , this is what she writes : DEFINITIONS Before we begin to look at the concept of the ?Virgin Birth?, let us compare Christian and Jewish views of the Messiah. The Messiah in Christianity The most important characteristic of the Christian messiah is that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit by the virgin Mary. He had no earthly father, but rather was ?Son of God? by the Holy Spirit. ?Jesus? is also considered ?God incarnate?, that is to say, ?God in the flesh.? This belief is a foundational doctrine of Christendom and central theme of who ?Jesus?, the Christian messiah, is. Without the Virgin Birth, Jesus is not the ?Son of God? by Christian definition. Here are some examples of mainstream Churches? Statements of Faith concerning ?Jesus?: ? Roman Catholic Church ?I believe in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God; he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary." 12 According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, ?Jesus, from the beginning, was the one whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, conceived as holy in Mary's virginal womb. God called Joseph to take Mary as his wife, for that which was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit.? 13 ? Baptist Church of Australia ?Jesus Christ as the second Person of the Godhead is eternally one with God the Father of whose person and glory Jesus is the accurate expression. To become human He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, so that two whole and perfect natures, the nature of God and human nature, were united in one Person; truly God and truly human.? 14 ? Anglican Church, Australia (U.S.A. Episcopalian) ?The Son of God: He is eternal. He took on human nature and was born of the virgin Mary. He has both Divine and Human Natures in the one Person.? 15 ? Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) ?We believe there is One God, eternally existent in three persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, in the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth.? 16 12 Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Profession Of Faith, Articles 2 & 3. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm 13 Catechism of the Catholic Church 14 http://baptistnsw.asn.au/about/faith 15 http://www.stlukesclovelly.org/pages/beliefs/our_beliefs.htm 16 http://www.pastornet.net.au/harvest/jesus/about.html#Statement%20of%20Beliefs The Messiah (Mashiach) In Judaism The Hebrew word Mashiach means ?anointed?. In the Tanakh many were given the title ?mashiach?, including kings, prophets and priests. For example, Moshe (Moses) was a mashiach (anointed one). God even referred to Moshe as ?elohim? (a ruler/god): v`?g}r8p0k oh1v?%t ?h?!?*,?b v?2t}r v?#A`n?k#t ?v??v?h r#nt`?oe?u ?And the Lord said to Moses, See, I have made you a god oh1v?%t (elohim) to Pharaoh?? 17 King David is also called ?mashiach?: c`?e4g??h h?2v?%t ?8jh?!A}n k?7g o8e?9v ?r3c???8v o?{t?b? h*A?h?i3? s??u7? ?David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed ?8jh!A}n (mashiach) of the God of Jacob?? 18 But there is only one mashiach who is HA-Mashiach - THE Messiah, the son of David, of the tribe of Judah, spoken of in the Tanakh: ?The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler?s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.? 19 "And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you (David) must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever." 20 In the Peshita (translated from the Aramaic), the above is translated as: ?And it shall to pass when your days are fulfilled that you shall go to be gathered with your fathers; I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come out of your loins, and I will establish him in your kingdom.? 21 The above passage states that the Mashiach will come from the ?loins? of the sons of David. He will be a direct physical descendant through the literal seed of the sons of David, thus ruling out a ?Virgin Birth?. All others given the title of ?mashiach?, do not fit this description. Moshe was a Levite, not from the tribe of Judah. And David could not have been the one, because Ha-Mashiach is a descendant of David. The concept of Messiah has not been constant throughout Jewish history. Often the longing for Messiah tended to intensify during periods of persecution or exile. During such difficult times, a tzaddik (righteous one) would arise and bring hope and spiritual revival to the Jewish people. Sometimes, this tzaddik was looked upon as a mashiach. Judaism teaches that in every generation there is a person with the potential to be the Mashiach. Throughout Jewish history there have been several tzaddikim (righteous ones) who have served as a messiah for that generation, but none have fulfilled the role of ?Ha- Mashiach Ben David? (The Messiah, Son of David) - the one who will regather all dispersed Jews, resurrect the dead and usher in the Messianic Age. Judaism?s ?Principle of Faith? concerning the Messiah states: ?I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah. Even though he tarry, I will eagerly await his coming every day.? 22 Judaism?s basic teaching concerning the Messiah is as follows: ?The Messiah will be a regular human being, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that God would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of God as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that God ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the Messiah himself.? 23 Judaism teaches that the Messiah will accomplish the following: ? Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). ? Resurrect the dead (Daniel 12:1,2; Isaiah 26:19). ? Gather all Jews back to the land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). ? Usher in an era of world peace, end all oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4). ? Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world - on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 17 Exodus 7:1 18 2 Samuel 23:1 19 Genesis 49:10 20 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 21 1 Chronicles 17:11, Peshita, Lamsa 22 Maimonades? Thirteen Principles of Faith, quoted in: Noson Gurary,?The Thirteeen Principles of Faith, A Chasidic Viewpoint.? 23 The Jewish View of the Messiah: http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah4.htm Defining the Virgin Birth Let us define the Virgin Birth according to Christian doctrine. The Roman Catholic View First of all, it is important to point out that the Virgin Birth is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. A ?dogma? is a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof. 24 The Catholic Encyclopedia gives this definition: ?The word dogma (Gr. dogma from dokein) signifies, in the writings of the ancient classical authors, sometimes, an opinion or that which seems true to a person; sometimes, the philosophical doctrines or tenets, and especially the distinctive philosophical doctrines, of a particular school of philosophers (cf. Cic. Ac., ii, 9), and sometimes, a public decree or ordinance, as dogma poieisthai.? 25 Concerning the Virgin Birth, the Catholic Encyclopedia states: ?The Virgin Birth of Christ: the dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.? 26 The dogma of the Virgin Birth was defined as an article of faith by the Fifth General Council held at Constantinople under Pope Vigilius in 553 C.E., and again by the Lateran Council held by Pope Martin I at Rome in 640 C.E. The Roman Catholic Councils and Creeds state: ?The virginity of our Blessed Lady was defined under ?anathema? 27 in the third canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin I, A.D. 649. The Nicene Constantinopolitan Creed, as recited in the Catholic Mass, expresses belief in ?Christ incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary?; the Apostles' Creed professes that Jesus Christ ?was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary; the older form of the same creed uses the expression: born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary.? 28 These professions show that the body of Jesus Christ was not sent down from Heaven, nor taken from earth as was that of Adam, but that its matter was supplied by Mary; that Mary co-operated in the formation of Christ's body as every other mother co-operates in the formation of the body of her child, since otherwise Christ could not be said to be born of Mary just as Eve cannot be said to be born of Adam; that the germ in whose development and growth into the Infant Jesus, Mary co-operated, was fecundated not by any human action, but by the Divine power attributed to the Holy Ghost; that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that ?the Light from Light? proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the ?power of the Most High? passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that ?the body of the Word? formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.? 29 The Protestant View Protestant teaching states: ?The virgin birth refers to Mary?s miraculous conception of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit, without any male participation, so that, though the birth process was not unlike that of other humans, Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was born.? 30 ?Having been born of the Virgin Mary, Jesus was human offspring. Having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and overshadowed by the power of the Most High, Jesus was holy Offspring - the sinless Son of God. Therefore, the doctrine of the virgin birth impacts one?s view of the sinlessness of Christ. When Mary conceived, she passed on her human nature to the anthropic person, but she was prevented by the Holy Spirit from transmitting a sin nature. The doctrine of the virgin birth is also closely tied with our own salvation. If Jesus had been tainted with sin, then He could not have been our sufficient Sacrifice. On the other hand, if Jesus had not been born of Mary, and so had not been the Man, Christ Jesus, then He could not have died, nor could He have been a suitable sacrificial substitute as a Man for men. Christ became human in a miraculous way. The provision of salvation, therefore, is all of God and none of man.? 31 The sole difference between Roman Catholic and Protestant views of the Virgin Birth is that Protestantism doesn?t accept the Catholic view that Mary was a perpetual (forever) virgin. Protestantism teaches that after ?Jesus? was born, Mary had normal relations with Joseph, her husband. 24 WordNet: a lexical database for the English language: Cognitive Science Laboratory, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ, USA 25 Catholic Encyclopedia: Dogma 26 Catholic Encyclopedia, Virgin Birth of Christ. 27 ?Anathema? ? Cursed by God & the Church. 28 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV, 1999 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat, October 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. 29 Ibid 30 Erickson, Millard J. Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1986. 31 Gromacki, Robert G. The Virgin Birth: Doctrine of Deity. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1981 reprint. This study by my friend was years in the making. She was meticulous in all her research and endeavours and was applauded by the local rabbis. Her study has helped my immensely in unraveling of the personage of Yeshua ben Yosef. This study does not detract in any way the prophetic message and mission of Yeshua. I believe that it actually reinforces and clearly elucidates the prophets. It tears away the Hellenistic Jesus to reveal Yeshua the Jew and his love of HaShem and His Torah. I do not have any hang ups. What was more important to me , to believe in Jesus , born of a virgin or Yeshua the one who showed us all how to follow and obey the Father. Jesus, the demi-god and his Greco- religion makes it impossible for me, thereby requiring his atonement. Yeshua, the man shows me ,the sinner, that it is possible to do teshuva and keep the Torah. It is not a belief but a way of life. The choice is ours. ???????? ?????????? ???????, ?????? ???????????????? ???????--???-???????? ???? ???????, ????? ??????? ????. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. ??????? ???????????, ????:? ??????, ??? ???????-?????? ????????????? ??????????? ??????, ?????????????? ??????, ?????????????. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' ?????????-??????? ??????, ????:? ??????, ??? ???????-????? ???-????? ?????? ??????????? ??????, ?????????????? ??????, ?????????????. 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' ????????-?????? ??????? ????????, ?????:? ???????? ????????????, ??????????.? {?} 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. {S} ????????? ???????? ????????? ???????, ???-??????????????-???????, ?????-????????, ?????-?????. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, ?????????? ??????? ?????????, ???????, ????????????-??????????????? ??????? ???????????, ?????????? ??????????? ?????????????????????????; ????????? ?????????--?????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????? ??????-?????? ???-??????? ????????????. 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. ?????????-??????? ????????, ????? ????????; ????????????, ????????????????? ????????? ????????--????????????. 17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; ??????????????? ????? ???????, ???? ????? ??????????:????-?????????? ??????, ???-?????????, ?????? ?????? ????????-???????????, ?????? ??????? ????????????. 18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. ????????????? ????? ???????, ???-????????????????-???????--????????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????, ??????????????????????; ???????????, ??????????--??????? ????????, ????????????????. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; ???????????? ???-?????? ?????????, ????????? ???????? ???????????-???:? ???? ???? ????????, ???????? ???????--???????????-????????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????? ????????????????????, ????? ?????.? {?} 20 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. {P} Does the birth by a virgin change one iota from the above scripture in Deuteronomy 30 ? Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/848c33aa/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 10:39:48 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:39:48 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"]] Message-ID: <49B3E6C4.1010708@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/6553affb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:27:33 +0000 Size: 78307 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/6553affb/attachment.eml From MiriamL613 at aol.com Sun Mar 8 10:45:13 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:45:13 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Thanks for the welcome, Joe. Your article was great! A keeper. As for the messianic status of Jesus, I look at it this way. If his lineage approximates that in Matthew and he is of the physical seed of David and Solomon, there is no reason to rule him out as a potential King Messiah. If G-d went to the trouble of creating a man from Mary's seed alone, that would be a way of guaranteeing that his messianic role is not to be confused with that of the coming Messianic King. But as for his messianic role, that cannot be denied. In Rambam's Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 11:4, Rambam discussed the true messiah's role and explained it by referring to the passage in Zephaniah 3:9 "I will make the peoples pure of speech that they all will call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose." (Emphasis added) Then in the very same chapter, Rambam refers to the "deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him" saying, "Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for the Messiah's coming and the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as [Zephaniah 3:9] states, 'I will make the peoples pure of speech that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose." This role, obviously, will come into greater focus as the teachings of both are brought into the light and the billions who claim to follow them actually do just that. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/5a343d18/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 8 11:23:13 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH.] In-Reply-To: <49B3AD19.6070609@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <732051.29348.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shalom, Joe: ? I pray that Australia will be mercifully spared from great destruction from Hamish. May Hashem protect his segulah and may?they cling to Him. Your country?and its people must be very precious to Hashem with all the judgment He is placing there.I pray also that many will respond to His wake up calls. ? Kind regards, ? Helen --- On Sun, 3/8/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH.] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 7:33 AM Shalom Chaverim, a special " molto grazie, todah rabbah, mucho gracias, merci beaucoup, dankeshon and thank you ALL for your prayers and support. B'Ahavat Yehudah v'Yisrael. JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/e9e30bc8/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 8 11:38:13 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 02:38:13 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] Message-ID: <49B3F475.8000006@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/8a4c8146/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MiriamL613 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:45:13 EDT Size: 8484 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/8a4c8146/attachment.eml From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 12:22:05 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:22:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH./ addenda In-Reply-To: <200903080510.n285Ankp028723@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au><200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> <200903080510.n285Ankp028723@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Steve and Charlene and Joe. If this "burning tempest" is from HaShem, and is being sent to return our ONE HEART to the HEART of our Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (which of course, is ultimately to HaShem), I shudder to think what must be shortly in store for the USA as well. May G-d have Mercy on us all. May we Return to Him with all our Heart. Two thousand years ago, a Rabbi taught his followers to pray this prayer: "OUR ABBA, IN HEAVEN, HOLY (KADOSH) IS YOUR NAME. YOUR KINGDOM COME, YOUR WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, AND FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US. LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL, FOR YOU, HASHEM, ARE THE KINGDOM, AND THE POWER, AND THE GLORY FOREVER. AMEIN." May we heed those words and remember WHO our FATHER (ABBA) IS! HASHEM IS our KING, and to Him is due all POWER AND GLORY FOREVER! This world belongs to Him! His NAME is HOLY (KADOSH)! He is the ONE AND ONLY ONE Who can give us our daily bread, forgive our sins, and deliver us from evil! According to the Prophet, Zecharia, the next thing we should be looking for on the World Scene is a most unusual phenomenon in which we will see people actually going out in search of a Rabbi again! "TEN MEN" - a term representing Israel's TEN LOST TRIBES, who are scattered among all the tongues of the nations will be irresistibly drawn to the Jews!!!!! They will go out looking for a Rabbi, asking to take hold of his Tzit-Tzit, crying out to be taught, saying, "WE WILL GO WITH YOU, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT G-D IS WITH YOU"!!!!!!! "Thus saith the L-RD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard THAT G-D IS WITH YOU." Zecharia 8:23 Shalom v'Ahavah, Yisrael, Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH./ addenda My wife Charlene came across a verse that also fits; am adding / including it as a commentary addenda below: She says it says somewhere in the Torah: "God's fateful blows." At 08:50 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: Chaverim, Please add to your prayers for Australia that people there may wake up to the meaning of these disasters to be Divine wake-up calls. It is God who sends the spirit of repentance when we are blind and deaf to what is going on. "For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring;" -- Isa. 44:3 "Upon the wicked He will cause to rain coals; fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup." (the KJV uses the words " a horrible tempest" instead of "burning wind." The Oxford marginal note says the Hebrew means "a burning tempest" Steve At 04:56 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: Shalom Chaverim, Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish. Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with 60% of our state under water. Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring 4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two words: esh- fire and mayim- water. Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness and Judgement. Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines his attributes. So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane the consequences will be dire. Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English for "Yacov" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/514ce555/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 12:52:47 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:52:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Message-ID: Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/24b5fbdf/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Mar 8 12:56:40 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:56:40 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH./ addenda In-Reply-To: References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> <200903080450.n284oXfV005800@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> <200903080510.n285Ankp028723@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200903081756.n28HueGV031787@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Shalom All, The secretary of state, Hillary Clinton's, and her boss's gift of $900 million to the Hamas murderers of Gaza bodes terrible curses to come upon our land and the constituents of this administration. A large portion of this generation has sided with the evil forces of our times. All these things also signal that the time of our Redemption is drawing nigh and we need to be doing what we are called to do. Here is a new topic: What are we called to be doing? Steve At 10:22 AM 3/8/2009, you wrote: >Thank you, Steve and Charlene and Joe. If this "burning tempest" >is from HaShem, and is being sent to return our ONE HEART to the >HEART of our Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (which of course, is >ultimately to HaShem), I shudder to think what must be shortly in >store for the USA as well. May G-d have Mercy on us all. May we >Return to Him with all our Heart. > >Two thousand years ago, a Rabbi taught his followers to pray this prayer: > >"OUR ABBA, IN HEAVEN, HOLY (KADOSH) IS YOUR NAME. YOUR KINGDOM >COME, YOUR WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. GIVE US THIS >DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, AND FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO >SIN AGAINST US. LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM >EVIL, FOR YOU, HASHEM, ARE THE KINGDOM, AND THE POWER, AND THE GLORY >FOREVER. AMEIN." > >May we heed those words and remember WHO our FATHER >(ABBA) IS! HASHEM IS our KING, and to Him is due all POWER AND >GLORY FOREVER! This world belongs to Him! His NAME is HOLY >(KADOSH)! He is the ONE AND ONLY ONE Who can give us our daily >bread, forgive our sins, and deliver us from evil! > >According to the Prophet, Zecharia, the next thing we should be >looking for on the World Scene is a most unusual phenomenon in >which we will see people actually >going out in search of a Rabbi again! "TEN MEN" - a term >representing Israel's TEN LOST TRIBES, who are scattered among all >the tongues of the nations will be irresistibly drawn to the >Jews!!!!! They will go out looking for a Rabbi, asking to take hold >of his Tzit-Tzit, crying out to be taught, saying, "WE WILL GO WITH >YOU, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT G-D IS WITH YOU"!!!!!!! > >"Thus saith the L-RD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, >that ten men shall shall take hold, out of all the languages of >the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, >saying: We will go with you, for we have heard >THAT G-D IS WITH YOU." >Zecharia 8:23 > > >Shalom v'Ahavah, Yisrael, > >Avigail > >From: Steve Mathe >Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:10 AM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH./ addenda > >My wife Charlene came across a verse that also fits; am adding / >including it as a commentary addenda below: She says it says >somewhere in the Torah: "God's fateful blows." > > >At 08:50 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: > > >>Chaverim, >> >>Please add to your prayers for Australia that people there may wake >>up to the meaning of these disasters to be Divine wake-up >>calls. It is God who sends the spirit of repentance when we are >>blind and deaf to what is going on. >> >> "For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon >> the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My >> blessing upon thine offspring;" -- Isa. 44:3 > > "Upon the wicked He will cause to rain coals; fire and brimstone > and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup." >>(the KJV uses the words " a horrible tempest" instead of "burning >>wind." The Oxford marginal note says the Hebrew means "a burning tempest" >> >>Steve >> >> >> >>At 04:56 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >>>Shalom Chaverim, >>> >>>Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe >>>Tropical Cyclone Hamish. >>> >>>Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with >>>60% of our state under water. >>>Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with >>>over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. >>> >>>A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring >>>4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. >>> >>>The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two >>>words: esh- fire and mayim- water. >>>Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to >>>Righteousness and Judgement. >>>Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. >>> >>>This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines >>>his attributes. >>> >>>So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. >>> >>>Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland >>>coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. >>>If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane >>>the consequences will be dire. >>> >>>Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the >>>English for "Yacov" > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/6101abea/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Mar 8 13:25:31 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:25:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/18b0e810/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 13:28:27 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:28:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY In-Reply-To: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> References: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> Message-ID: Thank you, Dear One! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/afce97de/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Mar 8 13:29:24 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:29:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY In-Reply-To: References: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> Message-ID: <057b01c9a01b$d0715820$71540860$@com> Hi Pat, will you be attending the conference in April? Hope to see you! patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Thank you, Dear One! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/a800eb77/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 13:56:22 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:56:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY In-Reply-To: <057b01c9a01b$d0715820$71540860$@com> References: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> <057b01c9a01b$d0715820$71540860$@com> Message-ID: Doesn't look likely at this time, but I'll know better when it gets closer. Would love to see you too! Your music was heavenly last year, as was the Roots of Faith singers, and Tracy's of course!!!! Unforgettable teaching, music, fun and fellowship! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Hi Pat, will you be attending the conference in April? Hope to see you! patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Thank you, Dear One! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/2a270360/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Mar 8 14:15:43 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:15:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU In-Reply-To: References: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> <057b01c9a01b$d0715820$71540860$@com> Message-ID: <059a01c9a022$48992ca0$d9cb85e0$@com> Hi Pat, I sure hope you can make it. We will make sure you get a CD. Love, patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Doesn't look likely at this time, but I'll know better when it gets closer. Would love to see you too! Your music was heavenly last year, as was the Roots of Faith singers, and Tracy's of course!!!! Unforgettable teaching, music, fun and fellowship! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Hi Pat, will you be attending the conference in April? Hope to see you! patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Thank you, Dear One! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/892057cc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:07:12 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:07:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU In-Reply-To: <059a01c9a022$48992ca0$d9cb85e0$@com> References: <056a01c9a01b$45a32250$d0e966f0$@com> <057b01c9a01b$d0715820$71540860$@com> <059a01c9a022$48992ca0$d9cb85e0$@com> Message-ID: Thank you, Patty! That's terrific!!! Whether I make or not, I'm excited to think of all the new people on the List who may be able to be there. Just wish all our Aussie friends could be there too! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Hi Pat, I sure hope you can make it. We will make sure you get a CD. Love, patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Doesn't look likely at this time, but I'll know better when it gets closer. Would love to see you too! Your music was heavenly last year, as was the Roots of Faith singers, and Tracy's of course!!!! Unforgettable teaching, music, fun and fellowship! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Hi Pat, will you be attending the conference in April? Hope to see you! patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Thank you, Dear One! Pat From: Patty Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Oh Pat, I am utterly speechless here. I honestly don't remember what you said that could have been so bad. My memory of events is that I was being a bit contentious and for this I apologize. Thank you for this most heartwarming message. Maybe we all continue to live together in Peace and Harmony with the Lovingkindness that you have shown us here. Love, Shalom, Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] APOLOGY TO PATTY Dear Patty, My apology to you has been incomplete. I am writing this to you through the list because those who witnessed my sin against you last summer because of a note I wrote to the List, need to witness my apology. I included in my note back then Scriptural references regarding Ephraim. As I was looking them up, I came across one which I should have skipped over. I should not have included that Scripture with the others I was quoting because it became a personal attack. The Rabbis teach that if one humiliates their brother, it is as though he murdered him. I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THE HUMILIATION I CAUSED YOU. I appreciate your kind and loving spirit, and the forgiveness you have already freely given me, but it is necessary that I apologize to you once more. The Rabbinc teaching that I so callously disregarded in making my point is one of utmost importance in man's relationship with their fellow man. May G-d help me to never cross that line again. Sincerely and in love, Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/ceaebe99/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Mar 8 17:32:44 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:32:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am way, way behind on my email.just say this.and agree that it is a great idea! Please count me in. I would very much like to read a portion of the parsha Nitzvaim, which is the parsha that was read the week that Roger and I converted. As David would say, Shalom! Shalom! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah This is truly an amazing idea...please send it to the UI List. James On Mar 7, 2009, at 6:05 PM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/f976f795/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Mar 8 17:38:28 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:38:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: References: <49B325B0.4000306@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <0CC06B62B2A041539E13DD1DD1F0B38B@bettylaptop> My prayers are with you and all and your beautiful land as well, Joe! I am behind on email and trying to catch up, but look forward to reading your posts as time permits. Shavua Tov and may HaShem's blessings be upon you and your country and its people! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Thank you, Joe, for alerting us to pray concerning this new threat to your beautiful land. May HaShem show Mercy to Australia, and to us all. Am joining you in asking Him to safeguard the south east corner just north of Brisbane from this cyclone's destruction. Have appreciated reading your recent posts, and am so very glad you have been able to send them to us. To you also (Gam l'attah?) Shalom v'Ahavah, Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Shalom Chaverim, Australia is just about to be hit by another major event, Severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish. Over the past month, North Queensland has had major flooding with 60% of our state under water. Victoria has been scorched by the recent horrendous bushfires with over 200 human victims, not to mention the wildlife and flora. A couple of days ago Melbourne was hit by an earthquake measuring 4.7 . Baruch HaShem .... no casualties. The Hebrew word for "Heaven" is "Shamayim" which is made up of two words: esh- fire and mayim- water. Esh is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Righteousness and Judgement. Mayim is the character trait of HaShem which relates to Mercy. This teaches us that Heaven is HaShem's Abode where he intertwines his attributes. So Australia is in the midst of this precedence. Now, we have Cyclone Hamish which is bearing down the Queensland coast with wind gusts up to 300 km/hr. If it strikes the south east corner near or just north of Brisbane the consequences will be dire. Hamish is the Scottish name for "James" which in turn is the English for "Yacov" Island resorts in the Great Barrier Reef are battening down as north Queenslanders prepare for severe Tropical Cyclone Hamish which has now been upgraded to a Category 5. Tourists have been evacuated and residents are preparing for the worst. Whitehaven Bay in the Whitsunday Islands. May HaShem have mercy on us. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/f5f5ac51/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 35010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/f5f5ac51/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 21082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/f5f5ac51/attachment-0001.jpe From MiriamL613 at aol.com Sun Mar 8 22:29:44 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 23:29:44 EDT Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2009 12:38:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jid at westnet.com.au writes: However it must also be stated that in Rambam's "Mishneh Torah - Hilchot Melachim" 11:4 , it states just before your quotation: "Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of the Messiah as the redeemer of Israel and its saviour, who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the Mitzvot.>> Of course. And what we see here is the extreme contrast between what the Jesus and his original followers taught and what Christianity became somewhere between the end of the 1st century CE and the takeover of Rome. So there's a process because, as we near the end days, we have the ability to sort out the original intent from its subsequent evolution. Thirty years after Jesus died, in Acts 15, his followers were discussing whether or not the Gentiles should be required to observe the entire Torah in order to become fellow Christians. The church has yet to face up to the implication here; one does not discuss and debate whether Gentiles should be required to observe the entire Torah unless all the Jewish followers remained bound by the entire Torah. Over the past 1800 years, this fact has been missing in Christian theology. Yet it's there and some day will be dealt with in its proper context. Similarly, Islam will one day take a good look at the pre-Christian Dead Sea Scrolls and notice that the post-Christian Torah is identical to the pre-Christian Torah. And since they are locked into the Quran which says that "Jesus came to confirm the Torah previously revealed," a believing Muslim will see that there could not have been a change in the Torah made by the Jews. The Torah which Christianity holds sacred is virtually identical to the Torah of the Jews. Why wouldn't Christianity have a "corrected" version had Jesus actually confirmed (and therefore corrected) the Torah? There could be no further reasonable dispute about who should possess the Land promised by G-d to the sons of Jacob, certainly not on the basis of a popular Muslim belief that the Torah has been changed and is no longer relevant. So way beyond the generations of pain and suffering, the future of unity through Torah looks bright. Hinei mah tov, umah naim, shevet achim gam yachad! Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090308/a1166794/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 8 23:03:10 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 04:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <030920090403.21572.49B494FE000428CE0000544422218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Bravo Miriam! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from MiriamL613 at aol.com: -------------- In a message dated 3/8/2009 12:38:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jid at westnet.com.au writes: However it must also be stated that in Rambam's "Mishneh Torah - Hilchot Melachim" 11:4 , it states just before your quotation: "Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of the Messiah as the redeemer of Israel and its saviour, who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the Mitzvot.>> Of course. And what we see here is the extreme contrast between what the Jesus and his original followers taught and what Christianity became somewhere between the end of the 1st century CE and the takeover of Rome. So there's a process because, as we near the end days, we have the ability to sort out the original intent from its subsequent evolution. Thirty years after Jesus died, in Acts 15, his followers were discussing whether or not the Gentiles should be required to observe the entire Torah in order to become fellow Christians. The church has yet to face up to the implication here; one does not discuss and debate whether Gentiles should be required to observe the entire Torah unless all the Jewish followers remained bound by the entire Torah. Over the past 1800 years, this fact has been missing in Christian theology. Yet it's there and some day will be dealt with in its proper context. Similarly, Islam will one day take a good look at the pre-Christian Dead Sea Scrolls and notice that the post-Christian Torah is identical to the pre-Christian Torah. And since they are locked into the Quran which says that "Jesus came to confirm the Torah previously revealed," a believing Muslim will see that there could not have been a change in the Torah made by the Jews. The Torah which Christianity holds sacred is virtually identical to the Torah of the Jews. Why wouldn't Christianity have a "corrected" version had Jesus actually confirmed (and therefore corrected) the Torah? There could be no further reasonable dispute about who should possess the Land promised by G-d to the sons of Jacob, certainly not on the basis of a popular Muslim belief that the Torah has been changed and is no longer relevant. So way beyond the generations of pain and suffering, the future of unity through Torah looks bright. Hinei mah tov, umah naim, shevet achim gam yachad! Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/27902215/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Sun Mar 8 23:13:31 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 00:13:31 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/7/2009 11:27:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes: It doesn't address the prophetic statement regarding a virgin birth associated with mashiach (Isaiah 7:14). I bring this up not to contest the conclusions but because the proponents of the virgin birth validity see this passage as confirmation. I think it must be discussed. I don't think it necessarily excludes Yeshua from messiah-ship, the whole issue of "dual messiah" (messiah ben Judah, messiah ben Joseph) is not discussed.>> It's quite true that there can be multiple interpretations of prophesies and I have seen many intepretations of Isaiah 53 as applying both to Israel as a whole and to the Messiah specifically. However, I have never seen anything in Jewish commentaries which suggests that Isaiah 7:14 had anything to do either with a virgin or with the messiah. The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah" - and the Hebrew word translated by most Christian bibles in Isaiah 7:14 is "alma" which means "young woman." There are vast amounts of discussions about the messiah in the midrash and legends, and none of them suggest that he would be born of a virgin. One would think that both Matthew and Luke, in taking the time to trace Jesus's paternal lineage, would make a point of mentioning this very unusual aspect, i.e., a son being created from the seed of Mary. Why not trace Mary's lineage! Matthew is very specific that all the men and their sons mentioned in Chapter 1 led to the birth of the husband of Mary. (1:16) Why bother talking about her husband's lineage if hers was so much more significant and meaningful? My personal opinion is that the Joseph mentioned as the husband of Mary, in Matthew, was the physical father of Jesus. They were betrothed when she conceived, so with or without sexual relations, Mary's husband was the daddy. Not divorcing her would have been a virtual admission of fatherhood, because there's no option for a Jewish man to stay married to a woman who willingly had sexual relations with another man. He would have been required to divorce her. As for the dual messiah concept in Judaism, the Messiah son of Joseph refers not simply to any man named Joseph, but Joseph the son of Jacob, through his son Ephraim. It's a completely different tribe and needs to result in a completely different person. The only time the midrash ever contemplates them both being the same person would be via reincarnation. The Land of Israel was divided into sections to be inherited by each specific tribe. If one man was as much a member of his mother's tribe as of his father's tribe, then a son whose father was of the tribe of Judah and whose mother was of the tribe of Benjamin could have both lineages. Then if he married a woman whose parents were of the tribe of Dan and of the tribe of Asher, the offspring would have all four tribal lineages. Within a few generations, every Jew would have all 12 tribal lineages! and, in effect, have none. It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line. If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood, he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism. Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/03cc9062/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Mar 8 23:51:47 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 00:51:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Thissa Message-ID: Tonight was the start of my new series on the weekly torah portion. The Torah reading for this coming Sabbath is Ki Thissa. I have posted my class (audio file) as well as my blog entry. I also tried to attach a pdf. Check it out. _http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/08/ki-thissa.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/08/ki-thissa.htm) In the next couple of days I hope to have my first audio file with your voices reading the Holy torah. Here are the sections for which I need volunteer readers in the next couple of days. I have not had a chance to read all of my email so please email me again (privately) if you are interested in reading one of the following sections. For this week, you will need to know how to make and send an audio file. We are working hard to prevent the lack of technical knowledge from allowing all others to participate. Stay tuned. Date Parsha Aliyah Reading # of verses Name of Reader 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 1 Exodus 30:11 - 31:17 45 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 2 Exodus 31:18 - 33:11 47 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 3 Exodus 33:12 - 33:16 5 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 4 Exodus 33:17 - 33:23 7 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 5 Exodus 34:1 - 34:9 9 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 6 Exodus 34:10 - 34:26 17 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 7 Exodus 34:27 - 34:35 9 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa maf Numbers 19:1 - 19:22 (Shabbat Parah) 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa Haftara Ezekiel 36:16 - 36:38 (Shabbat Parah) (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/08/ki-thissa.htm) Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/4d1d5ff5/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:02:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 05:02:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! Message-ID: <855590370903090502y269f0c0bo44ff1b71cc02b977@mail.gmail.com> VERY interesting article...Purim Sameach! * Hanoch* ** Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Facts of Purim' Like every Jewish historic festival, Purim is a rather blood-thirsty celebration. On Pesach, God made himself known to Israelites specifically by wholesale killing of the Egyptians (Exodus 7:5, 14:17). Jews also were less than politically correct then: the only time the Torah applies the word neighbor to our opponents is when we borrowed jewelry from the Egyptians without meaning to give it back. On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to introduce some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian into Roman protectorate. On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged nine months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther?s people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8), and Mordechai was appointed in his stead. It is unthinkable, in that order of events, for the planned massacre against Jews to be carried out. In the Middle Eastern customs, an edict not actively lobbied for was doomed to oblivion, and with Haman?s demise Jews were safe despite the fact that the Artaxerxes? murderous edict could not be formally rescinded. The celebration marks Jews killing ?those who hated them? (9:1). It was not ?an eye for an eye? retaliation or even the rabbinical, ?That who comes to slay you, slay him first? because the midrash relates that the haters? children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek?s King Agag whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman debacle befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced ?the mercy of fools? ? after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who would have had no mercy upon us. The Haman?s example follows the Torah?s exterminatory logic. God commanded Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish to leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to remain, the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will hate and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai?s leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters alive ? and killed them. Leaving the haters? children would have just perpetuated the violence as the children grow and take revenge. Jews prevailed over the enemies on the 13th of the month of Adar (9:1). On the 14th, Jews rested (9:18) and killed choice enemies (v.14). When we celebrate Purim on the 14th, it is about killing the enemies rather than saving ourselves. This may sound odd for those taught the nonsense that Judaism is love. Sorry, then. Jews are only commanded to love their law-observant neighbors; enemies and transgressors must be hated and done away with. Jews are normal, and like other people we are entitled to hate and kill our enemies; we killed Hamas? Ahmed Yasin together with his family just as 2,500 years we hanged Haman with his sons. And in case you were told there is no Amalek today, Rashi is adamant in equating Amalek with Germans, and Israeli Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi implied clearly that Arabs are Amalek. If you want consolation, take it in the fact that European settlers conquered America in precisely the biblical manner, exterminated the natives, and created a nice liberal country in the occupied territories. Two hundred years from now, I?d love to be sorry for what we were doing to the natives in the Land of Israel when conquering it. On Purim, Jews must become drunk to the extent of not differentiating between blessing Mordechai and cursing Haman. In vino veritas. Drunken people forget the accretions of political correctness and return to the basic truth: Mordechai's blessing consists in Haman being cursed; his death is our reward. Lest Jews think that the Purim course of action is antiquated, the characters? names are suggestive: Mordechai from Marduk, and Esther from Astarte. The saviors were two assimilated Jews whose names even were pagan. One was a court Jew, another ? a Jewish leader eager to become court Jew. In the critical times, they have changed. You can leave a comment at http://samsonblinded.org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/95bcdbfe/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:08:33 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 05:08:33 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Message-ID: <855590370903090508q46305791m978ffdfa2509fee2@mail.gmail.com> Samson Blinded has posted a new item, *'Welcome to the end of time'* And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There is no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for subjugation to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is the man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic king needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." Some sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did so to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, imagined some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting peace and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to rebuild the Temple. Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state during the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully gathered the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish communities in Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was a Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, without the Jews rioting against the nations. The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was never a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our cousins, the children of Esau. Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of Seth" (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from Seth through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the messiah will fight the entire world. That?s something Israel might be eventually forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam meant the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with Egypt. Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land?s end (Mediterranean shore)." The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. Like in the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish community bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, Canada, West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its victims and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine plan. Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly dissociate from Jewishness. Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall not follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah considers good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very long period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don?t need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every recent generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir Kahane, Avraham Stern. God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a good number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward wind, blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The Purim miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot became madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. After all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after Yitzhak Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of Judea to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under the Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles. The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations ? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times ? hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged. There are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman of Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in Ukrainian pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and less prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. Our times saw the Cain?s curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced medical procedures help alleviate the women?s pain during childbirth. Advances in agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was there a shortage of doomsayers. I?m not eager to join their ridiculed ranks, but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar? watchers that the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near. Even Rambam, though quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, offered his own estimate, now long expired. God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn?t and perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will in 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then we sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a forty-year countdown? There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that?s a prophecy. The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman?s ten sons are hanged, and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the point home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, screamed ?The Purim 1946? at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed from the king?s decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in Siberia. There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such oddity can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God performs miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many coincidences. You can leave a comment at http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/7f4351c0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:14:52 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 05:14:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama vs Judea & Samaria Message-ID: <855590370903090514p15467f98r7afa940488661111@mail.gmail.com> Obama vs. Judea and Samaria from "Fundamentally Freund" - Michael Freund Israelnationalnews.com (IsraelNN.com) Barack Obama has been in office for just over 6 weeks, but he has already declared a quiet war against the heartland of the Jewish people. A report in Ha'aretz reveals that "Israel is under increased pressure from the United States over settlement construction. In the past month, since Barack Obama was sworn in as U.S. president, Israel has received four official complaints from members of the new administration regarding various issues linked to West Bank settlements". The "complaints" relate to the demolition of illegal Palestinian homes in eastern Jerusalem and various Israeli construction plans in Judea and Samaria. So even though Iran is speeding towards construction of a nuclear weapon, North Korea is threatening to test-fire a long-range missile, and Pakistan is engulfed by political turmoil and increasing Islamist terror, Mr. Obama is focusing his sights on pressuring Israel. It is simply outrageous that the US seeks to interfere in internal Israeli affairs, such as whether illegally-constructed homes should be demolished. Nowhere else in the world would such interference be tolerated - and Israel should pay it no heed. Judea and Samaria are the cradle of Jewish civilization, the place where our ancestors once walked thousands of years before the advent of Islam or the establishment of the PLO. What a shame that instead of seeking to bolster the Jewish return to Zion, Mr. Obama prefers to try and stand in its way. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/fce5d286/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Mar 9 07:19:41 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:19:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The clock is ticking..... In-Reply-To: <855590370903061218k742ee7c1w6e6802428e482c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903061218k742ee7c1w6e6802428e482c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008401c9a0b1$541afc40$0400a8c0@marvin> Hanoch, Very interesting article that we all should read carefully and take note of the day and hour we live in. The rapture doctrine of some forms of Christianity looks good after reading this article, but Im afraid the only thing we can do when the rain starts is get in the Ark. Hashem is our only stronghold and salvation. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The clock is ticking..... The Iran-Israel nuclear endgame is now much closer Iranian Threat, Israel Politics - Feb 26, 2009 Edwin Black In recent days, four key developments have clicked in to edge Iran and Israel much closer to a military denouement with profound consequences for American oil that the nation is not prepared to meet. What has happened? First, Iran has proven it can successfully launch a satellite into outer space as it did on February 2. Teheran claimed, to the incredulity of Western governments, that the satellite was to monitor earthquakes and enhance communications. Few believe that, especially since America's own space program continuously launches unpublished military satellite missions. Teheran plans three more satellites this year, creating an easily weaponized space net that worries American military planners. Second, the International Atomic Energy Agency last week admitted that it had underestimated Iran's nuclear stockpile by about one-third. The watchdog group now confirms Iran possesses 2,227 lbs. of nuclear material, sufficient to create at least one nuclear bomb. That stockpile includes 1,010 kilograms of low-enriched uranium hexafluoride, or approximately 700 kilograms containing the vital uranium 235 isotope, the stuff needed to weaponize. Third, Iran has ramped up its enrichment program with thousands of new homegrown, highly advanced centrifuges. As The Cutting Edge News reported in April 2008, Iran wants 6,000 centrifuges to speed the enrichment of weapons-grade material. The number of working centrifuges now exceeds 5,400, including 164 new ones believed to be the faster and more efficient IR-2 and IR-3 models made in Iran. These new Iranian centrifuges are at least as sophisticated as its recently imported P-2 models. American policymakers are now convinced that Iran, despite all protests and charades, is in a mad dash to create a deliverable nuclear weapon. The Obama administration has almost openly abandoned the assertions of the CIA's much-questioned 2008 National Intelligence Estimate that concluded Iran was not pursuing nuclear weaponry for the simple reason that its atomic program and military programs were housed in separate buildings. Fourth, Binyamin Netanyahu has just become prime minister of Israel. He is determined to take action before - not after - Iran achieves its nuclear potential. This creates a volatile, hair-trigger situation that could explode at any moment. Hence, the endgame is now vastly closer than it was in mid-January, when many believed Israel might take action during the lame-duck interregnum. Israeli countermeasures to date have included a massive international covert program of equipment sabotage, assassination of key nuclear personnel and a vibrant diplomatic offensive. But all these efforts combined amount to nothing more than delaying tactics, as Iran is irrevocably determined to achieve a nuclear weapon as fast as possible. Many believe such a weapon will be used to fulfill its prediction that Israel will soon be wiped off the map. THE CONSEQUENCES for this confrontation are apocalyptic because Iran's full partner in this enterprise is Russia. The Russian company Atomstroiexport has provided most if not all of the nuclear material for the 1,000 megawatt Bushehr reactor, along with thousands of technicians to service and operate it. Following its invasion of Georgia, Moscow forged ahead with final delivery plans for the S-300 advanced air defense system which can track scores of IAF airborne intruders simultaneously, whether low-level drones or high-altitude missiles, and shoot them down. But the S-300, the linchpin of Iran's defense against Israel, will not be fully operational for several months, creating a narrow window for Israel to act. Indeed, Russia has just announced a pause in missile deliveries for the system in fear that it will accelerate an Israeli response. Iran, of course, has repeatedly threatened to counter any such attack by closing the Strait of Hormuz, as well as launching missiles against the Ras Tanura Gulf oil terminal and bombarding the indispensable Saudi oil facility at Abqaiq which is responsible for some 65 percent of Saudi production. Any one of these military options, let alone all three, would immediately shut off 40% of all seaborne oil, 18% of global oil, and some 20% of America's daily consumption. America's oil vulnerability has been back-burnered due to the economic crisis and the plunge in gasoline prices. However, the price of gasoline will not mitigate an interruption of oil flow. The price of oil does not impact its ability to flow through blocked or destroyed facilities. Indeed, an interruption would not restore prices to those of last summer - which Russian and Saudi oil officials say is needed - but probably zoom the pump cost to $20 per gallon. American oil vulnerability in recent months has escalated precisely because of oil's precipitous drop to $35 to $40 a barrel. At that price, America's number one supplier, Canada, which supplies some 2 million out of 20 million barrels of oil a day, cannot afford to produce. Canadian oil sand petroleum is not viable below $70 a barrel. Much of Canada's supply has already been cancelled or indefinitely postponed. America's strategic petroleum reserve can only keep that country moving for approximately 57 days. THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, like the Bush administration before it, has developed no plan or contingency legislation for an oil interruption, such as a surge in retrofitting America's 250 million gas guzzling cars and trucks - each with a 10-year life - or a stimulus of the alternate fuel production needed to rapidly get off oil. Ironically, Iran has undertaken such a crash program converting some 20% of its gasoline fleet yearly to compressed natural gas (CNG) as a countermeasure to Western nuclear sanctions against the Teheran regime that could completely block the flow of gasoline to Iran. Iran has no refining capability. The question of when and how this endgame will play out is not known by anyone. Israeli leaders wish to avoid military preemption at all costs if possible. But many feel the military moment must come; and when that moment does come, it will be swift, highly technologic and in the twinkling of an eye. But as one informed official quipped, "Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know." The writer is The New York Times best-selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and the just released The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops - or the Day Before (Dialog Press). 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here. Website copyright C 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/62c07c7f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:20:50 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 05:20:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Lost Jews group..." Message-ID: <855590370903090520k48785bd2jb259a1fb74b41d4b@mail.gmail.com> An interesting read, on many levels.. * Hanoch* Lost Jews group shifts focus to Galilee By Cnaan Liphshiz - Haaretz 06/03/2009 Following criticism from left-wing politicians, the immigration-assistance group Shavei Israel has stopped settling immigrants in the West Bank, directing them to the Galilee instead. "We did it to stop ideological issues from blinding people to our cause," says Michael Freund, the U.S.-born founder and president of the nongovernmental organization, which focuses on bringing back lost Jewish communities around the world into the fold of Judaism. "We saw that even though our activity in reality had nothing to do with politics, we still had to break out of being viewed as some kind of right-wing organization," he added. Advertisement Shavei Israel was founded by Freund in 2004 and is funded by private donations. It has a permanent staff of a dozen educators and rabbinic figures in its Jerusalem head office and a similar-sized group of employees and emissaries working in nine different countries. One of the group's major projects has been facilitating the immigration into Israel of 1,500 members of the Bnei Menashe - people from northeast India who claim descent from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. "The last 450 Bnei Menashe we've brought have all gone to live in Ma'alot, Karmiel and Upper Nazareth," says Freund. But the previous 1,000 Bnei Menashe who arrived went to live in settlements. "We got flack for this," he says. "Most of our problems have come from certain people on the left." According to Freund, placing Bnei Menashe in settlements was a purely pragmatic decision. "While studying here for a year for their conversion, the Bnei Menashe are on a tourist visa and not eligible for any government assistance or support," he explains. The only places willing to offer support, Freund says, were settlements. "We tried in places like Dimona and Mitzpeh Ramon. They were happy to have more people, but they didn't have the resources to take them in." *'Caesarea, Hadera, wherever'* Freund, who immigrated to Israel in 1995 from New York and now lives in Ra'anana, recalls a conversation in Hebrew with former interior minister Ophir Paz-Pines of Labor, who called the housing pattern of the Bnei Menashe "a delirious ruse undertaken by rightists to fill settlements," according to Freund. "I didn't understand his objections, but I offered that to sign a document saying he would decide where they go," says Freund. "Caesarea, Hadera, wherever. I told him we just want to bring them to Israel. But it's hard to break out of how everything is political in many people's minds." The founder of Shavei Israel concedes he expected more resistance from the hardline religious establishment than the left-wing because they have more conservative views toward conversion. "Our relations with the rabbinate are actually quite good," he says. It was the story of the Bnei Menashe that launched Freund on his path. Sitting as a kosher cafe in Ra'anana, he says he first heard about them while working at the Prime Minister's Office in media relations during Benjamin Netanyahu's first stint as premier. In dealing with immigrants with exotic appearances, Freund says he has come to see "a shocking aspect" of Israeli society. "I didn't grow up in this society, so I was surprised to see a lot of racist sentiment. Even in circles that deem themselves liberal and enlightened, many make disparaging and improper comments." He cites comments by the incumbent interior minister, Kadima's Meir Sheetrit. When Sheetrit, who was born in the small village of Ksar El-Suk in southern Morocco, was appointed as minister, he warned against making Israel "a foreign legion nation" by accepting "various refugees claiming to be Jewish." Sheetrit, according to Freund, "is no fan" of Shavei Israel. "I very much hope the change in government will mean good things for our activities," Freund says. For its own part, Shavei Israel tries to be careful not to get carried away by its mission to find lost Jews, according to Freund. "Whenever Shavei Israel goes into a new community, skepticism is our point of departure. It's very easy to get swept away and start finding Jews wherever one wants to. We have to be very careful, because there are of course people who are motivated by economic factors. But that doesn't mean we should shy away from it." With recent data indicating that assimilation among Western Jews is as high as 70 percent in some countries, Freund hesitantly says that bringing back so called "lost-Jews" is not "the answer to assimilation, but it's one of the answers." He explains, "You can't look at it quantitatively, but if a serious effort is undertaken, we can definitely bring back tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands." According to Freund, there are another 7,000 Bnei Menashe in India waiting to immigrate. Another 15,000 Subbotnik Jews - descendants of Russian peasants who converted to Judaism over 200 years ago - could yield some immigrants, along with some Polish "hidden Jews" from the Holocaust. But the group with the biggest potential is the Bnei Anusim - descendants of Jews from Spain, Portugal and South America who were forcibly converted to Christianity during the Spanish Inquisition era. "If only 10 percent of Bnei Anusim come back, it will be a return of large numbers of people," he says. "There is a reason to work there." ------------------------------ Need a job? Find employment help in your -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/40651555/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Mar 9 07:24:04 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:24:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Thissa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C88C34C-5C2B-4F04-A59B-E2CCEC4AA529@earthlink.net> Ross, Congratulations on a great new beginning. I truly think these new efforts, to focus on YHVH's Torah, are going to bring great benefit to thousands. I had already written you that I would like to have #5 here, Exodus 34:1-9, one of my very favorite passages. Since it is short, and if you don't get enough people, I can take one of the others as well, perhaps #4 would make the most sense, leading up to it. I wanted to second Steve Mathe's suggestion that we go with the 1917 JPS which is on the Web and in the public domain. I think it is vital that we use a Jewish translation, not a Christian one, and this is by far the most literal and polished in terms of literary style, very much like the KJV. Have a good week! James On Mar 9, 2009, at 12:51 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > Tonight was the start of my new series on the weekly torah portion. > The Torah reading for this coming Sabbath is Ki Thissa. I have > posted my class (audio file) as well as my blog entry. I also tried > to attach a pdf. Check it out. http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/08/ki-thissa.htm > > In the next couple of days I hope to have my first audio file with > your voices reading the Holy torah. Here are the sections for which > I need volunteer readers in the next couple of days. I have not had > a chance to read all of my email so please email me again > (privately) if you are interested in reading one of the following > sections. For this week, you will need to know how to make and send > an audio file. We are working hard to prevent the lack of technical > knowledge from allowing all others to participate. Stay tuned. > > > Date Parsha Aliyah Reading # of verses Name of Reader > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 1 Exodus 30:11 - 31:17 45 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 2 Exodus 31:18 - 33:11 47 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 3 Exodus 33:12 - 33:16 5 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 4 Exodus 33:17 - 33:23 7 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 5 Exodus 34:1 - 34:9 9 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 6 Exodus 34:10 - 34:26 17 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa 7 Exodus 34:27 - 34:35 9 > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa maf Numbers 19:1 - 19:22 (Shabbat Parah) > 14-Mar-09 Ki Tisa Haftara Ezekiel 36:16 - 36:38 (Shabbat Parah) > > > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > Need a job? Find employment help in your area. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/1c1f1906/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 08:37:05 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:37:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! Message-ID: Personally I have never read something like this article beyond the pale of Arab propaganda sites,white supremist sites and the ever so popular dispenser of hate, Jewwatch. I find it incredible that anyone could look at the story of the Passover, dismiss where G-d redeemed Israel from brutal slavery, infanticide, and oppression; then try to turn it into a story of thievery.The Midrash tells of when the Heavenly Court convened concerning the actions of the Egyptians , a building block containing the body of a Jewish male child was presented as evidence against Egypt and that sealed their punishment decree. Quite obviously the one who wrote this also didn't know about Chanukah.The Hellenic Jews were ones that had adopted Greek culture including worship of their gods.It wasn't some liberal movement.They had sided with the Greeks to destroy the belief in the One True G-d.The Greeks were far from having any tolerance for other religions,especially Judaism.The Greeks had even forced the sacrifice of pigs to their gods in the Holy Temple. Read the book of Hannah. Purim is a story of redemption and return.The celebration is for an end to the Exile,not over killing, not just because Haman was executed. Asheverus wore the robes of the High Priest at the feast in the beginning of the story as an insult and taunt because he thought the seventy year exile date had passed and the Jews were still not home, but the date he thought was it was wrong. Quite obvious also is the fact the decree was still in effect and going to be carried out. That is why the second decree the Jews could arm themselves was made. The author of this article even uses a reference to eye for an eye when in Jewish law that refers to monetary payment for a wrong, not a literal eye for an eye.He or she also uses the Midrash as a source, when the Midrash is stories and parables with a moral and not to be construed as fact or in any way binding to belief. As far as the claim about loving your neighbor, Judaism demands you do charity.It doesn't differentiate any man from being on the receiving end. If a man comes to you and says he is starving, you are obligated to feed him. To say no is totally forbidden.You are commanded to give 10% of your income to charity, but not more than 20% so you,yourself,don't become poverty stricken and need charity.Here are a few basic Judaic beliefs: Talmud: Tosefta,Saheddrin 13:The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come. Avos4:3:Do not despise any man Baba Kama 38a: Even a gentile that studies Torah is equal to a High Priest. Zohar: Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Hardly the violent and loveless faith the author depicts.He/she even tries to equate the death of a terrorist leader with a biblical equation to Haman. His claim of wanton drunkenness is completely off base. A person is obligated to become inebriated on Purim until he doesn't know the difference between "cursed is Haman" and "blessed is Mordechai." (Talmud Megillah 7b) We all wonder: Why does God permit, nay encourage, us to get drunk on Purim? It seems to be such an unholy, un-Jewish practice. Is all the fun and frolic with alcohol just Judaism's version of a college frat party?!Of course, the answer is a resounding "No." In fact, the Jews' realization in the days of Mordechai was on an even higher level. For while the Sinai experience was characterized by fear and awe, the Purim experience was one of drawing close to God through love. "Kimu v'Kiblu," the Megillah tells us: the Jews in the days of Mordechai accepted God's word in a way they had never before. On Purim, when we become drunk, we are saying that ultimately we don't even have enough faculties to know the difference between one who is cursed and who is blessed. We try to do what seems correct, but we realize that it is only God who knows what is right for us. And only He controls the world.If we can keep this in mind while in an inebriated state, and if we sing songs stressing these ideas at our Purim feast, we can hopefully carry this higher level of trust and belief in God on into all aspects of our lives. In closing reply to this, I'd like to add a little insight on how the finger of G-d is still working in this world. "If it pleases the king let the Jews of shushan be permitted to act tomorrow also as they did today and let Haman?s ten sons be impaled on the stake." But weren't the sons already dead? Weren't they hung already? Could be that "the king" here refers to The King, and that tomorrow = future tomorrow, not necessarily the day after today. Haman had 10 sons and a daughter (remember her? She committed suicide after realizing she dumped trash all over her father thinking it was Mordechai). In 1946, the Jewish year 5707, the Nuremberg Trials took place. Ten Nazi's were hung, and Goring, another Nazi known to have a 'thing' for women's clothes, committed suicide. In every correct megillah written, the ten sons of Haman are written the same way, in a column with three letters that are smaller than the rest. If I recall correctly, it's the Taf in Parshandata, the Shin in Parmashta and the Zain in Visata. Taf Shin Zain = 707. If you look at the Vav on the last name, Vasata, it's larger than the rest of the letters. The sixth time 707 came around was 5707. (First 707, then 1707, 2707, 3707, 4707, 5707). On October 16, 1946, as foreshadowed in the names of Haman's ten sons, ten Nazi leaders were hanged as war criminals. ... out of nowhere, with the rope around his neck, Julius Schtreicher - editor of Der Sturmer, the Nazi propaganda newspaper - shouted out with flaming hatred in his eyes, just as the trap door opened, 'Purimfest 1946'!" There were 11 Nazis slated to be killed that day. Only 10 were because one, Herman Goring committed suicide in his cell. ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! Date: 3/9/2009 8:02:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: VERY interesting article...Purim Sameach! Hanoch Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Facts of Purim' Like every Jewish historic festival, Purim is a rather blood-thirsty celebration. On Pesach, God made himself known to Israelites specifically by wholesale killing of the Egyptians (Exodus 7:5, 14:17). Jews also were less than politically correct then: the only time the Torah applies the word neighbor to our opponents is when we borrowed jewelry from the Egyptians without meaning to give it back. On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to introduce some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian into Roman protectorate. On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged nine months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther?s people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8), and Mordechai was appointed in his stead. It is unthinkable, in that order of events, for the planned massacre against Jews to be carried out. In the Middle Eastern customs, an edict not actively lobbied for was doomed to oblivion, and with Haman?s demise Jews were safe despite the fact that the Artaxerxes? murderous edict could not be formally rescinded. The celebration marks Jews killing ?those who hated them? (9:1). It was not ?an eye for an eye? retaliation or even the rabbinical, ?That who comes to slay you, slay him first? because the midrash relates that the haters? children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek?s King Agag whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman debacle befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced ?the mercy of fools? ? after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who would have had no mercy upon us. The Haman?s example follows the Torah?s exterminatory logic. God commanded Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish to leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to remain, the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will hate and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai?s leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters alive ? and killed them. Leaving the haters? children would have just perpetuated the violence as the children grow and take revenge. Jews prevailed over the enemies on the 13th of the month of Adar (9:1). On the 14th, Jews rested (9:18) and killed choice enemies (v.14). When we celebrate Purim on the 14th, it is about killing the enemies rather than saving ourselves. This may sound odd for those taught the nonsense that Judaism is love. Sorry, then. Jews are only commanded to love their law-observant neighbors; enemies and transgressors must be hated and done away with. Jews are normal, and like other people we are entitled to hate and kill our enemies; we killed Hamas? Ahmed Yasin together with his family just as 2,500 years we hanged Haman with his sons. And in case you were told there is no Amalek today, Rashi is adamant in equating Amalek with Germans, and Israeli Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi implied clearly that Arabs are Amalek. If you want consolation, take it in the fact that European settlers conquered America in precisely the biblical manner, exterminated the natives, and created a nice liberal country in the occupied territories. Two hundred years from now, I?d love to be sorry for what we were doing to the natives in the Land of Israel when conquering it. On Purim, Jews must become drunk to the extent of not differentiating between blessing Mordechai and cursing Haman. In vino veritas. Drunken people forget the accretions of political correctness and return to the basic truth: Mordechai's blessing consists in Haman being cursed; his death is our reward.. Lest Jews think that the Purim course of action is antiquated, the characters? names are suggestive: Mordechai from Marduk, and Esther from Astarte. The saviors were two assimilated Jews whose names even were pagan. One was a court Jew, another ? a Jewish leader eager to become court Jew. In the critical times, they have changed. You can leave a comment at _http://samsonblinded..org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm_ (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm) _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/a82a2dfc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 09:00:51 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:00:51 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903090700n7b5821d7m68efcb5ea21ba052@mail.gmail.com> Well, chances are that you probably don't want to subscribe to the SamsonBlinded blog.... * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 6:37 AM, wrote: > Personally I have never read something like this article beyond the > pale of Arab propaganda sites,white supremist sites and the ever so popular > dispenser of hate, Jewwatch. > > I find it incredible that anyone could look at the story of the > Passover, dismiss where G-d redeemed Israel from brutal slavery, > infanticide, and oppression; then try to turn it into a story of > thievery.The Midrash tells of when the Heavenly Court convened concerning > the actions of the Egyptians , a building block containing the body of a > Jewish male child was presented as evidence against Egypt and that sealed > their punishment decree. > > Quite obviously the one who wrote this also didn't know about > Chanukah.The Hellenic Jews were ones that had adopted Greek culture > including worship of their gods.It wasn't some liberal movement.They had > sided with the Greeks to destroy the belief in the One True G-d.The Greeks > were far from having any tolerance for other religions,especially > Judaism.The Greeks had even forced the sacrifice of pigs to their gods in > the Holy Temple. Read the book of Hannah. > > Purim is a story of redemption and return.The celebration is for an end > to the Exile,not over killing, not just because Haman was > executed. Asheverus wore the robes of the High Priest at the feast in the > beginning of the story as an insult and taunt because he thought the seventy > year exile date had passed and the Jews were still not home, but the date he > thought was it was wrong. > Quite obvious also is the fact the decree was still in effect and > going to be carried out. That is why the second decree the Jews could arm > themselves was made. > The author of this article even uses a reference to eye for an eye > when in Jewish law that refers to monetary payment for a wrong, not a > literal eye for an eye.He or she also uses the Midrash as a source, when the > Midrash is stories and parables with a moral and not to be construed as fact > or in any way binding to belief. > > As far as the claim about loving your neighbor, Judaism demands you do > charity.It doesn't differentiate any man from being on the receiving end. > If a man comes to you and says he is starving, you are obligated to feed > him. To say no is totally forbidden.You are commanded to give 10% of your > income to charity, but not more than 20% so you,yourself,don't become > poverty stricken and need charity.Here are a few basic Judaic beliefs: > Talmud: > Tosefta,Saheddrin 13:The righteous of all nations have a share in the World > to Come. > Avos4:3:Do not despise any man > Baba Kama 38a: Even a gentile that studies Torah is equal to a High Priest. > > Zohar: > Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any > individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the > Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. > > Hardly the violent and loveless faith the author depicts.He/she even > tries to equate the death of a terrorist leader with a biblical equation to > Haman. > > His claim of wanton drunkenness is completely off base. > > *A person is obligated to become inebriated on Purim until he doesn't know > the difference between "cursed is Haman" and "blessed is Mordechai." (Talmud > Megillah 7b)* > > We all wonder: Why does God permit, nay encourage, us to get drunk on > Purim? It seems to be such an unholy, un-Jewish practice. Is all the fun and > frolic with alcohol just Judaism's version of a college frat party?!Of > course, the answer is a resounding "No." In fact, the Jews' realization in > the days of Mordechai was on an even higher level. For while the Sinai > experience was characterized by fear and awe, the Purim experience was one > of drawing close to God through love. *"Kimu v'Kiblu,*" the Megillah tells > us: the Jews in the days of Mordechai accepted God's word in a way they had > never before. > > On Purim, when we become drunk, we are saying that ultimately we don't even > have enough faculties to know the difference between one who is cursed and > who is blessed. We try to do what seems correct, but we realize that it is > only God who knows what is right for us. And only He controls the world.If > we can keep this in mind while in an inebriated state, and if we sing songs > stressing these ideas at our Purim feast, we can hopefully carry this higher > level of trust and belief in God on into all aspects of our lives. > In closing reply to this, I'd like to add a little insight on how the > finger of G-d is still working in this world. > "If it pleases the king let the Jews of shushan be permitted to act > tomorrow also as they did today and let Haman?s ten sons be impaled on the > stake." > > But weren't the sons already dead? Weren't they hung already? > > Could be that "the king" here refers to The King, and that tomorrow = > future tomorrow, not necessarily the day after today. > > Haman had 10 sons and a daughter (remember her? She committed suicide after > realizing she dumped trash all over her father thinking it was Mordechai). > > In 1946, the Jewish year 5707, the Nuremberg Trials took place. Ten Nazi's > were hung, and Goring, another Nazi known to have a 'thing' for women's > clothes, committed suicide. > > In every correct megillah written, the ten sons of Haman are written the > same way, in a column with three letters that are smaller than the rest. If > I recall correctly, it's the Taf in Parshandata, the Shin in Parmashta and > the Zain in Visata. > > Taf Shin Zain = 707. > > If you look at the Vav on the last name, Vasata, it's *larger *than the > rest of the letters. The *sixth *time 707 came around was 5707. (First > 707, then 1707, 2707, 3707, 4707, 5707). > > On October 16, 1946, as foreshadowed in the names of Haman's ten sons, ten > Nazi leaders were hanged as war criminals. ... out of nowhere, with the rope > around his neck, Julius Schtreicher - editor of Der Sturmer, the Nazi > propaganda newspaper - shouted out with flaming hatred in his eyes, just as > the trap door opened, 'Purimfest 1946'!" There were 11 Nazis slated to be > killed that day. Only 10 were because one, Herman Goring committed suicide > in his cell. > > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *[Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!* Date: 3/9/2009 > 8:02:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > VERY interesting article...Purim Sameach! > * Hanoch* > ** > Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Facts of Purim' > > Like every Jewish historic festival, Purim is a rather blood-thirsty > celebration. > > On Pesach, God made himself known to Israelites specifically by wholesale > killing of the Egyptians (Exodus 7:5, 14:17). Jews also were less than > politically correct then: the only time the Torah applies the word neighbor > to > our opponents is when we borrowed jewelry from the Egyptians without > meaning to > give it back. > > On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish > ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to > introduce > some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The > Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian > into > Roman protectorate. > > On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged > nine > months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther?s > people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8), and Mordechai was appointed > in > his stead. It is unthinkable, in that order of events, for the planned > massacre > against Jews to be carried out. In the Middle Eastern customs, an edict not > actively lobbied for was doomed to oblivion, and with Haman?s demise Jews > were > safe despite the fact that the Artaxerxes? murderous edict could not be > formally rescinded. > > The celebration marks Jews killing ?those who hated them? (9:1). It was not > ?an eye for an eye? retaliation or even the rabbinical, ?That who comes to > slay you, slay him first? because the midrash relates that the haters? > children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a > belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek?s King Agag > whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman > debacle > befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced > ?the > mercy of fools? ? after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who > would have had no mercy upon us. > > The Haman?s example follows the Torah?s exterminatory logic. God commanded > Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish > to > leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be > exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to > remain, > the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will > hate > and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai?s > leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters > alive > ? and killed them. Leaving the haters? children would have just perpetuated > the violence as the children grow and take revenge. > > Jews prevailed over the enemies on the 13th of the month of Adar (9:1). On > the > 14th, Jews rested (9:18) and killed choice enemies (v.14). When we > celebrate > Purim on the 14th, it is about killing the enemies rather than saving > ourselves. > > > This may sound odd for those taught the nonsense that Judaism is love. > Sorry, > then. Jews are only commanded to love their law-observant neighbors; > enemies and > transgressors must be hated and done away with. Jews are normal, and like > other > people we are entitled to hate and kill our enemies; we killed Hamas? Ahmed > Yasin together with his family just as 2,500 years we hanged Haman with his > sons. And in case you were told there is no Amalek today, Rashi is adamant > in > equating Amalek with Germans, and Israeli Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi implied > clearly > that Arabs are Amalek. If you want consolation, take it in the fact that > European settlers conquered America in precisely the biblical manner, > exterminated the natives, and created a nice liberal country in the > occupied > territories. Two hundred years from now, I?d love to be sorry for what we > were > doing to the natives in the Land of Israel when conquering it. > > On Purim, Jews must become drunk to the extent of not differentiating > between > blessing Mordechai and cursing Haman. In vino veritas. Drunken people > forget the > accretions of political correctness and return to the basic truth: > Mordechai's > blessing consists in Haman being cursed; his death is our reward.. > > Lest Jews think that the Purim course of action is antiquated, the > characters? names are suggestive: Mordechai from Marduk, and Esther from > Astarte. The saviors were two assimilated Jews whose names even were pagan. > One > was a court Jew, another ? a Jewish leader eager to become court Jew. In > the > critical times, they have changed. > > You can leave a comment at > http://samsonblinded..org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/4093193e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 09:02:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:02:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! In-Reply-To: <855590370903090502y269f0c0bo44ff1b71cc02b977@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903090502y269f0c0bo44ff1b71cc02b977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370903090702y1c2fca15m9322e4e5b4f46a76@mail.gmail.com> Well, chances are that you don't want to subscribe to the SamsonBlinded blog..... On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > VERY interesting article...Purim Sameach! > * Hanoch* > ** > Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Facts of Purim' > > Like every Jewish historic festival, Purim is a rather blood-thirsty > celebration. > > On Pesach, God made himself known to Israelites specifically by wholesale > killing of the Egyptians (Exodus 7:5, 14:17). Jews also were less than > politically correct then: the only time the Torah applies the word neighbor > to > our opponents is when we borrowed jewelry from the Egyptians without > meaning to > give it back. > > On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish > ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to > introduce > some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The > Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian > into > Roman protectorate. > > On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged > nine > months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther?s > people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8), and Mordechai was appointed > in > his stead. It is unthinkable, in that order of events, for the planned > massacre > against Jews to be carried out. In the Middle Eastern customs, an edict not > actively lobbied for was doomed to oblivion, and with Haman?s demise Jews > were > safe despite the fact that the Artaxerxes? murderous edict could not be > formally rescinded. > > The celebration marks Jews killing ?those who hated them? (9:1). It was not > ?an eye for an eye? retaliation or even the rabbinical, ?That who comes to > slay you, slay him first? because the midrash relates that the haters? > children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a > belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek?s King Agag > whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman > debacle > befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced > ?the > mercy of fools? ? after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who > would have had no mercy upon us. > > The Haman?s example follows the Torah?s exterminatory logic. God commanded > Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish > to > leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be > exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to > remain, > the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will > hate > and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai?s > leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters > alive > ? and killed them. Leaving the haters? children would have just perpetuated > the violence as the children grow and take revenge. > > Jews prevailed over the enemies on the 13th of the month of Adar (9:1). On > the > 14th, Jews rested (9:18) and killed choice enemies (v.14). When we > celebrate > Purim on the 14th, it is about killing the enemies rather than saving > ourselves. > > > This may sound odd for those taught the nonsense that Judaism is love. > Sorry, > then. Jews are only commanded to love their law-observant neighbors; > enemies and > transgressors must be hated and done away with. Jews are normal, and like > other > people we are entitled to hate and kill our enemies; we killed Hamas? Ahmed > Yasin together with his family just as 2,500 years we hanged Haman with his > sons. And in case you were told there is no Amalek today, Rashi is adamant > in > equating Amalek with Germans, and Israeli Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi implied > clearly > that Arabs are Amalek. If you want consolation, take it in the fact that > European settlers conquered America in precisely the biblical manner, > exterminated the natives, and created a nice liberal country in the > occupied > territories. Two hundred years from now, I?d love to be sorry for what we > were > doing to the natives in the Land of Israel when conquering it. > > On Purim, Jews must become drunk to the extent of not differentiating > between > blessing Mordechai and cursing Haman. In vino veritas. Drunken people > forget the > accretions of political correctness and return to the basic truth: > Mordechai's > blessing consists in Haman being cursed; his death is our reward. > > Lest Jews think that the Purim course of action is antiquated, the > characters? names are suggestive: Mordechai from Marduk, and Esther from > Astarte. The saviors were two assimilated Jews whose names even were pagan. > One > was a court Jew, another ? a Jewish leader eager to become court Jew. In > the > critical times, they have changed. > > You can leave a comment at > http://samsonblinded.org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/fbe36225/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 9 09:17:31 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:17:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <030920091417.21765.49B524FA0005566D0000550522228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Miriam, I was completely with ya up to the last sentence. No that I disagree with it, I'm just not clear on the relevance to the rest of your post. Please explain. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from MiriamL613 at aol.com: -------------- In a message dated 3/7/2009 11:27:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes: It doesn't address the prophetic statement regarding a virgin birth associated with mashiach (Isaiah 7:14). I bring this up not to contest the conclusions but because the proponents of the virgin birth validity see this passage as confirmation. I think it must be discussed. I don't think it necessarily excludes Yeshua from messiah-ship, the whole issue of "dual messiah" (messiah ben Judah, messiah ben Joseph) is not discussed.>> It's quite true that there can be multiple interpretations of prophesies and I have seen many intepretations of Isaiah 53 as applying both to Israel as a whole and to the Messiah specifically. However, I have never seen anything in Jewish commentaries which suggests that Isaiah 7:14 had anything to do either with a virgin or with the messiah. The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah" - and the Hebrew word translated by most Christian bibles in Isaiah 7:14 is "alma" which means "young woman." There are vast amounts of discussions about the messiah in the midrash and legends, and none of them suggest that he would be born of a virgin. One would think that both Matthew and Luke, in taking the time to trace Jesus's paternal lineage, would make a point of mentioning this very unusual aspect, i.e., a son being created from the seed of Mary. Why not trace Mary's lineage! Matthew is very specific that all the men and their sons mentioned in Chapter 1 led to the birth of the husband of Mary. (1:16) Why bother talking about her husband's lineage if hers was so much more significant and meaningful? My personal opinion is that the Joseph mentioned as the husband of Mary, in Matthew, was the physical father of Jesus. They were betrothed when she conceived, so with or without sexual relations, Mary's husband was the daddy. Not divorcing her would have been a virtual admission of fatherhood, because there's no option for a Jewish man to stay married to a woman who willingly had sexual relations with another man. He would have been required to divorce her. As for the dual messiah concept in Judaism, the Messiah son of Joseph refers not simply to any man named Joseph, but Joseph the son of Jacob, through his son Ephraim. It's a completely different tribe and needs to result in a completely different person. The only time the midrash ever contemplates them both being the same person would be via reincarnation. The Land of Israel was divided into sections to be inherited by each specific tribe. If one man was as much a member of his mother's tribe as of his father's tribe, then a son whose father was of the tribe of Judah and whose mother was of the tribe of Benjamin could have both lineages. Then if he married a woman whose parents were of the tribe of Dan and of the tribe of Asher, the offspring would have all four tribal lineages. Within a few generations, every Jew would have all 12 tribal lineages! and, in effect, have none. It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line. If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood, he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism. Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/0012df8a/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 09:33:29 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:33:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: Good points,Miri, but then being your hubby, I can't disagree.Just joking. Considering that in all aspects of Torah law, tribe is strictly paternal and Jewishness is maternal, maybe the folks here would like to see some references to show that counting Mary's bloodline is a moot point as proof of his tribal linage beyond confirming Jesus was a Jew. I won't bother going into that considering the second listing of linage being Mary's family is only theory and conjecture. =============================== TABLE OF CONTENTS =============================== PART 1A -- PROOF FROM THE BIBLE -- EZRA PART 1B -- MORE PROOF THAT EZRA WAS CORRECT PART 1C -- ANOTHER PROOF THAT EZRA WAS CORRECT PART 2A -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 1 PART 2B -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 2 PART 2C -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 3 PART 2D -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 4 PART 3A -- PROOF FROM THE JERUSALEM TALMUD 1 PART 3B -- PROOF FROM THE JERUSALEM TALMUD 2 PART 4A -- PROOF FROM RASHI 1 PART 4B -- PROOF FROM RASHI 2 PART 5A -- PROOF FROM TOSEFOS 1 PART 5C -- PROOF FROM TOSEFOS YASHANIM PART 6A -- PROOF FROM RAMBAM (MAIMONIDES) 1 PART 6B -- PROOF FROM RAMBAM (MAIMONIDES) 2 PART 7 -- PROOF FROM RABEINU BACHYA BEN ASHER PART 8 -- PROOF FROM SHULCHAN ARUCH / RAMA PART 9 -- PROOF FROM MEAM LOEZ PART 10 -- RABBI HERTZ SPEAKS PART 11 -- NOT ONLY THE ORTHODOX PART 12 -- SOURCES FOR FURTHER RESEARCH ======================================= PART 1A -- PROOF FROM THE BIBLE -- EZRA ======================================= Ezra lived 25 centuries ago. The Biblical book named after him is the third-last book of the Tanach, known in English as the Hebrew Scriptures or the "OT" (Only Testament). THE BIBLE, EZRA, CHAPTER 10, VERSES 2 and 3: " ... We have betrayed our G-d, and we have taken in foreign wives of the peoples of the land, but now there is hope for Israel concerning this. Now, let us make a covenant with G-d to cast out all the wives and their children by the counsel of the L-rd those who hasten to perform the commandments of our G-d and according the law it shall be done. " If Jewishness was inherited through the father, then the children of the "foreign [non-Jewish] wives" would have been Jewish, and there would have been no commandment to "cast out" the children of the "foreign wives". The verses (Ezra 10:2-3) shown above state that the covenant to "cast out all of the [non-Jewish] wives AND THEIR CHILDREN" was "by the counsel of the L-rd" and "according the law" -- both phrases meaning that the expulsion of the gentiles and the expulsion of the children born to the gentile women was G-d's will. Additionally, the phrase "according the law" indicates that Ezra was following a pre-existing divinely-revealed law, not an original idea that he thought of from his own mind. Therefore, we conclude that Ezra's policy of determining Jewishness BY THE MOTHER ONLY is correct. ========================================== PART 1B -- MORE PROOF THAT EZRA WAS CORRECT ========================================== Ezra was not leader of the Jewish people because he was a king who inherited royal status from his father, nor was he a warrior who seized power by force or fear. Ezra was leader of the Jewish People because he was the greatest Torah scholar at the time. That is why Ezra is called "Ezra The Scribe". "Scribe" means scholar -- a Torah scholar. The quotes below indicate Ezra's great knowledge of Torah Law: [1] Ezra Chapter 7 verse 6: "... this Ezra ascended from Babylon. He was a brilliant (other translations: "skillful" or "quick") scholar of the Torah of Moses, which The L-rd, G-d of Israel had given..." [2] Ezra Chapter 7 verse 12: "[from] Artahshasta, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, scholar of the Law of the G-d of heaven..." [3] Ezra Chapter 7 verse 21: "...whatever Ezra the priest, scholar of the Law of the G-d of heaven, shall request of you, let it be implemented expeditiously." [4] Ezra Chapter 7 verse 25: "And you, Ezra -- by the Divine wisdom which you possess, greater than that of all the people of the Trans-River -- instruct those who do not know." [5] Talmud, Sanhedrin 21B, 5 lines from bottom: ?Rabbi Yose said: Had Moses not preceded him, Ezra would have been worthy of receiving the Torah for Israel [at Mount Sinai].? (Translation by Soncino Press, London, 1987.) Rabbi Yose?s claim (shown above) is not challenged. Even if Rabbi Yose?s claim had been challenged: ?The halacha [law] is always like Rabbi Yose, even against more than one Tanna [Talmudic authority].? (Aids To Talmud Study by Aryeh Carmell, Feldheim Publishers, 1980, 4th revised ed, pg 71, Appendix 1, Paragraph 6, Rule 7, ISBN 0-87-306-181-0.) [6] Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Shekalim, 5:1: ?Just as he [Ezra] was a scribe [master scholar] in the words of the Torah, so too was he a scribe in the words of the sages [rabbis].? (Encyclopedia of Biblical Personalities, Yishai Chasidah, page 431, Shaar Press, 1994.) Additionally, Ezra received his Torah knowledge from well-known prophets: [7] Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Megillah, Page 16B: "as long as Baruch Ben Neriah was alive, Ezra did not leave him to ascend [to the land of Israel] ( because Ezra was studying Torah from Baruch ). [8] Ezra was a direct disciple of Baruch ben Neriah, and Baruch ben Neriah was a disciple of Jeremiah the Prophet (Jeremiah 32:12, 36:32, 45). So Ezra's Torah teacher was a direct disciple of a Biblical prophet. [9] The Talmud (Megillah 14B, 5 lines from the bottom and Megillah 15A, 12 lines from the top) indicates that Baruch Ben Neriah was a prophet, which would make Ezra a direct disciple of a Biblical prophet. Since Ezra was a GREAT Torah scholar who studied Torah from prophets, we must assume that he acted correctly when he expelled the gentiles AND THE CHILDREN OF THE NON-JEWISH WOMEN from the Jewish People. ============================================= PART 1C -- ANOTHER PROOF THAT EZRA WAS CORRECT ============================================= Prophets still lived in Ezra's time (see Ezra chapter 5 verse 1: "Now the prophets Haggai the prophet and Zechariah ben Iddo prophesied to the Jews..."). Yet no prophet rebuked Ezra for expelling the gentile women AND THEIR CHILDREN from the Jewish People. The fact that no prophet rebuked Ezra for his actions is another proof that he acted correctly when he expelled the gentiles AND THEIR MATRILINEAL DESCENDANTS from the Jewish People. ================================= PART 2A -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 1 ================================= In the Talmud (tractate Yevamos, page 23A), Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai teaches that the child of a Jewish MOTHER is Jewish. He proves this by analyzing the biblical book of Deuteronomy, chapter seven (7), verse four (4). "Rabbi Johanan replied in the name of Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai: Scripture stated, For he will turn away thy son from following Me (Deuteronomy 7:4); ' thy son ' born from an Israelitish woman is called THY SON but ' thy son ' who was born from a heathen woman is not called THY SON but HER son." "Said Rabina: From this it follows that the ' on of your daughter' who derives from a heathen is called 'thy son' ." The source of the translated quote shown above is: HEBREW-ENGLISH EDITION OF THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD--YEBAMOTH, London, Soncino press, 1984, Soncino's commentary, which is found at the bottom of the same page that displays the English translation shown above, explains that "he" in Deuteronomy 7:4 refers to the son in the PREVIOUS Biblical verse, not to the son in the same verse. If this law was the original teaching of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, it surely would have been challenged by the other rabbis. The fact that the law of matrilineal descent was accepted without debate indicates that matrilineal descent was already a well-established law in the time of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, who taught from approximately from the year 100 to the year 150. ================================= PART 2B -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 2 ================================= The teaching that Jewish identity is determined at birth by the mother, is repeated in the Talmud, in tractate Kiddushin, page 68B, 4 to 7 lines from the top of the page: "Rabbi Yochanan said in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai: We know that a female gentile's offspring is a non-Jew like her because the verse stated: ' For he will turn your son away from Me and they will serve other gods (Deuteronomy 7:4).' " "From here we derive that your son who comes from a Jewess is called YOUR son, but your son who comes from a heathen woman is not called YOUR son; rather, he is considered HER SON -- i.e. the child is born into his mother's faith and not into the Jewish faith of his father and grandfather." "Ravina said: Learn from [Rabbi Yochanan's teaching] that your daughter's son who comes from a heathen father -- is called YOUR son -- i.e. he is Jewish like his mother, and not a heathen like his father." The source of the translated quote shown above is: page 136 of THE SCHOTTENSTEIN EDITION TALMUD BAVLI, TRACTATE KIDDUSHIN VOLUME II, 1993, Mesorah Publications, 4401 Second Avenue, Brooklyn NY 11232 718-921-9000 ISBN 0-89906-734-4. ================================= PART 2C -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 3 ================================= The teaching that Jewish identity is determined by the MOTHER is repeated again in the Talmud, in Tractate Yevamos, Page 17A, 5 to 7 lines from the top of the page: "When, however, I mentioned the matter in the presence of Samuel he said to me: THY SON (Deuteronomy 7 : 4) implies that he who is descended from an Israelitish woman may be called THY SON, but thy son who is descended from a heathen woman is not called THY son, but HER son." The source of the translated quote shown above is: HEBREW-ENGLISH EDITION OF THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD--YEBAMOTH, London, Soncino press, 1984, ================================= PART 2D -- PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 4 ================================= Tractate Yevamoth, page 100B, 21 lines from the top, teaches that the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are spiritually associated with their mother: ?Do not marry a non-Jewish free woman or a non-Jewish slave woman so that your children [literally ?seed?] will not be ascribed to her.? Rashi?s commentary on this page (35 lines from the top) explains this by comparing it to tractate Kiddushin, page 68B (see PROOF FROM THE TALMUD 2, in this essay) which teaches that the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are NOT Jews. =========================================== PART 3A -- PROOF FROM THE JERUSALEM TALMUD 1 =========================================== The Jerusalem Talmud (tractate Yevamoth, chapter 2, law 6, page 13A, 15 lines from the bottom to the bottom of the page) teaches that the child of a Jewish MOTHER is Jewish: "Rabbi Johanan replied in the name of Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai: Scripture stated, For he will turn away thy son from following Me (Deuteronomy 7:4); ' thy son ' born from an Israelitish woman is called THY SON but ' thy son ' who was born from a heathen woman is not called THY SON but HER son...? The text shown above continues by quoting the Biblical book of Ezra, chapter 10, verses 2 to 3 (see Part 1A of this essay: ?PROOF FROM THE BIBLE --EZRA?). =========================================== PART 3B -- PROOF FROM THE JERUSALEM TALMUD 2 =========================================== The Jerusalem Talmud (tractate Kiddushin, chapter 3, law 12, page 41A, starting 4 lines above law 13) proves that the child of a Jewish MOTHER is Jewish by quoting the Biblical book of Ezra, chapter 10, verses 2 to 3. See Part 1A of this essay: ?PROOF FROM THE BIBLE --EZRA?. ================================= PART 4A -- PROOF FROM RASHI 1 ================================= Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchak) lived in France from 1040 to 1104 of the Common Era. Rashi's commentary on the Talmud is the most important commentary on the Talmud. Every existing edition of the Talmud includes Rashi's commentary. Rashi's commentary is the most often studied commentary on all 24 books of the Tanach, known in English as "The Bible" or the "OT" (Only Testament). The first known printed Hebrew book was a copy of the Tanach with Rashi?s commentary. This was accomplished by Abraham ben Garton ben Isaac of Reggio di Clalbria in Southern Italy in the secular year 1475. (from: The Flatbush Jewish News, March 2001, page 9, editor: Daniel Keren). DEUTERONOMY CHAPTER 7 VERSE 4: "For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods..." Rashi's commentary on the verse shown above says: "...From this we learn that your daughter's son, who is born of a gentile, is YOUR son [meaning that the grandson is Jewish]; but your son's son, born of a gentile woman, is NOT considered your son [meaning that the grandson is NOT Jewish], but rather HER son; [again meaning that the child is not Jewish]..." The translation shown above was taken from page 87 of Volume V -- Devarim of THE METSUDAH CHUMASH / RASHI, by Avohom Davis, 1994, KTAV Publishing House, 900 Jefferson Street, Hoboken, NJ 07030, (201) 963-9524 The words in square brackets [ ] were inserted by the copyist. ================================= PART 4B -- PROOF FROM RASHI 2 ================================= Tractate Berachot, Page 16A, Rashi, 30 to 22 lines from the bottom: "THE SON OF THE DAUGHTER OF SHMUEL. In many places he is called ?son of Rachel?. The daughter of Shmuel was taken captive by gentiles as is stated in Tractate Ketuboth, Page 23A and a [gentile] approached her and She became pregnant from him [the gentile] and after he converted. His name was ISSUR as is stated in Tractate Bava Batra, Page 149A. Rabbi Mari [the son of Issur] was not conceived in sanctity, so he was not called by the name of his father.? So we see that Rabbi Mari, born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father was considered Jewish. ============================== PART 5A -- PROOF FROM TOSEFOS 1 ============================== TOSEFOS is a classic commentary on the Talmud, written by many authors, all of whom were very great Torah scholars. The most important authors of Tosefos were the sons-in-law of Rashi and the grandsons of Rashi, especially Rabbeinu Tam (1100-1171, France). Tosefos is so important to serious students of the Talmud that it is printed in every edition of the Talmud. Furthermore, Tosefos is one of the very few Talmudic commentaries that is printed on the same pages as the text of the Talmud itself. Less important commentaries are printed in the back of each tractate of Talmud, or even in a separate book. The first TOSEFOS in Tractate Yevamos, Page 17A, starting 17 lines from the top of the page and ending 19 lines from the top of the page, says: "... the Jewish ancestry is not determined by your son, but it is determined by the gentile woman, because [her offspring] is not called YOUR SON, but HER SON." In other words, Tosefos agrees that Jewishness is determined by the mother only, not by the father. ============================== PART 5B -- PROOF FROM TOSEFOS 2 ============================== Tractate Kiddushin, Page 68B, 3rd Tosefos, lines 2 to 4: "... your daughter -- do not give [in marriage] to his [the gentile's] son, because "he will turn away your [grand]son from Me [G-d] (Deuteronomy 7:4)", and he [the son of your Jewish daughter and the gentile father] is called YOUR [GRAND]SON (meaning that he is Jewish). However, your [grand]son that is born from a gentile woman and your [Jewish] son, is not called YOUR SON, but HER SON (meaning that the grandson is not Jewish).... ===================================== PART 5C -- PROOF FROM TOSEFOS YASHANIM ===================================== As mentioned above, Rabeinu Tam was the most important author of the Talmudic commentary that is called TOSEFOS. Those parts of Tosefos that were written BEFORE Rabeinu Tam are called TOSEFOS YASHANIM ("yeshanim" means "old"). The TOSEFOS YASHANIM is one of the few Talmud commentaries that is considered important enough to be printed on the same pages as the text of the Talmud itself. TOSEFOS YASHANIM in Yevamos, Page 17A, starting 5 lines from the top and ending 6 lines from the top, says: "... the child of your daughter who comes from [is fathered by] a non-Jewish man is called YOUR CHILD [meaning that the child is Jewish]." ========================================= PART 6A -- PROOF FROM RAMBAM (MAIMONIDES) 1 ========================================= Rambam (also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon or Maimonides) was born in Spain in 1135 and died in Egypt in 1204. Rambam taught that the child of a Jewish MOTHER is Jewish, in Hilchos Yibum, Chapter 1, Law 4: "And the offspring of a gentile woman are gentiles, and considered as if they have no connection to him." [Meaning that the children of a non-Jewish woman have no connection to their Jewish father]." "And with regard to a gentile woman [Deuteronomy chapter 7 verse 4] states: ' They will lead your son away from me ' -- i.e., prevent him from being considered part of the congregation." [Meaning that the non-Jewish woman prevents her children from being considered part of the Jewish People.] The translation of Rambam shown above was taken from page 14 of Volume 18 -- Hilchot Yibbum Va'Chalitzah of MAIMONIDES (RAMBAM) MISHNEH TORAH by Rabbi Eliyahu Touger, 1989, Moznaim Publishers, Moznaim Publishing, 4304 12th Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11219 (718) 438-7680, (718) 853-0525 ISBN 1-885-220-04-9. The words in square brackets [ ] were inserted by the copyist. ========================================= PART 6B -- PROOF FROM RAMBAM (MAIMONIDES) 2 ========================================= Rambam again teaches that the child of a non-Jewish woman is a non-Jew, even when the child's father is Jewish, in his Hilchot Issurei Biah, Chapter 12, Law 7: " ... and the son of a gentile woman is not his son, as it says: ' They will lead your son away from Me ' -- i.e., lead him away from following after G-d.' " =========================================== PART 7 - PROOF FROM RABEINU BACHYA BEN ASHER =========================================== Rabeinu Bachya ben Asher (1255-1340) studied Torah under the great Rabbi Shlomoh ben Adret (Rashba). He served as a Rabbinical judge in Saragossa, Spain where he was born. His commentary on the Torah, which was completed by the time he was 36 years old, is so important that ten super-commentaries have been published on it. It is said that he was the first to build a commentary on the four levels of meaning: [1] Peshat, the simple meaning of the text [2] Remez, a philosophical approach [3] Drash, the homiletical approach [4] Sod, the mystical approach to the text. He should not be confused with the Rabbi Bachya who wrote Chovot HaLevavot. He opposed slavery and the unfair tax burden placed on the poor. His commentary on Deuteronomy Chapter 7 verse 4: "The Torah does not say that the mother, i.e. the daughter - in - law of such marriage will lead your son astray, but it speaks about the next generation, i.e. your grandson from your daughter married to a Gentile. The grandson from a Gentile daughter-in-law could not be referred to as ?YOUR SON,? as, seeing his mother is not Jewish, he is not either (compare Kiddushin 68A). The syntax of the verses makes clear that the Torah considers the mother pivotal in determining who is Jewish. The plain meaning of the verse [Deuteronomy Chapter 7 verse 4] then is: ?if the son of a Gentile marries your daughter he will lead the grandson born of your daughter astray (religiously speaking, even though technically your grandson is Jewish?. Her husband will train his son to engage in idolatry.? The translation shown above is from: TORAH COMMENTARY BY RABBI BACHYA BEN ASHER, Volume 7, page 2439, Translated and annotated by Eliyahu Munk, printed June 1998. Available from: Eliyahu Munk, 4/9 Shalom Aleichem Street, Jerusalem, Israel 92148. Sole North American distributor: Lambda Publishers, 3709 13th Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11218 e-mail: ejudaica at email.msn.com, (718) 972-5449. ========================================= PART 8 -- PROOF FROM SHULCHAN ARUCH / RAMA ========================================= The Shulchan Aruch (Code Of Jewish Law, literally "the Set Table) was written by Rabbi Yosef Caro in 1525 in Tiberias (Israel) and was first published in 1535 in Venice (Italy). Anyone who wants to become an Orthodox Rabbi must be tested in Shulchan Aruch because it is the most authoritative source of Jewish Law. The RAMA (Rabbi Moshe Isserles, 1525-1572, Cracow, Poland) wrote a commentary on the Shulchan Aruch called the ?haga? (clarification) or ?mapa? (table cloth). "While still young, he was renowned as an outstanding scholar and in 1550 he was a member of the Cracow Bet Din (Rabbinical court)." -- Encyclopedia Judaica, 1996 edition. His commentary -- first published together with the Shulchan Aruch in 1578 in Cracow -- is so important that the Shulchan Aruch is never printed without it. Ashkenazic rabbis consider the Rema's "haga" as authoritative as the Shulchan Aruch itself. