From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Sep  1 03:40:23 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 03:40:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
In-Reply-To: <424625.44213.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <4761B2136DC94A65B49C94A934AD265B@TESTPC>
	<424625.44213.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A5229312398E46EF9E3FEF12D44C2B56@bettylaptop>

Well put, Marvin and Glenn.  I too have followed this tenet in my faith for
a number of years now.  HaShem is my focus.HaShem and Torah.that is all that
I need.

On a personal level, once I was able to come to this conclusion, it lifted a
huge burden from my heart and my spirit.  

 

Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:30 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah

 


Marvin,

 

I have basically done as you suggest - abandoned any pre-conceived notions I
once held about a 'messiah' figure. The more I studied, the less I saw in
the Tenakh that lined up with the dogma I had been given over the years. So
I finally realized I simply had no idea what a messiah is/was. I am at a
point where I see little relevance this person might hold in my daily walk
with YHVH. I see no where in the Hebrew scriptures where I am to worship
him, or ask him to forgive my sins, or come into my heart by faith, or one
day raise me from the dead. I DO see where I am to ask YHVH to do these
things, however. I realize I could be way off base, but that is OK, because
YHVH said I will find Him if I seek for Him with my whole heart. I am not
instructed, as best I can find, to seek any other.

 

I agree in principle with most of the tenants you related below. Much lies
in how some of them are 'spun', if you will, but most are straightforward
and easy enough to grasp. There is only One God, who alone deserves my
singleness in devotion. He is not a man like me. He lives apart from time
and space and has no form that I can perceive unless He chooses to reveal
Himself to me. His word to and through the prophets is true, as is His
Torah. He will one day judge each of us according to our deeds. He has
ordered the universe and all things in it according to His own will and
plans, yet (I believe) still affords His creatures the free will to choose
right from wrong, obedience or disobedience.

 

What YHVH may plan to do with Mashiach, who ever that might be, is really
none of my business as I now see it. That of course may change over time,
but it is where I am right now. I am still taking baby steps in Torah, so
I'll leave these matters to the sages who have walked with YHVH long enough
to have some inkling as to what the Tenakh has to say on such matters. I
consider myself blessed to have been given the opportunity to obey the
simple "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not"s of the Torah. I find these give me
more than enough to fill my days as I learn to walk in the Ways of YHVH.

 

This is how I see it from my vantage point,

 

Glenn

<mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:


From: Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 5:59 PM

 

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

Indeed, talking of faith in God is quite vague. What exactly does faith in
God include? What are the articles or principles of faith as delineated by
the Torah? And, are they different for Jews and for non-Jews? 

Though faith is a super-rational faculty, and therefore not normally subject
to translation into a limited set of logical ordered principles, about 850
years ago, Maimonides-arguably the greatest authority on Jewish law and
Torah thought
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn1#_edn1> 1-compiled a list of 13 principles of Jewish faith.
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn2#_edn2> 2 They are:

1.	God is the Creator and is responsible for all that happens.
2.	God is One
3.	God is not corporeal.
4.	God is non-temporal.
5.	God alone should be worshiped.
6.	Prophecy is true.
7.	The prophecy of Moses is primary and true.
8.	The Torah is complete
9.	The Torah is eternal.
10.	There is Divine Providence.
11.	God gives reward and punishment
12.	The Messiah will arrive
13.	God will resurrect the dead 

As argued by later authorities,
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn3#_edn3> 3 Maimonides 13 principles all stem from 3 more general
principles:

1.	Faith in the Oneness and Singularity of the Almighty, out of which
stem the first through the fifth principles;
2.	Faith in the Torah's universal and everlasting verity as the
expression of God's Will, out of which stem the sixth through the ninth
principles; and, 
3.	Faith in reward and punishment based on each individual's conduct,
from which stem the tenth through the thirteenth principles.

Of course, these three principles themselves are all an elaboration of the
Torah's all inclusive expression of faith in the absolute Oneness of God:
"Hear O' Israel , God is our God, God is One."
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn4#_edn4> 4

 

This weekend and Sabbath their have several topics mention that has given us
much to study.  I had a chance to work through Psa 96-101 as suggested by
Dr. Tabor.  After 10 pages of notes, I laid the pencil down.  I hope to
comment in a few days on just the first few verses/chapters that
corresponded with my previous studies coming from the 1st  - 3 days of last
week. If you have not spent time in these Psalms, there is a feast awaiting
you.  

I want to pose a question for any and all.  Looking at the attached
principles above, I think most people oriented to the bible could agree on
some level.   For the past 2000 years Jews and Christians have disagreed,
discussed, fought over this messiah figure. In the name of their messiah
Christians have killed untold numbers of Jews and other humans.  Needless to
say, there is still disagreement, which is a good thing or "all the nations"
would have the wrong ideals about God.  


My question,  What does it do to our faith, or salvation, or standing with
Hashem if we collectively, just stop believing in a person, concept,
principle, entity or any other way to describe this ideal(of messiah).
Just absolutely refuse to believe, preach, espouse this ideal or concept of
a coming messiah.   We just all agree there is ONE it is YHVH and we have no
faith or believe in any other. Im not only asking or suggesting getting rid
of Jesus. I am asking what if.... We do away with the idea / concept of
messiah. ALL OF IT!!!   What changes?   The Sadducees did not believe in the
resurrection.  Which is the last principle of Maimonides (13) and possibly
does away with (10 thru 12) also.  Therefore if we have divine providence,
no resurrection, we also have no idea of messiah and nor rewards and
punishment.    I have almost answered my question, but how deep is the
concept of Messiah in what we are struggling to find in the world and in our
own personal life's / walk with God?


 Beliefs


The Sadducees are said to have rejected all Jewish observances not
explicitly taught in the pentateuchal law. In their legal debates, the
Sadducees consistently pushed for a strict and narrow application of the
law. They repudiated the notions of resurrection and rewards and punishments
after death. According to Josephus, they even denied the immortality of the
soul. The Sadducees tended to diassociate God from human affairs. For this
reason, they maintained that human choices and actions were totally free,
unrestrained by divine interference. Consistent with this emphasis on human
autonomy, the Sadducees denied the existence of angels and preterhuman
spirits. 

Most scholars have held that these beliefs mark off the Sadducees as
conservatives who stubbornly resisted the innovations of the Pharisees and
others. It should be noted, on the other hand, that these beliefs could just
as easily describe hellenized aristocrats who wanted to minimize as much as
possible the claims of their ancestral religion on their daily lives. 

Sadducees and the NT

Unlike the Pharisees, the Sadducees are consistently painted in a bad light
by the NT writers. Their opposition to Jesus and the early church is
presented as monolithic and constant. Reasons for the hostility are not hard
to imagine. To the Sadducees, Jesus and his early followers would have
appeared as destabilizing forces in delicate balance between limited Jewish
freedom and totalitarian Roman rule. But just as significantly, the
Sadducees could not have had anything but contempt for a movement that
proclaimed the present reality of the resurrection and the unconditional
necessity of repentance. 

S Taylor
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

 

Therefore we can say that the Sadducees dropped the last 3 principles of
Maimonides.  No rewards, no punishment, no heaven, no hell.  No messiah, no
resurrection of the dead.  Can we say that they were totally centered in
this world? Did the teach, follow torah in this world or receive punishment
in this world?  No ones coming to help you, hashem gave the torah, do it or
die?  When you die, there is no resurrection so the grave is the end?

At this point we can understand why the Sadducees ceased to exist.  The
first 5 principles, could we say had already been agreed on by the great
minds of "all the nations"?   But of all the things to fight over these last
2000 years can you find another set of principles that have such far
reaching possibilities?    I guess the bottom line, this concept, ideal of
messiah, regardless of the face you want to put on it, is larger then any of
us can imagine.  Can we say it is the watershed of the last 2000 years and
continues to direct and propel us into the future.

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

 


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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 06:28:11 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:28:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] question about Paul
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0909010428w1f650575k854d03962689de90@mail.gmail.com>

James and all,
I am looking forward to your new book