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer, Hilchot Ishut, Siman 16, Sif 2: ?He who has sexual intercourse with a non-Jewish woman ... ? The Rema?s "haga" commentary on the words above states: ?This sin has a loss that is not found in other sexual sins -- that the child born from a gentile woman is not his son ... ? ============================= PART 9 -- PROOF FROM MEAM LOEZ ============================= The Yalkut Meam Loez was written in Turkey by Rabbi Yaakov Culi (1689-1732). Rabbi Culi was a master of the entire spectrum of Jewish sacred literature: Bible, Talmud, Jerusalem Talmud, Midrash, Rishonim, Kabbalah, Halacha, Acharonim, Chidushim, etc. "However, if a Jewish woman marries a gentile and has a child, the child follows the mother's pedigree and is Jewish. Likewise, if a Jew marries a gentile and she has a child, the child is a gentile." The translation shown above was taken from page 309 of Volume 16 (Deuteronomy II) [commentary on Deuteronomy chapter 7 verse 4] of THE TORAH ANTHOLOGY -- YALKUT MEAM LOEZ, translated by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Moznaim Publishers, 4304 12th Avenue, Brooklyn, New York 11219, Telephone: (718) 438-7680, (718) 853-0525. ============================ PART 10 -- RABBI HERTZ SPEAKS ============================ The PENTATEUCH AND HAFTORAHS, by Soncino Publishers, 1966, edited by Dr. J.H. Hertz, Chief Rabbi of the British Empire, explains: << "THY SON" The TALMUD explains this to mean, "thy grandson" Since the Torah, on this interpretation calls the child an Israelite mother and gentile father the 'son' of an Israelite grandfather it was deduced there from that the child is to be regarded as being of the same race and faith as the mother. >> << Consequently, the child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother follows in Jewish Law the religious status of the mother. >> ======================================= PART 11 -- NOT ONLY THE ORTHODOX ======================================= Orthodox Jews have no monopoly on rejecting "patrilineal descent" to determine Jewish identity. The entire Conservative Judaism movement has always rejected patrilineal descent to determine Jewish identity. (In other words, they do not consider a child to be Jewish because of the child?s Jewish father). In 1985, the Conservative Judaism movement officially decided to reject determining Jewishness by the father. The Reform movement in Israel, Australia and probably Europe also rejects patrilineal descent. It is only the Reform congregations of North America that accept patrilineal descent. Finally, "patrilineal descent" has only been practiced by the Reform movement since 1983. ======================================= PART 12 -- SOURCES FOR FURTHER RESEARCH ======================================= * Kiddushin 68B, Tosefos R?Y HaZaken * Tosefos HaRosh on Yevamoth 17A and Kiddushin 68B * Aruch HaShulchan, Even HaEzer, Hilchos Ishus, Siman 16, Sif 7 and Sif 9 ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Date: 3/9/2009 12:13:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _MiriamL613 at aol.com_ (mailto:MiriamL613 at aol.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: In a message dated 3/7/2009 11:27:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes: It doesn't address the prophetic statement regarding a virgin birth associated with mashiach (Isaiah 7:14). I bring this up not to contest the conclusions but because the proponents of the virgin birth validity see this passage as confirmation. I think it must be discussed. I don't think it necessarily excludes Yeshua from messiah-ship, the whole issue of "dual messiah" (messiah ben Judah, messiah ben Joseph) is not discussed.>> It's quite true that there can be multiple interpretations of prophesies and I have seen many intepretations of Isaiah 53 as applying both to Israel as a whole and to the Messiah specifically. However, I have never seen anything in Jewish commentaries which suggests that Isaiah 7:14 had anything to do either with a virgin or with the messiah. The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah" - and the Hebrew word translated by most Christian bibles in Isaiah 7:14 is "alma" which means "young woman." There are vast amounts of discussions about the messiah in the midrash and legends, and none of them suggest that he would be born of a virgin. One would think that both Matthew and Luke, in taking the time to trace Jesus's paternal lineage, would make a point of mentioning this very unusual aspect, i.e., a son being created from the seed of Mary. Why not trace Mary's lineage! Matthew is very specific that all the men and their sons mentioned in Chapter 1 led to the birth of the husband of Mary. (1:16) Why bother talking about her husband's lineage if hers was so much more significant and meaningful? My personal opinion is that the Joseph mentioned as the husband of Mary, in Matthew, was the physical father of Jesus. They were betrothed when she conceived, so with or without sexual relations, Mary's husband was the daddy. Not divorcing her would have been a virtual admission of fatherhood, because there's no option for a Jewish man to stay married to a woman who willingly had sexual relations with another man. He would have been required to divorce her. As for the dual messiah concept in Judaism, the Messiah son of Joseph refers not simply to any man named Joseph, but Joseph the son of Jacob, through his son Ephraim. It's a completely different tribe and needs to result in a completely different person. The only time the midrash ever contemplates them both being the same person would be via reincarnation. The Land of Israel was divided into sections to be inherited by each specific tribe. If one man was as much a member of his mother's tribe as of his father's tribe, then a son whose father was of the tribe of Judah and whose mother was of the tribe of Benjamin could have both lineages. Then if he married a woman whose parents were of the tribe of Dan and of the tribe of Asher, the offspring would have all four tribal lineages. Within a few generations, every Jew would have all 12 tribal lineages! and, in effect, have none. It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line. If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood, he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism. Miriam ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/ba425a1f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 9 10:11:42 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:11:42 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] This is Interesting. Message-ID: <030920091511.2547.49B531AD0008F45F000009F322230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> More Americans Say They Have No Religion Monday, March 09, 2009 A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all. Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey. Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state. "No other religious bloc has kept such a pace in every state," the study's authors said. In the Northeast, self-identified Catholics made up 36 percent of adults last year, down from 43 percent in 1990. At the same time, however, Catholics grew to about one-third of the adult population in California and Texas, and one-quarter of Floridians, largely due to Latino immigration, according to the research. Nationally, Catholics remain the largest religious group, with 57 million people saying they belong to the church. The tradition gained 11 million followers since 1990, but its share of the population fell by about a percentage point to 25 percent. Christians who aren't Catholic also are a declining segment of the country. In 2008, Christians comprised 76 percent of U.S. adults, compared to about 77 percent in 2001 and about 86 percent in 1990. Researchers said the dwindling ranks of mainline Protestants, including Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians, largely explains the shift. Over the last seven years, mainline Protestants dropped from just over 17 percent to 12.9 percent of the population. The report from The Program on Public Values at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., surveyed 54,461 adults in English or Spanish from February through November of last year. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 0.5 percentage points. The findings are part of a series of studies on American religion by the program that will later look more closely at reasons behind the trends. The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives. Thirty percent of married couples did not have a religious wedding ceremony and 27 percent of respondents said they did not want a religious funeral. About 12 percent of Americans believe in a higher power but not the personal God at the core of monotheistic faiths. And, since 1990, a slightly greater share of respondents ? 1.2 percent ? said they were part of new religious movements, including Scientology, Wicca and Santeria. The study also found signs of a growing influence of churches that either don't belong to a denomination or play down their membership in a religious group. Respondents who called themselves "non-denominational Christian" grew from 0.1 percent in 1990 to 3.5 percent last year. Congregations that most often use the term are megachurches considered "seeker sensitive." They use rock style music and less structured prayer to attract people who don't usually attend church. Researchers also found a small increase in those who prefer being called evangelical or born-again, rather than claim membership in a denomination. Evangelical or born-again Americans make up 34 percent of all American adults and 45 percent of all Christians and Catholics, the study found. Researchers found that 18 percent of Catholics consider themselves born-again or evangelical, and nearly 39 percent of mainline Protestants prefer those labels. Many mainline Protestant groups are riven by conflict over how they should interpret what the Bible says about gay relationships, salvation and other issues. The percentage of Pentecostals remained mostly steady since 1990 at 3.5 percent, a surprising finding considering the dramatic spread of the tradition worldwide. Pentecostals are known for a spirited form of Christianity that includes speaking in tongues and a belief in modern-day miracles. Mormon numbers also held steady over the period at 1.4 percent of the population, while the number of Jews who described themselves as religiously observant continued to drop, from 1.8 percent in 1990 to 1.2 percent, or 2.7 million people, last year. Researchers plan a broader survey on people who consider themselves culturally Jewish but aren't religious. The study found that the percentage of Americans who identified themselves as Muslim grew to 0.6 percent of the population, while growth in Eastern religions such as Buddhism slightly slowed. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/74ef48e5/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Mar 9 10:20:28 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:20:28 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] and then a hero comes along... Message-ID: <82C550749E784734A6E3D4D7C4F40BC3@Beeblebrox> Shalom All, >From the book of Esther (Hadassah - hidden one): ... then Haman said: 'There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom; their laws (torah) are different from those of every other people, and they do not keep the king's laws, so that it is not for the king's profit to tolerate them .... let it be decreed that they be destroyed '... ... 'letters were sent by couriers ... to slay and annihilate all Jews, ... and to plunder their goods... ... Mordechai sends word to Esther .... "Think not that in the king's palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. For if you keep silence at such a time as this, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another quarter, but you and your father's house will perish ... ... 'and who knows if you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this? ... ...."if I perish, I perish"... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..."and then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQYh1VTI-QI&feature=related May YOU be that hero - with the help of the Most High - in these days of darkness! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/9571424f/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Mon Mar 9 11:29:51 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:29:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS In-Reply-To: <62ACE43C-5D3D-484B-A510-40967139AF92@earthlink.net> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC><523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> <62ACE43C-5D3D-484B-A510-40967139AF92@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CB6EEB67C3F5C0-1B74-A34@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> I will look at the old JPS again. It has been my experience that Jewish translations are not any better than so-called Christian translations and in many cases they are not as good (literal). I am currently leaning towards not being so restrictive on the translation. One of the things that will make this such a special project is that it brings a great deal of variety. I was thinking this week because of the Torah reading of the composition of the incense.? The various spices are combined to produce the overall. Some of these are not so wonderful by themselves, but when combined with others the desired?results are realized.?I welcome anyone who wants to use the 1917 JPS to do so, but am okay if others wish to use the RSV, KJV, ESV?or other translations to pick their favorite translation and read it. In the spirit of true Dialogue, this is the way I see it for what its worth.? I for one have the most beautiful ESV given to me by a close friend:) It has become my one and only English translation and I will likely use this to read any portions that I read. Another question that will likely come up is what to do about the name of God. I am sure that this could become a point for possible disagreement. I am currently feeling like allowing people to follow their heart on this as well. There will be some who will say Adonai, some who say "the LORD", etc.? Again, this is part of the beauty of variety. This will be an ongoing project for years to come and I see this branching out even further than we are talking about now to include someone reading their respective aliyoth in their own language! (the Torah in Tongues!).? Much peace and respect to each of you as you consider my views on this. The vision that I have is not to produce an audio version of the Scriptures according to Accepted Jewish wisdom and scholarship, but to produce a version of the Torah according to the voices of the people who love their own Bible and desire to read it to the inhabitants of our world whether they be Jews or Christians or something altogether different. Shalom, Ross -----Original Message----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 7:06 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS I second this nomination, though we should clarify it is not the current JPS that is in print, but the 1917 edition, on line, and now out of print. Having it on line is good, since people would then not have to go and find a copy of the same thing. This is perfect. Also, this translation is Jewish, which I think is essential for this project. And it does read quite well. I hope we decide to go with this and I also think everyone using the same translation is an important idea. James On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English-speaking peoples. Steve At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: Shall we settle on a particular translation? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: From: sherry cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. ? The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. ? How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! ? The obvious question is how do we pull this off.? Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. ? Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. ? If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. ? I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. ? The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. ? I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. ? Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! ? Shalom, Ross ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Need a job? Find employment help in your area. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/433cdd5f/attachment.html From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Mon Mar 9 11:31:42 2009 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:31:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah in Tongues Message-ID: <2774E1B3E1A0564DB7E7C2336D34376C1599D654DF@msgcpla090a.corpmsg.com> Concerning the reading of the Torah for our project: I will look at the old JPS again. It has been my experience that Jewish translations are not any better than so-called Christian translations and in many cases they are not as good (literal). I am currently leaning towards not being so restrictive on the translation. One of the things that will make this such a special project is that it brings a great deal of variety. I was thinking this week because of the Torah reading of the composition of the incense. The various spices are combined to produce the overall. Some of these are not so wonderful by themselves, but when combined with others the desired results are realized. I welcome anyone who wants to use the 1917 JPS to do so, but am okay if others wish to use the RSV, KJV, ESV or other translations to pick their favorite translation and read it. In the spirit of true Dialogue, this is the way I see it for what its worth. I for one have the most beautiful ESV given to me by a close friend:) It has become my one and only English translation and I will likely use this to read any portions that I read. Another question that will likely come up is what to do about the name of God. I am sure that this could become a point for possible disagreement. I am currently feeling like allowing people to follow their heart on this as well. There will be some who will say Adonai, some who say "the LORD", etc. Again, this is part of the beauty of variety. This will be an ongoing project for years to come and I see this branching out even further than we are talking about now to include someone reading their respective aliyoth in their own language! (the Torah in Tongues!). Much peace and respect to each of you as you consider my views on this. The vision that I have is not to produce an audio version of the Scriptures according to Accepted Jewish wisdom and scholarship, but to produce a version of the Torah according to the voices of the people who love their own Bible and desire to read it to the inhabitants of our world whether they be Jews or Christians or something altogether different. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office - 225.654.1749 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/40f4946b/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 12:37:07 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:37:07 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Message-ID: Hello youngbarzel at gmail.com, In reference to your comment: In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. Paul Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany. He stated once that,"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." So it goes with Arab propaganda concerning the so called "refugees" and the myth that Israel evicted them from the land in 1948. Considering the Arabs were allied with the Nazis, with the Mufti of Jerusalem even having an office in Berlin, it's easy to see they learned from their Nazi partners the practice of Goebbels very well. Maybe an examination of what was in Arab papers will enlighten to the "reason" they fled. ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes,,belongings and everything they possessed." ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..." ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in." THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land." "FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." - British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date: 3/9/2009 8:08:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Welcome to the end of time' And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There is no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for subjugation to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is the man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic king needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." Some sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did so to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, imagined some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting peace and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to rebuild the Temple. Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state during the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully gathered the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish communities in Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was a Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, without the Jews rioting against the nations. The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was never a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our cousins, the children of Esau. Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of Seth" (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from Seth through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the messiah will fight the entire world. That?s something Israel might be eventually forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam meant the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with Egypt. Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land?s end (Mediterranean shore)." The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. Like in the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish community bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, Canada, West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its victims and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine plan. Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly dissociate from Jewishness. Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall not follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah considers good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very long period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don?t need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every recent generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir Kahane, Avraham Stern. God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a good number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward wind, blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The Purim miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot became madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. After all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after Yitzhak Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of Judea to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under the Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles.. The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations ? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times ? hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged. There are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman of Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in Ukrainian pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and less prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. Our times saw the Cain?s curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced medical procedures help alleviate the women?s pain during childbirth. Advances in agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was there a shortage of doomsayers. I?m not eager to join their ridiculed ranks, but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar? watchers that the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near.. Even Rambam, though quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, offered his own estimate, now long expired. God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn?t and perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will in 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then we sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a forty-year countdown? There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that?s a prophecy. The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman?s ten sons are hanged, and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the point home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, screamed ?The Purim 1946? at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed from the king?s decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in Siberia. There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such oddity can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God performs miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many coincidences. You can leave a comment at _http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm_ (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm) _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/7c59cd6e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:50:15 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:50:15 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903091050x1e1c0cf8s7a1ea614c8b4915c@mail.gmail.com> Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM, wrote: > Hello youngbarzel at gmail.com, > > In reference to your comment: > > In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their > land and fled the country for no rational reason. > > Paul Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany. > He stated once that,"If you *tell a lie* big *enough* and keep repeating > it, people *will* eventually come to *believe* it." So it goes with Arab > propaganda concerning the so called "refugees" and the myth that Israel > evicted them from the land in 1948. Considering the Arabs were allied with > the Nazis, with the Mufti of Jerusalem even having an office in Berlin, it's > easy to see they learned from their Nazi partners the practice of Goebbels > very well. > > Maybe an examination of what was in Arab papers will enlighten to the > "reason" they fled. > > ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine > Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs > did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their > homes,,belongings and everything they possessed." > > ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, > secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those > refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states > in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon > this policy unanimously..." > > ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab > League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, > Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples > that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple > as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of > Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay > temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." > > IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official > journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO > spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the > Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned > them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw > them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to > live." > > ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, > Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the > flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are > responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish > crimes > and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they > instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine > until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." > > ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, > 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' > So we got out, but they did not get in." > > THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab > states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes > temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion > armies." > > ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness > account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that > the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements > made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in > Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who > remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as > renegades." > > THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, > published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the > Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab > governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave > for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a > million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to > leave their land." > > "FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat > reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against > the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and > other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they > will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they > declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." > - > British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 > > > > > > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *[Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time'* Date: 3/9/2009 8:08:43 > A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > Samson Blinded has posted a new item, *'Welcome to the end of time'* > > And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the > Lowland > the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field > of > Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on > mount > Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. > Ovadia > > We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There > is > no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for > subjugation > to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is > the > man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic > king > needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva > and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." > Some > sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did > so > to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every > self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, > imagined > some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting > peace > and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was > characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to > rebuild > the Temple. > > Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state > during > the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully > gathered > the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish > communities in > Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth > century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was > a > Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, > without the Jews rioting against the nations. > > The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was > never > a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our > cousins, the children of Esau. > > Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of > Seth" > (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from > Seth > through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the > messiah > will fight the entire world. That?s something Israel might be eventually > forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam > meant > the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with > Egypt. > > Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to > (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land?s end > (Mediterranean > shore)." > > The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. > Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. > Like in > the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, > unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. > > The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform > Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish > community > bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of > assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, > Canada, > West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its > victims > and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine > plan. > > Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American > billionaires > are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly > dissociate > from Jewishness. > > Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world > considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in > abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, > a > preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You > shall not > follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah > considers > good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal > suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is > abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. > > As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very > long > period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the > messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we > don?t > need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every > recent > generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir > Kahane, Avraham Stern. > > God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a > good > number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and > water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward > wind, > blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it > crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, > which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The > Purim > miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot > became > madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a > three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, > 1967, > and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. > After > all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after > Yitzhak > Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of > Judea > to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under > the > Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles.. > > The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite > nations > ? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that > they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from > their > land and fled the country for no rational reason. > > The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times > ? > hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged. > There > are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized > events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman > of > Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a > hundred > years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in > Ukrainian > pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and > less > prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. > > Our times saw the Cain?s curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced > medical > procedures help alleviate the women?s pain during childbirth. Advances in > agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their > sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells > theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. > > The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century > was > there a shortage of doomsayers. I?m not eager to join their ridiculed > ranks, > but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar? watchers > that > the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near.. Even Rambam, > though > quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, > offered > his own estimate, now long expired. > > God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after > Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn?t and > perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine > will in > 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands > miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then > we > sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start > a > forty-year countdown? > > There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew > letters > are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that?s a prophecy. > The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the > Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, > and > transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman?s ten sons are > hanged, > and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the > point > home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, > screamed ?The Purim 1946? at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed > from the king?s decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years > passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, > Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date > of > wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in > Siberia. > > There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed > fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence > and > capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such > oddity > can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God > performs > miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many > coincidences. > > You can leave a comment at > http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/92950dad/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Mar 9 12:56:29 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:56:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS In-Reply-To: <8CB6EEB67C3F5C0-1B74-A34@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> References: <676A827B781D4A97A92159F930F3C91A@sherryPC><523049.8122.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><200903080515.n285FPaZ022823@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> <62ACE43C-5D3D-484B-A510-40967139AF92@earthlink.net> <8CB6EEB67C3F5C0-1B74-A34@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <245EB356-EFF5-45F0-922B-252F47744376@earthlink.net> I see your point here and I could go either way. Your idea has a great appeal. I say go for it. You are right, when it comes to the Torah translations don't matter that much and most people listening will not be able to tell. There are some problems in the Prophets, but nothing major... Excited either way here... James On Mar 9, 2009, at 12:29 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote: > I will look at the old JPS again. It has been my experience that > Jewish translations are not any better than so-called Christian > translations and in many cases they are not as good (literal). I am > currently leaning towards not being so restrictive on the translation. > > One of the things that will make this such a special project is that > it brings a great deal of variety. I was thinking this week because > of the Torah reading of the composition of the incense. The various > spices are combined to produce the overall. Some of these are not so > wonderful by themselves, but when combined with others the desired > results are realized. I welcome anyone who wants to use the 1917 JPS > to do so, but am okay if others wish to use the RSV, KJV, ESV or > other translations to pick their favorite translation and read it. > > In the spirit of true Dialogue, this is the way I see it for what > its worth. I for one have the most beautiful ESV given to me by a > close friend:) It has become my one and only English translation and > I will likely use this to read any portions that I read. > > Another question that will likely come up is what to do about the > name of God. I am sure that this could become a point for possible > disagreement. I am currently feeling like allowing people to follow > their heart on this as well. There will be some who will say Adonai, > some who say "the LORD", etc. Again, this is part of the beauty of > variety. > > This will be an ongoing project for years to come and I see this > branching out even further than we are talking about now to include > someone reading their respective aliyoth in their own language! (the > Torah in Tongues!). > > Much peace and respect to each of you as you consider my views on > this. The vision that I have is not to produce an audio version of > the Scriptures according to Accepted Jewish wisdom and scholarship, > but to produce a version of the Torah according to the voices of the > people who love their own Bible and desire to read it to the > inhabitants of our world whether they be Jews or Christians or > something altogether different. > > Shalom, Ross > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Tabor > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 7:06 am > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS > > I second this nomination, though we should clarify it is not the > current JPS that is in print, but the 1917 edition, on line, and now > out of print. Having it on line is good, since people would then not > have to go and find a copy of the same thing. This is perfect. Also, > this translation is Jewish, which I think is essential for this > project. And it does read quite well. > > I hope we decide to go with this and I also think everyone using the > same translation is an important idea. > > James > > > On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > >> >> I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm >> , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those >> who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close >> to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English- >> speaking peoples. >> >> Steve >> >> At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: >>> Shall we settle on a particular translation? >>> >>> --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole wrote: >>> From: sherry cole >>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah >>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM >>> >>> Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few >>> weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start >>> reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. >>> See you at the Synagogue, >>> Blessings, >>> Sherry >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com >>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM >>> Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah >>> >>> I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I >>> have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can >>> do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and >>> in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The >>> Synagogue Without Walls (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) was the >>> first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on >>> this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get >>> a sense of what we can do with technology. >>> >>> The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it >>> was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking >>> thought. >>> >>> How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world >>> read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings >>> into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the >>> web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah >>> read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! >>> >>> The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I >>> am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love >>> God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members >>> from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful >>> accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - >>> Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from >>> the west, some from Europe, etc. >>> >>> Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more >>> on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of >>> texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 >>> to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions >>> based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. >>> >>> If you are interested in participating in this, please email me >>> and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that >>> you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and >>> keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. >>> >>> I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the >>> upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to >>> my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. >>> >>> The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will >>> discuss translations etc, in another message. >>> >>> I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and >>> so some may already know how to make an audio file while others >>> may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do >>> not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will >>> help you. >>> >>> Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version >>> of the torah with global voices? I hope so! >>> >>> Shalom, Ross >>> >>> Ross K. Nichols >>> www.RootsofFaith.org >>> >>> >>> Need a job? Find employment help in your area. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: >>> 03/07/09 18:43:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ > > = > _______________________________________________ > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/08445764/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 13:41:05 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:41:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Message-ID: Hello Hanoch In reference to your comment:(actually not a comment but a posting from another blog and writer) Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch I simply hit reply and your email address is what is shown above the In reference to your comment,it's what the software does when a clipped quote is highlighted.. You can see above I manually changed it to your name since you seem upset at the way the program is designed to work.I also added to the In ref part so it doesn't seem like it's saying you wrote the piece. Yes, I can very see where you get these posts from that you send out. I saw it the first time I opened the email.Are you getting so bent out of shape in the false idea that I thought you wrote this stuff or is it because you believe what you're posting and are getting angry that I'm posting facts back that discredit the mishagos from their blog? If the first, I'm sorry if you misguidedly thought I was posting like you wrote it; if it's the second, I don't care if it got you angry. I post on hate mongering sites all over the web when I see ,for lack of a better term, garbage that denigrates Judaism by twisting what Judaic concepts and writings really mean. So, in ending, I won't be deleting these posts; I'll be posting right back at them. Because, if even just one person in the dialogue reads my rebuttal to this stuff and sees the phoney pseudo-intellectual drivel of this SamsonBlinded site, I win. I'll have destroyed one more piece of hate in the world. Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Shalom alechem and have a nice day ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date: 3/9/2009 1:50:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM, <_Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) > wrote: Hello _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) , In reference to your comment: In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. Paul Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany. He stated once that,"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." So it goes with Arab propaganda concerning the so called "refugees" and the myth that Israel evicted them from the land in 1948. Considering the Arabs were allied with the Nazis, with the Mufti of Jerusalem even having an office in Berlin, it's easy to see they learned from their Nazi partners the practice of Goebbels very well. Maybe an examination of what was in Arab papers will enlighten to the "reason" they fled. ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes,,belongings and everything they possessed." ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..." ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in." THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land." "FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." - British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date: 3/9/2009 8:08:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Welcome to the end of time' And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There is no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for subjugation to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is the man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic king needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." Some sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did so to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, imagined some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting peace and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to rebuild the Temple. Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state during the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully gathered the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish communities in Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was a Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, without the Jews rioting against the nations. The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was never a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our cousins, the children of Esau. Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of Seth" (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from Seth through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the messiah will fight the entire world. That?s something Israel might be eventually forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam meant the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with Egypt. Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land?s end (Mediterranean shore)." The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. Like in the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish community bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, Canada, West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its victims and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine plan. Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly dissociate from Jewishness. Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall not follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah considers good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very long period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don?t need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every recent generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir Kahane, Avraham Stern. God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a good number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward wind, blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The Purim miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot became madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. After all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after Yitzhak Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of Judea to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under the Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles... The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations ? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times ? hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged. There are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman of Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in Ukrainian pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and less prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. Our times saw the Cain?s curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced medical procedures help alleviate the women?s pain during childbirth. Advances in agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was there a shortage of doomsayers. I?m not eager to join their ridiculed ranks, but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar? watchers that the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near... Even Rambam, though quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, offered his own estimate, now long expired. God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn?t and perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will in 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then we sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a forty-year countdown? There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that?s a prophecy. The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman?s ten sons are hanged, and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the point home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, screamed ?The Purim 1946? at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed from the king?s decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in Siberia. There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such oddity can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God performs miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many coincidences. You can leave a comment at _http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm_ (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm) _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/7e059fcb/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 14:25:16 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:25:16 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS Message-ID: Hi James, I have to agree on most of the points made here.Fact is, translations are like cooking.You basically try to see what the equivilent is from the original recipe and then do the best you can. I like the Artscroll editions ,but you see mistakes here and there too. There are just so many words in Hebrew that can't be given a one word translation.Look at the word tzitzi, the symbolic tassel on a prayer shawl. It's translated as tassel in translations,yet that is a visual translation,not WHAT it is.Yeah,I know,everyone knows what it is .I'm just using it as a reference point. I think the best bet is exactly what you said,James,it doesn't really matter if this word is a bit different from another. I figure as long as the grammar tense is right,past,present and future tense, everyone will get the drift anyhow. Like I said, translations are a try to get it close art form if they're anything. So,in closing, I'd like to interject a bit of humor.Yes, they are all real. Shalom alechem, Hezakiah TRANSLATION BEAUTIES __________________________ 1. Coors put its slogan, "Turn it loose," into Spanish, where it was read as "Suffer from diarrhea". 2. Clairol introduced the "Mist Stick", a curling iron, into German only to find out that "mist" is slang for manure. Not too many people had use for the "manure stick". 3. Scandinavian vacuum manufacturer Electrolux used the following in an American campaign: Nothing sucks like an Electrolux. 4. In Chinese, the Kentucky Fried Chicken slogan "finger-lickin' good"came out as "eat your fingers off". 5. The American slogan for Salem cigarettes, "Salem -- Feeling Free", was translated into the Japanese market as "When smoking Salem, you will feel so refreshed that your mind seems to be free and empty". 6. Colgate introduced a toothpaste in France called Cue, the name of a notorious porno magazine. 7. An American T-shirt maker in Miami printed shirts for the Spanish market which promoted the Pope's visit. Instead of "I saw the Pope" (el Papa), the shirts read "I saw the potato" (la papa). 8. In Italy, a campaign for Schweppes Tonic Water translated the name into "Schweppes Toilet Water". 9. Pepsi's "Come alive with the Pepsi Generation" translated into "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave", in Chinese. 10. We all know about GM's Chevy Nova meaning "it won't go" in Spanish markets, but did you know that Ford had a similar problem in Brazil with the Pinto? Pinto was Brazilian obscene slang directed at a body part.Ford renamed the automobile Corcel, meaning "horse". 11. Hunt-Wesson introduced Big John products in French Canada as Gros Jos. Later they found out that in slang it means "big breasted" 12. Frank Perdue's chicken slogan, "it takes a strong man to make a tender chicken" was translated into Spanish as "it takes an aroused man to make a chicken affectionate". 13. When Parker Pen marketed a ball-point pen in Mexico, its ads were supposed to have read, "it won't leak in your pocket and embarrass you". Instead, the company thought that the word "embarazar" (to impregnate) meant to embarrass, so the ad read: "It won't leak in your pocket and make you pregnant". 14. The Coca-Cola name in China was first read as "Ke-kou-ke-la", meaning "Bite the wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax", depending on the dialect. Coke then researched 40,000 characters to find a phonetic equivalent "ko-ou- ko-le", translating into "happiness in the mouth". ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS Date: 3/9/2009 1:57:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _jamesdtabor at earthlink.net_ (mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: I see your point here and I could go either way. Your idea has a great appeal. I say go for it. You are right, when it comes to the Torah translations don't matter that much and most people listening will not be able to tell. There are some problems in the Prophets, but nothing major... Excited either way here... James On Mar 9, 2009, at 12:29 PM, _rndavar at aol.com_ (mailto:rndavar at aol.com) wrote: I will look at the old JPS again. It has been my experience that Jewish translations are not any better than so-called Christian translations and in many cases they are not as good (literal). I am currently leaning towards not being so restrictive on the translation. One of the things that will make this such a special project is that it brings a great deal of variety. I was thinking this week because of the Torah reading of the composition of the incense. The various spices are combined to produce the overall. Some of these are not so wonderful by themselves, but when combined with others the desired results are realized. I welcome anyone who wants to use the 1917 JPS to do so, but am okay if others wish to use the RSV, KJV, ESV or other translations to pick their favorite translation and read it. In the spirit of true Dialogue, this is the way I see it for what its worth. I for one have the most beautiful ESV given to me by a close friend:) It has become my one and only English translation and I will likely use this to read any portions that I read. Another question that will likely come up is what to do about the name of God. I am sure that this could become a point for possible disagreement. I am currently feeling like allowing people to follow their heart on this as well. There will be some who will say Adonai, some who say "the LORD", etc. Again, this is part of the beauty of variety. This will be an ongoing project for years to come and I see this branching out even further than we are talking about now to include someone reading their respective aliyoth in their own language! (the Torah in Tongues!). Much peace and respect to each of you as you consider my views on this. The vision that I have is not to produce an audio version of the Scriptures according to Accepted Jewish wisdom and scholarship, but to produce a version of the Torah according to the voices of the people who love their own Bible and desire to read it to the inhabitants of our world whether they be Jews or Christians or something altogether different. Shalom, Ross -----Original Message----- From: James Tabor <_jamesdtabor at earthlink.net_ (mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net) > To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 7:06 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading: nominate JPS I second this nomination, though we should clarify it is not the current JPS that is in print, but the 1917 edition, on line, and now out of print. Having it on line is good, since people would then not have to go and find a copy of the same thing. This is perfect. Also, this translation is Jewish, which I think is essential for this project. And it does read quite well. I hope we decide to go with this and I also think everyone using the same translation is an important idea. James On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: I nominate the JPS translation, it is widely available: _http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm_ (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm) , it is available in English and Hebrew, with tutorials for those who want to hear it in Hebrew in order to practice, and it is close to the KJV which is in the collective consciousness of the English-speaking peoples. Steve At 08:58 PM 3/7/2009, you wrote: Shall we settle on a particular translation? --- On Sat, 3/7/09, sherry cole <_shcole1 at cox.net_ (mailto:shcole1 at cox.net) > wrote: From: sherry cole <_shcole1 at cox.net_ (mailto:shcole1 at cox.net) > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:39 PM Hey Ross, I'm with you on this. I'm amazed at God's timing. A few weeks ago I started getting the impression that I should start reading the annual cycle.I'm excited about tomorrow. See you at the Synagogue, Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: _RNDAVAR at aol.com_ (mailto:RNDAVAR at aol.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Global Reading of the Torah I woke up yesterday morning with an idea that has me excited. I have been praying for quite some time for guidance on what I can do to involve people in an active way in spreading Torah faith and in making them feel like they are part of a real community. The Synagogue Without Walls (_http://www.rootsoffaith.net/_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/) ) was the first thing that I established towards this goal. If you are on this list and have not signed up, please do so. I want you to get a sense of what we can do with technology. The torah belongs to the community of Israel, but ultimately it was meant for the entire world, so........here was my waking thought. How incredible would it be to have people from all over the world read and record portions of the torah, assemble these readings into files broken down by torah readings and post them on the web!? Within one year we would have an audio version of the torah read by the people of the world, for the people of the world! The obvious question is how do we pull this off. Here is what I am thinking. I am, by this message asking for volunteers who love God's torah to anonymously read and record! We now have members from literally around the globe with all sorts of wonderful accents - some from the deep south, (in the US and even deeper - Australia), some from the north, some from the east and some from the west, some from Europe, etc. Each torah reading is broken down into aliyot (I will write more on this later). For now just think of these aliyot as sections of texts from the weekly reading. The number of aliyot varies from 3 to 7 in orthodox circles, and I will likely follow these divisions based upon tradition as well as number of volunteers. If you are interested in participating in this, please email me and let me know. Do you have a favorite passage in the torah that you would like to volunteer for? Get to me early. I will try and keep a list updated (no names) so people know what is available. I would like to have an audio file posted each week for the upcoming torah reading so that people can download and listen to my class as well as the torah reading that I am teaching on. The first step is to see how many people are interested. We will discuss translations etc, in another message. I realize that some are more skilled in technology than others and so some may already know how to make an audio file while others may want to participate, but have no idea how to do so. Please do not let technology stand in your way of participating. We will help you. Are you interested in making perhaps the very first audio version of the torah with global voices? I hope so! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) ____________________________________ Need a job? _Find employment help in your area_ (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) . ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - _www.avg.com_ (http://www.avg.com/) Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 03/07/09 18:43:00 _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlweuscare00000001) . _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/d9fc77e8/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Mar 9 14:45:14 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:45:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007a01c9a0ef$92694450$0400a8c0@marvin> Hezakiak, I love reading other peoples mail, you always learn so much, even though as a child my mother taught me you just don't do that. But that was before "the internet". My question, being the gentile I am, who tries to worship and follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I seem to be missing the point!. Maybe, you could give us some background from where you are coming from to better help us(me) to understand your position. As to the fleeing Arabs / Palestinians' , I'm reminded of a similar incident in the tanack. What was the other side of their rational reasoning? Not really trying to start something, just wondering if you believe in that mystical, spiritual other worldliness that is only in hashem's control. Anywho, be gentle with me, I'm just a gentile trying to learn. Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Hello Hanoch In reference to your comment:(actually not a comment but a posting from another blog and writer) Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch I simply hit reply and your email address is what is shown above the In reference to your comment,it's what the software does when a clipped quote is highlighted.. You can see above I manually changed it to your name since you seem upset at the way the program is designed to work.I also added to the In ref part so it doesn't seem like it's saying you wrote the piece. Yes, I can very see where you get these posts from that you send out. I saw it the first time I opened the email.Are you getting so bent out of shape in the false idea that I thought you wrote this stuff or is it because you believe what you're posting and are getting angry that I'm posting facts back that discredit the mishagos from their blog? If the first, I'm sorry if you misguidedly thought I was posting like you wrote it; if it's the second, I don't care if it got you angry. I post on hate mongering sites all over the web when I see ,for lack of a better term, garbage that denigrates Judaism by twisting what Judaic concepts and writings really mean. So, in ending, I won't be deleting these posts; I'll be posting right back at them. Because, if even just one person in the dialogue reads my rebuttal to this stuff and sees the phoney pseudo-intellectual drivel of this SamsonBlinded site, I win. I'll have destroyed one more piece of hate in the world. Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Shalom alechem and have a nice day ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date: 3/9/2009 1:50:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM, wrote: Hello youngbarzel at gmail.com, In reference to your comment: In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. Paul Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany. He stated once that,"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." So it goes with Arab propaganda concerning the so called "refugees" and the myth that Israel evicted them from the land in 1948. Considering the Arabs were allied with the Nazis, with the Mufti of Jerusalem even having an office in Berlin, it's easy to see they learned from their Nazi partners the practice of Goebbels very well. Maybe an examination of what was in Arab papers will enlighten to the "reason" they fled. ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes,,belongings and everything they possessed." ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..." ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in." THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land." "FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." - British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date: 3/9/2009 8:08:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Welcome to the end of time' And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There is no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for subjugation to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is the man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic king needs to give signs, perform miracles,. or resurrect the dead.. Rabbi Akiva and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." Some sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did so to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, imagined some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting peace and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to rebuild the Temple. Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state during the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully gathered the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish communities in Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was a Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, without the Jews rioting against the nations. The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was never a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our cousins, the children of Esau. Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of Seth" (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from Seth through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the messiah will fight the entire world. That's something Israel might be eventually forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam meant the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with Egypt. Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land's end (Mediterranean shore)." The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. Like in the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish community bosses and atheist rabbis - arose to lead the blind into the pit of assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, Canada, West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its victims and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine plan. Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly dissociate from Jewishness. Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall not follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah considers good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very long period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don't need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every recent generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir Kahane, Avraham Stern. God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a good number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward wind, blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The Purim miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot became madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. After all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after Yitzhak Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of Judea to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under the Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles... The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations - not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times - hardly two dozen in a thousand years - but recently the prophecy surged. There are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman of Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in Ukrainian pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and less prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. Our times saw the Cain's curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced medical procedures help alleviate the women's pain during childbirth. Advances in agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was there a shortage of doomsayers. I'm not eager to join their ridiculed ranks, but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar' watchers that the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near... Even Rambam, though quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, offered his own estimate, now long expired. God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year - to Judea after Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn't and perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will in 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then we sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a forty-year countdown? There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that's a prophecy. The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman's ten sons are hanged, and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the point home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, screamed "The Purim 1946" at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed from the king's decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in Siberia. There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such oddity can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God performs miracles without violating the laws of nature - but there are just too many coincidences. You can leave a comment at http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/2c9aeaa3/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Mon Mar 9 16:30:25 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:30:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The clock is ticking..... In-Reply-To: <008401c9a0b1$541afc40$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <855590370903061218k742ee7c1w6e6802428e482c7@mail.gmail.com> <008401c9a0b1$541afc40$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <49B58A71.6050002@gninc.ca> Amen Cornie mhyde wrote: > > Hanoch, > > > > Very interesting article that we all should read carefully and take > note of the day and hour we live in. The rapture doctrine of some > forms of Christianity looks good after reading this article, but Im > afraid the only thing we can do when the rain starts is get in the > Ark. Hashem is our only stronghold and salvation. > > > > marvin > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young > *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 3:19 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] The clock is ticking..... > > > > **The Iran-Israel nuclear endgame is now much closer** > > */Iranian Threat, Israel Politics - Feb 26, 2009 > Edwin Black /* > > > > In recent days, four key developments have clicked in to edge Iran and > Israel much closer to a military denouement with profound consequences > for American oil that the nation is not prepared to meet. > > What has happened? > > First, Iran has proven it can successfully launch a satellite into > outer space as it did on February 2. Teheran claimed, to the > incredulity of Western governments, that the satellite was to monitor > earthquakes and enhance communications. Few believe that, especially > since America's own space program continuously launches unpublished > military satellite missions. Teheran plans three more satellites this > year, creating an easily weaponized space net that worries American > military planners. > > Second, the International Atomic Energy Agency last week admitted that > it had underestimated Iran's nuclear stockpile by about one-third. The > watchdog group now confirms Iran possesses 2,227 lbs. of nuclear > material, sufficient to create at least one nuclear bomb. That > stockpile includes 1,010 kilograms of low-enriched uranium > hexafluoride, or approximately 700 kilograms containing the vital > uranium 235 isotope, the stuff needed to weaponize. > > Third, Iran has ramped up its enrichment program with thousands of new > homegrown, highly advanced centrifuges. As /The Cutting Edge News > /reported in April 2008, Iran wants 6,000 centrifuges to speed the > enrichment of weapons-grade material. The number of working > centrifuges now exceeds 5,400, including 164 new ones believed to be > the faster and more efficient IR-2 and IR-3 models made in Iran. These > new Iranian centrifuges are at least as sophisticated as its recently > imported P-2 models. > > American policymakers are now convinced that Iran, despite all > protests and charades, is in a mad dash to create a deliverable > nuclear weapon. The Obama administration has almost openly abandoned > the assertions of the CIA's much-questioned 2008 National Intelligence > Estimate that concluded Iran was not pursuing nuclear weaponry for the > simple reason that its atomic program and military programs were > housed in separate buildings. > > Fourth, Binyamin Netanyahu has just become prime minister of Israel. > He is determined to take action before - not after - Iran achieves its > nuclear potential. This creates a volatile, hair-trigger situation > that could explode at any moment. Hence, the endgame is now vastly > closer than it was in mid-January, when many believed Israel might > take action during the lame-duck interregnum. > > Israeli countermeasures to date have included a massive international > covert program of equipment sabotage, assassination of key nuclear > personnel and a vibrant diplomatic offensive. But all these efforts > combined amount to nothing more than delaying tactics, as Iran is > irrevocably determined to achieve a nuclear weapon as fast as > possible. Many believe such a weapon will be used to fulfill its > prediction that Israel will soon be wiped off the map. > > THE CONSEQUENCES for this confrontation are apocalyptic because Iran's > full partner in this enterprise is Russia. The Russian company > Atomstroiexport has provided most if not all of the nuclear material > for the 1,000 megawatt Bushehr reactor, along with thousands of > technicians to service and operate it. > > Following its invasion of Georgia, Moscow forged ahead with final > delivery plans for the S-300 advanced air defense system which can > track scores of IAF airborne intruders simultaneously, whether > low-level drones or high-altitude missiles, and shoot them down. But > the S-300, the linchpin of Iran's defense against Israel, will not be > fully operational for several months, creating a narrow window for > Israel to act. Indeed, Russia has just announced a pause in missile > deliveries for the system in fear that it will accelerate an Israeli > response. > > Iran, of course, has repeatedly threatened to counter any such attack > by closing the Strait of Hormuz, as well as launching missiles against > the Ras Tanura Gulf oil terminal and bombarding the indispensable > Saudi oil facility at Abqaiq which is responsible for some 65 percent > of Saudi production. Any one of these military options, let alone all > three, would immediately shut off 40% of all seaborne oil, 18% of > global oil, and some 20% of America's daily consumption. > > America's oil vulnerability has been back-burnered due to the economic > crisis and the plunge in gasoline prices. However, the price of > gasoline will not mitigate an interruption of oil flow. The price of > oil does not impact its ability to flow through blocked or destroyed > facilities. Indeed, an interruption would not restore prices to those > of last summer - which Russian and Saudi oil officials say is needed - > but probably zoom the pump cost to $20 per gallon. > > American oil vulnerability in recent months has escalated precisely > because of oil's precipitous drop to $35 to $40 a barrel. At that > price, America's number one supplier, Canada, which supplies some 2 > million out of 20 million barrels of oil a day, cannot afford to > produce. Canadian oil sand petroleum is not viable below $70 a barrel. > Much of Canada's supply has already been cancelled or indefinitely > postponed. America's strategic petroleum reserve can only keep that > country moving for approximately 57 days. > > THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, like the Bush administration before it, has > developed no plan or contingency legislation for an oil interruption, > such as a surge in retrofitting America's 250 million gas guzzling > cars and trucks - each with a 10-year life - or a stimulus of the > alternate fuel production needed to rapidly get off oil. Ironically, > Iran has undertaken such a crash program converting some 20% of its > gasoline fleet yearly to compressed natural gas (CNG) as a > countermeasure to Western nuclear sanctions against the Teheran regime > that could completely block the flow of gasoline to Iran. Iran has no > refining capability. > > The question of when and how this endgame will play out is not known > by anyone. Israeli leaders wish to avoid military preemption at all > costs if possible. But many feel the military moment must come; and > when that moment does come, it will be swift, highly technologic and > in the twinkling of an eye. But as one informed official quipped, > "Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know." > > /The writer is The New York Times best-selling investigative author of > IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and the just released The > Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops - or the Day Before > (Dialog Press). / > > > > > 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: > 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 > This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your > browser is not standards compliant, download one here > . > Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/f27752f1/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 9 16:40:50 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <661815.45349.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Y'all, Welcome to the Dialogue Miriam!! If I may insert my 2 cents here. It seems to me that the Original Luke/Acts?was written prior to the death of James/Ya'acov ben David (62 C.E.). It also seems to me that the lineage in the Book of Luke was inserted into the text, at some later point. Notice, that it is?in an odd place if you compare the three narratives - Matthew, Mark, and Luke.?If you remove the lineage, half of the problem is gone. There may have been another original rationale for the lineage in certain records, but was inserted into The Book Luke out of a misguided motivation. We should also notice the emphasis throughout?is that Yeshua is the son of David. Without that inserted lineage, we have no basis for a Virgin Conception except in Matthew One. Along with this insertion into Luke, Matthew 1:18-25 had to be touched up a little to create a virgin birth conception and birth scenario. The true lineage, in my mind, is given in Matthew 1:1-17...it is really as simple as that. The rest of the Nazarene Testimony is clear - he was the son (sperm) of David. And he would only be called?such by the Orthodox Jewish writers of the Nazarene Testimony, if Yosef ben David were his legitimate father. Ahavah v'Shalom, Tracy Phillip Osborne I have a book on this subject: www.OnHigh.org/VirginBirth1.htm ________________________________ From: "MiriamL613 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 12:13:31 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In a message dated 3/7/2009 11:27:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes:?? It doesn't address the prophetic statement regarding?a virgin birth associated with mashiach (Isaiah 7:14).? I bring this up not to contest the conclusions but because the proponents of the virgin birth validity see this passage as confirmation.? I think it must be discussed.? I don't think it necessarily excludes Yeshua from messiah-ship,?the whole issue of "dual messiah" (messiah ben Judah, messiah ben Joseph) is not discussed.>> ? It's quite true that there can be multiple interpretations of prophesies and I have seen many intepretations of Isaiah 53 as applying both to Israel as a whole and to the Messiah specifically.? However, I have never seen anything in Jewish commentaries which suggests that Isaiah 7:14 had anything to do either with a virgin or with the messiah.? The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah" - and the Hebrew word translated by most Christian bibles in Isaiah 7:14 is "alma" which means "young woman."? There are vast amounts of discussions about the messiah in the midrash and legends, and none of them suggest that he would be born of a virgin.? ? One would think that both Matthew and Luke, in taking the time to trace Jesus's paternal?lineage, would make a point of mentioning this very unusual aspect, i.e., a son being created from the seed of Mary.? Why not trace Mary's lineage!? Matthew is very specific that all the men and their sons mentioned in Chapter 1 led to the birth of the husband of Mary. (1:16)? Why bother talking about her husband's lineage if hers was so much more significant and meaningful? ? My personal opinion is that the Joseph mentioned as the husband of Mary, in Matthew, was the physical father of Jesus.?? They were betrothed when she conceived, so with or without sexual relations, Mary's husband was the daddy.? Not divorcing her would have been a virtual admission of fatherhood, because there's no option for a Jewish man to stay married to a woman who willingly had sexual relations with another man. He would have been required to divorce her. ? As for the dual messiah concept in Judaism, the Messiah son of Joseph refers not simply to any man named Joseph, but Joseph the son of Jacob, through his son Ephraim.? It's a completely different tribe and needs to result in a completely different person.? The only time the midrash ever contemplates them both being the same person would be via reincarnation. ? The Land of Israel was divided into sections to be inherited by each specific tribe.? If one man was as much a member of his mother's tribe as of his father's tribe, then a son whose father was of the tribe of Judah and whose mother was of the tribe of Benjamin could have both lineages.? Then if he married a woman whose parents were of the tribe of Dan and of the tribe of Asher, the offspring would have all four tribal lineages.? Within a few generations, every Jew would have all 12 tribal lineages! and, in effect, have none.? It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line.? If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood,?he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism.? ? Miriam ________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/d742f9d9/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 9 16:41:23 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:41:23 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Message-ID: Hiya Marvin, hope all's well with you and yours.Hmmm,where to start? First I'm trying to see where you're "missing the point".Sorry,can't see it. By your own words you pay deference and give worship to G-d, so taking a stab at it, I'm assuming from that point, you are wondering how to live your life? Just by your own expressions of faith in your letter,you are already walking the road. As for me, using a term that is commonly understood by all, I would be an Orthodox Jew. I prefer the term shomer mitzvot ( one that follows the commandments). A can of peas needs a label so you know what's inside; a man does not.So,with that in mind, we are the same.The only difference is I am obligated to follow certain rules.To make that point and to show it's true, a man once asked a great sage, "Why did G-d create man as one man and one woman, when He could have easily created the world full as He did with the animals, fish and plants?" The sage replied,"So no man can say, "My father is greater than your father."'' We're on the same road, just driving different cars,if you like. I'm 55,almost 56, married, and the list goes like this: my faith,my family, my Harley and fishing at the Jersey shore. The last two are not always in that order, depends if they're biting. The Noahide Laws are the rules you should apply to life. These are the laws that Noah was given to follow after the flood that were the original laws given to man and are discussed in the Talmud,Tractate Sanheddrin and in the Mishneh Torah by Rambam,Kings and Their Wars. I'm assuming you are from a Christian background,so if I'm wrong, don't take it personal. These Noahide Laws are also to be found in the Christian bible.In Acts, Paul is summoned to appear before the original disciples to answer to the rumor he was teaching non Torah observance to people who were becoming followers of their way.No doubt you have read about the debate whether non Jewish believers had to follow Torah law in that book where it was decided that they did not have to do so.The rules for the non Jewish ones were decided and these conform with what the Noahide Laws dictate. These were the minimum rules, but taking on other of the commandments by choice was not forbidden except for a few.To give a better perspective on what I'm saying, here's a basic idea laid out showing it. Acts15:17: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18: Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. This is the foreword of the laws that Paul gave to the Gentiles. G-d's works from the beginning of the world includes laws that man must live by.Cain broke one of these laws by murdering his brother and was punished.If these basic laws did not exist,then what law did Cain break?What sin did he commit? 19: Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: Verse 19 shows the decision of James that Gentiles are not bound to the Torah laws.This is further elaborated in verse 24,where it says "to whom we gave no such commandment" 20: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1Tim5:19: Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. A definate reflection that it requires two or more witnesses to convict a man.In Torah law,there must be no less than two witnesses.This is part of the original 7 laws to establish courts of justice. Rom:13:9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. This is a reflection of what Hillel wrote 100 yera sprior to Paul and 40 years prior to Jesus,"What you dislike yourself,do not do unto your neighbor".It also reconfirms the Noahide laws listed below. Eph:4:28: Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Is the fist part of the Noahide laws The Seven Noachide Laws ==================================== 1) It is forbidden to eat a limb or any meat that was severed from a live animal.<-- prohibition of eating blood, Acts 15:20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 2) It is forbidden to blaspheme the name of G-d.<--Also Acts 15 by prohibiting idols 3) It is forbidden to steal or rob.<-- Eph4:28,Rom:13:9: 9. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 4) It is obligatory to appoint judges and set up a court of law in order to pronounce and mete out just decisions to all mankind.<-- 1Tim5:19 19. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 5) It is forbidden to worship idols. <- No idols,Acts15:20, But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 6) It is forbidden to commit sexual sins (adultery, homosexuality, bestiality).<- No fornication,Acts15:20,Rom:13:9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery,... 7) It is forbidden to murder a human being.Rom:13:9: For this, .....Thou shalt not kill, ..It is already established earlier that the Torah laws were not to be followed by the gentiles,yet these laws,which are the Noahide laws also contained in Torah were to be followed by the Gentiles as taught by Paul. Ok,that covers pretty much the first parts of your post. Since I was guessing at what you were looking for as far as basic information, I hope it is of some use.As for your part on the Arab/ Israeli conflict, let's skip the apolitical things since this particular dialogue chain is concerned with end days if you go by the title.Let's keep a religious concept point of view. What does the Quran say about end of days concerning Israel?Yes,it does say a few things concerning the land of Israel in there.Let's start with end of days and then a few more quotes. Sura17:103 Then We (Allah) said to the Israelites,"Dwell in this land.When the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled,We shall assemble you all together." Sura5:19-22 : People of the Book! "Bear in mind the words of Moses to his people.He said,"Remember,my people,the favor which G-d has bestowed upon you.He raised up prophets from among you,made you kings, and given to you that which He has given no other nation. Enter,my people,the holy land which G-d has assigned for you Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What's that? The Quran says the land belongs to the Jews? How can that be when the Arab world,who claim to be muslim and follow Islam are saying it is their land? Don't they believe their own book? While Mohammed later criticizes the Jews for their sins and their refusal to accept Mohammed's message, he never says that, as punishment, Allah has revoked their title to the land. Hence the title still stands, and Muslim anti-Zionists are kafir (apostates).Indeed, this is the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, who condemns the Palestinian uprising as "fitnah" (sedition), which is forbidden in Islam as long as the Muslims are granted religious freedom.Do Muslims have religious freedom in Israel? Israel gave them control of the Temple Mount. Does the Quran mention the exile of Israel from the land?It sure does.But,... Sura 17:4 says, "And We [Allah] gave (clear) warning to the children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!" The succeeding verses tell us that the punishment referred to was banishment from the land. But "twice" means twice, not three times; hence the Jews, having been banished from the land once by the Babylonians and a second time by Rome, will never again be banished from the land. According to the Qur'an, Israel is an eternal nation. ========Original Message======== Subj:RE: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date:3/9/2009 3:45:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:mhyde7 at tds.net To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, I love reading other peoples mail, you always learn so much, even though as a child my mother taught me you just don?t do that. But that was before ? the internet?. My question, being the gentile I am, who tries to worship and follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I seem to be missing the point!. Maybe, you could give us some background from where you are coming from to better help us(me) to understand your position. As to the fleeing Arabs / Palestinians? , I?m reminded of a similar incident in the tanack. What was the other side of their rational reasoning? Not really trying to start something, just wondering if you believe in that mystical, spiritual other worldliness that is only in hashem?s control. Anywho, be gentle with me, I?m just a gentile trying to learn. Shalom, marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Hello Hanoch In reference to your comment:(actually not a comment but a posting from another blog and writer) Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch I simply hit reply and your email address is what is shown above the In reference to your comment,it's what the software does when a clipped quote is highlighted.. You can see above I manually changed it to your name since you seem upset at the way the program is designed to work.I also added to the In ref part so it doesn't seem like it's saying you wrote the piece. Yes, I can very see where you get these posts from that you send out. I saw it the first time I opened the email.Are you getting so bent out of shape in the false idea that I thought you wrote this stuff or is it because you believe what you're posting and are getting angry that I'm posting facts back that discredit the mishagos from their blog? If the first, I'm sorry if you misguidedly thought I was posting like you wrote it; if it's the second, I don't care if it got you angry. I post on hate mongering sites all over the web when I see ,for lack of a better term, garbage that denigrates Judaism by twisting what Judaic concepts and writings really mean. So, in ending, I won't be deleting these posts; I'll be posting right back at them. Because, if even just one person in the dialogue reads my rebuttal to this stuff and sees the phoney pseudo-intellectual drivel of this SamsonBlinded site, I win. I'll have destroyed one more piece of hate in the world. Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Shalom alechem and have a nice day ========Original Message======== Subj:Re: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date:3/9/2009 1:50:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:youngbarzel at gmail.com To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Is your response a Purim Shpiel?!? Firstly, YoungBarzel is my email address, Hanoch is my name - it's easy enough to see, it's at the bottom of all the emails I write. If you read it, you'll see that it's from the SamsonBlinded blog - I didn't write it. You're welcome to take up any issues you want with the author (his email address is listed at the bottom)...or simply hit 'delete.' Hanoch On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM, wrote: Hello youngbarzel at gmail.com, In reference to your comment: In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. Paul Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany. He stated once that,"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." So it goes with Arab propaganda concerning the so called "refugees" and the myth that Israel evicted them from the land in 1948. Considering the Arabs were allied with the Nazis, with the Mufti of Jerusalem even having an office in Berlin, it's easy to see they learned from their Nazi partners the practice of Goebbels very well. Maybe an examination of what was in Arab papers will enlighten to the "reason" they fled. ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes,,belongings and everything they possessed." ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..." ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in." THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land." "FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." - British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 ========Original Message======== Subj:[Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time' Date:3/9/2009 8:08:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:youngbarzel at gmail.com To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Welcome to the end of time' And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There is no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for subjugation to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is the man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine that the messianic king needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle." Some sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did so to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too, imagined some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting peace and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to rebuild the Temple. Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state during the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully gathered the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish communities in Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was a Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision, without the Jews rioting against the nations. The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was never a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our cousins, the children of Esau. Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of Seth" (Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from Seth through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the messiah will fight the entire world. That?s something Israel might be eventually forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam meant the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with Egypt. Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to (Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land?s end (Mediterranean shore)." The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel. Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust. Like in the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished, unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai. The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish community bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America, Canada, West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its victims and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine plan. Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly dissociate from Jewishness. Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall not follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah considers good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice. As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very long period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don?t need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every recent generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir Kahane, Avraham Stern. God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a good number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward wind, blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots, which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The Purim miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot became madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances. After all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after Yitzhak Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of Judea to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under the Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles... The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations ? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason. The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times ? hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged. There are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman of Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in Ukrainian pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and less prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt. Our times saw the Cain?s curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced medical procedures help alleviate the women?s pain during childbirth. Advances in agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells theoretically offer almost unlimited life span. The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was there a shortage of doomsayers. I?m not eager to join their ridiculed ranks, but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar? watchers that the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near... Even Rambam, though quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times, offered his own estimate, now long expired. God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn?t and perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will in 1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then we sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a forty-year countdown? There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that?s a prophecy. The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman?s ten sons are hanged, and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the point home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned, screamed ?The Purim 1946? at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed from the king?s decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953, Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in Siberia. There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such oddity can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God performs miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many coincidences. You can leave a comment at http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 9 21:56:03 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 02:56:03 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Price of a Miracle" In-Reply-To: <855590370903080714o23fa3caega88d595981f31807@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031020090256.22393.49B5D6C30000854E0000577922230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> This is a very interesting concept. It puts me in mind of a verse from my Christian studies (I don't often do this, but I think the parallel is far too coincidental here); Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Yeah, it's KJV but it will suffice. Yeshua often spoke in terms of "This Generation", I think this was very much in line with Jewish messianic thinking. The whole point of his message, as well as that of John the Immerser, was Teshuvah. It seems that this generation failed as have many since. Christians in general don't make this distiction, since they see Yeshua as divine, they assume he is speaking to all of humanity and hence extrapolate that to Paul's rendition of an evil world, (I speak from first hand experience). It seems G-d gives miracles (without breaking the laws of nature He has established) and expects us to return to Him in response. So not only are we expected to receive these miracles, we are supposed to recognize them. As a whole, I don't think we (Jew and Gentile) are faring very well in this respect. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- The Price of a Miracle by Rabbi Lazer Brody We often take for granted the fact that we, the Jewish people, live on miracles. The Jewish people in Israel especially exist on a higher-than-nature plateau that defies any natural course of events. Only an idiot would attribute Israel's existence to military might and so forth. On a military level, as we evr-so-painfully see despite the recent Gaza war, Israel still has no technological/military answer to missile warfare, with missiles still falling in the south of Israel, from Ashkelon to Sderot and all points in between. The Hamas missiles are a tiny threat compared to the quantity and quality of the Hizbolla, Syrian, and Iranian missiles aimed at every square centimeter of our beloved Holy Land this very moment. People have the mistaken impression that we can sit back and do nothing while Hashem gives us miracles. That's wrong. The miracle of Purim was only after Esther said to Mordechai (Esther 4:16), "Go gather all the Jews... fast for me, don't eat or drink for 3 days and 3 nights; I and my handmaidens shall fast likewise." In other words, the entire Jewish people made complete teshuva and returned to Hashem. The existential threat of this generation is just as bad as it was in the time of Haman. Achmedinejad and Assad's designs together with their proxies Hamas and Hisbolla, as well as global Islamofascist objectives, are no different than Haman's platform. Although we don't know what our own politicians stand for, since they promise one thing before elections and quickly change their minds after the elections for political expediency, our neighbors are not politically expedient. They have a clear political and military agenda that's based on the destruction of the Jewish people, just like Haman. The words "Israel" and Zionism" are only excuses for the desire to kill Jews. Every Adar, Hashem renews the of the miracle of our survival. That's what the joy of Purim is all about. Yet, miracles have a price tag - they behoove us. When there's no teshuva to pay for the miracle, Hashem must take a public sacrifice from the greatest and purest tzaddikim of our generation. That explains the brutal murder of Erez Levanon during his personal prayer to Hashem exactly two years ago in Adar, and the barbaric massacre of the 8 Mercaz HaRav boys during their Torah study last year on Rosh Chodesh Adar. Who needs more martyrs? Let's gather all the Jews and commit to genuine teshuva. If that's too hard, let's help spread emuna in the world. We can start by teaching the bedtime "Shma Yisrael" prayer to every Jewish child we know. Here is the The Shma Prayer in PDF with the original Hebrew, transliteration, and translation; send it to everyone you know. Our sages tell us that the mitzva of saying Shma Yisrael" alone is enough to save us from any and all calamity. Happy Purim week. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/0b1f3ae9/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 23:12:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:12:26 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] New Gush Katif video - MUST see] In-Reply-To: <49A93332.7020705@westnet.com.au> References: <49A93332.7020705@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903092112x164e904fw6fd3997924b1cd25@mail.gmail.com> Shalom Achi, Hope the weather in Oz is okay. Yeah, throwing up is definitely the first reaction...I totally agree. It turns out (according to Arutz-7) that many of the first combat units entering Gaza had been arrested there as teens, a few years before during the protests. What a disaster, what a mistake...it's so hard to see this and have any joy during Purim. Despite horrible mistakes like the destruction of Gush Katif, may we merit HaShem's rachamim (mercy). We are going to SO need it.... *Hanoch * On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 5:50 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shavua Tov Hanoch, > > the scars of the Gerush are still visible and tangible. > The expelled are still waiting for compensation after 3 and a half years. > Dror and Eli's applications have been stalled amid much political and > judicial red tape. > > Yesh Din v'Yesh Dayan. > > Eli has asked me to send the group some photographs of Neve Dekelim. > Makes you want to throw up. > This is grand theft at its height of audacity. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > * > > Click here: YouTube - ??? ??? ??? > A new Gush Katif video ....this was sent to me this week...you have to see > it. It's in Hebrew, but the images need no translation. > > * Hanoch* > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090309/6a525ab2/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Mon Mar 9 23:28:20 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:28:20 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Project Message-ID: I have the greatest sense that this project will be a wonderful work with the help of many of you. Tomorrow evening I will send out the aliyot that have not been taken for the reading of Ki Thissa. I am compiling a spreadsheet with requests from all of you that have written thus far. I will be working on a way to show what is taken and what is left in the coming weeks. My goal is to have the torah reading completed and posted no later than Friday evening each week, but earlier if possible so if you choose one of the aliyot for Ki Thissa I will need the file emailed to me before Friday evening. James also suggested that we set something up at the Charlotte meeting in April to allow people to record their reading. Some have written me to say that they are interested so this may be a great way to get a lot of these done over a single weekend. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/bb536b3b/attachment.html From MiriamL613 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 03:37:47 2009 From: MiriamL613 at aol.com (MiriamL613 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 04:37:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/9/2009 10:18:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes: I was completely with ya up to the last sentence. No that I disagree with it, I'm just not clear on the relevance to the rest of your post. Please explain.-- John C. >> The last sentence you are referring to, I believe is: "It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line. If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood, he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism." The relevance to the post is that there are a lot of Christians who think it's OK if Mary was the one through whom Jesus inherited Davidic lineage. That's an invention having nothing to do with Judaism. The priests in the church also do not have to have a blood lineage requirement in order to be a priest. Priests are defined in the Bible as being the physical descendants of Levi and Aaron. It seems the only thing the church kept, having to do with the Levitical priests, were their tithes! Miriam **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/b52b982f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 05:35:34 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:35:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" Message-ID: <855590370903100335t11c82b3k8d97a467840ec0d4@mail.gmail.com> >From Rav Lazer Brody: Each Generation's Haman Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light Purim Sameach! * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/222fc76b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 10 08:25:32 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:25:32 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Zion Needs the Messiah" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <031020091325.136.49B66A4C00047D510000008822230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks for the clarification Miriam, Just for the sake of argument, I grew up Catholic and it never seemed to me, in any of their teachings, that the Catholic Priesthood ever claimed any descent from the Levitical or Aaronic priesthood. Beyond a mysterious claim to be somehow spritually descended from the Apostle Peter, the Catholic Priesthood seemed to be more modeled after the priesthoods of the Roman and Hellenistic Temples of the first and second centuries. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from MiriamL613 at aol.com: -------------- In a message dated 3/9/2009 10:18:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlson_john at bellsouth.net writes: I was completely with ya up to the last sentence. No that I disagree with it, I'm just not clear on the relevance to the rest of your post. Please explain.-- John C. >> The last sentence you are referring to, I believe is: "It is simply a fact that tribal lineage follows the paternal line. If someone wants to invent a religion, such as the Catholic religion which took upon themselves the title "priest" fully disconnected from anything to do with the Levitical priesthood, he or she should just know that it is not Torah Judaism." The relevance to the post is that there are a lot of Christians who think it's OK if Mary was the one through whom Jesus inherited Davidic lineage. That's an invention having nothing to do with Judaism. The priests in the church also do not have to have a blood lineage requirement in order to be a priest. Priests are defined in the Bible as being the physical descendants of Levi and Aaron. It seems the only thing the church kept, having to do with the Levitical priests, were their tithes! Miriam Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/4ea0e8ee/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Tue Mar 10 08:32:59 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:32:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah Translations Israel References: <49B58D0E.54EBA.1D31@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: I note that verses of Scripture seemingly have different context in various versions. In relation to Messiah, sometimes it seems to me that Messiah and Israel are intertwined... as if Hashem within the context of Messiah will bring Israel to be a beacon to the rest of humanity. With that said, I love the poetry of this verse, which to me speaks of the Messiah, but may also speak of Israel. Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Stephen From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Mar 10 09:13:33 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:13:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Message-ID: <009001c9a18a$67149250$0400a8c0@marvin> Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/ba186836/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Mar 10 13:04:02 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" In-Reply-To: <855590370903100335t11c82b3k8d97a467840ec0d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903100335t11c82b3k8d97a467840ec0d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73E784FC03364011854C7FA484FA7220@bettylaptop> Thanks, Hanoch for sending this out.in the face of the darkest evil, the Light is still there! And because of that Light, Baruch HaShem, we are still here! Purim Sameach! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" >From Rav Lazer Brody: Each Generation's Haman Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light Purim Sameach! Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/f5eb2a02/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 13:08:42 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:08:42 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" In-Reply-To: <73E784FC03364011854C7FA484FA7220@bettylaptop> References: <855590370903100335t11c82b3k8d97a467840ec0d4@mail.gmail.com> <73E784FC03364011854C7FA484FA7220@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <855590370903101108h21086f1ax71474f0ae91c2882@mail.gmail.com> Hey Betty, Now all we have to do is bring that Light to the rest of the world! :-) Miss ya!! Purim Sameach!! * Hanoch * On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Thanks, Hanoch for sending this out?in the face of the darkest evil, the > Light is still there! And because of that Light, Baruch HaShem, we are > still here! > > > > Purim Sameach! > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:36 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" > > > > From Rav Lazer Brody: > *Each Generation's Haman > * > > Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the > bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: > > Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light > > > > Purim Sameach! > > * Hanoch* > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/a5fcba78/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Mar 10 13:14:22 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:14:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" In-Reply-To: <855590370903101108h21086f1ax71474f0ae91c2882@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903100335t11c82b3k8d97a467840ec0d4@mail.gmail.com><73E784FC03364011854C7FA484FA7220@bettylaptop> <855590370903101108h21086f1ax71474f0ae91c2882@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Absolutely! BTW, that was the quickest reply I've ever gotten! Miss you too.haven't been able to be very active on the list lately, but always good to hear from you. Thanks, Hanoch & a Purim Sameach back to you! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" Hey Betty, Now all we have to do is bring that Light to the rest of the world! :-) Miss ya!! Purim Sameach!! Hanoch On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Betty Givin wrote: Thanks, Hanoch for sending this out.in the face of the darkest evil, the Light is still there! And because of that Light, Baruch HaShem, we are still here! Purim Sameach! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" >From Rav Lazer Brody: Each Generation's Haman Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light Purim Sameach! Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/c0d539e6/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Mar 10 14:10:33 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah Translations Israel In-Reply-To: References: <49B58D0E.54EBA.1D31@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: Stephen, I have always loved this verse, taken from the 'servant passages' in the book of Isaiah...especially the beginning words with the rhetorical question..."Is it a light thing..." Thank you for bringing it to my mind today. Shalom, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of stephen Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:33 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah Translations Israel I note that verses of Scripture seemingly have different context in various versions. In relation to Messiah, sometimes it seems to me that Messiah and Israel are intertwined... as if Hashem within the context of Messiah will bring Israel to be a beacon to the rest of humanity. With that said, I love the poetry of this verse, which to me speaks of the Messiah, but may also speak of Israel. Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Stephen _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:27:10 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:27:10 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Jihad's coming to Brooklyn... Message-ID: <855590370903101427u689b8309t5658a60d15d4addb@mail.gmail.com> Violent Intruders Attack Brooklyn Synagogues Adar 14, 5769, 10 March 09 11:00 by by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz (IsraelNN.com) For the second time in less than a week, a packed Brooklyn, New York, synagogue has been the target of threats of violence by intruders. On Monday, according to *Yeshiva World News*, an Arab man in his mid-30s entered Boro Park's 'Sephardish Shul' and began making proclamations of jihad. Members of a Jewish volunteer security organization, the Shomrim, apprehended the threatening individual. They held him until police officers arrived at the scene, arresting the suspect. Detectives spoke with the "Middle Eastern man" at a station house near the synagogue. Police officials reminded the community, "If you see something, say something." Security in Brooklyn's heavily Jewish Boro Park area has been stepped up during the Purim holiday. Just two days earlier, a man wielding a butcher's knife burst into a Kerestir Chassidic synagogue in Williamsburg. He initially turned up unarmed and began throwing soda cans at the gathered worshipers, which hit one of them, and returned shortly thereafter with the bladed weapon. The attacker was prevented from using the butcher's knife on anyone by a young man, described as a "friend" of the knife-wielding intruder, who then fled together with him. The recent attacks come just over a month after Chabad-Lubavitch World Headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn was targeted in a series of English-language jihadist videosposted on the Internet. The videos and accompanying texts singled out "770," but also intimated that all Orthodox Jewish organizations were equally worthy of attack by Muslims. The threatening material included images of the 770 synagogue and study house, pictures of the police van out front, and indications of which parts of the building are crowded at what times. The source of the thinly-veiled threats, a group called Revolution Muslim, is domestic to the United States. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/8487101d/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 10 16:34:35 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:34:35 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light"] Message-ID: <49B6DCEB.5060501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d2d7b7ea/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:35:34 -0700 Size: 5793 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d2d7b7ea/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:49:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:49:26 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light"] In-Reply-To: <49B6DCEB.5060501@westnet.com.au> References: <49B6DCEB.5060501@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903101449l4125c98br9b37aa548e9b3152@mail.gmail.com> Amen achi! How's the weather in OZ? Great to hear from you! Purim Sameach (although I guess that was your yesterday, right? LOL), * Hanoch * On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 2:34 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Hanoch, > > Light - Dark > Good - Evil > Love - Hatred > Justice - Tyranny > Truth - Deception > Mercy - Accusation > Blessings - Curses > > truely inspiring material. > > In the end the Revelation of HaShem to Yisrael will bring the good light of > love with true justice and mercy to be a blessing to the nations. > > B'Ahavat Yehudah v'Yisrael > JOE. > > > * > > From Rav Lazer Brody: > Each Generation's Haman > > Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the > bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: > Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light > > Purim Sameach! > * Hanoch* > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/cab12c67/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 10 17:08:59 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:08:59 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!] Message-ID: <49B6E4FB.4030409@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d72e611e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:37:05 EDT Size: 31483 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d72e611e/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 10 17:23:59 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:23:59 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!]] Message-ID: <49B6E87F.4030707@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/910ae4b9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!] Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:08:59 +1000 Size: 36613 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/910ae4b9/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 10 17:32:59 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:32:59 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!]] In-Reply-To: <49B6E87F.4030707@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <031020092232.12391.49B6EA9B000811070000306722218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Excellent news Joe. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, First of all PURIM SAMEACH to you all. There was a Bar Mitzvah at the Beit Knesset last night for the Rabbi's son. Over 300 attended. Nira and Sarita helped with the catering and the result was superb Sephardic kosher cuisine. So we had a double whammy for Purim. On the Cyclone front, Hamish has worked his way down the Queensland coast and has been hovering just north of us for the past day playing ring-a-ring-a-rosie and playing loop the loop. Good news is that it has weakened to a category 3 and is heading away. However , Cyclones in this part of the world do the unexpected. It is still a waiting game with the immediate threat over. It is currently raining with wing gusts up to 60mph. Baruch HaShem and all your prayers of support. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/9b1b0c49/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:21:10 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:21:10 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!]] In-Reply-To: <49B6E87F.4030707@westnet.com.au> References: <49B6E87F.4030707@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Such wonderful news, Joe! Will continue to pray. Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!]] Shalom Hanoch, First of all PURIM SAMEACH to you all. There was a Bar Mitzvah at the Beit Knesset last night for the Rabbi's son. Over 300 attended. Nira and Sarita helped with the catering and the result was superb Sephardic kosher cuisine. So we had a double whammy for Purim. On the Cyclone front, Hamish has worked his way down the Queensland coast and has been hovering just north of us for the past day playing ring-a-ring-a-rosie and playing loop the loop. Good news is that it has weakened to a category 3 and is heading away. However , Cyclones in this part of the world do the unexpected. It is still a waiting game with the immediate threat over. It is currently raining with wing gusts up to 60mph. Baruch HaShem and all your prayers of support. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/ef042121/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 10 20:24:56 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:24:56 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] INSPIRATION Message-ID: <49B712E8.2020506@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/138b5595/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 20:49:43 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Message-ID: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn,?has diligently and tirelessly?cared for her mother, Gena Dumas,?for the past three years.?Her mother?passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/80f3f59e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 20:55:14 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Am praying that HaShem comfort Lynn, and that His perfect Peace envelope and keep her through this time of loss. Love to you both, Pat From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/945cc09d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 10 21:08:28 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:08:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thinking of you and your dear family here Tracy. Betty and I had the same experience with my mother, Hazel, who died in 2007 at age 90. Love, James On Mar 10, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom All, > > My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her > mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away > today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. > > In His Love, > > Tracy > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/b4a2036f/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 10 21:11:43 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:11:43 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Shalom All] Message-ID: <49B71DDF.6000204@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/734f39f4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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From: Tracy Osborne Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Size: 5671 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/734f39f4/attachment.eml From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Mar 10 21:50:31 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:50:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <169B6362ED934A07A6C49B7A252B1AFA@bettylaptop> Yes, Tracy. Our love and prayers go out to you and to your beloved wife, Lynn, and the family. Words seem so empty when considering the magnitude of a loss like this. Our mothers brought us into this world and ties to our mothers generally run very deep, and when our mothers leave this life, it leaves us so empty and grief stricken. One beautiful thing I learned about the Hebrew language is that the Hebrew word for womb has the same root word as the Hebrew word for compassion. Strangely enough, this brought me much comfort when Mom died. James put it so well when our mother died.because since Dad was already gone, he said, it makes "orphans" in a sense.because those who brought us into the world are no longer here. May HaShem give Lynn the special comfort and strength she needs, and may He bless you, Tracy, with an extra measure of strength and love to give to her. And please tell Lynn if she ever feels the need to just talk, I will be more than willing to listen. My love to you both, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom All Thinking of you and your dear family here Tracy. Betty and I had the same experience with my mother, Hazel, who died in 2007 at age 90. Love, James On Mar 10, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/e8730d95/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 22:06:58 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:06:58 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Message-ID: Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/6645fd81/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 22:08:05 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:08:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" Message-ID: Thanks Hanoch.This is an excellent piece of info.Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] "Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light" Date: 3/10/2009 6:35:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: >From Rav Lazer Brody: _Each Generation's Haman_ (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/03/each-generations-haman.html) Purim takes us from the dark threat of each generation's Haman to the bright light of Torah, as we'll see in the following clip: _Click here: YouTube - Purim: The Evil Haman or the Bright Light_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNEPBRdssGY) Purim Sameach! Hanoch _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/b4e2e5ba/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 10 22:10:36 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:10:36 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031120090310.2470.49B72BAB00009482000009A622230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Tracy, My love to both of you. I lost my Mom a couple of years ago, she was also 80 and suffered through a long traumatic illness. My heart goes out to you both. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/84c9543b/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 22:22:14 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:22:14 EDT Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!] Message-ID: Hi Joe. The Nazis didn't achieve what Haman attempted Joe. Yes, millions died including my own relatives, but we are still here.Am Yisroel Chai. Alechem shalom, Chizkiyahu Shmuel ben Moshe HaLevi ========Original Message======== Subj: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting!] Date: 3/10/2009 6:09:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _jid at westnet.com.au_ (mailto:jid at westnet.com.au) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom Hezakiah, "Purimfest 1946" Julius Schtreicher - editor of Der Sturmer, the Nazi propaganda newspaper - shouted out with flaming hatred in his eyes, just as the trap door opened. Great commentary...... but one major ommission !!!!!! The Jews of Shushan were liberated. 6,000,000 Jewish men, women and children were butchered at the hands of the Nazis during the Holocaust, may HaShem vindicate their innocent blood. The shout of Julius Schtreicher was not because he knew Gematria or Zohar, the defiant shout was because he knew that the Nazi regime had achieved what Haman had attempted but was not capable of achieving. This is not commentary but cold hard facts. Shalom Alechem JOE. X-Account-Key: account2 X-Mozilla-Keys: Return-Path: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org Received: from zim-mta02.web.westnet.com.au (LHLO zim-mta02.web.westnet.com.au) (192.168.39.32) by webmail02.westnet.com.au with LMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:37:25 +0900 (WST) Received: from hosted01.westnet.com.au (unknown [203.10.1.210]) by zim-mta02.web.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1068B13E42B for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:37:24 +0900 (WST) Received: from hosted01.westnet.com.au (hosted01.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by hosted01.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id D2FB12BF2B3 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:37:24 +0900 (WST) Received: from www2.sssecure.net (www2.sssecure.net [67.192.48.154]) by hosted01.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0102BF0F0 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:37:21 +0900 (WST) Received: (qmail 21781 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2009 08:37:19 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO www2.sssecure.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Mar 2009 08:37:19 -0500 Delivered-To: 342-dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Received: (qmail 21614 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2009 08:37:17 -0500 Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (205.188.144.208) by 192.168.1.9 with SMTP; 9 Mar 2009 08:37:17 -0500 Received: from Hezakiah4 at aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id d.d21.49d00802 (14467) for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:37:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:37:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5378 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-BeenThere: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org List-Id: dialogue.rootsoffaith.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1940098753==" Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org Errors-To: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org X-PMX-Branch: TNG-Incoming X-PMX-Virus: 5.3.3.310218, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2009.3.9.131919 - CLEAN X-PMX-Spam: 7%, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS 0, NO_REAL_NAME 0, __AOL_FROM 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __CP_NAME_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY 0, __CTYPE_MULTIPART 0, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_MIXED 0, __FRAUD_419_BADTHINGS 0, __FRAUD_419_BODY_WEBMAIL 0, __FRAUD_419_WEBMAIL 0, __FRAUD_419_WEBMAIL_FROM 0, __HAS_LIST_HEADER 0, __HAS_LIST_HELP 0, __HAS_LIST_SUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_LIST_UNSUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HIGHBITS 0, __MIME_HTML 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_SUBJ_9 0 Personally I have never read something like this article beyond the pale of Arab propaganda sites,white supremist sites and the ever so popular dispenser of hate, Jewwatch. I find it incredible that anyone could look at the story of the Passover, dismiss where G-d redeemed Israel from brutal slavery, infanticide, and oppression; then try to turn it into a story of thievery.The Midrash tells of when the Heavenly Court convened concerning the actions of the Egyptians , a building block containing the body of a Jewish male child was presented as evidence against Egypt and that sealed their punishment decree. Quite obviously the one who wrote this also didn't know about Chanukah.The Hellenic Jews were ones that had adopted Greek culture including worship of their gods.It wasn't some liberal movement.They had sided with the Greeks to destroy the belief in the One True G-d.The Greeks were far from having any tolerance for other religions,especially Judaism.The Greeks had even forced the sacrifice of pigs to their gods in the Holy Temple. Read the book of Hannah. Purim is a story of redemption and return.The celebration is for an end to the Exile,not over killing, not just because Haman was executed. Asheverus wore the robes of the High Priest at the feast in the beginning of the story as an insult and taunt because he thought the seventy year exile date had passed and the Jews were still not home, but the date he thought was it was wrong. Quite obvious also is the fact the decree was still in effect and going to be carried out. That is why the second decree the Jews could arm themselves was made. The author of this article even uses a reference to eye for an eye when in Jewish law that refers to monetary payment for a wrong, not a literal eye for an eye.He or she also uses the Midrash as a source, when the Midrash is stories and parables with a moral and not to be construed as fact or in any way binding to belief. As far as the claim about loving your neighbor, Judaism demands you do charity.It doesn't differentiate any man from being on the receiving end. If a man comes to you and says he is starving, you are obligated to feed him. To say no is totally forbidden.You are commanded to give 10% of your income to charity, but not more than 20% so you,yourself,don't become poverty stricken and need charity.Here are a few basic Judaic beliefs: Talmud: Tosefta,Saheddrin 13:The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come. Avos4:3:Do not despise any man Baba Kama 38a: Even a gentile that studies Torah is equal to a High Priest. Zohar: Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Hardly the violent and loveless faith the author depicts.He/she even tries to equate the death of a terrorist leader with a biblical equation to Haman. His claim of wanton drunkenness is completely off base. A person is obligated to become inebriated on Purim until he doesn't know the difference between "cursed is Haman" and "blessed is Mordechai." (Talmud Megillah 7b) We all wonder: Why does God permit, nay encourage, us to get drunk on Purim? It seems to be such an unholy, un-Jewish practice. Is all the fun and frolic with alcohol just Judaism's version of a college frat party?!Of course, the answer is a resounding "No." In fact, the Jews' realization in the days of Mordechai was on an even higher level. For while the Sinai experience was characterized by fear and awe, the Purim experience was one of drawing close to God through love. "Kimu v'Kiblu," the Megillah tells us: the Jews in the days of Mordechai accepted God's word in a way they had never before. On Purim, when we become drunk, we are saying that ultimately we don't even have enough faculties to know the difference between one who is cursed and who is blessed. We try to do what seems correct, but we realize that it is only God who knows what is right for us. And only He controls the world.If we can keep this in mind while in an inebriated state, and if we sing songs stressing these ideas at our Purim feast, we can hopefully carry this higher level of trust and belief in God on into all aspects of our lives. In closing reply to this, I'd like to add a little insight on how the finger of G-d is still working in this world. "If it pleases the king let the Jews of shushan be permitted to act tomorrow also as they did today and let Haman?s ten sons be impaled on the stake." But weren't the sons already dead? Weren't they hung already? Could be that "the king" here refers to The King, and that tomorrow = future tomorrow, not necessarily the day after today. Haman had 10 sons and a daughter (remember her? She committed suicide after realizing she dumped trash all over her father thinking it was Mordechai). In 1946, the Jewish year 5707, the Nuremberg Trials took place. Ten Nazi's were hung, and Goring, another Nazi known to have a 'thing' for women's clothes, committed suicide. In every correct megillah written, the ten sons of Haman are written the same way, in a column with three letters that are smaller than the rest. If I recall correctly, it's the Taf in Parshandata, the Shin in Parmashta and the Zain in Visata. Taf Shin Zain = 707. If you look at the Vav on the last name, Vasata, it's larger than the rest of the letters. The sixth time 707 came around was 5707. (First 707, then 1707, 2707, 3707, 4707, 5707). On October 16, 1946, as foreshadowed in the names of Haman's ten sons, ten Nazi leaders were hanged as war criminals. ... out of nowhere, with the rope around his neck, Julius Schtreicher - editor of Der Sturmer, the Nazi propaganda newspaper - shouted out with flaming hatred in his eyes, just as the trap door opened, 'Purimfest 1946'!" There were 11 Nazis slated to be killed that day. Only 10 were because one, Herman Goring committed suicide in his cell. ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] 'Facts of Purim' - VERY interesting! Date: 3/9/2009 8:02:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: VERY interesting article...Purim Sameach! Hanoch Samson Blinded has posted a new item, 'Facts of Purim' Like every Jewish historic festival, Purim is a rather blood-thirsty celebration. On Pesach, God made himself known to Israelites specifically by wholesale killing of the Egyptians (Exodus 7:5, 14:17). Jews also were less than politically correct then: the only time the Torah applies the word neighbor to our opponents is when we borrowed jewelry from the Egyptians without meaning to give it back. On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to introduce some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian into Roman protectorate. On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged nine months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther?s people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8), and Mordechai was appointed in his stead. It is unthinkable, in that order of events, for the planned massacre against Jews to be carried out. In the Middle Eastern customs, an edict not actively lobbied for was doomed to oblivion, and with Haman?s demise Jews were safe despite the fact that the Artaxerxes? murderous edict could not be formally rescinded. The celebration marks Jews killing ?those who hated them? (9:1). It was not ?an eye for an eye? retaliation or even the rabbinical, ?That who comes to slay you, slay him first? because the midrash relates that the haters? children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek?s King Agag whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman debacle befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced ?the mercy of fools? ? after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who would have had no mercy upon us. The Haman?s example follows the Torah?s exterminatory logic. God commanded Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish to leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to remain, the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will hate and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai?s leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters alive ? and killed them. Leaving the haters? children would have just perpetuated the violence as the children grow and take revenge. Jews prevailed over the enemies on the 13th of the month of Adar (9:1). On the 14th, Jews rested (9:18) and killed choice enemies (v.14). When we celebrate Purim on the 14th, it is about killing the enemies rather than saving ourselves. This may sound odd for those taught the nonsense that Judaism is love. Sorry, then. Jews are only commanded to love their law-observant neighbors; enemies and transgressors must be hated and done away with. Jews are normal, and like other people we are entitled to hate and kill our enemies; we killed Hamas? Ahmed Yasin together with his family just as 2,500 years we hanged Haman with his sons. And in case you were told there is no Amalek today, Rashi is adamant in equating Amalek with Germans, and Israeli Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi implied clearly that Arabs are Amalek. If you want consolation, take it in the fact that European settlers conquered America in precisely the biblical manner, exterminated the natives, and created a nice liberal country in the occupied territories. Two hundred years from now, I?d love to be sorry for what we were doing to the natives in the Land of Israel when conquering it. On Purim, Jews must become drunk to the extent of not differentiating between blessing Mordechai and cursing Haman. In vino veritas. Drunken people forget the accretions of political correctness and return to the basic truth: Mordechai's blessing consists in Haman being cursed; his death is our reward.. Lest Jews think that the Purim course of action is antiquated, the characters? names are suggestive: Mordechai from Marduk, and Esther from Astarte. The saviors were two assimilated Jews whose names even were pagan. One was a court Jew, another ? a Jewish leader eager to become court Jew. In the critical times, they have changed. You can leave a comment at _http://samsonblinded..org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm_ (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/facts-of-purim.htm) _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/bd0b6e0a/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 22:25:11 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <665347.2388.qm@web58501.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Tracy and Lynn, ? My prayers are with you and your family.? My mother-in-law passed away in December and I miss her so much.? I am so thankful for the time I had with her and the memories that she left behind.? ? Margie --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:49 PM Shalom All, ? My beloved wife, Lynn,?has diligently and tirelessly?cared for her mother, Gena Dumas,?for the past three years.?Her mother?passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. ? In His Love, ? Tracy _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/84338699/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 22:28:42 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:28:42 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All] Message-ID: Baruch Dayin Emet. May Hashem ease your family's grief. Hezakiah **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/7a7fe872/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Tue Mar 10 22:38:40 2009 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:38:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A300F7BAE364FACA3BA6DD5C05C3663@sherryPC> Shalom Tracy, My heart goes out to your precious Lynn and you.We cared for Dave's Mom for several years before losing her over a year ago.She was almost 80.We still take care of my Mom(93).I have been comforted by the Biblical thought of death being like a state of sleep.You both are in my prayers. Love and blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 03/10/09 19:51:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/eca52568/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Mar 10 22:55:06 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:55:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <097e01c9a1fd$2c581e20$85085a60$@com> Hi Tracy and Lyn, Please accept our deepest sympathies in the loss of your Beloved Mother. It sounds like she was blessed to have such a loving family with her when she passed. Love, Patty & Dave From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090310/712adc8b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 10 23:33:37 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:33:37 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <031120090433.18193.49B73F20000BFDB20000471122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj:[Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date:3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:mhyde7 at tds.net To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/cadf31b2/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Mar 11 03:09:27 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:09:27 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian] Message-ID: <49B771B7.8030300@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/a4aa4486/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:33:37 +0000 Size: 26284 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/a4aa4486/attachment.eml From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 06:45:41 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:45:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Message-ID: Hi John. Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel is also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want an end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing more than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group of Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called themselves the Jewish Reich. That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. Shalom,Chizkiyahu ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/11/2009 12:33:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _carlson_john at bellsouth.net_ (mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/b2b6d50c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 07:27:01 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:27:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370903110527h7f4af1a7lc612dc76d8c68219@mail.gmail.com> Dear Tracy, I am so sorry for Lynn, you and the rest of the family...it is SO hard losing a mother, I wish I knew the magic words that could make the pain for you, go away. Next week is the 9th Yartzeit (Anniversary of her death) of my own mother (Of Blessed Memory). What you are experiencing now is all too real for me personally, still; after all these years. May Lynn and the entire family be comforted by HaShem among the mourners for Tzion & Yerushalayim. B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), * Hanoch * On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom All, > > My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her mother, > Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away today at age > 80. Your prayers are appreciated. > > In His Love, > > Tracy > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/c3134c1e/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Mar 11 07:28:27 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:28:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011001c9a244$e2c99f70$0400a8c0@marvin> Hezakiak, Thanks for taking the time. I better understand what you were saying. Now if we can get the Jihadist and every other Jew hating muslim to start practicing a few more of them(noahide laws). _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:07 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/af3f6385/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 07:53:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:53:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Rav Lazer Brody - 'Midnight Hour' - Motown Breslov Purim Style! Message-ID: <855590370903110553x5f8d92cfhd87b009b4e6b684f@mail.gmail.com> Chaverim Yikarim, Below is a great Purim Song done by Rav Lazer Brody...it helps if you can remember who Wilson Pickett is...LOL In case you're wondering, no, it wasn't the mention of dancing ,"..up in the Bronx.." that caused me to enjoy it!!! :-) Once again, Purim Sameach - it's still Purim in Yerushalayim, our holy, ETERNAL capital, where my daughters are rollicking in the Purim simcha (joy). Ayala is dressed as a vampire (or devil of some sort). Kyra, and three of her friends are dressed as ORANGE Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles....Orange being the "Gush Katif Movement" color.....even in joy, there is still a degree of seriousness.... May we all celebrate next Purim, together in Israel. The Purim Seuda (festive meal) will be in my house - bring your appetites!! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel), * Hanoch* Wednesday, 11 March 2009 Midnight Hour: Breslev Motown Purim by Rav Lazer Brody *In loving memory of my father, Yaacov ben Yitzchak, who loved a l'chaim and a good laugh. It's ever so suitable that his yahrtzeit is on Shushan Purim, today. This one's for you, Pop...* Breslevers have a good time all year long. Many of us drink alcoholic beverages only twice a year, and then it's only the mitzva wine of Purim and Pesach. Here's what happens when Menachem Herman and I get together; when we're sober, we turn Sweet Home Alabama into Sweet Home Jerusalem. After a couple glasses of vintage Golan wine, Wilson Pickett becomes a Breslever Chassid, and the Midnight Hour becomes a song about *hitbodedut*, personal prayer with Hashem in the wee hours. I hope you have as much fun watching this as we did recording it. May your Purim smile last all year long, amen! Click here: YouTube - Midnight Hour, Breslever-Purim Style -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/1204a34c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 08:10:04 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:10:04 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! Message-ID: <855590370903110610r588fcfe6la2fd65cf24fd9388@mail.gmail.com> [image: Is the Starbucks woman Queen Esther] Is the Starbucks woman Queen Esther Israel News Photo: (logo) Egyptian Cleric: Boycott Starbucks Because Queen Esther in Logo Adar 14, 5769, 10 March 09 09:09 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) An Egyptian Muslim cleric has called on the Muslim and Arab world to boycott Starbucks because he claims thefemale character depicted in the company?s logo is actually Queen Esther, the heroine in the story of Purim. The logo shows a woman with a crown, topped by a five-pointed star on her head. Although there is no apparent reference to anything Jewish in the portrayal, cleric Safwat Higazi recently declared on Egyptian television, ?The girl in the Starbucks logo is Queen Esther." The video of Higazi's statement was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI ). ?Do you know who Queen Esther was and what the crown on her head means?" Higazi asked. "This is the crown of the Persian kingdom. This queen is the queen of the Jews. She is mentioned in the Torah, in the Book of Esther. The girl you see is Esther, the queen of the Jews in Persia." He pointed out that Starbucks coffee shops are located in Mecca, Islam?s holiest city, as well as in Cairo. ?You should boycott this company,? he declared. ?It is not enough to avoid entering this coffee shop. It is not enough to refrain from drinking this coffee. You must urge people never to go there.? The cleric explained that the crown on the logo woman?s head is the crown of the Kingdom of Xerxes, who he said "gave an order that the seven most beautiful girls in the kingdom be brought to him. So they held contests and auditions, and selected the seven most beautiful virgins, one of whom was the Jewish Esther, whose uncle, Mordechai ? or actually, it was her cousin?s brother ? was a villain." "It was Mordechai who hatched this plot. Esther was one of the seven girls brought before King Xerxes in the palace. When Esther, who was very beautiful, was shown to King Xerxes, she captured his heart, and he chose her to be his queen. He placed a crown on her head, and the crown you see here [in the Starbucks logo] is the crown of the kingdom of Xerxes.? "We Want Starbucks To Be Shut Down Throughout The Arab And Islamic World... Can you believe that in Mecca, Al-Madina, Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait, and all over the Islamic world there hangs the picture of beautiful Queen Esther, with a crown on her head, and we buy her products?? Higazi demanded. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/613cbd49/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 08:13:18 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:13:18 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Purim 5769 - by Rav Nachman Kahane Message-ID: <855590370903110613o314d4fd8j54c1478e108fe558@mail.gmail.com> Below is a fascinating insight by Rav Nachman Kahane - I'm not sure if the Hebrew fonts will come across on your post; if not - sorry in advance. * Hanoch * ---------- Forwarded message ---------- BS"D Parashat Ki Tisa and Purim 5769 While in the post office yesterday, the post master asked me- " ??? ?? ????" (Rabbi what will be?)" I answered to the effect that HaShem does not favor "open accounts", so He structures nature with the characteristic of inevitability to "close circles". The four seasons of nature; the cycle of the holidays; birth, death, and rebirth at techi?at hamaytim (resurrection of the dead); and also Mordechai, a descendant of King Shaul, who killed Haman, thereby closing the historical circle opened by King Shaul when he did not kill Agag, King of Amalek. So too, our world began by HaShem creating "tohu va?vohu" - chaos and emptiness - from which came forth the order we now find in the world. And the world, as we know it today, will go full circle and return to chaos and emptiness from which will emerge a future perfect world. That is what I told our post master without elaboration, which I will now do. Two questions: 1- HaShem has commanded us to destroy all remnants of the nation called Amalek. Men, women, children down to the last Volkswagen. However, we find an alarming fact; that the great protector of Amalek is HaShem Himself! For at the end of parashat Be?shalach, Moshe sends Yehoshua bin Nun to lead an army against Amalek, and the pasuk (Shemot 17:13) says: ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? And Yehoshua weakened Amalek and the nation by the sword Rashi comments that HaShem commanded Yehoshua to kill all the strong warriors of Amalek - which he did; but to let the weaker ones live! Why does HaShem protect those who He commands the Jewish nation to destroy? 2- The second verse of the "Aleiynu" prayer recited three times a day, describes the new world when the gentiles will leave their avoda zara (idolatry) and bow down before the truth of HaShem. But, as beautiful as this concept is, it is to the same degree naive and wishful thinking in view of how the world and its inhabitants have evolved. Who will bring about the downfall of the failed gods of the nations? Will it be the Jewish nation, because we are so beloved and cherished by Christianity, Islam and the other 99% of the world? Will it be the State of Israel, which is upheld today in intellectual associations, as well as in political and religious spheres, as the ultimate virtuous society under the teachings of the Torah? I suggest: HaShem has protected and guaranteed the survival of Amalek, because the new world of HaShem will be brought about not by the Jewish nation, nor the political State of Israel, nor the noble, righteous teachings of the Torah. But by Amalek! Two weeks ago, I pointed out how chazal viewed the episode of the Megila as "coming attractions" of what the future holds for us and for the gentile world. Following is the schematic breakdown of the episode of Purim: 1- An Amalek component in the guise of Haman and his family. 2- A potentially, devastating decree of total annihilation against the Jewish nation which draws them to return to Hashem. 3- An amazing, unpredictable twist to the story. 4- A full fledged military campaign waged by the Jewish people against their potential murderers. 5- Recognition by many of the citizens of the 127 lands under the rule of King Achashverosh of the uniqueness of Am Yisrael, and their desire to join us, as the verse states (Esther 8:17): ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ????? And many of the indigenous peoples converted (Rashi) because the fear of Jews fell upon them. This is the chaotic "tohu ve?vohu" situation which the world will be facing in the not distant future. Amalek, in Iran (formerly Persia), will contrive and mastermind the most diabolical, lethal and deadly plan for the destruction of all Jews.. They will orchestrate millions of other Amalekites dispersed today among the majority of nations in the "final solution". They will be given free reign to do so by the Christian world, which will either look away or justify through the sophistry of their hypocritical dialectics the eradication of the Jewish State and Jews the world over. Haman is Iran and the concordant Achashverosh is the United Nations, including the "democratic" nations of the world. The Jewish people will be gripped in fright. The only alternative available at that dark hour will be to return to Eretz Yisrael, where the Jewish people will do two things: cry out in teshuva to HaShem and prepare militarily to defend ourselves. Then the most astonishing miracles will occur. Tzahal will vanquish our enemies in the most unexpected, inconceivable manner. The hand of God will be visible to all mankind, which will abandon their idolatrous beliefs and seek to join the Jewish nation. We will refuse to convert such an enormous number of people, and so our rabbis will direct the gentiles of the world in the practice of the essential Seven Noachide commandments. The above assessment of future history will, by necessity, require basic changes in our personal and national lives just prior to the great conflagration. Many gentiles from the former Soviet union living today in Eretz Yisrael, will leave in the face of the pending catastrophe. So too will many Jews who will not believe that HaShem will save His people (as I have witnessed in the three week period prior to the Six Day War). The army will be much more involved in the daily governing of the country. And from out of the army will appear a magnificent personality, steeped in Torah and belief in HaShem, who will lead the nation in those dark days. He will be the long awaited Machiach, who the RaMBaM predicts will lead us in military victory, restore our classic way of Torah life built around the Bet Hamikdash, the Davidic dynastry and Halacha. These things will have to happen eventually, for that is the heart of Judaism. All the indicators - economic, political, religious, social etc.., - show that the world is teetering between poverty, Islamic suppression, Western World ineffectiveness, moral bankruptcy, nuclear war and rejection of traditional ideals and values. Except for one time tested tradition: To blame the Jews for all the world?s ills. It is Purim again. And with each passing Purim, the irreversible prophetic words of our rabbis (Tractate Yuma 29a) draw closer to fulfillment. That the episode of Esther, as the schematic blue print of the future, will signal the end of miracles, for at that time the Jewish people will no longer be in need of HaShem?s super natural intervention in this world. Purim Samayach Nachman Kahana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/dfdae15f/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Mar 11 08:57:10 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:57:10 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! In-Reply-To: <855590370903110610r588fcfe6la2fd65cf24fd9388@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903110610r588fcfe6la2fd65cf24fd9388@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shalom Hanoch and All, Right, you could not make this stuff up! This sounds like an admission of fear - fear at the potential power within one Jewish girl who humbled herself and pleaded HaShem on behalf of her people. They would not like to remember the way HaShem acted on her and Mordechai's behalf - they must obliterate even an imagined reference to her! Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:10 AM Subject: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! Is the Starbucks woman Queen Esther Israel News Photo: (logo) Egyptian Cleric: Boycott Starbucks Because Queen Esther in Logo Adar 14, 5769, 10 March 09 09:09by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) An Egyptian Muslim cleric has called on the Muslim and Arab world to boycott Starbucks because he claims thefemale character depicted in the company?s logo is actually Queen Esther, the heroine in the story of Purim. The logo shows a woman with a crown, topped by a five-pointed star on her head. Although there is no apparent reference to anything Jewish in the portrayal, cleric Safwat Higazi recently declared on Egyptian television, ?The girl in the Starbucks logo is Queen Esther." The video of Higazi's statement was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI). ?Do you know who Queen Esther was and what the crown on her head means?" Higazi asked. "This is the crown of the Persian kingdom. This queen is the queen of the Jews. She is mentioned in the Torah, in the Book of Esther. The girl you see is Esther, the queen of the Jews in Persia." He pointed out that Starbucks coffee shops are located in Mecca, Islam?s holiest city, as well as in Cairo. ?You should boycott this company,? he declared. ?It is not enough to avoid entering this coffee shop. It is not enough to refrain from drinking this coffee. You must urge people never to go there.? The cleric explained that the crown on the logo woman?s head is the crown of the Kingdom of Xerxes, who he said "gave an order that the seven most beautiful girls in the kingdom be brought to him. So they held contests and auditions, and selected the seven most beautiful virgins, one of whom was the Jewish Esther, whose uncle, Mordechai ? or actually, it was her cousin?s brother ? was a villain." "It was Mordechai who hatched this plot. Esther was one of the seven girls brought before King Xerxes in the palace. When Esther, who was very beautiful, was shown to King Xerxes, she captured his heart, and he chose her to be his queen. He placed a crown on her head, and the crown you see here [in the Starbucks logo] is the crown of the kingdom of Xerxes.? "We Want Starbucks To Be Shut Down Throughout The Arab And Islamic World... Can you believe that in Mecca, Al-Madina, Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait, and all over the Islamic world there hangs the picture of beautiful Queen Esther, with a crown on her head, and we buy her products?? Higazi demanded. www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/fdd9f89b/attachment.html From rebuntyn at aol.com Wed Mar 11 09:03:33 2009 From: rebuntyn at aol.com (rebuntyn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:03:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB70694C6A5CC8-A24-3908@WEBMAIL-MY15.sysops.aol.com> Tracy, so sorry to hear of the loss of a family parent. It's a difficult and sobering experience we all face at some point. Our prayers go with you. Ralph & Becky -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 9:49 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Shalom All, ? My beloved wife, Lynn,?has diligently and tirelessly?cared for her mother, Gena Dumas,?for the past three years.?Her mother?passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. ? In His Love, ? Tracy _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/deccbcb6/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 09:21:33 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:21:33 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! Message-ID: Absolutely incredible LOLOL. It reminds me of the joke about communication. Israeli archeologists had discovered what appeared to be ancient phone lines buried and announced that ancient Israel may have had a primitive communication system. Not be outdone,the Pallies dug,found nothing and announced undeniable proof their ancient ancestors had cell phones. Back to the discussion though; I think this might top the Queen Esther thing. It couldn't get any more ridiculous than this. By ZEINA KARAM Associated Press Writer BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - The latest conflict simmering between Lebanon and Israel is all about food: Lebanese businessmen accusing Israel of stealing traditional Middle Eastern dishes like hummus. Fadi Abboud, president of the Lebanese Industrialists Association, said Tuesday his group plans to sue Israel to stop it from marketing hummus and other regional dishes as Israeli. "It is not enough they (Israelis) are stealing our land. They are also stealing our civilization and our cuisine," said Abboud. He said his group also seeks to claim the eggplant spread baba ghannouj and tabbouleh, a salad made of chopped parsley and tomatoes, as Lebanon's own. Hummus _ made from mashed chickpeas, sesame paste, olive oil, lemon juice, salt and garlic _ has been eaten in the Middle East for centuries. Its exact origin is unknown, though it's generally seen as an Arab dish. But it is also immensely popular in Israel _ served in everyday meals and at many restaurants _ and its popularity is growing around the globe. While Abboud cites a history of complaints by Lebanese businessmen about Israel exporting and marketing Lebanese dishes as Israeli, it's not clear where the Lebanese might file suit since the two countries are officially at war. Israel's Food Industries Association and the Foreign Ministry both declined comment. Abboud compares his suit to the one over feta cheese in which a European Union court ruled in 2002 the cheese must be made with Greek sheep and goats milk to bear the name feta. That ruling is only valid for products sold in the EU. Abboud acknowledged an uphill battle, particularly over hummus _ which Palestinians also claim as their own. ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! Date: 3/11/2009 9:10:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Is the Starbucks woman Queen Esther Israel News Photo: (logo) Egyptian Cleric: Boycott Starbucks Because Queen Esther in Logo Adar 14, 5769, 10 March 09 09:09 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) An Egyptian Muslim cleric has called on the Muslim and Arab world to boycott Starbucks because he claims thefemale character depicted in the company?s logo is actually Queen Esther, the heroine in the story of Purim. The logo shows a woman with a crown, topped by a five-pointed star on her head. Although there is no apparent reference to anything Jewish in the portrayal, cleric Safwat Higazi recently declared on Egyptian television, ?The girl in the Starbucks logo is Queen Esther." The video of Higazi's statement was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (_MEMRI_ (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2048.htm) ). ?Do you know who Queen Esther was and what the crown on her head means?" Higazi asked. "This is the crown of the Persian kingdom. This queen is the queen of the Jews. She is mentioned in the Torah, in the Book of Esther. The girl you see is Esther, the queen of the Jews in Persia." He pointed out that Starbucks coffee shops are located in Mecca, Islam?s holiest city, as well as in Cairo. ?You should boycott this company,? he declared. ?It is not enough to avoid entering this coffee shop. It is not enough to refrain from drinking this coffee. You must urge people never to go there.? The cleric explained that the crown on the logo woman?s head is the crown of the Kingdom of Xerxes, who he said "gave an order that the seven most beautiful girls in the kingdom be brought to him. So they held contests and auditions, and selected the seven most beautiful virgins, one of whom was the Jewish Esther, whose uncle, Mordechai ? or actually, it was her cousin?s brother ? was a villain." "It was Mordechai who hatched this plot. Esther was one of the seven girls brought before King Xerxes in the palace. When Esther, who was very beautiful, was shown to King Xerxes, she captured his heart, and he chose her to be his queen. He placed a crown on her head, and the crown you see here [in the Starbucks logo] is the crown of the kingdom of Xerxes.? "We Want Starbucks To Be Shut Down Throughout The Arab And Islamic World... Can you believe that in Mecca, Al-Madina, Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait, and all over the Islamic world there hangs the picture of beautiful Queen Esther, with a crown on her head, and we buy her products?? Higazi demanded. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - _sub.israelnn.com_ (http://sub.israelnn.com/) _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/60e147c4/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 11 10:47:53 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <319155.91421.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Done and will continue. --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:49 PM Shalom All, ? My beloved wife, Lynn,?has diligently and tirelessly?cared for her mother, Gena Dumas,?for the past three years.?Her mother?passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. ? In His Love, ? Tracy _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/9961c55a/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 11 12:38:59 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Purim 5769 - by Rav Nachman Kahane In-Reply-To: <855590370903110613o314d4fd8j54c1478e108fe558@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <609013.18028.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom All, ? Just one point I would like to make about Rav Nachman Kahane insights. Many followers of Yeshua as Messiah (labeled by the world as Christians) would sadly agree that his insights are right on. They know that Scriptures tell us that ALL nations will stand against Israel in the last days. It would be unwise to "lump" all followers of Yeshua as the enemy and turning their heads to allow what is about to happen in the same manner as to "lump" all Jews as Jews. True followers of Yeshua listen to HaShems words, his teachings, the prophets writings and will never forsake Israel even though the nation in which they live will. Will their lone voice be overshadowed? Yes! Many realize that they will lose their life for their stance. We are not one anothers enemies. This is a deeper spirtual warfare! ? HaShem is all ready moving powerfully in restoring Torah to "Christians" and not just the Noach Laws but all of Torah. This is what the New Testament taught. ? Love, Susie --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] Purim 5769 - by Rav Nachman Kahane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 6:13 AM Below is a fascinating insight by Rav Nachman Kahane - I'm not sure if the Hebrew fonts will come across on your post; if not - sorry in advance. ??????????????????? Hanoch ? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- BS"D Parashat Ki Tisa and Purim 5769 While in the post office yesterday, the post master asked me- " ??? ?? ????" (Rabbi what will be?)" I answered to the effect that HaShem does not favor "open accounts", so He structures nature with the characteristic of inevitability to "close circles". The four seasons of nature; the cycle of the holidays; birth, death, and rebirth at techi?at hamaytim (resurrection of the dead); and also Mordechai, a descendant of King Shaul, who killed Haman, thereby closing the historical circle opened by King Shaul when he did not kill Agag, King of Amalek. So too, our world began by HaShem creating "tohu va?vohu" - chaos and emptiness - from which came forth the order we now find in the world. And the world, as we know it today, will go full circle and return to chaos and emptiness from which will emerge a future perfect world. That is what I told our post master without elaboration, which I will now do. Two questions: 1- HaShem has commanded us to destroy all remnants of the nation called Amalek. Men, women, children down to the last Volkswagen. However, we find an alarming fact; that the great protector of Amalek is HaShem Himself! For at the end of parashat Be?shalach, Moshe sends Yehoshua bin Nun to lead an army against Amalek, and the pasuk (Shemot 17:13) says: ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? And Yehoshua weakened Amalek and the nation by the sword Rashi comments that HaShem commanded Yehoshua to kill all the strong warriors of Amalek - which he did; but to let the weaker ones live! Why does HaShem protect those who He commands the Jewish nation to destroy? 2- The second verse of the "Aleiynu" prayer recited three times a day, describes the new world when the gentiles will leave their avoda zara (idolatry) and bow down before the truth of HaShem. But, as beautiful as this concept is, it is to the same degree naive and wishful thinking in view of how the world and its inhabitants have evolved. Who will bring about the downfall of the failed gods of the nations? Will it be the Jewish nation, because we are so beloved and cherished by Christianity, Islam and the other 99% of the world? Will it be the State of Israel, which is upheld today in intellectual associations, as well as in political and religious spheres, as the ultimate virtuous society under the teachings of the Torah? I suggest: HaShem has protected and guaranteed the survival of Amalek, because the new world of HaShem will be brought about not by the Jewish nation, nor the political State of Israel, nor the noble, righteous teachings of the Torah. But by Amalek! Two weeks ago, I pointed out how chazal viewed the episode of the Megila as "coming attractions" of what the future holds for us and for the gentile world. Following is the schematic breakdown of the episode of Purim: 1- An Amalek component in the guise of Haman and his family. 2- A potentially, devastating decree of total annihilation against the Jewish nation which draws them to return to Hashem. 3- An amazing, unpredictable twist to the story. 4- A full fledged military campaign waged by the Jewish people against their potential murderers. 5- Recognition by many of the citizens of the 127 lands under the rule of King Achashverosh of the uniqueness of Am Yisrael, and their desire to join us, as the verse states (Esther 8:17): ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ????? And many of the indigenous peoples converted (Rashi) because the fear of Jews fell upon them. This is the chaotic "tohu ve?vohu" situation which the world will be facing in the not distant future. Amalek, in Iran (formerly Persia), will contrive and mastermind the most diabolical, lethal and deadly plan for the destruction of all Jews.. They will orchestrate millions of other Amalekites dispersed today among the majority of nations in the "final solution". They will be given free reign to do so by the Christian world, which will either look away or justify through the sophistry of their hypocritical dialectics the eradication of the Jewish State and Jews the world over. Haman is Iran and the concordant Achashverosh is the United Nations, including the "democratic" nations of the world. The Jewish people will be gripped in fright. The only alternative available at that dark hour will be to return to Eretz Yisrael, where the Jewish people will do two things: cry out in teshuva to HaShem and prepare militarily to defend ourselves. Then the most astonishing miracles will occur. Tzahal will vanquish our enemies in the most unexpected, inconceivable manner. The hand of God will be visible to all mankind, which will abandon their idolatrous beliefs and seek to join the Jewish nation. We will refuse to convert such an enormous number of people, and so our rabbis will direct the gentiles of the world in the practice of the essential Seven Noachide commandments. The above assessment of future history will, by necessity, require basic changes in our personal and national lives just prior to the great conflagration. Many gentiles from the former Soviet union living today in Eretz Yisrael, will leave in the face of the pending catastrophe. So too will many Jews who will not believe that HaShem will save His people (as I have witnessed in the three week period prior to the Six Day War). The army will be much more involved in the daily governing of the country. And from out of the army will appear a magnificent personality, steeped in Torah and belief in HaShem, who will lead the nation in those dark days. He will be the long awaited Machiach, who the RaMBaM predicts will lead us in military victory, restore our classic way of Torah life built around the Bet Hamikdash, the Davidic dynastry and Halacha. These things will have to happen eventually, for that is the heart of Judaism. All the indicators - economic, political, religious, social etc.., - show that the world is teetering between poverty, Islamic suppression, Western World ineffectiveness, moral bankruptcy, nuclear war and rejection of traditional ideals and values. Except for one time tested tradition: To blame the Jews for all the world?s ills. It is Purim again. And with each passing Purim, the irreversible prophetic words of our rabbis (Tractate Yuma 29a) draw closer to fulfillment. That the episode of Esther, as the schematic blue print of the future, will signal the end of miracles, for at that time the Jewish people will no longer be in need of HaShem?s super natural intervention in this world. Purim Samayach Nachman Kahana_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/100a8d85/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Mar 11 13:47:11 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:47:11 -0500 Subject: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian In-Reply-To: <031120090433.18193.49B73F20000BFDB20000471122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <031120090433.18193.49B73F20000BFDB20000471122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <0CA9C515064741ACBDF4288C97720F18@bettylaptop> John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60's and early 70's are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a 'Lech l'cha' from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a 'secular society', but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. "ONCE OR TWICE" in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard 'Lech l'cha' __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom's now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are." Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn't matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say. "Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!" And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your 'Lech l'cha!!!!' Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/371c35c3/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 11 13:59:06 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:59:06 +0000 Subject: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian In-Reply-To: <0CA9C515064741ACBDF4288C97720F18@bettylaptop> References: <031120090433.18193.49B73F20000BFDB20000471122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <0CA9C515064741ACBDF4288C97720F18@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <031120091859.18719.49B809F5000CF64D0000491F22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thank you Betty, We are not discouraged. Just waiting for HaShem to open the door. Love and blessings to you as well. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60?s and early 70?s are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a ?Lech l?cha? from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a ?secular society?, but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. ?ONCE OR TWICE? in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard ?Lech l?cha? __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom?s now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are?? Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn?t matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say? ?Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!? And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your ?Lech l?cha!!!!? Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj:[Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date:3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:mhyde7 at tds.net To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/183efea6/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Mar 11 14:38:09 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:38:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35A3FBDE-9D61-48C9-A44D-5D60AEA29388@earthlink.net> Hey Hez! I like the sound of that! It is surely true that a "vast number" in Israel are completely secular but I can not agree in any way that those who are moving there now will have a secular existence--far from it. I have traveled to Israel an average of five or six times a year since 1990 and have been exposed to almost every aspect of the society, from the religious/ Rabbinical, the academic, the non-Jewish, and the political, the secular, and even the party crowd through my students. My impressions are the opposite these here expressed and I realize what you say here is one aspect, so this is not meant as a rebuke. I also found myself wondering if you have been back since 1971. It is a totally transformed country. If you have not seen it you would be amazed at the changes...good ones I mean. There is no place on earth with the throbbing, vital, pulsating, "religious," or I would prefer "spiritual" dimension that Israel has. Israel is the people not the State and the people are so wonderfully diverse, and so marvelous Jewish it is astounding. Also, in Israel "secular' can mean many things. After all, the Parashah portions are mentioned on secular TV each Friday afternoon. Everywhere I go in Israel I sense a spirit of Hashem that is manifesting itself in a myriad of ways, even among the so-called secular. There are so many Jews who might say--I am not religious, I don't believe in God--but inside can not leave it behind. It is in their soul and they know it. Half my academic friends are that way. And then there are the wonderful youth of Israel, by the tens of thousands, the millions, who are finally able, after 2000 years of exile to have a "normal" existence, as normal kids--but whose Judaism is so woven into their lives they could no more breath without it. And then the millions of "religious," yes, hopelessly divided, but still providing a solid block of Torah learning the likes of which exist nowhere else on the planet. And I have not even mentioned the hoards of "righteous gentiles," be they Yeshua oriented or not, who truly love the Jewish people and have sacrificed everything to be a part of this grand experiment. There is nothing else going on on the globe of more importance, as I see it, than the building of the people of Israel and their associates, in the Land. Notice--I did not say the State but the people. I suspect you will agree with lots of this and I don't mean it as some absolute challenge as I know where you are coming from here. I just want to encourage people. I close the last lines of my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, with the closing words of the Tanakh, "Let him go up." Those last paragraphs are powerful. The word echoes forth in every generation, HaShem's last word to us and the world! James On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > Hi John. > Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good > amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no > way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I > fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact > many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign > that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise > in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel is > also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. > > Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious > communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast > number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for > other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way > they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious > Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want an > end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing more > than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group of > Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all > religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called > themselves the Jewish Reich. > > That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved > there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills > prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to > be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun > coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. > > Shalom,Chizkiyahu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/3be5f959/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Mar 11 15:29:02 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 06:29:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Message-ID: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/98561998/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:53:20 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:53:20 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> References: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903111353x21fb4b72xa7667565f676525c@mail.gmail.com> Wonderful news Joe!! Baruch HaShem is right, wow...that could have been a disaster. The only thing that would have been better would have been to have directed the cyclone at Indonesia...but, that's a topic for another day :-) * Hanoch * On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:29 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Chaverim, > > Cyclone Hamish is now ex-cyclone Hamish. Baruch HaShem. > > In a remarkable turn of events the massive and dangerous cyclone came right > down the Queensland coast almost to our door step, dawdled for a day or two > , changed its mind, did a 180 degree turn and headed back up the Queensland > coast. > It has now been downgraded to a tropical low. > The weather is still foul from the remnant but the danger has passed. > > Again, I would like to thank you all for your prayers and support. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/59243f9d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 15:53:21 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:53:21 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! Message-ID: Works for me James. I hope to get back there again, but I don't know if I could get Miri to stay if we do.You know my wife,Miriam.In Philly. I never intended to give the impression that Israel is completely secular, fact is from what I've read, 98% of the people observe Pesach in one way or another.We can only keep hoping and supporting those working hard to bring the land back to where it belongs .Anachnu rotzim Moshiach achshav ,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! Date: 3/11/2009 3:38:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _jamesdtabor at earthlink.net_ (mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hey Hez! I like the sound of that! It is surely true that a "vast number" in Israel are completely secular but I can not agree in any way that those who are moving there now will have a secular existence--far from it. I have traveled to Israel an average of five or six times a year since 1990 and have been exposed to almost every aspect of the society, from the religious/Rabbinical, the academic, the non-Jewish, and the political, the secular, and even the party crowd through my students. My impressions are the opposite these here expressed and I realize what you say here is one aspect, so this is not meant as a rebuke. I also found myself wondering if you have been back since 1971. It is a totally transformed country. If you have not seen it you would be amazed at the changes...good ones I mean. There is no place on earth with the throbbing, vital, pulsating, "religious," or I would prefer "spiritual" dimension that Israel has. Israel is the people not the State and the people are so wonderfully diverse, and so marvelous Jewish it is astounding. Also, in Israel "secular' can mean many things. After all, the Parashah portions are mentioned on secular TV each Friday afternoon. Everywhere I go in Israel I sense a spirit of Hashem that is manifesting itself in a myriad of ways, even among the so-called secular. There are so many Jews who might say--I am not religious, I don't believe in God--but inside can not leave it behind. It is in their soul and they know it. Half my academic friends are that way. And then there are the wonderful youth of Israel, by the tens of thousands, the millions, who are finally able, after 2000 years of exile to have a "normal" existence, as normal kids--but whose Judaism is so woven into their lives they could no more breath without it. And then the millions of "religious," yes, hopelessly divided, but still providing a solid block of Torah learning the likes of which exist nowhere else on the planet. And I have not even mentioned the hoards of "righteous gentiles," be they Yeshua oriented or not, who truly love the Jewish people and have sacrificed everything to be a part of this grand experiment. There is nothing else going on on the globe of more importance, as I see it, than the building of the people of Israel and their associates, in the Land. Notice--I did not say the State but the people. I suspect you will agree with lots of this and I don't mean it as some absolute challenge as I know where you are coming from here. I just want to encourage people. I close the last lines of my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, with the closing words of the Tanakh, "Let him go up." Those last paragraphs are powerful. The word echoes forth in every generation, HaShem's last word to us and the world! James On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:45 AM, _Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) wrote: Hi John. Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel is also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want an end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing more than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group of Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called themselves the Jewish Reich. That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. Shalom,Chizkiyahu = _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/270e5cf5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Mar 11 16:17:06 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:17:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49597890-4653-408E-9ADE-F402F55339D5@earthlink.net> Okay, yes, now I know, you are "that" Hezzy...Wonderful to make the connection in my foggy brain as I think you know how much I treasure Miriam of Philly, one of the smartest women I know. James On Mar 11, 2009, at 4:53 PM, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > Works for me James. I hope to get back there again, but I don't know > if I could get Miri to stay if we do.You know my wife,Miriam.In > Philly. I never intended to give the impression that Israel is > completely secular, fact is from what I've read, 98% of the people > observe Pesach in one way or another.We can only keep hoping and > supporting those working hard to bring the land back to where it > belongs .Anachnu rotzim Moshiach achshav ,Hez > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! > Date: 3/11/2009 3:38:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent on: > > Hey Hez! I like the sound of that! > > It is surely true that a "vast number" in Israel are completely > secular but I can not agree in any way that those who are moving > there now will have a secular existence--far from it. I have > traveled to Israel an average of five or six times a year since 1990 > and have been exposed to almost every aspect of the society, from > the religious/Rabbinical, the academic, the non-Jewish, and the > political, the secular, and even the party crowd through my > students. My impressions are the opposite these here expressed and I > realize what you say here is one aspect, so this is not meant as a > rebuke. I also found myself wondering if you have been back since > 1971. It is a totally transformed country. If you have not seen it > you would be amazed at the changes...good ones I mean. > > There is no place on earth with the throbbing, vital, pulsating, > "religious," or I would prefer "spiritual" dimension that Israel > has. Israel is the people not the State and the people are so > wonderfully diverse, and so marvelous Jewish it is astounding. Also, > in Israel "secular' can mean many things. After all, the Parashah > portions are mentioned on secular TV each Friday afternoon. > Everywhere I go in Israel I sense a spirit of Hashem that is > manifesting itself in a myriad of ways, even among the so-called > secular. There are so many Jews who might say--I am not religious, I > don't believe in God--but inside can not leave it behind. It is in > their soul and they know it. Half my academic friends are that way. > And then there are the wonderful youth of Israel, by the tens of > thousands, the millions, who are finally able, after 2000 years of > exile to have a "normal" existence, as normal kids--but whose > Judaism is so woven into their lives they could no more breath > without it. And then the millions of "religious," yes, hopelessly > divided, but still providing a solid block of Torah learning the > likes of which exist nowhere else on the planet. And I have not even > mentioned the hoards of "righteous gentiles," be they Yeshua > oriented or not, who truly love the Jewish people and have > sacrificed everything to be a part of this grand experiment. There > is nothing else going on on the globe of more importance, as I see > it, than the building of the people of Israel and their associates, > in the Land. Notice--I did not say the State but the people. > > I suspect you will agree with lots of this and I don't mean it as > some absolute challenge as I know where you are coming from here. I > just want to encourage people. I close the last lines of my book, > Restoring Abrahamic Faith, with the closing words of the Tanakh, > "Let him go up." Those last paragraphs are powerful. The word echoes > forth in every generation, HaShem's last word to us and the world! > > James > > > On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > >> Hi John. >> Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good >> amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no >> way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I >> fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact >> many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign >> that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise >> in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel >> is also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. >> >> Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious >> communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast >> number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for >> other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way >> they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious >> Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want >> an end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing >> more than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group >> of Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all >> religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called >> themselves the Jewish Reich. >> >> That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved >> there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills >> prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to >> be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun >> coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. >> >> Shalom,Chizkiyahu >> >> > = > > _______________________________________________ > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/7ea4326c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Mar 11 16:21:33 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:21:33 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up!] Message-ID: <49B82B5D.70002@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/3d6424bd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-9.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/3d6424bd/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] You couldn't even make this stuff up! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:10:04 -0700 Size: 10857 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/3d6424bd/attachment.eml From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 11 17:30:05 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <253305.69045.qm@web82503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Joe: ? So good to hear that the cyclone has been downgraded and has not done much damage. Baruch Hashem for his mercy and protection and answered prayers.?Hope the remainder of the storm will be over soon. ? Kind regards, ? Helen --- On Wed, 3/11/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:29 PM Shalom Chaverim, Cyclone Hamish is now ex-cyclone Hamish. Baruch HaShem. In a remarkable turn of events the massive and dangerous cyclone came right down the Queensland coast almost to our door step, dawdled for a day or two , changed its mind, did a 180 degree turn and headed back up the Queensland coast. It has now been downgraded to a tropical low. The weather is still foul from the remnant but the danger has passed. Again, I would like to thank you all for your prayers and support. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/59d679e6/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 18:49:03 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. In-Reply-To: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> References: <49B81F0E.3010504@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Wonderful!!!!! HaShem is so Good!!!! From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH. Shalom Chaverim, Cyclone Hamish is now ex-cyclone Hamish. Baruch HaShem. In a remarkable turn of events the massive and dangerous cyclone came right down the Queensland coast almost to our door step, dawdled for a day or two , changed its mind, did a 180 degree turn and headed back up the Queensland coast. It has now been downgraded to a tropical low. The weather is still foul from the remnant but the danger has passed. Again, I would like to thank you all for your prayers and support. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/3cb7027b/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Mar 11 21:55:25 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:55:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <319155.91421.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <319155.91421.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200903120255.n2C2tJN6026847@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> Lynn and Tracy, May the memory of Mom Dumas always be a blessing to you both and the whole family. May you be comforted among the mourners of Zion. Steve At 08:47 AM 3/11/2009, you wrote: >Done and will continue. > >--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Tracy Osborne wrote: >From: Tracy Osborne >Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:49 PM > >Shalom All, > >My beloved wife, Lynn, has diligently and tirelessly cared for her >mother, Gena Dumas, for the past three years. Her mother passed away >today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. > >In His Love, > >Tracy > > >_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/46f57659/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 11 22:31:19 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:31:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Rav Lazer Brody - 'Midnight Hour' - Motown Breslov PurimStyle! In-Reply-To: <855590370903110553x5f8d92cfhd87b009b4e6b684f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031220090331.8474.49B88207000183C80000211A22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> This is MOST EXCELLENT! I gotta meet this guy. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Chaverim Yikarim, Below is a great Purim Song done by Rav Lazer Brody...it helps if you can remember who Wilson Pickett is...LOL In case you're wondering, no, it wasn't the mention of dancing ,"..up in the Bronx.." that caused me to enjoy it!!! :-) Once again, Purim Sameach - it's still Purim in Yerushalayim, our holy, ETERNAL capital, where my daughters are rollicking in the Purim simcha (joy). Ayala is dressed as a vampire (or devil of some sort). Kyra, and three of her friends are dressed as ORANGE Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles....Orange being the "Gush Katif Movement" color.....even in joy, there is still a degree of seriousness.... May we all celebrate next Purim, together in Israel. The Purim Seuda (festive meal) will be in my house - bring your appetites!! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel), a Hanoch Wednesday, 11 March 2009 Midnight Hour: Breslev Motown Purim by Rav Lazer Brody In loving memory of my father, Yaacov ben Yitzchak, who loved a l'chaim and a good laugh. It's ever so suitable that his yahrtzeit is on Shushan Purim, today. This one's for you, Pop... Breslevers have a good time all year long. Many of us drink alcoholic beverages only twice a year, and then it's only the mitzva wine of Purim and Pesach. Here's what happens when Menachem Herman and I get together; when we're sober, we turn Sweet Home Alabama into Sweet Home Jerusalem. After a couple glasses of vintage Golan wine, Wilson Pickett becomes a Breslever Chassid, and the Midnight Hour becomes a song about hitbodedut, personal prayer with Hashem in the wee hours. I hope you have as much fun watching this as we did recording it. May your Purim smile last all year long, amen! Click here: YouTube - Midnight Hour, Breslever-Purim Style -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/486a67ae/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Mar 11 23:08:53 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Re:Starbucks/ belief systems/ perceptions/ cleansings /confessions In-Reply-To: <49B82B5D.70002@westnet.com.au> References: <49B82B5D.70002@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200903120408.n2C48mbH029347@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> It is sad to see how the centuries-old hatred and belief system of a people distorts their vision and perception. Fine, -- if they do not want to drink Starbucks coffee, they can drink their own brand. It will be safer for American citizens. This type of perception problem is gigantic and pervasive among all peoples and systems of the world. We who have come out, or are on our way out of Christianity / Churchianity also will have to be purged from the principles and the their effects in our conscious and more importantly our unconscious makeups. This takes time. These long-standing belief systems have far-reaching effects that are passed down the generations in ways of which we may not be consciously aware in spite of our best intentions. This is why it says in several places in the Prophets, that we will have to be healed of our "split" hearts (Jer. 32: 39, Psalm 86:11, Ez. 11:19) and cleansed of all our defilements. It is good to keep this in mind when we "confess our sins and the sins of our fathers," (Neh. 1:6). Steve At 02:21 PM 3/11/2009, you wrote: > > >[] > > > > > LONG LIVE QUEEN ESTHER !! > >Is the Starbucks woman Queen Esther? >Israel News Photo: (logo) > > >Egyptian Cleric: Boycott Starbucks Because Queen Esther in Logo > > > >Adar 14, 5769, 10 March 09 09:09 >by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d65f35a5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 29e65d1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 78218 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090311/d65f35a5/attachment.jpg From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 06:39:33 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:39:33 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Tisa: The other side of the Ten Commandments Message-ID: <855590370903120439j610921afl244fe80c2d47fefa@mail.gmail.com> >From Rav Shlomo Riskin, whom I have tremendous admiration for, although I do not agree with him "politicially." * Hanoch* JPost.com? Jewish World? Judaism? *Article* [image: SHLOMO RISKIN] [image: SHLOMO RISKIN] Mar 12, 2009 12:40 Parashat Ki Tisa: The other side of the Ten CommandmentsBy SHLOMO RISKIN Print Subscribe E-mail Toolbar + Recommend: [image: fark] [image: del.icio.us] [image: reddit] [image: newsvine] [image: facebook] What's this? [image: Decrease text size] [image: Decrease text size] [image: Increase text size] [image: Increase text size] Talkbacks for this article: *0* Be the first to rate this | Top Rated Articles [?] It is difficult to imagine the profound disappointment and even anger Moses must have felt on witnessing the Israelites reveling around the golden calf. After all his teachings and exhortations about the one true God who demands fealty and morality - especially sexual morality and the refraining from activities bound up in idolatrous worship - and after all the miracles God had wrought for them in Egypt, at the sea, in the desert and at Sinai, how could the Israelites have so quickly cast away God and His prophet in favor of a golden calf? "And it happened that when he drew near to the encampment and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses burned with anger and cast from his hands the tablets, smashing them under the mountain" (Exodus 32:19). And whether he broke the tablets in a fit of anger, as it would seem from the text, disgusted with his nation and deeming them unworthy to be the bearers of the Decalogue (Rashi), or whether the sight of the debauchery caused Moses to feel faint and drop the tablets (Rashbam), Moses himself appears to be as broken in spirit as were the two stones. After all, a leader must feel - and take responsibility for - the brunt of his nation's transgressions. All these emotions must have been swirling within Moses's mind and heart while the tablets were crashing down. But what follows in the text, after capital punishment for the 3,000 leaders of the idolatry, is a lengthy dialogue between Moses and God. This culminates in a second revelation, this time of the 13 divine attributes and the "normative" definition of God in terms of our human understanding. What does this mean for us today? This was not the first time Moses was disappointed by the Israelites. When he was a prince of Egypt, Moses saw an Egyptian taskmaster beating a Hebrew slave. He looked here and there, and saw "there was not a man" - no one, either among the Egyptians willing to cry out against the injustice, or among the Hebrews ready to wage a rebellion - "and he slew the Egyptian taskmaster and buried him in the sand" (Exodus 2:11). Moses would not have sacrificed his exalted position for one rash act against a single scoundrel. He hoped that with this assassination he would spark a Hebrew rebellion against their overseers. Moses goes out the next day, expecting to see the beginnings of rebellious foment. He finds two Hebrew men fighting - perhaps specifically about whether or not to follow Moses's lead - and when he chastises one for raising a hand against his brother, he is unceremoniously criticized: "Who made you a master and judge over us? Are you about to kill me just as you killed the Egyptian?" (Exodus 2:14). Moses realized that he had risked his life for naught, that the Hebrews were too embroiled in their own petty arguments. Upset with his Hebrew relatives, he decides to give up on social action and devote himself to religious meditation (see Moshe Lichtenstein, *Tzir V'tzon*). To this end, he apparently chose to escape to Midian, a desert community whose sheikh, Jethro, was a seeker after the divine (see Exodus 2:21, Rashi and Exodus 18:11, "Now I know that YHVH is greater than all the gods...") Moses spends 60 years in this Midianite, ashram-like environment of solitary contemplation, culminating in his vision of the burning bush: Moses sees an "angel of the Lord in flame of fire in the midst of a prickly thornbush - and behold, the thornbush is burning, but the thornbush is not consumed" (Exodus 3:1-3). The lowly thornbush seems to symbolize the Hebrew people, containing within itself the fire of the divine but not being consumed by that fire. And God sends Moses back to this developing-yet-prickly nation, urging him to free the Israelite slaves from their Egyptian domination. Apparently God is teaching His greatest prophet that the religious goal must not be divine meditation but rather human action; taking the Israelites out of their enslavement and bringing them to the Promised Land. And God prophesies: "And this shall be the sign that I have sent you: When you take out the nation from Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain [Mount Sinai]" (Exodus 3:12). Now let us fast forward to the aftermath of the sin of the golden calf. Moses pleads with God to forgive the nation. God responds that He dare not dwell in the midst of Israel lest He destroy them at their next transgression. Moses then asks to be shown God's glory, to understand God's ways in this world. God explains that His face - a complete understanding of the divine - cannot be seen by a live human, but His back - a partial glimpse - could and would be revealed. Moses then stands in the cleft of a rock on Mount Sinai, the very place of God's revelation of the Ten Commandments, and receives a second revelation, a second "service to God on this mountain." "...Moses arose early in the morning and ascended to Mount Sinai... taking the two stone tablets in his hand. The Lord descended in a cloud and stood with him there, and he called out with the name Adonai [YHVH]. And Adonai [YHVH] passed before him and he proclaimed: Adonai, Adonai, El [God], compassionate and forgiving, slow to anger and abundant in kindness and truth..." (Exodus 34: 4-7). In this second revelation God is telling Moses two things: first of all, that He is a God of unconditional love, a God who loves before one sins and who loves after one sins (Rashi), a God who freely forgives - even without cause. Hence God will never reject His covenantal nation, will always forgive with alacrity and will always continue to guide Israel on the road to redemption. Secondly, if God is fundamentally a god of love and forgiveness, we must be people of love and forgiveness. From the greatest of prophets to the lowliest hewers of wood and drawers of water, just as He loves freely and is always ready to forgive, so must we love freely and always be ready to forgive. And this second revelation is the mirror image of the first; yes, we must firmly ascribe to the morality of the Ten Commandments, but we must at the same time rest securely in the knowledge that the God of the cosmos loves each and every one of His children, and is always ready to forgive us, no matter what. *The writer is the founder and chancellor of Ohr Torah Stone Colleges and Graduate Programs, and chief rabbi of Efrat.* RATE THIS ARTICLE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/62d1476f/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Mar 12 08:12:12 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:12:12 -0400 Subject: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian In-Reply-To: <0CA9C515064741ACBDF4288C97720F18@bettylaptop> References: <031120090433.18193.49B73F20000BFDB20000471122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <0CA9C515064741ACBDF4288C97720F18@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <00eb01c9a314$29e88ef0$0400a8c0@marvin> Betty, where does this come from? I have seen this before but without a reference. Thanks, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60's and early 70's are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a 'Lech l'cha' from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a 'secular society', but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. "ONCE OR TWICE" in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard 'Lech l'cha' __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom's now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are." Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn't matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say. "Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!" And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your 'Lech l'cha!!!!' Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/05326b43/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 12 10:10:08 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:10:08 EDT Subject: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Message-ID: Here you go Marvin. _http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf_ (http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf) ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/12/2009 9:12:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Betty, where does this come from? I have seen this before but without a reference. Thanks, marvin ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60?s and early 70?s are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a ?Lech l?cha? from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a ?secular society?, but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. ?ONCE OR TWICE? in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard ?Lech l?cha? __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom?s now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are?? Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn?t matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say? ?Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!? And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your ?Lech l?cha!!!!? Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/790fce95/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Thu Mar 12 10:29:18 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:29:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch, thank-you for the reminder - timely word for me References: <49B90A38.54E66.5911@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, Thankyou for the Word this morning. I quote the part which struck me. A good reminder to myself. I am currently seeking to keep my Mom in a safe place, technically Not having the "legal" backing to do so.... and it's easy to lose your cool when dealing with people who should know better. It's like I've "always" known one should stay focused on that unconditional love; but a good reminder now n then certainly helps. Appreciate it. It is a very beautiful Word. Stephen In this second revelation God is telling Moses two things: first of all, that He is a God of unconditional love, a God who loves before one sins and who loves after one sins (Rashi), a God who freely forgives - even without cause. Hence God will never reject His covenantal nation, will always forgive with alacrity and will always continue to guide Israel on the road to redemption. Secondly, if God is fundamentally a god of love and forgiveness, we must be people of love and forgiveness. From the greatest of prophets to the lowliest hewers of wood and drawers of water, just as He loves freely and is always ready to forgive, so must we love freely and always be ready to forgive. From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 10:37:06 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:37:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Tisa: What the world will say Message-ID: <855590370903120837jb832d34vf831e944d6286335@mail.gmail.com> Another message from the Parsha (Torah portion) that I found very interesting... *Hanoch * *Ki Tisa: What the World Will Say* Adar 15, 5769, 11 March 09 11:05 by by Tova Rhein (IsraelNN.com) *Mah yomru hagoyim?* - "What will the nations of the world say?" Throughout our history and our personal lives this has often been an injunction, both for good and sometimes, perhaps, for less than good, in order to see our actions from the perspective of others. In the case of potential *chilul HaShem* ("desecration of G-d's Name"), it is obviously most necessary. But in the political arena, for example, often the right thing to do is overshadowed by the need for approbation from others. Yet, it is this very same thought that Moshe *Rabbeinu* uses to convince *HaKadosh Baruch Hu*, after *chet ha'egel* ("the sin of the golden calf"), that *Am Yisrael* should be judged with compassion: *Lamah yomru Mitzrayim....* (* Shmot* 32:12) A little disconcerting. Since when are G-d's decisions susceptible to public opinion? I think that an answer can be found in the following *pasuk*, wherein Moshe states his second argument on behalf of *Bnei Yisrael* - the promise of *Eretz Yisrael to Am Yisrael*: *...eten l'zarachem v'nachalu l'olam.* As Rashi teaches us in the first *pasuk* of the Torah, this promise will be contested over and over again. This promise is not a private convenant. It is a public, irrevocable statement that affects all the nations of the world. It is therefore most appropriate that Moshe pleads with *HaShem* to consider world opinion. They are the ones who must know that the promise is permanent. May we merit that the nations of the world finally understand the Divine nature of our connection to this Land. ------------------------------------ Tova Rhein is the director of the Overseas Program at Midreshet Lindenbaum. She and her husband, Danny, live in Efrat and are proud parents and grandparents. *The foregoing commentary was distributed by the Aloh Naaleh organization.* www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/7b8ac9c4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 10:44:00 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch, thank-you for the reminder - timely word for me In-Reply-To: References: <49B90A38.54E66.5911@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <855590370903120844g607d9915g535201107294cafe@mail.gmail.com> Shalom Stephen - I am so glad that you found it useful...yeah, sometimes the "right words" find you just at the "right times." :-) It is very easy for us to forget that HaShem is INDEED a G-d of 'love and forgiveness' - that's the part that served as a 'reminder' for me, today.... Have a GREAT day Stephen, :-) * Hanoch * On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:29 AM, stephen wrote: > Hanoch, > > Thankyou for the Word this morning. I quote the part which struck > me. A good reminder to myself. I am currently seeking to keep my > Mom in a safe place, technically Not having the "legal" backing to do > so.... and it's easy to lose your cool when dealing with people who > should know better. It's like I've "always" known one should stay > focused on that unconditional love; but a good reminder now n then > certainly helps. Appreciate it. It is a very beautiful Word. > > Stephen > > In this second revelation God is telling Moses two things: first of all, > that He is a God of unconditional love, a God who loves before one sins and > who loves after one sins (Rashi), a God who freely forgives - even without > cause. Hence God will never reject His covenantal nation, will always > forgive with alacrity and will always continue to guide Israel on the road > to redemption. Secondly, if God is fundamentally a god of love and > forgiveness, we must be people of love and forgiveness. From the greatest > of > prophets to the lowliest hewers of wood and drawers of water, just as He > loves freely and is always ready to forgive, so must we love freely and > always be ready to forgive. > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/007f9021/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Mar 12 11:37:07 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:37:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! References: <35A3FBDE-9D61-48C9-A44D-5D60AEA29388@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Peace all.... This is a great subject! James the quote, "Israel is the people not the State" , Is so right on and inspires me to better understand why HIS people are desiring to make "the land" home! We must remember, this is the one thing our creator will do with all of his heart. Jeremiah 24:7 & Jeremiah 32:41 see ya'll at the conference... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:38 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! Hey Hez! I like the sound of that! It is surely true that a "vast number" in Israel are completely secular but I can not agree in any way that those who are moving there now will have a secular existence--far from it. I have traveled to Israel an average of five or six times a year since 1990 and have been exposed to almost every aspect of the society, from the religious/Rabbinical, the academic, the non-Jewish, and the political, the secular, and even the party crowd through my students. My impressions are the opposite these here expressed and I realize what you say here is one aspect, so this is not meant as a rebuke. I also found myself wondering if you have been back since 1971. It is a totally transformed country. If you have not seen it you would be amazed at the changes...good ones I mean. There is no place on earth with the throbbing, vital, pulsating, "religious," or I would prefer "spiritual" dimension that Israel has. Israel is the people not the State and the people are so wonderfully diverse, and so marvelous Jewish it is astounding. Also, in Israel "secular' can mean many things. After all, the Parashah portions are mentioned on secular TV each Friday afternoon. Everywhere I go in Israel I sense a spirit of Hashem that is manifesting itself in a myriad of ways, even among the so-called secular. There are so many Jews who might say--I am not religious, I don't believe in God--but inside can not leave it behind. It is in their soul and they know it. Half my academic friends are that way. And then there are the wonderful youth of Israel, by the tens of thousands, the millions, who are finally able, after 2000 years of exile to have a "normal" existence, as normal kids--but whose Judaism is so woven into their lives they could no more breath without it. And then the millions of "religious," yes, hopelessly divided, but still providing a solid block of Torah learning the likes of which exist nowhere else on the planet. And I have not even mentioned the hoards of "righteous gentiles," be they Yeshua oriented or not, who truly love the Jewish people and have sacrificed everything to be a part of this grand experiment. There is nothing else going on on the globe of more importance, as I see it, than the building of the people of Israel and their associates, in the Land. Notice--I did not say the State but the people. I suspect you will agree with lots of this and I don't mean it as some absolute challenge as I know where you are coming from here. I just want to encourage people. I close the last lines of my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, with the closing words of the Tanakh, "Let him go up." Those last paragraphs are powerful. The word echoes forth in every generation, HaShem's last word to us and the world! James On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: Hi John. Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel is also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want an end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing more than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group of Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called themselves the Jewish Reich. That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. Shalom,Chizkiyahu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/cdc3e3fa/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 12 13:56:11 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:56:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:t Lech L'cha Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Hez! I had lost the original reference, and now I know the source, so that I can retrieve all of it. Appreciate your being so helpful and quick to respond. Shalom to you and Miriam and welcome to our discussion group! Between the two of you, you have added much to some of the discussions.still trying catch up on all the emails. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Here you go Marvin. http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/12/2009 9:12:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Betty, where does this come from? I have seen this before but without a reference. Thanks, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60's and early 70's are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a 'Lech l'cha' from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a 'secular society', but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. "ONCE OR TWICE" in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard 'Lech l'cha' __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom's now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are." Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn't matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say. "Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!" And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your 'Lech l'cha!!!!' Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/f1134925/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 12 14:05:02 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:05:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] RE:t Lech L'cha Reference Message-ID: Hello Betty In reference to your comment: Thanks, Hez! I had lost the original reference, and now I know the source, so that I can retrieve all of it. Appreciate your being so helpful and quick to respond. Glad to be of help.If you need annoyed, I'm really good at that too LOL Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] RE:t Lech L'cha Reference Date: 3/12/2009 2:56:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _bkgivin at charter.net_ (mailto:bkgivin at charter.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Thanks, Hez! I had lost the original reference, and now I know the source, so that I can retrieve all of it. Appreciate your being so helpful and quick to respond. Shalom to you and Miriam and welcome to our discussion group! Between the two of you, you have added much to some of the discussions?still trying catch up on all the emails? Elisheva/Betty ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Here you go Marvin. _http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf_ (http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf) ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/12/2009 9:12:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Betty, where does this come from? I have seen this before but without a reference. Thanks, marvin ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60?s and early 70?s are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a ?Lech l?cha? from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a ?secular society?, but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. ?ONCE OR TWICE? in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard ?Lech l?cha? __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom?s now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are?? Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn?t matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say? ?Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!? And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your ?Lech l?cha!!!!? Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already si nce they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the ?little hand of God? that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT ?Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote ?In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason.? And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/854ea9b2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 12 14:40:32 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:40:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Lech L'cha Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are welcome, Hez, and thanks for the offer. The next time I need to be annoyed, I will be sure to let you know. Just kidding, but as you know, 'iron sharpens iron, and that is what is so good about this open dialogue we share! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE:t Lech L'cha Reference Hello Betty In reference to your comment: Thanks, Hez! I had lost the original reference, and now I know the source, so that I can retrieve all of it. Appreciate your being so helpful and quick to respond. Glad to be of help.If you need annoyed, I'm really good at that too LOL Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] RE:t Lech L'cha Reference Date: 3/12/2009 2:56:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Thanks, Hez! I had lost the original reference, and now I know the source, so that I can retrieve all of it. Appreciate your being so helpful and quick to respond. Shalom to you and Miriam and welcome to our discussion group! Between the two of you, you have added much to some of the discussions.still trying catch up on all the emails. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Here you go Marvin. http://www.womenslegacies.com/pdf/Tips-ToolsLossMarch2008.pdf ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/12/2009 9:12:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Betty, where does this come from? I have seen this before but without a reference. Thanks, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: John [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian John, I have to agree with you regarding the call that HaShem has placed on some to leave everything here behind in the states and move to Israel. Two of my dear friends in their late 60's and early 70's are making aliyah, and are scheduled to leave Wednesday. They have sold their home and most of their possessions because they have a heard a 'Lech l'cha' from HaShem. They are giving up everything to move to Israel and it is certainly not because they want to be a part of a 'secular society', but rather in spite of the secularism so prevalent in Israel today. They are going because HaShem has placed the call upon their hearts to return to His Land! Secular or not, Eretz Yisrael is still the place where HaShem chose to place His Name, and there are dedicated people who live there who still believe and uphold that fact and want to make a difference. Encouragement rather than discouragement is what they and all those, including yourself and Carin need. I am reminded of a portion of a short paragraph I read in a prayer book recently. "ONCE OR TWICE" in a lifetime, A man or woman may choose A radical leaving, having heard 'Lech l'cha' __ Go forth. G-d disturbs us toward our destiny By hard events and by freedom's now urgent voice Which explode and confirm who we are." Who am I to judge and say you and Carin, John, or to Hanoch (who is planning on and making aliyah in the fall and joining his beautiful daughters) , or to my friends or to anyone that moves to Israel that you or that they are not called, that Israel is a secular society and that it doesn't matter how many people move there, it is not going to change???!!! To the contrary, I say. "Go for it with all your heart and all your soul!" And may HaShem go before you every step of the way in your 'Lech l'cha!!!!' Love and blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Hez, I'm with you on most of what you say but there always seems to be something that raises a question. On this list, that's not a bad thing. You said, "Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence....", I have to take exception to this. Some are called to be there, everyone I've met of that ilk have no idea why, but it is certainly not for secular reasons. Think about it, we have told most of our friends that we intend to move there and their first response is, "Are you nuts, they're launching rockets over there!" Please, whatever your opinion, don't discourage those who are called to be there. Your are right that the political regime is largely secular in Israel, but it won't get any better if we discourage Torah followers from moving there, regardless of the consequences. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Hi Marvin. Thanks for taking a look at what I posted to the thread. Actually,just like in Judaism,the Noahide laws are part of Islam already since they are an Avrahamic faith, but you're right, it would be a great thing if he could point them back into belief in their own faith as it reads in the Quran rather than by what some mufti's deem is what it says while totally ignoring parts. I'm assuming the term "restored house of Israel" is a reference to an Israel that is following Torah with the Temple restored, with Moshiach come and sitting on the throne of Israel, as it should. Money from Arabs would have no effect on being able to bring that about, so I don't understand where you are coming from on that point.If a reference to the ingathering to the land, only Hashem can call that gathering for the fulfillment. Every one of us on earth could move there, but it would just be the secular existence that is now. I read about a Jewish Knesset member that complained he couldn't get non-kosher food in the cafeteria.It would be nice if redemption could be bought;we could put it on our Visa card. <- a little humor,ok,very little The part I quoted was "fleeing for no apparent reason". The original author uses that phrase. I've seen the same used before in anti-Israel pieces. It is a writing tool technique that leaves the opinion as to why open to the reader.With the abundant supply of the propaganda that they were thrown out, that is usually the first thing to cross someone's mind.Here,I'll give another example. I had a corned beef sandwich on this type of bread I get fresh at the bakery.You see keywords like corned beef and type of bread. What type did you think of? My guess would be rye.Yes? I gave those quotes from Arab papers to show they were not thrown out in 1948. What better source than their own words to disprove a lie spread for years. Your neighbor that hates you crashes his car into a pole and blamed you even though you didn't cause it. He then constantly tells everyone you caused it until a number of people believe it and you even start seeing it written up as truth in newspapers and more people think you did it. Now, you find a video that has that neighbor saying he lied and set you up. Would you use that to clear your name? Using their own faith, a case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities." After all, five Arab nations attacked a population of 600,000 men,women and children in Israel 1948 to destroy them. Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims. The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We [Allah] shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations". Sura 83:1 says, "Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew. The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] fleeing Palestinian Date: 3/10/2009 10:13:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hezakiak, Thanks for your reply to your background and were your perspective comes from and you are correct an X christian here. The Noahide laws and the NT you laid out beautifully, I have no problems with that, generally my own understanding. As per the opinion of Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, he seems to be attempting to raise a voice in Islam and the muslim world. I hope he succeeds in sharing the 7 laws of Noah with the Muslim world, and his understanding that the Land is Hashems gift to Israel it is a promise that cannot be revoked. It is tied into the natural laws of the universe that govern the sun and the moon. (Jer31) If sheikh AHP succeeds then maybe the muslim world will use all of our petro dollars to re-establish the Jews / and Ephraim back in the land and thus we will have the restored House of Israel, which we do not have today. Sura 10:93 We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things. What I did not understand is your taking issue with the fleeing Arabs(muslims). The rational reason as stated in your many quotes, is probably fact, no disagreement. But from reading your post, and maybe it was my misreading and understanding is that you seem to lean toward a rational reason more then the "little hand of God" that was at work. With out looking up the references it seems like we have several instances in the Bible(OT -Only Testament, I like that.) were we have the enemy fleeing, turning on each other and so forth. Now, If I was a reporter in the Arab world several thousands years ago I could report a rational reason why Israel was the winner in a conflict with their enemies, just like rationalist try to find an explanation for every miracle(loosely used) in the bible to explain away the hand of God in the affairs of his people Israel. What I still fail to understand is your issue with the quote "In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from their land and fled the country for no rational reason." And then to support your viewpoint, you only quote from enemy sources. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/cc1bb90d/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 12 15:27:42 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:27:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! In-Reply-To: References: <35A3FBDE-9D61-48C9-A44D-5D60AEA29388@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Absoluitely, Dave and James! It has always been about the people! Yet, the Land or Jerusalem, is where HaShem chose to place His Name (2 Kings 21:4). So the people and the land (not necessarily the current State, if that distinction could be made) are intricately entwined, and have been throughout history. Thanks for the reminder, Dave, that the ONE thing HaShem will do with all of His heart is to bring His people back Home! I think the question is how... and much has been written on that subject. We have all read all the verses and no doubt have spent many hours in study, meditation and prayer poring over them.and whether or not we all agree on exactly how all this will come to pass, we know that indeed it will! Baruch HaShem! Shalom back to you and all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! Peace all.... This is a great subject! James the quote, "Israel is the people not the State" , Is so right on and inspires me to better understand why HIS people are desiring to make "the land" home! We must remember, this is the one thing our creator will do with all of his heart. Jeremiah 24:7 & Jeremiah 32:41 see ya'll at the conference... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:38 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Not Secular! Hey Hez! I like the sound of that! It is surely true that a "vast number" in Israel are completely secular but I can not agree in any way that those who are moving there now will have a secular existence--far from it. I have traveled to Israel an average of five or six times a year since 1990 and have been exposed to almost every aspect of the society, from the religious/Rabbinical, the academic, the non-Jewish, and the political, the secular, and even the party crowd through my students. My impressions are the opposite these here expressed and I realize what you say here is one aspect, so this is not meant as a rebuke. I also found myself wondering if you have been back since 1971. It is a totally transformed country. If you have not seen it you would be amazed at the changes...good ones I mean. There is no place on earth with the throbbing, vital, pulsating, "religious," or I would prefer "spiritual" dimension that Israel has. Israel is the people not the State and the people are so wonderfully diverse, and so marvelous Jewish it is astounding. Also, in Israel "secular' can mean many things. After all, the Parashah portions are mentioned on secular TV each Friday afternoon. Everywhere I go in Israel I sense a spirit of Hashem that is manifesting itself in a myriad of ways, even among the so-called secular. There are so many Jews who might say--I am not religious, I don't believe in God--but inside can not leave it behind. It is in their soul and they know it. Half my academic friends are that way. And then there are the wonderful youth of Israel, by the tens of thousands, the millions, who are finally able, after 2000 years of exile to have a "normal" existence, as normal kids--but whose Judaism is so woven into their lives they could no more breath without it. And then the millions of "religious," yes, hopelessly divided, but still providing a solid block of Torah learning the likes of which exist nowhere else on the planet. And I have not even mentioned the hoards of "righteous gentiles," be they Yeshua oriented or not, who truly love the Jewish people and have sacrificed everything to be a part of this grand experiment. There is nothing else going on on the globe of more importance, as I see it, than the building of the people of Israel and their associates, in the Land. Notice--I did not say the State but the people. I suspect you will agree with lots of this and I don't mean it as some absolute challenge as I know where you are coming from here. I just want to encourage people. I close the last lines of my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, with the closing words of the Tanakh, "Let him go up." Those last paragraphs are powerful. The word echoes forth in every generation, HaShem's last word to us and the world! James On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: Hi John. Personally I'd love to go back there for good. I spent a good amount of time there back in 71 laying irrigation pipe. In no way,shape or form do I discourage any of us from making aliyah. I fully believe the return of a sovereign Israel in 1948 and the fact many are leaving everything they ever knew to move there is a sign that what is promised is coming. I also fully believe the huge rise in anti-Semitism and baseless hatred of the nations toward Israel is also a sign of them coming against Israel as it says in prophesy. Yes,many feel called to go. There are great religious communities developing in Israel, but it still remains that a vast number are completely secular and many native born are leaving for other countries. You have political parties that strive in any way they can to destroy Torah virtues and try to even deny religious Jews the right to be just that.You even have Jews there that want an end to Israel and march arm in arm with those that want nothing more than to slaughter every one of us. I even read about a group of Jewish youths that were arrested that had the belief that all religious Jews should be rounded up and killed.They called themselves the Jewish Reich. That is why I say no matter if all of us picked up and moved there,it would be a secular existence and only when Hashem fulfills prophesy and calls us back will it become what it supposed to be.Like I said, signs of what is to come are starting like the sun coming up.You can see the light, but it's still half dark. Shalom,Chizkiyahu _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/1adee456/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Mar 12 16:37:19 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:37:19 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH : POST MORTEM. Message-ID: <49B9808F.3020307@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/992ed031/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Mar 12 18:51:26 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:51:26 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] ATTENTION - NEW VIRUS. Message-ID: <49B99FFE.7010504@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/5edae350/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 19:11:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:11:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Shabbat: Rest Assured' Message-ID: <855590370903121711o73592c15tc02c3a9bd3c39a5b@mail.gmail.com> This is a great article that Rabbi Aaron (of Isralight) wrote about Shabbat observance. It's well worth your time to read it, whatever your background or perspective are... * Hanoch* SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight [image: http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102503374009&e=001vQTj2sEwZjGZgj2BaE7ZYWoFXXc-BBMafkwUq-I_TtRGrjgN2rQNE10IqU5dTxzSTcYwvYwYE_qywnjwDgrO5T-JohMbEIdH0-2Yd9_2SDg6-Ykw-hI4sQ==] *Shabbat: Rest Assured * [image: http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102503374009&e=001vQTj2sEwZjH4On-SHK_MG1QcU5mkNJWZFHwMkgQUcDg2V2KtqoOGp5gJSZqvj2yEGvzC2dK0m8f4DQU_85IYPZLoDxFt_PLNW-Yg7UWOc0hfndkTut05j3P6DaROB22y7qYhuUSjADTk92t_J5zki0pg0X_6nN4_] *Keep the Shabbat for it is holy unto you..... because in six days G-d made heaven and earth: and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested. *(Exodus 31: 14-17) Most people know what you don't do on Shabbat: you don't tear toilet paper, you don't drive, you don't write, you don't turn on lights, you don't shop, etc. But they don't know why, and they don't know what it is you, in fact, *do *on Shabbat. And of course, when you just focus on what you don't do on Shabbat, the experience-which is supposed to be joyous and fulfilling-basically ends up sounding like torture. You have to ask yourself, "Is this the way I want to celebrate a holiday? Is this how I want to spend my weekend after working hard all week long?" In order to understand the real meaning of Shabbat, let's explore the first place it is mentioned in the Torah. This paragraph is from the Book of Genesis and it is recited every Friday night at the start of the Shabbat dinner as part of a blessing over wine called *kiddush*: *And it was evening, it was morning, the sixth day. And heaven and earth were completed and all their hosts. And G-d completed on the seventh day, the work that He did, and G-d refrained on the seventh day from the work that He did. * There seems to be a contradiction here. It is common knowledge that G-d created the world in six days and on the seventh day He rested. According to these words, however, it sounds like G-d did do something on the seventh day, as it says "and G-d completed on the seventh day, the work that He did..." But had it not been previously stated that "it was evening, it was morning, the sixth day, and heaven and earth were completed and all their hosts"? If G-d finished His work on the sixth day, so what is it that He did on the seventh day? According to the 11th century Torah Commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki Rashi), the world was still missing something-rest. Therefore only then, on the seventh day, when G-d rested was the work of creation finished and completed. In other words, G-d finished His work on the seventh day by resting. When G-d rested on the seventh day this retroactively completed the work of the six days. The very fact that G-d abstained from activity on the seventh day is what enabled everything that happened during the six days to become a whole and complete act of creativity. What determines if an act is a creative act or merely physical labor? The deciding factor is whether I am able to start and stop. If I can't start this activity and if I can't stop this activity, then basically I'm a mindless, compulsive, laborious slave. I'm simply a robot on auto drive. That's the difference. Creativity is an act of mind and intention. Creativity is something I start doing, and creativity is something I can stop doing at will. I am in control. If I start a creative act but I can't stop, then it is no longer creativity-it is a mindless, laborious, compulsive activity. I become a victim to some kind of force that's carrying me rather than a master of my actions directed by my will and intention. When we celebrate Shabbat we are saying that G-d stopped the work that he had done, which retroactively indicates that G-d also started the work. Therefore the work that he had done was an act of creativity -- the world is a complete creation. While some might claim that either the world has always existed or the world is just an expression of laborious, mindless, natural laws, there is, in fact, a third possibility-that the world is an act of creation, an expression of will and intent. And that's the key difference. Do I choose to believe in a world which is merely a product of blind, laborious, natural forces, which are simply pumping out the world, or do I choose to believe that the world is the intentional expression of a mindful and willful power-G-d? If I live in a world that is the product of intention, if I live in a world that was meant to be, then I live in a meaningful world. A world that wasn't meant to be is not a meaningful world. A world that is simply the product of blind, natural forces that somehow came into being doesn't have meaning, because it doesn't have a beginning, it doesn't have an end, it doesn't have direction, and it doesn't have intention. That's really the choice-how we choose to perceive our world. When we recite the *kiddush* on Friday night, and affirm that the world was completed on the seventh day, we are testifying that the world is a creation, which means it is meaningful, it is purposeful, it has a theme, it has direction. It means that we believe that the world is not simply the mechanistic outcome of natural laws but an expression of creativity. We believe that the world is not the product of nature at work but the creative masterpiece of G-d. To know this truth and to celebrate it weekly changes my whole week and my whole life. When I stop on Shabbat and refrain from doing creative activity, I renew the image of G-d in which I've been created. Otherwise, I am merely an animal compelled and propelled by my natural instincts rather than a being created in the image of G-d who has a free will, who has a mind, who has the ability to choose. Some people can't stop. They don't know how to take a rest. They don't know how to put aside what they're doing. They're compulsive. These are not creative people, these are people who labor. They are slaves to their jobs and slaves to their instincts. There's a very cute animated cartoon about Shabbat produced by an organization called Gesher. It portrays a very busy day in Manhattan, a lot of noise and a lot of traffic, and you see a policeman in the middle of all this traffic, but he doesn't have a face- he has a whistle for a head. And then you see a lot of people walking down the street but nobody has a face; one fellow has a computer monitor for a head, another has a pen for a head, and another has a wrench for a head. It is a faceless world. Everyone has become his or her career. They are no longer people *with *careers, they *are *careers. There's a feeling of tension and every so often you see a clock that is ticking towards some set time. One fellow, who has a briefcase for a head, is shown walking quickly home. When he finally reaches his home, he enters, sits down in a soft chair, and an alarm clock rings. At that moment his briefcase head melts into a warm and smiling face and he joyfully says "Shabbat Shalom." This cute cartoon delivers the point-I can lose my humanness. I can become my career. If I become my career then my career leads me and I'm just a victim of a mechanistic world; I'm just another cog in a big machine called Planet Earth. Shabbat is the antidote to mechanism. Shabbat is the antidote to the notion that the world is simply some big machine constantly in motion. When I stop on Shabbat, I demonstrate that I am not a compulsive, laborious, mindless force, but rather I am a human being created in the image of G-d, and I make my own choices. *Stop in the Name of Love* I stop on Shabbat because if I don't stop on Shabbat, then I mistakenly think that my life is my business, instead of G-d's business, and I am "self- employed." Imagine I'm working in a company and the company closes on Saturday, but I decide to go in to work anyway. Why? The Jewish attitude is that the human being is an agent for G-d, and because of this the human being can actually become an angel (*malach*) by accepting to do G-d's creative work (*malacha*). In other words, G-d created a world full of opportunities for creativity and He appointed me His agent to complete His creative work. If I'm all by myself, and I'm just a sole proprietor, it's no big deal. But when I feel like I'm part of a huge corporation, and we're all working for the Boss, that's different. And if the Boss closes the business on Saturday but I go into work just the same, then I am confusing myself by thinking that I don't need to follow his schedule, his rules, that this is *my *business and I do not work for anyone. When I don't work on Shabbat I remind myself that I'm really working for G-d. During the week I am empowered with His power-of-attorney to work on His behalf. I represent G-d in what I do in this world. This is a tremendous honor. G-d has entrusted me to do His job. He could have done it Himself if He wanted to, but He wanted me to do it so that I could be part of creation and contribute creatively. Yet somehow I could get confused and forget who I'm working for. If that happens then I have fallen into a very egotistical illusion that I work for myself, and that this creative work is my own, and that this world is mine and nobody else's business. When you celebrate Shabbat you remind yourself, "This world is G-d's business, and I just work here." That's why Shabbat is referred to as the source of all blessings. If I stop working on Shabbat, I'm affirming that my work throughout the week was for G-d's sake-then everything I do is blessed with the status of being holy work. There is a great deal of truth in the observation of the early Zionist leader, Ahad Ha'am: "More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews." *Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d Inand Living A Joyous Life* For more of Rabbi Aaron's *Sparks*, click here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/38da2dbe/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 12 19:55:24 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:55:24 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] ATTENTION - NEW VIRUS. Message-ID: Watching out for nastys on the net and email is important, but this is an old email hoax. It talks about it on several sites like Snopes, Hoaxbuster and others. It IS nice to know that folks on here do watch each others back though. Thanx,J. Hez _Life is Beautiful Virus Hoax_ (http://www.hoax-slayer.com/life-is-beautiful-virus-hoax.html) **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/d5ca24bd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 20:32:04 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:32:04 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] CYCLONE HAMISH : POST MORTEM. In-Reply-To: <49B9808F.3020307@westnet.com.au> References: <49B9808F.3020307@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903121832p1ce1de3ex1d5d3ad3580f9a84@mail.gmail.com> Hey Mate, I am so sorry to hear about the currently occurring, and impending environmental damage to your gorgeous country. It's things like this that DO cause you to wonder what's happening in the world...and how much longer it can possibly go on. In the last year (or so) I recall hearing that a 'chunk' of the ice shelf (near Canada) broke off. It isn't just a 'chunk' of ice - it's ice the size of the country of Ireland! May HaShem have mercy upon us, and the planet we live on... * Hanoch * On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:37 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Chaverim, > > the cyclone has past, Baruch HaShem. > > However, our immediate coastline with its pristine beaches and islands have > bee declared a disaster zone. > > Here is the catch. HaShem manifested incredible mercy on His behalf in > sending the cyclone back away from populated areas negating human casualties > and damage. > Not so with man. A cargo container ship decided to sail into the storm. > During the height of the storm it lost 31 containers of ammonium nitrate > into the sea. One container damaged the hull of the ship sending tons of oil > spewing into the sea. > The environmental impact is enormous with over 30 kilometres of coastline > affected around Moreton Island and the Sunshine Coast. > * > http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/gallery/0,23816,5037807-17382-1,00.html > * > > The 31 containers of ammonium nitrate have not been recovered and these > pose an even greater threat. > > Moral of the story : humanity is its own greatest enemy. Our own pollution > of black oil ( materialism and fallen nature ) poses the greatest risk to > our very existence. The Golden Oil of HaShem ( spirituality and resurrected > nature) guarantees our future survival. > > It is amazing that the arrogance of man would defy the forces of nature > sent by HaShem to humble us and lead us to repentance and actually have the > audacity to set sail into this enormous storm. > > The western world with its cocky reliance on self has set sail into the > impending storm or whirlwind of HaShem. > This cyclone was named Hamish , aka James , aka Jacob. > > Is there a message ??? > > Shabbat Shalom > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/76f8b25f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 20:45:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:45:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today Message-ID: <855590370903121845k478485c1sf2458de676dfac88@mail.gmail.com> I was just thinking about the concept of 'Tikun Olam' - repairing the world (I was thinking of it literally as well as well as spiritually), and I saw this quote... * Hanoch* ** *?If you believe that you can damage, believe you can fix.?* *- Rebbe Nachman of Breslov* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090312/6545b1d3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 05:38:35 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:38:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'True Freedom' Message-ID: <855590370903130338l489ba327v5bb02f0a0561b473@mail.gmail.com> *From Rav Lazer Brody - words of Torah and a song..* * Shabbat Shalom,* * ** Hanoch* *True Freedom * Now that Purim is over, we have less than four weeks until Passover. Many folks are beginning their spring cleaning and other Pesach preparations. Don't forget, though - the spiritual preparations for the "Holiday of Freedom" (Passover marks G-d's redemption of the people of Israel from slavery in Egypt 3,321 years ago) are just as important as the material preparations. [image: http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345263cd69e201127964c73d28a4-pi]True freedom means that you are at liberty to seek the truth, even if that's not the popular thing to do. True freedom means that you don't carry around a ball and chain of conformity. True freedom is an ability to break free from anything that stifles your soul. When you walk away from a peer group that's doing something wrong, you are free. If you do what's right despite jeer and ridicule, then you're both courageous and free. That's the lesson of the courageous Levites at the time of the Golden Calf - they walked from what they knew was wrong. Let's follow in their footsteps and separate ourselves from the Golden Calf of 2009. There's no better feeling than doing what's right. The money and the cheap thrills are going down the drain, but Torah, emuna, and mitzva observance are here forever. Hashem is calling all of us in these final days before Moshiach to make a clear choice. If your a Beams reader, there's no doubt about which choice in life you're making - certainly not the Golden Calf. You therefore deserve a treat - here's Ari Goldwag singing Ka Ribon Olam. Teach your family this melody at your Shabbat evening meal - they'll love it. Have a wonderful Shabbat Ki Tisa. Click here: YouTube - Ka Ribon Olam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/146589f4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 05:50:56 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:50:56 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a reminder of what it's all about... Message-ID: <855590370903130350j724c4fe4s8755e062360bc5c4@mail.gmail.com> The Lesson of Seder Night %Date% by by from "Hollywood to the Holy Land" BLOG - Tzvi Fishman (IsraelNN.com) Thirty days before Pesach, we begin learning the halachot of the holiday. With all of Pesach?s many stringent laws, it is important to recall the simple meaning of the celebration, as it is recreated for us via the festive Seder night. *Next Year in Jerusalem!* The Seder night, with its recounting of our birth as a nation, comes to teach us and our children that G-d wants us to live in the Land of Israel. It is as simple as that. The Haggagah begins: ?This year we are here (in Egypt, New York, Australia, England) ? next year in the Land of Israel. This year we are slaves (in Egypt, California, Paris, South Africa) ? next year free men (in our own country.) If that isn?t enough for every six-year old to understand, the Seder concludes with the fervent hope: ?Next year in Jerusalem!? Can any lesson be clearer than this? But for some reason, even though we have been repeating it for 4000 years, even though we have El Al Airlines, the money for a ticket, and Nefesh B?Nefesh financial stipends for those needing aid, its message still hasn?t sunk in. *What more do you want G-d to do for you?* Why? Because the fleshpots of Egypt and America and Paris are very enticing for someone who only seeks the material aspects of life. But G-d demands more of a Jew. He wants us to put our material preoccupations aside, and to live in His Holy Land as holy Jews and as a holy Jewish NATION and this is something we can only do in our own Jewish Land, and not as scattered minorities in foreign places. *Sarah and Wonton prepare for their Seder in Kyoto* So, this month, while you are cleaning the chametz out of your homes and hearts, remember that the principle thing isn?t the wine, and the gefilte fish, and the Manischewitz chocolate chip macaroons, but rather the lesson of the Seder. *Take a supply along with your aliyah shipment* See you this year in Jerusalem! www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/fd26b5f9/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 06:12:08 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 04:12:08 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who was it that said Jews were smart?!? Message-ID: <855590370903130412p7cb10485gf4f16e630f240923@mail.gmail.com> What a bunch of sick, leftist morons... * Hanoch* Court Expected to Nix Law that Keeps Arabs from Flooding Israel Adar 17, 5769, 13 March 09 09:06 by by Gil Ronen (IsraelNN.com) The Israeli High Court will convene Sunday to discuss a petition jointly submitted by Adalah (The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel), former Knesset Member Zahava Gal-On and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) to strike down the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order), enacted by the Knesset in 2003. The law was passed in order to stem the flood of ?Palestinian? Arabs who entered Israel from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and from enemy Arab countries and received Israeli citizenship by marrying Arabs who already possessed Israeli citizenship. The High Court has heard the appeal against the law in the past and struck it down by a one-vote margin. On Sunday, however, the High Court will convene in a seven-member panel headed by Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch to hear the petition again, and this time it is expected to rule in favor of striking down the law. According to grassroots Zionist activism group Im Tirtzu, *?between 1993 and 2003, 130,000 Palestinians who had lived in enemy Arab countries and in Judea and Samaria received Israeli citizenship through marriage with Israeli Arabs. By making use of the Israeli law which had allowed the granting of citizenship to Arabs who marry Israeli citizens, the Palestinians succeeded in meaningfully changing the demographic balance within Israel and to begin implementing their demand for the return of refugees into Israel.?* The Knesset law that prevents this was passed as a temporary order in 2003 and is extended annually by the Knesset. It prevents Arabs from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, as well as citizens of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran, from receiving Israeli citizenship by marrying Israeli citizens. According to demographic expert Arnon Sofer, if the court annuls the law, hundreds of thousands of Arabs within the Middle East will marry family members in Israel and gradually erase the Jewish majority in Israel. Im Tirzu is holding a demonstration outside the Supreme Court building in Jerusalem at 9:00 a.m. Sunday. *Information (in Hebrew) on the demonstration and contact details can be viewed **here* *.* www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/f1b6f10c/attachment.html From dstone34 at cox.net Fri Mar 13 06:34:26 2009 From: dstone34 at cox.net (Diana Stone) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:34:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today References: <855590370903121845k478485c1sf2458de676dfac88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shalom Hanoch and All, This is one of my favorite quotes by Rebbe Nachman. In fact, I have in taped above my desk at work and at home. I also include his words, "If you believe that you can harm, then believe that you can heal..." Blessings, Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:45 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today I was just thinking about the concept of 'Tikun Olam' - repairing the world (I was thinking of it literally as well as well as spiritually), and I saw this quote... Hanoch ?If you believe that you can damage, believe you can fix.? - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/be40eac1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 06:42:54 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 04:42:54 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today In-Reply-To: References: <855590370903121845k478485c1sf2458de676dfac88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370903130442j54dd4a1w4f3c17534d02e97b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Diana, I'm so glad you liked it! I had just been bemoaning the state of the environment, and stumbled across this quote - which astoundingly, I had never seen before. May we all draw inspiration from it! Shabbat Shalom, * Hanoch * On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Diana Stone wrote: > Shalom Hanoch and All, > > This is one of my favorite quotes by Rebbe Nachman. In fact, I have in > taped above my desk at work and at home. I also include his words, *"If > you believe that you can harm, then believe that you can heal..." * > ** > Blessings, > > Diana > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Hanoch Young > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:45 PM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Quote for today > > I was just thinking about the concept of 'Tikun Olam' - repairing the > world (I was thinking of it literally as well as well as spiritually), and I > saw this quote... > * Hanoch* > ** > *?If you believe that you can damage, believe you can fix.?* > > *- Rebbe Nachman of Breslov* > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/f1e8dc37/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Mar 13 09:57:59 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:57:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today In-Reply-To: References: <855590370903121845k478485c1sf2458de676dfac88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017501c9a3ec$1b329940$5197cbc0$@com> Hi Diana, that is a most awesome quote. patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Diana Stone Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 7:34 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today Shalom Hanoch and All, This is one of my favorite quotes by Rebbe Nachman. In fact, I have in taped above my desk at work and at home. I also include his words, "If you believe that you can harm, then believe that you can heal..." Blessings, Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:45 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today I was just thinking about the concept of 'Tikun Olam' - repairing the world (I was thinking of it literally as well as well as spiritually), and I saw this quote... Hanoch "If you believe that you can damage, believe you can fix." - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/9aa12f84/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 11:10:24 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:10:24 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, our 'Partners in Peace...' Message-ID: <855590370903130910u4fa0eb1ckb0dfd8dc7ed92649@mail.gmail.com> *PA TV Celebrates Murder Spree *by Gil Ronen [image: PA TV Celebrates Murder Spree] Israel National News The Palestinian Authority (PA) celebrated the single most murderous attack against Israeli civilians by broadcasting an hour-long special Wednesday on its official television station. Arabs who penetrated into Israel by rubber dinghies from Lebanon carried out the attack, known in Israel as the Coastal Road Terror Attack, on March 11, 1978. They hijacked a tourist bus and killed 38 civilians, 13 of them children. PA TV celebrated the attack on the anniversary of the hijacking with an hour-long special. The program included interviews with terrorists who described the planning and implementation of the murder spree. Palestinian Media Watchreported that the program opened with the narrator glorifying the attack as: *??one of the most important and most prominent special actions, executed by the Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing events of the Arab-Israeli conflict." * Mughrabi and 11 other terrorists landed by Zodiac boats on a beach near Ma'agan Michael, north of Tel Aviv. They fatally shot American photographer Gail Rubin who was taking nature photographs nearby, reached the Coastal Highway and commandeered a bus that was carrying Egged bus drivers and their families on a day outing. *Passengers burned alive *The bus continued driving south on the Coastal Road (Highway 2) while the terrorists fired and threw grenades at passing cars, shot passengers and dumped at least one body out of the bus. At one point, they hijacked another bus and forced the passengers from the first bus to board it. An explosion caused either by an exploding fuel tank or a grenade set the bus on fire, killing 38 civilians, 13 of them children. 71 Israelis were wounded. An article published in the July 10, 2008 edition of the PA?s Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda daily newspaper called Al-Mughrabi "a living legend and a wonderful example for all women." Al Jazeera TV also aired a program in 2008 focusing on Al-Mughrabi and extolling her exploits. The focus on the terrorist came on the heels of the transfer of her body to the Hizbullah as part of the ransom for the bodies of IDF soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. Comment on this story -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/e998f9b3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:06:15 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:06:15 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "We went to Sderot" Message-ID: <855590370903131006k68dee9e3o7993c7af0a8c0a1e@mail.gmail.com> Shalom to all, As we prepare our Shabbat meals, it's vital to remember all those in Israel who go hungry, because they simply cannot afford enough food. The group written about below, B'Ahavat Yisrael, is one of the groups that really try to MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Although we might not be able to be in Sderot for Pesah (Passover), we CAN help assure that no one there goes without....and remember - they're on the front lines for US. Please help, and please get this note in the hands of everyone who is willing to do *something. * Shabbat Shalom, *Hanoch* *Please Forward! * We are moving our mailing list, please sign up to our new list at http://www.bahavatyisrael.org.il 17 Adar 5769 March 13, 2009 We Went To Sderot... Earlier this week B'Ahavat Yisrael staff and volunteers went to Sderot to distribute Mishloach Manot (Purim gift packages) to the residents of the Kassam rocket plagued city. Thanks to some last minute generous donations we were able to distribute almost 2,000 packages for Purim. We didn't know it at the time but on the same day that we were in Sderot only a few kilometers away 4 Kassam rockets had landed in open fields. To the people of Sderot this has become an accepted way of life. Only if you speak with many of the people who live there can you begin to see that life in Sderot is anything but normal. We go to Sderot several times per year. Whenever we have enough sponsors for a food drive we quickly organize and go. For Purim, we decided to interview more residents and spend some time within Kassam damaged homes. Hopefully by next week we will send out an edited video clip of this past week's activity in Sderot. There is one street that many of us found most disturbing. I mentioned the name of the street in the video but we will edit out the name. You see this particular street has a huge percentage of houses that have sustained rocket damage. The residents explained to me why this neighborhood is so disproportionately damaged. *Members of Israel's leftist dominated press have a habit of going to the scene of an attack and then immediately report live exactly where the rocket hit. This gives the terrorist thugs in Gaza the opportunity to focus better for their next attack!* *Outside Kassam destroyed house * *happy Sderot children * *Volunteer Lavi Cohen with his hands full * *Sderot Volunteer Jacques Cohen with Director Joel Busner 'down by the school yard' * We're Going Back To Sderot While we hope and pray that the Israeli authorities will once and for all allow the army to smash the terrorists and stop the rockets from falling, we aren't counting on it any time soon. While the economy this year is bad everywhere, the overall situation in Sderot is by far worse in proportion to other Jewish communities both in Israel and abroad. There are plenty of people begging for basic necessities such as food and clothing. There are no hotels in Sderot and you'd be hard pressed to find a resident of Sderot who could afford to go to any of the 5 star luxury hotels that thousands of Jewish families will flock to even this year. Last year we gave 200 families full Passover food packages all of which had plenty of beef, chicken, fish, wine, etc. *Whether we give 50 families or 2,000 families (which is our goal!) we will do it the way it should be done; with dignity*. We won't say that we gave to 400 or 600 families but in reality only to have given them Matzoh, Oil, sugar, salt, etc. We will give them with 'Kavod', respect. We will give to each one generously to ensure that at least for Passover they won't be lacking. By donating through B'Ahavat Yisrael you will also be helping the local economy as every single item will be purchased in Sderot and our volunteers will then assemble the packages and personally deliver them to the recipients. As is the case everywhere in the world, the prices of basic food staples tend to rise in Israel as well leading up to Passover. The earlier we get significant donations for Passover the cheaper we will pay for items such as beef, chicken, and fish. This will help us to distribute to even more people. Please click to see the different donation options for Passover in Sderot. Wishing you all a Shabbat Shalom, www.bahavatyisrael.org.il In Israel: B'Ahavat Yisrael P.O. Box 247 Poriya Neve Oved 15210 Israel In US (tax deductible): Friends of B'Ahavat Yisrael 4809 Avenue N, PMB# 284 Brooklyn, NY 11234 With love of Israel, Yosef Ben Tzion (Joel Busner) Director, B'Ahavat Yisrael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/42b8c3ac/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:14:05 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:14:05 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Modern" King David saga hits TV! Message-ID: <855590370903131014o8711393r3315ba1629fb7aa5@mail.gmail.com> Starting Sunday, a new TV series that uses the Tanach as its inspiration! King David, King Saul, Samuel, Goliath - they'll all be there; just looking a bit different....LOL * Hanoch* Yeshiva vet aims to make King David must see TV By Tom Tugend ? March 13, 2009 - Photos [image: Actors Ian McShane and Chris Egan play reimagined versions of the prophet Samuel and King David in the new NBC series 'Kings.'] 1 out of 1 Other Media Actors Ian McShane and Chris Egan play *reimagined versions of the prophet Samuel and King David in the new NBC series 'Kings.' * LOS ANGELES (JTA) -- Michael Green was walking down a street in Jerusalem in late 2006, when the concept of the new television series ?Kings? came into focus. ?The idea had been roiling my brain for a while,? Green said, but now he sat down to write the pilot for ?Kings,? while working as writer and co-executive producer for ?Heroes.? ?Kings,? which will launch with special two-hour premiere on March 15, takes the biblical drama of young David, Goliath, King Saul and the prophet Samuel and transports it to a contemporary city that looks a lot like a gleaming New York after a thorough scrubbing. Don?t look for a 21st century swords-and-sandals epic in the NBC series. The political intrigues and corporate power plays have a distinctly Washingtonian ring, and part of the fun is to look for parallels to the last year of President George W. Bush?s administration, the Cold War, Vietnam, Iraq, Middle East conflicts and even the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Green, who attended a yeshiva in New York and whose mother is Israeli, is a bit coy about drawing direct biblical-contemporary comparisons. ?It?s not for me to say what the parallels are,? he commented. ?That?s up to each viewer.? However, the Jewish or Christian viewer, who stayed awake in Sunday school, should have no trouble identifying the TV protagonists with their biblical counterparts. We meet King Silas Benjamin (King Saul of the tribe of Benjamin, first king of Israel), David Shepherd (David, the shepherd), the king?s son Jack (Jonathan), the king's daughter Michelle (Michal), and the Rev. Ephraim Samuels (the Prophet Samuel). Actors in the two key roles are Ian McShane (?Heroes?) as the king and Australian actor Chris Egan as David. In the premiere episode, we find the king, in an expensive power suit, ruling over the prosperous Kingdom of Gilboa and ensconced with his queen in a mansion in the capital of Shiloh. He is also at war with neighboring Gath and when his son is kidnapped during a military skirmish, it is David, a fellow soldier, who frees Jack and earns the gratitude of the king. To free the hostage, David has to do battle with Goliath, who appears in a rather unexpected form. At home, David becomes an instant media favorite. Peace is made but soon broken, followed by new negotiations with prickly Gath officers, who look suspiciously like Russian generals, with square faces and jackets-full of medals. On a softer touch, David and Michelle (the beautiful Allison Miller) begin to fall in love. Green, as creator and executive producer of ?Kings,? makes it even tougher to define the precise genre of the series by introducing touches of sci-fi and fantasy. For instance, the emblem of Gilboa is the orange monarch butterfly, and when a successor to the king is anointed, a swarm of butterflies form a crown around the chosen one?s head. ?King?s? crew has shot a season?s worth of 14 episodes -- the premiere contains two -- in and around New York, studios in Brooklyn?s Greenpoint, and in a Nassau County mansion. With a large cast, opulent palace scenes and shooting in New York, this is an expensive production. Green begged off giving an exact budget figure, but he put the cost of an average prime time TV episode as between $2 million and $4.5 million, with ?Kings? definitely on the high end. Green, 36, is a native New Yorker, with close ties to Israel. His mother, born in Tel Aviv, came to the United States after finishing her army service, met Green?s father, and ?has visited ever since,? Green said, adding, ?Most of my extended family lives in Israel. He is optimistic that ?Kings? will eventually be seen on Israeli and British television, which usually happens after a new series? second or third season in the United States. Green reinforced his boyhood yeshiva studies with a more academic perspective when he took a double major in human biology and religious studies at Stanford University. After college, his interest turned to story writing, rather than religion or biology. ?I once created the character of a doctor in one of my shows," he said, "but never became one myself -- to the disappointment of my parents.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/88e39b14/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Fri Mar 13 12:27:41 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:27:41 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] 'Modern' King David saga hits TV In-Reply-To: <855590370903131013t7feeaccfu13e52c07769e316d@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903131013t7feeaccfu13e52c07769e316d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1139251923-1236965155-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-581943866-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Did NBC not know that I teach on Sunday nights Hanoch. How will they ever get the ratings when the masses are tuned in to my webcast on the weekly torah portion;) Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Hanoch Young Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:13:27 To: UI List Subject: [UILIST] 'Modern' King David saga hits TV _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:28:11 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:28:11 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Dead Sea Scrolls identity theft Message-ID: <855590370903131028m7f5fabe7q74bf79bd62959dcc@mail.gmail.com> This is BIZARRE! Not sure if you saw this recently...I'm a huge fan of Professor Schiffman's, so this caught my eye right away... * Hanoch* From the NY Times: "For decades, the origin of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been intensely debated. The prevailing theory is that these ancient documents, which include texts from the Hebrew Bible, were written over the three centuries before 100 A.D. by a Jewish sect known as the Essenes, who were based in Qumran, a settlement at the northwest shore of the Dead Sea near the caves where the scrolls were found between 1947 and 1956. An alternative theory, passionately proffered by a University of Chicago professor, is that the scrolls? authors were not Essenes, and that the scrolls themselves were kept in various libraries in Jerusalem until they were hidden in the caves around Qumran for safekeeping during the Roman war of A.D. 67 to 73. Qumran, he has said, was not an Essene monastery but a fortress, one of several armed defensive bastions around Jerusalem. The professor, Norman Golb, has stood behind his theory despite significant criticism. His son, Raphael Haim Golb, has been one of his greatest allies. But prosecutors said on Thursday that Raphael Golb took defending his father?s theory too far. Mr. Golb is accused of using stolen identities of various people, including a New York University professor who disagreed with his father, to elevate his father?s theory and besmirch its critics, Robert M. Morgenthau, the Manhattan district attorney, said at a news conference. Mr. Golb, 49, was arrested Thursday morning and charged in Manhattan Criminal Court with identity theft, criminal impersonation and aggravated harassment. He faces up to four years in prison if convicted. Prosecutors said Mr. Golb opened an e-mail account in the name of Lawrence H. Schiffman, the New York University professor who disagreed with Mr. Golb?s father. He sent messages in Professor Schiffman?s name to various people at N.Y.U. and to others involved in the Dead Sea Scrolls debate, fabricating an admission by Professor Schiffman that he had plagiarized some of Professor Golb?s work, Mr. Morgenthau said. Raphael Golb also set up blogs under various names that accused Dr. Schiffman of plagiarism, Mr. Morgenthau said." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/24431ed3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:33:00 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] 'Modern' King David saga hits TV In-Reply-To: <1139251923-1236965155-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-581943866-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <855590370903131013t7feeaccfu13e52c07769e316d@mail.gmail.com> <1139251923-1236965155-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-581943866-@bxe1260.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <855590370903131033h16c200d2td03ba33a9b47c344@mail.gmail.com> You're RIGHT!!! I am going down to Rockefeller Center on Sunday and picket the NBC offices until they agree to change the schedule! They better listen, or maybe I'll throw a brick through their windows! Wow..I hope I still know how to do that.... * Hanoch * On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: > Did NBC not know that I teach on Sunday nights Hanoch. How will they ever > get the ratings when the masses are tuned in to my webcast on the weekly > torah portion;) > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hanoch Young > > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:13:27 > To: UI List > Subject: [UILIST] 'Modern' King David saga hits TV > > > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/a541def5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Mar 13 14:33:56 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:33:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dead Sea Scrolls identity theft In-Reply-To: <855590370903131028m7f5fabe7q74bf79bd62959dcc@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903131028m7f5fabe7q74bf79bd62959dcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B5CDA83-BA5B-480E-B664-D2F9ECB38894@earthlink.net> Yes I have been following this and I have more on my Blog, see jamestabor.com/blog Shabbat Shalom! Sent from my iPhone On Mar 13, 2009, at 1:28 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > This is BIZARRE! Not sure if you saw this recently...I'm a huge fan > of Professor Schiffman's, so this caught my eye right away... > Hanoch > From the NY Times: > "For decades, the origin of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been intensely > debated. > > The prevailing theory is that these ancient documents, which include > texts from the Hebrew Bible, were written over the three centuries > before 100 A.D. by a Jewish sect known as the Essenes, who were > based in Qumran, a settlement at the northwest shore of the Dead Sea > near the caves where the scrolls were found between 1947 and 1956. > > An alternative theory, passionately proffered by a University of > Chicago professor, is that the scrolls? authors were not Essenes, an > d that the scrolls themselves were kept in various libraries in Jeru > salem until they were hidden in the caves around Qumran for safekeep > ing during the Roman war of A.D. 67 to 73. Qumran, he has said, was > not an Essene monastery but a fortress, one of several armed defensi > ve bastions around Jerusalem. > > The professor, Norman Golb, has stood behind his theory despite > significant criticism. His son, Raphael Haim Golb, has been one of > his greatest allies. > > But prosecutors said on Thursday that Raphael Golb took defending > his father?s theory too far. Mr. Golb is accused of using stolen ide > ntities of various people, including a New York University professor > who disagreed with his father, to elevate his father?s theory and b > esmirch its critics, Robert M. Morgenthau, the Manhattan district at > torney, said at a news conference. > > Mr. Golb, 49, was arrested Thursday morning and charged in Manhattan > Criminal Court with identity theft, criminal impersonation and > aggravated harassment. He faces up to four years in prison if > convicted. > > Prosecutors said Mr. Golb opened an e-mail account in the name of > Lawrence H. Schiffman, the New York University professor who > disagreed with Mr. Golb?s father. He sent messages in Professor Schi > ffman?s name to various people at N.Y.U. and to others involved in t > he Dead Sea Scrolls debate, fabricating an admission by Professor Sc > hiffman that he had plagiarized some of Professor Golb?s work, Mr. M > orgenthau said. Raphael Golb also set up blogs under various names t > hat accused Dr. Schiffman of plagiarism, Mr. Morgenthau said." > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/617ffab9/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 13 16:56:06 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:56:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today In-Reply-To: <855590370903121845k478485c1sf2458de676dfac88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031320092156.24271.49BAD676000767D800005ECF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I gotta interject here. There is a popular movement right now, which is supported by the current administration of the United States, that the changing environmental condition of the Earth is a result of human intervention. There is no doubt that environmental conditions on Earth are changing, the popular catch phrase is "Global Warming". Whether that is an accurate description or not remains to be seen. However, the evidence supporting the idea that human beings are causing this change is very sketchy, regardless of what Al Gore says. There is currently no conclusive scientific proof of this idea. Now I don't want to imply that the "green" movement is wrong, there can be no doubt that part of our stewardship of this planet should include minimization of the the use of fossil fuels, they are bad for the local environment. In addition the wisdom of moving away from our dependence on crude oil, especially foreign oil, as a nation is obvious. But there is a serious danger implicit in the idea that human intervention can cause or turn around changes in the global environment. The Earth, a magnificent jewel of G-d's handiwork, on a practical level, is an organic machine. I operates in accordance with natural laws that HaShem has put in place. It's environment is going to change because that is what those laws dictate, it has no choice. The danger is, if the human race focuses all of it's resources in a misguided attempt to stop this change based on the idea that we are causing it, we will not be ready to respond to the changes that are going to happen eventually anyway. The humans alive during the last ice age had no idea that it was coming nor did they presuppose that they were causing it, they simply adapted and survived. As a result, we are here today. We are much more fortunate, we know that the environment is changing and if we accept the fact that there is nothing we can do to stop it, we will be in a much better position to deal with it than our ancestors were. The Earth will do as it's designed to do, regardless of our influence. All we can do is respond to it. I'm not trying to take away from the quote that began this string. It is very true that what we can damage, we can fix. This still applies to our local environments as well as our relationships. But I'm afraid it does not apply to the global environment. We, as a race, better get that through our collective heads or we are gonna be caught with our pants down. IMHO. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- I was just thinking about the concept of 'Tikun Olam' - repairing the world (I was thinking of it literally as well as well as spiritually), and I saw this quote... Hanoch ?If you believe that you can damage, believe you can fix.? - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090313/06b7c545/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Fri Mar 13 23:59:08 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:59:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Thissa Message-ID: <8CB7278BDC6BA49-1528-21A7@WEBMAIL-DF12.sysops.aol.com> For those that have not yet listened to my class last week on Ki Thissa, I wanted to remind you that it is up on my site for download (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/08/ki-thissa.htm). If you have time tomorrow I would encourage you to check it out. There is truly something incredible about following these regular Torah readings. The class is approximately 1 hour. I also typed up a nice sheet for you to print out and use as a guide to the reading with some of my thoughts on the Torah reading. I intend to put this together each week. A few of you have written me expressing your willingness to help in the effort to produce an audio version of the Torah readings each week. Some even sent me their audio files. I still need someone to read some of the aliyot. The ones listed below still need to be read. Reading? Exodus 31:18 - 33:11????? Exodus 33:12 - 33:16?? Exodus 33:17 - 33:23? Exodus 34:10 - 34:26? Exodus 34:27 - 34:35? As you can see I did not get nearly all of it, and part of that is due to the fact that I did not have time to effectively work on this. In order to do this....and I think that we should I need for someone else to take over this task of tracking who is reading what, and assembling the files into an MP3 file for upload on my site. If you are interested and have the technical ability (and a "willing heart" as next week's Torah portion calls it, please write me privately.) I am at the synagogue tonight. It is nearly midnight and I had a tough week. This week some of the local members completed the "green carpet removal". The wooden floor is absolutely beautiful! Outside there is a soft rain falling. The feeling is quite inspiring. I am preparing for my class this Sunday night and have come across some wonderful insights I believe. I pray that your Sabbath is restful and that you take the time from your hectic lives to "Stop" and be refreshed. Read the Torah and listen to the class from last week. Shalom and I hope that you can listen in Sunday night.? Ross -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090314/0d9c9d12/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 19:18:35 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:18:35 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] KI TISA MEDITATIONS - 1 Message-ID: <49BC495B.8020406@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/00023840/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 19:18:46 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:18:46 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] KI TISA MEDITATIONS - 2. Message-ID: <49BC4966.20905@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/224a9b83/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 19:19:14 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:19:14 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] KI TISA MEDITATIONS - 3. Message-ID: <49BC4982.2090008@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/b9b9e12c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 20:45:40 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:45:40 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today] Message-ID: <49BC5DC4.2020304@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/82a14fb0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:56:06 +0000 Size: 12318 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/82a14fb0/attachment.eml From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 14 20:49:09 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All In-Reply-To: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <897637.16395.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93775.60809.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom All, I?want to thank everyone for all of?your heart felt prayers and condolences for the loss of my mother.? Your prayers have been?a strength to me during this time.?My prayer for you is that Hashem will look upon your needs and be gracious to each of you.? Shalom and Blessings, Lynn Osborne ________________________________ From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:49:43 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom All Shalom All, My beloved wife, Lynn,?has diligently and tirelessly?cared for her mother, Gena Dumas,?for the past three years.?Her mother?passed away today at age 80. Your prayers are appreciated. In His Love, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090314/eaade57f/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 21:04:49 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:04:49 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom All] Message-ID: <49BC6241.5020400@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/ff0e27ac/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom All Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Size: 7705 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/ff0e27ac/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 14 21:55:40 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 02:55:40 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today] In-Reply-To: <49BC5DC4.2020304@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <031520090255.10492.49BC6E2C00034286000028FC22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, I honestly thank you for responding to my post, I think that this is how we are supposed to learn from each other. This is the way back. My response is that we are not the race that existed in "biblical times". We have lost the power to affect rhe environment in the capacity that Adam could have. HaShem has seen to that. He said that he will never curse the ground again for our sins. There is no doubt that we, as a race, have an impact on the Earth. But I think that it is far less than what the illusionists want us to believe. My point is that we have got to stop believing what we are told. Yes, we can damage our local environments but we cannot focus our efforts on repairing something we cannot repair. John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shavua Tov John, you said : "The Earth will do as it's designed to do, regardless of our influence. All we can do is respond to it." Whilst I agree with most that you said, I do have my reservations regarding the above written statement. Yes , HaShem did create the Earth and its environment and He definitely did also dictate the laws governing how it operates. He also created man /Adam from the Earth and gave him dominion over the Earth. He also determined the laws of humanity. Because we were created from the Earth we are also responsible for its well being. Our actions and our thoughts have a direct effect on this planet. Note that the effect of the first murder instigated in the Garden of Eden resulted with the blood (life) of Havel crying up from the earth. The result being that the earth under the Garden of Eden spewed Cain into exile . The effect of Israel's sinning resulted in the land also spewing them into exile. In Jeremiah it tells us that the Jews we not keeping the law of smittah or allowing the land to rest. The Roman exile was a result of Sinat Chinam or baseless hatred. The land is cursed and full of thistles and briars. This is in direct focus to the actions of the inhabitants. When the inhabitants do teshuva / return and change their ways ,then the land / earth will yield its fruit and the rains will come at the appointed times. The greatest polluter on this planet is man. What we see in the physical like smog, forest degradation , water salination and many other ills are a direct result of man's greed, covertness, haughtiness and disrespect. All these ills are a blatant disregard and disobedience of HaShem's Torah. When we change our ways as the Tanach preempts, then the world and its environment will return to its original pristine condition. The law will go forth from Zion and with the advent of Mashiach who will teach humanity the laws of Torah, then and only then will every man sit under his fig tree with none to make him afraid. We need to respond to HaShem in obedience and then we will influence the Earth, as preordained by HaShem at creation. I do agree with you John that the world leaders are using this whole scenario as a political tool to advance their agendas. Their motives are far removed from the Torah of HaShem. Their arrogance will lead them even to the point of believing and admitting that they can fix the situation that they caused in the first place with more of the same greed, covertness, haughtiness and disrespect. There is never a mention in the smooth talking razza mataz bellicose speeches of their admittance to repentance to HaShem. HaShem does not even figure at all in the wheeling and dealing. Then again we all evolved from primeval sludge, or so they would want us to believe. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/f81837ca/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Mar 14 22:06:14 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:06:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] ATTENTION - NEW VIRUS. In-Reply-To: <49B99FFE.7010504@westnet.com.au> References: <49B99FFE.7010504@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200903150306.n2F36EAf026167@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Joe, Snopes says that this is a hoax: http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/lifeisbeautiful.asp In any case, one should not open anything sent by an unknown source. Steve At 04:51 PM 3/12/2009, you wrote: >Shalom Chaverim, > >this has just been sent to me. > >Please >Be Extremely Careful >especially if using internet mail such as Yahoo, Hotmail, AOL and so on. > >This information arrived this morning direct from both >Microsoft and Norton. > >Please send it to everybody you know who has access to the Internet. > >You may receive an apparently harmless email with a Power >Point presentation - 'Life is beautiful.' > >If you receive it DO NOT OPEN THE FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES >, and delete it immediately .. > >If you open this file, a message will appear on your >screen saying: 'It is too late now, your life is no longer beautiful.' > >Subsequently you will LOSE EVERYTHING IN YOUR PC and the person who >sent it to you will gain access to your name, e-mail and password. > >This is a new virus which started to circulate on Saturday afternoon. > >AOL has already confirmed the severity, and the >antivirus software's are not capable of destroying it. > >The virus has been created by a hacker who calls himself 'life owner.' > > >PLEASE SEND A COPY OF THIS EMAIL TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS and ask them >to PASS IT ON IMMEDIATELY >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090314/11cd69a8/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Mar 14 23:12:39 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:12:39 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today]] Message-ID: <49BC8037.2060408@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/71ce022b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today] Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 02:55:40 +0000 Size: 12894 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/71ce022b/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 15 03:43:23 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:43:23 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. Message-ID: <49BCBFAB.80004@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/a6c7ab88/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Mar 15 03:46:52 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:46:52 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Enlightenment is not an individual Concern. Message-ID: <49BCC07C.60105@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/208a49b9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: redheifer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/208a49b9/attachment.jpg From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 09:00:20 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:00:20 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Great words to start the week - Message-ID: <855590370903150700g21573c01id77159397cfa1b41@mail.gmail.com> *Let there be light Rav Lazer Brody* [image: http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345263cd69e2011279695c8428a4-pi] Sunday in Hebrew is "yom rishon", or "the first day", since the days of the week in Hebrew are named according to the order of creation. Therefore, Monday is called "the second day", Tuesday "the third day", and so forth. Sunday was the day that The Creator created light, the first of the creations. The Zohar (Jewish esoteric commentary on the Torah, based on the teachings of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai from over 1900 years ago) explains that the first creation corresponds to the first commandment of the ten commandments, namely, "I am the Lord your G-d". As a result, the more a person develops emuna and crowns Hashem as his/her G-d, then the more that person illuminates his/her own soul. Unhappiness and negative emotions are directly proportionate to the level of darkness in one's soul. Conversely, the more a soul receives Divine light, the more one feels happiness and inner peace. When we strengthen our faith, we illuminate our souls - it's that simple. Have a wonderful week! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/7d2f6797/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 09:10:52 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:10:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Where is the Tomb of Mordechai and Esther? Message-ID: <855590370903150710y14cb7b85o88e691276976ca68@mail.gmail.com> March 09, 2009 *Where is the Tomb of Mordechai and Esther?* By Michael Freund 1 Comments E-Mail This Print This RSS Feed [image: image] A few months ago, the normally hostile Iranian regime took the rather unusual step of adding a Jewish holy site to its National Heritage List. On December 9, 2008, Iranian news outlets reported that the tomb of Mordechai and Esther, heroes of the Purim saga, would now be under official government protection and responsibility. The move cast a brief spotlight on the site, which is well-known to Iranian Jews but largely unfamiliar to those outside the country. And with Purim being celebrated this week, it is worth taking a moment to ponder this relic of our ancient past. The mausoleum housing the shrine of Mordechai and Esther consists of a simple brick structure crowned with a dome which was built some five to seven centuries ago over the underground gravesites. It is located in the northwestern Iranian city of Hamadan, which is about 335 kilometers west of the capital, Tehran. According to tradition, Hamadan is believed to be the site of the city of Shushan, which played such a central role in the events described in the Book of Esther. Various travelers down through the ages took note of the site, with the first having been Benjamin of Tudela, the famed 12th century Jewish explorer. Iranian Jews revered the shrine, and many would travel to Hamadan to observe Purim there by reading the Megillah alongside the tomb. Others held family celebrations, such as bar-mitzvahs or circumcisions, at the site. The entrance to the building is said to have been built intentionally low, in order to compel visitors to bow their heads upon entering, thereby engendering a requisite attitude of respect. Inside the main hall, which is adorned with Hebrew inscriptions, lie two large, decorated wooden boxes, or trunks, below which are said to be the final resting places of Mordechai and Esther. A small synagogue adjoins the tomb, and the site is also considered holy by Muslims and Christians, who come to pray there as well. Next to the mausoleum lies a large hollow in the ground, which Iranian Jews believe to be an entrance to a tunnel that stretches all the way to Jerusalem. Interestingly, there is a competing tradition which identifies the traditional burial place of Queen Esther and Mordechai as being on the outskirts of the village of Baram, in the upper Galilee, near Safed. As early as 1215, Rabbi Menachem Ha-Hevroni wrote that while visiting the Galilee, he came across the tomb of Queen Esther, "who, during her lifetime, had instructed her son Cyrus to bring her there [for burial]". Later pilgrims mentioned the site, and noted that special celebrations were held there on Shushan Purim. Currently, the tomb is believed to be located in the ruins of a building found in the Baram National Park. After the area was liberated in Israel's War of Independence, a group of Safed Jews went up to the tomb on Purim in 1949 and read the Megillah there to revive the long-standing custom of previous generations. Hence, we have two conflicting traditions as to where the protagonists of the Purim story are buried, with one placing them in Persia and the other right here in Israel, much closer to home. And while we can not say with any certainty which of the two traditions is more authentic or correct, of one thing we can all be sure: the deeds of these two great Jewish heroes will never fade from our collective memory. As the Megillah (9:28) itself tells us: "and these days of Purim shall not pass from among the Jews, and their memory shall not elapse from among their descendants". --------------------------------- *Michael Freund served as Deputy Communications Director in the Israeli Prime Minister's Office from 1996 to 1999 under former premier Binyamin Netanyahu. He is currently Chairman of Shavei Israel (http://www.shavei.org), a Jerusalem-based group that assists "lost Jews" seeking to return to the Jewish people.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/fb4228e1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 09:18:34 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:18:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Pictures ARE worth 1,000 words... Message-ID: <855590370903150718n5c9fa5a8r2d1bc066bad77615@mail.gmail.com> It always helps me to focus on a picture like the one below; that way I can NEVER forget what we're fighting against... * Hanoch* * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/c76c9458/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 09:34:43 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:34:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Vilified: Telling Lies about Israel" Message-ID: <855590370903150734o372dde5eh4b2683f54048167a@mail.gmail.com> Important 5 minute documentary "Vilified: Telling Lies About Israel * Hanoch* Click here: YouTube - Vilified: Telling Lies About Israel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/2895f33d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 10:07:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:07:59 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "A person's path is always pure in his own eyes, but G-d weighs the soul." Message-ID: <855590370903150807t57ee25edx82d7ca5d3715cc03@mail.gmail.com> ToraLife 9 by HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. *"A person's path is always pure in his own eyes, but G-d weighs the soul." *Proverbs 16:2 Vision is such a precious gift. We all recognize its value and we crave for our vision to be crystal clear. Yet, our scope of understanding vision is rather limited. Indeed, rather than have perfect vision most of us suffer from an acute lack of vision. Not all vision is of the eyes, there is vision that sees the outside world and then there is vision that sees the inside worlds. Vision of the eyes sees only the form of things. Vision of the soul sees the true essence of things. One cannot clearly see the outside truths unless one can first clearly see their inner essence. When one looks out upon the world, one sees only that which one's own vision allows one to see. One does not see things as they are, but only as how one thinks they are. Ultimately, all perceptions are in the mind and of the mind. One may indeed question if any of us has any true perception of anything that has not be tainted and colored by the prisms and prisons of our minds. Skewered vision is a byproduct of the skewered mind. When one sees oneself as the center of the universe then one expects the entire universe to revolve around him/her. A person can thus convince themselves that any evil course is actually right and good. How can one see the world around oneself in the proper way if all that one can see is that everything should revolve around them? This is selfishness. Our universe and all who reside in it are under the Great Guiding Hand of the Creator. Heaven alone is the center of Truth and each of us are merely its orbiting satellites. If we err in our orbits and endanger the orbits of others, Heaven sees. Heaven then takes the necessary steps to protect the others and to ultimately also protect us. If not for the Guiding Hand of Heaven, all of us would collide into one another. Thank G-d that His Higher Hand keeps us safe from harm and from harming others. In our blindness we always think that our ways are right. Yet, G-d weighs the human soul to see if it is carrying its proper weight and is following its proper course. When all is right with a soul, then the soul will be able to bear the burden that is right for it. However, when the soul is found wanting in that it has either shirked its responsibilities or tries to veer from its preordained course, the subtle Higher Hand pushes the wayward soul back into its own proper orbit. When this occurs either the soul accepts the subtle Influence or fights it with vigor. When surrender to Heaven is the soul's chosen course one then finds peace, accomplishment and survival. When one chooses to fight the Hand of G-d one quickly finds out the foolish vanity in such a choice. Peace with Heaven or war against oneself are both in our own hands. Proper vision or distorted living, both are in our own hands. Right and wrong, good and bad can always be interpreted and reinterpreted. One must do more than merely believe that what one is doing is right and good. One must actually be doing what Heaven knows is right and good. To know this requires a vision beyond that of personal human selfishness. How can one see with the eyes of Heaven and thus walk the proper path in this world? Simple; if one wishes to see like Heaven, then one must walk like Heaven. This is the secret of bringing Heaven down to Earth. As Heaven weighs each human soul to judge its proper measure, so too must we do with ourselves. Every day we must make an accounting and ask the hard questions; is what I am doing for the greater service of Heaven or is what I do for my own personal selfish desires? Will what I do be of help or will it be the source of harm? Who is the ultimate center of my universe Heaven or me? Beware! Answers and words can be deceiving! Only true action defines true intent. Only when one arrives at one's destination can we say that one had the clarity of vision to arrive there. Presently, we are all travelers. Where will we end up? This depends upon what path we walk down. One who weighs the soul will gain clarity of vision and walk the right path. One who is already convinced of the rightness of their way and needs to know nothing further is blind and beyond our help. Heaven will have to nudge them. All we can do is pray that the subtle nudge does not have to become a hard push. ------------------------------------------- Shalom, HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/9fbfcf3f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 15 10:31:32 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:31:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. In-Reply-To: <49BCBFAB.80004@westnet.com.au> References: <49BCBFAB.80004@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Reading this article is like witnessing a living nightmare. In my personal life, I became convicted through reading the Prophets, that a time would someday come when the Earth would be turned upside down (spiritually), when evil would be called good and good evil, and this on an unprecedented scale. However, seeing this time come upon us, I can't quite believe it is real. People cannot become utterly devoid of character, emptied of common sense, and wholly deluded in their perception of what it means to have a heart for G-d. Yet that appears to be exactly what we are witnessing. It strikes me that perhaps this time is coming upon us now because it ushers in a necessary polarization. We are actually being forced to break long-standing alliances and form new ones as we wade deeper into this coming darkness. I am remembering how HaShem had his angel put a mark on the foreheads of those who sighed and cried because of the abominations they saw...........because of the foolish words, intentions and acts against the very Wisdom of His Torah, against the very Plan and Heart of Hashem. ................AND THE GLORY OF THE G-D OF YISRAEL HAD ASCENDED FROM THE KERUV, ON WHICH IT WAS, TO THE THRESHOLD OF THE HOUSE. AND HE CALLED TO THE MAN CLOTHED IN LINEN, WHO HAD THE WRITER'S INK WELL BY HIS SIDE: AND THE THE L-RD SAID TO HIM, GO THROUGH THE MIDST OF THE CITY, THROUGH THE MIDST OF YERUSHALAYIM, AND SET A MARK UPON THE FOREHEADS OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND THAT CRY ON ACCOUNT OF ALL THE ABOMINATIONS THAT ARE DONE IN HER MIDST. AND TO THE OTHERS HE SAID IN MY HEARING, GO AFTER HIM THROUGH THE CITY, AND STRIKE: LET NOT YOUR EYE SPARE, NEITHER HAVE PITY: SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAID, AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN: BUT COME NOT NEAR ANY MAN UPON WHOM IS THE MARK: AND BEGIN AT MY SANCTUARY........ Ezekiel 9:3-6 People are being set up to choose whom they will serve, and consequently, with whom they will ally themselves. The words of Joshua echo through time and space: NOW THEREFORE FEAR THE L-RD, AND SERVE HIM IN SINCERITY AND IN TRUTH: AND PUT AWAY THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, AND IN MITZRAYIM: AND SERVE THE L-RD. AND IF IT SEEM EVIL TO YOU TO SERVE THE L-RD, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; WHETHER THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED THAT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, OR THE GODS OF THE EMORI, IN WHOSE LAND YOU DWELL: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE L-RD. Joshua 24:14-15 May we hear (SHEMA!) His Voice guiding us, whether by dreams, visions or His still, small voice inside our heart. ............AND THY EARS SHALL HEAR A WORD BEHIND THEE, SAYING, THIS IS THE WAY, WALK YE IN IT............... Isaiah 30:21 Shalom v'Ahavah, Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:43 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. Shalom Chaverim, if you have been wondering why Australia has been in the world headlines lately, then this could be the answer. Sunday, March 15 Australia's anti- Israel Government. by Andrew Bolt WHY on earth is the Australian (Rudd) Government going to a festival of hate against Israel and the West? Actually, it's not hard to work out why the Government won't join a boycott by other democracies of next month's United Nations bizarre conference on "racism". You see, the Prime Minister (Kevin Rudd) is desperate to win the cheap votes of African and Muslim nations in his bid for a temporary seat at the United Nations Security Council, where we would join great powers such as Burkina Faso, Libya, Costa Rica and Croatia. It is to win this paltry prize that the Rudd Government this week announced it was even sending $10 million in aid to the Zimbabwean regime of Robert Mugabe, who is still a hero in much of Africa. It's why the Government has said it will triple its aid to the rest of a continent wracked with corruption. It's why it is sending Governor-General Quentin Bryce to nine African countries to lobby for UN votes, as if she were a politician or door-to-door shonk. And it's why the Rudd Government has broken with a Howard government policy and voted already for two anti-Israeli motions in the UN. But going next month to the UN's anti-racism conference in Geneva goes beyond such diplomatic grovelling and wheel-greasing. It would be a grotesque betrayal of our principles, an insult to democratic allies and a vote for the enemies of our freedoms. Think I exaggerate? Then read for yourself the draft declaration that has been produced for this conference -- with the help of Australian officials, holding their noses. You will read a tirade that emphasises the sins of the West above those of the rest, suggests restrictions on free speech to save Islam from criticism, and blames colonialism for Third World dysfunction, for which it demands compensation. Only one country is singled out for denunciation -- democratic Israel, which is accused of torture, collective punishment of Muslims, "apartheid" and "crime against humanity". Only one faith is singled out as needing protection from free speech -- Islam, which should not be insulted "through publication of offensive caricatures" or an "association of terrorism and violence", because "a most disturbing phenomenon is the intellectual and ideological validation of Islamophobia". Only one slave trade is singled out for a day of international commemoration and reparations -- that of pre-Civil War America, which must be commemorated by an "International Day of Remembrance of the Victims of Slavery and the Transatlantic Slave Trade". No day is recommended for commemorating those enslaved in Africa, Arabia or the Ottoman Empire. The West is even pilloried for allegedly creating a hatred of Muslims by taking steps to protect itself from, er, the hatred of Muslim terrorists who have slaughtered so many civilians in London, New York, Madrid, Mumbai, Lahore, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Bali, Nairobi and God knows how many other places. "Overt and covert discriminatory counter-terrorism measures . . . have led to the rise of racism," the UN document states, blind to the fact that it is precisely the other way around -- that counter-terrorism is prompted by the fear of being blown up by Islamists with venomous hatred of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Americans, Buddhists and Muslims of the wrong shade of faith. NOTHING is said in this draft about the regimes that in fact sponsor and harbour such terrorists, of course. In fact, you'd never guess from its pages that in recent decades the worst genocides have been in Africa, the most savage terrorism has been launched by Islamists, the worst ethnic cleansings have been in Africa and Asia, and the people most likely to kill for their faith are Muslim. But if you're puzzled at its strident tone, be aware of something so incredible that you'll think I'm joking. This declaration against racism and hatred has been prepared under supervision of a UN "preparatory committee" chaired by Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya, with the help of co-chairs including Pakistan and Iran, and a rapporteur from Fidel Castro's Cuba. I kid you not. Welcome to the modern United Nations of Despots. So what do sane, proud and free people do when faced with such a document and such a hate fest? What do such sane people do, given the UN has priors in this dirty pond, having organised this conference as the follow-up to its infamous 2001 Durban meeting, which even Foreign Minister Stephen Smith admits was "an anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic harangue". Here's what Canada has decided: it's boycotting this Geneva meeting because of the draft declaration's "expressions of intolerance and anti-Semitism". Italy and Israel are boycotting it, too, condemning it as anti-Semitic. The United States also says it won't go to a conference which debates any such form of words: "The document being negotiated has gone from bad to worse, and the current text of the draft outcome document is not salvageable . . . "It must not single out any one country or conflict, nor embrace the troubling concept of defamation of religion". Nor was the US keen to foot a bill for "reparations for slavery", which could see Michigan car workers compensating Michael Jordan. So what is the Rudd Government waiting for? How could it delay a day longer in declaring it will not go, either? Foreign Minister Smith says our officials are still trying to improve the draft declaration, and he'll wait before deciding if it's worth going to Geneva. But it's already as clear as a swastika what the agenda of this meeting is. It's clear that Australia will not succeed in changing it, when even the US failed. And it's clear that the Government's hesitation in making a stand for the West, for our values and for Israel has got nothing to do with whether the document can be "improved". Rather, it has everything to do with the Government's hopes that no one will notice if it quietly joins this UN party of anti-Western and anti-Jewish bile to keep sweet with the Mugabes, Castros, Gaddafis and Ahmadinejads. Or that no one in Africa or the Middle East can accuse it of being among the first to RSVP no. But every day it waits is one more day of complicity. One more day of shame. Our values cannot be so cheaply sold. Or defended with such hesitation. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25177886-5000117,00.html I hang my head in shame as the very ideals of this country have been severely compromised. >From the threatened denouncement of the regime in Teheran to this disgusting show of political expediency. What happened ? The left wing socialist element has turned this place upside down. Our Prime Minister is big on the rhetoric and lacking on the detail. He has gone down the same insane road of economic stimulus packages as your President with our unemployment spiraling out of control as indeed is yours .As early as today Obama was congratulating Rudd. I think that they are pen pals. Italy,my country of birth is the only European country thus far to boycott this conference of shame to my utter surprise. What ??? Can anybody please explain what is going on ? Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/342dbbdd/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Mar 15 10:53:04 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:53:04 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. In-Reply-To: References: <49BCBFAB.80004@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2EC67EB774994756AF4A8F450071D58C@Beeblebrox> Shalom Avigail, Joe and All who are 'sighing and crying', Avigail, I appreciate your insightful commentary (below), and agree with you. Thanks so much for posting it! Also - Joe, I am happy to say that under our PM Stephen Harper, a man of integrity, Canada is also boycotting the conference. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. Hi Joe, Reading this article is like witnessing a living nightmare. In my personal life, I became convicted through reading the Prophets, that a time would someday come when the Earth would be turned upside down (spiritually), when evil would be called good and good evil, and this on an unprecedented scale. However, seeing this time come upon us, I can't quite believe it is real. People cannot become utterly devoid of character, emptied of common sense, and wholly deluded in their perception of what it means to have a heart for G-d. Yet that appears to be exactly what we are witnessing. It strikes me that perhaps this time is coming upon us now because it ushers in a necessary polarization. We are actually being forced to break long-standing alliances and form new ones as we wade deeper into this coming darkness. I am remembering how HaShem had his angel put a mark on the foreheads of those who sighed and cried because of the abominations they saw...........because of the foolish words, intentions and acts against the very Wisdom of His Torah, against the very Plan and Heart of Hashem. ................AND THE GLORY OF THE G-D OF YISRAEL HAD ASCENDED FROM THE KERUV, ON WHICH IT WAS, TO THE THRESHOLD OF THE HOUSE. AND HE CALLED TO THE MAN CLOTHED IN LINEN, WHO HAD THE WRITER'S INK WELL BY HIS SIDE: AND THE THE L-RD SAID TO HIM, GO THROUGH THE MIDST OF THE CITY, THROUGH THE MIDST OF YERUSHALAYIM, AND SET A MARK UPON THE FOREHEADS OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND THAT CRY ON ACCOUNT OF ALL THE ABOMINATIONS THAT ARE DONE IN HER MIDST. AND TO THE OTHERS HE SAID IN MY HEARING, GO AFTER HIM THROUGH THE CITY, AND STRIKE: LET NOT YOUR EYE SPARE, NEITHER HAVE PITY: SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAID, AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN: BUT COME NOT NEAR ANY MAN UPON WHOM IS THE MARK: AND BEGIN AT MY SANCTUARY........ Ezekiel 9:3-6 People are being set up to choose whom they will serve, and consequently, with whom they will ally themselves. The words of Joshua echo through time and space: NOW THEREFORE FEAR THE L-RD, AND SERVE HIM IN SINCERITY AND IN TRUTH: AND PUT AWAY THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, AND IN MITZRAYIM: AND SERVE THE L-RD. AND IF IT SEEM EVIL TO YOU TO SERVE THE L-RD, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; WHETHER THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED THAT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, OR THE GODS OF THE EMORI, IN WHOSE LAND YOU DWELL: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE L-RD. Joshua 24:14-15 May we hear (SHEMA!) His Voice guiding us, whether by dreams, visions or His still, small voice inside our heart. ............AND THY EARS SHALL HEAR A WORD BEHIND THEE, SAYING, THIS IS THE WAY, WALK YE IN IT............... Isaiah 30:21 Shalom v'Ahavah, Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:43 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. Shalom Chaverim, if you have been wondering why Australia has been in the world headlines lately, then this could be the answer. Sunday, March 15 Australia's anti- Israel Government. by Andrew Bolt WHY on earth is the Australian (Rudd) Government going to a festival of hate against Israel and the West? Actually, it's not hard to work out why the Government won't join a boycott by other democracies of next month's United Nations bizarre conference on "racism". You see, the Prime Minister (Kevin Rudd) is desperate to win the cheap votes of African and Muslim nations in his bid for a temporary seat at the United Nations Security Council, where we would join great powers such as Burkina Faso, Libya, Costa Rica and Croatia. It is to win this paltry prize that the Rudd Government this week announced it was even sending $10 million in aid to the Zimbabwean regime of Robert Mugabe, who is still a hero in much of Africa. It's why the Government has said it will triple its aid to the rest of a continent wracked with corruption. It's why it is sending Governor-General Quentin Bryce to nine African countries to lobby for UN votes, as if she were a politician or door-to-door shonk. And it's why the Rudd Government has broken with a Howard government policy and voted already for two anti-Israeli motions in the UN. But going next month to the UN's anti-racism conference in Geneva goes beyond such diplomatic grovelling and wheel-greasing. It would be a grotesque betrayal of our principles, an insult to democratic allies and a vote for the enemies of our freedoms. Think I exaggerate? Then read for yourself the draft declaration that has been produced for this conference -- with the help of Australian officials, holding their noses. You will read a tirade that emphasises the sins of the West above those of the rest, suggests restrictions on free speech to save Islam from criticism, and blames colonialism for Third World dysfunction, for which it demands compensation. Only one country is singled out for denunciation -- democratic Israel, which is accused of torture, collective punishment of Muslims, "apartheid" and "crime against humanity". Only one faith is singled out as needing protection from free speech -- Islam, which should not be insulted "through publication of offensive caricatures" or an "association of terrorism and violence", because "a most disturbing phenomenon is the intellectual and ideological validation of Islamophobia". Only one slave trade is singled out for a day of international commemoration and reparations -- that of pre-Civil War America, which must be commemorated by an "International Day of Remembrance of the Victims of Slavery and the Transatlantic Slave Trade". No day is recommended for commemorating those enslaved in Africa, Arabia or the Ottoman Empire. The West is even pilloried for allegedly creating a hatred of Muslims by taking steps to protect itself from, er, the hatred of Muslim terrorists who have slaughtered so many civilians in London, New York, Madrid, Mumbai, Lahore, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Bali, Nairobi and God knows how many other places. "Overt and covert discriminatory counter-terrorism measures . . . have led to the rise of racism," the UN document states, blind to the fact that it is precisely the other way around -- that counter-terrorism is prompted by the fear of being blown up by Islamists with venomous hatred of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Americans, Buddhists and Muslims of the wrong shade of faith. NOTHING is said in this draft about the regimes that in fact sponsor and harbour such terrorists, of course. In fact, you'd never guess from its pages that in recent decades the worst genocides have been in Africa, the most savage terrorism has been launched by Islamists, the worst ethnic cleansings have been in Africa and Asia, and the people most likely to kill for their faith are Muslim. But if you're puzzled at its strident tone, be aware of something so incredible that you'll think I'm joking. This declaration against racism and hatred has been prepared under supervision of a UN "preparatory committee" chaired by Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya, with the help of co-chairs including Pakistan and Iran, and a rapporteur from Fidel Castro's Cuba. I kid you not. Welcome to the modern United Nations of Despots. So what do sane, proud and free people do when faced with such a document and such a hate fest? What do such sane people do, given the UN has priors in this dirty pond, having organised this conference as the follow-up to its infamous 2001 Durban meeting, which even Foreign Minister Stephen Smith admits was "an anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic harangue". Here's what Canada has decided: it's boycotting this Geneva meeting because of the draft declaration's "expressions of intolerance and anti-Semitism". Italy and Israel are boycotting it, too, condemning it as anti-Semitic. The United States also says it won't go to a conference which debates any such form of words: "The document being negotiated has gone from bad to worse, and the current text of the draft outcome document is not salvageable . . . "It must not single out any one country or conflict, nor embrace the troubling concept of defamation of religion". Nor was the US keen to foot a bill for "reparations for slavery", which could see Michigan car workers compensating Michael Jordan. So what is the Rudd Government waiting for? How could it delay a day longer in declaring it will not go, either? Foreign Minister Smith says our officials are still trying to improve the draft declaration, and he'll wait before deciding if it's worth going to Geneva. But it's already as clear as a swastika what the agenda of this meeting is. It's clear that Australia will not succeed in changing it, when even the US failed. And it's clear that the Government's hesitation in making a stand for the West, for our values and for Israel has got nothing to do with whether the document can be "improved". Rather, it has everything to do with the Government's hopes that no one will notice if it quietly joins this UN party of anti-Western and anti-Jewish bile to keep sweet with the Mugabes, Castros, Gaddafis and Ahmadinejads. Or that no one in Africa or the Middle East can accuse it of being among the first to RSVP no. But every day it waits is one more day of complicity. One more day of shame. Our values cannot be so cheaply sold. Or defended with such hesitation. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25177886-5000117,00.html I hang my head in shame as the very ideals of this country have been severely compromised. From the threatened denouncement of the regime in Teheran to this disgusting show of political expediency. What happened ? The left wing socialist element has turned this place upside down. Our Prime Minister is big on the rhetoric and lacking on the detail. He has gone down the same insane road of economic stimulus packages as your President with our unemployment spiraling out of control as indeed is yours .As early as today Obama was congratulating Rudd. I think that they are pen pals. Italy,my country of birth is the only European country thus far to boycott this conference of shame to my utter surprise. What ??? Can anybody please explain what is going on ? Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/7c31452a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 11:13:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:13:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Jew Hatred and Fear Message-ID: <855590370903150913k640ef7f8s2bc9ae07630e33ae@mail.gmail.com> I'm posting this, more for ME to keep reading it, then anyone else.... * Hanoch* Blog by Yishai and Malkah The New Age of Zionism Has Begun! Adar 19, 5769, 3/15/2009 Generation Z Yishai and Malkah Fleisher are Zionists, activists and turned-on Jews. They met at Cardozo Law School in Manhattan as students, got engaged, and flew to Israel to get married in Hebron. Malkah is originally from Sherman, Texas and is a graduate of George Washington University with a degree in Political Communication. She hosts a variety of shows at Arutz Sheva's Israel National Radio, including the Eishet Chayil Show . Yishai was an IDF paratrooper and studied Poli-Sci at Yeshiva University. At YU, Yishai founded Kumah , a grassroots organization dedicated to encouraging American Aliyah. His writing and Zionist efforts landed him a job at Arutz Sheva's Israel National Radio. Today he hosts the "Yishai and Friends"show and is the Program Manager of the station. Jew Hatred and Fear *Shalom Yishai,* Sorry I haven't written in a while as I was busy studying for my actuary exam. Which I failed twice. I am going to give it one last change on May 21... *Yishai: I know you, and I know how smart you are. So your failure in this test can only mean one of two things: 1. This is not the career that Hashem has in mind for you - He may want you to be a great Rabbi, a great teacher, or a high-tech entrepreneur. Sometimes, when things don't go easily it is a sign that you need not push on this door. On the other hand, the common saying is 'if at first you don't succeed, try try again' and also 'three times a charm.' I wish you much success, but pray that Hashem will take you on a good direction - I think He is sending you a sign of some kind.* The only time I can really listen to you is when my real estate appraisal job is busy which it has been lately...I still really enjoy your show and get tremendous inspiration (and information)..but I must say stick to your old plan of encouraging Aliya because it is the right thing to do. At least in America, I have not felt or heard anyone talk about the slightest uptick in Jew hatred (notice I am not calling it Anti-Semitism), not to say that couldn't change on a dime. But the economy seems to be tanking and the Jews are suffering with the rest of them, but thank G-d Jew directed hatred hasn't changed. You seem to be trying to scare Americans into making aliyah "or else" the baddies will come get you. Stick to the positive message of choosing to move. *Yishai: I have been speaking of the positive reasons for making Aliyah for the last 10 years and I will always continue to do so. This is because the light of Israel is no propaganda tool. Living in in the Land of Israel is a great privilege, while building the State of Israel is the greatest project of the Jewish people in 2000 years. I have also refrained from talking about Israel-Jew-Hate for the last many years because I firmly believed that it was not palpable to most American Jews, and not even to most Jews of the Western Diaspora. However, things have changed, and Jew-hate has factually risen throughout the whole world including America. Talking about the rising levels of Jew-hate as a reason for Aliyah is not a propaganda tool or a PR tactic - it is simply a reality. Believe me, I wish it weren't so, and that all Jews would come home because they too would see the light and choose to be close to G-d. But the way it has always worked for the Jews is simple: either by hook or by crook - either the Jews choose Israel because of a higher vision, or the Jew-haters will boot them out. As a commentator and a broadcaster it is my duty to warn of the dangers and the shifts in society. I will continue to talk-up the light of Israel, but a dark cloud looms and I will keep calling them as I see them.* On a personal note, I feel as though aliyah is further and further away from me as being an actuary looks like it may not happen. I am stuck. NBN says not to change careers and move to a new country at the same time as that is a recipe for disaster (besides my wife would never go for that, she needs me to at least have a plan of how I will provide for her). So the plan is to get a job here that I could support a family with over there first, then make aliyah. Good luck finding that... I would love to work in media and do what I can to push our shared agendas. But I have no resume, no formal training, no education for anything of that sort. I get very frustrated hearing you say all I have to do is log on to ELAL with my credit card and fly to the land of milk and honey and all my problems will go away. You make it sound so easy...One of my best friends just moved back with his wife and 3 kids from Tiberius to Fair Lawn after having moved there in 2004 ( though he never was a the Zionist type), but still no one wants to move 9000 miles with three young kids.. Not to mention all the Israeli's coming to my shul looking for handouts.... *Yishai: Faith and stubbornness, patience and prayer - these are your weapons. The Land of Israel is acquired through hardships but they are surmountable. Yes, there are yordim (people who leave Israel) and people who do not make it and I am sure they do their best to discredit the Big Project - but... there are almost 6 million Jews here, immigrants, Israelis, and the rest, who are eeking out a living and making it. It is not a fairy tale, but it is living the dream. When I talk about logging on to ELAL with your credit card and flying to the land of milk and honey I am talking about the ease with which you can break out of the slavery of the Exile in your mind. Bottom line is that you know that Israel is home - you want to live a full Jewish life with proper Shabbat, holidays, and Jewish education that is affordable and on a high level - you want to be close to Jerusalem! * *You will make it here in the Land because you want it more than anything, because you will not leave this place no matter what, because America is not an option, because you are madly madly in love with this thing called Yiddishkyte, Torah, Hashem, EretzYisrael, and Mashiach. Clearly, the dark forces are trying to stop you from coming here - you have a high soul and you will make Hashem very happy when you bring your family Home to Him. You will find a sustenance, because He Who makes money is the Ultimate Provider. Simply put - don't be afraid, don't be afraid, don't be afraid! You may not have an immediate job waiting for you in Israel - but you certainly have a mission...* *Keep up the good work and regards to your wife, Y* *Yishai: All the blessings on you dear brother. I am looking forward to seeing you get off the plane and greeting you with a big hug. I pray that day will come soon.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/63f21e70/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 11:22:43 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:22:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Divided by a Common Bible Message-ID: <855590370903150922h4864fb59i1d87d18e1301ebb4@mail.gmail.com> An interesting read... * Hanoch* *Divided by a Common Bible* Adar 19, 5769, 15 March 09 09:51 by by Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple (IsraelNN.com) *Address to the NSW Council of Christians and Jews, 12 February, 2009.* During his presidential campaign, John McCain made constant reference to "Judeo-Christian values". Very impressive, but there is no such thing. The so-called Judeo-Christian tradition does not reflect reality (Arthur A. Cohen, *The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition*, New York, 1970 edition). Though Jews and Christians often use the same words, these are frequently loaded terms which say quite different things. Like the Mad Hatter in *Alice in Wonderland*, we all mean our words in our own way. Four premises underpin the idea of a Jewish-Christian heritage, that we share: a belief in one God; a reverence for the Hebrew Scriptures; a set of ethical principles; and a sense of optimism for the future of mankind. Each premise needs to be assessed on its own. Our agenda today is the idea that we have the Bible in common. But first we have to ask why it is this particular point in history when the idea of a common heritage has become second nature. It is partly because we are no longer enemies and partly because we face common enemies. On the defensive against shared challenges, we cannot afford to be on the offensive against one another. All our instincts of decency yearn to speak of each other as brothers, though we are not without unfinished business. A leading example: the motives and actions of the wartime Pope. You might think this is an issue involving only one section of the Christian world, the Roman Catholic Church, whose leader in the 1940s lacked the prophetic courage to stand up and speak out boldly and bravely, and may even, God forbid, have been secretly pleased that Judaism was under attack. Pius XII did something to save some Jews, but Francois Mauriac, a great Catholic writer, has said, "We did not have the consolation of seeing the successor of the Galilean Simon Peter unequivocally and clearly, and not with diplomatic illusions, condemning the crucifixion of these innumerable 'brothers of the Lord'." This is of course the theme of Hochhuth's play, *The Deputy*. It was not only Catholics, but all Christians who in those years (with honourable exceptions) often lacked nerve and conscience, speaking of love but unable or unwilling to put theory to the test. When some churches welcomed the Nazis, they may have been trying to save their lives but they jeopardised their souls. Franklin H. Littell adjudges them guilty not of heresy, but of apostasy, and says they had ceased being Christians ("Christians and Jews in the Historical Process", *Judaism*, vol. 22, no. 3, 1973, pp. 273-4). Unfortunately, the lack of moral courage and prophetic outrage has often accompanied the careers of religious leaders (and I wish I could say Jews are an exception). Jews and Christians are supposed to have a common Bible. If they did, then they would know that one God judges us all. They would acknowledge that the Creator expects His creatures to love one another (Leviticus 19:18) and not to stand by a neighbour's blood (Leviticus 19:16). But these creatures are often too busy denying others the right to think and live in their own way, even the right to be. Not that this was an invention of the modern world. There was more than ample precedent in the centuries before. A few brave spirits felt the other's pain, which was also God's pain and the Bible's pain. One God, one humanity, one Bible? A dream. The reality was closer to a nightmare. Sir Winston Churchill said, "The British and the Americans are one people divided by a common language." Adapting his words, we might say, "The Jews and the Christians are two faith communities divided by a common Bible." The problem begins with the word "Bible" itself. We both use the word in our own way. The Jews have the *Tanach*; the Christians have the Old and New Testaments, with an accent on the New. The terms "Old" and "New" Testament are also a problem because they seem to denigrate the Old and elevate the New. However, the terminology has become so enshrined in Biblical discourse that the only alternative is the bland terms, "Jewish and Christian scriptures", but even this option has its problems. The Jewish scriptures are part of Christian scriptures, whilst the Christian scriptures have no place in Judaism. Jews claim ownership of the *Tanach*, whilst at least some Christians appear to think that those parts of *Tanach* which appeal to them, such as the Psalms, are theirs to deal with or amend as they desire: witness the New Zealand Anglican Church's attempt in 1988 to cleanse the Psalter of most of its references to Zion and Israel. For Christians the New Testament is indispensable and the final word of truth. For Jews it is irrelevant; and the only Jews who find it of interest are the academics. Most Jews know only how much they have suffered because of the Christian scriptures. Whenever it has been suggested that Jews study the New Testament there has been immense controversy. An example is a course on the Gospels for senior pupils at the Hampstead Synagogue, London, in the 1920s, abandoned after Jewish protest meetings in many parts of the United Kingdom (Raymond Apple, *The Hampstead Synagogue 1892-1967*, London, 1967, chapter 7). Hence, the idea that the two faiths are divided by a common Bible does not concern the New Testament but the Old. In theory, the *Tanach* and Old Testament appear to be the same and to have the same content, if for the moment we discount the issue of the Apocrypha and the order of the Biblical books and the numbering of their chapters. They look like the same book, but they are two separate books. For Jews the *Tanach* is the foundation document of Jewish history and teaching, both the thought and the ought. For Christians the Old Testament is the lead-up to the New, establishing concepts of spiritual leadership that foreshadowed Jesus. When Christians (if for my present purpose I may view Christianity as a monolith) find passages about the priest, the prophet, the ruler, the messiah, the sage, they read them in relation to Jesus. Moses, Elijah and David become part of Christian history. Jews, of course, reject this line of interpretation, though Christians do not accept the presuppositions that underlie Jewish exegesis. Yet, we must acknowledge, understand and appreciate the constant rethinking about the status of the Jewish scriptures that has gone on through the centuries of Christian history, proceeding through a series of typologies that is presumably far from closed. To assist in delineating the typologies, I propose to utilise an issue of *SIDIC*, a Catholic periodical formerly issued from Rome in a number of languages. I know that *SIDIC* did not necessarily reflect non-Catholic thinking (and even some Catholic groups disagreed with it from time to time), but its contribution was highly important for Christianity as a whole even if it had a Catholic slant. Its sponsoring body was Service International de Documentation Judeo-Chretienne, founded in 1965 in the wake of *Nostra Aetate*. The *SIDIC* issue to which I want to make reference is Volume 21, No. 3 (1988), headed "Problems of Typology: Reading the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures". In the first paper in this issue, Rev. Francesco Rossi de Gasperis, S.J., distinguishes between a typology of discontinuity in which "the glory of the Lord has changed camps" and the Old Testament has lost validity to the New, and a typology of continuity whereby one may "listen to the harmonies of God" in both Testaments. There follows a more detailed analysis by Rev. Carmine Di Santo, who presents three models and draws from them a fourth. I want to summarise his material and then propose a fifth model for consideration by my Christian partners in dialogue. The following are Di Santo's models: 1. The dualistic model - rejection of the Old Testament. Associated with the name of Marcion (85-160 C.E.), its tenet was that "the 'new' of the Christian Scriptures cancelled out the 'old' of the Jewish Scriptures". Though condemned by the Church, it led to many "stereotyped judgments on the Old Testament". Littell speaks of "a Christianity purged of its essential Jewishness" (*loc. Cit.*, pp. 263-4). 2. The allegorical model - spiritualisation of the Old Testament. Pioneered by Clement (Pope from circa 88-97 CE) and particularly Origen (circa 185-254 CE), it accepts the Old Testament in its entirety but reads it as allegory. This theory is also a form of rejection "conditioned by Greco-Hellenistic dualism" and it has the effect of "emptying the Christian faith of its historical dimension". 3. The anthological model - the use of the Old Testament as a tool. This sees the Old Testament as an anthology from which can be selected "passages which are... more universally valid or more readily interpreted christologically", but its selectivity carries "the risk of a loss of meaning and impoverishment". These are models from the past; the author's own contribution is what now follows. 4. The incarnational model - the Old Testament as structure. Here the Old Testament enshrines affirmations of permanent value to all humanity; the New Testament "neither adds to nor modifies (it) but incarnates it... (It) is neither rejected nor emptied of meaning but... 'lived'", and there is "an essential reciprocity between the Old Testament and the New, each enlightening and being enlightened by the other". The first three models are not necessarily chronological; some or all are found at the same time. Nonetheless, taken in Di Santo's order and enriched by his own contribution, they show a gradual maturation in thinking, allowing the Christian increasingly to come to terms with the *Tanach*, though it is still the Old Testament and not the *Tanach*. Hence my fifth model, which fits the more sophisticated world of inter-faith dialogue. It might be called "the dialogue model" - the Hebrew Scriptures as both Old Testament and *Tanach*. It says: 1. Neither faith can deny the Hebrew Scriptures to the other. 2. Neither faith can pick and choose in dealing with the classical text or challenge its integrity. When *Hamlet* was translated into Yiddish, the title page said, *"*Hamlet*, von Villiam Shakespeare - Verteitcht und Verbessert"* - "*Hamlet*, by William Shakespeare, Translated and Improved". I would argue that no-one has the right to *verbesser* the contents of the * Tanach* or any classical work. 3. Every passage cries out, as the Jewish sages put it, *darsheni* - "expound me!" Jews are certain that their own interpretation is more valid and authentic, but Christians discover different messages in the text. Their exegetical research goes beyond so-called christological passages and their wider Biblical research does not lack potential interest to Jews. 4. The *Tanach* is the saga and sancta of a living, breathing, believing Jewish people, the varied story of that people's encounter with God, the textbook of the Divine will and the "thought" and "ought" of Judaism, the source and inspiration for a destiny intertwined with a land. 5. The Christian world must acknowledge that Jesus was a Jew brought up on what was later known as the *Tanach*. Without his Jewish origins and milieu there is no Jesus. Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, "I don't think it is Christian to want to get to the New Testament too soon and too directly." (*Prisoner for God: Letters and Papers from Prison*, New York, 1957, p. 79) 6. The *Tanach* must be read in accordance with Hebrew linguistics and not be rewritten by Christians in their own image. When, for example, Psalm 2:12 says *nash'ku bar*, Christians should not automatically accept the impossible translation, "Kiss the son". 7. Both Jews and Christians must recognise that the other tends to interpret certain passages in a way that both faiths will not and can not share. Whatever the fashions in technical, academic Old Testament scholarship, Jews and Christians must ask how the text speaks to us today. The messages they perceive are bound to differ. But each in their own way, let them echo what the Hebrew prayer book says of the *Tanach*, that "it is our life and the length of our days" (based on Deuteronomy 30:20). The dialogue movement has brought us closer together than for many centuries. We sit together, we stand together. We speak together, we laugh together, we cry together. Nonetheless, we still find the other rather strange. Sometimes we rejoice at how well we understand each other; at other times we fret at how incomprehensible we are one to the other. We are quite certain that nobody could be as right as our own tradition is. Speaking as a Jew, I know that some Christians regard the separateness and survival of the Jewish people as one of the sheer mysteries of God. Some are sufficiently worried as to deem it a theological scandal. Others, hopefully, will rejoice that it is a manifestation of Divine grace. Jews tend to take a more pragmatic view. "Theorise and agonise if you must," they say, "but the fact is that we are both here and have no intention of changing horses or fading away. Let, then, each of us say: 'Brother, I greet you well. I rejoice that you are here. I recognise your identity as you recognise mine. As to who is right, that's a question for God. The end of days will offer its answer.'" Our dialogue today is part of the discussion. Two faith communities divided by a common Bible? True. But though we are separate, the really important task is for us to hear that Bible's message of morality, whatever the different nuances we bring to its exposition, and to be united by mutual respect. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/45ca5d56/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:09:21 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:09:21 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Castrated Jews Message-ID: <855590370903151309m370ea9deu1ba2d7d25e3c8e40@mail.gmail.com> Although this is directed toward my co-religionists, I thought everyone could learn from it (and understand why I appreciate it so much!) * Hanoch* Blog by Tzvi Fishman Adar 19, 5769, 3/15/2009 Castrated Jews Today?s blog, and the next few which shall follow, are only for Diaspora Jews who truly want to know what Judaism is really all about. If you really want to know what it is to be a Jew, and who we are as a People, then read on. If you really want to know what our mission is as G-d?s chosen People, then take the time to understand the Haftora we read on Shabbat. *There's more to Judaism than bagels * As we have written on several occasions, Judaism is more than eating bagels and keeping the Sabbath. Judaism is not a private, individual religious practice, like other religions. Judaism is the national constitution of the Nation of Israel. The Torah is filled not only with private commandments, such as which foods we can eat, and what actions are forbidden on Shabbat, but also with national commandments about conquering the Land of Israel, establishing a State, a Sanhedrin, a Jewish army, a Divine legal system and economy, as well as the laws of national worship, centered around Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Only in the Land of Israel can the Jewish People fulfill its Divine mission of ?From Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem.? Any child can readily understand that in order to have your own nation, you have to have your own land. For example, you can?t have the country of France in America or New Zealand. Likewise, to be true to our national Jewish essence, G-d has given us our own Land, the Land of Israel. The Torah, and the national essence of the Jewish People, can only be fully realized in the Land of Israel. In the exile, we are castrated Jews with a castrated Torah. Only in the Land of Israel, can the Jewish People and the Torah be complete. The Haftorah, from the Book of Ezekiel, which we read on Shabbat, speaks about the terrible Chilul Hashem of the exile. Chilul Hashem means the Desecration of G-d. It is something that brings great dishonor to G-d. For instance, when a Jew is caught stealing billions of dollars, because he is a Jew, the international headlines create a grave Desecration of G-d, since everyone knows that we are His People. Simply put, it makes G-d of the Jewish People look bad. So too, on a national level, when the Jewish People live in foreign lands amongst the gentiles, this causes a terrible Desecration of G-d, because the gentiles say, ?Look at all the Jews here. G-d gave them the Land of Israel, but He was powerless to keep them there, so we were able to conquer their land and scatter them all over the globe.? Other gentiles say, ?Look at the Jews here in America (Australia, England, France?.). G-d gave them their own land, but they prefer ours!? This shameful situation brings great dishonor to G-d. This is what the Prophet Ezekiel declares about the exiled Jews: ?And when they came to the foreign nations into which they came, they profaned My Holy Name, in that people said of them, ?These are the people of the L-rd, and they are gone out of His Land?? (Ezekiel, 36:20). This means that just the fact that Jews are living in foreign lands is a Chilul Hashem, a terrible dishonor to G-d. Now the time comes when G-d puts an end to this disgrace and sanctifies His Name: ?And I will sanctify My great Name, which was desecrated amongst the nations, which you have profaned in the midst of them, and the nations shall know that I am the L-rd, says the L-rd G-d, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes? (Ezekiel, 36:23). How does G-d brings this sanctification about? Read on: ?For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all countries, and I will bring you into your own Land? (Ezekiel, 36:24). Thus, the Prophet teaches that, as opposed to Jewish life in the Diaspora which brings disgrace upon the Jewish People and G-d, the ingathering of the exiles to the Land of Israel sanctifies G-d and elevates His honor in the eyes of the world. *Holy Site - Arrival Terminal in Israel * Now that you understand the difference, I ask you the simple question: Do you want to be a part of the disgrace, or a part of the great sanctification? Do you want to be a castrated Jew, or a whole Jew? The choice is yours. Hollywood to the Holy Land by Tzvi Fishman Tzvi Fishman was awarded the Israel Ministry of Education Prize for Jewish Creativity and Culture Me Before making Aliyah to Israel in 1984, Tzvi Fishman was a successful Hollywood screenwriter. He has co-authored 4 books with Rabbi David Samson, based on the teachings of Rabbis A. Y. Kook and T. Y. Kook. His other books include: *The Kuzari For Young Readers* and *Tuvia in the Promised Land*. His most recent book, *Secret of the Brit*, can be found at *JewishSexuality.com *, along with an abbreviated online version. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/eb3d7c71/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:19:43 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:19:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CODY!!!! Message-ID: Wishing you the very best and happiest day ever, Cody!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!! Love, Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/d06637c8/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 15 16:13:39 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:13:39 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CODY!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <031520092113.3442.49BD6F83000596D400000D7222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Happy Birthday Cody! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patricia Robbins" : -------------- Wishing you the very best and happiest day ever, Cody!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!! Love, Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/4a0a33b6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 15 16:35:26 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:35:26 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Quote for today]] In-Reply-To: <49BC8037.2060408@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <031520092135.9148.49BD749E000B3692000023BC22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein Joe, Repairing ourselves if definirely the priority. Shalom v'Ahavah to to and yours as well. Shavua Tov. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Amen John, as Hanoch said in the original post, the tikun olam is both literal and spiritual. The most important thing that we need first repair is ourselves. That is definitely up to us and not only our responsibility but within our means to repair. Shalom v'Ahavah to you and Carin JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/6d6610c9/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 15 22:17:50 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:17:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Divided by a Common Bible In-Reply-To: <855590370903150922h4864fb59i1d87d18e1301ebb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031620090317.3945.49BDC4DD0005584800000F6922243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amen. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- An interesting read... Hanoch Divided by a Common Bible Adar 19, 5769, 15 March 09 09:51by by Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple (IsraelNN.com) Address to the NSW Council of Christians and Jews, 12 February, 2009. During his presidential campaign, John McCain made constant reference to "Judeo-Christian values". Very impressive, but there is no such thing. The so-called Judeo-Christian tradition does not reflect reality (Arthur A. Cohen, The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition, New York, 1970 edition). Though Jews and Christians often use the same words, these are frequently loaded terms which say quite different things. Like the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland, we all mean our words in our own way. Four premises underpin the idea of a Jewish-Christian heritage, that we share: a belief in one God; a reverence for the Hebrew Scriptures; a set of ethical principles; and a sense of optimism for the future of mankind. Each premise needs to be assessed on its own. Our agenda today is the idea that we have the Bible in common. But first we have to ask why it is this particular point in history when the idea of a common heritage has become second nature. It is partly because we are no longer enemies and partly because we face common enemies. On the defensive against shared challenges, we cannot afford to be on the offensive against one another. All our instincts of decency yearn to speak of each other as brothers, though we are not without unfinished business. A leading example: the motives and actions of the wartime Pope. You might think this is an issue involving only one section of the Christian world, the Roman Catholic Church, whose leader in the 1940s lacked the prophetic courage to stand up and speak out boldly and bravely, and may even, God forbid, have been secretly pleased that Judaism was under attack. Pius XII did something to save some Jews, but Francois Mauriac, a great Catholic writer, has said, "We did not have the consolation of seeing the successor of the Galilean Simon Peter unequivocally and clearly, and not with diplomatic illusions, condemning the crucifixion of these innumerable 'brothers of the Lord'." This is of course the theme of Hochhuth's play, The Deputy. It was not only Catholics, but all Christians who in those years (with honourable exceptions) often lacked nerve and conscience, speaking of love but unable or unwilling to put theory to the test. When some churches welcomed the Nazis, they may have been trying to save their lives but they jeopardised their souls. Franklin H. Littell adjudges them guilty not of heresy, but of apostasy, and says they had ceased being Christians ("Christians and Jews in the Historical Process", Judaism, vol. 22, no. 3, 1973, pp. 273-4). Unfortunately, the lack of moral courage and prophetic outrage has often accompanied the careers of religious leaders (and I wish I could say Jews are an exception). Jews and Christians are supposed to have a common Bible. If they did, then they would know that one God judges us all. They would acknowledge that the Creator expects His creatures to love one another (Leviticus 19:18) and not to stand by a neighbour's blood (Leviticus 19:16). But these creatures are often too busy denying others the right to think and live in their own way, even the right to be. Not that this was an invention of the modern world. There was more than ample precedent in the centuries before. A few brave spirits felt the other's pain, which was also God's pain and the Bible's pain. One God, one humanity, one Bible? A dream. The reality was closer to a nightmare. Sir Winston Churchill said, "The British and the Americans are one people divided by a common language." Adapting his words, we might say, "The Jews and the Christians are two faith communities divided by a common Bible." The problem begins with the word "Bible" itself. We both use the word in our own way. The Jews have the Tanach; the Christians have the Old and New Testaments, with an accent on the New. The terms "Old" and "New" Testament are also a problem because they seem to denigrate the Old and elevate the New. However, the terminology has become so enshrined in Biblical discourse that the only alternative is the bland terms, "Jewish and Christian scriptures", but even this option has its problems. The Jewish scriptures are part of Christian scriptures, whilst the Christian scriptures have no place in Judaism. Jews claim ownership of the Tanach, whilst at least some Christians appear to think that those parts of Tanach which appeal to them, such as the Psalms, are theirs to deal with or amend as they desire: witness the New Zealand Anglican Church's attempt in 1988 to cleanse the Psalter of most of its references to Zion and Israel. For Christians the New Testament is indispensable and the final word of truth. For Jews it is irrelevant; and the only Jews who find it of interest are the academics. Most Jews know only how much they have suffered because of the Christian scriptures. Whenever it has been suggested that Jews study the New Testament there has been immense controversy. An example is a course on the Gospels for senior pupils at the Hampstead Synagogue, London, in the 1920s, abandoned after Jewish protest meetings in many parts of the United Kingdom (Raymond Apple, The Hampstead Synagogue 1892-1967, London, 1967, chapter 7). Hence, the idea that the two faiths are divided by a common Bible does not concern the New Testament but the Old. In theory, the Tanach and Old Testament appear to be the same and to have the same content, if for the moment we discount the issue of the Apocrypha and the order of the Biblical books and the numbering of their chapters. They look like the same book, but they are two separate books. For Jews the Tanach is the foundation document of Jewish history and teaching, both the thought and the ought. For Christians the Old Testament is the lead-up to the New, establishing concepts of spiritual leadership that foreshadowed Jesus. When Christians (if for my present purpose I may view Christianity as a monolith) find passages about the priest, the prophet, the ruler, the messiah, the sage, they read them in relation to Jesus. Moses, Elijah and David become part of Christian history. Jews, of course, reject this line of interpretation, though Christians do not accept the presuppositions that underlie Jewish exegesis. Yet, we must acknowledge, understand and appreciate the constant rethinking about the status of the Jewish scriptures that has gone on through the centuries of Christian history, proceeding through a series of typologies that is presumably far from closed. To assist in delineating the typologies, I propose to utilise an issue of SIDIC, a Catholic periodical formerly issued from Rome in a number of languages. I know that SIDIC did not necessarily reflect non-Catholic thinking (and even some Catholic groups disagreed with it from time to time), but its contribution was highly important for Christianity as a whole even if it had a Catholic slant. Its sponsoring body was Service International de Documentation Judeo-Chretienne, founded in 1965 in the wake of Nostra Aetate. The SIDIC issue to which I want to make reference is Volume 21, No. 3 (1988), headed "Problems of Typology: Reading the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures". In the first paper in this issue, Rev. Francesco Rossi de Gasperis, S.J., distinguishes between a typology of discontinuity in which "the glory of the Lord has changed camps" and the Old Testament has lost validity to the New, and a typology of continuity whereby one may "listen to the harmonies of God" in both Testaments. There follows a more detailed analysis by Rev. Carmine Di Santo, who presents three models and draws from them a fourth. I want to summarise his material and then propose a fifth model for consideration by my Christian partners in dialogue. The following are Di Santo's models: 1. The dualistic model - rejection of the Old Testament. Associated with the name of Marcion (85-160 C.E.), its tenet was that "the 'new' of the Christian Scriptures cancelled out the 'old' of the Jewish Scriptures". Though condemned by the Church, it led to many "stereotyped judgments on the Old Testament". Littell speaks of "a Christianity purged of its essential Jewishness" (loc. Cit., pp. 263-4). 2. The allegorical model - spiritualisation of the Old Testament. Pioneered by Clement (Pope from circa 88-97 CE) and particularly Origen (circa 185-254 CE), it accepts the Old Testament in its entirety but reads it as allegory. This theory is also a form of rejection "conditioned by Greco-Hellenistic dualism" and it has the effect of "emptying the Christian faith of its historical dimension". 3. The anthological model - the use of the Old Testament as a tool. This sees the Old Testament as an anthology from which can be selected "passages which are... more universally valid or more readily interpreted christologically", but its selectivity carries "the risk of a loss of meaning and impoverishment". These are models from the past; the author's own contribution is what now follows. 4. The incarnational model - the Old Testament as structure. Here the Old Testament enshrines affirmations of permanent value to all humanity; the New Testament "neither adds to nor modifies (it) but incarnates it... (It) is neither rejected nor emptied of meaning but... 'lived'", and there is "an essential reciprocity between the Old Testament and the New, each enlightening and being enlightened by the other". The first three models are not necessarily chronological; some or all are found at the same time. Nonetheless, taken in Di Santo's order and enriched by his own contribution, they show a gradual maturation in thinking, allowing the Christian increasingly to come to terms with the Tanach, though it is still the Old Testament and not the Tanach. Hence my fifth model, which fits the more sophisticated world of inter-faith dialogue. It might be called "the dialogue model" - the Hebrew Scriptures as both Old Testament and Tanach. It says: 1. Neither faith can deny the Hebrew Scriptures to the other. 2. Neither faith can pick and choose in dealing with the classical text or challenge its integrity. When Hamlet was translated into Yiddish, the title page said, "Hamlet, von Villiam Shakespeare - Verteitcht und Verbessert" - "Hamlet, by William Shakespeare, Translated and Improved". I would argue that no-one has the right to verbesser the contents of the Tanach or any classical work. 3. Every passage cries out, as the Jewish sages put it, darsheni - "expound me!" Jews are certain that their own interpretation is more valid and authentic, but Christians discover different messages in the text. Their exegetical research goes beyond so-called christological passages and their wider Biblical research does not lack potential interest to Jews. 4. The Tanach is the saga and sancta of a living, breathing, believing Jewish people, the varied story of that people's encounter with God, the textbook of the Divine will and the "thought" and "ought" of Judaism, the source and inspiration for a destiny intertwined with a land. 5. The Christian world must acknowledge that Jesus was a Jew brought up on what was later known as the Tanach. Without his Jewish origins and milieu there is no Jesus. Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, "I don't think it is Christian to want to get to the New Testament too soon and too directly." (Prisoner for God: Letters and Papers from Prison, New York, 1957, p. 79) 6. The Tanach must be read in accordance with Hebrew linguistics and not be rewritten by Christians in their own image. When, for example, Psalm 2:12 says nash'ku bar, Christians should not automatically accept the impossible translation, "Kiss the son". 7. Both Jews and Christians must recognise that the other tends to interpret certain passages in a way that both faiths will not and can not share. Whatever the fashions in technical, academic Old Testament scholarship, Jews and Christians must ask how the text speaks to us today. The messages they perceive are bound to differ. But each in their own way, let them echo what the Hebrew prayer book says of the Tanach, that "it is our life and the length of our days" (based on Deuteronomy 30:20). The dialogue movement has brought us closer together than for many centuries. We sit together, we stand together. We speak together, we laugh together, we cry together. Nonetheless, we still find the other rather strange. Sometimes we rejoice at how well we understand each other; at other times we fret at how incomprehensible we are one to the other. We are quite certain that nobody could be as right as our own tradition is. Speaking as a Jew, I know that some Christians regard the separateness and survival of the Jewish people as one of the sheer mysteries of God. Some are sufficiently worried as to deem it a theological scandal. Others, hopefully, will rejoice that it is a manifestation of Divine grace. Jews tend to take a more pragmatic view. "Theorise and agonise if you must," they say, "but the fact is that we are both here and have no intention of changing horses or fading away. Let, then, each of us say: 'Brother, I greet you well. I rejoice that you are here. I recognise your identity as you recognise mine. As to who is right, that's a question for God. The end of days will offer its answer.'" Our dialogue today is part of the discussion. Two faith communities divided by a common Bible? True. But though we are separate, the really important task is for us to hear that Bible's message of morality, whatever the different nuances we bring to its exposition, and to be united by mutual respect. www.IsraelNationalNews.com?? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/b5c9c54c/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Mar 15 22:49:54 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:49:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] VaYakheil / Pekudai Message-ID: The class for this coming Sabbath's Torah reading(s) is up for those that are interested. I will write up my commentary / notes as soon as possible, and post that as well. Just wanted to let you know that the class is ready for download. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/d8875624/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Mar 15 22:51:39 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:51:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] VaYakheil / Pekudai Message-ID: Here is the link: _http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/15/vayakheil-pekudai.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2009/03/15/vayakheil-pekudai.htm) Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090315/0146a228/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Sun Mar 15 23:06:39 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CODY!!!! Message-ID: <608877.35167.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank ya'll so much! -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 16 00:19:22 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:19:22 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CODY!!!!] Message-ID: <49BDE15A.50408@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/dce45aa0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patricia Robbins" Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CODY!!!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:19:43 -0400 Size: 5614 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/dce45aa0/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 16 00:35:42 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:35:42 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Vilified: Telling Lies about Israel"] Message-ID: <49BDE52E.2050205@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/3ad4247d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] "Vilified: Telling Lies about Israel" Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:34:43 -0700 Size: 5189 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/3ad4247d/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 16 00:44:24 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:44:24 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government.] Message-ID: <49BDE738.6080200@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/c50eec96/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patricia Robbins" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Australia's anti-Israel Government. Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:31:32 -0400 Size: 33564 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/c50eec96/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:00:52 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:00:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Us caring for each other.. Message-ID: <855590370903160700u705eb6dfi31e662af331ec333@mail.gmail.com> Here's a lovely story by Rav Lazer Brody which has as its moral, us caring for each other... * Hanoch* ** Home EditorialsThe Deer and the Wolves [image: The Deer and the Wolves] By: Rabbi Lazer Brody [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] *The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website* With the aftermath of elections and the horse-trading of politicians trying to put together a coalition that?s based on self-expediency rather than emuna, everyone seems to be at everyone else?s throats. That?s so unfortunate, for in the face of today?s challenges, we need unity ever so badly. The Hamilton, Ontario Jewish community wins our showcase award for Jewish unity. This past week, the community sponsored a fantastic fund-raising event for the construction of a new mikva, with all segments of the community taking part ? Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. What a sanctification of Hashem?s name when everyone got together to further the cause of Jewish family purity! Breslev Israel salutes you, Hamilton. True spirituality brings people to truly love and respect one another. By the same token, material interests are devastating to peace, whether on a personal or national basis. Here's an example taken from chapter three of *The Trail to Tranquility * to show why: *Two Russian soldiers were once on a winter maneuver in the Siberian forest at midnight. The light of the full moon reflected on the snow, so the woods were well illuminated. * *All of a sudden, they heard a thud. A distressed wild turkey with a broken wing had fallen from the treetops. Within seconds, two hungry wolves arrived on the scene. One grabbed the turkey by the wing, and the other sunk its teeth in the turkey's thigh. The two wolves began a tug of war. When neither wolf succeeded to free the turkey from the other's grasp, they attacked each other. Viciously and mercilessly, they literally tore each other apart, until one wolf dropped dead on the snow. The victor limped away, dragging the turkey between his teeth and leaving a trail of blood on the snow. A few minutes later, he keeled over and died too. * *The gruesome but profound incident conveys a powerful message: The turkey weighed more than twelve pounds; it would have been a more-than-adequate dinner for both wolves. Their greed led them to anger, and their anger led them to violence. As a result, three corpses in were left in the snow - the turkey and the two wolves.* *The Talmud teaches a consequent rule of thumb from situations like the wolf fight: Wherever you have peace, you have abundance; with no peace, starvation is prevalent. * Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? When a thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the bucks first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns drink before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the last one to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an inspiring sight. *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the young. When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had their fill, the rest of the herd grazes.* * * * * * * Whereas the deer live in peace with one another, the wolves don't. Peace is the true reflection of faith in The Almighty. People with faith know that The Almighty has plenty of resources to feed the entire world, so they don't have to use unethical means to obtain their livelihood. They know that G-d will provide for them without reverting to aggression or theft. When there's peace, there's plenty for everyone. King David teaches us that the humble shall inherit the earth (Psalms 37:11). Why? Humble creations ? like the deer ? get along famously with one another and therefore readily cooperate for the common welfare. Arrogant creations, on the other hand, want the whole world for themselves and therefore are constantly at each other?s jugular vein. It?s no happenstance that the Land of Israel is nicknamed *Eretz Hatzvi, *or Land of the Deer (see Rashi?s commentary on Daniel 8:9). The Land of Israel is the inheritance of the humble and prolific deer, who by the way are a kosher species. Amazingly enough, the wolves are a dying breed. Today in Israel, the wolvesneed the intervention of the Society for the Protection of Nature to prevent them from becoming extinct altogether. Let?s learn from the deer and live in peace with one another for the benefit of everybody. With national unity and mutual aid, we?ll certainly invoke Divine compassion to beat the rap of the impending recession and thereby insure an adequate and respectable livelihood for everyone, amen. * * * * (We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody?s award-winning daily web journal, ?Lazer Beams ?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/7e583838/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:15:27 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:15:27 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Rabbi Meir Kahane tells it like it is" Message-ID: <855590370903160715l35565ect289f32e5b8514248@mail.gmail.com> Blog by Tzvi Fishman - Hollywood to the Holy Land (Arutz-7) Adar 20, 5769, 3/16/2009 In his blog today, Tzvi Fishman quotes extensively from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane H"YD (May G-d Avenge his blood). *Hanoch* Rabbi Meir Kahane Tells It Like It Is *The exile is the pinnacle and essence of Chilul Hashem. Indeed, the liquidation of the exile is a Kiddush Hashem, and regarding this mitzvah all of Israel are commanded. *There are those who accuse me of distorting the interpretation of Ezekiel?s prophecy in yesterday?s blog. So let?s see what the saintly Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, wrote about the very same prophecy regarding the salvation of Israel from the Chilul Hashem of galut, and about the exaltedness of the State of Israel ? even with all of its shortcomings. *New Biography of the Great Lover of Israel* What it comes down to is ? either you are a part of the solution, by being in Israel and working to rebuild it along Torah ideals; or you are a part of the problem, by remaining in the exile and thereby prolonging its existence. *or you are a part of the problem* (The following is a condensed excerpt from his book, ?The Jewish Idea,? Vol. 2:) WE HAVE no clearer picture of the degradation and abhorrence which Israel face in the exile and which result in Chilul Hashem (desecration of G-d). In response to this Chilul Hashem, G-d comes in anger and wrath to take revenge against the nations and sanctify His name which was profaned through Israel?s abject state. It, therefore, says, ?I had pity for My holy name which the house of Israel profaned among the nations, whither they came? (Ezek. 36:21). When the time for redemption arrives, G-d has pity on His holy people, profaned among the nations by Israel?s very presence in exile among them, living under them, subject to and dependent upon them. Even when the nations allow Israel to live in peace among them, Israel still depend on their goodness and tolerance, and that, too, is a Chilul Hashem. The fact that Israel live as a minority constantly dependent on the kindness of the nations, itself diminishes the glory of Israel, and of G-d, so to speak. *Beholden to the Goy* This is the intent of Targum?s rendering of the verse, ?There [in the exile] you will serve other gods? (Deut. 28:36,64): ?There you will serve nations that worship idols.? Israel, by being subject to these nations, even if this just means living under their sovereignty as a minority in the territory of the alien majority, magnify and exalt the gods and culture of the nations, and belittle G-d?s omnipotence, not to mention where the nations humiliate, murder and exterminate them. *NY Stock Exchange - Worshipping their gods * G-d, thus, intends to blot out the Chilul Hashem among the nations, occurring through Israel, in the only way that the nations will understand, namely, Israel?s redemption and their victory over the nations who blasphemed G-d. Therefore, although Israel are unworthy of redemption in terms of their deeds, which are insufficient, still, a certain ?time? arrives in G-d?s calculations when He has compassion for His holy name, profaned among the nations. ?And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in the midst of them. The nations shall know that I am the L-rd, says the L-rd G-d, when I am sanctified through you before their eyes? (Ibid., v. 23). *Chiddush Hashem* Rashi comments, ?What does this sanctification involve? ?I will take you from among the nations.?? This is from verse 24 which follows: ?I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and bring you into your own land.? Chilul and Kiddush Hashem are opposites, and the ways that each is expressed are opposites as well. The non-Jew understands Israel?s exile and abject state as G-d?s inability to help His people, or, Heaven forbid, as G-d?s nonexistence. This is the greatest Chilul Hashem there is. It follows that only through Israel?s return to Eretz Yisrael and their being exalted and gaining power over the nations will those nations understand that, indeed, the L-rd is G-d, Supreme, Omnipotent King of Kings, and accept His sovereignty. The exile, itself, in the eyes of the nations is the pinnacle of Chilul Hashem, whereas Israel?s return to Eretz Yisrael, the land from which they were exiled, and the establishment of a sovereign state triumphantly, against the will of the nations, is the pinnacle of Kiddush Hashem; the proof to the nations that, indeed, a G-d exists in Israel, and He is the Supreme Master and King of Kings. Thus, His might, valor and victory are revealed through the might, valor and victory of Israel. The exile is the pinnacle and essence of Chilul Hashem. Indeed, the liquidation of the exile is a Kiddush Hashem, and *regarding this mitzvah all of Israel are commanded*. Now, we finally understand the true meaning of the exile and its Chilul Hashem of national dimensions, and most of all, the reason for the rebirth of the Jewish state in our day. ?I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations? (Ezek. 36:22). Not because the Jewish People were worthy of it did the State of Israel rise up and come into being. Spiritually, the vast majority of Jews remained as before or were even worse off. The leaders of the people and the State did not even contemplate repentance, remaining confirmed heretics and rebels against G-d. *Yet, this alters nothing*, for the State was not established as a reward for Israel?s righteousness or good deeds. The exile and everything bound up with it ? Israel?s abject state, their defeats and persecutions, the gathering of crumbs from the table of others, and the incalculable bloodshed suffered by our fellow Jews ? constitute a Chilul Hashem, a blasphemous mockery of Hashem, the G-d of Israel, for His ?weakness and inability? to aid His people. *Therefore, the Jewish state ? the result of the return to Zion and the ingathering of the exiles, which affords the Jew a home, a majority in his land, sovereignty, an army, retribution to Israel?s enemies, and the exalting of His glory on the battlefield ? constitutes the exact opposite, Kiddush Hashem!* This is the proof, the renewed confirmation of G-d?s existence and of His dominion, of Divine Providence over the universe and over all His creations: ?For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all the countries, and bring you into your own land? (Ezek. 36:24). ?Where is their G-d?? Here He is, in all His splendor and majesty! In the return of a wandering people from the four corners of the earth to their land, in the revival of Israel?s military might, so shocking to all the nations of the world, in their valor and in their might. ?I shall be sanctified through you? (Ezek. 36:23). Through the sanctification of the Jew, G-d?s name is sanctified as well, and through the exaltation of the Jewish People, G-d?s name is exalted. This is the meaning of the creation and rising up of the Jewish state. This is Kiddush Hashem. *This is the beginning of the complete redemption*. This State of Israel is the beginning of G-d?s wrath against the nations who do not know Him and who have profaned His name with scorn and derision. It is time for your redemption. Sanctify My name! However, there will be no ?hasty? redemption (Isaiah 60:22), glorious and majestic, devoid of dreadful suffering, unless the Jewish People return to their Father in Heaven, accept His yoke, and chiefly, unless they trust in Him completely and are ready to sanctify His name through self-sacrifice. The redemption which began despite our sins in order to sanctify G-d?s name before the nations in might and splendor, has, in the hands of an ?ungrateful, unwise nation? (Deut. 32:6), turned into a profanation and a blasphemy carried out precisely by those whom G-d thought to redeem. If the beginning of the redemption and the state served to sanctify G-d?s name, then the only way to move on to ?hasty? redemption is to continue reinforcing the Kiddush Hashem which the state?s very establishment constituted. The Divine imperative is continued Kiddush Hashem through trusting in G-d, and liquidating the Chilul Hashem without fear of the non-Jew, without fear of flesh and blood. Every retreat, every submission, every concession to the non-Jew, every hand raised against the Jew, every attack, let alone murder, of a Jew in the Land, every taunt and curse by a non-Jew in the Land, is a Chilul Hashem. If such Chilul Hashem exists, it is many times more severe than any other type, for it occurs within the state which arose exclusively to eradicate Chilul Hashem. Now, instead of continuing to reinforce the Kiddush Hashem process, the Jewish People retreat and profane G-d?s name. *Evacuation at Amona* Whoever allows the non-Jew in Eretz Yisrael to rise up, profanes G-d?s name with terrible contempt. If G-d gave us large portions of Eretz Yisrael as part of the start of redemption, in order to sanctify His name through the most remarkable, mighty victories, and someone is later ready to concede parts of the Holy Land and hand them over to the nations, he profanes G-d?s name with disgraceful blasphemy. Whoever does not allow Jews to live everywhere in the Land, whoever ties their hands and prevents their taking the revenge of G-d and Israel against the nations who curse and revile G-d and His Messiah, profanes G-d?s name and profanes the great miracle and the powerful dream realized by G-d at the start of the redemption. Whoever sees the rebirth of Eretz Yisrael and a Jewish state and understands that he can easily flee the defilement of the nations and the exile and move to the Holy Land; whoever knows that G-d has opened the last chapter of the existence of the world, which is approaching the end of the sixth thousand, and that G-d is beginning to sanctify His name, profaned among the nations, by returning Israel to their land, thereby preparing to blot out the exile, symbol of Chilul Hashem ? *whoever knows all this, yet remains among the nations and their defilements, loathing the delightful Land, profanes G-d?s name and His beloved land.* *Take a look at yourself in the mirror!* And whoever remains there out of fear and dread of the nations, or out of doubts and uncertainties regarding his livelihood or the dangers of the Land, thereby demonstrates total lack of faith in Hashem as the G-d of Israel, Supreme, Omnipotent King of Kings; and there is no Chilul Hashem more degrading, for it borders on atheism. Yet, all attempts to flee the challenge and mission which G-d placed on our necks as a dear and gladdening yoke will be to no avail. (Condensed from the book, ?The Jewish Idea? Vol.2; Ch 27, ?The Final Redemption.?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/aee58562/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:22:33 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:22:33 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] With profound sadness and loss.... Message-ID: <855590370903160822i3aa3bee2wa694ad374b087d4a@mail.gmail.com> I share this news with profound sadness and loss, it was announced today that actor Ron Silver had died of Cancer. His political views were astounding for an actor in the 'Hollywood crowd' - please see the brief story and quotes below. May his name always be remembered for a Bracha. * Hanoch* Ron Silver, R.I.P; Flashback: Silver?s 2004 RNC speech By Michelle Malkin ? March 15, 2009 08:36 PM The New York Post reports the sad news that actor Ron Silver has *died*. He succumbed to cancer. The 9/11 jihadi attacks were a pivotal moment in Silver?s political *evolution*from Hollywood liberal to Hollywood hawk: ??I think there are September 10 people and there are September 11 people. I?m one of the latter. Everything changed for me. Since then I see everything through the prism of what happened that day,? he says.? Silver?s rare, brave voice in the entertainment industry will be missed. R.I.P. The following are Silver?s remarks to the *2004 Republican National Convention:* *I want to thank the President and the Republican Party for holding this event in my hometown, my father?s hometown, my grandfather?s and great grandfather?s birthplace.* *Just over 1,000 days ago, 2,605 of my neighbors were murdered at the World Trade Center ? men, women and children ? as they began their day on a brilliantly clear New York autumn morning, less than four miles from where I am now standing.* *We will never forgive. Never forget. Never excuse!* *At the end of World War II, General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Allied Commander of the South Pacific, said:* *?It is my earnest hope - indeed the hope of all mankind - that from this solemn occasion a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of the past, a world found upon faith and understanding, a world dedicated to the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for freedom, tolerance and justice.?* *The hope he expressed then remains relevant today.* *We are again engaged in a war that will define the future of humankind.* *Responding to attacks on our soil, America has led a coalition of countries against extremists who want to destroy our way of life and our values.* *This is a war we did not seek.* *This is a war waged against us.* *This is a war to which we had to respond.* *History shows that we are not imperialists . . .but we are fighters for freedom and democracy.* *Even though I am a well-recognized liberal on many issues confronting our society today, I find it ironic that many human rights advocates and outspoken members of my own entertainment community are often on the front lines to protest repression, for which I applaud them but they are usually the first ones to oppose any use of force to take care of these horrors that they catalogue repeatedly.* *Under the unwavering leadership of President Bush, the cause of freedom and democracy is being advanced by the courageous men and women serving in our Armed Services.* *The President is doing exactly the right thing.* *That is why we need this President at this time!* *I am grateful for the chance to speak tonight to express my support for our Commander-in-Chief, for our brave troops, and for the vital cause which they have undertaken.* *General Dwight Eisenhower?s statement of 60 years ago is true today . . .* *?United in this determination and with unshakable faith in the cause for which we fight, we will, with God?s help, go forward to our greatest victory.?* *Thank you.* * SEE BELOW* *Tribute to Actor Ron Silver, A Proud One Jerusalem Founder* The One Jerusalem family mourns the death of actor Ron Silver,who fought against the tide in Holywood as he championed the cause of the United States of America, The State of Israel, and the unity of the Holy City of Jerusalem. [image: Actor Ron Silver]I met Ron shortly after the founding of One Jerusalem and I asked him why he was volunteering his name in support of a cause that would only bring him trouble in his professional life. After all, the entertainment industry is dominated by people who despise the State of Israel and who would have gladly turned Jerusalem over to Yassar Arafat and his terrorist mob. I will never forget Ron's response to my question. He replied: *As an American, we owe Israel our support because the people of Israel represent our interest and values in a hostile part of the world. As a Jew, Jerusalem is the heart and soul of our people. *Over the years, Ron helped good causes whenever he could. Once he chaired for us a panel discussion in Congress on Saudi Arabia's support for radical Islam. He also actively supportedthe aggressive Bush Administration response to 9-11. A few months ago I received a call from Ron asking for help. He was with his son and he wanted our help in getting him and his son access to Auschwitz. He wanted to show his son the evil done to the Jewish people. There will be much written about Ron Silver. And we at One Jerusalem will always remember him for the courage he displayed in his personal fight against cancer, his patriotic commitment to the United States of America, and his unshakable support for a united Jerusalem. *Sincerely, Allen Roth -- President of One Jerusalem* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/424481eb/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Mon Mar 16 10:25:46 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:25:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> Hanoch, The illustration on the deer reminded me of: As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. Psalm 42:1 illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are not true leaders or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The leader buck being the LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. Stephen "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? When a thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the bucks first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns drink before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the last one to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an inspiring sight. *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the young. When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had their fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 16 10:25:43 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:25:43 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] With profound sadness and loss.... Message-ID: Hanoch, Just wanted to say your posts recently have been awesome. Thank you. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] With profound sadness and loss.... Date: 3/16/2009 11:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: I share this news with profound sadness and loss, it was announced today that actor Ron Silver had died of Cancer. His political views were astounding for an actor in the 'Hollywood crowd' - please see the brief story and quotes below. May his name always be remembered for a Bracha. Hanoch Ron Silver, R.I.P; Flashback: Silver?s 2004 RNC speech By Michelle Malkin ? March 15, 2009 08:36 PM The New York Post reports the sad news that actor Ron Silver has _died_ (http://www.nypost.com/seven/03152009/news/regionalnews/ron_silver_dies_159710.htm) . He succumbed to cancer. The 9/11 jihadi attacks were a pivotal moment in Silver?s political _evolution_ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57904-2004Sep2.html) from Hollywood liberal to Hollywood hawk: ??I think there are September 10 people and there are September 11 people. I?m one of the latter.. Everything changed for me. Since then I see everything through the prism of what happened that day,? he says.? Silver?s rare, brave voice in the entertainment industry will be missed. R.I.P. The following are Silver?s remarks to the _2004 Republican National Convention:_ (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-30-2004/0002240914&EDATE) I want to thank the President and the Republican Party for holding this event in my hometown, my father?s hometown, my grandfather?s and great grandfather?s birthplace. Just over 1,000 days ago, 2,605 of my neighbors were murdered at the World Trade Center ? men, women and children ? as they began their day on a brilliantly clear New York autumn morning, less than four miles from where I am now standing. We will never forgive. Never forget. Never excuse! At the end of World War II, General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Allied Commander of the South Pacific, said: ?It is my earnest hope - indeed the hope of all mankind - that from this solemn occasion a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of the past, a world found upon faith and understanding, a world dedicated to the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for freedom, tolerance and justice.? The hope he expressed then remains relevant today. We are again engaged in a war that will define the future of humankind. Responding to attacks on our soil, America has led a coalition of countries against extremists who want to destroy our way of life and our values. This is a war we did not seek. This is a war waged against us. This is a war to which we had to respond. History shows that we are not imperialists . . .but we are fighters for freedom and democracy. Even though I am a well-recognized liberal on many issues confronting our society today, I find it ironic that many human rights advocates and outspoken members of my own entertainment community are often on the front lines to protest repression, for which I applaud them but they are usually the first ones to oppose any use of force to take care of these horrors that they catalogue repeatedly. Under the unwavering leadership of President Bush, the cause of freedom and democracy is being advanced by the courageous men and women serving in our Armed Services. The President is doing exactly the right thing. That is why we need this President at this time! I am grateful for the chance to speak tonight to express my support for our Commander-in-Chief, for our brave troops, and for the vital cause which they have undertaken. General Dwight Eisenhower?s statement of 60 years ago is true today . . . ?United in this determination and with unshakable faith in the cause for which we fight, we will, with God?s help, go forward to our greatest victory.? Thank you. SEE BELOW Tribute to Actor Ron Silver, A Proud One Jerusalem Founder The One Jerusalem family mourns the death of actor _Ron Silver,_ (http://www.nypost.com/seven/03152009/news/regionalnews/ron_silver_dies_159710.htm) who fought against the tide in Holywood as he championed the cause of the United States of America, The State of Israel, and the unity of the Holy City of Jerusalem. I met Ron shortly after the founding of One Jerusalem and I asked him why he was volunteering his name in support of a cause that would only bring him trouble in his professional life. After all, the entertainment industry is dominated by people who despise the State of Israel and who would have gladly turned Jerusalem over to Yassar Arafat and his terrorist mob. I will never forget Ron's response to my question. He replied: As an American, we owe Israel our support because the people of Israel represent our interest and values in a hostile part of the world. As a Jew, Jerusalem is the heart and soul of our people. Over the years, Ron helped good causes whenever he could. Once he chaired for us a panel discussion in Congress on Saudi Arabia's support for radical Islam. He also _actively supported_ (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/03/15/ron-silver-rip-flashback-silvers-2004-rnc-speech/) the aggressive Bush Administration response to 9-11. A few months ago I received a call from Ron asking for help. He was with his son and he wanted our help in getting him and his son access to Auschwitz. He wanted to show his son the evil done to the Jewish people. There will be much written about _Ron Silver._ (http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2009/03/15/in-memorium-ron-silver/) And we at One Jerusalem will always remember him for the courage he displayed in his personal fight against cancer, his patriotic commitment to the United States of America, and his unshakable support for a united Jerusalem. Sincerely, Allen Roth -- President of One Jerusalem _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/cb813d88/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:59:58 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:59:58 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY CUTE! Hebrew Alef-Bet song (English subtitles) Message-ID: <855590370903160859i37e808e8n1dd53c172c979e50@mail.gmail.com> Shalom Chaverim, For any of you (*or* your children/grandchildren) who have been trying to get the intricacies of the Alef-Bet down, try watching this video, it's very cute. * Hanoch* Click here: YouTube - The Hebrew Alef-Bet Song Rap (English Subtitles) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/c5f196d1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:04:01 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:04:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] With profound sadness and loss.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903160904y72a130a5r111a7cc33d3ee3d4@mail.gmail.com> Hey Hez, Thanks very much! * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:25 AM, wrote: > Hanoch, > Just wanted to say your posts recently have been awesome. Thank you. > Shalom,Hez > > ========Original Message======== Subj: *[Dialogue] With profound sadness > and loss....* Date: 3/16/2009 11:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: > youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > I share this news with profound sadness and loss, it was announced today > that actor Ron Silver had died of Cancer. His political views were > astounding for an actor in the 'Hollywood crowd' - please see the brief > story and quotes below. May his name always be remembered for a Bracha. > * Hanoch* > Ron Silver, R.I.P; Flashback: Silver?s 2004 RNC speech By Michelle > Malkin ? March 15, 2009 08:36 PM > > The New York Post reports the sad news that actor Ron Silver has *died*. > He succumbed to cancer. The 9/11 jihadi attacks were a pivotal moment in > Silver?s political *evolution*from Hollywood liberal to Hollywood hawk: ??I think there are September 10 > people and there are September 11 people. I?m one of the latter.. Everything > changed for me. Since then I see everything through the prism of what > happened that day,? he says.? > > Silver?s rare, brave voice in the entertainment industry will be missed. > R.I.P. > > The following are Silver?s remarks to the *2004 Republican National > Convention:* > > *I want to thank the President and the Republican Party for holding this > event in my hometown, my father?s hometown, my grandfather?s and great > grandfather?s birthplace.* > > *Just over 1,000 days ago, 2,605 of my neighbors were murdered at the > World Trade Center ? men, women and children ? as they began their day on a > brilliantly clear New York autumn morning, less than four miles from where I > am now standing.* > > *We will never forgive. Never forget. Never excuse!* > > *At the end of World War II, General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Allied > Commander of the South Pacific, said:* > > *?It is my earnest hope - indeed the hope of all mankind - that from this > solemn occasion a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of > the past, a world found upon faith and understanding, a world dedicated to > the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for > freedom, tolerance and justice.?* > > *The hope he expressed then remains relevant today.* > > *We are again engaged in a war that will define the future of humankind.* > > *Responding to attacks on our soil, America has led a coalition of > countries > against extremists who want to destroy our way of life and our values.* > > *This is a war we did not seek.* > > *This is a war waged against us.* > > *This is a war to which we had to respond.* > > *History shows that we are not imperialists . . .but we are fighters for > freedom and democracy.* > > *Even though I am a well-recognized liberal on many issues confronting our > society today, I find it ironic that many human rights advocates and > outspoken members of my own entertainment community are often on the front > lines to protest repression, for which I applaud them but they are usually > the first ones to oppose any use of force to take care of these horrors that > they > catalogue repeatedly.* > > *Under the unwavering leadership of President Bush, the cause of freedom > and democracy is being advanced by the courageous men and women serving in > our Armed Services.* > > *The President is doing exactly the right thing.* > > *That is why we need this President at this time!* > > *I am grateful for the chance to speak tonight to express my support for > our Commander-in-Chief, for our brave troops, and for the vital cause which > they have undertaken.* > > *General Dwight Eisenhower?s statement of 60 years ago is true today . . . > * > > *?United in this determination and with unshakable faith in the cause for > which we fight, we will, with God?s help, go forward to our greatest > victory.?* > > *Thank you.* * SEE BELOW* > > *Tribute to Actor Ron Silver, A Proud One Jerusalem Founder* > > The One Jerusalem family mourns the death of actor Ron Silver,who fought against the tide in Holywood as he championed the cause of the > United States of America, The State of Israel, and the unity of the Holy > City of Jerusalem. > > [image: Actor Ron Silver]I met Ron shortly after the founding of One > Jerusalem and I asked him why he was volunteering his name in support of a > cause that would only bring him trouble in his professional life. After all, > the entertainment industry is dominated by people who despise the State of > Israel and who would have gladly turned Jerusalem over to Yassar Arafat and > his terrorist mob. > > I will never forget Ron's response to my question. He replied: > *As an American, we owe Israel our support because the people of Israel > represent our interest and values in a hostile part of the world. As a Jew, > Jerusalem is the heart and soul of our people. > > *Over the years, Ron helped good causes whenever he could. Once he chaired > for us a panel discussion in Congress on Saudi Arabia's support for radical > Islam. He also actively supportedthe aggressive Bush Administration response to 9-11. > > A few months ago I received a call from Ron asking for help. He was with > his son and he wanted our help in getting him and his son access to > Auschwitz. He wanted to show his son the evil done to the Jewish people. > > There will be much written about Ron Silver. > > And we at One Jerusalem will always remember him for the courage he > displayed in his personal fight against cancer, his patriotic commitment to > the United States of America, and his unshakable support for a united > Jerusalem. > > *Sincerely, Allen Roth -- President of One Jerusalem* > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/ee87be3c/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Mon Mar 16 11:07:32 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:07:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> Message-ID: <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> So true. Amen Cornie stephen wrote: > Hanoch, > > The illustration on the deer reminded me of: > > As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after > thee, O God. > Psalm 42:1 > > illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are not > true leaders > or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The leader buck > being the > LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! > > Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. > > Stephen > > "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? > When a > thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the > bucks > first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns > drink > before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the > last one > to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's > worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an > inspiring sight. > > *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the > young. > When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to > partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had > their > fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" > > http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english > > > _______________________________________________ > From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:09:34 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:09:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> Message-ID: <855590370903160909s357004b3q767be9a75605c019@mail.gmail.com> Hey Stephen, Yeah, I know what you mean. At first glance it's a sweet story (Rav Lazer shares many of them), but when I thought about on the deeper level - the analogies are SO strong!! The deer has always had a very strong symbolism for me, too. Which is why I named my eldest, Ayala - female deer. I tried to keep the analogy going when I named her sister Kyra, which is from Yakyra - dear. Although only one letter apart, it's not quite the same! :-) And the "who gets to drink first" test of leadership is a real good one.... Best regards, *Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:25 AM, stephen wrote: > Hanoch, > > The illustration on the deer reminded me of: > > As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, > O God. > Psalm 42:1 > > illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are not true > leaders > or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The leader buck being > the > LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! > > Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. > > Stephen > > "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? When > a > thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the > bucks > first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns drink > before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the last > one > to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's > worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an > inspiring sight. > > *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the > young. > When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to > partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had > their > fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" > > > http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/7e92eb24/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:10:53 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:10:53 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <855590370903160910u49a77640r40c7db7b2a375c1e@mail.gmail.com> Hey Cornie! Regards from the Big Apple!! Five more months until I go HOME, come visit me then, okay? :-) * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Cornie Reimer wrote: > So true. Amen > > Cornie > > > > > stephen wrote: > >> Hanoch, >> >> The illustration on the deer reminded me of: >> >> As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, >> O God. >> Psalm 42:1 >> >> illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are not true >> leaders >> or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The leader buck >> being the >> LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! >> >> Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. >> >> Stephen >> >> "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? When >> a >> thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the >> bucks >> first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns drink >> before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the last >> one >> to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's >> worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an >> inspiring sight. >> >> *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the >> young. >> When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to >> partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had >> their >> fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" >> >> >> http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/0af15e50/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 16 11:16:58 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:16:58 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] VERY CUTE! Hebrew Alef-Bet song (English subtitles) Message-ID: Nice Hanoch,thanx again. Let me share some other Jewish kids sites with learning,games and lots more, if anyone is interested. Hez _Torah Tots - The Premier Site for Jewish children_ (http://www.torahtots.com/) _Games from ZigZag, Inc._ (http://www.zigzagworld.com/games/) _BabagaNewz: A Great Space for Jewish Kids on the Web!_ (http://www.babaganewz.com/) _Holy Sparks: Links For Kids_ (http://www.holysparks.com/kidlinks.html) _Children's Jewish Holiday Sites_ (http://www.fmfcorp.com/familyspot/holidays.html) _Jewish Crafts, Printables and Activities_ (http://www.dltk-kids.com/World/jewish/index.htm) _Jewish Passover Activities and games for kids_ (http://www.apples4theteacher.com/holidays/passover/) ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] VERY CUTE! Hebrew Alef-Bet song (English subtitles) Date: 3/16/2009 12:03:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom Chaverim, For any of you (or your children/grandchildren) who have been trying to get the intricacies of the Alef-Bet down, try watching this video, it's very cute. Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - The Hebrew Alef-Bet Song Rap (English Subtitles)_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7UEGjV2XHU&feature=related) _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/7af3d465/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:44:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:44:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." Message-ID: <855590370903160944k39e2c07ao849d0ed36a6794c6@mail.gmail.com> Back to the "You really can't make this stuff up.." There's the following story about European Jewry. Evidently, they want to LOWER the BAR in terms of conversions, intermarriages and communal membership. What a GREAT idea!!! Just lower the standards, and then, amazingly, there's no longer any problem!!! And it's wonderful that Israel is THIRD on their list of priorities....as * IF* there was a future for Jews in Europe... Still a pretty sharp learning curve there, it seems.... * Hanoch (more disgusted then usual)* * Study suggests a more liberal European Jewry March 16, 2009 BERLIN (JTA) -- European Jewish leaders believe that conversion, intermarriage and communal membership should be dealt with more liberally, a new study finds. In a survey of 251 Jewish leaders in Europe conducted last fall, 85 percent of respondents felt it was "not a good idea to strongly oppose intermarriage and bar intermarried Jews and their spouses from communal membership." Most European Jewish communities now allow only those with a Jewish mother or an Orthodox conversion to be counted. The results of the pan-European survey, which was sponsored by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee?s International Centre for Community Development, were released late Sunday by the JDC. The Gallup Europe survey included respondents from 31 countries. In more survey results, fewer than 27 percent of respondents felt that only those who were born to a Jewish mother or who have undergone an Orthodox conversion should be allowed to become a member of the community. Even among those describing themselves as Orthodox or Modern Orthodox, 43 percent believed that those who have undergone conversion under rabbinic supervision from any denomination should be allowed to join. Similarly, 46 percent of Orthodox respondents agreed that one Jewish parent was enough to justify membership in communal organizations. While many younger Jewish leaders expressed pessimism about Jewish life in Europe, the vast majority of all respondents agreed that Europe is a safe place for Jews to live, with only 15 percent of those under 40 and 5 percent of those over 55 disagreeing. Supporting Israel was the third highest priority among respondents, but nearly half said they were sometimes ?ashamed? by the actions of the Israeli government. Also, about 75 percent agreed at least somewhat that events in Israel sometimes led to an increase of anti-Semitism in their countries. Respondents, however, expressed strong support for Israel overall. * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/17c1b346/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:50:44 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY CUTE! Hebrew Alef-Bet song (English subtitles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903160950r3557d769kd4be9351da6b1a44@mail.gmail.com> GREAT resouces Hez!! I hope everyone takes full advantage of what's out there. Toda! * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:16 AM, wrote: > Nice Hanoch,thanx again. Let me share some other Jewish kids sites with > learning,games and lots more, if anyone is interested. Hez Torah Tots > - The Premier Site for Jewish children Games > from ZigZag, Inc. > BabagaNewz: A Great Space for Jewish Kids on the Web! > Holy Sparks: Links For Kids > Children's Jewish Holiday Sites > Jewish Crafts, Printables and Activities > Jewish Passover Activities and games for kids > > > > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *[Dialogue] VERY CUTE! Hebrew Alef-Bet song (English subtitles)* > Date: 3/16/2009 12:03:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: > youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > Shalom Chaverim, > > For any of you (*or* your children/grandchildren) who have been trying > to get the intricacies of the Alef-Bet down, try watching this video, it's > very cute. > * Hanoch* > > Click here: YouTube - The Hebrew Alef-Bet Song Rap (English Subtitles) > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/9c23ede8/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 16 12:55:57 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:55:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." In-Reply-To: <855590370903160944k39e2c07ao849d0ed36a6794c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031620091755.771.49BE92AA00058A920000030322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Incredible, this right up there with global warming. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Back to the "You really can't make this stuff up.." There's the following story about European Jewry. Evidently, they want to LOWER the BAR in terms of conversions, intermarriages and communal membership. What a GREAT idea!!! Just lower the standards, and then, amazingly, there's no longer any problem!!! And it's wonderful that Israel is THIRD on their list of priorities....as IF there was a future for Jews in Europe... Still a pretty sharp learning curve there, it seems.... Hanoch (more disgusted then usual) Study suggests a more liberal European Jewry March 16, 2009 BERLIN (JTA) -- European Jewish leaders believe that conversion, intermarriage and communal membership should be dealt with more liberally, a new study finds. In a survey of 251 Jewish leaders in Europe conducted last fall, 85 percent of respondents felt it was "not a good idea to strongly oppose intermarriage and bar intermarried Jews and their spouses from communal membership." Most European Jewish communities now allow only those with a Jewish mother or an Orthodox conversion to be counted. The results of the pan-European survey, which was sponsored by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee?s International Centre for Community Development, were released late Sunday by the JDC. The Gallup Europe survey included respondents from 31 countries. In more survey results, fewer than 27 percent of respondents felt that only those who were born to a Jewish mother or who have undergone an Orthodox conversion should be allowed to become a member of the community. Even among those describing themselves as Orthodox or Modern Orthodox, 43 percent believed that those who have undergone conversion under rabbinic supervision from any denomination should be allowed to join. Similarly, 46 percent of Orthodox respondents agreed that one Jewish parent was enough to justify membership in communal organizations. While many younger Jewish leaders expressed pessimism about Jewish life in Europe, the vast majority of all respondents agreed that Europe is a safe place for Jews to live, with only 15 percent of those under 40 and 5 percent of those over 55 disagreeing. Supporting Israel was the third highest priority among respondents, but nearly half said they were sometimes ?ashamed? by the actions of the Israeli government. Also, about 75 percent agreed at least somewhat that events in Israel sometimes led to an increase of anti-Semitism in their countries. Respondents, however, expressed strong support for Israel overall. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/a643031e/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Mar 16 13:39:56 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:39:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." In-Reply-To: <031620091755.771.49BE92AA00058A920000030322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <855590370903160944k39e2c07ao849d0ed36a6794c6@mail.gmail.com> <031620091755.771.49BE92AA00058A920000030322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <051601c9a666$9bfddb30$d3f99190$@com> Okay, I may be able to top this. A few years back I read in the Jerusalem Post (I think) that a group of Egyptians were suing Israel for the plunder they took when they left Egypt. I will try to find this, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 1:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." Incredible, this right up there with global warming. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Back to the "You really can't make this stuff up.." There's the following story about European Jewry. Evidently, they want to LOWER the BAR in terms of conversions, intermarriages and communal membership. What a GREAT idea!!! Just lower the standards, and then, amazingly, there's no longer any problem!!! And it's wonderful that Israel is THIRD on their list of priorities....as IF there was a future for Jews in Europe... Still a pretty sharp learning curve there, it seems.... Hanoch (more disgusted then usual) Study suggests a more liberal European Jewry March 16, 2009 BERLIN (JTA) -- European Jewish leaders believe that conversion, intermarriage and communal membership should be dealt with more liberally, a new study finds. In a survey of 251 Jewish leaders in Europe conducted last fall, 85 percent of respondents felt it was "not a good idea to strongly oppose intermarriage and bar intermarried Jews and their spouses from communal membership." Most European Jewish communities now allow only those with a Jewish mother or an Orthodox conversion to be counted. The results of the pan-European survey, which was sponsored by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee?s International Centre for Community Development, were released late Sunday by the JDC. The Gallup Europe survey included respondents from 31 countries. In more survey results, fewer than 27 percent of respondents felt that only those who were born to a Jewish mother or who have undergone an Orthodox conversion should be allowed to become a member of the community. Even among those describing themselves as Orthodox or Modern Orthodox, 43 percent believed that those who have undergone conversion under rabbinic supervision from any denomination should be allowed to join. Similarly, 46 percent of Orthodox respondents agreed that one Jewish parent was enough to justify membership in communal organizations. While many younger Jewish leaders expressed pessimism about Jewish life in Europe, the vast majority of all respondents agreed that Europe is a safe place for Jews to live, with only 15 percent of those under 40 and 5 percent of those over 55 disagreeing. Supporting Israel was the third highest priority among respondents, but nearly half said they were sometimes ?ashamed? by the actions of the Israeli government. Also, about 75 percent agreed at least somewhat that events in Israel sometimes led to an increase of anti-Semitism in their countries. Respondents, however, expressed strong support for Israel overall. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/bc612ccd/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Mar 16 13:43:13 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:43:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] I Found It! In-Reply-To: <051601c9a666$9bfddb30$d3f99190$@com> References: <855590370903160944k39e2c07ao849d0ed36a6794c6@mail.gmail.com> <031620091755.771.49BE92AA00058A920000030322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <051601c9a666$9bfddb30$d3f99190$@com> Message-ID: <052c01c9a667$1007aab0$30170010$@com> Egyptian lawyer to sue Jews for biblical ?plunder? September 11th, 2003 at 3:22am An Egyptian lawyer said today he was planning to sue the world?s Jews for ?plundering? gold during the Exodus from Pharaonic Egypt thousands of years ago, based on information in the Bible . Nabil Hilmi, Dean of the Faculty of Law at Egypt?s al-Zaqaziq University, said the legal basis for the case was under study by a group of lawyers in Egypt and Europe. ?This is serious, and should not be misread as being political against any race. We are just investigating if a debt is owed,? Hilmi told Reuters in a telephone interview. The relevant passage from the Bible , Exodus 12 verses 35 to 36 reads: ?The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelrey of silver and gold, and for clothing ? And so they plundered the Egyptians.? This translation is in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible . Some Jewish commentators say that while the Biblical passage may be fact, the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians and therefore had a right to claim compensation for wages. ?Hilmi?s assertion that the Hebrew Bible is fact has given Israel and Jews the world over a reason to rejoice. He has opened the door for all Jews to sue Egypt for over 400 years of slavery,? writer Beth Goodman told Reuters. Tareq Zaghoul, a lawyer at the Egyptian Organisation for Human Rights in Cairo, said it would be difficult to prove historical fact in the passage that would stand up in court. ?This needs historical documents and evidence to back it up. It is rather far-fetched,? he said. Hilmi said Egyptian and European historical and religious experts were trying to establish if the biblical passage could be taken as fact, and hence form the basis for a lawsuit. He said the argument that Jews could sue Egypt for enslaving them was also being studied by experts. Hilmi gave no details of which court he planned to file the case in or whether he thought such a case would be exempt from the sort of statute of limitations that in many countries rules out legal cases after a certain period of time. He also declined to put a value on the goods ?plundered?. Jews are also planning to sue Rome for pain, suffering, loss of libido and erectile dysfunction caused by the alleged crucifixion. The Christians considered doing the same, but lawyers came to the conclusion that the Resurrection would render the charge annulled and hence the litigation invalid. All will be tossed out of court quicker than Gandhi at an NRA meeting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/5376dbaa/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 16 14:15:03 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:15:03 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." Message-ID: Here you go,Patty. Special Dispatch - Egypt August 22, 2003 No. 556 (Translated from Arabic Language Sources) Egyptian Jurists to Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation for 'Trillions' of Tons of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt The August 9, 2003 edition of the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Al-Arabi featured an interview with Dr. Nabil Hilmi, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Al-Zaqaziq who, together with a group of Egyptian expatriates in Switzerland, is preparing an enormous lawsuit against "all the Jews of the world." The following are excerpts from the interview: (1) _Group of Egyptians to Sue 'All Worldwide Jews' Over "Theft of Pharoah's Gold" (No Joke)_ (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/968584/posts) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/8e82012c/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Mar 16 14:35:38 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:35:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <054301c9a66e$6435a360$2ca0ea20$@com> Thanks Hez! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 3:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] More from the "you really can't make this stuff up.." Here you go,Patty. Special Dispatch - Egypt August 22, 2003 No. 556 (Translated from Arabic Language Sources) Egyptian Jurists to Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation for 'Trillions' of Tons of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt The August 9, 2003 edition of the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Al-Arabi featured an interview with Dr. Nabil Hilmi, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Al-Zaqaziq who, together with a group of Egyptian expatriates in Switzerland, is preparing an enormous lawsuit against "all the Jews of the world." The following are excerpts from the interview: (1) Group of Egyptians to Sue 'All Worldwide Jews' Over "Theft of Pharoah's Gold" (No Joke) _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/44c7a7f8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 15:56:05 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Quick Quote Message-ID: <855590370903161356q49b9e1e2ve5c4bfafb4f03d6a@mail.gmail.com> Here's a quick quote I just saw: * Hanoch* Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, Likutei Mohoran, I:7 A lack of emunah [faith] perpetuates the Diaspora and exile. Enhanced emunah hastens the full redemption of our people. CHRONOLOGY: born 1772, died 1810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/73baa026/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Mon Mar 16 16:01:12 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:01:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <855590370903160910u49a77640r40c7db7b2a375c1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> <855590370903160910u49a77640r40c7db7b2a375c1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BEBE18.2090104@gninc.ca> Thank you Hanoch. It might even happen sooner than that I would meet you in New York. I just don't get to go to New York. But Israel !!! That could happen, that is if they would allow a goy like me in????? Cornie Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey Cornie! > > Regards from the Big Apple!! Five more months until I go HOME, > come visit me then, okay? :-) > */ Hanoch > /* > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Cornie Reimer > wrote: > > So true. Amen > > Cornie > > > > > stephen wrote: > > Hanoch, > > The illustration on the deer reminded me of: > > As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul > after thee, O God. > Psalm 42:1 > > illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are > not true leaders > or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The > leader buck being the > LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! > > Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. > > Stephen > > "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than > wolves? When a > thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of > water, the bucks > first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the > fawns drink > before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck > is the last one > to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared > for. It's > worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness > such an > inspiring sight. > > *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate > of the young. > When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first > allowed to > partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after > they've had their > fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" > > http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/e49d6700/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 16:18:12 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <49BEBE18.2090104@gninc.ca> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> <855590370903160910u49a77640r40c7db7b2a375c1e@mail.gmail.com> <49BEBE18.2090104@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <855590370903161418h7f3087e6y9f97fae2539affb1@mail.gmail.com> Hey Cornie - You let me know when you're coming, and I'll be at the airport to greet you!! Ben Gurion airport that is.....five more months and counting....B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help)! *Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote: > Thank you Hanoch. It might even happen sooner than that I would meet you in > New York. I just don't get to go to New York. But Israel !!! That could > happen, that is if they would allow a goy like me in????? > > Cornie > > > > Hanoch Young wrote: > > Hey Cornie! > > Regards from the Big Apple!! Five more months until I go HOME, come > visit me then, okay? :-) > * Hanoch > * > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Cornie Reimer wrote: > > So true. Amen > > Cornie > > > > stephen wrote: > > Hanoch, > > The illustration on the deer reminded me of: > > As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, > O God. > Psalm 42:1 > > illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking HaShem are not true > leaders > or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The leader buck being > the > LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! > > Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. > > Stephen > > "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster than wolves? When > a > thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source of water, the > bucks > first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure that the fawns drink > before they partake of the water themselves. The leader buck is the last > one > to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is cared for. It's > worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to witness such an > inspiring sight. > > *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely considerate of the > young. > When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are first allowed to > partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only after they've had > their > fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" > > > http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/25e1eb48/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Mon Mar 16 16:35:18 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:35:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Deer, Hanoch's illustration curtesy of Rav Lazer Brody In-Reply-To: <855590370903161418h7f3087e6y9f97fae2539affb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <49BE6054.49C0A.35A4@pop.directnic.com> <5BECE4B298A943E48C93E6D46C22650C@SEWVAC011> <49BE7944.9090404@gninc.ca> <855590370903160910u49a77640r40c7db7b2a375c1e@mail.gmail.com> <49BEBE18.2090104@gninc.ca> <855590370903161418h7f3087e6y9f97fae2539affb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BEC616.6070104@gninc.ca> Hanoch: I'll keep that in mind thank you, and I'm sure you will get settled before that happens. May it all work out for the best for you. Cornie Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey Cornie - > > You let me know when you're coming, and I'll be at the airport to > greet you!! Ben Gurion airport that is.....five more months and > counting....B'Ezrat HaShem (With G-d's help)! > */ Hanoch > /* > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Cornie Reimer > wrote: > > Thank you Hanoch. It might even happen sooner than that I would > meet you in New York. I just don't get to go to New York. But > Israel !!! That could happen, that is if they would allow a goy > like me in????? > > Cornie > > > > Hanoch Young wrote: >> Hey Cornie! >> >> Regards from the Big Apple!! Five more months until I go >> HOME, come visit me then, okay? :-) >> */ Hanoch >> /* >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Cornie Reimer > > wrote: >> >> So true. Amen >> >> Cornie >> >> >> >> >> stephen wrote: >> >> Hanoch, >> >> The illustration on the deer reminded me of: >> >> As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my >> soul after thee, O God. >> Psalm 42:1 >> >> illustrating for me, anyway, that "leaders" seeking >> HaShem are not true leaders >> or trully seeking, unless they also seek for others. The >> leader buck being the >> LAST one to drink, in the illustration you shared... I loved! >> >> Hart in the dictionary came up, male deer. >> >> Stephen >> >> "Have you ever wondered why deer multiply so much faster >> than wolves? When a >> thirsty clan of deer arrives at a stream or other source >> of water, the bucks >> first allow the does to drink, and the does make sure >> that the fawns drink >> before they partake of the water themselves. The leader >> buck is the last one >> to drink - he won't take a sip until the entire herd is >> cared for. It's >> worth roughing the outback for an entire month just to >> witness such an >> inspiring sight. >> >> *Deer adults - both bucks and does - are extremely >> considerate of the young. >> When a herd of deer reaches a lush meadow, the fawns are >> first allowed to >> partake of the most luscious and tender greens; only >> after they've had their >> fill, the rest of the herd grazes.*" >> >> http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/editorials/the_deer_and_the_wolves.aspx?id=11525&language=english >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/b05251ec/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 20:21:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:21:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed Message-ID: <855590370903161821v203ac818i155860039aa16143@mail.gmail.com> Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed TIME Magazine By *Tim McGirk / Jerusalem* Monday, Mar. 16, 2009 [image: A partial view of the Dead Sea Temple Scroll, which is nearly 4 yards long] A partial view of the Dead Sea Temple Scroll, which is nearly 4 yards long Michael Kappeler / AFP / Getty Biblical scholars have long argued that the Dead Sea Scrollswere the work of an ascetic and celibate Jewish community known as the Essenes, which flourished in the 1st century A.D. in the scorching desert canyons near the Dead Sea. Now a prominent Israeli scholar, Rachel Elior, disputes that the Essenes ever existed at all ? a claim that has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship. Elior, who teaches Jewish mysticism at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, claims that the Essenes were a fabrication by the 1st century A.D. Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus and that his faulty reporting was passed on as fact throughout the centuries. As Elior explains, the Essenes make no mention of themselves in the 900 scrolls found by a Bedouin shepherd in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, near the Dead Sea. "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls," Elior tells TIME. "But they didn't exist. This is legend on a legend." Elior contends that Josephus, a former Jewish priest who wrote his history while being held captive in Rome, "wanted to explain to the Romans that the Jews weren't all losers and traitors, that there were many exceptional Jews of religious devotion and heroism. You might say it was the first rebuttal to anti-Semitic literature." She adds, "He was probably inspired by the Spartans. For the Romans, the Spartans were the highest ideal of human behavior, and Josephus wanted to portray Jews who were like the Spartans in their ideals and high virtue." Early descriptions of the Essenes by Greek and Roman historians has them numbering in the thousands, living communally ("The first kibbutz," jokes Elior) and forsaking sex ? which goes against the Judaic exhortation to "go forth and multiply." Says Elior: "It doesn't make sense that you have thousands of people living against the Jewish law and there's no mention of them in any of the Jewish texts and sources of that period." So who were the real authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Elior theorizes that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by intriguing Greek rulers in 2nd century B.C. When they left, they took the source of their wisdom ? their scrolls ? with them. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century B.C. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century A.D. "The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping. Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world of biblical scholarship. James Charlesworth, director of the Dead Sea Scrolls project at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expert on Josephus, says it is not unusual that the word *Essenes* does not appear in the scrolls. "It's a foreign label," he tells TIME. "When they refer to themselves, it's as 'men of holiness' or 'sons of light.' " Charlesworth contends that at least eight scholars in antiquity refer to the Essenes. One proof of Essene authorship of the Dead Sea Scrolls, he says, is the large number of inkpots found by archaeologists at Qumran. But Elior claims says these ancient historians, namely Philo and Pliny the Elder, either borrowed from each other or retailed second-hand stories as fact. "Pliny the Elder describes the Essenes as 'choosing the company of date palms' beside the Dead Sea. We know Pliny was a great reader, but he probably never visited Israel," she says. Elior is braced for more criticism of her theory. "Usually my opponents have only read Josephus and the other classical references to the Essenes," she says. "They should read the Dead Sea Scrolls ? all 39 volumes. The proof is there." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/56c2bc40/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Mar 16 20:26:29 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:26:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed In-Reply-To: <855590370903161821v203ac818i155860039aa16143@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903161821v203ac818i155860039aa16143@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, this is making the news all over and is complete bunk. I will write on this topic on my Blog tomorrow morning (jamestabor.com/blog), if you are interested. I am too tired tonight to face it. It is a shame that TIME fell for this, and a surprise frankly, since David Van Biema, their main religion editor, is really well informed. Tim McGirk got really "girked" here. James On Mar 16, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never > Existed TIME Magazine > > By Tim McGirk / Jerusalem Monday, Mar. 16, 2009 > > A partial view of the Dead Sea Temple Scroll, which is nearly 4 > yards long > Michael Kappeler / AFP / Getty > Biblical scholars have long argued that the Dead Sea Scrolls were > the work of an ascetic and celibate Jewish community known as the > Essenes, which flourished in the 1st century A.D. in the scorching > desert canyons near the Dead Sea. Now a prominent Israeli scholar, > Rachel Elior, disputes that the Essenes ever existed at all ? a > claim that has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship. > > Elior, who teaches Jewish mysticism at Jerusalem's Hebrew > University, claims that the Essenes were a fabrication by the 1st > century A.D. Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus and that his > faulty reporting was passed on as fact throughout the centuries. As > Elior explains, the Essenes make no mention of themselves in the 900 > scrolls found by a Bedouin shepherd in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, > near the Dead Sea. "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying > to find the Essenes in the scrolls," Elior tells TIME. "But they > didn't exist. This is legend on a legend." > > Elior contends that Josephus, a former Jewish priest who wrote his > history while being held captive in Rome, "wanted to explain to the > Romans that the Jews weren't all losers and traitors, that there > were many exceptional Jews of religious devotion and heroism. You > might say it was the first rebuttal to anti-Semitic literature." She > adds, "He was probably inspired by the Spartans. For the Romans, the > Spartans were the highest ideal of human behavior, and Josephus > wanted to portray Jews who were like the Spartans in their ideals > and high virtue." > > Early descriptions of the Essenes by Greek and Roman historians has > them numbering in the thousands, living communally ("The first > kibbutz," jokes Elior) and forsaking sex ? which goes against the > Judaic exhortation to "go forth and multiply." Says Elior: "It > doesn't make sense that you have thousands of people living against > the Jewish law and there's no mention of them in any of the Jewish > texts and sources of that period." > > So who were the real authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Elior > theorizes that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a > priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by intriguing > Greek rulers in 2nd century B.C. When they left, they took the > source of their wisdom ? their scrolls ? with them. "In Qumran, the > remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the > early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century B.C. Until the > discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the > Old Testament dated back to the 9th century A.D. "The scrolls attest > to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that > the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping. > > Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world > of biblical scholarship. James Charlesworth, director of the Dead > Sea Scrolls project at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expert > on Josephus, says it is not unusual that the word Essenes does not > appear in the scrolls. "It's a foreign label," he tells TIME. "When > they refer to themselves, it's as 'men of holiness' or 'sons of > light.' " Charlesworth contends that at least eight scholars in > antiquity refer to the Essenes. One proof of Essene authorship of > the Dead Sea Scrolls, he says, is the large number of inkpots found > by archaeologists at Qumran. > > But Elior claims says these ancient historians, namely Philo and > Pliny the Elder, either borrowed from each other or retailed second- > hand stories as fact. "Pliny the Elder describes the Essenes as > 'choosing the company of date palms' beside the Dead Sea. We know > Pliny was a great reader, but he probably never visited Israel," she > says. > > Elior is braced for more criticism of her theory. "Usually my > opponents have only read Josephus and the other classical references > to the Essenes," she says. "They should read the Dead Sea Scrolls ? > all 39 volumes. The proof is there." > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/5e984075/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 16 20:41:22 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 01:41:22 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed In-Reply-To: References: <855590370903161821v203ac818i155860039aa16143@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031720090141.5600.49BEFFC200023654000015E022218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Good grief! Will people stop at nothing to make a name for themselves? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from James Tabor : -------------- Yes, this is making the news all over and is complete bunk. I will write on this topic on my Blog tomorrow morning (jamestabor.com/blog), if you are interested. I am too tired tonight to face it. It is a shame that TIME fell for this, and a surprise frankly, since David Van Biema, their main religion editor, is really well informed. Tim McGirk got really "girked" here. James On Mar 16, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed TIME Magazine By Tim McGirk / Jerusalem Monday, Mar. 16, 2009 A partial view of the Dead Sea Temple Scroll, which is nearly 4 yards long Michael Kappeler / AFP / Getty Biblical scholars have long argued that the Dead Sea Scrolls were the work of an ascetic and celibate Jewish community known as the Essenes, which flourished in the 1st century A.D. in the scorching desert canyons near the Dead Sea. Now a prominent Israeli scholar, Rachel Elior, disputes that the Essenes ever existed at all ? a claim that has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship. Elior, who teaches Jewish mysticism at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, claims that the Essenes were a fabrication by the 1st century A.D. Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus and that his faulty reporting was passed on as fact throughout the centuries. As Elior explains, the Essenes make no mention of themselves in the 900 scrolls found by a Bedouin shepherd in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, near the Dead Sea. "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls," Elior tells TIME. "But they didn't exist. This is legend on a legend." Elior contends that Josephus, a former Jewish priest who wrote his history while being held captive in Rome, "wanted to explain to the Romans that the Jews weren't all losers and traitors, that there were many exceptional Jews of religious devotion and heroism. You might say it was the first rebuttal to anti-Semitic literature." She adds, "He was probably inspired by the Spartans. For the Romans, the Spartans were the highest ideal of human behavior, and Josephus wanted to portray Jews who were like the Spartans in their ideals and high virtue." Early descriptions of the Essenes by Greek and Roman historians has them numbering in the thousands, living communally ("The first kibbutz," jokes Elior) and forsaking sex ? which goes against the Judaic exhortation to "go forth and multiply." Says Elior: "It doesn't make sense that you have thousands of people living against the Jewish law and there's no mention of them in any of the Jewish texts and sources of that period." So who were the real authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Elior theorizes that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by intriguing Greek rulers in 2nd century B.C. When they left, they took the source of their wisdom ? their scrolls ? with them. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century B.C. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century A.D. "The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping. Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world of biblical scholarship. James Charlesworth, director of the Dead Sea Scrolls project at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expert on Josephus, says it is not unusual that the word Essenes does not appear in the scrolls. "It's a foreign label," he tells TIME. "When they refer to themselves, it's as 'men of holiness' or 'sons of light.' " Charlesworth contends that at least eight scholars in antiquity refer to the Essenes. One proof of Essene authorship of the Dead Sea Scrolls, he says, is the large number of inkpots found by archaeologists at Qumran. But Elior claims says these ancient historians, namely Philo and Pliny the Elder, either borrowed from each other or retailed second-hand stories as fact. "Pliny the Elder describes the Essenes as 'choosing the company of date palms' beside the Dead Sea. We know Pliny was a great reader, but he probably never visited Israel," she says. Elior is braced for more criticism of her theory. "Usually my opponents have only read Josephus and the other classical references to the Essenes," she says. "They should read the Dead Sea Scrolls ? all 39 volumes. The proof is there." _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/0a823171/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Mon Mar 16 22:26:18 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:26:18 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] New Blog posting on Torah Reading Message-ID: My blog posting (as well as a printable PDF version) for VaYakheil / Pekudai - the Torah reading for this week is up on my site for those that are interested. _http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/) Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/e50fa3e8/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Mon Mar 16 22:34:44 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:34:44 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed Message-ID: Interesting article. I have a book by Rabbi Harvey Falk, an Orthodox Rabbi that says Based on Talmudic sources, when the School of Shammai gained control of the Jewish community (probably about 20 B.C.E.), the disciples of Hiliel and of his assistant Menahem left to join the Essenes . In the Talmud (Kiddushin Ch. 4) "the best of the physicians will go to hell" were referring to the Essenes. The Talmudic term for healer is Assia. (Toldot Ha'Adam). >From Wikipedia: According to a Jewish legend, one of the Essenes, named Menachem, had passed at least some of his mystical knowledge to the Talmudic mystic _Nehunya ben ha-Kanah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehunya_ben_ha-Kanah) ,_[10]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes#cite_note-Kaplan-9) to whom the _Kabbalistic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah) tradition attributes _Sefer ha-Bahir_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahir) and, by some opinions, _Sefer ha-Kanah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sefer_ha-Kanah&action=edit&redlink=1) , _Sefer ha-Peliah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sefer_ha-Peliah&action=edit&redlink=1) and _Sefer ha-Temunah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sefer_ha-Temunah&action=edit&redlink=1) . Some Essene rituals, such as daily immersion in the _Mikvah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah) , coincide with contemporary _Hasidic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic) practices; some historians had also suggested, that name "Essene" is an hellenized form of the word "Hasidim" or "Hasin" ("pious ones"). However, the legendary connections between Essene and Kabbalistic tradition are not verified by modern historians. To bad some parts of history can only be assumption and legend, but then legends,unlike myths,are usually based on some half forgotten facts. Thanks once again for another fascinating article,Hanoch Shalom,Hez **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090316/fe7f1311/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 06:40:42 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:40:42 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Resources and websites (video's too) for Passover Message-ID: <855590370903170440g288c4bbeneacad69fd145f1d2@mail.gmail.com> 152 Passover Educational Hotsites and 80 Cool Passover YouTube Video Posted by: "Jacob Richman" jrichman at jr.co.il jrichman1999 Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:34 am (PDT) Hi Everyone! This year Passover begins on Wednesday night, April 8, 2009. I posted on my website 152 links about Passover, ranging from laws and customs to games and recipes. Site languages include English, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, French, Portugese, Italian and German. All 152 links have been reviewed / checked this week. The web address is: http://www.jr.co..il/hotsites/j-hdaypa.htm and...... I gathered links to 80 cool Passover videos on YouTube. Enjoy the videos at: http://www.jr.co.il/videos/passover-videos.htm Please forward this message to family and friends, so they may benefit from these holiday resources. An early Happy Passover! Jacob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/ad997469/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 07:22:28 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:22:28 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Who's really defending Israel?" Message-ID: <855590370903170522j520ac6cy73f9138a2cc4f189@mail.gmail.com> Tuesday, 17 March 2009 Rav Lazer Brody Who's really defending Israel? At this moment, there's no government in Israel except for the chaos of a really lame duck with no mandate to do a thing. 50,000 Islamofascist missiles are aimed at Israel. The Iron Dome anti-ballistic missile system doesn't yet work and will probably be obsolete by the time it's ready. So what stops Hamas, Hizbulla, Iran, and Syria from pushing the red buttons? Hashem, in His magnificent lovingkindness is our true and only power of deterrence, as you'll hear in our weekly Emuna update on Israel National Radio with Tamar Yonah Click here: Lazer Beams Israel National Radio with Tamar Yonah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/280402e2/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 17 07:29:55 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:29:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Who's really defending Israel?" Message-ID: I think that even if someone didn't believe in Hashem and read this, they would have to have second thoughts. Just looking at the wars and interactions between 1948 and now should do it. To quote the piece, " So what stops Hamas, Hizbulla, Iran, and Syria from pushing the red buttons?" It sure isn't their concern about what a world that could care less about whether we live or die would say about it. Yasher koach on sending this out, Hez **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/72c8c1c5/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 07:46:43 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:46:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Intelligence and the anti-Israel lobby" Message-ID: <855590370903170546s7ff3fe38s1936d2a326a6818e@mail.gmail.com> *Intelligence and the anti-Israel lobby* Caroline Glick - Mar 12, 2009 The Jerusalem Post Ill winds are blowing out of Washington these days. On Thursday, The Washington Post headline blared, "Intelligence Pick Blames `Israel Lobby` for Withdrawal." The article, by Walter Pincus, described how former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia Charles "Chas" Freeman is blaming Israel`s Jewish American supporters for his resignation Tuesday from his post as chairman of the National Intelligence Council. In a diatribe published on Foreign Policy`s Web site on Wednesday, Freeman accused the alleged "Israel Lobby" of torpedoing his appointment. In his words, "The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency... The aim of this Lobby is control of the policy process through the exercise of a veto over the appointment of people who dispute the wisdom of its views... and the exclusion of any and all options for decision by Americans and our government other than those that it favors." He continued, "I believe that the inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for US policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics has allowed that faction to adopt and sustain policies that ultimately threaten the existence of the State of Israel. It is not permitted for anyone in the United States to say so. This is not just a tragedy for Israelis and their neighbors in the Middle East; it is doing widening damage to the national security of the United States." The Washington Post`s article quoted liberally from Freeman`s diatribe. It also identified the Jewish Americans who wrote against Freeman`s appointment, and insinuated that AIPAC - which took no stand on his appointment - actually worked behind the scenes to undermine it. While it described in lurid detail how one anti-Freeman Jewish blogger quoted other anti-Freeman Jewish bloggers on his Web site, Pincus`s article failed to report what it was about Freeman that caused the Jewish cabal to criticize his appointment. Consequently, by default, Pincus effectively endorsed Freeman`s diatribe against the all-powerful "Israel Lobby." Pincus`s reportorial malpractice wouldn`t have been so problematic if his article had just been one of many articles in the Washington Post about Freeman`s appointment. But, like The New York Times, the first mention the Washington Post made of the story was on Tuesday, after Freeman announced his resignation. The Washington Post`s news editor, Douglas Jehl, admitted that a conscious decision had been made to ignore the story. In an e-mail published in the Weekly Standard Jehl wrote, "We did initially elect not to write a story about the campaign against Mr. Freeman." As the Standard`s Stephen Hayes notes, Jehl`s statement is notable because it shows that he and colleagues never considered whether Freeman`s record was newsworthy in and of itself. That is, they never asked whether the controversy surrounding it was justified. Had they asked that question, perhaps they would have reconsidered their decision to ignore the story. Freeman was a career US diplomat until his retirement in the mid-1990s. He served as ambassador to Saudi Arabia during the first Bush administration. In his memoirs, former secretary of state James Baker claimed that in that position, Freeman was afflicted by "clientitis." Instead of advancing US interests with the Saudis, Freeman championed Saudi interests to the US government. In 1997, Freeman became president of the Saudi-funded Middle East Policy Council. There Freeman continued his outspoken support for Saudi positions against the US. In January 2009, for instance, he praised Saudi King Abdullah for coercing the second Bush administration into supporting Palestinian statehood. Freeman castigated the Bush administration as "the world`s first genuinely autistic government." Then he bragged that it was only due to Abdullah`s "threat... to downgrade relations with the United States," that the administration finally announced its support for Palestinian statehood. According to financial records made public in recent weeks, the Middle East Policy Council has received millions of dollars from the Saudi government and royal family over the past several years. Saudi Arabia is not the only country with interests and values that conflict with US interests and values that Freeman has championed and earned a living from. Until accepting his appointment as chairman of the National Intelligence Council, Freeman was a paid member of the Chinese government-owned China National Offshore Oil Company`s international advisory board. CNOOC has been the target of a US Treasury probe due to its multi-billion dollar contract with Iran to develop the South Pars gas field. As with the case of Saudi Arabia, Freeman`s political sympathies go hand in hand with his financial ties. In a list-serve e-mail in 2006, Freeman criticized the Beijing Politburo for being too lax with the pro-democracy demonstrators in Tiananmen Square in 1989. As he put it, "the truly unforgivable mistake of the Chinese authorities was the failure to intervene on a timely basis to nip the demonstrations in the bud." As Martin Cramer, Steven Rosen and other Jewish writers have noted in their reporting on Freeman in recent weeks, Freeman`s positions on Israel closely mirror the Saudi Foreign Ministry`s positions. So it is that in 2006, for instance, Freeman blamed US ties with Israel for the September 11, 2001, attacks. As he put it, "We have paid heavily and often in treasure for our unflinching support and unstinting subsidies of Israel`s approach to managing its relations with the Arabs. Five years ago, we began to pay with the blood of our citizens here at home." Then, too, like the Saudi government, Freeman argues that Arab terrorism against the US is solely a consequence of US support for Israel. Were the US to abandon its alliance with Israel, all Arab terror against the US would stop. DESPITE PINCUS`S attempt to hide it, the main reason Freeman`s appointment was controversial was not the opposition it garnered among pro-Israel American Jews. The main controversy surrounding his appointment as the Obama administration`s top intelligence analyst revolved around his financial and political ties to potential and actual US adversaries. Indeed, according to Newsweek, it was these connections - and specifically Freeman`s ties to the Chinese Politburo - that scuppered his appointment. According to Newsweek, the White House withdrew its support for Freeman because House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was angered by his support for Beijing`s repression of Chinese democracy activists, which she described as "beyond the pale." Freeman`s animus towards Israel apparently played no role in the White House`s decision to show him the door. Whatever the reason for his resignation, it is a good thing that Freeman was forced to resign. It is a very good thing that the man writing the US`s National Intelligence Estimates and briefing the president on intelligence matters is not a hired gun for the Saudi and Chinese governments who believes that Jewish Americans have no right to participate in public debate about US foreign policy. But while his appointment was foiled, the fact that a man like Freeman was even considered for the post tells us two deeply disturbing things about the climate in Washington these days. First and foremost, Freeman`s appointment gives us disconcerting information about how the Obama administration intends to relate to intelligence. Freeman was appointed by Adm. Dennis Blair, president Barack Obama`s director of national intelligence. Blair stood by Freeman`s appointment even after information became known about his financial ties to foreign governments and his extreme views on Israel and American Jews were exposed. Blair repeatedly extolled Freeman for his willingness to stake out unpopular positions. On Tuesday, Blair appeared before the Senate Armed Services Committee. There he answered questions about Freeman and about Iran`s nuclear weapons program. Just as he defended Freeman, so Blair defended the Islamic republic. He claimed that there is no way to infer from Iran`s satellite program that it is expanding the range of its ballistic missiles. He claimed that just because Iran is enriching uranium, there is no reason to believe that the mullahs are interested in building a bomb. That is, America`s top intelligence officer is willing to take Iran`s word on everything. On the other hand, he isn`t willing to take Israel`s word on anything. Although he acknowledged that his nonchalant assessment of Iran was based on the same information as Israel`s dire assessment of Iran, Blair scoffed at Israel`s views, claiming that they are colored by the Jewish state`s fears. In his words, "The Israelis are far more concerned about it, and they take more of a worst-case approach to these things from their point of view." What Blair`s staunch championing of Freeman`s appointment and his casualness regarding Iran`s nuclear program indicates is that like Freeman, he assumes the best of America`s adversaries and the worst of its friends. This approach to intelligence analysis will be destructive not just for the US`s relations with its allies, but for America`s own national security. THE SECOND disturbing development exposed by Freeman`s appointment is the emergence of a very committed and powerful anti-Israel lobby in Washington. In the past, while anti-Israel politicians, policy-makers and opinion-shapers were accepted in Washington, they would not have felt comfortable brandishing their anti-Israel positions as a qualifying credential for high position. Freeman`s appointment shows that this is no longer the case. Today in Washington, there are powerful circles of political players for whom a person`s anti-Israel bona fides are his strongest suit. In the weeks since Freeman`s appointment first came under scrutiny, his defenders have highlighted his hatred of Israel as the reason for their support for him. Just as Pincus`s post-mortem write-up of Freeman`s appointment and resignation barely mentioned his ties to Saudi Arabia and China, and focused on Jews who opposed his appointment, so in recent weeks, his defenders - both non-Jewish and Jewish - have highlighted his hatred of Israel and its American supporters as the primary reason for defending it. The likes of Steven Walt, M.J. Rosenberg and Matthew Iglesias didn`t try to explain why Freeman was right to support the suppression of freedom in China. They didn`t support his claim that the Saudi king is among the most profound and thoughtful leaders in the world. They didn`t repeat his assertion that the US had the September 11 attacks coming to it. They felt that the fact that he raised the hackles of Americans who support Israel was reason enough to support him. Whether his views on other issues are reasonable or not was of no interest to them. >From September 11, to Russia`s invasion of Georgia, from Hamas`s victory in the 2006 Palestinian elections to the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate that claimed Iran ended its nuclear weapons program in 2003, it is clear that in recent years, the US intelligence community has regularly substituted wishful thinking for true analysis. Freeman`s appointment and the emergence of the anti-Israel lobby as a major force in Washington policy circles show that turning the US away from Israel has become a key component of that wishful thinking. 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/dc476b8b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 07:53:09 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:53:09 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Wouldn't YOU do the same thing?? Message-ID: <855590370903170553v64d3a539w1a3643c2aa6f966f@mail.gmail.com> It's about time!!! * Hanoch* 'We'll Kill Freed Terrorists,' Brothers Warn Adar 20, 5769, 16 March 09 05:49 by by Maayana Miskin (IsraelNN.com) Many Israelis who have lost loved ones to terrorist attacks have protested the government's plan to release terrorists who have murdered in exchange for kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit. On Monday, brothers Meir and Shvuel Schijveschuuder issued an ultimatum: If the terrorists are freed, bereaved families will take the law into their own hands and kill the terrorists in revenge. The brothers announced their plan to the world in an interview with the Hebrew-language daily *Yediot Acharonot*. The interview was printed on Monday morning. The Schijveschuuder family was decimated in the 2001 bombing of the Sbarro restaurant in downtown Jerusalem. Parents Mordechai and Tzira were killed, as were 14-year-old Ra'aya, four-year-old Avraham Yitzchak and two-year-old Hemda. Meir and Shvuel made it clear that they would go after all released killers, and not only those who attacked their family. ?The plan is to reach each and every one who has Jewish blood on his hands and to give them a field trial ? the meaning should be clear,? Shvuel said. The brothers' announcement angered some bereaved families and delighted others. In the latter camp was Ze'ev Rap, whose 15-year-old daughter Helena was murdered by a terrorist in 1992. ?I'm ready to help them and teach them how to do it,? he said. ?Whoever signs an order releasing my daughter's murderer is signing his fate... He will not leave Israel's borders alive,? Rap added. Rap rejected accusations that those who threatened revenge were ignoring the rule of law. The politicians planning to release terrorists are ignoring the law, he alleged. ?These murderers were sentenced in court. Who are the prime minister and the defense minister to violate a court order?... On the day the terrorists are released there will be no law and order in this country; it will be the 'Wild West.'? Meir and Shvuel also denied that they were breaking the law. ?We will act within the framework of the law of the land,? they said. ?In the Palestinian Authority they go by the rule of 'an eye for an eye,' so we won't be breaking any law.? www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/312657bc/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Tue Mar 17 08:41:01 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:41:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch, deer, daughters References: <49BE8378.4AD81.2BE@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <74E0D6F338AC4345AA64A228CE46BBC7@SEWVAC011> Hanoch, Just had one of my grown daughters visit. I have an Abigail [ source of father's Joy ] middle name Megan [ strength ] and she IS a strong woman, and also a source of joy. My youngest Anna-Lisa [ grace, gracious ] was visiting, and she is definitely a gracious young lady with a honey pot of Grace on her personality. My wife and I did name them with thoughtful meditation... really makes you wonder about this name thing. I remember something about Abram becoming Abraham.. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. >From Genesis 17:5 So we do have an Example, of giving thought to what we name our children. I just know, I am not that socially adept, don't always talk that well, but when my baby gave me a hug and wouldn't let go, tears welled up in the soul... when your child tells you they love you, and you know they mean it... something very beautiful. And should not our Creator hear that from us, His children... that we would bring Joy to His heart. I think of the interview done with James, how he described the relation between G-d and Abraham, where Abraham is called a Friend of G-d, and the sense being Abraham my love, and almost Abraham my lover.... Shalom, I appreciate your love for your children, in the symbolism of the deer. Very much so. Stephen ********* Hey Stephen, Yeah, I know what you mean. At first glance it's a sweet story (Rav Lazer shares many of them), but when I thought about on the deeper level - the analogies are SO strong!! The deer has always had a very strong symbolism for me, too. Which is why I named my eldest, Ayala - female deer. I tried to keep the analogy going when I named her sister Kyra, which is from Yakyra - dear. Although only one letter apart, it's not quite the same! :-) And the "who gets to drink first" test of leadership is a real good one.... Best regards, *Hanoch ************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/456ab98c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:11:06 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:11:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, what Arab MK has 'loyalty' to Israel? Message-ID: <855590370903170811o65ab3a9x373c8ea2a9dca8ff@mail.gmail.com> I just love Michael Ben-Ari (Ichud HaLeumi - National Union)!!! * Hanoch* *Ben-Ari Wishes Arab MK 'Loyalty' Israel National News (Arutz-7) *by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz Following the maiden Knesset speech by parliamentarian Afou Agbaria of the Communist Hadash party on Monday, Ichud Leumi (National Union) MK Michael Ben-Ari offered his colleague a unique blessing - loyalty to Israel. In his address to the plenum, MK Agbaria, a resident of Umm El-Fahm, angrily charged that there are those "who view me and my Arab colleagues as a nuisance that needs to be removed from the Israeli parliament." He also noted that there were some who call for the Arab MKs to be expelled, to be "disposed of" as if they were "garbage." Agbaria likely had in mind the comments of MK Michael Ben-Ari in his own premier Knesset speech two weeks ago, when Arab MKs demonstratively walked out of the hall. Ben-Ari said at the time that he hoped the walkout was "a sign of things to come. Soon we should merit to see them not only leaving the hall, but leaving the entire Israeli Knesset." The next MK to speak after Agbaria was Ben-Ari, for whom it was the third time he took the Knesset podium. As per parliamentary custom, ironically, it fell to the Ichud Leumi representative to offer a welcome blessing to Agbaria following the new MK's first speech before the legislature. "May your entry into the Knesset cause you to become loyal to the people of Israel and the Land of Israel," Ben-Ari said to Agbaria. The next time that IDF soldiers are fighting to defend the citizens of Israel, the Ichud Leumi member added, may Agbaria "identify with them - and not protest against them." Ben-Ari's wish for Agbaria has, at least officially, already been given lip service. The oath to which incoming MKs offer their verbal assent reads: "I pledge myself to bear allegiance to the State of Israel and faithfully to discharge my mandate in the Knesset." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/53c63b78/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Tue Mar 17 10:34:17 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:34:17 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, what Arab MK has 'loyalty' to Israel? Message-ID: The number of Arab MK's loyal to Israel is equal to the number of chicken lips for sale at my local kosher market.With decades of treachery concerning any and every agreement, what would make anyone think it will change? Kahane was right. Thanks again,Hez **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/49ddbc7f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:16:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:16:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Non-Jewish Cabinet Post? Message-ID: <855590370903171316k50826446v3e19cb28716141fc@mail.gmail.com> Just so everyone knows, the World Biblical Zionist organization is planning on Druze Knesset member, Ayob Kara (featured below) to help get them into Israel (using 'Agricultural Worker' visas which had been used in the past for Thai and Filipino laborers. It's also through Kara that they want to use a pre-military academy (which they advertise), which the Druze already have in operation. Trying to get into Israel "through the backdoor" will harm the Ephramite cause irreparably. But what would I know about how to do things in Israel, right? * Hanoch* Kara Wants a Non-Jewish Minister*March 17, 2009* Likud MK Ayoub Kara, a ten-year veteran of the Knesset, is continuing his effort to have a member of the Druse community appointed to a cabinet post. In another press conference, Kara once again raised the issue of a Druse minister, stressing the contribution the community has made to the Jewish state. Kara, himself a major in the IDF, states the Druse citizens have proven their loyalty to the state, have paid dearly with their sons who fell in defense of the nation, and should receive a cabinet post, pointing out that previous administrations have already set the precedent. (*Yechiel Spira ? YWN Israel*) Yeshiva World News -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/383125dc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:29:14 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:29:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Where is Their Strength?" Message-ID: <855590370903171329w3911536cq1e079de716127e69@mail.gmail.com> It wasn't too long ago that we would have gone and knocked their teeth out. Now, we cower....sighh.... * Hanoch* Where is Their Strength? Adar 20, 5769, 16 March 09 11:02 by by Marc Prowisor (IsraelNN.com) What happened to Jewish pride and strength in North America? I read and watch how there is constant anti-Israel and anti-Jewish activities on almost every American college campus. Israel Apartheid Week, demonstrations against Operation Cast Lead, the incident at York University in Toronto in which Jews had to take refuge while the crowd outside shouted, "Die Jew" - all should wake someone up. What has happened to the Jews living outside of Israel? Why are they behaving like Jews in pre-World War II Germany? In classic Arab behavior, the weak are always attacked and exploited; we in Israel learned this and decided to fight back. Of course, the results are what's known as the "Arab-Israeli problem", or "what happens when Jews defend themselves". But the weakened state of the Jews of the Diaspora is becoming alarming. Throughout the world, anti-Jewish attacks are on the rise and the Jews are becoming quite the victim again. Equipped with nothing but ignorance regarding Israel, most US students are forced to fall back, to hide under an Arab-led onslaught. The concept of standing up to defend themselves is as foreign to those Jews as true peace with Israel is to our Arab neighbors. The major Jewish organizations take little action to watch out for their own, finding that it is better lie quiet and not make waves. Apparently, history is for speculation and not for learning, as lessons from the past are being wasted in the apathy of the present. The supposed cause of the anti-Israel demonstrations this year was the recent action in Gaza. Of course, with the Israeli reason for acting totally ignored, once again we see the truth perverted by enemies of Israel and turned against the Jews of the Diaspora. There seem to be only two choices, fight back for your own rights to live quietly and think freely, or move to Israel. I don't expect the majority of Diaspora Jews to move to Israel, but I would hope they at least stand up for themselves. If I lived in the US, I would expect the major Jewish Federations to do something about the present situation. The voices against Jews will only grow louder; and it is a matter of time before violent acts join the verbal assault. Over the last few years, US leadership has been bending over backward to appease Muslim governments and the Muslim population of the US. Compromises in US security policy have become common practice, causing serious leaks and new threats daily. It seems, at this point, that this policy will continue and become more biased against the Jewish population in the US. Condoleezza Rice's imbalanced policies seem to continue under the present administration, as more and more "Islamic friendly" staff are being added on, with Israel being thought of as more of a bother than a loyal friend and ally. Add the economic situation and you have quite a bad recipe for the near future. As reality in the US stands to change, it would be wise for US Jewry to regroup and rethink their policies and politics. Lying quiet and blending with our enemies has proven to be a mistake, as we see among European Jewry - it is already on its way out, with the new Muslim presence making their lives difficult. With this as a sign of what is to come in the US, it would be wise to prepare for the "change". The throngs will try to use Israel against you; try to remember where they come from. Ask about the human rights in their home countries, how their women are respected, and then delve into the pleasures of Shari'a (Muslim law). Find out just how much democracy exists in Arab lands and what happens when you disagree. When they mention "Israel Apartheid Week", tell them to look in a mirror and then take a deep look into Israeli society. When you get some answers, ask what happened to the Jewish communities throughout the Middle East (and maybe you will get an insight into how they view you, really). Maybe the demonstrations against Israel should be redirected against the real villains of Western society and freedom. If the Jews living in North America value their lifestyles and wish to continue on a positive note, then it is time they take action to preserve themselves and their identity. Selling out to the enemies of the Jewish nation will only continue to weaken them. A strong United States is going to need a strong Israel, and a strong Jewish community in the US needs a strong Israel, the alternative will only bring about disaster. Don't fall victim to the lies of our enemies. Be strong, be educated and be proud, you owe it to your children. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/2c127d45/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:35:21 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] US Corporate complicity with the Nazis Message-ID: <855590370903171335i3a8a38do9bfa0919f75e71d1@mail.gmail.com> Op-Ed: *American corporate complicity created undeniable Nazi nexus* By Edwin Black ? March 12, 2009 NEW YORK (JTA) -- Adolf Hitler was completely responsible for the Holocaust. But Hitler had help. When zealous Nazis waged war against an imaginary generation-to-generation Jewish conspiracy; when Nazis created ghastly extermination plans to help ensure their master race would rule the world; when the German military smashed across Europe with lightning speed in heavy Blitz trucks; when Mengele undertook heinous medical experiments on twins in Auschwitz; and when the Reich identified the Jews everywhere in Europe and then systematically pauperized and destroyed them -- when all these terrible things were done, the shape and scope of the horror was pivotally determined by major American industrial giants. Now the dots can be connected. They create an undeniably Nazi nexus between iconic American corporations and the greatest crime of the 20th century: the Holocaust. Henry Ford, acting directly through the Ford Motor Company, virtually invented political anti-Semitism when he published worldwide the fake "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Ford?s book quickly became the bible of German anti-Semites and early incarnations of the Nazi party. Nazis shipped the work throughout the country ?by the carload.? Among the many Germans massively influenced by the book was Adolf Hitler. Der Fuehrer read the work at least two years before "Mein Kampf" was written. In "Mein Kampf," Hitler wrote, ?The whole existence of this people is based on a continuous lie [as] shown incomparably by the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion.' ? The Carnegie Institution, the philanthropic incarnation of America?s greatest steel fortune, propagated the deadly American race science of eugenics that idealized a blond, blue-eyed superior race. In pursuit of that dream, Carnegie scientists believed some 90 percent of humanity was to be eliminated using various methods. These methods included organized identification, seizure of assets, marriage prohibition or nullification, forced surgical sterilization, segregation into camps and publicly operated gas chambers. Carnegie spent millions to propagate American eugenic theories in post-World War I Germany, financing race science programs in universities and official institutions. While in prison, Hitler closely studied American eugenics. He proudly told his comrades, ?I have studied with great interest the laws of several American states concerning prevention of reproduction by people whose progeny would, in all probability, be of no value or be injurious to the racial stock.? Hitler was so steeped in American race science that he even wrote a fan letter to American eugenic leader Madison Grant, called his writing ?my bible.? Der Fuehrer merely exchanged the American term ?Nordic? for the Nazi term ?Aryan" and then medicalized his pre-existing virulent anti-Semitism and fascist nationalism to formulate the concept of the blond, blue-eyed Master Race he deified in "Mein Kampf." As Hitler?s deputy Rudolf Hess insisted, ?National Socialism is nothing but applied biology.? The Rockefeller Foundation, the philanthropic incarnation of Standard Oil, acted as a full partner with Carnegie in establishing eugenics in Germany. In the quest to perfect the master race, millions of Depression-era dollars were transmitted by Rockefeller to Hitler?s most anti-Jewish doctors. In this quest, one specimen was desired above all: twins. Rockefeller funded Hitler?s chief raceologist, Otmar Verschuer, and his insatiable twin experimentation programs. Twins, it was thought, held the secret to industrially multiplying the Aryan racial type and quickly subtracting biological undesirables. Verschuer had an assistant, Josef Mengele. Rockefeller funding stopped during World War II, but by that time Mengele had transferred into Auschwitz to continue twin research in a monstrous fashion. Ever the eugenicist, he sent precise clinical reports weekly to Verschuer. >From the first weeks of the Third Reich, General Motors president Alfred Sloan committed the company and its German division Opel to motorizing a substantially horse-drawn Germany, preparing it for war. Prior to this, Germany had been a nation devoted to legendary automotive engineering but only one vehicle at a time, built by craftsman. GM brought mass production to the Reich, converting it from a horse-drawn threat to a motorized powerhouse. Sloan and GM knowingly prepared the Wehrmacht to wage war in Europe. GM built the Blitz truck for the Blitzkrieg. Detroit even secretly moved massive stores of spare Blitz parts to the Polish border in the days just before the Sept. 1, 1939 invasion to facilitate the Blitzkrieg. Using a charade of interlocking boards and executive committees, Sloan kept GM?s role secret as long as possible. Internal Business Machines, inventor of the Hollerith punch card, precursor to the modern computer, custom-designed and co-planned the Nazi solutions to Jewish existence. IBM enjoyed a monopoly on information technology. Under the micromanagement of its president, Thomas Watson, while advertising itself as ?a solutions company,? IBM in 1933 reached out to the new Hitler regime. It offered to organize and systemize any solution the Reich desired, including solutions to the Jewish problem. With IBM as a partner, the Hitler regime was able to substantially automate and accelerate all six phases of the 12-year Holocaust: identification, exclusion, confiscation, ghettoization, deportation and even extermination. As it did with any other customer, IBM simply asked the Hitler regime what result was desired. Then company engineers devised custom-tailored punch card systems to deliver those results. There was an IBM customer site in every concentration camp. Machines were serviced monthly, sometimes weekly, by IBM on site -- whether that site was Auschwitz or downtown Berlin. Had it not been for the continued conscious involvement of iconic American corporations in Hitler?s war against the Jews, the speed, shape and statistics of the Holocaust as we know it would have been dramatically different. No one knows how different, but the astronomical dimensions could have never been achieved. For their part, American corporate collaborators have long tried to obscure or hide the details of their collusion using the well-known tools of corporate misinformation, financial contributions, and bought and paid for historian reviews. But in an era when people no longer believe big corporations, the dots can be fully connected to unveil the outlines of an indispensible Nazi nexus. The words ?never again? must resound not just among the victims, but within board rooms of corporate perpetrators.* * *Edwin Black is The New York Times best-selling investigative author of "IBM and the Holocaust" and his just released book, "Nazi Nexus: America's Corporate Connections to Hitler's Holocaust" (Dialog Press). He can be reached at http://www.nazinexus.com.* [image: no image specified] Edwin Black is the award-winning, New York Times and international investigative author of 65 bestselling editions in 14 languages in 61 countries, as well as scores of newspaper and magazine articles in the leading publications of the United States, Europe and Israel. With a million books in print, his work focuses on genocide and hate, corporate criminality and corruption, governmental misconduct, academic fraud, philanthropy abuse, oil addiction, alternative energy and historical investigation. Editors have submitted Black's work ten times for Pulitzer Prize nomination, and in recent years he has been the recipient of a series of top editorial awards. He has also contributed to a number of anthologies worldwide. For his work, Black has been interviewed on hundreds of network broadcasts from Oprah, the Today Show, CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports and NBC Dateline in the US to the leading networks of Europe and Latin American. His works have been the subject of numerous documentaries, here and abroad. All of his books have been optioned by Hollywood for film, with three in active production. Black's speaking tours include hundreds of events in dozens of cities each year, appearing at prestigious venues from the Library of Congress in Washington to the Simon Wiesenthal Institute in Los Angeles in America, and in Europe from London's British War Museum and Amsterdam's Institute for War Documentation to Munich's Carl Orff Hall. He is the editor of The Cutting Edge News, which receives more than 1.5 million visits monthly. He is best known for the award-winning international bestseller, "IBM and the Holocaust." His just released book, "Nazi Nexus: America's Corporate Connections to Hitler's Holocaust," from Dialog Press. He can be reached at www.edwinblack.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/482cef44/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:39:40 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:39:40 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] No crosses at Western Wall Message-ID: <855590370903171339g1259e249v415dd7d451605c66@mail.gmail.com> It's ALWAYS good to remind the Catholics whose country Israel is... * Hanoch* Rabbi: No crosses at Western Wall March 17, 2009 JERUSALEM (JTA) -- It is not appropriate for the pope to wear a cross at the Western Wall, the rabbi in charge of the holy site said. Pope Benedict XVI is scheduled to visit Israel in May and visit the Western Wall. He wears a large cross at all public appearances. "My position is that it is not fitting to enter the Western Wall area with religious symbols, including a cross," Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch told the Jerusalem Post Monday. "I feel the same way about a Jew putting on a tallit and phylacteries and going into a church." The rabbi has refused to allow other Catholic leaders to visit the site after they refused to remove or hide their crosses. In 2000, Pope John Paul II visited the site with his cross visible. Israeli security forces also want to close the wall to worshipers beginning the night before and during the pope's visit, which Rabinovitch also disputes. "For the past 42 years, no one has ever been prevented from praying at the Western Wall and, God willing, no one ever will," Rabinovitch told the Jerusalem Post. "A solution needs to be reached that provides adequate security for the pope without infringing on the right of everyone to pray. The Western Wall belongs to everyone." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/599989da/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 17 16:03:30 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:03:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dead Sea Scrolls: From my Blog Today Message-ID: <363901BF-963C-4108-B633-38FD403C8AA8@earthlink.net> From my Blog today: see jamestabor.com/blog Since about noon yesterday my mailbox has been crammed with friends, associates, students, and colleagues asking if I had seen the latest breaking story on the Dead Sea Scrolls published by Time magazine and posted on their Web site. Until I looked I assumed this must be Time's follow-up on the bizarre saga of Raphael Gold, son of noted Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, Norman Gold, that I and about fifty other bibliobloggers had commented on last week. I could not have been more mistaken. The Time story, titled "Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed," was indeed bizarre, but it had nothing to do with the alleged criminal activities of Mr. Golb. Rather, it was a strange piece, authored by Tim McGirk, reporting on the theories of Hebrew University professor Rachel Elior regarding the non-existence of the "Essenes." This is all fine and good, and certainly Prof. Elior deserves and has received a hearing for her ideas. The problem is, according to McGirk, "Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world of biblical scholarship," and indeed "has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship." This is so ridiculous as to be laughable, but equally surprising, since one has come to expect the high quality of reporting on religion and the Bible in Time that one associates with the work of veteran religion editor David Van Biema. It would be interesting to know what "cloistered world" Mr. McGirk imagines exists among Dead Sea Scroll scholars and why he thinks Elior's ideas would be any kind of bedrock-shattering bombshell? At the end of the interview Prof. Elior braces herself for the attacks of her "opponents" whom she charges have not even read the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have no idea whom she has in mind, or what group of Dead Sea Scroll scholars she imagines out there who don't even read the original texts they work on! One might expect something like this from the National Enquirer or Star Magazine, but certainly not from Time. The issue itself is a fascinating one, and has been discussed in the most meticulous detail, with all viewpoints extensively aired and critiqued by those in the field. Two dominant issues have emerged: 1. Did the group that composed the sectarian documents collectively known as the Dead Sea Scrolls live at the ancient excavated settlement we know as Qumran? 2. Is the group that composed the sectarian documents collectively known as the Dead Sea Scrolls named or otherwise known to us in other textual sources from the late 2nd Temple period? By far the majority of scholars who work on the scrolls--and believe it or not, they have actually read them, are convinced that the Jewish group known and otherwise described as the "Essenes," by classical authors Josephus, Pliny the Elder, and Philo, is to be identified with the sectarian authors of the Scrolls, and that this group lived at Qumran. The reasons for this two-fold identification are abundant and the arguments are tried and tested. I would refer readers to two very outstanding summaries: James Vanderkam and Peter Flint, in The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Harper, 2002), chapter 10, titled "Identifying the Group Associated with Qumran," pp. 239-254. James H. Charlesworth, ed, Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Anchor/ Doubleday, 1992), "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Historical Jesus," pp. 1-74. Making this connection between how the Essenes are described ideally by authors such as Josephus, and the group's self-description in the Scrolls, in no way implies any kind of perfect or absolute correspondence. Josephus also describes the Pharisees and Sadducees, shaping his language to accommodate his Roman readers who were familiar with Stoics and Epicureans. Scholars have long recognized that Josephus puts the Essenes into a kind of Pythagorian garb, for apologetic purposes. But such stylistic descriptive genres and conventions have nothing to do with whether Jewish groups such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes, really existed. The question is not whether the "Essenes" wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls but whether the sectarian group reflected in the scrolls corresponds to the group called "Essenes," in the tendentious and idealistic literary descriptions of Josephus, Pliny, and Philo. In other words, if one wants to learn about the group who wrote the scrolls, one goes to the scrolls themselves. But that is not to say that the classical descriptions have no comparative value. In fact, when one looks at the parallels, summarized in the materials cited above by Vanderkam and Charlesworth, the similarities so far outweigh the differences that one would be hard pressed to imagine Josephus, who did not have the Scrolls, coming up with such a "make-believe" group. It is also noteworthy that various aspects of the "material" evidence from the Qumran settlement, for example, the all male cemetery, the latrines located to the northwest of the "camp," evidence of sacred meals, and the ritual pools leading into the segregated settlement, correspond to elements found in both the Scrolls as well as the literary descriptions of the Essenes. So far as the language the group that wrote the Scrolls used to describe itself, whether New Covenanters, the Yachad, or the Sons of Light, a good case can be made that "Essenes" is actually a Greek term for the Hebrew word "Ossim," that is, "Doers," namely the "Doers of the Torah." This seems to be a phrase known to Paul, as well as the related phrase "works of the Torah," in Romans 2 and Galatians 3. So all things considered the Time article is most unfortunate in that it implies, as so many sensational media stories dealing with the Bible and archeology do, that the "experts" are somehow either blinded by presuppositions or too invested in some status quo. In fact, so far as free and open exchange and debate of every possible viewpoint I would say the field of Dead Sea Scroll studies probably wins a prize. Anyway, for what it's worth, here is the Time article in full: Monday, Mar. 16, 2009 Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed By Tim McGirk / Jerusalem Biblical scholars have long argued that the Dead Sea Scrolls were the work of an ascetic and celibate Jewish community known as the Essenes, which flourished in the 1st century A.D. in the scorching desert canyons near the Dead Sea. Now a prominent Israeli scholar, Rachel Elior, disputes that the Essenes ever existed at all ? a claim that has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship. Elior, who teaches Jewish mysticism at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, claims that the Essenes were a fabrication by the 1st century A.D. Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus and that his faulty reporting was passed on as fact throughout the centuries. As Elior explains, the Essenes make no mention of themselves in the 900 scrolls found by a Bedouin shepherd in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, near the Dead Sea. "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls," Elior tells TIME. "But they didn't exist. This is legend on a legend." Elior contends that Josephus, a former Jewish priest who wrote his history while being held captive in Rome, "wanted to explain to the Romans that the Jews weren't all losers and traitors, that there were many exceptional Jews of religious devotion and heroism. You might say it was the first rebuttal to anti-Semitic literature." She adds, "He was probably inspired by the Spartans. For the Romans, the Spartans were the highest ideal of human behavior, and Josephus wanted to portray Jews who were like the Spartans in their ideals and high virtue." Early descriptions of the Essenes by Greek and Roman historians has them numbering in the thousands, living communally ("The first kibbutz," jokes Elior) and forsaking sex ? which goes against the Judaic exhortation to "go forth and multiply." Says Elior: "It doesn't make sense that you have thousands of people living against the Jewish law and there's no mention of them in any of the Jewish texts and sources of that period." So who were the real authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Elior theorizes that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by intriguing Greek rulers in 2nd century B.C. When they left, they took the source of their wisdom ? their scrolls ? with them. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century B.C. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century A.D. "The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping. Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world of biblical scholarship. James Charlesworth, director of the Dead Sea Scrolls project at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expert on Josephus, says it is not unusual that the word Essenes does not appear in the scrolls. "It's a foreign label," he tells TIME. "When they refer to themselves, it's as 'men of holiness' or 'sons of light.' " Charlesworth contends that at least eight scholars in antiquity refer to the Essenes. One proof of Essene authorship of the Dead Sea Scrolls, he says, is the large number of inkpots found by archaeologists at Qumran. But Elior claims says these ancient historians, namely Philo and Pliny the Elder, either borrowed from each other or retailed second-hand stories as fact. "Pliny the Elder describes the Essenes as 'choosing the company of date palms' beside the Dead Sea. We know Pliny was a great reader, but he probably never visited Israel," she says. Elior is braced for more criticism of her theory. "Usually my opponents have only read Josephus and the other classical references to the Essenes," she says. "They should read the Dead Sea Scrolls ? all 39 volumes. The proof is there." From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Mar 17 16:29:23 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:29:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dead Sea Scrolls: From my Blog Today In-Reply-To: <363901BF-963C-4108-B633-38FD403C8AA8@earthlink.net> References: <363901BF-963C-4108-B633-38FD403C8AA8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A9C977D-CD43-4B1E-8536-75A60BD480D8@earthlink.net> Should be GOLB not Gold...sorry for the typos... James On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:03 PM, James Tabor wrote: > From my Blog today: see jamestabor.com/blog > > Since about noon yesterday my mailbox has been crammed with friends, > associates, students, and colleagues asking if I had seen the latest > breaking story on the Dead Sea Scrolls published by Time magazine > and posted on their Web site. Until I looked I assumed this must be > Time's follow-up on the bizarre saga of Raphael Gold, son of noted > Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, Norman Gold, that I and about fifty other > bibliobloggers had commented on last week. > > I could not have been more mistaken. The Time story, titled "Scholar > Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed," was indeed > bizarre, but it had nothing to do with the alleged criminal > activities of Mr. Golb. Rather, it was a strange piece, authored by > Tim McGirk, reporting on the theories of Hebrew University professor > Rachel Elior regarding the non-existence of the "Essenes." This is > all fine and good, and certainly Prof. Elior deserves and has > received a hearing for her ideas. The problem is, according to > McGirk, "Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the > cloistered world of biblical scholarship," and indeed "has shaken > the bedrock of biblical scholarship." This is so ridiculous as to be > laughable, but equally surprising, since one has come to expect the > high quality of reporting on religion and the Bible in Time that one > associates with the work of veteran religion editor David Van Biema. > > It would be interesting to know what "cloistered world" Mr. McGirk > imagines exists among Dead Sea Scroll scholars and why he thinks > Elior's ideas would be any kind of bedrock-shattering bombshell? At > the end of the interview Prof. Elior braces herself for the attacks > of her "opponents" whom she charges have not even read the Dead Sea > Scrolls. I have no idea whom she has in mind, or what group of Dead > Sea Scroll scholars she imagines out there who don't even read the > original texts they work on! One might expect something like this > from the National Enquirer or Star Magazine, but certainly not from > Time. > > The issue itself is a fascinating one, and has been discussed in the > most meticulous detail, with all viewpoints extensively aired and > critiqued by those in the field. Two dominant issues have emerged: > > 1. Did the group that composed the sectarian documents collectively > known as the Dead Sea Scrolls live at the ancient excavated > settlement we know as Qumran? > > 2. Is the group that composed the sectarian documents collectively > known as the Dead Sea Scrolls named or otherwise known to us in > other textual sources from the late 2nd Temple period? > > By far the majority of scholars who work on the scrolls--and believe > it or not, they have actually read them, are convinced that the > Jewish group known and otherwise described as the "Essenes," by > classical authors Josephus, Pliny the Elder, and Philo, is to be > identified with the sectarian authors of the Scrolls, and that this > group lived at Qumran. The reasons for this two-fold identification > are abundant and the arguments are tried and tested. I would refer > readers to two very outstanding summaries: > > James Vanderkam and Peter Flint, in The Meaning of the Dead Sea > Scrolls (Harper, 2002), chapter 10, titled "Identifying the Group > Associated with Qumran," pp. 239-254. > > James H. Charlesworth, ed, Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Anchor/ > Doubleday, 1992), "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Historical Jesus," > pp. 1-74. > > Making this connection between how the Essenes are described ideally > by authors such as Josephus, and the group's self-description in the > Scrolls, in no way implies any kind of perfect or absolute > correspondence. Josephus also describes the Pharisees and Sadducees, > shaping his language to accommodate his Roman readers who were > familiar with Stoics and Epicureans. Scholars have long recognized > that Josephus puts the Essenes into a kind of Pythagorian garb, for > apologetic purposes. But such stylistic descriptive genres and > conventions have nothing to do with whether Jewish groups such as > the Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes, really existed. > > The question is not whether the "Essenes" wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls > but whether the sectarian group reflected in the scrolls corresponds > to the group called "Essenes," in the tendentious and idealistic > literary descriptions of Josephus, Pliny, and Philo. In other words, > if one wants to learn about the group who wrote the scrolls, one > goes to the scrolls themselves. But that is not to say that the > classical descriptions have no comparative value. In fact, when one > looks at the parallels, summarized in the materials cited above by > Vanderkam and Charlesworth, the similarities so far outweigh the > differences that one would be hard pressed to imagine Josephus, who > did not have the Scrolls, coming up with such a "make-believe" group. > > It is also noteworthy that various aspects of the "material" > evidence from the Qumran settlement, for example, the all male > cemetery, the latrines located to the northwest of the "camp," > evidence of sacred meals, and the ritual pools leading into the > segregated settlement, correspond to elements found in both the > Scrolls as well as the literary descriptions of the Essenes. > > So far as the language the group that wrote the Scrolls used to > describe itself, whether New Covenanters, the Yachad, or the Sons of > Light, a good case can be made that "Essenes" is actually a Greek > term for the Hebrew word "Ossim," that is, "Doers," namely the > "Doers of the Torah." This seems to be a phrase known to Paul, as > well as the related phrase "works of the Torah," in Romans 2 and > Galatians 3. > > So all things considered the Time article is most unfortunate in > that it implies, as so many sensational media stories dealing with > the Bible and archeology do, that the "experts" are somehow either > blinded by presuppositions or too invested in some status quo. In > fact, so far as free and open exchange and debate of every possible > viewpoint I would say the field of Dead Sea Scroll studies probably > wins a prize. > > Anyway, for what it's worth, here is the Time article in full: > > Monday, Mar. 16, 2009 > Scholar Claims Dead Sea Scrolls 'Authors' Never Existed > By Tim McGirk / Jerusalem > Biblical scholars have long argued that the Dead Sea Scrolls were > the work of an ascetic and celibate Jewish community known as the > Essenes, which flourished in the 1st century A.D. in the scorching > desert canyons near the Dead Sea. Now a prominent Israeli scholar, > Rachel Elior, disputes that the Essenes ever existed at all ? a > claim that has shaken the bedrock of biblical scholarship. > > Elior, who teaches Jewish mysticism at Jerusalem's Hebrew > University, claims that the Essenes were a fabrication by the 1st > century A.D. Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus and that his > faulty reporting was passed on as fact throughout the centuries. As > Elior explains, the Essenes make no mention of themselves in the 900 > scrolls found by a Bedouin shepherd in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, > near the Dead Sea. "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying > to find the Essenes in the scrolls," Elior tells TIME. "But they > didn't exist. This is legend on a legend." > > Elior contends that Josephus, a former Jewish priest who wrote his > history while being held captive in Rome, "wanted to explain to the > Romans that the Jews weren't all losers and traitors, that there > were many exceptional Jews of religious devotion and heroism. You > might say it was the first rebuttal to anti-Semitic literature." She > adds, "He was probably inspired by the Spartans. For the Romans, the > Spartans were the highest ideal of human behavior, and Josephus > wanted to portray Jews who were like the Spartans in their ideals > and high virtue." > > Early descriptions of the Essenes by Greek and Roman historians has > them numbering in the thousands, living communally ("The first > kibbutz," jokes Elior) and forsaking sex ? which goes against the > Judaic exhortation to "go forth and multiply." Says Elior: "It > doesn't make sense that you have thousands of people living against > the Jewish law and there's no mention of them in any of the Jewish > texts and sources of that period." > > So who were the real authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Elior > theorizes that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a > priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by intriguing > Greek rulers in 2nd century B.C. When they left, they took the > source of their wisdom ? their scrolls ? with them. "In Qumran, the > remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the > early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century B.C. Until the > discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the > Old Testament dated back to the 9th century A.D. "The scrolls attest > to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that > the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping. > > Elior's theory has landed like a bombshell in the cloistered world > of biblical scholarship. James Charlesworth, director of the Dead > Sea Scrolls project at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expert > on Josephus, says it is not unusual that the word Essenes does not > appear in the scrolls. "It's a foreign label," he tells TIME. "When > they refer to themselves, it's as 'men of holiness' or 'sons of > light.' " Charlesworth contends that at least eight scholars in > antiquity refer to the Essenes. One proof of Essene authorship of > the Dead Sea Scrolls, he says, is the large number of inkpots found > by archaeologists at Qumran. > > But Elior claims says these ancient historians, namely Philo and > Pliny the Elder, either borrowed from each other or retailed second- > hand stories as fact. "Pliny the Elder describes the Essenes as > 'choosing the company of date palms' beside the Dead Sea. We know > Pliny was a great reader, but he probably never visited Israel," she > says. > > Elior is braced for more criticism of her theory. "Usually my > opponents have only read Josephus and the other classical references > to the Essenes," she says. "They should read the Dead Sea Scrolls ? > all 39 volumes. The proof is > there."_______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:05:30 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:30 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] WOW...what a shockaroo!! Message-ID: <855590370903171805n7947f973rc7ef12da2206aa16@mail.gmail.com> Wow.....what a surprise, I'm *shocked - *NOT! No, what's shocking is that there are over 100,000 Jews living in Germany now, today....Has anyone ever figured out what the "learning curve" is for Jews? *Hanoch* Y Net 23:16 , 03.17.09 Troubling Figures [image: Photo: Reuters] Neo-Nazis in Germany (archives) Photo: Reuters Study: German teens drawn to neo-Nazi groups Roughly one in 20 15-year-old German males is a member of a neo-Nazi group, survey conducted in 2007 and 2008 shows. More than 14% of respondents inclined to brush off Holocaust as 'not awful' Reuters *Roughly one in 20 15-year-old German males is a member of a neo-Nazi group, a higher proportion than are involved in mainstream politics*, according to a study released on Tuesday. Many politicians fear a resurgence of right-wing extremism as unemployment creeps higher in Germany, which is facing its deepest recession since World War II. Government figures have shown anti-Semitic crimes rose at the end of last year. *Historical Lesson* *Dutch judge orders teens to visit Anne Frank House / *Associated Press Four teens who shouted anti-Semitic slurs at Jews during rally ordered by court to visit Anne Frank House in Amsterdam, hand in a report about their visit Full story "It is shocking that right-wing groups have more success recruiting male youths than the established political parties," said Christian Pfeiffer, author of the report issued by Lower Saxony's criminal research institute. Pfeiffer said fewer than 2% of young men were active in mainstream politics, compared to the 5% involved in far-right groups. The study, conducted in 2007 and 2008, also revealed that neo Nazi-symbols - in either rock music, stickers or special clothing - were used by one in 10 of the youths surveyed. The swastika and other Nazi symbols are banned in Germany. The highest proportion of neo-Nazis was in former communist eastern Germany, where almost one in eight youths were in such groups. More than 14% of those questioned were described as racist, and anti-Semitism was rife. More than 14% of those asked were inclined to brush off the Holocaust as "not awful" while a similar number tended to believe that Jews, through their behavior, were not entirely blameless for their persecution. Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's interior minister, said at the presentation of the state-sponsored report he would push for the creation of more sports clubs in regions with social problems. Late last year, a violent attack on Bavarian police chief Alois Mannichl, who had taken a stand against far-right supporters, stoked a debate over the rise of neo-Nazis. Earlier this month, an EU agency reportedthat peaks in anti-Semitism in Europe tracked tensions in the Middle East. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090317/9f393c9c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 17 20:53:38 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:53:38 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] WOW...what a shockaroo!! In-Reply-To: <855590370903171805n7947f973rc7ef12da2206aa16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031820090153.18373.49C05421000CA582000047C522218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Wow.....what a surprise, I'm shocked - NOT! No, what's shocking is that there are over 100,000 Jews living in Germany now, today....Has anyone ever figured out what the "learning curve" is for Jews? Hanoch Y Net 23:16 , 03.17.09 Troubling Figures Neo-Nazis in Germany (archives) Photo: Reuters Study: German teens drawn to neo-Nazi groups Roughly one in 20 15-year-old German males is a member of a neo-Nazi group, survey conducted in 2007 and 2008 shows. More than 14% of respondents inclined to brush off Holocaust as 'not awful' Reuters Roughly one in 20 15-year-old German males is a member of a neo-Nazi group, a higher proportion than are involved in mainstream politics, according to a study released on Tuesday. Many politicians fear a resurgence of right-wing extremism as unemployment creeps higher in Germany, which is facing its deepest recession since World War II. Government figures have shown anti-Semitic crimes rose at the end of last year. Historical Lesson Dutch judge orders teens to visit Anne Frank House / Associated Press Four teens who shouted anti-Semitic slurs at Jews during rally ordered by court to visit Anne Frank House in Amsterdam, hand in a report about their visit Full story "It is shocking that right-wing groups have more success recruiting male youths than the established political parties," said Christian Pfeiffer, author of the report issued by Lower Saxony's criminal research institute. Pfeiffer said fewer than 2% of young men were active in mainstream politics, compared to the 5% involved in far-right groups. The study, conducted in 2007 and 2008, also revealed that neo Nazi-symbols - in either rock music, stickers or special clothing - were used by one in 10 of the youths surveyed. The swastika and other Nazi symbols are banned in Germany. The highest proportion of neo-Nazis was in former communist eastern Germany, where almost one in eight youths were in such groups. More than 14% of those questioned were described as racist, and anti-Semitism was rife. More than 14% of those asked were inclined to brush off the Holocaust as "not awful" while a similar number tended to believe that Jews, through their behavior, were not entirely blameless for their persecution. Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's interior minister, said at the presentation of the state-sponsored report he would push for the creation of more sports clubs in regions with social problems. Late last year, a violent attack on Bavarian police chief Alois Mannichl, who had taken a stand against far-right supporters, stoked a debate over the rise of neo-Nazis. Earlier this month, an EU agency reported that peaks in anti-Semitism in Europe tracked tensions in the Middle East. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/56039698/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 17 21:01:07 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:01:07 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] WOW...what a shockaroo!!] Message-ID: <49C055E3.7030305@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/8dbc1d0e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] WOW...what a shockaroo!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:30 -0700 Size: 17445 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/8dbc1d0e/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 07:19:13 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 05:19:13 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! Message-ID: <855590370903180519w39e51438m88eb6bc7f2c999c@mail.gmail.com> PA's Fatah Violates Roadmap Demand to Recognize Israel Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 09:30 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) *Senior Fatah leader Mohammed Dahlan confirmed on Tuesday that Fatah, which leads the Palestinian Authority, does not recognize Israel *, one of the basic demands of the Roadmap plan. The Western world has boycotted the Hamas terrorist organization because of the same refusal to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. The other two requirements in the American-backed Roadmap plan - renouncing violence and accepting existing agreements - also have been violated by the PA. "I want to say for the thousandth time, in my own name and in the name of all of my fellow members of the Fatah movement: We do not demand that the Hamas movement recognize Israel,? Dahlan said on PA television. *?On the contrary, we demand of the Hamas movement not to recognize Israel because the Fatah movement does not recognize Israel even today, added Dahlan.* He was Fatah?s top official in the Gaza region until Hamas won a militia war against the rival sect nearly two years ago. Dahlan explained that although Fatah, headed by PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, does not recognize Israel, the PA does -- but only in order to receive aid from the international community. Western countries have poured billions of dollars into the Ramallah-based administration. The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, who operate the *Palestinian Media Watch*( *PMW*), translated Dahlan?s televised interview into English. In the interview, Dahlan commented, ?The PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) in 1993 recognized Israel. As Israel recognized the PLO, Every person has the right to say 'I do not recognize,' okay? It's your right. It is the right of every organization.? Abbas has stated several times that the PA reserves the right to violence if Israel does not meet its demands for a new Arab country, which it wants to establish on the land of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem. The PA also has violated Roadmap conditions and previous agreements prohibiting incitement and violence against Israel. Fatah?s military wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorist organization, has carried out a number of attacks against Israeli civilians since Abbas was elected to succeed Yasser Arafat after his death in 2004. Fatah initially took responsibility this week for the murder of two Israeli policemen in the Jordan Valley, but the announcement was quickly followed by a claim of responsibility by a group with a different name. Last week, PA TV celebrated the 31st anniversary of the March 11, 1978 attack on an Israeli bus, killing 37 civilians. The hour-long program ?included file film of PLO training camps, and interviews with a number of terrorists describing the planning and implementation of the attack.? Marcus and Cook wrote. The narrator opened the program by stating that the attack was ?one of the most important and most prominent special actions executed by the Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing events of the Arab-Israeli conflict." A new "peace poll" by the Truman Institute at Tel Aviv University and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 54 percent of PA Arabs support terror attacks inside Israel, compared with only 42 percent who oppose such attacks. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/edc8342e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 07:39:33 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 05:39:33 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Message-ID: <855590370903180539t7ec7bff4kcf7684f6c2a12691@mail.gmail.com> How many times have we heard Israeli generals and politicians say that we wouldn't let Iran get nuclear weapons, that we would NEVER allow another Auschwitz? There is NO DOUBT that the Islamo-Nazis of Iran would launch their nukes against Israel (G-d forbid)...and we have NO strategic depth, remember. So, what is it we keep talking about to the American government? They won't even give us the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) codes to fly over Iraq (to prevent Israel from having to shoot down American planes on the way to Iran). But still we meet....the Zyklon-B is being loaded, and this time, we're just watching it happen...And, the reason that Israel doesn't fire their nuclear arsenal is???? Maybe there's something I'm missing....but I didn't miss anything with the surrender of the Sinai, or the Oslo Accords, or Gush Katif, may it be speedily rebuilt. Are we waiting for the Assyrians, oops...I mean the Americans to change their minds and save us???? American "military intelligence" has become an oxymoron, so what's left to discuss with them? * Hanoch* IDF to US: Israel Closing In on Taking Military Aim at Iran Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 12:04 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi gave United States officials fresh intelligence information on an Iranian nuclear facility during his ?working visit? this week, according to the Saudi Arabia daily *Al Watan*. The newspaper quoted sources that claimed Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi told American officials that Israel is preparing for a military attack. He added that the government still prefers to see if the Western world?s diplomatic pressures can succeed in stopping the growing threat that Iran soon will manufacture a nuclear weapon. The new information concerned the facility in Arak, where a heavy water nuclear reactor is estimated to be operating. Iran also is building the Bushehr nuclear reactor at Natanz, where scientists will be able to enrich uranium that can be used for a bomb. However, Lt.-Gen. Ashkenazi met only with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Special Middle East Envoy on Iran Dennis Ross and National Security Advisor, General James Jones. He did not meet with his counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, or with Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He cut short his planned five-day visit ostensibly to attend the Cabinet meeting on the collapse of negotiations for freeing kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. The IDF general?s trip coincided with the publication of a report by a Washington-based think tank that Israel could use ?Jericho? ballistic missiles to destroy or at least damage Iranian nuclear facilities at Natanz, Isfahan and Arak. The missiles can hit a target with an error margin of only several feet. The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimated that Israel has 42 Jericho missiles, and that their use is ?much more feasible than using combat aircraft.? Iran has buried its nuclear sites deep underground, making them a difficult target for aerial bombing. However, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner told the *Reuters* news agency that the Natanz facility is so heavily fortified that an effective attack would require the use of bombs dropped into a hole created by a missile strike. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/dcb4f34a/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 08:23:13 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:23:13 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! Message-ID: The fact that the PA still teaches that Israel doesn't exist in their schools is also a big hint with their maps showing all of Israel as "Palestine". Having them as "partners in peace" is almost like having a snake in your sleeping bag. I say almost because there is a chance the snake won't bite you.The scariest part of the whole article is where it says, "The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? With one mouth the US says it supports Israel yet with the other it says it is teaching the Arabs to murder Jews. I guess "special forces" , like "militant", "freedom fighter" and the rest, has become a new PC term for terrorist. How can the US be fighting a so called war against terror while training and supplying terrorists?Simple, those terrorists aren't killing your average American,only Jews. Thanks again,Hanoch, your posts remain vital info. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! Date: 3/18/2009 8:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: PA's Fatah Violates Roadmap Demand to Recognize Israel Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 09:30 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) Senior Fatah leader Mohammed Dahlan confirmed on Tuesday that Fatah, which leads the Palestinian Authority, does not recognize Israel, one of the basic demands of the Roadmap plan. The Western world has boycotted the Hamas terrorist organization because of the same refusal to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. The other two requirements in the American-backed Roadmap plan - renouncing violence and accepting existing agreements - also have been violated by the PA. "I want to say for the thousandth time, in my own name and in the name of all of my fellow members of the Fatah movement: We do not demand that the Hamas movement recognize Israel,? Dahlan said on PA television. ?On the contrary, we demand of the Hamas movement not to recognize Israel because the Fatah movement does not recognize Israel even today, added Dahlan. He was Fatah?s top official in the Gaza region until Hamas won a militia war against the rival sect nearly two years ago. Dahlan explained that although Fatah, headed by PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, does not recognize Israel, the PA does -- but only in order to receive aid from the international community. Western countries have poured billions of dollars into the Ramallah-based administration. The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, who operate the _Palestinian Media Watch_ (http://www.pmw.org.il/) (PMW), translated Dahlan?s televised interview into English. In the interview, Dahlan commented, ?The PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) in 1993 recognized Israel. As Israel recognized the PLO, Every person has the right to say 'I do not recognize,' okay? It's your right. It is the right of every organization.? Abbas has stated several times that the PA reserves the right to violence if Israel does not meet its demands for a new Arab country, which it wants to establish on the land of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem. The PA also has violated Roadmap conditions and previous agreements prohibiting incitement and violence against Israel. Fatah?s military wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorist organization, has carried out a number of attacks against Israeli civilians since Abbas was elected to succeed Yasser Arafat after his death in 2004. Fatah initially took responsibility this week for the murder of two Israeli policemen in the Jordan Valley, but the announcement was quickly followed by a claim of responsibility by a group with a different name. Last week, PA TV celebrated the 31st anniversary of the March 11, 1978 attack on an Israeli bus, killing 37 civilians. The _hour-long program_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130414) ?included file film of PLO training camps, and interviews with a number of terrorists describing the planning and implementation of the attack.? Marcus and Cook wrote. The narrator opened the program by stating that the attack was ?one of the most important and most prominent special actions executed by the Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing events of the Arab-Israeli conflict." A new "peace poll" by the Truman Institute at Tel Aviv University and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 54 percent of PA Arabs support terror attacks inside Israel, compared with only 42 percent who oppose such attacks. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - _sub.israelnn.com_ (http://sub.israelnn.com/) _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/8cfd315f/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 08:39:49 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:39:49 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Message-ID: Hanoch,you really said a mouthful there and not only hit the nail on the head, but counter sunk it right into the wood. That is a good question about the trading of intell. Supposedly Israel and the US have a treaty to supply each other with security information. While Israel keeps Washington constantly advised, Washington doesn't seem to want to abide by the agreement.From the USS Liberty making a false position report and not flying colors in a war zone to giving Pollard life without parole for handing over Arab manpower and equipment movements to Israel that the State Dept should have handed over the day they came out, the US has shown itself to be only a part time allie.Your previous post about the US training PA "soldiers" only shows the depth of how dangerous this is.Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Date: 3/18/2009 8:39:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: How many times have we heard Israeli generals and politicians say that we wouldn't let Iran get nuclear weapons, that we would NEVER allow another Auschwitz? There is NO DOUBT that the Islamo-Nazis of Iran would launch their nukes against Israel (G-d forbid)...and we have NO strategic depth, remember. So, what is it we keep talking about to the American government? They won't even give us the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) codes to fly over Iraq (to prevent Israel from having to shoot down American planes on the way to Iran). But still we meet....the Zyklon-B is being loaded, and this time, we're just watching it happen...And, the reason that Israel doesn't fire their nuclear arsenal is???? Maybe there's something I'm missing....but I didn't miss anything with the surrender of the Sinai, or the Oslo Accords, or Gush Katif, may it be speedily rebuilt. Are we waiting for the Assyrians, oops...I mean the Americans to change their minds and save us???? American "military intelligence" has become an oxymoron, so what's left to discuss with them? Hanoch IDF to US: Israel Closing In on Taking Military Aim at Iran Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 12:04 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi gave United States officials fresh intelligence information on an Iranian nuclear facility during his ? working visit? this week, according to the Saudi Arabia daily Al Watan. The newspaper quoted sources that claimed Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi told American officials that Israel is preparing for a military attack. He added that the government still prefers to see if the Western world?s diplomatic pressures can succeed in stopping the growing threat that Iran soon will manufacture a nuclear weapon. The new information concerned the facility in Arak, where a heavy water nuclear reactor is estimated to be operating. Iran also is building the Bushehr nuclear reactor at Natanz, where scientists will be able to enrich uranium that can be used for a bomb. However, Lt.-Gen. Ashkenazi met only with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Special Middle East Envoy on Iran Dennis Ross and National Security Advisor, General James Jones. He did not meet with his counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, or with Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He cut short his planned five-day visit ostensibly to attend the Cabinet meeting on the collapse of negotiations for freeing kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. The IDF general?s trip coincided with the publication of a report by a Washington-based think tank that Israel could use ?Jericho? ballistic missiles to destroy or at least damage Iranian nuclear facilities at Natanz, Isfahan and Arak. The missiles can hit a target with an error margin of only several feet. The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimated that Israel has 42 Jericho missiles, and that their use is ?much more feasible than using combat aircraft.? Iran has buried its nuclear sites deep underground, making them a difficult target for aerial bombing. However, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner told the Reuters news agency that the Natanz facility is so heavily fortified that an effective attack would require the use of bombs dropped into a hole created by a missile strike. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/0f00c64e/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 08:46:35 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Resources and websites (video's too) for Passover In-Reply-To: <855590370903170440g288c4bbeneacad69fd145f1d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <465030.10815.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The sites are great!?? Thank you for posting this.? I love preparing for Passover and this is going to be sooooooo helpful this year.? ? Margie --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] Resources and websites (video's too) for Passover To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 6:40 AM 152 Passover Educational Hotsites and 80 Cool Passover YouTube Video Posted by: "Jacob Richman" jrichman at jr.co.il ? jrichman1999 Tue Mar?17,?2009 2:34?am (PDT) Hi Everyone! This year Passover begins on Wednesday night, April 8, 2009. I posted on my website 152 links about Passover, ranging from laws and customs to games and recipes. Site languages include English, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, French, Portugese, Italian and German. All 152 links have been reviewed / checked this week. The web address is: http://www.jr.co..il/hotsites/j-hdaypa.htm and...... I gathered links to 80 cool Passover videos on YouTube. Enjoy the videos at: http://www.jr.co.il/videos/passover-videos.htm Please forward this message to family and friends, so they may benefit from these holiday resources. An early Happy Passover! Jacob _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/0ff6e2f8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:03:24 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:03:24 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Resources and websites (video's too) for Passover In-Reply-To: <465030.10815.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <855590370903170440g288c4bbeneacad69fd145f1d2@mail.gmail.com> <465030.10815.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370903180703k345ddc52x720a2280d2370065@mail.gmail.com> Hey Margie - I'm thrilled that you found it helpful! I'll keep looking for other 'goodies' on the web. :-) Best regards, * Hanoch * On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Margie Creech wrote: > The sites are great! Thank you for posting this. I love preparing for > Passover and this is going to be sooooooo helpful this year. > > Margie > > --- On *Tue, 3/17/09, Hanoch Young * wrote: > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] Resources and websites (video's too) for Passover > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 6:40 AM > > > 152 Passover Educational Hotsites and 80 Cool Passover YouTube Video > Posted > by: "Jacob Richman" jrichman at jr.co.il > > jrichman1999 Tue Mar 17, 2009 > 2:34 am (PDT) Hi Everyone! > > This year Passover begins on Wednesday night, April 8, 2009. > > I posted on my website 152 links about Passover, > ranging from laws and customs to games and recipes. > Site languages include English, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, > French, Portugese, Italian and German. > > All 152 links have been reviewed / checked this week. > The web address is: > http://www.jr.co..il/hotsites/j-hdaypa.htm > > and...... > > I gathered links to 80 cool Passover videos on YouTube. > Enjoy the videos at: > http://www.jr.co.il/videos/passover-videos.htm > > Please forward this message to family and friends, > so they may benefit from these holiday resources. > > An early Happy Passover! > Jacob > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/34c370ae/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:07:35 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:07:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903180707o6072134erc0e8aeb509700072@mail.gmail.com> Hey Hez - Wait, but "Assyria" will save us from "Babylon," right? Or was it vise versa....hmmmm...maybe it's actually time to trust in HaShem instead; wow...another radical concept! And we Jews don't want to become TOO radical now, of course.... Best regards, * Hanoch * On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM, wrote: > Hanoch,you really said a mouthful there and not only hit the nail on the > head, but counter sunk it right into the wood. > > That is a good question about the trading of intell. Supposedly Israel and > the US have a treaty to supply each other with security information. While > Israel keeps Washington constantly advised, Washington doesn't seem to want > to abide by the agreement.From the USS Liberty making a false position > report and not flying colors in a war zone to giving Pollard life without > parole for handing over Arab manpower and equipment movements to Israel that > the State Dept should have handed over the day they came out, the US has > shown itself to be only a part time allie.Your previous post about the US > training PA "soldiers" only shows the depth of how dangerous this > is.Shalom,Hez > > ========Original Message======== Subj: *[Dialogue] Has time run out??* > Date: 3/18/2009 8:39:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: > youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > How many times have we heard Israeli generals and politicians say that we > wouldn't let Iran get nuclear weapons, that we would NEVER allow another > Auschwitz? There is NO DOUBT that the Islamo-Nazis of Iran would launch > their nukes against Israel (G-d forbid)...and we have NO strategic depth, > remember. So, what is it we keep talking about to the American government? > They won't even give us the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) codes to fly over > Iraq (to prevent Israel from having to shoot down American planes on the way > to Iran). > > But still we meet....the Zyklon-B is being loaded, and this time, we're > just watching it happen...And, the reason that Israel doesn't fire their > nuclear arsenal is???? > > Maybe there's something I'm missing....but I didn't miss anything with the > surrender of the Sinai, or the Oslo Accords, or Gush Katif, may it be > speedily rebuilt. Are we waiting for the Assyrians, oops...I mean the > Americans to change their minds and save us???? American "military > intelligence" has become an oxymoron, so what's left to discuss with them? > * Hanoch* > > IDF to US: Israel Closing In on Taking Military Aim at Iran Adar 22, 5769, > 18 March 09 12:04 > by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu > > (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi gave United States > officials fresh intelligence information on an Iranian nuclear facility > during his ?working visit? this week, according to the Saudi Arabia daily > *Al Watan*. > > The newspaper quoted sources that claimed Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi told > American officials that Israel is preparing for a military attack. He added > that the government still prefers to see if the Western world?s diplomatic > pressures can succeed in stopping the growing threat that Iran soon will > manufacture a nuclear weapon. > > The new information concerned the facility in Arak, where a heavy water > nuclear reactor is estimated to be operating. Iran also is building the > Bushehr nuclear reactor at Natanz, where scientists will be able to enrich > uranium that can be used for a bomb. > > However, Lt.-Gen. Ashkenazi met only with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary > Clinton, Special Middle East Envoy on Iran Dennis Ross and National Security > Advisor, General James Jones. > > He did not meet with his counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, or with > Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He cut short his planned five-day visit > ostensibly to attend the Cabinet meeting on the collapse of negotiations for > freeing kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. > > The IDF general?s trip coincided with the publication of a report by a > Washington-based think tank that Israel could use ?Jericho? ballistic > missiles to destroy or at least damage Iranian nuclear facilities at Natanz, > Isfahan and Arak. > > The missiles can hit a target with an error margin of only several feet. > The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimated that Israel has > 42 Jericho missiles, and that their use is ?much more feasible than using > combat aircraft.? > > Iran has buried its nuclear sites deep underground, making them a difficult > target for aerial bombing. > > However, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner told the *Reuters*news agency that the Natanz facility is so heavily fortified that an > effective attack would require the use of bombs dropped into a hole created > by a missile strike. > www.IsraelNationalNews.com > ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/212155cf/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 09:11:28 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:11:28 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Message-ID: What's that noise? Oh,it must be that hammer again.LOLOL Yasher koach,Hanoch ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Date: 3/18/2009 10:08:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hey Hez - Wait, but "Assyria" will save us from "Babylon," right? Or was it vise versa....hmmmm...maybe it's actually time to trust in HaShem instead; wow...another radical concept! And we Jews don't want to become TOO radical now, of course.... Best regards, Hanoch On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM, <_Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) > wrote: Hanoch,you really said a mouthful there and not only hit the nail on the head, but counter sunk it right into the wood. That is a good question about the trading of intell. Supposedly Israel and the US have a treaty to supply each other with security information. While Israel keeps Washington constantly advised, Washington doesn't seem to want to abide by the agreement.From the USS Liberty making a false position report and not flying colors in a war zone to giving Pollard life without parole for handing over Arab manpower and equipment movements to Israel that the State Dept should have handed over the day they came out, the US has shown itself to be only a part time allie.Your previous post about the US training PA "soldiers" only shows the depth of how dangerous this is.Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? Date: 3/18/2009 8:39:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: How many times have we heard Israeli generals and politicians say that we wouldn't let Iran get nuclear weapons, that we would NEVER allow another Auschwitz? There is NO DOUBT that the Islamo-Nazis of Iran would launch their nukes against Israel (G-d forbid)...and we have NO strategic depth, remember. So, what is it we keep talking about to the American government? They won't even give us the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) codes to fly over Iraq (to prevent Israel from having to shoot down American planes on the way to Iran). But still we meet....the Zyklon-B is being loaded, and this time, we're just watching it happen...And, the reason that Israel doesn't fire their nuclear arsenal is???? Maybe there's something I'm missing....but I didn't miss anything with the surrender of the Sinai, or the Oslo Accords, or Gush Katif, may it be speedily rebuilt. Are we waiting for the Assyrians, oops...I mean the Americans to change their minds and save us???? American "military intelligence" has become an oxymoron, so what's left to discuss with them? Hanoch IDF to US: Israel Closing In on Taking Military Aim at Iran Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 12:04 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi gave United States officials fresh intelligence information on an Iranian nuclear facility during his ? working visit? this week, according to the Saudi Arabia daily Al Watan. The newspaper quoted sources that claimed Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi told American officials that Israel is preparing for a military attack. He added that the government still prefers to see if the Western world?s diplomatic pressures can succeed in stopping the growing threat that Iran soon will manufacture a nuclear weapon. The new information concerned the facility in Arak, where a heavy water nuclear reactor is estimated to be operating. Iran also is building the Bushehr nuclear reactor at Natanz, where scientists will be able to enrich uranium that can be used for a bomb. However, Lt.-Gen. Ashkenazi met only with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Special Middle East Envoy on Iran Dennis Ross and National Security Advisor, General James Jones. He did not meet with his counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, or with Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He cut short his planned five-day visit ostensibly to attend the Cabinet meeting on the collapse of negotiations for freeing kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. The IDF general?s trip coincided with the publication of a report by a Washington-based think tank that Israel could use ?Jericho? ballistic missiles to destroy or at least damage Iranian nuclear facilities at Natanz, Isfahan and Arak. The missiles can hit a target with an error margin of only several feet. The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimated that Israel has 42 Jericho missiles, and that their use is ?much more feasible than using combat aircraft.? Iran has buried its nuclear sites deep underground, making them a difficult target for aerial bombing. However, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner told the Reuters news agency that the Natanz facility is so heavily fortified that an effective attack would require the use of bombs dropped into a hole created by a missile strike. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/0a9fccde/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:16:13 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:16:13 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Why are we just realizing this, now?!? Message-ID: <855590370903180716n72265ea8x213ae02c1a8e2bf6@mail.gmail.com> The next time anyone tells you that Jews are a naturally smart people, please refer them to this article; it shows you that we can be a dumb as everyone else! We needed a COMMITTEE to figure this out?!?! * Hanoch* *Govt May Chop Terrorists' Rights* by Hillel Fendel [image: Govt May Chop Terrorists' Rights] Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has appointed a ministerial committee to see if it possible to downgrade the prison condition of Arab terrorists to those of Gilad Shalit in captivity. Terror victim expert Meir Indor says Arab terrorists' conditions in Israeli prison are better than those of criminal convicts." The new committee is to be headed by Justice Minister Daniel Friedmann, and will convene today (Wednesday) for the first time to hear judicial opinions on the matter. A new government is expected to take office in the coming days, and it is not clear whether the committee will formulate recommendations, and if so, whether the new government will adopt them. Issues that will be considered include rights to receive visitors, phone calls and study courses, none of which Shalit has received in his 33 months in Hamas captivity. The decision to consider downgrading the terrorists? conditions was made in light of the failure to conclude a deal for the release of Shalit in exchange for up to 1,400 imprisoned Palestinian terrorists. Hamas demands 450 terrorists in the first stage, most of whom have murdered Jews, and another 950 more junior terrorists in subsequent stages. Hamas also has refused Israel?s condition that many of the terrorists from Judea and Samaria be expelled to Gaza or elsewhere. *Friedmann: Much Room to Downgrade *Minister Friedmann says he is of the opinion that the conditions under which the Arab security prisoners are being held ?are way above the minimum. We can reduce the number of visitors they are allowed, control over visitors, phone calls, and monies they receive.? Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, a member of the committee, long ago informed the government of his opinion that depriving the terrorists of certain rights is illegal. The government accepted his opinion at the time, but the formation of the committee appears to be a sign that it is reconsidering. *A List of Terrorist Privileges* Meir Indor, of the Almagor Terror Victims Association, told Israel National News the extent of the privileges the imprisoned terrorists receive: "First of all, they are organized into committees, with commanders, as if they were prisoners of war. This means that the Prison Service deals with them only via their commanders and representatives. In addition, even though they are considered war criminals, they receive visits from the International Red Cross. They also receive many visits from lawyers, who often serve as couriers to bring messages back and forth. They receive many family visitors, even though the Red Cross does not require this, as well as phone calls, with some supervision. They are given the opportunity to study for high school matriculation, and also a university degree. In addition, I have heard that the Palestinian Authority deposits 1,200 shekels in their canteen accounts every month." "In short," Indor concluded, "the conditions of an Arab terrorist in Israeli prison is better than those of a criminal convict in the same jail - and certainly many times better than the dungeon conditions to which Gilad Shalit is apparently treated." *Friedmann: Israel Need Not Cede Every Point to Hamas *Minister Friedmann shared with Ynet his opinion that Israel must take a tougher stance in its negotiations with Hamas over Gilad Shalit: ?The Prime Minister went further than? what some of us think [should be do regarding Shalit. There is an opinion that whatever demands Hamas makes must be accepted right away. This is incorrect and irresponsible. It has a high price regarding future kidnappings; the more we give in, the more kidnappings there will be. In addition, it has strategic ramifications, in that every far-reaching concession we make strengthens the radical elements and weakens those who are more moderate... What will do if they say they want Sderot in exchange for Shalit!? They are cruel and inflexible, but we must still remember that they can be negotiated with.? *Ben-Eliezer: Any Price *It will be recalled that Infrastructures Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) said not long ago, ?We must be willing to pay any price ? any price ? for the return of Gilad Shalit.? He was criticized at the time by National Union MK Yaakov Katz (Ketzaleh), who served under Ben-Eliezer in the army: ?Can he possibly mean that we should pay 'any' price? I was a soldier under Fuad's command, and this is not the tough Fuad and responsible leader I knew. Should we give into everything they demand? Do we need to release 1,000 murderers and cause more bereaved families? A government must behave responsibly towards the entire country." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/a7cd5e9f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:18:11 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:18:11 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903180718o7c295130k49b3a446a3e2a0cf@mail.gmail.com> Hez - Nope, just me knocking my head against the wall.... And I really wish I was kidding... * Hanoch * On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:11 AM, wrote: > What's that noise? Oh,it must be that hammer again.LOLOL Yasher > koach,Hanoch > > ========Original Message======== Subj: *Re: [Dialogue] Has time run out?? > * Date: 3/18/2009 10:08:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > Hey Hez - > > Wait, but "Assyria" will save us from "Babylon," right? Or was it vise > versa....hmmmm...maybe it's actually time to trust in HaShem instead; > wow...another radical concept! And we Jews don't want to become TOO radical > now, of course.... > > Best regards, > * Hanoch > * > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM, wrote: > >> Hanoch,you really said a mouthful there and not only hit the nail on the >> head, but counter sunk it right into the wood. >> >> That is a good question about the trading of intell. Supposedly Israel and >> the US have a treaty to supply each other with security information. While >> Israel keeps Washington constantly advised, Washington doesn't seem to want >> to abide by the agreement.From the USS Liberty making a false position >> report and not flying colors in a war zone to giving Pollard life without >> parole for handing over Arab manpower and equipment movements to Israel that >> the State Dept should have handed over the day they came out, the US has >> shown itself to be only a part time allie.Your previous post about the US >> training PA "soldiers" only shows the depth of how dangerous this >> is.Shalom,Hez >> >> ========Original Message======== Subj: *[Dialogue] Has time run out??* >> Date: 3/18/2009 8:39:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: >> youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: >> >> How many times have we heard Israeli generals and politicians say that we >> wouldn't let Iran get nuclear weapons, that we would NEVER allow another >> Auschwitz? There is NO DOUBT that the Islamo-Nazis of Iran would launch >> their nukes against Israel (G-d forbid)...and we have NO strategic depth, >> remember. So, what is it we keep talking about to the American government? >> They won't even give us the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) codes to fly over >> Iraq (to prevent Israel from having to shoot down American planes on the way >> to Iran). >> >> But still we meet....the Zyklon-B is being loaded, and this time, we're >> just watching it happen...And, the reason that Israel doesn't fire their >> nuclear arsenal is???? >> >> Maybe there's something I'm missing....but I didn't miss anything with the >> surrender of the Sinai, or the Oslo Accords, or Gush Katif, may it be >> speedily rebuilt. Are we waiting for the Assyrians, oops...I mean the >> Americans to change their minds and save us???? American "military >> intelligence" has become an oxymoron, so what's left to discuss with them? >> * Hanoch* >> >> IDF to US: Israel Closing In on Taking Military Aim at Iran Adar 22, >> 5769, 18 March 09 12:04 >> by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu >> >> (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi gave United States >> officials fresh intelligence information on an Iranian nuclear facility >> during his ?working visit? this week, according to the Saudi Arabia daily >> *Al Watan*. >> >> The newspaper quoted sources that claimed Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi >> told American officials that Israel is preparing for a military attack. He >> added that the government still prefers to see if the Western world?s >> diplomatic pressures can succeed in stopping the growing threat that Iran >> soon will manufacture a nuclear weapon. >> >> The new information concerned the facility in Arak, where a heavy water >> nuclear reactor is estimated to be operating. Iran also is building the >> Bushehr nuclear reactor at Natanz, where scientists will be able to enrich >> uranium that can be used for a bomb. >> >> However, Lt.-Gen. Ashkenazi met only with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary >> Clinton, Special Middle East Envoy on Iran Dennis Ross and National Security >> Advisor, General James Jones. >> >> He did not meet with his counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen, or with >> Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He cut short his planned five-day visit >> ostensibly to attend the Cabinet meeting on the collapse of negotiations for >> freeing kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. >> >> The IDF general?s trip coincided with the publication of a report by a >> Washington-based think tank that Israel could use ?Jericho? ballistic >> missiles to destroy or at least damage Iranian nuclear facilities at Natanz, >> Isfahan and Arak. >> >> The missiles can hit a target with an error margin of only several feet. >> The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimated that Israel has >> 42 Jericho missiles, and that their use is ?much more feasible than using >> combat aircraft.? >> >> Iran has buried its nuclear sites deep underground, making them a >> difficult target for aerial bombing. >> >> However, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner told the *Reuters*news agency that the Natanz facility is so heavily fortified that an >> effective attack would require the use of bombs dropped into a hole created >> by a missile strike. >> www.IsraelNationalNews.com >> ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------ >> Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 >> . >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/3124ee4a/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 09:47:02 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:47:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Why are we just realizing this, now?!? Message-ID: I think Israel should demand Shalit be returned before a single inmate is released. Once he is back home,Israel should release every single Pally in jail, not just the number Hamas wants.They should take each and every one of them and toss them through a checkpoint into Gaza.Then,every time one gets arrested, unless a murderer,toss their tuchus through a checkpoint.Just shoot the murderers and then throw them through the gate. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Why are we just realizing this, now?!? Date: 3/18/2009 10:16:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: The next time anyone tells you that Jews are a naturally smart people, please refer them to this article; it shows you that we can be a dumb as everyone else! We needed a COMMITTEE to figure this out?!?! Hanoch Govt May Chop Terrorists' Rights by Hillel Fendel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has appointed a ministerial committee to see if it possible to downgrade the prison condition of Arab terrorists to those of Gilad Shalit in captivity. Terror victim expert Meir Indor says Arab terrorists' conditions in Israeli prison are better than those of criminal convicts." The new committee is to be headed by Justice Minister Daniel Friedmann, and will convene today (Wednesday) for the first time to hear judicial opinions on the matter. A new government is expected to take office in the coming days, and it is not clear whether the committee will formulate recommendations, and if so, whether the new government will adopt them. Issues that will be considered include rights to receive visitors, phone calls and study courses, none of which Shalit has received in his 33 months in Hamas captivity. The decision to consider downgrading the terrorists? conditions was made in light of the failure to conclude a deal for the release of Shalit in exchange for up to 1,400 imprisoned Palestinian terrorists. Hamas demands 450 terrorists in the first stage, most of whom have murdered Jews, and another 950 more junior terrorists in subsequent stages. Hamas also has refused Israel?s condition that many of the terrorists from Judea and Samaria be expelled to Gaza or elsewhere. Friedmann: Much Room to Downgrade Minister Friedmann says he is of the opinion that the conditions under which the Arab security prisoners are being held ?are way above the minimum. We can reduce the number of visitors they are allowed, control over visitors, phone calls, and monies they receive.? Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, a member of the committee, long ago informed the government of his opinion that depriving the terrorists of certain rights is illegal. The government accepted his opinion at the time, but the formation of the committee appears to be a sign that it is reconsidering. A List of Terrorist Privileges Meir Indor, of the Almagor Terror Victims Association, told Israel National News the extent of the privileges the imprisoned terrorists receive: "First of all, they are organized into committees, with commanders, as if they were prisoners of war. This means that the Prison Service deals with them only via their commanders and representatives. In addition, even though they are considered war criminals, they receive visits from the International Red Cross. They also receive many visits from lawyers, who often serve as couriers to bring messages back and forth. They receive many family visitors, even though the Red Cross does not require this, as well as phone calls, with some supervision. They are given the opportunity to study for high school matriculation, and also a university degree. In addition, I have heard that the Palestinian Authority deposits 1,200 shekels in their canteen accounts every month." "In short," Indor concluded, "the conditions of an Arab terrorist in Israeli prison is better than those of a criminal convict in the same jail - and certainly many times better than the dungeon conditions to which Gilad Shalit is apparently treated." Friedmann: Israel Need Not Cede Every Point to Hamas Minister Friedmann shared with Ynet his opinion that Israel must take a tougher stance in its negotiations with Hamas over Gilad Shalit: ?The Prime Minister went further than? what some of us think [should be do regarding Shalit. There is an opinion that whatever demands Hamas makes must be accepted right away. This is incorrect and irresponsible. It has a high price regarding future kidnappings; the more we give in, the more kidnappings there will be. In addition, it has strategic ramifications, in that every far-reaching concession we make strengthens the radical elements and weakens those who are more moderate... What will do if they say they want Sderot in exchange for Shalit!? They are cruel and inflexible, but we must still remember that they can be negotiated with.? Ben-Eliezer: Any Price It will be recalled that Infrastructures Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) said not long ago, ?We must be willing to pay any price ? any price ? for the return of Gilad Shalit.? He was criticized at the time by National Union MK Yaakov Katz (Ketzaleh), who served under Ben-Eliezer in the army: ?Can he possibly mean that we should pay 'any' price? I was a soldier under Fuad's command, and this is not the tough Fuad and responsible leader I knew. Should we give into everything they demand? Do we need to release 1,000 murderers and cause more bereaved families? A government must behave responsibly towards the entire country." _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/6c58390a/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Wed Mar 18 09:57:15 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:57:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C10BCB.6030800@gninc.ca> Shalom Hezakiah I don't take the time to read every post. But I find your posts good. I envy you Jews. Than again I guess I have my place in this universe too, even as a goy. It is just that at 73 I am a especially slow learner. I was a Christian most of my life. (Living somewhat boxed in all that time, no radio, TV, or hardly a local paper etc.) I don't even know where you are at, I mean if you are in the US or in Israel or where ever. That maybe does not matter either. I am from central Canada. I have left Christianity, (although I live together with a very devoted Christian wife) but I don't really know for sure where I belong. I do study Judaism a lot, as it seems that is about the safest you can get. Cornie Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > The fact that the PA still teaches that Israel doesn't exist in their > schools is also a big hint with their maps showing all of Israel as > "Palestine". Having them as "partners in peace" is almost like having > a snake in your sleeping bag. I say almost because there is a chance > the snake won't bite you.The scariest part of the whole article is > where it says, > > "The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 > million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which > the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? > > With one mouth the US says it supports Israel yet with the other it > says it is teaching the Arabs to murder Jews. I guess "special forces" > , like "militant", "freedom fighter" and the rest, has become a new PC > term for terrorist. How can the US be fighting a so called war against > terror while training and supplying terrorists?Simple, those > terrorists aren't killing your average American,only Jews. Thanks > again,Hanoch, your posts remain vital info. Shalom,Hez > > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *[Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring!* > Date: 3/18/2009 8:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: youngbarzel at gmail.com > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent on: > > > PA's Fatah Violates Roadmap Demand to Recognize Israel > > Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 09:30 > by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu > > (IsraelNN.com) *Senior Fatah leader Mohammed Dahlan confirmed on > Tuesday that Fatah, which leads the Palestinian Authority, does not > recognize Israel*, one of the basic demands of the Roadmap plan. The > Western world has boycotted the Hamas terrorist organization because > of the same refusal to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. > > The other two requirements in the American-backed Roadmap plan - > renouncing violence and accepting existing agreements - also have been > violated by the PA. > > "I want to say for the thousandth time, in my own name and in the name > of all of my fellow members of the Fatah movement: We do not demand > that the Hamas movement recognize Israel,? Dahlan said on PA television. > > *?On the contrary, we demand of the Hamas movement not to recognize > Israel because the Fatah movement does not recognize Israel even > today, added Dahlan.* He was Fatah?s top official in the Gaza region > until Hamas won a militia war against the rival sect nearly two years > ago. > > Dahlan explained that although Fatah, headed by PA Chairman Mahmoud > Abbas, does not recognize Israel, the PA does -- but only in order to > receive aid from the international community. Western countries have > poured billions of dollars into the Ramallah-based administration. > > The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 > million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which > the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? > > Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, who operate the /Palestinian Media > Watch/ (/PMW/), translated Dahlan?s televised > interview into English. > > In the interview, Dahlan commented, ?The PLO (Palestine Liberation > Organization) in 1993 recognized Israel. As Israel recognized the PLO, > Every person has the right to say 'I do not recognize,' okay? It's > your right. It is the right of every organization.? > > Abbas has stated several times that the PA reserves the right to > violence if Israel does not meet its demands for a new Arab country, > which it wants to establish on the land of Judea, Samaria, Gaza > and eastern Jerusalem. > > The PA also has violated Roadmap conditions and previous agreements > prohibiting incitement and violence against Israel. Fatah?s military > wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorist organization, has carried > out a number of attacks against Israeli civilians since Abbas was > elected to succeed Yasser Arafat after his death in 2004. > > Fatah initially took responsibility this week for the murder of two > Israeli policemen in the Jordan Valley, but the announcement was > quickly followed by a claim of responsibility by a group with a > different name. > > Last week, PA TV celebrated the 31st anniversary of the March 11, 1978 > attack on an Israeli bus, killing 37 civilians. The hour-long program > ?included > file film of PLO training camps, and interviews with a number of > terrorists describing the planning and implementation of the attack.? > Marcus and Cook wrote. > > The narrator opened the program by stating that the attack was ?one of > the most important and most prominent special actions executed by the > Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel > Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led > by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing > events of the Arab-Israeli conflict." > > A new "peace poll" by the Truman Institute at Tel Aviv University and > the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that > 54 percent of PA Arabs support terror attacks inside Israel, compared > with only 42 percent who oppose such attacks. > > www.IsraelNationalNews.com > ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com > Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > From oneillcody at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 10:55:29 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (oneillcody at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Somethng to Keep Our Eyes Open For Message-ID: <44934.38465.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just thought I'd relay some things that my boss and I have been talking about: ? As many have heard, Russia and Iran signed a contract a couple of years ago for a missile defense system to be installed in Iran to prevent a now imminent strike on its nuclear facilities. ? This installation has been put on hold due to the obvious outcome, which in reality Russia is planning for. ? There are a few keys signs that we should watch for over the next couple of months. ? Iran's elections will take place next month, with the US quietly supporting the opposition to Ahmadinejad. But the outcome makes no difference in reality, since the president of Iran is only a puppet. ? Netanyahu has had some difficulty putting together a strong coalition, and it is possible that he will settle for a temporary six month government.? He will do this in order to continue?preparations for a strike on Iran.? The window is very small. ? If this strike takes place,? Iran?could retaliate with a few strategic strikes on oil lines as well as closing the Straight of Hormuz.? The possible?result?could be gas prices?of??$20 a gallon at the pumps, during?a time of a world wide depression.? American interests could also be targeted throughout the Middle East.? This?could cause the United States to be dragged into a war with Iran.? It could also be forced?into other areas in the Middle East.? ? The outcome could be a backlash of antisemitism like never seen before, as well as the?destruction of?an historical?relationship?between two nations, The United States and Israel.? ? Obama still believes that he can avoid a fight with Iran.? If Israel makes this strike, the skyrocketing oil prices will be devastating for modern nations across the world.? Oil shortages and a massive increase in prices will effect everyone.? Food shortages across the world may also be a result. ? Of course this is just one possible scenario, and conditions change daily.? Perhaps Obama's plan (if it is his true plan) will work and he will be able to forge alliances with the "moderate" arab nations to isolate and collapse this and other evil regimes (which is what?Bush tried with Iraq and Afghanistan).?? But, history tells us that without a strong hand of leadership, and instilling fear in your adversaries, words can have the opposite?intended?effect. ? If this war does break out, we can be sure that the conflicts with hamas and hezbollah will intensify to all out war.? North Korea is also something to watch as and if this transpires.? The nation can be compared to a middle child looking for attention. ? Hate to bring these things up, but our belief is that if we are quietly prepared for the worst, we are a step ahead of the rest. ? -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/fadc703e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 18 11:13:44 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:13:44 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Somethng to Keep Our Eyes Open For In-Reply-To: <44934.38465.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031820091613.15813.49C11DB60008701300003DC522243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks Cody, I for one am watching all of this very closely. Keep a close eye on the Palistan/Afghanistan conflict as well as rising tensions with China and Mexico. The perfect storm is brewing. Like you I hate to bring this stuff up and we all know that HaShem is in charge and will protect us. But we need to keep watch and be ready. I can assure you that much of the population of the US is oblivious to all that is happening with thier eyes glued to Wall Street thanks to our "unbiased" media. I try to pass on as much as can to those I know outside the list. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Just thought I'd relay some things that my boss and I have been talking about: As many have heard, Russia and Iran signed a contract a couple of years ago for a missile defense system to be installed in Iran to prevent a now imminent strike on its nuclear facilities. This installation has been put on hold due to the obvious outcome, which in reality Russia is planning for. There are a few keys signs that we should watch for over the next couple of months. Iran's elections will take place next month, with the US quietly supporting the opposition to Ahmadinejad. But the outcome makes no difference in reality, since the president of Iran is only a puppet. Netanyahu has had some difficulty putting together a strong coalition, and it is possible that he will settle for a temporary six month government. He will do this in order to continue preparations for a strike on Iran. The window is very small. If this strike takes place, Iran could retaliate with a few strategic strikes on oil lines as well as closing the Straight of Hormuz. The possible result could be gas prices of $20 a gallon at the pumps, during a time of a world wide depression. American interests could also be targeted throughout the Middle East. This could cause the United States to be dragged into a war with Iran. It could also be forced into other areas in the Middle East. The outcome could be a backlash of antisemitism like never seen before, as well as the destruction of an historical relationship between two nations, The United States and Israel. Obama still believes that he can avoid a fight with Iran. If Israel makes this strike, the skyrocketing oil prices will be devastating for modern nations across the world. Oil shortages and a massive increase in prices will effect everyone. Food shortages across the world may also be a result. Of course this is just one possible scenario, and conditions change daily. Perhaps Obama's plan (if it is his true plan) will work and he will be able to forge alliances with the "moderate" arab nations to isolate and collapse this and other evil regimes (which is what Bush tried with Iraq and Afghanistan). But, history tells us that without a strong hand of leadership, and instilling fear in your adversaries, words can have the opposite intended effect. If this war does break out, we can be sure that the conflicts with hamas and hezbollah will intensify to all out war. North Korea is also something to watch as and if this transpires. The nation can be compared to a middle child looking for attention. Hate to bring these things up, but our belief is that if we are quietly prepared for the worst, we are a step ahead of the rest. -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/926a819e/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 11:59:45 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:59:45 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! Message-ID: Hi Cornie, Thanks. I love Canada and used to go waaayyyyyy up north for walleye and pike when my dad was still with us. I even have kinfolk in Ottawa since that is where the family moved to in 1914 after leaving Kiev. Where you stand is right here, next to all the rest of mankind. People seek Hashem, Jew and Gentile alike. Judaism teaches that the Gentiles are to follow the Noahide laws.If you go over to the Synagogue without Walls section of the site, you'll find a good bit of info on that among my posts, with references and proofs to back it up.You also may want to read a book called Path of the Righteous Gentile Here are some websites on the subject: _EmmanuelStudyCentre_ (http://www.noach.com/emmanuel/) _Home - Vendyl Jones Research Institutes_ (http://vjri.purpleguy.com/) _Les 7 lois pour l'humanit?_ (http://7lawsforhumanity.org/organisation.php) You can do a further search on laws of Noah/ Noahide/ B'nei Noach Gentiles seeking Hashem are the same as Jews. We're on the same road, just driving different cars. Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. Be well and shalom, Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring! Date: 3/18/2009 10:57:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _correim at gninc.ca_ (mailto:correim at gninc.ca) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom Hezakiah I don't take the time to read every post. But I find your posts good. I envy you Jews. Than again I guess I have my place in this universe too, even as a goy. It is just that at 73 I am a especially slow learner. I was a Christian most of my life. (Living somewhat boxed in all that time, no radio, TV, or hardly a local paper etc.) I don't even know where you are at, I mean if you are in the US or in Israel or where ever. That maybe does not matter either. I am from central Canada. I have left Christianity, (although I live together with a very devoted Christian wife) but I don't really know for sure where I belong. I do study Judaism a lot, as it seems that is about the safest you can get. Cornie Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > The fact that the PA still teaches that Israel doesn't exist in their > schools is also a big hint with their maps showing all of Israel as > "Palestine". Having them as "partners in peace" is almost like having > a snake in your sleeping bag. I say almost because there is a chance > the snake won't bite you.The scariest part of the whole article is > where it says, > > "The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 > million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which > the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? > > With one mouth the US says it supports Israel yet with the other it > says it is teaching the Arabs to murder Jews. I guess "special forces" > , like "militant", "freedom fighter" and the rest, has become a new PC > term for terrorist. How can the US be fighting a so called war against > terror while training and supplying terrorists?Simple, those > terrorists aren't killing your average American,only Jews. Thanks > again,Hanoch, your posts remain vital info. Shalom,Hez > > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *[Dialogue] Yep, our "Partners in Peace,' how reasuring!* > Date: 3/18/2009 8:19:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: youngbarzel at gmail.com > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent on: > > > PA's Fatah Violates Roadmap Demand to Recognize Israel > > Adar 22, 5769, 18 March 09 09:30 > by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu > > (IsraelNN.com) *Senior Fatah leader Mohammed Dahlan confirmed on > Tuesday that Fatah, which leads the Palestinian Authority, does not > recognize Israel*, one of the basic demands of the Roadmap plan. The > Western world has boycotted the Hamas terrorist organization because > of the same refusal to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. > > The other two requirements in the American-backed Roadmap plan - > renouncing violence and accepting existing agreements - also have been > violated by the PA. > > "I want to say for the thousandth time, in my own name and in the name > of all of my fellow members of the Fatah movement: We do not demand > that the Hamas movement recognize Israel,? Dahlan said on PA television. > > *?On the contrary, we demand of the Hamas movement not to recognize > Israel because the Fatah movement does not recognize Israel even > today, added Dahlan.* He was Fatah?s top official in the Gaza region > until Hamas won a militia war against the rival sect nearly two years > ago. > > Dahlan explained that although Fatah, headed by PA Chairman Mahmoud > Abbas, does not recognize Israel, the PA does -- but only in order to > receive aid from the international community. Western countries have > poured billions of dollars into the Ramallah-based administration. > > The United States this week announced it is spending more than $100 > million on a training base in Jericho for an emerging PA army, which > the State Department refers to as ?special forces.? > > Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, who operate the /Palestinian Media > Watch/ (/PMW/), translated Dahlan?s televised > interview into English. > > In the interview, Dahlan commented, ?The PLO (Palestine Liberation > Organization) in 1993 recognized Israel. As Israel recognized the PLO, > Every person has the right to say 'I do not recognize,' okay? It's > your right. It is the right of every organization.? > > Abbas has stated several times that the PA reserves the right to > violence if Israel does not meet its demands for a new Arab country, > which it wants to establish on the land of Judea, Samaria, Gaza > and eastern Jerusalem. > > The PA also has violated Roadmap conditions and previous agreements > prohibiting incitement and violence against Israel. Fatah?s military > wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorist organization, has carried > out a number of attacks against Israeli civilians since Abbas was > elected to succeed Yasser Arafat after his death in 2004. > > Fatah initially took responsibility this week for the murder of two > Israeli policemen in the Jordan Valley, but the announcement was > quickly followed by a claim of responsibility by a group with a > different name. > > Last week, PA TV celebrated the 31st anniversary of the March 11, 1978 > attack on an Israeli bus, killing 37 civilians. The hour-long program > ?included > file film of PLO training camps, and interviews with a number of > terrorists describing the planning and implementation of the attack.? > Marcus and Cook wrote. > > The narrator opened the program by stating that the attack was ?one of > the most important and most prominent special actions executed by the > Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel > Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led > by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing > events of the Arab-Israeli conflict." > > A new "peace poll" by the Truman Institute at Tel Aviv University and > the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that > 54 percent of PA Arabs support terror attacks inside Israel, compared > with only 42 percent who oppose such attacks. > > www.IsraelNationalNews.com > ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com > Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/65eb0723/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Wed Mar 18 12:31:45 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:31:45 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Exposed: How Palestinian Fixers Manipulate their Media Bosses Message-ID: I subscribe to this . Hez Exposed: How Palestinian Fixers Manipulate their Media Bosses Dear HonestReporting Subscriber, [Click on the button below to view the shocking footage as an Israeli politician is accosted by a former CNN employee.] (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5674/0/) "FIXING" THE FOREIGN PRESS While one refers to the "foreign press" in Israel, most employees are local Israelis or Palestinians who are hired for their language skills, access and local knowledge. Sometimes it isn't enough just to monitor only the news stories and critique the media. The hiring practices of the media organizations can also impact significantly on what news is reported and how decisions are made as to the information reaching Western audiences. It isn't only the personal attitudes or potential bias of a journalist influencing the final article or television report. Other media professionals can also have a major bearing on the construction and direction of a story. Palestinian translators and fixers may be necessary but those with a political agenda can be selective with the information they feed the journalist or, at worst, mistranslate the words of the interview subjects. Writing on the influence of Palestinian organizations on foreign news reporting, the JCPA's _Dan Diker_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5692/0/) noted: According to senior foreign news sources based in Jerusalem, the vast majority of Palestinian fixers - often close friends of Palestinian employees of Jerusalem-based foreign news agencies - are ideologically motivated by the Palestinian cause, and actively encourage journalists to report exclusively on the "evils" of the Israeli occupation, rather than on the lack of democratic freedoms or human rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza. WHO DOES CNN EMPLOY? A case study of this phenomenon is Nidal Rafa who was, until recently, employed for the past few years as a producer for CNN. A simple Google search of her name reveals that she has contributed to many CNN pieces from Israel and the Palestinian territories as well as for other media organizations such as _NPR_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5693/0/) and the _BBC_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5694/0/) . She has also been involved with a number of pro-Palestinian organizations and publications. Now, media analyst and commentator _Tom Gross_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5695/0/) has publicly exposed Nidal Rafa's agenda. Gross was present at a debate in Jerusalem arranged for the media between the Yisrael Beiteinu and Israeli Arab Balad political parties on the issues of citizenship and identity.* During this media event, Rafa crossed the line from media professional to agenda driven activist. Following the debate, the journalists in the room were given the opportunity to ask questions. Rafa, however, launched into a tirade against Yisrael Beiteinu's representative, newly elected Knesset Member and former Israeli Ambassador to the US, Danny Ayalon. Rafa not only breached professional media standards (aggravating even her own colleagues at the debate), but also left us with no doubt as to her personal politics. Gross was sufficiently appalled by what he saw that he posted video footage of this appalling incident, which can be viewed by clicking on the image below. (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5674/0/) Here are some select parts of the exchange between Rafa and Ayalon: NR: The thing is, do you agree that there will be in the future one Palestinian state [..] that all the Palestinians want is to be treated as anyone else in the world....[sic]...when you are making life equal for the people [..] when [their] dream to see Jerusalem... and in the West Bank, and Ramallah and in Jenin [..] you are not suffering at the end of the day and you want people to believe... DA: Please, don't get excited, of course I'm not suffering because I'm not killing anybody. NR: And you want to decide, you want people to believe, that you as previous ambassador to the UN, sorry to say fascist, fascist [..] party... where this party... I am the indigenous people, I have been here as my grandfather was here before the State of Israel [...] Crowd: What's the question, what's the question? NR: ...the whole thing you are talking about is bullshit, you don't want to open your eyes and you keep [being] blind, not to see what's the problem, and it is occupation. DA: Now you know why you don't have a state. NR: And the only guarantee to live here is ending the occupation. Do you not recognize that there is an occupation? Yes or no? YES OR NO? Do you agree that there is an occupation? Do recognize the occupation? Yes or no? Give me an answer and then you can go. [**] DA: I would like first the eradication of terror, first of all, and secondly, your recognition that I have the right to be here, that this my country, I'm not here by anybody's favor. This is my country, this is my land. NR: It's Palestinian land. DA: No its not Palestinian land, this is Jewish land, this is what you have to accept, and if you don't accept it, then we don't even have anything to talk about. ********* Nidal Rafa is, of course, entitled to her personal views and to act on them as she so wishes. However, this should not infringe on professional journalistic ethics. Rafa has used her media access to advance her own pro-Palestinian agenda to the detriment of those journalistic standards claimed by mainstream media outlets such as CNN.. Following her outburst, Tom Gross: spoke with Kevin Flower, the Jerusalem Bureau chief for CNN, and he says Rafa's contract with CNN has been discontinued though he declined to provide a specific reason. Despite this, Rafa handed out her CNN business card to several people, including myself, after her outburst against Danny Ayalon, and said she was still working for CNN. Even if she no longer works there, the question is why CNN employed someone like this for at least the last two years? (There are many examples of anti-Israeli articles co-authored by Rafa on cnn.com. For example, "_Jewish settlers on 'terror' rampage_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5696/0/) ," December 4, 2008.) When I spoke to Rafa it was clear that, like many (but by all means not all) Arab journalists working for CNN, Reuters, the Associated Press and other major Western news providers in the Middle East, she didn?t think there was any contradiction between working as a journalist for an international news outlet and holding extreme anti-Israeli views. How could CNN employ Rafa and how has she been able to push her political agenda on to other media outlets? Some more research reveals that the incident above is not an isolated one. Nidal Rafa's political activism was certainly no secret when various media outlets employed her. An archived Jerusalem Post article from May 30, 2001 referred to three aspiring Israeli women politicians shadowing UK politicians to experience the British democratic process. One of these women was Rafa, who is described as a "Balad activist" and the chair of the radical Arab party's women's unit. RAFA: MANAGING AND MISTRANSLATING FOR THE MEDIA Evidently, Rafa spent some time working as a fixer for other media, including Fox News, before landing a position at CNN. _Ha'aretz_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5697/0/) , in a feature several years ago, accompanied Fox News correspondent at the time, Jennifer Griffin, on a trip to Israel's Wadi Ara region: It is Griffin, aided by an interpreter, who conveys what the Arabs have to say. Here, she is totally dependent on her interpreter Nidal Rafa. Rafa, who is considered a top professional, is an Israeli Arab from Haifa, definitely a Palestinian and a graduate of Bir Zeit University in the West Bank - and she possesses clear political awareness. She is young, opinionated and assertive, and - to put it mildly - she pretty well manages the event. She is not pleased about the team from Ha'aretz Magazine that accompanied Griffin to Bartaa. My initial attempts to strike up a conversation with Griffin were loudly interrupted by the interpreter. When Griffin asks what I can tell her about the Wadi Ara region, as background, I don't manage to get out even one whole sentence before Rafa interjects herself, in English, with an obvious edge to her voice: "I will give you the background," she says: "This whole area was expropriated by Israel from the Arabs. Everything here belonged to the Arabs. There are Jewish settlements such as Katzir and Harish above: villas, beautiful homes. And all of it on our land." During Griffin's interview with the bereaved father, Rafa decides what to translate and what to leave untranslated. "Do you condemn Hamas for sending the suicide bomber who killed your son?" Griffin asks. Rafa translates. Razi Kabha gives a general, unfocused answer, about the protracted conflict. "So you don't condemn Hamas for this suicide bombing?" Griffin wants to know. Rafa gives her a piercing look: "He already answered that. Go on to the next question." Griffin persists. "Nidal, I need you to ask him that again." Rafa argues the point. The two conduct a discussion in English (the camera has been turned off) while the father sits mutely, not understanding what is going on. Finally, Rafa is persuaded and asks the question again, though making it obvious that she is doing so against her will. And so it goes on. Griffin's original plan was to interview the family and the head of the local council in the village. But the plan got changed. Rafa channeled the visit to include the section of the village on the other side of the Green Line. She persuaded Griffin that the visit would be incomplete without visiting the Palestinian section. And so on and so forth. Did Rupert Murdoch and Roger Aisles take this kind of thing into account? Not necessarily. What is certain is that last Thursday, the person who finally decided what their news channel would broadcast from Bartaa was Nidal Rafa. DANGEROUS DOCUMENTARIES Nidal Rafa has a production credit for an infamous 2002 British documentary "Palestine is Still the Issue," produced by notorious anti-Israel polemicist Jon Pilger. _HonestReporting critiqued_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5698/0/) the documentary and even _Michael Green_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5699/0/) , the chairman of Carlton TV, responsible for the broadcast, described it as "factually incorrect, historically incorrect," and a "tragedy for Israel so far as accuracy is concerned." >From start to finish, Pilger's documentary was a veritable encyclopedia of every anti-Israel canard in existence today. But this isn't Nidal Rafa's only involvement with anti-Israel broadcasts. Christiane Amanpour's six-hour documentary "_God's Warriors_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5700/0/) " earned CNN's senior correspondent our 2007 _Dishonest Reporter Award_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5701/0/) . To recall, Amanpour's series: * Equated years-old isolated cases of Jewish extremism with Islamic terror that has killed thousands of people in New York, London, Madrid, Bali, Amman, etc. * Spuriously claimed that fringe elements of world Jewry succeeded in hijacking Israeli and American government policy. * Addressed radical Islam with kid gloves. * Belittled religious belief in general. Listed as one of _those involved_ (http://relay.netatlantic..com/t/26946888/69351102/5702/0/) in the production of this highly contentious documentary is Nidal Rafa. While Christiane Amanpour needs no assistance in formulating her own views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, how much influence did Rafa have on some of the biased and one-sided content that featured in "God's Warriors"? MEDIA MANIPULATION: A CONTINUING PROBLEM HonestReporting has also _previously addressed_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5703/0/) the issue of biased and unprofessional Palestinian media employees after the Jerusalem Post exposed how two of the largest wire services - Agence France-Presse (AFP) and Associated Press (AP) - had employed journalists with inappropriately close ties to the Palestinian Authority. Perhaps the most infamous manipulation of the media by a Palestinian stringer was that of cameraman Talal Abu Rahmeh. His edited footage and sole testimony from Gaza in 2000 was the basis for France 2's discredited report on Mohammed al-Dura. (See HonestReporting's "_The Big Lies_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/4425/0/) " interactive presentation for more on the case.) In 2004, the BBC's Fayad Abu Shamala _was exposed_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5704/0/) as a possible Hamas member after Ha'aretz reported on a Hamas preacher caught on tape stating "that Hamas man Faiz Abu Smala works for the BBC, and that way he writes the story in favor of the Islam [sic] and Muslims." This was the same BBC employee who, in 2001, told a Hamas rally in Gaza (attended by the then Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin) that journalists and media organizations in Gaza, including the BBC, are "waging the campaign shoulder-to-shoulder together with the Palestinian people." Following the kidnapping of BBC reporter Alan Johnston, a _Hamas member who worked for the BBC_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5705/0/) (_confirmed as Abu Shamala_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5709/0/) ) was allowed to enter Gaza to assist in efforts to free Johnston. This raised serious questions concerning the BBC's hiring policies. As a result of the kidnapping, the foreign media fled Gaza and the vacuum was filled by local Palestinian stringers. In 2007, the _Jerusalem Post_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5706/0/) noted the problems of using only Palestinian stringer-produced material: "The people who use the stringers have to sift their material very carefully," says Jay Bushinsky, a veteran member of the Foreign Press Association. "You have to be naive to believe that in a place like Gaza you can be a fair-minded reporter. They have a mission and they don't give anything detrimental to their leadership." It is clear that Nidal Rafa went beyond the boundaries that a media professional should be expressing in public. Rafa was at this event in her capacity as a media professional and not as a Palestinian activist. If Rafa is unable to separate the personal from the professional in this setting, how can we trust content from CNN or other media organizations to which Rafa has contributed? As Tom Gross notes, there are many Arab employees of media organizations carrying out a professional job under trying circumstances. Nidal Rafa is not one of them. Media organizations need to make far greater efforts to avoid hiring Palestinian activists as journalists and producers in the future. * This debate was one of many events held by _MediaCentral_ (http://relay..netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5707/0/) , an independent project of HonestReporting which provides services to foreign journalists visiting or based in Israel. As with many of MediaCentral's briefings, footage of the event was posted online, and after a number of journalists present protested the hostility and partisanship of Nidal Rafa, Tom Gross posted this excerpt as noted and brought the matter to the attention of HonestReporting. HonestReporting. com _Click here to comment on this special report. _ () Thank you for your involvement in responding to media bias. _To support our work, donate here today._ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/4025/0/) To View this article online, click _here_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/5711/0/) . To subscribe to HonestReporting, enter your email at the top of our _homepage_ (http://relay.netatlantic.com/t/26946888/69351102/4014/0/) . **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/e84fb30b/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:21:10 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:21:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Somethng to Keep Our Eyes Open For In-Reply-To: <031820091613.15813.49C11DB60008701300003DC522243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <031820091613.15813.49C11DB60008701300003DC522243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Yes, thank you, Cody. That was a terrific summation of things we should be watching. We know the eventual outcome will be the Glorious Reign of HaShem, but for a while it will be tough-going down here!!!!! Pat From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Somethng to Keep Our Eyes Open For Thanks Cody, I for one am watching all of this very closely. Keep a close eye on the Palistan/Afghanistan conflict as well as rising tensions with China and Mexico. The perfect storm is brewing. Like you I hate to bring this stuff up and we all know that HaShem is in charge and will protect us. But we need to keep watch and be ready. I can assure you that much of the population of the US is oblivious to all that is happening with thier eyes glued to Wall Street thanks to our "unbiased" media. I try to pass on as much as can to those I know outside the list. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Just thought I'd relay some things that my boss and I have been talking about: As many have heard, Russia and Iran signed a contract a couple of years ago for a missile defense system to be installed in Iran to prevent a now imminent strike on its nuclear facilities. This installation has been put on hold due to the obvious outcome, which in reality Russia is planning for. There are a few keys signs that we should watch for over the next couple of months. Iran's elections will take place next month, with the US quietly supporting the opposition to Ahmadinejad. But the outcome makes no difference in reality, since the president of Iran is only a puppet. Netanyahu has had some difficulty putting together a strong coalition, and it is possible that he will settle for a temporary six month government. He will do this in order to continue preparations for a strike on Iran. The window is very small. If this strike takes place, Iran could retaliate with a few strategic strikes on oil lines as well as closing the Straight of Hormuz. The possible result could be gas prices of $20 a gallon at the pumps, during a time of a world wide depression. American interests could also be targeted throughout the Middle East. This could cause the United States to be dragged into a war with Iran. It could also be forced into other areas in the Middle East. The outcome could be a backlash of antisemitism like never seen before, as well as the destruction of an historical relationship between two nations, The United States and Israel. Obama still believes that he can avoid a fight with Iran. If Israel makes this strike, the skyrocketing oil prices will be devastating for modern nations across the world. Oil shortages and a massive increase in prices will effect everyone. Food shortages across the world may also be a result. Of course this is just one possible scenario, and conditions change daily. Perhaps Obama's plan (if it is his true plan) will work and he will be able to forge alliances with the "moderate" arab nations to isolate and collapse this and other evil regimes (which is what Bush tried with Iraq and Afghanistan). But, history tells us that without a strong hand of leadership, and instilling fear in your adversaries, words can have the opposite intended effect. If this war does break out, we can be sure that the conflicts with hamas and hezbollah will intensify to all out war. North Korea is also something to watch as and if this transpires. The nation can be compared to a middle child looking for attention. Hate to bring these things up, but our belief is that if we are quietly prepared for the worst, we are a step ahead of the rest. -Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/c45c1cb8/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 14:27:37 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Somethng to Keep Our Eyes Open For Message-ID: <210991.112.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Exactly, it's definitely the Perfect Storm. ? China, Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela,?Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Mexico, North Korea......just off the top of my head. ? Not to mention the fraud going on with AIG, Fannie, and Freddie.... It's all smoke and mirrors. ? ? "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/14da14e6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 18 15:08:06 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:08:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Hadn't Heard About This Part Before. Message-ID: <031820092008.1566.49C1549F000A017B0000061E22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Analysis: US deployment of F-22 may give Iran nuclear diplomacy more time By THOMAS CRIMMINS The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) released its most recent report on Iran's nuclear activities, indicating that the Islamic Republic may have produced enough low-enriched uranium for its first nuclear weapon (if further enriched), on February 19. The F-22 can avoid radar detection. Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister-designate Binyamin Netanyahu is putting together a right-leaning government that, in his own words, would consider an Iranian nuclear weapon as "the gravest threat to [Israel's] existence since the war of independence." To complicate matters, Russia is considering the sale of the advanced S-300 air defense system to Iran, which is considered a "game changing" move that could affect Israel's calculus about whether, and when, to launch a preventive strike against Iran's nuclear infrastructure. This confluence of events - and the prospective transfer of the S-300 in particular - underscores the need for the United States to consider actions that could buy additional time to enable diplomacy to work. Reports of a possible Russian transfer of the S-300 to Iran are cloaked in uncertainty, with questions remaining as to which version is even being discussed. The S-300PMU-2 is a highly advanced, extremely capable air defense system known in the West as the SA-20. It is a highly mobile system, capable of intercepting low-altitude cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and high-altitude bombers. It can engage targets from altitudes as low as about 9 meters up to about 27,400 meters, and from a range of about 4.8 km. out to some 150 km. As a result, former commander of US Air Force Air Combat Command, Gen. (Ret.) Richard Hawley, said last August, "For non-stealth aircraft, the SA-20 represents a virtual no-fly zone." By contrast, the S-300V is a less capable system known in the West as the SA-12. The S-300V, in tandem with the Tor-M1 (SA-15) air defense system, are key elements of Moscow's air defense network, and it is possible that the S-300V is being considered for sale to Iran because it would integrate extremely well with the version of the Tor-M1 already deployed there. When pressed, Moscow denies any intention of selling the S-300PMU-2 to Iran, deftly avoiding discussion of the S-300V. In an attempt to influence the international environment and demoralize its enemies, Teheran is encouraging rumors that it is set to receive the S-300PMU-2, thus furthering the confusion. Teheran's tactics may be having an effect. Israel currently believes that its F-15I and F-16I aircraft maintain a viable strike option against Iranian nuclear targets. As long as this remains the case, Israel may remain receptive to US requests to give diplomacy more time. Increasingly clear, however, is that Israel regards the S-300 (in any configuration) as closing an important window of opportunity; Iran's acquisition of the S-300 would render Israel's current strike options dramatically more difficult, and could force Israel to considerably move forward any strike timetable. Should diplomacy fail, the United States can mount a powerful strike, regardless of the state of Iran's air defenses; Israel, operating at extreme range with the F-15I and F-16I, cannot. The F-22 fighter, however, might represent a trump card that could dissuade Russia from transferring the new air defense systems or that could preserve Israeli options should Russia go through with the sale. One possible option would be to use the proposed forward deployment of the F-22 to the region, or its transfer to Israel, as a means of slowing this timeline so additional international pressure can be brought to bear on Iran. There is little doubt that the F-22 can neutralize the S-300. As US Air Force Association President Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Dunn stated last December, "Only the F-22 can survive in airspace defended by increasingly capable surface-to-air missiles" such as the S-300. Accordingly, the United States could deploy the F-22 to the region - for example, to bases in friendly Persian Gulf Arab states. Although the F-15s and F-16s already deployed to the region are more than capable for the current counterinsurgency fights in Iraq and Afghanistan, they would not be able to threaten Iran's nuclear infrastructure were the Islamic Republic to be armed with the S-300. As Ambassador Nancy Soderberg pointed out recently (at the release of The Washington Institute's Presidential Task Force report, "Preventing a Cascade of Instability: US Engagement to Check Iranian Nuclear Progress"), the United States "ha[s] lost the ability to scare" its adversaries in the region. Forward deployment of the F-22 could restore the credibility of the military option by indicating that it remains alive, and might even cause the Russians to reconsider the sale of S-300s to Iran. Alternatively, but more problematic, is the export of the F-22 to Israel to deal with the S-300 threat. Israel has long wanted to add the advanced fighter to its arsenal, but the F-22's export to any nation has been banned for over a decade as a result of the Obey amendment, which states that "None of the funds in this act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government." This amendment has been included in every defense appropriations act since 1998 in order to preserve the US commercial edge and technological superiority. These concerns could be overcome by advanced anti-tamper measures and strict export controls. And while Congressman Obey stated in 2006 that "Times may have changed, but I don't know that we are yet at the point that would justify removing these limitations," it may well be that in light of the Iranian nuclear threat and the possible introduction of the S-300 to the Iranian arsenal, the time may be ripe to rescind the restrictions and consider export of the F-22 to Israel. Repeal of the Obey amendment (which would require congressional action) would not automatically authorize an arms sale to the Israel Air Force, but would allow the export to be decided on its merits. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/4f1bc197/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Mar 18 16:37:32 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:37:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is on first base ? Message-ID: <49C1699C.5040803@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/44f075bd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: JPELOG~1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 22939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/44f075bd/attachment.jpe From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:13:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:13:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is on first base ? In-Reply-To: <49C1699C.5040803@westnet.com.au> References: <49C1699C.5040803@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903182013tcc6af40t8987630782003b90@mail.gmail.com> Hey Joe, This would be funny if it wasn't SO true. We have much to do.... * Hanoch * On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:37 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > > *NO WONDER WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR ISRAEL ... ... AND THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM > ... ... ...* > ** > *WE DO LOVE HER!!!!!!!* > ** > > > > Following is a satirical look at politics today in Israel, it is written > by: Barry Silverberg. It may sound and look very confusing, and the reason > is, because the whole system is in fact confusing and far from any real > picture of western world kind of democracy. The feeling in the land is "who > is on first" and "who is on second" kind of feeling. The majority of the > people in Israel voted for a party which in various ways stands with and for > the land of Israel. Yet it is more than possible that a very different kind > of government will ultimately rule. After reading this please do continue to > hold up this nation in prayer, because in the end it could be very far from > being comical. > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > > ** > *THE KNESSET LESSON * > > > > > > by: Barry Silverberg > > a comic piece > in the tradition of ?theatre of the absurd?. > > > > Teacher: Good morning. Your parents. . . invited me today. . . to give > you a private lesson in Israeli . . . citizenship. > > Pupil: Yeah, we made Aliah from Vancouver last month and I ?m missing a > lot of material in Ezrahoot, though I did try to follow the news before we > came. > > Teacher: Not to worry. Today we?ll talk about, ?how the Israeli > electoral system works.? > > Pupil: That?s great. I?m really confused by what I read in the > papers and blogs. > > Teacher: Let?s start with the results of last week?s . . . elections. > > Pupil: OK. Who got the most votes? > > Teacher: Tsippi Livni, head of the Kadima (=forward) party, with 28 seats. > > > Pupil: So Ms. Livni won, right? > > Teacher: No, she lost. It doesn?t look like she?ll be able to get enough > partners to form a majority government. > > Pupil: What about Bibi Netanyahu? > > Teacher: He got 27 seats. As the leader of the right, he may form a > coalition of 65 right wing party seats. > > Pupil: Then he won, I guess. > > Teacher: No, Avigdor Lieberman (Israel is Our Home) won. > > Pupil: How many seats did he get? > > Teacher 15. > > Pupil: So how did he win? > > Teacher: That?s the way politics in Israel works. > > Pupil: It?s confusing with three major parties! > > Teacher: What, three? Who told you three? There?s also the labor party. > They once were the largest party in Israel, and ruled for the first 30 > years. Today they have 11 seats. > > Pupil: Four parties? How do you ever get anyth- > > Teacher: Stop interrupting me! Four? Who told you four? There?s also > Shas: > > Pupil: What?s Shas? > > Teacher: Ultra orthodox Moroccans. They appeared on the scene some twenty > years ago and they have around 12 seats today. > > Pupil: How bewildering. What are the main issues that divide the > parties? > > Teacher: The crucial issue is the ?territories? that Israel gained during > the war in 1967. If you believe that these areas are an integral part of > Israel and that Jews should continue to live there, you are on the ?right.? > If you believe that Israel should withdraw from these territories, or make > some kind of compromise, then you are on the ?left.? > > Pupil: I read that Bibi supported the retreat from Gaza and the expulsion > of 10,000 Jews . His party must be really far left. Right? > > Teacher: Right. I mean, no, he ?s on the right. His Likud party has > always been right. > > Pupil: What about Lieberman? > > Teacher: He says that there?s too much power in the hands of rabbis. He > wants secular marriage and religious freedom. > > Pupil: So he?s the extreme left. Right? > > Teacher: Wrong! Wrong! Wrong again! He?s way right. Extreme left is > ?Meretz?. Their slogan is ?We won?t compromise.? > > Pupil: That makes them radical right, right? > > Teacher: You have snow for brains, I see. Wrong; LEFT! They refuse all > compromise , unless, of course, it is with Arabs. Some of them actually > believe that the Jewish state should not exist. > > Pupil: I?m getting dizzy. So, all 120 Knesset seats will be taken by > these six parties. That?s really a lot. > > Teacher: You?re kidding me, right? What, six? Who told you six? You?ve > forgotten National Religious parties: The Jewish Home party, for Jewish > settlement of Judah and Samaria, and the National Union, who are really > really absolutely for Jewish settlement of Judah and Samaria. Then there > are also ultra orthodox Ashkenazim. Some of them actually believe that > the Jewish state should not exist. > > Pupil: Like Meretz, correct? > > Teacher: Corr- what, are you crazy? Stop blathering and let me finish: > There are also three parties exclusively for Arabs. > > Pupil: Let me guess: Some of the Arabs actually believe that the Jewish > state should not exist. > > Teacher: Now you?re catching on. > > Pupil: I can?t catch on to anything. I?ve had it! This is too much for > me! No country has twelve separate parties! > > Teacher: What twelve? Who told you twelve? Where are you going? We?ve > just started. There?s the male rights party, so all those divorced men > whose wives got custody can take their kids out of the house. There?s the > pensioner?s party, to help the elderly get more often out of the house. > There?s the handicapped party, who want to get out of the house and have a > place to go, and there?s For the Kids? Sake, which is trying to put kids > taken out of their non functional households back into the house. Of > course you can?t overlook ?Hadash.? > > Pupil: (glazed eyes): That means ?new.? > > Teacher: Very good. They want a new system: Communism. > > Then we have ?The Strong Israel party. They promise to fight organized > crime. Unfortunately, Kadima is organized crime. There?s also Tsomet-- > > Pupil: STOP! STOP! > > Teacher: Very good. Stop for the Tsomet party. The name means > ?intersection.? > > Pupil: NO! STOP STOP!! I can?t take any more. > > Teacher: You must listen! What about ?Leader?? -- to curb the monopoly of > the banks? > > The ?Light? Party? The ?Responsibility Party?? the ?Noodleman Renewal > Russian Party?? > > Pupil: (writhing on floor): No, this cannot be real. Make it stop! > > Teacher: The Green Party to save the environment. > > Pupil: ( weaker) Nooooooooooooooooo. > > Teacher: The Leftist Religious Green Party, who are in favor of > territorial compromise as long as we first separate the territory into > glass, plastic and organic. > > Pupil: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! > > Teacher: The Green Leaf party fighting to legalize cannabis. > > Pupil: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! > > Teacher: And most important, The Green Leaf Senior/ Holocaust Survivor > Merger Party, who will fight for the right to smoke their old cannabis and > get more reparations at the same time. > > Pupil: ( is now lying motionless on the floor). > > Teacher: What?s the matter with him. We?ve only gone through the first > 28! > > Twenty -eight? Who told you twenty-eight! Hey, get up! There?s a lot > more to do! > > . . . . . . . . . (sighs). . .What do you > expect a Canadian kid to know about democracy! > > > > Note: The above is based on a true political system. In the Israeli > elections held on Feb 10, there were THIRTY SEVEN separate lists! While the > above sketch is not conclusive, not one party mentioned above is made up; no > matter how much they look it. > > > > > > > *Mashiach now !!!!!! > JOE* > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/e4f4aa72/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 22939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090318/e4f4aa72/attachment.jpe From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Mar 19 02:00:11 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:00:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The forgotten Jews. Message-ID: <49C1ED7B.1060002@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/92f0c3d1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 05:01:53 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:01:53 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The forgotten Jews. In-Reply-To: <49C1ED7B.1060002@westnet.com.au> References: <49C1ED7B.1060002@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370903190301p562045easc4f809c87d02b36d@mail.gmail.com> Shalom Joe, It is very sad...they had their chance(s) to leave but *chose* to stay. I often wonder how many German Jews had made similar choices in 1936-1939.... * Hanoch * On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:00 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Chaverim, > > after Hanoch's recent post regarding the Jewish population in Germany , > spare a thought and a prayer for the forgotten Jews of Iran who are in grave > peril as the final countdown towards the end of days speeds towards the > final crescendo. > > There are over 25,000 Jews still living in Iran. > Pray that HaShem's mercy protects them and enables them to make a quick > escape. > * > http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_5360000/newsid_5369400/bb_wm_5369420.stm > > *For those of you who can speak Dutch ,this is also a very interesting > documentary on the Jews of Iran. > For those of you who cannot, you may still find it to be fascinating as you > will see the culture of a people that dates back to the time of Mordechai > and Esther. > This was sent by Heidi's step uncle, Ben Meyer in Rotterdam. > *http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nikmedia/archief/bb.20060108.asf > > *This is possibly the most dangerous place on Earth , second to Israel for > the Jewish community. > But then again Israel might end up being the safest and only place for the > Jews . > > May HaShem's light shine through His people on a sick, dying and dark > world. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/51abba15/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 06:24:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 04:24:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] VaYakheil: Chossing a Leader Message-ID: <855590370903190424v5d7d22f7u58e7d29492ebfbfa@mail.gmail.com> Rav Kook on the Torah Portion VaYakheil *Choosing a Leader* ------------------------------ Gold from the Land of Israel 368 pages, hardcover, online price: $20.50 *"This is the best English-language introduction to the thought of Rav Kook!"* - Rabbi Dovid Sears ------------------------------ *VaYakheil: Choosing a Leader* *Betzalel's Appointment* God informed Moses of Betzalel?s appointment to oversee the construction of the Tabernacle, and Moses subsequently apprised the people. According to the Midrash [*Berachot* 55a], however, this was not just a perfunctory notification. "God asked, 'Moses, is Betzalel acceptable to you?' 'Master of the world,' exclaimed Moses, 'if he is acceptable to You, then certainly he is acceptable to me!' 'Nevertheless, I want you to speak with the people.' "So Moses went to the people, and asked them, 'Is Betzalel acceptable to you?' 'If he is acceptable to God and to you,' responded the people, 'then certainly he is acceptable to us!' The Sages learned from this story a lesson in public appointments: one should seek the people?s approval before assigning a leader. Still, it seems superfluous for God Himself to consult with Moses and the people. Certainly God knows who is best qualified to organize the Tabernacle construction; why bother consulting with Moses and the people? Was this just a formality, out of politeness? *Three Qualifications for a Leader* A great leader must possess three qualities. These qualities differ in relative importance and the ease by which they may be recognized. The first trait of leadership is integrity and purity of soul. This is an inner quality, only fully revealed to the One Who examines innermost thoughts and feelings. It is also the key trait of true leadership. The second quality sought in a leader is the wisdom needed to successfully guide the people. This quality is recognizable to people - but not to all people. Only the astute can accurately gauge a leader's sagacity. While not as crucial as the trait of personal integrity, an administrator cannot successfully lead the people without good judgment and political acumen. The final quality that marks a successful leader consists of external talents apparent to all, such as charisma and eloquence. While these qualities are less important that the previous two, they certainly contribute to a leader's popularity and effectiveness. The order is, of course, important. Candidates who excel only in the superficial qualifications make poor and even corrupt leaders. Good leadership is based on honesty and integrity. Upon these traits, the other two levels, political acumen and charisma, are built. The Midrash about Betzalel reflects this prioritization. First, God affirmed Betzalel's qualifications in terms of those inner qualities that only God can truly know. While critical, these traits of integrity and purity are not sufficient. Therefore, He consulted with a wise leader - Moses - whether Betzalel also qualified in terms of the political wisdom necessary for the position. And finally, the people were consulted whether Betzalel met the qualifications that they sought in a popular leader. [*Gold from the Land of Israel* , pp. 166-167. Adapted from *Ein Eyah* vol. II, p. 262] Rav Kook on the Net: RavKookTorah.org This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr This Dvar Torah: VAYAKHEL60.htm To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook List --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com http://ravkooktorah.org - Rav A.I. Kook on the Weekly Parasha http://ravkook.co.nr - This week's dvar Torah http://gold-israel.co.nr - Order your copy of "Gold from the Land of Israel" -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/16faf993/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 06:33:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 04:33:59 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... Message-ID: <855590370903190433r326cbdd1y460f8b00acec10ea@mail.gmail.com> It's so wonderful that Obama got such a majority of the Jewish vote... * Hanoch* America 'Moves Towards Abandonment of Israel' Adar 23, 5769, 19 March 09 04:26 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) An unnamed former highly-placed U.S.intelligence official has broken silence and says that America may soon be abandoning Israel in favor of the Arabs. ?This is just the beginning?, he said, "Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States.." The source made these remarks in an exclusive interview with Douglas J. Hagmann , the director of the Northeast Intelligence Network (NIN), which is comprised of veteran licensed professional investigators, analysts, military affairs specialists and researchers. The group has combined their resources to provide accurate and well-sourced information via their website. Hagmann appeared on *Israel National Radio's* Weekend Edition with host Tamar Yonah . [image: http://News/News.aspx/130501130501] Click to listen When questioned about the possible abandonment of Israel by America, Hagmann told Yonah, "The Obama administration is no friend to Israel, is no friend to the Jews in America and is no friend to democracy or freedom in America. ?Just by his very appointments, we can see him *filling positions of power with people who are anti-Semitic, who want to see Israel essentially dissolved as a nation, if not by diplomacy, then certainly by war."* In his report, the unnamed intelligence source told Hagmann, ?I have every reason to believe, based on what I?ve seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own? or worse.? He explained this would happen ?when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel?s defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation.? Haggman told Yonah that this official broke silence because he had already retired from his highly placed position, and because of his knowledge of the NIN's (Northeast Intelligence Network) position as pro-Israel and the way it valued the relationship between Israel and America. Another reason, he said, was his own perception of the Biblical aspect of this scenario developing. The intelligence officer explained that the turnover of American policy towards Israel could occur through a manner that he dubbed 'malicious intelligence," which Haggman defined as information that is taken from its raw form. It then is morphed into something else to promote different interests, "where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? he said. A method ?that has been molded and massaged to advance the agendas of a select few,? he elaborated. In the case of the relationship between America and Israel, he noted, malicious intelligence is being used to turn over the U.S. to a more anti-Israel policy and forge ahead with a more pro-PA or pro-Islamist one. Hagmann told Yonah in the radio interview, "*A perfect example of this is when there was a shooting in Seattle a couple of years ago at a Jewish center. The police were ordered by the city officials and by the Federal Government, basically, to not protect the synagogues and other Jewish centers in Seattle, but to have protection details [instead] at the mosques in Seattle."* U.S. administrations have apparently been following a policy of abandoning Israel for several years, according to Hagmann's report. His interview with the intelligence official cited *"the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today [rocket and missile fire on Israel], it was done anyway," he stated.* In the report that Hagmann posted on the NIN (Northeast Intelligence Network) he cited one of his sources explaining, ?Now you can see where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? " the Obama administration is being purposely filled with people who are truly anti-Israel, either because of their own financial interests or a larger globalist agenda that does not include Israel, or for that matter, the United States as a sovereign nation. "Whatever the reason, the anti-Israel, pro-Islamist policy makers will be appointed or have already infiltrated nearly all levels of the U.S. government. These are the people who place anti-Semitic references in school textbooks, promote revisionist history regarding Islam, 9/11, and are the same people who allow or even promote the Islamic agendas in all aspects of Western society, especially the restrictions on speech against Islam. "With regard to the latter, note that the United Nations is quite involved in forcing the restriction of ?hate speech? and the implementation of global standards, some that have already been adapted by European nations,? noted the source. Hagmann reports that "the Middle East will be the site of 'the coming war,' and Israel will be at its epicenter. If we survive as a nation, the U.S. will not be on the side of righteousness in this war, instead turning our back to - or our guns against - our only true friend in the Middle East - Israel," he said. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/a95cd8c7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 06:38:06 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 04:38:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "A Tale of Two Mountains" Message-ID: <855590370903190438l2ed8f964ydb66c4d63b4b22eb@mail.gmail.com> A Tale of Two Mountains Adar 19, 5769, 15 March 09 10:19 by by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) There was a great pilgrimage to the Western Wall of the Temple Mount - Mount Moriah - about a week after the Six-Day War. This pilgrimage took place on the Festival of Shavuos, when we celebrate the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. This pilgrimage evoked our memory of the pilgrimage to the Temple during the Biblical period, as our People were given the *mitzvah* - Divine mandate - to make a pilgrimage to the Holy Sanctuary three times a year. The Torah states that this pilgrimage should take place on "the Festival of Matzos, the Festival of Shavuos, and the Festival of Succos." (*Devarim* / Deuteronomy 16:16) When the Holy Sanctuary was established in Jerusalem through the building of the Temple on Mount Moriah, the People made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, as it is written: "I rejoiced when they said to me, 'Let us go to the House of *HaShem*.' Our feet stood firm within your gates, O Jerusalem." (*Tehillim* / Psalms 122:1-2) This leads to the following question: Why were we not given a *mitzvah* to make a pilgrimage to Mount Sinai? At the very least, we should have been told to make the pilgrimage to Mount Sinai on the Festival of Shavuos, when we celebrate the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. I would like to suggest that the beginning of an answer can be found in the following statement of Moses, our teacher, in his farewell address to our People before we entered the Land: "See! I have taught you statutes and social laws, as *HaShem*, my God, has commanded me, to do so in the midst of the Land to which you come, to possess it. You shall safeguard and fulfill them, for it is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the Peoples, who shall hear all these statutes and who shall say, 'Surely a wise and understanding people is this great nation!'" (*Devarim* / Deuteronomy 4:5-6) The goal of the Revelation of the Torah on Mount Sinai is to fulfill the Torah in the Land. Through entering the Land, we are to develop a model society through "living" the Torah, as the *mitzvos* of the Torah relate to all areas of life. We were reminded of this spiritual goal when we made the pilgrimage to the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah, for within the Holy of Holies of the Temple was the Ark of the Covenant, and within the Ark were the Tablets of the Covenant that we received at Mount Sinai. On the Tablets of the Covenant were written the Ten Commandments and, according to the *Zohar*, the classical work on the hidden wisdom of the Torah, the Ten Commandments are the underlying principles of all the *mitzvos* of the Torah (*Yisro* 93b). Within one of the courtyards of the Temple on Mount Moriah was the Chamber of Hewn Stone, where the Supreme Court of Torah Sages - later known as the Sanhedrin - guided our People through their Torah teachings and through their decisions regarding Torah law. In a reference to these Torah teachings, the *Midrash* explains that the name "Moriah" is related to the word *hora'ah* - "teaching"; thus, a reason why this mountain was called "Moriah" is because from this sacred site, the teachings of the Torah will eventually go out "to the world" (Genesis *Rabbah* 55:7). The *Midrash* adds that "Moriah" is also related to the word *ohr* - "light"; thus, another reason why the Temple Mount was called "Moriah" is because from this sacred site, light will go out "to the world" (*ibid.*). In his commentary on this *Midrash*, Rashi explains that this spiritual light will come from "the Sanhedrin in the Chamber of Hewn Stone"; moreover, Rashi mentions that the Prophet Isaiah alludes to this light when he proclaimed, "For from Zion will go forth Torah." (Yeshayahu / Isaiah 2:3) The Temple on Mount Moriah is to serve as a center of Torah, the Divine Teaching. This is why it contains the Ark of the Covenant with the Tablets of the Covenant, as well as the chamber for the Supreme Court of Torah Sages. The Temple, therefore, reminds us that the goal of the Revelation at Mount Sinai is to fulfill the Torah in the Land; thus, we make the pilgrimage to Mount Moriah and not to Mount Sinai. This insight can help us to understand why Rabbi Yehudah Halevi, one of the great Jewish philosophers of the Middle Ages, wrote, "The Land of Israel is called the place of the Torah." (*Kuzari* 2:20) The above teachings indicate that the spiritual significance of Mount Sinai is to be sought in the Temple on Mount Moriah. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, a leading 19th century sage and Biblical commentator, finds an allusion to this idea in the following words from Psalms 68:18, which he translates as: "Sinai in the Sanctuary." In his commentary on these words, Rabbi Hirsch writes: "Now Mount Sinai is no longer to be sought in the wilderness, but may be found within the Sanctuary which God caused human hands to erect for Him." The *Chofetz Chaim*, a leading sage of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, offers a related teaching which can give us another perspective on why we make the pilgrimage to Mount Moriah and not to Mount Sinai. He explains that the People of Israel are a holistic unity of body and soul, and he writes: "The soul of Israel is the holy Torah, and the body of Israel is the Land of Israel." (*Chofetz Chaim* on the Torah, *parshas Bo*) Just as the soul needs the body in order to fulfill its mission in this world, so too, the Torah needs the Land of Israel in order to fulfill its mission in this world. This is why the *Chofetz Chaim* reminds us that many *mitzvos* of the Torah can only be fulfilled in the Land (*ibid.*). "But the Land of Israel without the Torah", stresses the *Chofetz Chaim*, "is a body without a soul." (*ibid.*) We therefore need the harmonious interaction of the soul and the body - the Torah and the Land of Israel. The *Chofetz Chaim* finds an allusion to this idea in the following statement, wherein *HaShem* proclaims that He is the One "who firmed the land and its produce, who gave a soul to the people upon it." (Yeshayahu / Isaiah 42:5) The above teaching of the *Chofetz Chaim* leads to the following insight: If we would make the pilgrimage to Mount Sinai where we received the Torah, we would be journeying to the place which represents the soul of our People, but not the body. When, however, we make the pilgrimage to the Temple on Mount Moriah, the center of the Torah within the Land of Israel, we are journeying to the place which represents the holistic unity of our body and soul. Throughout our long and painful exile, we yearned for the rebuilding of the Temple on Mount Moriah so that we can once again experience this holistic pilgrimage. We therefore sing the following words at the Shabbos table: "May the Temple be rebuilt; may the City of Zion be full of pilgrims; there we shall sing a new song, and with joyous singing ascend." (*Tzur MeShelo*) *copyright (c) 2008 by Mr. Yosef Ben Shlomo HaKohen* www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/2dd8ebf7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 07:35:31 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:35:31 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today, 23 Adar Message-ID: <855590370903190535m5d45072p882bfa2131948a1b@mail.gmail.com> "The argument of the nations here is that we must achieve unity and break down the walls of separation. Is this not fair and logical according the the false thinking of the worshippers of foriegn culture? Is not the unity of all nations and the disappearance of the differences between Israel and the nations the goal of the Hellenists...." "G-d decreed upon holy Israel that they must be separated from impurity and from the impure nations. The idolatry and foreign culture of the nations cannot coexist with G-d's Torah or with G-d himself." *Rabbi Meir Kahane h"yd, z"l, Or HaRa'ayon* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/4b648d63/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 07:48:59 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:48:59 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today, 23 Adar Message-ID: Worse than Jews for Jesus Worse than Jews for Gurus Worse than Jews for Marx Jews for Nothing. Rabbi Meir Kahane Rabbi Kahane's statement about apathy above says a lot more words than it contains. ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Quote for today, 23 Adar Date: 3/19/2009 8:35:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: "The argument of the nations here is that we must achieve unity and break down the walls of separation. Is this not fair and logical according the the false thinking of the worshippers of foriegn culture? Is not the unity of all nations and the disappearance of the differences between Israel and the nations the goal of the Hellenists...." "G-d decreed upon holy Israel that they must be separated from impurity and from the impure nations. The idolatry and foreign culture of the nations cannot coexist with G-d's Torah or with G-d himself." Rabbi Meir Kahane h"yd, z"l, Or HaRa'ayon _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/5c14630d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 08:05:08 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:05:08 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... Message-ID: The Torah warns against aligning ourselves with the nations. From the temptations of the Hitites to Jews saying in Germany that nothing will happen because they were good and loyal Germans, doing so has always come back to bite us; often with extremely dire results.We are told to depend on Hashem and ourselves. Maybe it's time to pay attention to that. Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... Date: 3/19/2009 7:34:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: It's so wonderful that Obama got such a majority of the Jewish vote... Hanoch America 'Moves Towards Abandonment of Israel' Adar 23, 5769, 19 March 09 04:26 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) An unnamed former highly-placed U.S.intelligence official has broken silence and says that America may soon be abandoning Israel in favor of the Arabs. ?This is just the beginning?, he said, "Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States.." The source made these remarks in an _exclusive interview with Douglas J. Hagmann_ (http://homelandsecurityus.com/?p=25) , the director of the _Northeast Intelligence Network_ (https://homelandsecurityus.com/) (NIN), which is comprised of veteran licensed professional investigators, analysts, military affairs specialists and researchers. The group has combined their resources to provide accurate and well-sourced information via their website.. Hagmann appeared on Israel National Radio's _Weekend Edition with host Tamar Yonah_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/754) . _Click to listen_ (mip://038e1350/News/News.aspx/130501130501) When questioned about the possible abandonment of Israel by America, Hagmann told Yonah, "The Obama administration is no friend to Israel, is no friend to the Jews in America and is no friend to democracy or freedom in America. ? Just by his very appointments, we can see him filling positions of power with people who are anti-Semitic, who want to see Israel essentially dissolved as a nation, if not by diplomacy, then certainly by war." In his report, the unnamed intelligence source told Hagmann, ?I have every reason to believe, based on what I?ve seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own? or worse.? He explained this would happen ?when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel?s defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation.? Haggman told Yonah that this official broke silence because he had already retired from his highly placed position, and because of his knowledge of the NIN's (Northeast Intelligence Network) position as pro-Israel and the way it valued the relationship between Israel and America. Another reason, he said, was his own perception of the Biblical aspect of this scenario developing. The intelligence officer explained that the turnover of American policy towards Israel could occur through a manner that he dubbed 'malicious intelligence," which Haggman defined as information that is taken from its raw form. It then is morphed into something else to promote different interests, "where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? he said. A method ?that has been molded and massaged to advance the agendas of a select few,? he elaborated. In the case of the relationship between America and Israel, he noted, _malicious intelligence is being used_ (https://homelandsecurityus.com/?p=2545) to turn over the U.S. to a more anti-Israel policy and forge ahead with a more pro-PA or pro-Islamist one. Hagmann told Yonah in the radio interview, "A perfect example of this is when there was a shooting in Seattle a couple of years ago at a Jewish center. The police were ordered by the city officials and by the Federal Government, basically, to not protect the synagogues and other Jewish centers in Seattle, but to have protection details [instead] at the mosques in Seattle." U.S. administrations have apparently been following a policy of abandoning Israel for several years, according to Hagmann's report. His interview with the intelligence official cited "the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today [rocket and missile fire on Israel], it was done anyway," he stated.. In the report that Hagmann posted on the NIN (Northeast Intelligence Network) he cited one of his sources explaining, ?Now you can see where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? " the Obama administration is being purposely filled with people who are truly anti-Israel, either because of their own financial interests or a larger globalist agenda that does not include Israel, or for that matter, the United States as a sovereign nation. "Whatever the reason, the anti-Israel, pro-Islamist policy makers will be appointed or have already infiltrated nearly all levels of the U.S. government. These are the people who place anti-Semitic references in school textbooks, promote revisionist history regarding Islam, 9/11, and are the same people who allow or even promote the Islamic agendas in all aspects of Western society, especially the restrictions on speech against Islam. "With regard to the latter, note that the United Nations is quite involved in forcing the restriction of ?hate speech? and the implementation of global standards, some that have already been adapted by European nations,? noted the source. Hagmann reports that "the Middle East will be the site of 'the coming war,' and Israel will be at its epicenter. If we survive as a nation, the U.S. will not be on the side of righteousness in this war, instead turning our back to - or our guns against - our only true friend in the Middle East - Israel," he said. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - _sub.israelnn.com_ (http://sub.israelnn.com/) _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/e3d8b01b/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Thu Mar 19 08:28:38 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:28:38 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 51:9-16 References: <49C21819.845E9.60EE@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: I love this. Stephen >From Isaiah 51:9-16 Awaken! Awaken! Don strength, O arm of HASHEM! Awaken as in the days of old, as in previous generations. Are you not the One Who decimated the haughty, Who terrified the sea serpent? Are You not the One Who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep; Who made the depths of the sea a path for the redeemed ones to cross? Then the redeemed of HASHEM will return and come to Zion with glad song, with eternal gladness upon their head. They will attain joy and gladness; sadness and sighing will flee. [ I like that even the sighing will flee, you know how we all sigh about things now n then. ] I, only I, am He Who comforts you; who are you that you should be afraid of mortal humans and of men who will be made as grass? You have forgotten HASHEM, your Maker, Who spread out the heavens and set the foundations of the earth, and you are terrified continually, all day long, because of the oppressor's fury when he prepares to destroy -- but where is the oppressor's fury? The wanderer will soon be released, and will not die in the pit, nor will his bread be lacking. I am HASHEM, your God, Who stirs up the sea and its waves rage, Whose Name is HASHEM, Master of Legions. And I have placed My words in your mouth -- and with the shade of My hand have I covered you -- to implant the heavens and to set a foundation for the earth and to say unto Zion, "You are My people!" Is not it wonderful, that despite all the Irans, all the Russians, all the two-faced USA who gives military aid to Israel out of one hand, and 5 times as much military aid to Arab naitions out of the other ---- ISRAEL STANDS. From correim at gninc.ca Thu Mar 19 10:01:36 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:01:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The forgotten Jews. In-Reply-To: <49C1ED7B.1060002@westnet.com.au> References: <49C1ED7B.1060002@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49C25E50.7060703@gninc.ca> Shalom Joe Thank you for all that you share. I was watching that Dutch video of the Jewish people in Iran, while I was having my breakfast this morning. It was very interesting. Although I could not quite get the meaning of most of what was said, as well as the script, I could not read it fast enough till it was gone. But it resembled enough of our native Low German, ours is a kind of Netherland dialect. I think Yedish is easier for me to understand, since it is more High German, which we used to use for a written language, learned in school and officially being used in the past in sermons Sunday mornings. It is interesting though to see how these people do seem to be quite much at home in a land that we would have heard is so hostile to especially Israel. It does seem to me they have something in common with the Catholic nuns, that is in dress etc. And the images of what looked like the mother Mary, but since I could not get the message, I could have got that wrong. Mennonite women, (not men of course), wear head coverings too, that is, the Holdemans, and certain other denominations of Mennonites too. It looks so familiar though that a language so similar to ours, would be Jewish. Low German Christians are so turned off to Judaism. Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > /Shalom Chaverim, > > after Hanoch's recent post regarding the Jewish population in Germany > , spare a thought and a prayer for the forgotten Jews of Iran who are > in grave peril as the final countdown towards the end of days speeds > towards the final crescendo. > > There are over 25,000 Jews still living in Iran. > Pray that HaShem's mercy protects them and enables them to make a > quick escape. > /http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_5360000/newsid_5369400/bb_wm_5369420.stm > > /For those of you who can speak Dutch ,this is also a very interesting > documentary on the Jews of Iran. > For those of you who cannot, you may still find it to be fascinating > as you will see the culture of a people that dates back to the time of > Mordechai and Esther. > This was sent by Heidi's step uncle, Ben Meyer in Rotterdam. > /http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nikmedia/archief/bb.20060108.asf > > /This is possibly the most dangerous place on Earth , second to Israel > for the Jewish community. > But then again Israel might end up being the safest and only place for > the Jews . > > May HaShem's light shine through His people on a sick, dying and dark > world. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/c0ae5354/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:02:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: <855590370903191302o1077ea4bh44161819330698f1@mail.gmail.com> Shalom L'Kulam, This is a fascinating situation - these individuals are NOT Jews, and have never claimed to be (actually, they claimed that they [they're from the US] are the TRUE tribe of Judah, not the 'white' Jews). Israel didn't kick them out because of the potential bad press (dragging blacks in robes out of their homes..). But here is what I want you to keep in mind reading this - *they stayed in Israel, created 'facts on the ground,' did not seek publicity for themselves OR TRY TO CONVERT others to their beliefs. And now, the first one is an actual Israeli citizen. * ** * I think that there are some real precedents for some Ephramites....just thoughts rattling around in my head.....* * Hanoch* Once Reviled, Black Hebrews Now F?ted African-American Group in Dimona Faced Down IDF in ?86, Now Celebrates First Member To Become Israeli Citizen GETTY IMAGES *Acceptence:* Israeli President Shimon Peres (center) holds hands with Black Hebrews leader Ben Ammi Ben-Israel (in red) at an event at the group?s Village of Peace in Dimona, where Peres celebrated his 85th birthday in August. By Andrew Esensten Published March 18, 2009, issue of March 27, 2009. *FORWARD* Elyahkeem Ben Yehuda could have become another statistic, growing up poor, black and fatherless on the west side of Chicago during the 1950s. But he never had a run-in with the law, nor did he see the inside of a jail cell, until he moved to Israel to join the African Hebrew Israelite community. ?I had to come to Israel to get my first experience in jail,? he said. ?But in those days, that was like a badge of honor, to be arrested for God and His people.? Last month, the 62-year-old Ben Yehuda ? father of 10 children and husband of 3 women ? became the first member of his community to gain full Israeli citizenship. Looking back on the hurdles he overcame since his 1971 arrival, Ben Yehuda mused, ?I can only describe this journey in relationship to my forefathers,? referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. ?They were able to endure. As long as we put fulfilling the will of the God of Israel first, there?s no challenge that we can?t overcome.? ANDREW ESENSTEN *For the land:* Two scenes from the Dance for the Land celebration, held by the Black Hebrew community in Dimona, Israel. The African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem ? or Black Hebrews, as they are more commonly known (though not all members are black) ? have sparred with the Israeli government for decades over their right to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. It is a right they still do not have. But presaging Ben Yehuda?s achievement last month, Israel granted the community permanent residency status in 2003, offering its 3,000 members a five-year path to apply for citizenship on an individual basis. It?s a process that many others are now undertaking. The Promised Land took many decades before putting out a welcome mat for the Black Hebrews. Asked by a newspaper reporter in 1980 what would happen if the Israeli government attempted to expel the entire community, as was widely expected then, the group?s leader, Ben Ammi Ben-Israel, replied: ?If they send soldiers and the police, they could probably succeed in getting two-thirds of us out. The other third they would have to kill.? For much of its 40-year existence in Israel, the Hebrew community has been the subject of intense and hostile scrutiny, owed, in part, to its reputation as a cult, its belligerent attitude toward outsiders and its secrecy about the sometimes illegal methods used to bring its members to Israel. As recently as 2005, The Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli police and the National Insurance Institute, in coordination with the FBI, were probing allegations of widespread insurance fraud within the community. The investigation ultimately led nowhere. At the time, Israeli officials blamed the closed nature of the community for hindering their investigation, while community leaders dismissed the charges as spurious and the investigation as racially motivated. Yet, in contrast to the Post?s depiction of a shadowy sect, the community is more open today than it ever has been, and it actively works to promote awareness about its unique culture. [The author was hosted inside the Black Hebrews? village from September 2007 to November 2008 while conducting research on an academic fellowship.] Indeed, the community has gone from the fringes of Israeli society to the mainstream, with its gospel choir performing for heads of state, and its youth enlisting at age 18 in the Israel Defense Forces. Several Black Hebrews participated in IDF ground operations in Gaza during the most recent war against Hamas, according to community spokeswoman Yafah Baht Gavriel. The past year has brought even greater acceptance for the Black Hebrews. In August 2008, Israel?s president, Shimon Peres, celebrated his 85th birthday in Dimona, where he visited their settlement, the Village of Peace, and was effusive in his praise of Ben Ammi and his people. ?Your community is beloved in Israel,? Peres said. ?You give the country happiness and song and hope for a better world.? He assured the Black Hebrews that Israel does not tolerate discrimination, and he pledged to facilitate their transition to citizenship. ?Our hands are in yours; your destiny must be our destiny,? Peres said. The founders of the Hebrew community are blacks, primarily from Chicago, who identify themselves as descendants of the Tribe of Judah and view Israel as their ancestral homeland. The Chief Rabbinate has never accepted their claim to Judaism ? and they have always refused to convert as a group ? but their relationship with the Israeli government has evolved over the past 40 years. The Hebrew community was born of the black-separatist movement of the early 20th century, which rejected the possibility that African Americans could live as equals with white people in the United States. Even today, many Hebrews believe there is no future for blacks in America, although they operate missions in such places as Atlanta and Washington. Ben Ammi Ben-Israel ? born Ben Carter ? is a former metallurgist from Chicago who says that the angel Gabriel appeared to him in a vision in 1966 and instructed him to deliver his people to the Promised Land from America. He is 69 years old and lives in Dimona with his four wives. The first members arrived in Israel in 1969 via Liberia, where they had spent two-and-a-half years cleansing themselves of spiritual impurities in preparation for what they refer to as their prophetic return to Israel to establish the ?Kingdom of God.? Officials at what was then Lod Airport, however, did not know what to do with them when they stepped off the plane. The government decided to send the initial group of 39 Black Hebrews to the impoverished Negev town of Dimona, expecting them to leave after their first taste of desert life. Despite their isolation and limited resources, the Black Hebrews thrived by drawing closer to one another and to Yah, the God of Israel, members of the community said. Newer members seeking to join the community after 1969 were turned around at the border and told that their status as Jews was under debate. So they found other ways of entering the country ? in one case, posing as a Christian tour group and sneaking down to Dimona in the middle of the night. The 1970s and ?80s were characterized by mass arrests and deportations on one side, and by accusations of racism and denials of the legitimacy of the Israeli government on the other. Israeli authorities threw Ben Yehuda and other community members in prison in 1973 when they tried to renounce their American citizenship at the American embassy in Tel Aviv. The Black Hebrews had hoped to avoid deportation for overstaying their temporary visas by becoming stateless, but many, including Ben Yehuda, were sent back to America. The government did, in fact, send soldiers to Dimona on April 22, 1986. During what has become known in Black Hebrew lore as the Day of the Show of Strength, community members faced down dozens of Israeli troops who surrounded their village. Dressed in white robes, the Black Hebrews had threatened to march to Jerusalem to attract publicity for their plight. The army eventually backed down, and the planned march to Jerusalem was called off. Relations began to improve steadily, beginning in 1990, when the government allowed community members to receive work permits. According to Ben Ammi, the racially charged environment in America that the Black Hebrews left behind prevented them from having an uncomplicated relationship with the Israelis. ?We arrived here with a chip on our shoulder,? he admitted. ?We weren?t ready for any Europeans to tell us who we were.? The Black Hebrews strongly reject such labels as ?sect? and ?cult,? and insist that they are not a religious group of any kind, but rather a community of truth seekers who live according to God?s laws, as recorded in the Torah. Their lifestyle incorporates Baptist worship practices and elements of traditional African culture. The government appears to ignore their practice of polygamy, which is illegal in Israel. They fast on the Sabbath and are strict vegans. They also manufacture kosher vegan foods at their Dimona factory. Like Karaite Jews, the Black Hebrews observe biblically mandated holy days but not those instituted by rabbinical decree, such as Hanukkah and Purim. They also celebrate their own holidays, including an annual spring festival called New World Kingdom Passover. Members from all over the world converge on Dimona for this two-day commemoration of the anniversary of the 1967 ?exodus? from America, which they call the ?Land of the Great Captivity.? This Hebrew community is perhaps best known outside Israel for the accomplishments of its performing artists ? including Eddie Butler, who represented Israel in the international singing competition Eurovision in 1999 and 2006 ? and for hosting such popular musicians as Stevie Wonder and Whitney Houston. With former husband Bobby Brown, Houston visited the Village of Peace in 2003. Still, it is a visit by Louis Farrakhan in 1975 and his public embrace of Ben Ammi in 2000 that leave many Jews in Israel and America still suspicious of the community. Farrakhan, head of the black nationalist Nation of Islam, is widely regarded by Jews and many others as antisemitic, because of speeches in which he has condemned, disparaged and threatened Jews as a people. During his address at the October 2000 Million Family March in Washington, Farrakhan invited Ben Ammi to the podium and embraced him rhetorically as his ?brother.? In a statement to the Forward, Ben Ammi described the relationship between the two groups as ?cordial.? ?Our contacts remain through the African-American social arena, where both communities are almost always represented,? he explained. ?During those gatherings, the subject matter has to do with issues of concern for the African-American community at large. Beyond that, there is an understanding that we voice the positions of the State of Israel and the NOI (Nation of Islam) the positions of the Arab world.? Another source of concern has been the alleged association of the Black Hebrew community with the more radical and often brazenly racist and violent Hebrew Israelite camps in the United States, including the Nation of Yahweh. There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, and Ben Ammi has long denied any relationship with such groups. Over time, Ben Ammi said, the community leadership has learned to tone down its own anti-white and anti-Zionist rhetoric and to preach a more inclusive message. The group still hews to a theology that asserts the status of African Americans as the authentic descendants of the original Israelites, who they argue were dark-skinned. But, Ben Ammi said, ?We?ve matured. The message has matured. And I feel that the people in the land, with the visit of President Peres, have matured also.? Their presence in Israel no longer contested, the Black Hebrews have established an urban kibbutz called Shomrey Ha?Shalom (Guardians of Peace) and secured a plot of land in the Mamshit area of Dimona for a new settlement that can better accommodate their rapidly growing community. A new gym will be built this year, next to their school, Beit Sefer Achvah (the Brotherhood School), with money from the national lottery. Meir Cohen, mayor of Dimona, said that this group of people makes a valuable contribution to the cultural life of the city and country. Asked if he believed they were from the Tribe of Judah, he replied: ?There is no doubt that the descendants of the Tribe of Judah and the other tribes traveled all over the world. You just have to discover them, or they have to discover themselves.? *Andrew Esensten received a fellowship from Harvard University in 2007 to study the Hebrew community. He lived inside their village in Dimona from September 2007 to November 2008 and is currently writing a book about them.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/f426baca/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:27:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:27:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] You've got to know what others are discussing Message-ID: <855590370903191327veb2a724we7b7ea6fc819d384@mail.gmail.com> Shalom L'Kulam, A *DISCLAIMER:* I do NOT support, or agree with giving away ANY part of Eretz Yisrael at all; ever - for ANY reason. But I wanted to share this article, because I believe this proposal, or variations of it, are likely to keep coming up. It's a "head's up" - NOT my view. *Hanoch* ** Avigdor Lieberman?s Bright Idea Opinion By Sergio DellaPergola Published March 18, 2009, issue of March 27, 2009 . Avigdor Lieberman?s electoral success has been a cause of alarm in Israel and abroad. Lieberman?s critics are justifiably concerned by his often inflammatory rhetoric, as well as his demand that the right to vote be made contingent upon citizens taking a loyalty oath ? a policy totally unacceptable in a democratic society. One of Lieberman?s more controversial proposals is his call to surrender Israeli Arab population centers to eventual Palestinian sovereignty as part of a land swap. Within the framework of an eventual Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank, he advocates annexing major Israeli settlement blocs and in exchange handing over to the Palestinians Israel?s Triangle region, an almost entirely Arab-populated strip of land just inside the 1967 Green Line, extending from the city of Umm al-Fahm in the north down to Kafr Qassem in the south. Many view this proposal as part and parcel of what they see as Lieberman?s xenophobic agenda. But his critics should not be so quick to write off this idea simply because of the political leanings of its most prominent supporter. Such a land swap may even be necessary to ensure Israel?s long-term political and demographic stability. While Lieberman is often labeled a far-rightist, the notion of swapping sovereignty over the Triangle is not a far-right idea. On the left, former deputy defense minister Ephraim Sneh, a committed dove and until recently a prominent member of the Labor Party, has been an advocate of this very notion. And in 2002 Ehud Barak said that ?such an exchange makes demographic sense and is not inconceivable? (though he cautioned that it ?could only be done by agreement?). Indeed, underlying this idea is a principle that has long been championed by the left and is today supported by a majority of Israelis: the concept of two states for two peoples. *Related Articles* - Washington Braces To Greet Lieberman as Foreign Minister - Jewish Leaders Largely Silent on Lieberman?s Role In Government - Confronting Our Demagogue Most Israelis know that Israel must withdraw from the West Bank if it is to remain both a Jewish and a democratic state. But even if Israel does so, the underlying demographic dynamic will continue to yield a constant erosion of Israel?s Jewish majority. In 2008, Arabs comprised 21% of the inhabitants of Israel (including East Jerusalem but not West Bank Palestinians). Because of higher Arab fertility rates, however, 25% of all births in Israel are to Arab families. Moreover, because of a much younger age composition, Arabs account for only 10% of all deaths in Israel. Thus, in 2008, excluding international migration, 30% of Israel?s natural population increase was in the Arab sector. The present trend generates a steady growth of the Arab share of Israel?s population. Israel?s Arab population is expected to reach 23% in 2020 and 27% in 2050, while the share of Arabs among children younger than 15 will likely be 30% by 2020. These numbers point toward a bi-national state, not to the Jewish state that most Israelis prefer. With two small adjustments to the Green Line, however, this demographic outlook can be radically transformed. The Triangle region has an Arab population of some 250,000; another 250,000 Arabs reside in East Jerusalem. Together these two areas cover about 3% of Israel?s territory but are home to more than a third of Israel?s 1.4 million Arabs. By redrawing the frontier between Israel and the West Bank to place the Triangle and East Jerusalem?s Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian control, the Jewish proportion of the Israeli population would increase from the current 79% to 87%. Under this scenario, the Jewish share of the population would remain well above 80% into the 2030s and beyond. Concern about Israel?s demographic composition would be postponed to a distant future, by which time the respective growth rates of the Jewish and Arab populations may well have converged. True, this proposal has not been greeted warmly by the Triangle?s Arab residents. Israeli Arabs know that becoming citizens of a Palestinian state would involve a trade-off: Gains in the realm of national identity would likely be accompanied by losses in the areas of civil liberties, democratic rights and standard of living. As a result, for many Arabs remaining Israeli citizens while fighting for a separate identity within Israel ? and, for some, demanding an alteration of the core identity of the Jewish state ? seems like a better option. But it is also a recipe for heightened tensions and ongoing strife within Israeli society. It is worth remembering that the text of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, adopted on November 29, 1947, called for the partition of British Mandate Palestine into an *Arab* state and a *Jewish* state ? not an *Israeli* state and a *Palestinian* state. This solution was intended to solve a complicated conflict by recognizing the relevance and legitimacy of two distinct identities. Division along ethno-religious lines, possibly followed by economic cooperation, was the right solution back in 1947, and it still might be the only viable one now. *Sergio DellaPergola holds the Shlomo Argov Chair on Israel-Diaspora Relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and is a senior fellow at the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute. The views expressed in this article are his own.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/cdc2f756/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 16:44:48 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: The so called "Black Hebrews" were a Christian group in Chicago back in the 60's that one day decided they were the real Israel and that all white, Asian, and other non black followers of Judaism usurped the land from their ancestors. I was amazed when Israel let them go ahead and move there years ago.Can you say cult? I knew you could. It's just to similar to the Mormon's calling themselves the tribe of Joseph and everyone else Gentiles and the days of British Israelism. What amazes me even more so is the growing number of Gentiles calling themselves the tribe of Ephraim, claiming Jews are Judah and they are the northern kingdom. Rockets 101 class says the 12 tribes are from the sons of Yaacov, none of which are Gentiles. The civil war Israel had that split it into two kingdoms did not suddenly turn the northern kingdom into people that were not members of the tribes after it ended. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 4:03:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom L'Kulam, This is a fascinating situation - these individuals are NOT Jews, and have never claimed to be (actually, they claimed that they [they're from the US] are the TRUE tribe of Judah, not the 'white' Jews). Israel didn't kick them out because of the potential bad press (dragging blacks in robes out of their homes..). But here is what I want you to keep in mind reading this - they stayed in Israel, created 'facts on the ground,' did not seek publicity for themselves OR TRY TO CONVERT others to their beliefs. And now, the first one is an actual Israeli citizen. I think that there are some real precedents for some Ephramites....just thoughts rattling around in my head..... Hanoch Once Reviled, Black Hebrews Now F?ted African-American Group in Dimona Faced Down IDF in ?86, Now Celebrates First Member To Become Israeli Citizen GETTY IMAGES Acceptence: Israeli President Shimon Peres (center) holds hands with Black Hebrews leader Ben Ammi Ben-Israel (in red) at an event at the group?s Village of Peace in Dimona, where Peres celebrated his 85th birthday in August. By Andrew Esensten Published March 18, 2009, issue of _March 27, 2009_ (http://www.forward.com/issues/2009-03-27/) . FORWARD Elyahkeem Ben Yehuda could have become another statistic, growing up poor, black and fatherless on the west side of Chicago during the 1950s. But he never had a run-in with the law, nor did he see the inside of a jail cell, until he moved to Israel to join the African Hebrew Israelite community. ?I had to come to Israel to get my first experience in jail,? he said. ?But in those days, that was like a badge of honor, to be arrested for God and His people.? Last month, the 62-year-old Ben Yehuda ? father of 10 children and husband of 3 women ? became the first member of his community to gain full Israeli citizenship. Looking back on the hurdles he overcame since his 1971 arrival, Ben Yehuda mused, ?I can only describe this journey in relationship to my forefathers,? referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. ?They were able to endure. As long as we put fulfilling the will of the God of Israel first, there?s no challenge that we can?t overcome.? ANDREW ESENSTEN For the land: Two scenes from the Dance for the Land celebration, held by the Black Hebrew community in Dimona, Israel. The African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem ? or Black Hebrews, as they are more commonly known (though not all members are black) ? have sparred with the Israeli government for decades over their right to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. It is a right they still do not have. But presaging Ben Yehuda?s achievement last month, Israel granted the community permanent residency status in 2003, offering its 3,000 members a five-year path to apply for citizenship on an individual basis. It?s a process that many others are now undertaking. The Promised Land took many decades before putting out a welcome mat for the Black Hebrews. Asked by a newspaper reporter in 1980 what would happen if the Israeli government attempted to expel the entire community, as was widely expected then, the group?s leader, Ben Ammi Ben-Israel, replied: ?If they send soldiers and the police, they could probably succeed in getting two-thirds of us out. The other third they would have to kill.? For much of its 40-year existence in Israel, the Hebrew community has been the subject of intense and hostile scrutiny, owed, in part, to its reputation as a cult, its belligerent attitude toward outsiders and its secrecy about the sometimes illegal methods used to bring its members to Israel. As recently as 2005, The Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli police and the National Insurance Institute, in coordination with the FBI, were probing allegations of widespread insurance fraud within the community. The investigation ultimately led nowhere. At the time, Israeli officials blamed the closed nature of the community for hindering their investigation, while community leaders dismissed the charges as spurious and the investigation as racially motivated. Yet, in contrast to the Post?s depiction of a shadowy sect, the community is more open today than it ever has been, and it actively works to promote awareness about its unique culture. [The author was hosted inside the Black Hebrews? village from September 2007 to November 2008 while conducting research on an academic fellowship.] Indeed, the community has gone from the fringes of Israeli society to the mainstream, with its gospel choir performing for heads of state, and its youth enlisting at age 18 in the Israel Defense Forces. Several Black Hebrews participated in IDF ground operations in Gaza during the most recent war against Hamas, according to community spokeswoman Yafah Baht Gavriel. The past year has brought even greater acceptance for the Black Hebrews. In August 2008, Israel?s president, Shimon Peres, celebrated his 85th birthday in Dimona, where he visited their settlement, the Village of Peace, and was effusive in his praise of Ben Ammi and his people. ?Your community is beloved in Israel,? Peres said. ?You give the country happiness and song and hope for a better world.? He assured the Black Hebrews that Israel does not tolerate discrimination, and he pledged to facilitate their transition to citizenship. ?Our hands are in yours; your destiny must be our destiny,? Peres said. The founders of the Hebrew community are blacks, primarily from Chicago, who identify themselves as descendants of the Tribe of Judah and view Israel as their ancestral homeland. The Chief Rabbinate has never accepted their claim to Judaism ? and they have always refused to convert as a group ? but their relationship with the Israeli government has evolved over the past 40 years. The Hebrew community was born of the black-separatist movement of the early 20th century, which rejected the possibility that African Americans could live as equals with white people in the United States. Even today, many Hebrews believe there is no future for blacks in America, although they operate missions in such places as Atlanta and Washington. Ben Ammi Ben-Israel ? born Ben Carter ? is a former metallurgist from Chicago who says that the angel Gabriel appeared to him in a vision in 1966 and instructed him to deliver his people to the Promised Land from America. He is 69 years old and lives in Dimona with his four wives. The first members arrived in Israel in 1969 via Liberia, where they had spent two-and-a-half years cleansing themselves of spiritual impurities in preparation for what they refer to as their prophetic return to Israel to establish the ?Kingdom of God.? Officials at what was then Lod Airport, however, did not know what to do with them when they stepped off the plane. The government decided to send the initial group of 39 Black Hebrews to the impoverished Negev town of Dimona, expecting them to leave after their first taste of desert life. Despite their isolation and limited resources, the Black Hebrews thrived by drawing closer to one another and to Yah, the God of Israel, members of the community said. Newer members seeking to join the community after 1969 were turned around at the border and told that their status as Jews was under debate. So they found other ways of entering the country ? in one case, posing as a Christian tour group and sneaking down to Dimona in the middle of the night. The 1970s and ?80s were characterized by mass arrests and deportations on one side, and by accusations of racism and denials of the legitimacy of the Israeli government on the other. Israeli authorities threw Ben Yehuda and other community members in prison in 1973 when they tried to renounce their American citizenship at the American embassy in Tel Aviv. The Black Hebrews had hoped to avoid deportation for overstaying their temporary visas by becoming stateless, but many, including Ben Yehuda, were sent back to America. The government did, in fact, send soldiers to Dimona on April 22, 1986. During what has become known in Black Hebrew lore as the Day of the Show of Strength, community members faced down dozens of Israeli troops who surrounded their village. Dressed in white robes, the Black Hebrews had threatened to march to Jerusalem to attract publicity for their plight. The army eventually backed down, and the planned march to Jerusalem was called off. Relations began to improve steadily, beginning in 1990, when the government allowed community members to receive work permits. According to Ben Ammi, the racially charged environment in America that the Black Hebrews left behind prevented them from having an uncomplicated relationship with the Israelis. ?We arrived here with a chip on our shoulder,? he admitted. ?We weren?t ready for any Europeans to tell us who we were.? The Black Hebrews strongly reject such labels as ?sect? and ?cult,? and insist that they are not a religious group of any kind, but rather a community of truth seekers who live according to God?s laws, as recorded in the Torah. Their lifestyle incorporates Baptist worship practices and elements of traditional African culture. The government appears to ignore their practice of polygamy, which is illegal in Israel. They fast on the Sabbath and are strict vegans. They also manufacture kosher vegan foods at their Dimona factory. Like Karaite Jews, the Black Hebrews observe biblically mandated holy days but not those instituted by rabbinical decree, such as Hanukkah and Purim. They also celebrate their own holidays, including an annual spring festival called New World Kingdom Passover. Members from all over the world converge on Dimona for this two-day commemoration of the anniversary of the 1967 ?exodus? from America, which they call the ?Land of the Great Captivity.? This Hebrew community is perhaps best known outside Israel for the accomplishments of its performing artists ? including Eddie Butler, who represented Israel in the international singing competition Eurovision in 1999 and 2006 ? and for hosting such popular musicians as Stevie Wonder and Whitney Houston. With former husband Bobby Brown, Houston visited the Village of Peace in 2003. Still, it is a visit by Louis Farrakhan in 1975 and his public embrace of Ben Ammi in 2000 that leave many Jews in Israel and America still suspicious of the community. Farrakhan, head of the black nationalist Nation of Islam, is widely regarded by Jews and many others as antisemitic, because of speeches in which he has condemned, disparaged and threatened Jews as a people. During his address at the October 2000 Million Family March in Washington, Farrakhan invited Ben Ammi to the podium and embraced him rhetorically as his ? brother.? In a statement to the Forward, Ben Ammi described the relationship between the two groups as ?cordial.? ?Our contacts remain through the African-American social arena, where both communities are almost always represented,? he explained. ?During those gatherings, the subject matter has to do with issues of concern for the African-American community at large. Beyond that, there is an understanding that we voice the positions of the State of Israel and the NOI (Nation of Islam) the positions of the Arab world.? Another source of concern has been the alleged association of the Black Hebrew community with the more radical and often brazenly racist and violent Hebrew Israelite camps in the United States, including the Nation of Yahweh. There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, and Ben Ammi has long denied any relationship with such groups. Over time, Ben Ammi said, the community leadership has learned to tone down its own anti-white and anti-Zionist rhetoric and to preach a more inclusive message. The group still hews to a theology that asserts the status of African Americans as the authentic descendants of the original Israelites, who they argue were dark-skinned. But, Ben Ammi said, ?We?ve matured. The message has matured. And I feel that the people in the land, with the visit of President Peres, have matured also.? Their presence in Israel no longer contested, the Black Hebrews have established an urban kibbutz called Shomrey Ha?Shalom (Guardians of Peace) and secured a plot of land in the Mamshit area of Dimona for a new settlement that can better accommodate their rapidly growing community. A new gym will be built this year, next to their school, Beit Sefer Achvah (the Brotherhood School), with money from the national lottery. Meir Cohen, mayor of Dimona, said that this group of people makes a valuable contribution to the cultural life of the city and country. Asked if he believed they were from the Tribe of Judah, he replied: ?There is no doubt that the descendants of the Tribe of Judah and the other tribes traveled all over the world. You just have to discover them, or they have to discover themselves.? Andrew Esensten received a fellowship from Harvard University in 2007 to study the Hebrew community. He lived inside their village in Dimona from September 2007 to November 2008 and is currently writing a book about them. _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/dd412ff7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 16:57:13 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:57:13 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370903191457u96c116cld999b9244f704a09@mail.gmail.com> The Navi Hoshea deals with the last point pretty clearly... * Hanoch * On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:44 PM, wrote: > The so called "Black Hebrews" were a Christian group in Chicago back in > the 60's that one day decided they were the real Israel and that all white, > Asian, and other non black followers of Judaism usurped the land from their > ancestors. I was amazed when Israel let them go ahead and move there years > ago.Can you say cult? I knew you could. It's just to similar to the Mormon's > calling themselves the tribe of Joseph and everyone else Gentiles and the > days of British Israelism. > > What amazes me even more so is the growing number of Gentiles calling > themselves the tribe of Ephraim, claiming Jews are Judah and they are the > northern kingdom. Rockets 101 class says the 12 tribes are from the sons of > Yaacov, none of which are Gentiles. The civil war Israel had that split it > into two kingdoms did not suddenly turn the northern kingdom into people > that were not members of the tribes after it ended. > > Shalom,Hez > > ========Original Message======== Subj: *[Dialogue] A precedent for > Ephramite Aliyah?* Date: 3/19/2009 4:03:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: youngbarzel at gmail.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > Shalom L'Kulam, > > This is a fascinating situation - these individuals are NOT Jews, and > have never claimed to be (actually, they claimed that they [they're from the > US] are the TRUE tribe of Judah, not the 'white' Jews). Israel didn't kick > them out because of the potential bad press (dragging blacks in robes out > of their homes..). But here is what I want you to keep in mind reading this > - *they stayed in Israel, created 'facts on the ground,' did not seek > publicity for themselves OR TRY TO CONVERT others to their beliefs. And > now, the first one is an actual Israeli citizen. * > ** > * I think that there are some real precedents for some > Ephramites....just thoughts rattling around in my head.....* > * Hanoch* > > Once Reviled, Black Hebrews Now F?ted African-American Group in Dimona > Faced Down IDF in ?86, Now Celebrates First Member To Become Israeli Citizen GETTY > IMAGES > *Acceptence:* Israeli President Shimon Peres (center) holds hands with > Black Hebrews leader Ben Ammi Ben-Israel (in red) at an event at the group?s > Village of Peace in Dimona, where Peres celebrated his 85th birthday in > August. > > By Andrew Esensten Published March 18, 2009, issue of March 27, 2009. > *FORWARD* > > Elyahkeem Ben Yehuda could have become another statistic, growing up poor, > black and fatherless on the west side of Chicago during the 1950s. > > But he never had a run-in with the law, nor did he see the inside of a jail > cell, until he moved to Israel to join the African Hebrew Israelite > community. ?I had to come to Israel to get my first experience in jail,? he > said. ?But in those days, that was like a badge of honor, to be arrested for > God and His people.? > > Last month, the 62-year-old Ben Yehuda ? father of 10 children and husband > of 3 women ? became the first member of his community to gain full Israeli > citizenship. Looking back on the hurdles he overcame since his 1971 arrival, > Ben Yehuda mused, ?I can only describe this journey in relationship to my > forefathers,? referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. ?They were able to > endure. As long as we put fulfilling the will of the God of Israel first, > there?s no challenge that we can?t overcome.? > ANDREW ESENSTEN > *For the land:* Two scenes from the Dance for the Land celebration, held > by the Black Hebrew community in Dimona, Israel. > > The African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem ? or Black Hebrews, as they are > more commonly known (though not all members are black) ? have sparred with > the Israeli government for decades over their right to immigrate to Israel > under the Law of Return. It is a right they still do not have. But presaging > Ben Yehuda?s achievement last month, Israel granted the community permanent > residency status in 2003, offering its 3,000 members a five-year path to > apply for citizenship on an individual basis. It?s a process that many > others are now undertaking. > > The Promised Land took many decades before putting out a welcome mat for > the Black Hebrews. Asked by a newspaper reporter in 1980 what would happen > if the Israeli government attempted to expel the entire community, as was > widely expected then, the group?s leader, Ben Ammi Ben-Israel, replied: ?If > they send soldiers and the police, they could probably succeed in getting > two-thirds of us out. The other third they would have to kill.? > > For much of its 40-year existence in Israel, the Hebrew community has been > the subject of intense and hostile scrutiny, owed, in part, to its > reputation as a cult, its belligerent attitude toward outsiders and its > secrecy about the sometimes illegal methods used to bring its members to > Israel. > > As recently as 2005, The Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli police > and the National Insurance Institute, in coordination with the FBI, were > probing allegations of widespread insurance fraud within the community. The > investigation ultimately led nowhere. At the time, Israeli officials blamed > the closed nature of the community for hindering their investigation, while > community leaders dismissed the charges as spurious and the investigation as > racially motivated. > > Yet, in contrast to the Post?s depiction of a shadowy sect, the community > is more open today than it ever has been, and it actively works to promote > awareness about its unique culture. [The author was hosted inside the Black > Hebrews? village from September 2007 to November 2008 while conducting > research on an academic fellowship.] > > Indeed, the community has gone from the fringes of Israeli society to the > mainstream, with its gospel choir performing for heads of state, and its > youth enlisting at age 18 in the Israel Defense Forces. Several Black > Hebrews participated in IDF ground operations in Gaza during the most recent > war against Hamas, according to community spokeswoman Yafah Baht Gavriel. > > The past year has brought even greater acceptance for the Black Hebrews. In > August 2008, Israel?s president, Shimon Peres, celebrated his 85th birthday > in Dimona, where he visited their settlement, the Village of Peace, and was > effusive in his praise of Ben Ammi and his people. ?Your community is > beloved in Israel,? Peres said. ?You give the country happiness and song and > hope for a better world.? He assured the Black Hebrews that Israel does not > tolerate discrimination, and he pledged to facilitate their transition to > citizenship. ?Our hands are in yours; your destiny must be our destiny,? > Peres said. > > The founders of the Hebrew community are blacks, primarily from Chicago, > who identify themselves as descendants of the Tribe of Judah and view Israel > as their ancestral homeland. The Chief Rabbinate has never accepted their > claim to Judaism ? and they have always refused to convert as a group ? but > their relationship with the Israeli government has evolved over the past 40 > years. > > The Hebrew community was born of the black-separatist movement of the early > 20th century, which rejected the possibility that African Americans could > live as equals with white people in the United States. Even today, many > Hebrews believe there is no future for blacks in America, although they > operate missions in such places as Atlanta and Washington. > > Ben Ammi Ben-Israel ? born Ben Carter ? is a former metallurgist from > Chicago who says that the angel Gabriel appeared to him in a vision in 1966 > and instructed him to deliver his people to the Promised Land from America. > He is 69 years old and lives in Dimona with his four wives. > > The first members arrived in Israel in 1969 via Liberia, where they had > spent two-and-a-half years cleansing themselves of spiritual impurities in > preparation for what they refer to as their prophetic return to Israel to > establish the ?Kingdom of God.? Officials at what was then Lod Airport, > however, did not know what to do with them when they stepped off the plane. > > The government decided to send the initial group of 39 Black Hebrews to the > impoverished Negev town of Dimona, expecting them to leave after their first > taste of desert life. Despite their isolation and limited resources, the > Black Hebrews thrived by drawing closer to one another and to Yah, the God > of Israel, members of the community said. > > Newer members seeking to join the community after 1969 were turned around > at the border and told that their status as Jews was under debate. So they > found other ways of entering the country ? in one case, posing as a > Christian tour group and sneaking down to Dimona in the middle of the night. > > The 1970s and ?80s were characterized by mass arrests and deportations on > one side, and by accusations of racism and denials of the legitimacy of the > Israeli government on the other. Israeli authorities threw Ben Yehuda and > other community members in prison in 1973 when they tried to renounce their > American citizenship at the American embassy in Tel Aviv. The Black Hebrews > had hoped to avoid deportation for overstaying their temporary visas by > becoming stateless, but many, including Ben Yehuda, were sent back to > America. > > The government did, in fact, send soldiers to Dimona on April 22, 1986. > During what has become known in Black Hebrew lore as the Day of the Show of > Strength, community members faced down dozens of Israeli troops who > surrounded their village. Dressed in white robes, the Black Hebrews had > threatened to march to Jerusalem to attract publicity for their plight. The > army eventually backed down, and the planned march to Jerusalem was called > off. > > Relations began to improve steadily, beginning in 1990, when the government > allowed community members to receive work permits. > > According to Ben Ammi, the racially charged environment in America that the > Black Hebrews left behind prevented them from having an uncomplicated > relationship with the Israelis. ?We arrived here with a chip on our > shoulder,? he admitted. ?We weren?t ready for any Europeans to tell us who > we were.? > > The Black Hebrews strongly reject such labels as ?sect? and ?cult,? and > insist that they are not a religious group of any kind, but rather a > community of truth seekers who live according to God?s laws, as recorded in > the Torah. Their lifestyle incorporates Baptist worship practices and > elements of traditional African culture. The government appears to ignore > their practice of polygamy, which is illegal in Israel. They fast on the > Sabbath and are strict vegans. They also manufacture kosher vegan foods at > their Dimona factory. > > Like Karaite Jews, the Black Hebrews observe biblically mandated holy days > but not those instituted by rabbinical decree, such as Hanukkah and Purim. > They also celebrate their own holidays, including an annual spring festival > called New World Kingdom Passover. Members from all over the world converge > on Dimona for this two-day commemoration of the anniversary of the 1967 > ?exodus? from America, which they call the ?Land of the Great Captivity.? > > This Hebrew community is perhaps best known outside Israel for the > accomplishments of its performing artists ? including Eddie Butler, who > represented Israel in the international singing competition Eurovision in > 1999 and 2006 ? and for hosting such popular musicians as Stevie Wonder and > Whitney Houston. With former husband Bobby Brown, Houston visited the > Village of Peace in 2003. > > Still, it is a visit by Louis Farrakhan in 1975 and his public embrace of > Ben Ammi in 2000 that leave many Jews in Israel and America still suspicious > of the community. Farrakhan, head of the black nationalist Nation of Islam, > is widely regarded by Jews and many others as antisemitic, because of > speeches in which he has condemned, disparaged and threatened Jews as a > people. > > During his address at the October 2000 Million Family March in Washington, > Farrakhan invited Ben Ammi to the podium and embraced him rhetorically as > his ?brother.? > > In a statement to the Forward, Ben Ammi described the relationship between > the two groups as ?cordial.? > > ?Our contacts remain through the African-American social arena, where both > communities are almost always represented,? he explained. ?During those > gatherings, the subject matter has to do with issues of concern for the > African-American community at large. Beyond that, there is an understanding > that we voice the positions of the State of Israel and the NOI (Nation of > Islam) the positions of the Arab world.? > > Another source of concern has been the alleged association of the Black > Hebrew community with the more radical and often brazenly racist and violent > Hebrew Israelite camps in the United States, including the Nation of Yahweh. > There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, and Ben Ammi has long > denied any relationship with such groups. > > Over time, Ben Ammi said, the community leadership has learned to tone down > its own anti-white and anti-Zionist rhetoric and to preach a more inclusive > message. The group still hews to a theology that asserts the status of > African Americans as the authentic descendants of the original Israelites, > who they argue were dark-skinned. But, Ben Ammi said, ?We?ve matured. The > message has matured. And I feel that the people in the land, with the visit > of President Peres, have matured also.? > > Their presence in Israel no longer contested, the Black Hebrews have > established an urban kibbutz called Shomrey Ha?Shalom (Guardians of Peace) > and secured a plot of land in the Mamshit area of Dimona for a new > settlement that can better accommodate their rapidly growing community. A > new gym will be built this year, next to their school, Beit Sefer Achvah > (the Brotherhood School), with money from the national lottery. > > Meir Cohen, mayor of Dimona, said that this group of people makes a > valuable contribution to the cultural life of the city and country. Asked if > he believed they were from the Tribe of Judah, he replied: ?There is no > doubt that the descendants of the Tribe of Judah and the other tribes > traveled all over the world. You just have to discover them, or they have to > discover themselves.? > > *Andrew Esensten received a fellowship from Harvard University in 2007 to > study the Hebrew community. He lived inside their village in Dimona from > September 2007 to November 2008 and is currently writing a book about them. > * > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/64f44a7e/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 17:05:14 2009 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (ram1500_man at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:05:14 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <251132750-1237500268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761097174-@bxe1244.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 17:19:04 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:19:04 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: <251132750-1237500268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761097174-@bxe1244.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <251132750-1237500268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761097174-@bxe1244.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <855590370903191519i780275f0y74077679671ef07e@mail.gmail.com> Paul, Generally, I think you stated what many people on this list have known for over 17 years, in some cases - that they are being called to HaShem (G-d). That although you can agree, or disagree with the term "Ephramite" - that an amazing phenomenon has been occurring. And I LOVE the idea of us working together, however, when you use terms like: *"Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is.." *well, that is something that I will not tolerate from anyone, anytime. Perhaps you don't know the historical connotations that expression conjures up for us, Jews? All false modesty aside, I think that I have personally been in the forefront of attempting dialogue with Ephramites (particularly "Messianic" Ephramites). But you can't have dialogue when you have no respect for, or willingness to allow anyone to have a different belief then yours. Having said that, if someone were to come up to me and say that *"...the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is..." I would spit in his face. * ** * *You CANNOT have dialogue without mutual "respect" - and there is no way to compromise on that point.... * Hanoch* On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:05 PM, wrote: > There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used > for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a > nation. > The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them > captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest > of the nations -- heathens. > Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind > to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and > Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. > I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the > ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry > to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and > the tribe of Benjamin. > Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, > Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. > Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America > to deny our heritage. > I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH > decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to > come home to. > Paul > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com > > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 > To: > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/a78d8775/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 17:30:17 2009 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (ram1500_man at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:30:17 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: <855590370903191519i780275f0y74077679671ef07e@mail.gmail.com> References: <251132750-1237500268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761097174-@bxe1244.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><855590370903191519i780275f0y74077679671ef07e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <632920663-1237501772-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-90738726-@bxe1056.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Hanoch, There was no disrespect intended! I was just simply stating that most Jews that I have talked to and dialogued with in the central Ohio area deny that Yeshua is the Messiah, but are still looking for the Messiah to make his appearance. I didn't mean to lump you or anyone else on this group in with those that I know. YHWH divorced His people, but the day will come when we will call Him Ishi... He will unite His people in His time, until then, I stand by my statement. Paul P.S. I'm glad you're in NY and me in Ohio, or I might have had to clean spit off my face!!!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hanoch Young Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:19:04 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 17:48:22 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:48:22 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: <632920663-1237501772-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-90738726-@bxe1056.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <251132750-1237500268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761097174-@bxe1244.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <855590370903191519i780275f0y74077679671ef07e@mail.gmail.com> <632920663-1237501772-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-90738726-@bxe1056.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <855590370903191548u2844908fw6064191394a317a@mail.gmail.com> Paul - Don't misunderstand - I do *NOT *believe Yeshua was/is the messiah. Until the *messianic era* occurs, we will not know the identity of WHO the messiah actually is. Until that occurs, 'who he is' is a moot point . And if what we've been living through for the last 2,000 years has been what the messiah has brought us - then something is very, very wrong... * Hanoch * On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:30 PM, wrote: > Hanoch, > There was no disrespect intended! I was just simply stating that most Jews > that I have talked to and dialogued with in the central Ohio area deny that > Yeshua is the Messiah, but are still looking for the Messiah to make his > appearance. I didn't mean to lump you or anyone else on this group in with > those that I know. > YHWH divorced His people, but the day will come when we will call Him > Ishi... He will unite His people in His time, until then, I stand by my > statement. > Paul > P.S. I'm glad you're in NY and me in Ohio, or I might have had to clean > spit off my face!!!! > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hanoch Young > > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:19:04 > To: > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/85233eb5/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 17:50:07 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] RUPERT MURDOCH Message-ID: <720100.79009.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OAS_AD('LeaderBrd'); if(document.cookie.indexOf('jp_traffic_manager') != -1){document.writeln('OasDefault/TravelVise_728x90');} I am not Jewish but... Mar. 19, 2009 RUPERT MURDOCH , THE JERUSALEM POST Over the years, some of my wildest critics seem to have assumed I am Jewish. At the same time, some of my closest friends wish I were. So let me set the record straight: I live in New York. I have a wife who craves Chinese food. And people I trust tell me I practically invented the word "chutzpah." Ladies and gentleman, I am humbled by the honor you have given me - because this award speaks more to your good work than it does to mine. The American Jewish Committee started in response to the persecution of Jews in czarist Russia. And your response took a very American form: an organization that would speak up for those who could not speak for themselves. In the century since your founding, the American Jewish Committee has become one of the world's most influential organizations. Yet though your concerns begin with the safety and welfare of Jews, these concerns are anything but parochial. The reason for this is clear: You know that the best guarantee of the security of Jews anywhere is the freedom of people everywhere. Your good work has helped bring real and lasting changes to our world. Unfortunately, while some threats have been defeated, new ones have taken their place. And these new threats remind us the AJC's work is more vital than ever. In Europe, men and woman who bear the tattoos of concentration camps today look out on a continent where Jewish lives and Jewish property are under attack - and public debate is poisoned by an anti-Semitism we thought had been dispatched to history's dustbin. In Iran, we see a regime that backs Hizbullah and Hamas now on course to acquire a nuclear weapon. In India, we see Islamic terrorists single out the Mumbai Jewish Center in a well-planned and well-coordinated attack that looks like it could be a test run for similar attacks in similar cities around the world. MOST FUNDAMENTALLY, we see a growing assault on both the legitimacy and security of the State of Israel. This assault comes from people who make clear they have no intention of ever living side-by-side in peace with a Jewish state - no matter how many concessions Israel might make. The reason for this is also clear: These are men who cannot abide the idea of freedom, tolerance and democracy. They hate Israel for the same reasons they hate us. As I speak, the flashpoint is Gaza. For months now, Hamas has been raining down rockets on Israeli civilians. Like all terrorist attacks, the aim is to spread fear within free societies, and to paralyze its leaders. This Israel cannot afford. I do not need to tell anyone in this room that no sovereign nation can sit by while its civilian population is attacked. Hamas knows this better than we do. And Hamas understands something else as well: In the 21st century, when democratic states respond to terrorist attacks, they face two terrible handicaps. THE FIRST HANDICAP is military. It's true that Israel's conventional superiority means it could flatten Gaza if it wanted. But the Israel Defense Forces - unlike Hamas - are accountable to a democratically chosen government. No matter which party is in the majority, every Israeli government knows it will be held accountable by its people and by the world for the lives that are lost because of its decisions. That's true for lives of innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire. And it's also true for the Israeli soldiers who may lose their lives defending their people. In this kind of war, Hamas does not need to defeat Israel militarily to win a big victory. In fact, Hamas knows that in some ways, dead Palestinians serve its purposes even better than dead Israelis. In the West we look at this and say, "It makes no sense." But it does make sense. If you are committed to Israel's destruction, and if you believe that dead Palestinians help you score a propaganda victory, you do things like launch rockets from a Palestinian schoolyard. This ensures that when the Israelis do respond, it will likely lead to the death of an innocent Palestinian - no matter how many precautions Israeli soldiers take. Hamas gets away with this, moreover, because it does not rule Gaza by the consent of those it claims to represent. It rules by fear and intimidation. It is accountable to no one but itself. This is the chilling logic of Gaza. And it helps explain why even a strong military power like Israel can find itself at a disadvantage on the ground. THE SECOND HANDICAP for Israel is the global media war. For Hamas, the images of Palestinian suffering - of people losing their homes, of parents mourning their dead children, of tanks rolling through the streets - create sympathy for its cause. In a battle marked by street to street fighting, the death of innocents is all but inevitable. That is also true of Gaza. And these deaths have led some to call for Israel to be charged with war crimes by an international tribunal. But I am curious: Why do we never hear calls for Hamas leaders to be charged with war crimes? Why, for example, do we hear no calls for human rights investigations into Hamas gunmen using Palestinian children as human shields? Why so few stories on the reports of Hamas assassins going to hospitals to hunt down their fellow Palestinians? And where are the international human rights groups demanding that Hamas stop blurring the most fundamental line in warfare: the distinction between civilian and combatant? I suspect the answer has to do with the same grim logic that leads Hamas to provoke a military battle it knows it cannot win. Whether Israel is ever found guilty of any war crime hardly matters. Hamas gets a propaganda win simply by having the charge made often and loudly enough. In this, Israel finds itself in much the same position the United States found itself in Iraq before the surge. There, al-Qaida realized that it was in its interests to provoke sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni - no matter what the cost to innocent Iraqis. That is the nature of terror. And what we are seeing in Gaza is just one front in this much larger war. IN THE WEST, we are used to thinking that Israel cannot survive without the help of Europe and the United States. Tonight I say to you: Maybe we should start wondering whether we in Europe and the United States can survive if we allow the terrorists to succeed in Israel. In this new century, the "West" is no longer a matter of geography. The West is defined by societies committed to freedom and democracy. That at least is how the terrorists see it. And if we are serious about meeting this challenge, we would expand the only military alliance committed to the defense of the West to include those on the front lines of this war. That means bringing countries such as Israel into NATO. My friends, I do not pretend to have all the answers to Gaza this evening. But I do know this: The free world makes a terrible mistake if we deceive ourselves into thinking this is not our fight. In the end, the Israeli people are fighting the same enemy we are: cold-blooded killers who reject peace, who reject freedom and who rule by the suicide vest, the car bomb and the human shield. Against such an enemy, I will not second-guess the decisions of a free Israel defending her citizens. And I would ask all those who support peace and freedom to do the same. Adapted from a March 4 speech to the American Jewish Committee by the chairman and CEO of News Corporation on receiving its National Human Relations Award. This article can also be read at http://www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1237392665709&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull [ Back to the Article ] Copyright 1995- 2009 The Jerusalem Post - http://www.jpost.com/ var _rsCI="jerusalem-post"; var _rsCG=(JPSectionName && JPSectionName != null && JPSectionName != '') ? JPSectionName : "0"; var _rsDN="//secure-uk.imrworldwide.com/"; var _rsCC=0; var _rsSE=1; var _rsSM=1.0; document.write (''); - var gaJsHost = (("https:" == document.location.protocol) ? "https://ssl." : "http://www."); document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + gaJsHost + "google-analytics.com/ga.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E")); var pageTracker = _gat._getTracker('UA-3326248-1'); pageTracker._initData(); pageTracker._trackPageview(); var pgShowBtn=0; var pgWebsiteId=847662; var pgWidgetType='printGreen'; var pgHost='http://www.xywidgets.com/'; "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/3791a5b4/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 17:51:52 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:51:52 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hoshea mentions nothing about Gentiles being members of the 12 tribes.He talks about the two kingdoms being joined together again 2:2 And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head, and they shall go up from the land, for great is the day of Jezreel. and the ingathering of the tribes out of the Gentile nations 8:8 Israel has been swallowed; now they are among the nations as a useless utensil. 9 For they went up to Assyria, a wild donkey secluded to himself, they paid hire for love. 10 Although they pay hire among the nations, now I will gather them, and they will be humbled a little from the burden of the king and the princes. Gentiles are not the children of Israel nor are they Israel. Gentiles that are ger toshav are connected to Israel by faith as in "the stranger that dwells among you", but they are not any tribe. Tosefta,Saheddrin 13:The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come.Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9: I call heaven and earth as witnesses:Any individual,whether gentile or Jew,man or woman,servant or maid,can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance to his deeds. A person doesn't just wake up some morning and decide they are a member of the tribes.If just saying something made it true,I'd be up tomorrow morning saying I was a millionaire instead of an unemployed house painter .But hey, people can want and believe what they want to,right? I'll think I'll set the alarm nice and early . Shalom ,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 5:57:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: The Navi Hoshea deals with the last point pretty clearly... Hanoch On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:44 PM, <_Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) > wrote: The so called "Black Hebrews" were a Christian group in Chicago back in the 60's that one day decided they were the real Israel and that all white, Asian, and other non black followers of Judaism usurped the land from their ancestors. I was amazed when Israel let them go ahead and move there years ago.Can you say cult? I knew you could. It's just to similar to the Mormon's calling themselves the tribe of Joseph and everyone else Gentiles and the days of British Israelism. What amazes me even more so is the growing number of Gentiles calling themselves the tribe of Ephraim, claiming Jews are Judah and they are the northern kingdom. Rockets 101 class says the 12 tribes are from the sons of Yaacov, none of which are Gentiles. The civil war Israel had that split it into two kingdoms did not suddenly turn the northern kingdom into people that were not members of the tribes after it ended. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 4:03:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom L'Kulam, This is a fascinating situation - these individuals are NOT Jews, and have never claimed to be (actually, they claimed that they [they're from the US] are the TRUE tribe of Judah, not the 'white' Jews). Israel didn't kick them out because of the potential bad press (dragging blacks in robes out of their homes..). But here is what I want you to keep in mind reading this - they stayed in Israel, created 'facts on the ground,' did not seek publicity for themselves OR TRY TO CONVERT others to their beliefs. And now, the first one is an actual Israeli citizen. I think that there are some real precedents for some Ephramites....just thoughts rattling around in my head..... Hanoch Once Reviled, Black Hebrews Now F?ted African-American Group in Dimona Faced Down IDF in ?86, Now Celebrates First Member To Become Israeli Citizen GETTY IMAGES Acceptence: Israeli President Shimon Peres (center) holds hands with Black Hebrews leader Ben Ammi Ben-Israel (in red) at an event at the group?s Village of Peace in Dimona, where Peres celebrated his 85th birthday in August. By Andrew Esensten Published March 18, 2009, issue of _March 27, 2009_ (http://www.forward.com/issues/2009-03-27/) . FORWARD Elyahkeem Ben Yehuda could have become another statistic, growing up poor, black and fatherless on the west side of Chicago during the 1950s. But he never had a run-in with the law, nor did he see the inside of a jail cell, until he moved to Israel to join the African Hebrew Israelite community. ?I had to come to Israel to get my first experience in jail,? he said. ?But in those days, that was like a badge of honor, to be arrested for God and His people.? Last month, the 62-year-old Ben Yehuda ? father of 10 children and husband of 3 women ? became the first member of his community to gain full Israeli citizenship. Looking back on the hurdles he overcame since his 1971 arrival, Ben Yehuda mused, ?I can only describe this journey in relationship to my forefathers,? referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. ?They were able to endure. As long as we put fulfilling the will of the God of Israel first, there?s no challenge that we can?t overcome.? ANDREW ESENSTEN For the land: Two scenes from the Dance for the Land celebration, held by the Black Hebrew community in Dimona, Israel. The African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem ? or Black Hebrews, as they are more commonly known (though not all members are black) ? have sparred with the Israeli government for decades over their right to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. It is a right they still do not have. But presaging Ben Yehuda?s achievement last month, Israel granted the community permanent residency status in 2003, offering its 3,000 members a five-year path to apply for citizenship on an individual basis. It?s a process that many others are now undertaking. The Promised Land took many decades before putting out a welcome mat for the Black Hebrews. Asked by a newspaper reporter in 1980 what would happen if the Israeli government attempted to expel the entire community, as was widely expected then, the group?s leader, Ben Ammi Ben-Israel, replied: ?If they send soldiers and the police, they could probably succeed in getting two-thirds of us out. The other third they would have to kill.? For much of its 40-year existence in Israel, the Hebrew community has been the subject of intense and hostile scrutiny, owed, in part, to its reputation as a cult, its belligerent attitude toward outsiders and its secrecy about the sometimes illegal methods used to bring its members to Israel. As recently as 2005, The Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli police and the National Insurance Institute, in coordination with the FBI, were probing allegations of widespread insurance fraud within the community. The investigation ultimately led nowhere. At the time, Israeli officials blamed the closed nature of the community for hindering their investigation, while community leaders dismissed the charges as spurious and the investigation as racially motivated. Yet, in contrast to the Post?s depiction of a shadowy sect, the community is more open today than it ever has been, and it actively works to promote awareness about its unique culture. [The author was hosted inside the Black Hebrews? village from September 2007 to November 2008 while conducting research on an academic fellowship.] Indeed, the community has gone from the fringes of Israeli society to the mainstream, with its gospel choir performing for heads of state, and its youth enlisting at age 18 in the Israel Defense Forces. Several Black Hebrews participated in IDF ground operations in Gaza during the most recent war against Hamas, according to community spokeswoman Yafah Baht Gavriel. The past year has brought even greater acceptance for the Black Hebrews. In August 2008, Israel?s president, Shimon Peres, celebrated his 85th birthday in Dimona, where he visited their settlement, the Village of Peace, and was effusive in his praise of Ben Ammi and his people. ?Your community is beloved in Israel,? Peres said. ?You give the country happiness and song and hope for a better world.? He assured the Black Hebrews that Israel does not tolerate discrimination, and he pledged to facilitate their transition to citizenship. ?Our hands are in yours; your destiny must be our destiny,? Peres said. The founders of the Hebrew community are blacks, primarily from Chicago, who identify themselves as descendants of the Tribe of Judah and view Israel as their ancestral homeland. The Chief Rabbinate has never accepted their claim to Judaism ? and they have always refused to convert as a group ? but their relationship with the Israeli government has evolved over the past 40 years. The Hebrew community was born of the black-separatist movement of the early 20th century, which rejected the possibility that African Americans could live as equals with white people in the United States. Even today, many Hebrews believe there is no future for blacks in America, although they operate missions in such places as Atlanta and Washington. Ben Ammi Ben-Israel ? born Ben Carter ? is a former metallurgist from Chicago who says that the angel Gabriel appeared to him in a vision in 1966 and instructed him to deliver his people to the Promised Land from America. He is 69 years old and lives in Dimona with his four wives. The first members arrived in Israel in 1969 via Liberia, where they had spent two-and-a-half years cleansing themselves of spiritual impurities in preparation for what they refer to as their prophetic return to Israel to establish the ?Kingdom of God.? Officials at what was then Lod Airport, however, did not know what to do with them when they stepped off the plane. The government decided to send the initial group of 39 Black Hebrews to the impoverished Negev town of Dimona, expecting them to leave after their first taste of desert life. Despite their isolation and limited resources, the Black Hebrews thrived by drawing closer to one another and to Yah, the God of Israel, members of the community said. Newer members seeking to join the community after 1969 were turned around at the border and told that their status as Jews was under debate. So they found other ways of entering the country ? in one case, posing as a Christian tour group and sneaking down to Dimona in the middle of the night. The 1970s and ?80s were characterized by mass arrests and deportations on one side, and by accusations of racism and denials of the legitimacy of the Israeli government on the other. Israeli authorities threw Ben Yehuda and other community members in prison in 1973 when they tried to renounce their American citizenship at the American embassy in Tel Aviv. The Black Hebrews had hoped to avoid deportation for overstaying their temporary visas by becoming stateless, but many, including Ben Yehuda, were sent back to America. The government did, in fact, send soldiers to Dimona on April 22, 1986. During what has become known in Black Hebrew lore as the Day of the Show of Strength, community members faced down dozens of Israeli troops who surrounded their village. Dressed in white robes, the Black Hebrews had threatened to march to Jerusalem to attract publicity for their plight. The army eventually backed down, and the planned march to Jerusalem was called off. Relations began to improve steadily, beginning in 1990, when the government allowed community members to receive work permits. According to Ben Ammi, the racially charged environment in America that the Black Hebrews left behind prevented them from having an uncomplicated relationship with the Israelis. ?We arrived here with a chip on our shoulder,? he admitted. ?We weren?t ready for any Europeans to tell us who we were.? The Black Hebrews strongly reject such labels as ?sect? and ?cult,? and insist that they are not a religious group of any kind, but rather a community of truth seekers who live according to God?s laws, as recorded in the Torah. Their lifestyle incorporates Baptist worship practices and elements of traditional African culture. The government appears to ignore their practice of polygamy, which is illegal in Israel. They fast on the Sabbath and are strict vegans. They also manufacture kosher vegan foods at their Dimona factory. Like Karaite Jews, the Black Hebrews observe biblically mandated holy days but not those instituted by rabbinical decree, such as Hanukkah and Purim. They also celebrate their own holidays, including an annual spring festival called New World Kingdom Passover. Members from all over the world converge on Dimona for this two-day commemoration of the anniversary of the 1967 ?exodus? from America, which they call the ?Land of the Great Captivity.? This Hebrew community is perhaps best known outside Israel for the accomplishments of its performing artists ? including Eddie Butler, who represented Israel in the international singing competition Eurovision in 1999 and 2006 ? and for hosting such popular musicians as Stevie Wonder and Whitney Houston. With former husband Bobby Brown, Houston visited the Village of Peace in 2003. Still, it is a visit by Louis Farrakhan in 1975 and his public embrace of Ben Ammi in 2000 that leave many Jews in Israel and America still suspicious of the community. Farrakhan, head of the black nationalist Nation of Islam, is widely regarded by Jews and many others as antisemitic, because of speeches in which he has condemned, disparaged and threatened Jews as a people. During his address at the October 2000 Million Family March in Washington, Farrakhan invited Ben Ammi to the podium and embraced him rhetorically as his ? brother.? In a statement to the Forward, Ben Ammi described the relationship between the two groups as ?cordial.? ?Our contacts remain through the African-American social arena, where both communities are almost always represented,? he explained. ?During those gatherings, the subject matter has to do with issues of concern for the African-American community at large. Beyond that, there is an understanding that we voice the positions of the State of Israel and the NOI (Nation of Islam) the positions of the Arab world.? Another source of concern has been the alleged association of the Black Hebrew community with the more radical and often brazenly racist and violent Hebrew Israelite camps in the United States, including the Nation of Yahweh. There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, and Ben Ammi has long denied any relationship with such groups. Over time, Ben Ammi said, the community leadership has learned to tone down its own anti-white and anti-Zionist rhetoric and to preach a more inclusive message. The group still hews to a theology that asserts the status of African Americans as the authentic descendants of the original Israelites, who they argue were dark-skinned. But, Ben Ammi said, ?We?ve matured. The message has matured. And I feel that the people in the land, with the visit of President Peres, have matured also.? Their presence in Israel no longer contested, the Black Hebrews have established an urban kibbutz called Shomrey Ha?Shalom (Guardians of Peace) and secured a plot of land in the Mamshit area of Dimona for a new settlement that can better accommodate their rapidly growing community. A new gym will be built this year, next to their school, Beit Sefer Achvah (the Brotherhood School), with money from the national lottery. Meir Cohen, mayor of Dimona, said that this group of people makes a valuable contribution to the cultural life of the city and country. Asked if he believed they were from the Tribe of Judah, he replied: ?There is no doubt that the descendants of the Tribe of Judah and the other tribes traveled all over the world. You just have to discover them, or they have to discover themselves.? Andrew Esensten received a fellowship from Harvard University in 2007 to study the Hebrew community. He lived inside their village in Dimona from September 2007 to November 2008 and is currently writing a book about them. _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/7ea1a52b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 19 18:08:01 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Message-ID: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop> I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel." This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, "my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages." His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself "Lebanese Shee'a Hackers." The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda - while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider's repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON'T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER'S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!" - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the "Capital of Hizballah.") And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force "is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports." Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received "hundreds of messages and complaints" from group members, "including some to high-ranking officials through connections." However, "Facebook," Snider notes, "seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel." In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the "Report" links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the "Report" links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook's indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, "to resort to hunting the 'hackers' ourselves." Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn't always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members - most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn't easy to reach all of them. "Unfortunately," explains Snider, "it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the 'hackers,' it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group." Todd Snider's original goal was commendable. He began the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. "I was encouraged, as a Jew," he explained, "to support our homeland and America's best ally." He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider's, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel." This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, "my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages." His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself "Lebanese Shee'a Hackers." The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda - while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider's repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON'T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER'S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!" - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the "Capital of Hizballah.") And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force "is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports." Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received "hundreds of messages and complaints" from group members, "including some to high-ranking officials through connections." However, "Facebook," Snider notes, "seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel." In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the "Report" links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the "Report" links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook's indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, "to resort to hunting the 'hackers' ourselves." Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn't always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members - most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn't easy to reach all of them. "Unfortunately," explains Snider, "it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the 'hackers,' it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group." Todd Snider's original goal was commendable. He began the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. "I was encouraged, as a Jew," he explained, "to support our homeland and America's best ally." He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider's, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/c61b3ac8/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 18:09:52 2009 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (ram1500_man at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:09:52 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <411481525-1237504145-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-389903796-@bxe1013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Who then are the children of Israel? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:51:52 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Mar 19 18:20:03 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: <411481525-1237504145-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-389903796-@bxe1013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <411481525-1237504145-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-389903796-@bxe1013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <034801c9a8e9$405a8410$c10f8c30$@com> Great question - if they aren't the Jews and they aren't the Gentiles - who's left? Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of ram1500_man at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Who then are the children of Israel? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:51:52 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 19 18:31:55 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:31:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this and all of your other posts, Hanoch, and all. I am just not able to keep up with you guys anymore! This is very troubling, but are we not told that all nations will turn against Israel? Maybe things are escalating. I suppose the good news is that we who believe in HaShem know the final outcome.Psalms 83. Elisheva/Betty _____ It's so wonderful that Obama got such a majority of the Jewish vote... Hanoch America 'Moves Towards Abandonment of Israel' Adar 23, 5769, 19 March 09 04:26 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) An unnamed former highly-placed U.S.intelligence official has broken silence and says that America may soon be abandoning Israel in favor of the Arabs. "This is just the beginning", he said, "Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States.." The source made these remarks in an exclusive interview with Douglas J. Hagmann, the director of the Northeast Intelligence Network (NIN), which is comprised of veteran licensed professional investigators, analysts, military affairs specialists and researchers. The group has combined their resources to provide accurate and well-sourced information via their website. Hagmann appeared on Israel National Radio's Weekend Edition with host Tamar Yonah. http://News/News.aspx/130501130501Click to listen When questioned about the possible abandonment of Israel by America, Hagmann told Yonah, "The Obama administration is no friend to Israel, is no friend to the Jews in America and is no friend to democracy or freedom in America. .Just by his very appointments, we can see him filling positions of power with people who are anti-Semitic, who want to see Israel essentially dissolved as a nation, if not by diplomacy, then certainly by war." In his report, the unnamed intelligence source told Hagmann, "I have every reason to believe, based on what I've seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own. or worse." He explained this would happen "when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel's defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation." Haggman told Yonah that this official broke silence because he had already retired from his highly placed position, and because of his knowledge of the NIN's (Northeast Intelligence Network) position as pro-Israel and the way it valued the relationship between Israel and America. Another reason, he said, was his own perception of the Biblical aspect of this scenario developing. The intelligence officer explained that the turnover of American policy towards Israel could occur through a manner that he dubbed 'malicious intelligence," which Haggman defined as information that is taken from its raw form. It then is morphed into something else to promote different interests, "where intelligence and politics meet and often collide," he said. A method "that has been molded and massaged to advance the agendas of a select few," he elaborated. In the case of the relationship between America and Israel, he noted, malicious intelligence is being used to turn over the U.S. to a more anti-Israel policy and forge ahead with a more pro-PA or pro-Islamist one. Hagmann told Yonah in the radio interview, "A perfect example of this is when there was a shooting in Seattle a couple of years ago at a Jewish center. The police were ordered by the city officials and by the Federal Government, basically, to not protect the synagogues and other Jewish centers in Seattle, but to have protection details [instead] at the mosques in Seattle." U.S. administrations have apparently been following a policy of abandoning Israel for several years, according to Hagmann's report. His interview with the intelligence official cited "the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today [rocket and missile fire on Israel], it was done anyway," he stated. In the report that Hagmann posted on the NIN (Northeast Intelligence Network) he cited one of his sources explaining, "Now you can see where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,. " the Obama administration is being purposely filled with people who are truly anti-Israel, either because of their own financial interests or a larger globalist agenda that does not include Israel, or for that matter, the United States as a sovereign nation. "Whatever the reason, the anti-Israel, pro-Islamist policy makers will be appointed or have already infiltrated nearly all levels of the U.S. government. These are the people who place anti-Semitic references in school textbooks, promote revisionist history regarding Islam, 9/11, and are the same people who allow or even promote the Islamic agendas in all aspects of Western society, especially the restrictions on speech against Islam. "With regard to the latter, note that the United Nations is quite involved in forcing the restriction of "hate speech" and the implementation of global standards, some that have already been adapted by European nations," noted the source. Hagmann reports that "the Middle East will be the site of 'the coming war,' and Israel will be at its epicenter. If we survive as a nation, the U.S. will not be on the side of righteousness in this war, instead turning our back to - or our guns against - our only true friend in the Middle East - Israel," he said. www.IsraelNationalNews.com C Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/0f12e7b0/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 18:53:41 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:53:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/42b0febe/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 19:07:43 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:07:43 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Shalom alechem Hanoch In reference to your comment: Generally, I think you stated what many people on this list have known for over 17 years, in some cases - that they are being called to HaShem (G-d). That although you can agree, or disagree with the term "Ephramite" - that an amazing phenomenon has been occurring. This point you make here I DEFINATELY concur. I don't buy the whole Ephramite thing in a literal sense,but let's just say now,we agree to disagree. This forum remains one of the finest group of people I have had the pleasure to discuss,debate and share with.Like I said before,we're all on the same road, just driving different cars.Yasher koach on your voice of reason,chaver. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:19:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Paul, Generally, I think you stated what many people on this list have known for over 17 years, in some cases - that they are being called to HaShem (G-d). That although you can agree, or disagree with the term "Ephramite" - that an amazing phenomenon has been occurring. And I LOVE the idea of us working together, however, when you use terms like: "Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is.." well, that is something that I will not tolerate from anyone, anytime. Perhaps you don't know the historical connotations that expression conjures up for us, Jews? All false modesty aside, I think that I have personally been in the forefront of attempting dialogue with Ephramites (particularly "Messianic" Ephramites). But you can't have dialogue when you have no respect for, or willingness to allow anyone to have a different belief then yours. Having said that, if someone were to come up to me and say that "...the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is..." I would spit in his face. You CANNOT have dialogue without mutual "respect" - and there is no way to compromise on that point.... Hanoch On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:05 PM, <_ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) > wrote: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: _Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: <_dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/1c90a623/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 19:16:22 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <147454.39646.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Betty, I was weeding in the garden today and started thinking about all the post.? I am so thankful for this group and all the post.? I may not agree with everything that is posted but all of it makes me search.? I sometimes get so distressed by the news, ?but then I remember that He is moving and we are living in such incredible times!? ? Margie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] And this is how they're planning to do it... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:31 PM Thanks for this and all of your other posts, Hanoch, and all.? I am just not able to keep up with you guys anymore!? This is very troubling, but are we not told that all nations will turn against Israel ?? Maybe things are escalating.? I suppose the good news is that we who believe in HaShem know the final outcome?Psalms 83. ? Elisheva/Betty ? ? It's so wonderful that Obama got such a majority of the Jewish vote... ???????????????????????? Hanoch America 'Moves Towards Abandonment of Israel ' Adar 23, 5769, 19 March 09 04:26 by by IsraelNN Staff (IsraelNN.com) An unnamed former highly-placed U.S.intelligence official has broken silence and says that America may soon be abandoning Israel in favor of the Arabs. ?This is just the beginning?, he said, " Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States .." The source made these remarks in an exclusive interview with Douglas J. Hagmann, the director of the Northeast Intelligence Network?(NIN), which is comprised of veteran licensed professional investigators, analysts, military affairs specialists and researchers. The group has combined their resources to provide accurate and well-sourced information via their website. Hagmann appeared on Israel National Radio's Weekend Edition with host Tamar Yonah. Click to listen When questioned about the possible abandonment of Israel by America , Hagmann told Yonah, "The Obama administration is no friend to Israel , is no friend to the Jews in America and is no friend to democracy or freedom in America .? ?Just by his very appointments, we can see him filling positions of power with people who are anti-Semitic, who want to see Israel essentially dissolved as a nation, if not by diplomacy, then certainly by war." In his report, the unnamed intelligence source told Hagmann, ?I have every reason to believe, based on what I?ve seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own? or worse.? He explained this would happen ?when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel ?s defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation.?? Haggman told Yonah that this official broke silence because he had already retired from his highly placed position, and because of his knowledge of the NIN's (Northeast Intelligence Network) position as pro-Israel and the way it valued the relationship between Israel and America . Another reason, he said, was his own perception of the Biblical aspect of this scenario developing. The intelligence officer explained that the? turnover of American policy towards Israel could occur through a manner that he dubbed 'malicious intelligence," which Haggman defined as information that is taken from its raw form. It then?is morphed into something else to promote different interests, "where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? he said.? A method ?that has been molded and massaged to advance the agendas of a select few,? he elaborated. In the case of the relationship between America and Israel, he noted,?malicious intelligence is being used to turn over the U.S. to a more anti-Israel policy and forge ahead with a more pro-PA or pro-Islamist one.? Hagmann told Yonah in the radio interview, "A perfect example of this is when there was a shooting in Seattle a couple of years ago at a Jewish center. The police were ordered by the city officials and by the Federal Government, basically, to not protect the synagogues and other Jewish centers in Seattle , but to have protection details [instead] at the mosques in Seattle ." U.S. administrations have apparently been following a policy of abandoning Israel for several years, according to Hagmann's report.? His interview with the intelligence official cited "the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today [rocket and missile fire on Israel], it was done anyway," he stated. In the report that Hagmann posted on the NIN (Northeast Intelligence Network) he cited one of his sources explaining,? ?Now you can see where intelligence and politics meet and often collide,? " the Obama administration is being purposely filled with people who are truly anti-Israel, either because of their own financial interests or a larger globalist agenda that does not? include Israel , or for that matter, the United States as a sovereign nation. "Whatever the reason, the anti-Israel, pro-Islamist policy makers will be appointed or have already infiltrated nearly all levels of the U.S. government. These are the people who place anti-Semitic references in school textbooks, promote revisionist history regarding Islam, 9/11, and are the same people who allow or even promote the Islamic agendas in all aspects of Western society, especially the restrictions on speech against Islam. "With regard to the latter, note that the United Nations is quite involved in forcing the restriction of ?hate speech? and the implementation of global standards, some that have already been adapted by European nations,? noted the source.? Hagmann reports that "the Middle East will be the site of 'the coming war,' and Israel will be at its epicenter. If we survive as a nation, the U.S. will not be on the side of righteousness in this war, instead turning our back to - or our guns against - our only true friend in the Middle East - Israel ," he said. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com ? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/7be94b8d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 19:16:33 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:16:33 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Message-ID: Hello Elisheva, I forwardws this email from you to the Jewish Press editor.Maybe they can do a story on it.Thank you,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Date: 3/19/2009 7:08:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _bkgivin at charter.net_ (mailto:bkgivin at charter.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. _Part II to this story_ (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=42CDB933-16F1-4EC3-817F-C47FE3C0247B) . Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. _Part II to this story_ (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=42CDB933-16F1-4EC3-817F-C47FE3C0247B) . Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/97b5c092/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 20:09:22 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:09:22 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I think a boycott of Facebook is in order. Maybe that will get their attention. Let's advertise it on Facebook. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/4c8107c5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Mar 19 20:17:57 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:17:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Latest on the TIME Dead Sea Scrolls Story Message-ID: I just updated my Blog with the latest on that TIME magazine Dead Sea Scrolls story that appeared Monday on-line, including my communication with a TIME senior editor and a communication with Prof. Charlesworth, see jamestabor.com/blog James From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 19 20:40:40 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:40:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62FDB52F3F014B19A0239E4D5A49F6A7@bettylaptop> You are welcome, Hez. I got it from Unity Coalition Israel that I subscribe to. They put out a lot of good material. In case you are interested and are not familiar with the link, here it is www.israelunitycoalition.org Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:17 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Hello Elisheva, I forwardws this email from you to the Jewish Press editor.Maybe they can do a story on it.Thank you,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Date: 3/19/2009 7:08:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel." This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, "my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages." His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself "Lebanese Shee'a Hackers." The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda - while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider's repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON'T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER'S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!" - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the "Capital of Hizballah.") And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force "is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports." Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received "hundreds of messages and complaints" from group members, "including some to high-ranking officials through connections." However, "Facebook," Snider notes, "seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel." In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the "Report" links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the "Report" links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook's indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, "to resort to hunting the 'hackers' ourselves." Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn't always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members - most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn't easy to reach all of them. "Unfortunately," explains Snider, "it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the 'hackers,' it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group." Todd Snider's original goal was commendable. He began the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. "I was encouraged, as a Jew," he explained, "to support our homeland and America's best ally." He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider's, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel." This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, "my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages." His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself "Lebanese Shee'a Hackers." The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda - while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider's repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON'T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER'S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!" - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the "Capital of Hizballah.") And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force "is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports." Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received "hundreds of messages and complaints" from group members, "including some to high-ranking officials through connections." However, "Facebook," Snider notes, "seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel." In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the "Report" links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the "Report" links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook's indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, "to resort to hunting the 'hackers' ourselves." Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn't always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members - most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn't easy to reach all of them. "Unfortunately," explains Snider, "it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the 'hackers,' it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group." Todd Snider's original goal was commendable. He began the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. "I was encouraged, as a Jew," he explained, "to support our homeland and America's best ally." He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider's, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/e9f286a5/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Mar 19 20:46:55 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:46:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Message-ID: Toda raba Elisheva. I have book marked it on my list. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Date: 3/19/2009 9:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _bkgivin at charter.net_ (mailto:bkgivin at charter.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: You are welcome, Hez. I got it from Unity Coalition Israel that I subscribe to. They put out a lot of good material. In case you are interested and are not familiar with the link, here it is _www.israelunitycoalition.org_ (http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/) Elisheva/Betty ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:17 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Hello Elisheva, I forwardws this email from you to the Jewish Press editor.Maybe they can do a story on it.Thank you,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering Date: 3/19/2009 7:08:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _bkgivin at charter.net_ (mailto:bkgivin at charter.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. _Part II to this story_ (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=42CDB933-16F1-4EC3-817F-C47FE3C0247B) . Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. _Part II to this story_ (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=42CDB933-16F1-4EC3-817F-C47FE3C0247B) . Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/e8437103/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Mar 19 20:53:22 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:53:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: <032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop> <032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: John, I am not that active on Facebook. I only got on it because my daughter and several of my friends sent me an invitation. The funny thing is that I do not even yet have a "face!" Dave Cole teased me about that. Do you have any ideas as to how to advertise it? It seems that the Facebook Operations Team could care less about the issue as you can see in the political garbage in their canned reply. It is sad and makes me angry. Have you ever heard of this author? His books sound interesting. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering I think a boycott of Facebook is in order. Maybe that will get their attention. Let's advertise it on Facebook. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel." This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, "my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages." His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself "Lebanese Shee'a Hackers." The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda - while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider's repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON'T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER'S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!" - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the "Capital of Hizballah.") And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force "is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports." Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received "hundreds of messages and complaints" from group members, "including some to high-ranking officials through connections." However, "Facebook," Snider notes, "seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel." In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the "Report" links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the "Report" links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook's indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, "to resort to hunting the 'hackers' ourselves." Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn't always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members - most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn't easy to reach all of them. "Unfortunately," explains Snider, "it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the 'hackers,' it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group." Todd Snider's original goal was commendable. He began the "I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel" group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. "I was encouraged, as a Jew," he explained, "to support our homeland and America's best ally." He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider's, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090319/074c7f0c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Mar 19 21:28:34 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:28:34 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom. Message-ID: <49C2FF52.3040901@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/8b94b19d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 21:28:46 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 02:28:46 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <032020090228.310.49C2FF5B000A99070000013622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Folks, I am attaching the a copy of the rules of the Dialogue list as established by it's founder Ross Nichols. Please refresh your memories by reading it. Outside of that I have a couple of questions for Paul and Hez. Paul, Your statement about the Jews being blind to their Messiah is curious to me. I come from a Christian background and I find very little support in the Torah that the Jewish people "must" accept the advent of a particular person as their Messiah in order for them to be saved. In fact, I have found very little in the Tanach that supports the concept that Messiah is required for the salvation of any particular soul at all, he has a very different purpose from what I have read. The Jews have had many "messiah's" throughout the ages, who are we to tell them that they have missed the boat? Please tell us why you think that the Jews must accept the conclusions of a religion that has been politically compromised and has violently oppressed them for thousands of years. Hez, Your statement about the Gentiles not being the children of Israel, nor are they Israel is equally curious to me. I have seen you make this point before but for the life of me I cannot decipher what it is you are trying to say? I have been on this list from its inception and I have met no-one so far who actually believes that they woke up one morning and decided that they were Jewish or even of the Israel, having been a Gentile the day before. Your quotes from Hosea are quite relevant but they only serve to bolster the understanding that all (as far as I can tell) of those who are not Jewish on this list, that G-d will call Israel out of the nations. We all know that Gentiles are not Jews, that's a given. But the Northern tribes were in fact absorbed by the nations (Hosea says so). The Northern tribes were not Jewish, they were of Israel. Hosea says that G-d will call them out of the nations. So that clearly means that they still exist inside of the nations. I cannot tell what you are trying to say so I am going to speculate a little. Either your point is that those to be called out are the actual persons who were taken into captivity (gonna have a hard time with that one) or that you are saying that Israel, outside of the Jews, no longer exists. If the latter is the case, then who is to be called out? Most of us (if not all) who answer to the label "Ephraimite" (anyone who has spent any time on this list knows how I feel about labels) are not actually saying that we belong to any particular tribe. There is no way at this time for any of us to know that (or to not know that), we just feel G-d's call to attach ourselves to our brother Judah. There is no way for any of us to know whether we belong to the lineage of Israel at all for that matter (or to not know that). But to suggest that the lineage of Israel outside of the Jews has ceased to exist makes no sense at all. Did, those whose father was Abraham who were not of Jacob cease to exist? Of course not. Did those whose father was Noah who were not of the house of Abraham cease to exist? Of course not. So why would one assume that those who were of the house of Jacob who were not of the house of Judah cease to exist? We cannot cease to be of our lineage, whether it came from our mother's or our fathers. They are our ancestors, whether we remember it or not. So, does the house of Israel still live among the Gentiles? Yes indeed. Are they Gentiles? In G-d's eyes probably not. Does anyone know who they are (including themselves)? I doubt it. Does that mean that they don't exist? Nope. Personaly, I think this will be Messiah's biggest job (whoever he may be), to sort this mess out. And yes, I do have my own opinions of who he is but they are no relevance here. Please try a different tack and provide us a clearer explanation of your point. To both of you I say that there is no basis for such certainty about these subjects outside of your own faith. I ask you to please afford everyone on this list the respect and latitude of belief that you yourselves expect. Brachot v'Shalom. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hezakiah4 at aol.com: -------------- Shalom alechem Hanoch In reference to your comment: Generally, I think you stated what many people on this list have known for over 17 years, in some cases - that they are being called to HaShem (G-d). That although you can agree, or disagree with the term "Ephramite" - that an amazing phenomenon has been occurring. This point you make here I DEFINATELY concur. I don't buy the whole Ephramite thing in a literal sense,but let's just say now,we agree to disagree. This forum remains one of the finest group of people I have had the pleasure to discuss,debate and share with.Like I said before,we're all on the same road, just driving different cars.Yasher koach on your voice of reason,chaver. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj:Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date:3/19/2009 6:19:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From:youngbarzel at gmail.com To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Paul, Generally, I think you stated what many people on this list have known for over 17 years, in some cases - that they are being called to HaShem (G-d). That although you can agree, or disagree with the term "Ephramite" - that an amazing phenomenon has been occurring. And I LOVE the idea of us working together, however, when you use terms like: "Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is.." well, that is something that I will not tolerate from anyone, anytime. Perhaps you don't know the historical connotations that expression conjures up for us, Jews? All false modesty aside, I think that I have personally been in the forefront of attempting dialogue with Ephramites (particularly "Messianic" Ephramites). But you can't have dialogue when you have no respect for, or willingness to allow anyone to have a different belief then yours. Having said that, if someone were to come up to me and say that "...the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is..." I would spit in his face. You CANNOT have dialogue without mutual "respect" - and there is no way to compromise on that point.... Hanoch On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:05 PM, wrote: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/e26d2dd5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/msword Size: 31744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/e26d2dd5/attachment.dot From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 21:40:30 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 02:40:30 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: References: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop><032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <032020090240.21437.49C3021C00026346000053BD22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Betty, No I've never heard of him until your post. But that doesn't mean anything, I have a hard enough time keeping up with the email lists let alone Facebook. I doesn't surprise me though that the jihad has infiltrated here as well. Those who perpetrated this were no doubt trained in the US, we're very good about that. I'm certainly no expert on Facebook but I think if we simply start a new site calling for those who support Israel to stop using Facebook completely and send it out through our network, it will at least get the attention of those in charge. They may wipe it out, but the beauty of Facebook is that they can't stop first time ventures until they have already be sent out, so we just start another site. It's exactly what the jihadist's are doing. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- John, I am not that active on Facebook. I only got on it because my daughter and several of my friends sent me an invitation. The funny thing is that I do not even yet have a ?face!? Dave Cole teased me about that. Do you have any ideas as to how to advertise it? It seems that the Facebook Operations Team could care less about the issue as you can see in the political garbage in their canned reply. It is sad and makes me angry. Have you ever heard of this author? His books sound interesting. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. Elisheva/Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering I think a boycott of Facebook is in order. Maybe that will get their attention. Let's advertise it on Facebook. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- I thought some of you who have Facebook accounts might be interested in this. It just goes to show that the jihad against Israel seems to appear everywhere, and none of us are immune, either as individuals or as a group. Very sobering indeed. Elisheva/Betty Facebook Jihad Robert Spencer - Mar 06, 2009 FrontPageMagazine.com The jihad against Israel rages not just in Gaza, but worldwide, including on the Internet -- and even on Facebook, as a 14-year-old American Jew named Todd Snider recently discovered. In July 2008, Snider started a Facebook group called ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel.? This group quickly grew to become the largest pro-Israel group on Facebook, with over 180,000 members. But then, unexpectedly, this group gave this enterprising and dedicated young man a lesson in jihadist intimidation and thuggery -- including an unpleasant taste of how Western bureaucrats abet that thuggery, whether out of indifference or complicity. On February 15, 2009, Snider recounts, ?my inbox was suddenly flooded with messages.? His pro-Israel Facebook group had been hacked and destroyed by a pro-Hizballah group calling itself ?Lebanese Shee?a Hackers.? The hackers completely erased the original site content and replaced it with pro-jihad, anti-Israel propaganda ? while Facebook authorities stood by and let it all happen, answering Snider?s repeated entreaties for help with bland form letters. The hackers gained administrative privileges to the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group through the account of a co-administrator who had fallen for an illegal Internet phishing scheme, in which she was prompted to enter her account information and did so. They changed the group picture to one of Hassan Nasrallah and wrote the following obscene message in the Group Description section: - - - quoted message "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "WELCOME TO BINT JBEIL, SOUTH LEBANON! "DEAR ADMINS, "DON?T WASTE MY AND YOUR TIME, LEAVE THIS GROUP ITS BETTER FOR BOTH THIS IS THE LAST TIME ILL EDIT YOU INFO, NEXT TIME "AND IN A COUPLE OF HOURS YOU WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THIS GROUP. "IM TIRED NOW I WANT TO GO TO SLEEP AND ILL PUT THAT BANANA IN YOUR MOTHER?S *** (expletive deleted) AND AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEAVE THE GROUP TOMORROW I MAY ERASE EVRYTHING . "GOOD NIGHT ******** (expletive deleted) "Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah: (2008) "O you Zionists!, O you murderers!, O you rapists!, By God i swear, in the coming war, we will confront you in a manner you have never faced in your entire existence!? - - - end quoted message (Bint Jbeil is the Lebanese city on the border with Israel that is known as the ?Capital of Hizballah.?) And in a classic example of projection, the hacked group page now claims that the Jewish Internet Defense Force ?is attacking our groups and changing the Group Description and Recent News with threatening letters and offensive slurs especially during Ghaza [sic] war when many pro-arab group even the groups which donate help to children of Ghaza disappered [sic]. and now they are closing some nasrallah-hezbollah groups with silly reports.? Shortly after their group page was destroyed, Snider and many of the original group members began to write to Facebook asking that they take action against the hackers. Snider says that Facebook received ?hundreds of messages and complaints? from group members, ?including some to high-ranking officials through connections.? However, ?Facebook,? Snider notes, ?seems entirely unaffected by this type of pressure, likely because many of its employees themselves are anti-Israel.? In response to this flood of complaints, Facebook staffers repeatedly sent back the same bland form letter: Hi _____, Thank you for reporting this potential abuse on our site. We will review the reported material and remove anything that violates our Terms of Use. If warranted, we will either warn or disable the user responsible. In the future, please feel free to use the ?Report? links located near most pieces of content on the site to report offensive material to Facebook. If you are not able to use the ?Report? links for any reason, please write to us at privacy at facebook.com with a link to the material and a description of the problem. We will then review this material and take appropriate action based on our Terms of Use. Rest assured that these reports will be kept confidential. Remember that you should also contact the authorities if you ever feel threatened by something you see on the site. Thanks for contacting Facebook, ________ User Operations Facebook Rather than acquiesce to Facebook?s indifference, Snider and others involved with the group began, he says, ?to resort to hunting the ?hackers? ourselves.? Snider and his partners in the group began an elaborate game of chase with the hackers, deactivating their accounts only to find them returning under different names and resorting to complex stratagems to avoid detection and deletion. This required Snider to search through the accounts of all 180,000 members in order to find the hackers, and even then it wasn?t always obvious who they were; finally he decided instead to form a new group with the same name as the old one. The new group went live on March 3, but so far has only 3,300 members. The old, hacked group retains 179,000 members ? most of whom joined the pro-Israel group and are unaware of how it has been compromised. Snider has asked all members to leave the old group and join the new one, but it isn?t easy to reach all of them. ?Unfortunately,? explains Snider, ?it is impossible for me to message all of my members, and with the original group page being constantly changed and restored as a result of the ?hackers,? it will be very difficult to attain all of the old members in the new group.? Todd Snider?s original goal was commendable. He began the ?I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel? group after he returned from an eleven-day trip to Israel for his Bar Mitzvah. ?I was encouraged, as a Jew,? he explained, ?to support our homeland and America?s best ally.? He noted that on Facebook, Israel and Jews had many detractors and few defenders; he started the group to show that pro-Israel and pro-Judaism voices did exist, and would not be silent. Yet now Facebook is effectively allowing such voices to be silenced, including Todd Snider?s, by not moving energetically against the Internet jihadists who destroyed his group. Facebook officials should allow Snider to recoup the original group page and recover the group members who originally signed up to show their support for Israel. To do anything less than this would not just be a disservice to Todd Snider and the 180,000 people who joined his group; it would be to acquiesce, in one corner of the Internet, to yet another small victory for the jihad. Part II to this story. Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of eight books, eleven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book, Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs, is available now from Regnery Publishing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/b818d3ab/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Thu Mar 19 22:05:41 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 03:05:41 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: <032020090240.21437.49C3021C00026346000053BD22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop><032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><032020090240.21437.49C3021C00026346000053BD22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1187976702-1237518215-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1627103010-@bxe1160.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Send all the lovers of Israel to the Synagogue Without Walls! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 02:40:30 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 22:14:04 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 03:14:04 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering In-Reply-To: <1187976702-1237518215-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1627103010-@bxe1160.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <870DE5C88A2A4FE3A3E84BA3119F3D72@bettylaptop><032020090109.29143.49C2ECC000034AF0000071D722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><032020090240.21437.49C3021C00026346000053BD22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <1187976702-1237518215-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1627103010-@bxe1160.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <032020090314.17773.49C309FC0003C4C20000456D22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Yes. As an alternative to Facebook. Beautiful! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Ross Nichols" : -------------- > Send all the lovers of Israel to the Synagogue Without Walls! > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 02:40:30 > To: > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Facebook Jiihad--Very sobering > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/fa288acd/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 22:29:18 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 03:29:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] RUPERT MURDOCH In-Reply-To: <720100.79009.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <032020090329.10952.49C30D8D0007729800002AC822243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks for this Cody. It is the most concise description of OUR problem I have ever read. Interesting that it never showed up on CNN or FOX. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from cody oneill : -------------- I am not Jewish but... Mar. 19, 2009 RUPERT MURDOCH , THE JERUSALEM POST Over the years, some of my wildest critics seem to have assumed I am Jewish. At the same time, some of my closest friends wish I were. So let me set the record straight: I live in New York. I have a wife who craves Chinese food. And people I trust tell me I practically invented the word "chutzpah." Ladies and gentleman, I am humbled by the honor you have given me - because this award speaks more to your good work than it does to mine. The American Jewish Committee started in response to the persecution of Jews in czarist Russia. And your response took a very American form: an organization that would speak up for those who could not speak for themselves. In the century since your founding, the American Jewish Committee has become one of the world's most influential organizations. Yet though your concerns begin with the safety and welfare of Jews, these concerns are anything but parochial. The reason for this is clear: You know that the best guarantee of the security of Jews anywhere is the freedom of people everywhere. Your good work has helped bring real and lasting changes to our world. Unfortunately, while some threats have been defeated, new ones have taken their place. And these new threats remind us the AJC's work is more vital than ever. In Europe, men and woman who bear the tattoos of concentration camps today look out on a continent where Jewish lives and Jewish property are under attack - and public debate is poisoned by an anti-Semitism we thought had been dispatched to history's dustbin. In Iran, we see a regime that backs Hizbullah and Hamas now on course to acquire a nuclear weapon. In India, we see Islamic terrorists single out the Mumbai Jewish Center in a well-planned and well-coordinated attack that looks like it could be a test run for similar attacks in similar cities around the world. MOST FUNDAMENTALLY, we see a growing assault on both the legitimacy and security of the State of Israel. This assault comes from people who make clear they have no intention of ever living side-by-side in peace with a Jewish state - no matter how many concessions Israel might make. The reason for this is also clear: These are men who cannot abide the idea of freedom, tolerance and democracy. They hate Israel for the same reasons they hate us. As I speak, the flashpoint is Gaza. For months now, Hamas has been raining down rockets on Israeli civilians. Like all terrorist attacks, the aim is to spread fear within free societies, and to paralyze its leaders. This Israel cannot afford. I do not need to tell anyone in this room that no sovereign nation can sit by while its civilian population is attacked. Hamas knows this better than we do. And Hamas understands something else as well: In the 21st century, when democratic states respond to terrorist attacks, they face two terrible handicaps. THE FIRST HANDICAP is military. It's true that Israel's conventional superiority means it could flatten Gaza if it wanted. But the Israel Defense Forces - unlike Hamas - are accountable to a democratically chosen government. No matter which party is in the majority, every Israeli government knows it will be held accountable by its people and by the world for the lives that are lost because of its decisions. That's true for lives of innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire. And it's also true for the Israeli soldiers who may lose their lives defending their people. In this kind of war, Hamas does not need to defeat Israel militarily to win a big victory. In fact, Hamas knows that in some ways, dead Palestinians serve its purposes even better than dead Israelis. In the West we look at this and say, "It makes no sense." But it does make sense. If you are committed to Israel's destruction, and if you believe that dead Palestinians help you score a propaganda victory, you do things like launch rockets from a Palestinian schoolyard. This ensures that when the Israelis do respond, it will likely lead to the death of an innocent Palestinian - no matter how many precautions Israeli soldiers take. Hamas gets away with this, moreover, because it does not rule Gaza by the consent of those it claims to represent. It rules by fear and intimidation. It is accountable to no one but itself. This is the chilling logic of Gaza. And it helps explain why even a strong military power like Israel can find itself at a disadvantage on the ground. THE SECOND HANDICAP for Israel is the global media war. For Hamas, the images of Palestinian suffering - of people losing their homes, of parents mourning their dead children, of tanks rolling through the streets - create sympathy for its cause. In a battle marked by street to street fighting, the death of innocents is all but inevitable. That is also true of Gaza. And these deaths have led some to call for Israel to be charged with war crimes by an international tribunal. But I am curious: Why do we never hear calls for Hamas leaders to be charged with war crimes? Why, for example, do we hear no calls for human rights investigations into Hamas gunmen using Palestinian children as human shields? Why so few stories on the reports of Hamas assassins going to hospitals to hunt down their fellow Palestinians? And where are the international human rights groups demanding that Hamas stop blurring the most fundamental line in warfare: the distinction between civilian and combatant? I suspect the answer has to do with the same grim logic that leads Hamas to provoke a military battle it knows it cannot win. Whether Israel is ever found guilty of any war crime hardly matters. Hamas gets a propaganda win simply by having the charge made often and loudly enough. In this, Israel finds itself in much the same position the United States found itself in Iraq before the surge. There, al-Qaida realized that it was in its interests to provoke sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni - no matter what the cost to innocent Iraqis. That is the nature of terror. And what we are seeing in Gaza is just one front in this much larger war. IN THE WEST, we are used to thinking that Israel cannot survive without the help of Europe and the United States. Tonight I say to you: Maybe we should start wondering whether we in Europe and the United States can survive if we allow the terrorists to succeed in Israel. In this new century, the "West" is no longer a matter of geography. The West is defined by societies committed to freedom and democracy. That at least is how the terrorists see it. And if we are serious about meeting this challenge, we would expand the only military alliance committed to the defense of the West to include those on the front lines of this war. That means bringing countries such as Israel into NATO. My friends, I do not pretend to have all the answers to Gaza this evening. But I do know this: The free world makes a terrible mistake if we deceive ourselves into thinking this is not our fight. In the end, the Israeli people are fighting the same enemy we are: cold-blooded killers who reject peace, who reject freedom and who rule by the suicide vest, the car bomb and the human shield. Against such an enemy, I will not second-guess the decisions of a free Israel defending her citizens. And I would ask all those who support peace and freedom to do the same. Adapted from a March 4 speech to the American Jewish Committee by the chairman and CEO of News Corporation on receiving its National Human Relations Award. This article can also be read at http://www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1237392665709&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull [ Back to the Article ] Copyright 1995- 2009 The Jerusalem Post - http://www.jpost.com/ - "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/0cce8e00/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 22:35:38 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 03:35:38 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] You've got to know what others are discussing In-Reply-To: <855590370903191327veb2a724we7b7ea6fc819d384@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <032020090335.19932.49C30F09000841D600004DDC22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> AAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Shalom L'Kulam, A DISCLAIMER: I do NOT support, or agree with giving away ANY part of Eretz Yisrael at all; ever - for ANY reason. But I wanted to share this article, because I believe this proposal, or variations of it, are likely to keep coming up. It's a "head's up" - NOT my view. Hanoch Avigdor Lieberman?s Bright Idea Opinion By Sergio DellaPergola Published March 18, 2009, issue of March 27, 2009. Avigdor Lieberman?s electoral success has been a cause of alarm in Israel and abroad. Lieberman?s critics are justifiably concerned by his often inflammatory rhetoric, as well as his demand that the right to vote be made contingent upon citizens taking a loyalty oath ? a policy totally unacceptable in a democratic society. One of Lieberman?s more controversial proposals is his call to surrender Israeli Arab population centers to eventual Palestinian sovereignty as part of a land swap. Within the framework of an eventual Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank, he advocates annexing major Israeli settlement blocs and in exchange handing over to the Palestinians Israel?s Triangle region, an almost entirely Arab-populated strip of land just inside the 1967 Green Line, extending from the city of Umm al-Fahm in the north down to Kafr Qassem in the south. Many view this proposal as part and parcel of what they see as Lieberman?s xenophobic agenda. But his critics should not be so quick to write off this idea simply because of the political leanings of its most prominent supporter. Such a land swap may even be necessary to ensure Israel?s long-term political and demographic stability. While Lieberman is often labeled a far-rightist, the notion of swapping sovereignty over the Triangle is not a far-right idea. On the left, former deputy defense minister Ephraim Sneh, a committed dove and until recently a prominent member of the Labor Party, has been an advocate of this very notion. And in 2002 Ehud Barak said that ?such an exchange makes demographic sense and is not inconceivable? (though he cautioned that it ?could only be done by agreement?). Indeed, underlying this idea is a principle that has long been championed by the left and is today supported by a majority of Israelis: the concept of two states for two peoples. Related Articles Washington Braces To Greet Lieberman as Foreign Minister Jewish Leaders Largely Silent on Lieberman?s Role In Government Confronting Our Demagogue Most Israelis know that Israel must withdraw from the West Bank if it is to remain both a Jewish and a democratic state. But even if Israel does so, the underlying demographic dynamic will continue to yield a constant erosion of Israel?s Jewish majority. In 2008, Arabs comprised 21% of the inhabitants of Israel (including East Jerusalem but not West Bank Palestinians). Because of higher Arab fertility rates, however, 25% of all births in Israel are to Arab families. Moreover, because of a much younger age composition, Arabs account for only 10% of all deaths in Israel. Thus, in 2008, excluding international migration, 30% of Israel?s natural population increase was in the Arab sector. The present trend generates a steady growth of the Arab share of Israel?s population. Israel?s Arab population is expected to reach 23% in 2020 and 27% in 2050, while the share of Arabs among children younger than 15 will likely be 30% by 2020. These numbers point toward a bi-national state, not to the Jewish state that most Israelis prefer. With two small adjustments to the Green Line, however, this demographic outlook can be radically transformed. The Triangle region has an Arab population of some 250,000; another 250,000 Arabs reside in East Jerusalem. Together these two areas cover about 3% of Israel?s territory but are home to more than a third of Israel?s 1.4 million Arabs. By redrawing the frontier between Israel and the West Bank to place the Triangle and East Jerusalem?s Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian control, the Jewish proportion of the Israeli population would increase from the current 79% to 87%. Under this scenario, the Jewish share of the population would remain well above 80% into the 2030s and beyond. Concern about Israel?s demographic composition would be postponed to a distant future, by which time the respective growth rates of the Jewish and Arab populations may well have converged. True, this proposal has not been greeted warmly by the Triangle?s Arab residents. Israeli Arabs know that becoming citizens of a Palestinian state would involve a trade-off: Gains in the realm of national identity would likely be accompanied by losses in the areas of civil liberties, democratic rights and standard of living. As a result, for many Arabs remaining Israeli citizens while fighting for a separate identity within Israel ? and, for some, demanding an alteration of the core identity of the Jewish state ? seems like a better option. But it is also a recipe for heightened tensions and ongoing strife within Israeli society. It is worth remembering that the text of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, adopted on November 29, 1947, called for the partition of British Mandate Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state ? not an Israeli state and a Palestinian state. This solution was intended to solve a complicated conflict by recognizing the relevance and legitimacy of two distinct identities. Division along ethno-religious lines, possibly followed by economic cooperation, was the right solution back in 1947, and it still might be the only viable one now. Sergio DellaPergola holds the Shlomo Argov Chair on Israel-Diaspora Relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and is a senior fellow at the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute. The views expressed in this article are his own. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/e43b22d4/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 06:53:36 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 07:53:36 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hi John, Hanoch brought up the point that it is best to agree that we disagree and I concurred with that.So far, I've come to the conclusion that this site is one of the best of its kind on the Net and I've been involved in dozens. Subject matter in 99.99% of the cases is extremely relevant an the other .01% is just plain relevant.I see people that are fervent in seeking Hashem and are charged with their convictions to change their lives for the better in doing so. If you still want me to answer the questions you posed in your post to Paul and I, then email to me at my AOL account and I will reply.Just copy and paste from your previous post and send to _Hezakiah4 at aol.com_ (mailto:Hezakiah4 at aol.com) . I won't post the answers here for the sake of shalom bayit (peace in the house). I use that term because The Synagogue without Walls is our house. Peace,happiness and Hashem's blessings to all,Hez **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/be376f27/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Fri Mar 20 10:01:18 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:01:18 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] some thoughts on the 'Ephraimite' issue Message-ID: Shalom All, (sorry, this is long....but for those who have time, here are some of my thoughts) - In our day we are seeing an unprecedented turning of many to the God, Faith, Torah and, if possible, the Land of Israel. For that, we can all say Baruch HaShem! This initial wakening can be a messy process. Mostly these people are beginning to see that what they have been taught from birth is 'naught but lies and vanity'. Having gone through the experience myself, I understand the process. It begins with an unexpected beam of light that highlights an aspect of Abrahamic faith - and from that moment on, nothing is the same. This can happen to people who for years have genuinely been seeking HaShem, having gone from church to conference to assembly to fellowship...., seeking to find that which/Whom our soul desires. But the fox likes to guard the henhouse, and truth is barred entry. HaShem promised that those who seek Him with all their heart would find Him, and so.... Suddenly, a truth breaks forth - for many it is 7th day Sabbath - this wonderful gift and teaching of HaShem is elementary for our Jewish brothers - but for us coming out of centuries of Greco/Roman/Egyptian/Babylonian brainwashing, it is/was quite a life altering step. (Ex. 16:4 ...'that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not'...) Seeking to obey this command can immediately put us at odds with everyone and everything we knew. Jobs, family activities, traditions, sports etc are all reshuffled. Yet we embrace it with joy and try and learn all we can about it. Without teachers and proper instruction, we even try and teach each other (sometimes a case of the blind leading the blind, lol! - yet with sincerity). Eventually we turn to our elder brother, the Jewish people - those who are willing to meet with us where we are at and share the wonderful knowledge of Torah which they have guarded with their lives while we have been groveling around the pigsty. Grasping at their tzitzit, (where available), we drink up the teachings like water in a parched land. Quickly we discover that our family and friends think we are crazy, and then begins the 'concerned looks', the counseling, the quiet disassociation, and even the shunning. For many the turmoil can be intense, with very little encouragement and much opposition. Various camps are formed as people seek like-minded fellowship. Most of these 'encampments'/groups of people are at various stages of the journey out of Egypt, so to speak. - Not unlike the Israelites of old, we must take the same journey through the wilderness, learn the same lessons, experience and overcome the same tribulations and trials, which will result in a gradual shedding of the old ways. Did the children of Israel and the mixed multitude murmur and complain in the desert; find fault with Moses; long for the pleasures of Egypt; face Amalek who quickly tried to kill off the weak and weary; build a golden calf; make an idol of the bronze serpent?.....etc Our personal journey is similar, and maybe even more difficult with the additional 2000 years of false teaching weighing us down. Slowly the transformation starts happening. We begin to realise that Torah is life, and that 'Nehushtan' has to go. It takes time, but HaShem is merciful and gracious and long-suffering, blessed be His Name! Deut 29:9-14 'All of you have come to stand today in the presence of YHVH your God - your leaders, your tribal chiefs, your elders and your officials, all the men of Israel, your little children, your wives, even resident foreigners who are in amongst your camps, from those who chop your wood to those who draw your water - to enter into a covenant of YHVH your God, and into an oath which YHVH your God is making with you today, in order to confirm you today as His people, that he may be your God just as he promised you and just as he swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you alone, but both with those who are standing here with us today in the presence of YHVH our God, and with those who are not here with us today. Be it Noachides, Ephraimites or those called to conversion, ... I see it as: "Ho, everyone who is thirsty, let him come to the waters...". Later Isaiah says: "Let not the *foreigner who has bound himself to YHVH say, God will surely exclude me from His people." ...'for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says YHVH, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, "I will gather yet others to him, besides those already gathered"... What did Rabbi Yehoshua mean when he said that he came only for 'the lost sheep of the House of Israel'? He said that only the sick needed a physician. This righteous man came with a message: "Repent, for the Kingdom/Rulership of Heaven is at hand". His name also bore a message - (Yehoshua - 'YHVH will save'). The message and messenger were shut down by a handful of people who handed him over to the Romans. After rabbi Yehoshua was murdered, his brother Yaacov led and taught the same message - thousands responded to the message - they became 'zealous for the Torah' - until Yaacov was also killed. Soon after that, the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem taken by the Romans. After the fleeing and scattering into the wilderness, the message of Yehoshua and his brother, Yaacov haTsadik, began to change as the Hellenizing parties infiltrated and took over. His followers were eventually eliminated or assimilated. Until now.... We are still trying to figure out just what happened. We know that 2000 years of human history have been given to the influence of this man (for good and bad). Was he the test, to see if Israel would go after 'gods whom they or their fathers had not know'? The 'leaven in the loaf' which was hid until the whole loaf was leavened? We do know that he was 'captured' by the enemies of truth, given another name, clothed in Roman garb, declared to be 'god' in the flesh/god-man, and his message so reworked that it was unrecognizable. In our day, his name, message, person and reputation is being redeemed from the gates of Rome. Many cannot deny that it is through his call, however faintly it came through, 'at the hands of Esau', so to speak, that we have been brought to seek the One God of Israel, hearing as it were, the 'voice of Yaacov'. It is wonderful that all over the world there are people coming together, seeking the way to Zion. I appreciate this 'Synagogue without Walls' and all who find themselves on 'the way', no matter what label they take or are given. Shabbat Shalom! Sharon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/189717ba/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 10:16:28 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:16:28 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] some thoughts on the 'Ephraimite' issue Message-ID: I agree with some points and not others,but all in all, a really wonderful post that reads like it's straight from the heart.Yes, the Sabbath can tough on one not accustomed to observing it. Being Orthodox and observing all the days that are also like the Sabbath,where one can't work,has cost me employment more than a few times in the past. Yasher koach, Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] some thoughts on the 'Ephraimite' issue Date: 3/20/2009 11:01:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _shdennis at rogers.com_ (mailto:shdennis at rogers.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom All, (sorry, this is long....but for those who have time, here are some of my thoughts) - In our day we are seeing an unprecedented turning of many to the God, Faith, Torah and, if possible, the Land of Israel. For that, we can all say Baruch HaShem! This initial wakening can be a messy process. Mostly these people are beginning to see that what they have been taught from birth is 'naught but lies and vanity'. Having gone through the experience myself, I understand the process. It begins with an unexpected beam of light that highlights an aspect of Abrahamic faith - and from that moment on, nothing is the same. This can happen to people who for years have genuinely been seeking HaShem, having gone from church to conference to assembly to fellowship...., seeking to find that which/Whom our soul desires. But the fox likes to guard the henhouse, and truth is barred entry. HaShem promised that those who seek Him with all their heart would find Him, and so.... Suddenly, a truth breaks forth - for many it is 7th day Sabbath - this wonderful gift and teaching of HaShem is elementary for our Jewish brothers - but for us coming out of centuries of Greco/Roman/Egyptian/Babylonian brainwashing, it is/was quite a life altering step. (Ex. 16:4 ...'that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not'...) Seeking to obey this command can immediately put us at odds with everyone and everything we knew. Jobs, family activities, traditions, sports etc are all reshuffled. Yet we embrace it with joy and try and learn all we can about it. Without teachers and proper instruction, we even try and teach each other (sometimes a case of the blind leading the blind, lol! - yet with sincerity). Eventually we turn to our elder brother, the Jewish people - those who are willing to meet with us where we are at and share the wonderful knowledge of Torah which they have guarded with their lives while we have been groveling around the pigsty. Grasping at their tzitzit, (where available), we drink up the teachings like water in a parched land. Quickly we discover that our family and friends think we are crazy, and then begins the 'concerned looks', the counseling, the quiet disassociation, and even the shunning. For many the turmoil can be intense, with very little encouragement and much opposition. Various camps are formed as people seek like-minded fellowship. Most of these 'encampments'/groups of people are at various stages of the journey out of Egypt, so to speak. - Not unlike the Israelites of old, we must take the same journey through the wilderness, learn the same lessons, experience and overcome the same tribulations and trials, which will result in a gradual shedding of the old ways. Did the children of Israel and the mixed multitude murmur and complain in the desert; find fault with Moses; long for the pleasures of Egypt; face Amalek who quickly tried to kill off the weak and weary; build a golden calf; make an idol of the bronze serpent?.....etc Our personal journey is similar, and maybe even more difficult with the additional 2000 years of false teaching weighing us down. Slowly the transformation starts happening. We begin to realise that Torah is life, and that 'Nehushtan' has to go. It takes time, but HaShem is merciful and gracious and long-suffering, blessed be His Name! Deut 29:9-14 'All of you have come to stand today in the presence of YHVH your God ? your leaders, your tribal chiefs, your elders and your officials, all the men of Israel, your little children, your wives, even resident foreigners who are in amongst your camps, from those who chop your wood to those who draw your water ? to enter into a covenant of YHVH your God, and into an oath which YHVH your God is making with you today, in order to confirm you today as His people, that he may be your God just as he promised you and just as he swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you alone, but both with those who are standing here with us today in the presence of YHVH our God, and with those who are not here with us today. Be it Noachides, Ephraimites or those called to conversion, ... I see it as: "Ho, everyone who is thirsty, let him come to the waters...". Later Isaiah says: "Let not the *foreigner who has bound himself to YHVH say, God will surely exclude me from His people." ...'for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says YHVH, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, "I will gather yet others to him, besides those already gathered"... What did Rabbi Yehoshua mean when he said that he came only for 'the lost sheep of the House of Israel'? He said that only the sick needed a physician. This righteous man came with a message: "Repent, for the Kingdom/Rulership of Heaven is at hand". His name also bore a message - (Yehoshua - 'YHVH will save'). The message and messenger were shut down by a handful of people who handed him over to the Romans. After rabbi Yehoshua was murdered, his brother Yaacov led and taught the same message - thousands responded to the message - they became 'zealous for the Torah' - until Yaacov was also killed. Soon after that, the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem taken by the Romans. After the fleeing and scattering into the wilderness, the message of Yehoshua and his brother, Yaacov haTsadik, began to change as the Hellenizing parties infiltrated and took over. His followers were eventually eliminated or assimilated. Until now.... We are still trying to figure out just what happened. We know that 2000 years of human history have been given to the influence of this man (for good and bad). Was he the test, to see if Israel would go after 'gods whom they or their fathers had not know'? The 'leaven in the loaf' which was hid until the whole loaf was leavened? We do know that he was 'captured' by the enemies of truth, given another name, clothed in Roman garb, declared to be 'god' in the flesh/god-man, and his message so reworked that it was unrecognizable. In our day, his name, message, person and reputation is being redeemed from the gates of Rome. Many cannot deny that it is through his call, however faintly it came through, 'at the hands of Esau', so to speak, that we have been brought to seek the One God of Israel, hearing as it were, the 'voice of Yaacov'. It is wonderful that all over the world there are people coming together, seeking the way to Zion. I appreciate this 'Synagogue without Walls' and all who find themselves on 'the way', no matter what label they take or are given. Shabbat Shalom! Sharon _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/7674e8cc/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 10:20:43 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <373802.62740.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential?Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: ? That's really interesting since? even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? ? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his?coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. ? If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans is Messiah,?feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant.? Have a nice day,Hez ? ? ? ? ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli? is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul?? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/df0fc96c/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 10:53:34 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:53:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/88124fd7/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 12:13:46 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years Message-ID: <901040.67266.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ?Wishful Thinking? CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:44:41 GMT http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=88491§ionid=351020202 International lawyer Franklin Lamb A study conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has cast doubt over Israel's survival beyond the next 20 years. The CIA report predicts "an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region." The study, which has been made available only to a certain number of individuals, further forecasts the return of all Palestinian refugees to the occupied territories, and the exodus of two million Israeli - who would move to the US in the next fifteen years. "There is over 500,000 Israelis with American passports and more than 300,000 living in the area of just California," International lawyer Franklin Lamb said in an interview with Press TV on Friday, adding that those who do not have American or western passport, have already applied for them. "So I think the handwriting at least among the public in Israel is on the wall...[which] suggests history will reject the colonial enterprise sooner or later," Lamb stressed. He said CIA, in its report, alludes to the unexpectedly quick fall of the apartheid government in South Africa and recalls the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, suggesting the end to the dream of an 'Israeli land' would happen 'way sooner' than later. The study further predicts the return of over one and a half million Israelis to Russia and other parts of Europe, and denotes a decline in Israeli births whereas a rise in the Palestinian population. Lamb said given the Israeli conduct toward the Palestinians and the Gaza strip in particular, the American public -- which has been voicing its protest against Tel Aviv's measures in the last 25 years -- may 'not take it anymore'. Some members of the US Senate Intelligence Committee have been informed of the report. MRS/MMN "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/a2b428bd/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 12:19:25 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <381952.16292.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Hez, Could you please enumerate exactly what you?consider to be the "mythos surrounding the man"? Toda, Tracy ________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:53:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style?miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously,? a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential?Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul ? That's really interesting since? even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his?coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans is Messiah,?feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant.? Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli? is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul?? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ In reference to your comment: ________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/beeb2230/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Mar 20 12:29:18 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:29:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <042701c9a981$6a824f50$3f86edf0$@com> Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the "Christian machine", millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/50c089c9/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 12:56:25 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:56:25 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hi Tracy, Exactly what I said,Trace, " the Midrashic style miracle stories". Things like walking on water, healing cripples, healing the blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some mention in the Talmud. There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think that with all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? There isn't even a mention of anything about him. Contrary to many Christians' thinking, the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus. Some have sought to link him with a Yeshua Hanotzri, who is said to have practiced magic and sought to lead Israel astray (Sotah 47A and Sanhedrin 107B). But a foremost historian of the rabbinate, the twelfth century Abraham ibn Daud, wrote (Sefer Ha-Kabbalah, Jewish Publication Society Edition, p. 15) that we possess a true tradition (Kabalat Emet) that this Yeshua Hanotzri lived during the reign of Alexander Yannai (died 76 B.C.E.), and had been a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, thus making it impossible for him to have been the founder of Christianity. This tradition is also given by Nahmanides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p. 306). R. Jehiel Heilprin, the seventeenth century rabbinic historian, lists two Yeshua Hanotzris, the first being the earlier controversial disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah who lived during Yannai's reign, and the second as the founder of Christianity (Seder Hadorot, pp. 147, 148 and 15 1). Some have tried to link Jesus with a magician named Ben Stada, but R. Jacob Tam-the eminent Tosafist and grandson of Rashi-dismissed this (Shabbat 104B), as he had lived during the second century. This same R. Jacob Tam recorded (Sanhedrin 63B and Bekhorot 2B) that Trinitarianism is permitted to Gentiles, even though it is considered an idolatrous act if practiced by a Jew. Unfortunately, many people-and especially those possessing an anti-semitic frame of mind-have had a field-day with making the wrong assumptions about the Talmud. One can only guess at how many pogroms and persecutions were instigated against Jews because of this misinterpretation. Such actions have not only caused terrible harm to innocent men, women and children, but also maligned the memory of the man among his own people . ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:23:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _tposborne77 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:tposborne77 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hello Hez, Could you please enumerate exactly what you consider to be the "mythos surrounding the man"? Toda, Tracy ____________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:53:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/65a83ccf/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:00:05 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:00:05 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for Shabbat - Message-ID: <855590370903201100i3b49b20bob4aa6049504656d4@mail.gmail.com> Just saw this in an email - Shabbat Shalom! * Hanoch* *?Intolerance lies at the core of evil. Not the intolerance that results from any threat or danger. But intolerance of another being who dares to exist. Intolerance without cause. It is so deep within us, because every human being secretly desires the entire universe to himself. Our only way out is to learn compassion without cause. To care for each other simple because that 'other' exists.?* ** *- Rebbe Menachem Mendle* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/065a6174/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:03:52 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:03:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] some thoughts on the 'Ephraimite' issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well said, Sharon. Todah Rabbah! This Rabbi (or "traveling Pharasaic teacher") did help us to love and follow HaShem. I would say that trying to emulate him eventually caused me to leave behind the very system that promoted him to godhood while it turned on his Jewish brothers. I too am of the opinion that it really doesn't matter WHO Messiah is. As Hanoch said, "....that's a moot point." What truly matters is that we keep our eyes on HaShem and learn his ways, while remembering our teacher's name for a blessing, "Tzadik L'veracha." I really appreciated this post of yours. Avigail From: Stephen & Sharon Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:01 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] some thoughts on the 'Ephraimite' issue Shalom All, (sorry, this is long....but for those who have time, here are some of my thoughts) - In our day we are seeing an unprecedented turning of many to the God, Faith, Torah and, if possible, the Land of Israel. For that, we can all say Baruch HaShem! This initial wakening can be a messy process. Mostly these people are beginning to see that what they have been taught from birth is 'naught but lies and vanity'. Having gone through the experience myself, I understand the process. It begins with an unexpected beam of light that highlights an aspect of Abrahamic faith - and from that moment on, nothing is the same. This can happen to people who for years have genuinely been seeking HaShem, having gone from church to conference to assembly to fellowship...., seeking to find that which/Whom our soul desires. But the fox likes to guard the henhouse, and truth is barred entry. HaShem promised that those who seek Him with all their heart would find Him, and so.... Suddenly, a truth breaks forth - for many it is 7th day Sabbath - this wonderful gift and teaching of HaShem is elementary for our Jewish brothers - but for us coming out of centuries of Greco/Roman/Egyptian/Babylonian brainwashing, it is/was quite a life altering step. (Ex. 16:4 ...'that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not'...) Seeking to obey this command can immediately put us at odds with everyone and everything we knew. Jobs, family activities, traditions, sports etc are all reshuffled. Yet we embrace it with joy and try and learn all we can about it. Without teachers and proper instruction, we even try and teach each other (sometimes a case of the blind leading the blind, lol! - yet with sincerity). Eventually we turn to our elder brother, the Jewish people - those who are willing to meet with us where we are at and share the wonderful knowledge of Torah which they have guarded with their lives while we have been groveling around the pigsty. Grasping at their tzitzit, (where available), we drink up the teachings like water in a parched land. Quickly we discover that our family and friends think we are crazy, and then begins the 'concerned looks', the counseling, the quiet disassociation, and even the shunning. For many the turmoil can be intense, with very little encouragement and much opposition. Various camps are formed as people seek like-minded fellowship. Most of these 'encampments'/groups of people are at various stages of the journey out of Egypt, so to speak. - Not unlike the Israelites of old, we must take the same journey through the wilderness, learn the same lessons, experience and overcome the same tribulations and trials, which will result in a gradual shedding of the old ways. Did the children of Israel and the mixed multitude murmur and complain in the desert; find fault with Moses; long for the pleasures of Egypt; face Amalek who quickly tried to kill off the weak and weary; build a golden calf; make an idol of the bronze serpent?.....etc Our personal journey is similar, and maybe even more difficult with the additional 2000 years of false teaching weighing us down. Slowly the transformation starts happening. We begin to realise that Torah is life, and that 'Nehushtan' has to go. It takes time, but HaShem is merciful and gracious and long-suffering, blessed be His Name! Deut 29:9-14 'All of you have come to stand today in the presence of YHVH your God - your leaders, your tribal chiefs, your elders and your officials, all the men of Israel, your little children, your wives, even resident foreigners who are in amongst your camps, from those who chop your wood to those who draw your water - to enter into a covenant of YHVH your God, and into an oath which YHVH your God is making with you today, in order to confirm you today as His people, that he may be your God just as he promised you and just as he swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you alone, but both with those who are standing here with us today in the presence of YHVH our God, and with those who are not here with us today. Be it Noachides, Ephraimites or those called to conversion, ... I see it as: "Ho, everyone who is thirsty, let him come to the waters...". Later Isaiah says: "Let not the *foreigner who has bound himself to YHVH say, God will surely exclude me from His people." ...'for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says YHVH, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, "I will gather yet others to him, besides those already gathered"... What did Rabbi Yehoshua mean when he said that he came only for 'the lost sheep of the House of Israel'? He said that only the sick needed a physician. This righteous man came with a message: "Repent, for the Kingdom/Rulership of Heaven is at hand". His name also bore a message - (Yehoshua - 'YHVH will save'). The message and messenger were shut down by a handful of people who handed him over to the Romans. After rabbi Yehoshua was murdered, his brother Yaacov led and taught the same message - thousands responded to the message - they became 'zealous for the Torah' - until Yaacov was also killed. Soon after that, the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem taken by the Romans. After the fleeing and scattering into the wilderness, the message of Yehoshua and his brother, Yaacov haTsadik, began to change as the Hellenizing parties infiltrated and took over. His followers were eventually eliminated or assimilated. Until now.... We are still trying to figure out just what happened. We know that 2000 years of human history have been given to the influence of this man (for good and bad). Was he the test, to see if Israel would go after 'gods whom they or their fathers had not know'? The 'leaven in the loaf' which was hid until the whole loaf was leavened? We do know that he was 'captured' by the enemies of truth, given another name, clothed in Roman garb, declared to be 'god' in the flesh/god-man, and his message so reworked that it was unrecognizable. In our day, his name, message, person and reputation is being redeemed from the gates of Rome. Many cannot deny that it is through his call, however faintly it came through, 'at the hands of Esau', so to speak, that we have been brought to seek the One God of Israel, hearing as it were, the 'voice of Yaacov'. It is wonderful that all over the world there are people coming together, seeking the way to Zion. I appreciate this 'Synagogue without Walls' and all who find themselves on 'the way', no matter what label they take or are given. Shabbat Shalom! Sharon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/132093e1/attachment.html From webhulon at msn.com Fri Mar 20 13:12:02 2009 From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:12:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shalom, Technically Moshe was not a Jew. He was a Levite. Web From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:53:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/3eaed28d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 13:12:34 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:12:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hi Patty, nice "seeing" you again. Ignoring the fact of mistranslations and the changing of grammatical tenses to make it fit the Greek text, you could almost say everyone has a rough translation of the Torah. It was Wycliffe that produced the first full text bible so the common man could read it. Before that,the church forbade the common man from reading it and it was in Greek and Latin.Fact is,the church was so angry about it, that almost, I believe it said, 30 years after Wycliffe died, they dug up his bones,convicted him of heresy and burned his remains.His bibles were hand written so it wasn't like everyone had access to them,only the rich who could afford books.1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. With the invention of the printing press,came the Gutenberg bible and provided more access1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin. Then you had these: 1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language. 1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha). 1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books). 1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books). If the church had had its way,you would still be learning scripture from the cannons. If it wasn't for the men above,you wouldn't be reading it at all. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:30:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the ?Christian machine?, millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/4b584816/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 13:18:07 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:18:07 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Technically Moses was a member of one of the 12 tribes of Israel, descendants of the 12 sons of Jacob and by present day terminology the world labels for my people,that would make him a Jew. have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:12:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _webhulon at msn.com_ (mailto:webhulon at msn.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom, Technically Moshe was not a Jew. He was a Levite. Web ____________________________________ From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:53:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . ____________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. _Check it out._ (http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009) = _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/639a4b58/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Mar 20 13:21:03 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:21:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Iran Alert Website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <047c01c9a988$a2c22a50$e8467ef0$@com> www.iranalert.org features the latest news, analysis and commentary on the Iranian nuclear threat as well as campaigns for promoting terror-free investment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/315a7c69/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 13:22:50 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:22:50 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for Shabbat - Message-ID: Great thought,Hanoch. So I respectfully add these thoughts in the same line.Have a gut Shabbos, Hez The Covenant of Fellowship entered in by the disciples of Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Rimanov: Bab Metzia 58 Resolved from words of scolding and denunciation,which our Holy Rabbi has barred as transgressing the law against murder. Siach Sarfei Kodesh:The verse in Psalms81:8:I answered thee in the secret place of thunder;I proved thee at the waters of Meribah teaches us that the L-rd will answer the prayer of the man who keeps his anger secret,though highly provoked by the other man's quarrelsomeness. (Note:Meribeh=Quarrelsomeness) Derehk Emunah U-Maaseh Rav: The angry man fills his mouth with live coals and with needles,sharp and hard.For each angry word he utters,he deserves to be banished from holiness in shame and disgrace,and to suffer grievously until his soul is purified from its blemishes.Every man must be the master of his mouth. ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] Quote for Shabbat - Date: 3/20/2009 2:00:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _youngbarzel at gmail.com_ (mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Just saw this in an email - Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch ?Intolerance lies at the core of evil. Not the intolerance that results from any threat or danger. But intolerance of another being who dares to exist. Intolerance without cause. It is so deep within us, because every human being secretly desires the entire universe to himself. Our only way out is to learn compassion without cause. To care for each other simple because that 'other' exists.? - Rebbe Menachem Mendle _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/08a804d9/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:27:02 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:27:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years In-Reply-To: <901040.67266.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <901040.67266.qm@web37308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oddly this organization is known as an "INTELLIGENCE" agency?????? From: cody oneill Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years Wishful Thinking? CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:44:41 GMT http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=88491§ionid=351020202 International lawyer Franklin Lamb A study conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has cast doubt over Israel's survival beyond the next 20 years. The CIA report predicts "an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region." The study, which has been made available only to a certain number of individuals, further forecasts the return of all Palestinian refugees to the occupied territories, and the exodus of two million Israeli - who would move to the US in the next fifteen years. "There is over 500,000 Israelis with American passports and more than 300,000 living in the area of just California," International lawyer Franklin Lamb said in an interview with Press TV on Friday, adding that those who do not have American or western passport, have already applied for them. "So I think the handwriting at least among the public in Israel is on the wall...[which] suggests history will reject the colonial enterprise sooner or later," Lamb stressed. He said CIA, in its report, alludes to the unexpectedly quick fall of the apartheid government in South Africa and recalls the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, suggesting the end to the dream of an 'Israeli land' would happen 'way sooner' than later. The study further predicts the return of over one and a half million Israelis to Russia and other parts of Europe, and denotes a decline in Israeli births whereas a rise in the Palestinian population. Lamb said given the Israeli conduct toward the Palestinians and the Gaza strip in particular, the American public -- which has been voicing its protest against Tel Aviv's measures in the last 25 years -- may 'not take it anymore'. Some members of the US Senate Intelligence Committee have been informed of the report. MRS/MMN "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/908e4dc2/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Mar 20 13:27:18 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:27:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <049601c9a989$82403730$86c0a590$@com> Hi Hez, nice to ?see? you too! Well, I see the church as more of a vehicle for carrying the Truth, in a similar way that the mythological stories were a way of conveying Truth. What happened is that people (mostly the church leaders) worshipped the myth and ignored the Truth. Now as to the importance of this in getting the Torah in our homes, do you think there are many non-Jews today who have a Torah in their homes WITHOUT the NT attached to it? Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Patty, nice "seeing" you again. Ignoring the fact of mistranslations and the changing of grammatical tenses to make it fit the Greek text, you could almost say everyone has a rough translation of the Torah. It was Wycliffe that produced the first full text bible so the common man could read it. Before that,the church forbade the common man from reading it and it was in Greek and Latin.Fact is,the church was so angry about it, that almost, I believe it said, 30 years after Wycliffe died, they dug up his bones,convicted him of heresy and burned his remains.His bibles were hand written so it wasn't like everyone had access to them,only the rich who could afford books.1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. With the invention of the printing press,came the Gutenberg bible and provided more access1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin. Then you had these: 1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language. 1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha). 1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books). 1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books). If the church had had its way,you would still be learning scripture from the cannons. If it wasn't for the men above,you wouldn't be reading it at all. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:30:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the ?Christian machine?, millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/15f514ba/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 13:29:13 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <841716.68117.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Hezakiah, I have attempted to lay out your arguments in outline form. Would you say that I have I done this correctly?? (I)? "the Midrashic style?miracle stories". Things like walking on water, healing cripples, healing the ??? ??? ??? blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. ??????? a) If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some ??? ??? ??? mention in the Talmud. ??? ??? ??? 1) There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think that with ??? ??? ??? ??? all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? ??? ??? ??? ??? a) There isn't even a mention of anything about him. (II)? "the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus" ??? ??? a) the first?"Yeshua Hanotzri" could not have been him according to Nachmanides ??? ??? b) the second "Yeshua HaNotzri" is the founder of Christianity according to R. Jehiel Heilprin ??? ??? c) linking the real Yeshua with Ben Stada has dismissed by eminent R. Jacob Tam ??? ??? d) the persecution of Jews caused by misinterpreting The Talmud (III)? All this has "also maligned the memory of the?man among his own people" Todda Rabbah, Tracy ________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:56:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Tracy, ???? Exactly what I said,Trace, " the Midrashic style?miracle stories". Things like walking on water, healing cripples, healing the blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some mention in the Talmud. There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think that with all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? There isn't even a mention of anything about him. Contrary to many Christians' thinking, the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus.? Some have sought to link him with a Yeshua Hanotzri, who is said to have practiced magic and sought to lead Israel astray (Sotah 47A and Sanhedrin 107B). But a foremost historian of the rabbinate, the twelfth century Abraham ibn Daud, wrote (Sefer Ha-Kabbalah, Jewish Publication Society Edition, p. 15) that we possess a true tradition (Kabalat Emet) that this Yeshua Hanotzri lived during the reign of Alexander Yannai (died 76 B.C.E.), and had been a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, thus making it impossible for him to have been the founder of Christianity.? This tradition is also given by Nahmanides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p. 306).? R. Jehiel Heilprin, the seventeenth century rabbinic historian, lists two Yeshua Hanotzris, the first being the earlier controversial disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah who lived during Yannai's reign, and the second as the founder of Christianity (Seder Hadorot, pp. 147, 148 and 15 1). Some have tried to link Jesus with a magician named Ben Stada, but R. Jacob Tam-the eminent Tosafist and grandson of Rashi-dismissed this (Shabbat 104B), as he had lived during the second century. This same R. Jacob Tam recorded (Sanhedrin 63B and Bekhorot 2B) that Trinitarianism is permitted to Gentiles, even though it is considered an idolatrous act if practiced by a Jew. ?? Unfortunately, many people-and especially those possessing an anti-semitic frame of mind-have had a field-day with making the wrong assumptions about the Talmud.? One can only guess at how many pogroms and persecutions were instigated against Jews because of this misinterpretation.? Such actions have not only caused terrible harm to innocent men, women and children, but also maligned the memory of the?man among his own people . ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:23:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? Hello Hez, Could you please enumerate exactly what you?consider to be the "mythos surrounding the man"? Toda, Tracy ________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:53:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style?miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously,? a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential?Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul ? That's really interesting since? even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his?coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans is Messiah,?feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant.? Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli? is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul?? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ In reference to your comment: ________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ ________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/ed216a9a/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 13:49:33 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <107386.20421.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Hez, Men from Judaism, Christianity or Islam can always take scripture and interpret it to justify their behavior and claim to do it in the name of someone. You have correctly pointed out that there have been those in the name Christianity that have done just that but you admit that it wasn't based on Yeshua's teachings. Let us not confuse this with Yeshua and his teachings as well as his disciples that follow him and his teachings. As for Yeshua not bringing anything new in his teachings, on the one hand this would be true. John 1: 1-18. On the other hand it was the depth and understanding of Torah, Prophets and Writings that Yeshua brought new. After the Sermon on the Mount and his deeper teachings of this Matthew states this in 7:28, " When Yeshua had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at the way he taught, for he was not instructing them like their Torah-teachers but as one who had authority himself." Susie --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 8:53 AM Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. ? No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. ? Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. ? Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style?miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously,? a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. ? Be well,Hez ? ? ? ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential?Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: ? That's really interesting since? even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? ? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his?coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. ? If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the?Romans is Messiah,?feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant.? Have a nice day,Hez ? ? ? ? ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli? is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul?? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/54313615/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 14:05:31 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:05:31 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Back so soon,Patty? LOL I have no problem with Christians having their book anymore than I have a problem with a Muslim having their's.I have a huge theological library right here at home that is not only Judaic texts,but Christian bibles,commentaries, translations of old church documents on so forth. I also have the Qran with Commentaries and a book of references concerning the Hadith. Throw in books on the Eastern faiths and an encyclopedia of the supernatural,occult and magic and you have what I have access to without the Net. It helps with the comparative theology articles .I used to give lectures at Messiah Truth on Paltalk. I find that to try to understand where someone is coming from, looking at where they get their concepts is always helpful. Let me ask you a hypothetical question that you don't have to post answer to. Which is a better situation? A Christian, which obviously believes in G-d, that believes all the dogma or someone that doesn't recognize the Living G-d at all? Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:27:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hi Hez, nice to ?see? you too! Well, I see the church as more of a vehicle for carrying the Truth, in a similar way that the mythological stories were a way of conveying Truth. What happened is that people (mostly the church leaders) worshipped the myth and ignored the Truth. Now as to the importance of this in getting the Torah in our homes, do you think there are many non-Jews today who have a Torah in their homes WITHOUT the NT attached to it? Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Patty, nice "seeing" you again. Ignoring the fact of mistranslations and the changing of grammatical tenses to make it fit the Greek text, you could almost say everyone has a rough translation of the Torah. It was Wycliffe that produced the first full text bible so the common man could read it. Before that,the church forbade the common man from reading it and it was in Greek and Latin.Fact is,the church was so angry about it, that almost, I believe it said, 30 years after Wycliffe died, they dug up his bones,convicted him of heresy and burned his remains.His bibles were hand written so it wasn't like everyone had access to them,only the rich who could afford books.1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. With the invention of the printing press,came the Gutenberg bible and provided more access1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin. Then you had these: 1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language. 1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha). 1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books). 1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books). If the church had had its way,you would still be learning scripture from the cannons. If it wasn't for the men above,you wouldn't be reading it at all. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:30:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the ?Christian machine?, millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/acd66c07/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 14:40:19 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:40:19 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Nice work,Tracy, but I would try to clarify it a bit more to show who is who and what is what. Shalom,Hez (I) "the Midrashic style miracle stories of the Christian bible". Things like walking on water, healing cripples,healing the blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. a) If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some mention in the Talmud. 1) There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think with all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? a) There isn't even a mention of anything about the man Jesus, who is considered the founder of Christianity (II) "the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus as thought by some" a) the first "Yeshua Hanotzri" mentioned could not have been him according to the twelfth century historian Abraham ibn Daud 1)we possess a true tradition (Kabalat Emet) that this Yeshua Hanotzri lived during the reign of Alexander Yannai (died 76 B.C.E.), 2) This Yeshua had been a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah 3) This places that Yeshua almost 3/4 of a century to early to be the Christian Jesus 4) This tradition is also given by Nahmanides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban) b) There are two men mistakenly thought to be Jesus of the Christian bible 1) According to R. Jehiel Heilprin, 17th century historian,lists two men, the first agreeing with the prior statements and the second "Yeshua HaNotzri" is the founder of Christianity 2) Some have tried to link the Christian book Yeshua with Ben Stada 3) R. Jacob Tam, the Tosafist and grandson of Rashi-dismissed this (Shabbat 104B), as he had lived during the second century. (III) All this has "also maligned the memory of the man among his own people due to" a) the persecution of Jews caused by misinterpreting The Talmud ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:29:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _tposborne77 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:tposborne77 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom Hezakiah, I have attempted to lay out your arguments in outline form. Would you say that I have I done this correctly? (I) "the Midrashic style miracle stories". Things like walking on water, healing cripples, healing the blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. a) If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some mention in the Talmud. 1) There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think that with all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? a) There isn't even a mention of anything about him. (II) "the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus" a) the first "Yeshua Hanotzri" could not have been him according to Nachmanides b) the second "Yeshua HaNotzri" is the founder of Christianity according to R. Jehiel Heilprin c) linking the real Yeshua with Ben Stada has dismissed by eminent R. Jacob Tam d) the persecution of Jews caused by misinterpreting The Talmud (III) All this has "also maligned the memory of the man among his own people" Todda Rabbah, Tracy ____________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:56:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Tracy, Exactly what I said,Trace, " the Midrashic style miracle stories". Things like walking on water, healing cripples, healing the blind,water into wine, appearing to people after death and the whole actual son of G-d concept. If this were the case and "multitudes" witnessed all this, then there should have been at least some mention in the Talmud. There is a story concerning a supposed magician in the Talmud so wouldn't you think that with all these "miracles" being witnessed by many, it would have definitely been referred too? There isn't even a mention of anything about him. Contrary to many Christians' thinking, the Talmudic literature does not contain criticism of Jesus. Some have sought to link him with a Yeshua Hanotzri, who is said to have practiced magic and sought to lead Israel astray (Sotah 47A and Sanhedrin 107B). But a foremost historian of the rabbinate, the twelfth century Abraham ibn Daud, wrote (Sefer Ha-Kabbalah, Jewish Publication Society Edition, p. 15) that we possess a true tradition (Kabalat Emet) that this Yeshua Hanotzri lived during the reign of Alexander Yannai (died 76 B.C.E.), and had been a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, thus making it impossible for him to have been the founder of Christianity. This tradition is also given by Nahmanides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p. 306). R. Jehiel Heilprin, the seventeenth century rabbinic historian, lists two Yeshua Hanotzris, the first being the earlier controversial disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah who lived during Yannai's reign, and the second as the founder of Christianity (Seder Hadorot, pp. 147, 148 and 15 1). Some have tried to link Jesus with a magician named Ben Stada, but R. Jacob Tam-the eminent Tosafist and grandson of Rashi-dismissed this (Shabbat 104B), as he had lived during the second century. This same R. Jacob Tam recorded (Sanhedrin 63B and Bekhorot 2B) that Trinitarianism is permitted to Gentiles, even though it is considered an idolatrous act if practiced by a Jew. Unfortunately, many people-and especially those possessing an anti-semitic frame of mind-have had a field-day with making the wrong assumptions about the Talmud. One can only guess at how many pogroms and persecutions were instigated against Jews because of this misinterpretation. Such actions have not only caused terrible harm to innocent men, women and children, but also maligned the memory of the man among his own people . ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:23:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _tposborne77 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:tposborne77 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hello Hez, Could you please enumerate exactly what you consider to be the "mythos surrounding the man"? Toda, Tracy ____________________________________ From: "Hezakiah4 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:53:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/c9bf3c1f/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 14:43:21 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:43:21 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hi again Sue, Ever listen to two different teachers talking about the same subject? One makes it as dry and boring as a saltine and the other makes it lively and interesting. Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:49:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Shalom Hez, Men from Judaism, Christianity or Islam can always take scripture and interpret it to justify their behavior and claim to do it in the name of someone. You have correctly pointed out that there have been those in the name Christianity that have done just that but you admit that it wasn't based on Yeshua's teachings. Let us not confuse this with Yeshua and his teachings as well as his disciples that follow him and his teachings. As for Yeshua not bringing anything new in his teachings, on the one hand this would be true. John 1: 1-18. On the other hand it was the depth and understanding of Torah, Prophets and Writings that Yeshua brought new. After the Sermon on the Mount and his deeper teachings of this Matthew states this in 7:28, " When Yeshua had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at the way he taught, for he was not instructing them like their Torah-teachers but as one who had authority himself." Susie --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 8:53 AM Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ram1500_man at yahoo.com_ (mailto:ram1500_man at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/4766e09d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 14:50:35 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:50:35 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years Message-ID: You mean the same ones that said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Key Judgments Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade. Baghdad hides large portions of Iraq's WMD efforts. Revelations after the Gulf war starkly demonstrate the extensive efforts undertaken by Iraq to deny information. Since inspections ended in 1998, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort, energized its missile program, and invested more heavily in biological weapons; most analysts assess Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. _Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs ? Central Intelligence Agency_ (https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.h tm) Shalom,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years Date: 3/20/2009 2:27:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com_ (mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Oddly this organization is known as an "INTELLIGENCE" agency?????? From: _cody oneill_ (mailto:oneillcody at yahoo.com) Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:13 PM To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Subject: [Dialogue] CIA Report: Israel will fall in 20 years Wishful Thinking? CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:44:41 GMT _http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=88491§ionid=351020202_ (http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=88491§ionid=351020202) International lawyer Franklin Lamb A study conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has cast doubt over Israel's survival beyond the next 20 years. The CIA report predicts "an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region." The study, which has been made available only to a certain number of individuals, further forecasts the return of all Palestinian refugees to the occupied territories, and the exodus of two million Israeli - who would move to the US in the next fifteen years. "There is over 500,000 Israelis with American passports and more than 300,000 living in the area of just California," International lawyer Franklin Lamb said in an interview with Press TV on Friday, adding that those who do not have American or western passport, have already applied for them. "So I think the handwriting at least among the public in Israel is on the wall...[which] suggests history will reject the colonial enterprise sooner or later," Lamb stressed. He said CIA, in its report, alludes to the unexpectedly quick fall of the apartheid government in South Africa and recalls the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, suggesting the end to the dream of an 'Israeli land' would happen 'way sooner' than later. The study further predicts the return of over one and a half million Israelis to Russia and other parts of Europe, and denotes a decline in Israeli births whereas a rise in the Palestinian population. Lamb said given the Israeli conduct toward the Palestinians and the Gaza strip in particular, the American public -- which has been voicing its protest against Tel Aviv's measures in the last 25 years -- may 'not take it anymore'. Some members of the US Senate Intelligence Committee have been informed of the report. MRS/MMN "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/40e67cb7/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Mar 20 16:00:39 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:00:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <050b01c9a99e$f017fa80$d047ef80$@com> You said: ?Let me ask you a hypothetical question that you don't have to post answer to. Which is a better situation? A Christian, which obviously believes in G-d, that believes all the dogma or someone that doesn't recognize the Living G-d at all?? Shalom,Hez That question doesn?t really make sense ? most Christians don?t believe in a single Creator G-d, they worship a trinity or Jesus as a godman figure. I believe that only YHWH knows what is in their heart, so I cannot answer that question. Patty ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:27:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hi Hez, nice to ?see? you too! Well, I see the church as more of a vehicle for carrying the Truth, in a similar way that the mythological stories were a way of conveying Truth. What happened is that people (mostly the church leaders) worshipped the myth and ignored the Truth. Now as to the importance of this in getting the Torah in our homes, do you think there are many non-Jews today who have a Torah in their homes WITHOUT the NT attached to it? Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Patty, nice "seeing" you again. Ignoring the fact of mistranslations and the changing of grammatical tenses to make it fit the Greek text, you could almost say everyone has a rough translation of the Torah. It was Wycliffe that produced the first full text bible so the common man could read it. Before that,the church forbade the common man from reading it and it was in Greek and Latin.Fact is,the church was so angry about it, that almost, I believe it said, 30 years after Wycliffe died, they dug up his bones,convicted him of heresy and burned his remains.His bibles were hand written so it wasn't like everyone had access to them,only the rich who could afford books.1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. With the invention of the printing press,came the Gutenberg bible and provided more access1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin. Then you had these: 1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language. 1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha). 1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books). 1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books). If the church had had its way,you would still be learning scripture from the cannons. If it wasn't for the men above,you wouldn't be reading it at all. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:30:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the ?Christian machine?, millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Dear Hezakiah, In reference to your last comment, in all fairness to Yeshua, couldn't it be said that he was the most influential Jew who ever lived. Millions of lives have been transformed and the knowledge and love of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has spread throughout the world because of him and his teachings. Susie --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 4:53 PM Hello Paul In reference to your comment: That's really interesting since even Jews don't know exactly what tribe they are from these days and just say Yisroel. The only ones today that do identify by tribe are Levi'im and Kohanim and that is by family tradition.So,you're claiming "research" shows that your bloodlines are Yehuda and Benyamin ?Gee, you'd think us Jews would use that research to find out what tribes we are.The Tanakh is very clear on who is a child of Israel and how tribal linage is passed on. Maybe G-d was wrong about the rules,huh? Blind on who the Messiah is? Now normally I try to avoid strife at all costs, but that is one self righteous pompous ass remark.When the Messiah comes,he will do everything he is supposed to do in his lifetime. There is nothing that even remotely infers it will take a few tries before he gets it right. According to one verse in Isaiah,Messiah will come in his own due time while it is also written that G-d will hasten his coming (which implies before the proper time).The answer given there is,"If we are worthy Messiah will be hastened,if not,he will come at due time. In Daniel it is written that Messiah will come"with the clouds of heaven" while Zechariah says messiah will come "as a poor man riding a donkey." .If his coming in a natural manner,"like a poor man riding a donkey." Then his identity needs to be verified.But if we merit,and he comes swiftly,with the clouds of heaven,ie:miraculously,there will be no need for clues or evidence that he is the true Messiah. If you want to consider a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans is Messiah, feel free. Insulting my faith because it doesn't agree with yours is just plain ignorant. Have a nice day,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/19/2009 6:04:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: There is no hebrew or greek word for gentiles...it is the same word used for nation or nations. One cannot anymore be a gentile than one can be a nation. The northern tribes assimilated into the culture that had taken them captive, and over time they were looked upon and considered as all the rest of the nations -- heathens. Just as the Jew is blind to who their Messiah is, so the Israeli is blind to their identity. YHWH will remove the blindness from both Judah and Israel, and once again the house of Jacob will be reunited. I am from an Anabaptist background, and definitely stem from the one of the ten northern tribes. Through research I have been able to trace my ancestry to the tribe of Judah (part of which was also taken captive by Assyria) and the tribe of Benjamin. Many want to deny that the scattered tribes exist today in America, Canada, Australia and most of the world once held under the authority of England. Too many prophecies have been fulfilled by and through England and America to deny our heritage. I suggest those of us who know who we are work together, so that when YHWH decides to remove the blindness the rest of our kinsmen will have someone to come home to. Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:44:48 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. _______________________________________________ _____ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/e61c31e2/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Fri Mar 20 17:16:26 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:16:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? References: Message-ID: <85DA80FC814A461985262A68317C93E4@davesbook> Hey Hez....from my point of view any and all points of view are valued and useful for ALL to consider! I feel that John was only pointing to our desire to consider HOW we say what we say and as long as we express our options in a respectful opinion, then the subject can and must be discussed! None of us want to stifle or compress our ideas. The ability to express what each of us "see" is crucial to this list to be effective. To be ignored is much worse then being flamed or spit upon.....(my opinion). I see that this subject, discussed lately can be adressed on this site! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi John, Hanoch brought up the point that it is best to agree that we disagree and I concurred with that.So far, I've come to the conclusion that this site is one of the best of its kind on the Net and I've been involved in dozens. Subject matter in 99.99% of the cases is extremely relevant an the other .01% is just plain relevant.I see people that are fervent in seeking Hashem and are charged with their convictions to change their lives for the better in doing so. If you still want me to answer the questions you posed in your post to Paul and I, then email to me at my AOL account and I will reply.Just copy and paste from your previous post and send to Hezakiah4 at aol.com. I won't post the answers here for the sake of shalom bayit (peace in the house). I use that term because The Synagogue without Walls is our house. Peace,happiness and Hashem's blessings to all,Hez ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090320/811f669d/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Mar 20 17:38:47 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:38:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Message-ID: Hi Patty,maybe this will help. According to many Ha authorities, belief in the trinity is only forbidden for a Jew ( member of any of the 12 tribes since some people here don't think Jew includes all 12 tribes so I'm clarifying that). A non-Jew may follow these tenets since belief in the omnipotent G-d is still present.The term for this is"shituf,", which means that G-d (as if) shares his rule with other gods. Condensed explanation is as long as Hashem is the head G-d,it's ok for Gentiles. If Hashem and whatever god added is considered to be equal, it's not ok. Makes it even a tougher question now,huh,Patty? Now you have to sort out and through over 23,000 different Christian sects to see which believe Hashem is the primary G-d and which believe all 3 parts of their trinity is equal.Of course,they all say they believe in One and quote 1 John 5:7:For there are three that bear witness in heaven,the Father,the Word and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one. The only glitch with using this as "scriptural" proof is this passage was added to the bible in the sixth century.It is first found in a paper called Liber Appologeticus in the fourth century. It is noted that the words"in heaven,the Father,the Word,and the Holy Ghost;and these three are one in older translations (1 John 5:7) are sixth century additions to the original text.The footnote in the Jerusalem Bible,a Catholic translation,says these words are "..not in any of the early Greek manuscripts or in the earliest manuscripts of the Vulgate itself."It is interesting that the Catholic church,who originally added this verse would admit now that it a spurious addition to the Testament. Gut Shabbos,See you folks Sat night after Shabbos, Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 5:01:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: You said: ?Let me ask you a hypothetical question that you don't have to post answer to. Which is a better situation? A Christian, which obviously believes in G-d, that believes all the dogma or someone that doesn't recognize the Living G-d at all?? Shalom,Hez That question doesn?t really make sense ? most Christians don?t believe in a single Creator G-d, they worship a trinity or Jesus as a godman figure. I believe that only YHWH knows what is in their heart, so I cannot answer that question. Patty ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 2:27:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hi Hez, nice to ?see? you too! Well, I see the church as more of a vehicle for carrying the Truth, in a similar way that the mythological stories were a way of conveying Truth. What happened is that people (mostly the church leaders) worshipped the myth and ignored the Truth. Now as to the importance of this in getting the Torah in our homes, do you think there are many non-Jews today who have a Torah in their homes WITHOUT the NT attached to it? Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hi Patty, nice "seeing" you again. Ignoring the fact of mistranslations and the changing of grammatical tenses to make it fit the Greek text, you could almost say everyone has a rough translation of the Torah. It was Wycliffe that produced the first full text bible so the common man could read it. Before that,the church forbade the common man from reading it and it was in Greek and Latin.Fact is,the church was so angry about it, that almost, I believe it said, 30 years after Wycliffe died, they dug up his bones,convicted him of heresy and burned his remains.His bibles were hand written so it wasn't like everyone had access to them,only the rich who could afford books.1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. With the invention of the printing press,came the Gutenberg bible and provided more access1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin. Then you had these: 1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language. 1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha). 1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books). 1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books). If the church had had its way,you would still be learning scripture from the cannons. If it wasn't for the men above,you wouldn't be reading it at all. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 1:30:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hi Hez and All, Because of Yeshua and the ?Christian machine?, millions of people have a Torah in their homes, attached to their NT. They are starting to read it. This would not have happened if not for Yeshua and Christianity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Hello again Sue, nice to "see" you. No,actually I would say that was Moses. Without him receiving and conveying the Torah from G-d, Judaism,Christianity and Islam wouldn't exist. Considering that Christianity has little to nothing to do with what he taught, millions of lives have been changed using his name, not his teachings, and millions more destroyed by it. I back this statement up with the spread of Greco, Roman and pagan influences adopted as truth by the church and the blood on the ground. Being that everything he taught already existed in Judaic concepts and thought,I would say more credit goes to his teachers. From the sermon on the mount which is word for word, is a first century BCE Pharisaic beatitude to quoting earlier rabbis of his day like Hillel, he taught nothing new. The mythos surrounding the man has had more influence than he did. If you take out the Midrashic style miracle stories from the book and you have exactly what I stated previously, a traveling Pharisaic teacher of beit Hillel,whose followers taught the Gentiles the Noahide laws after he was murdered by the Romans. Without that, his name would have just faded into history. Be well,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] A precedent for Ephramite Aliyah? Date: 3/20/2009 11:21:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _g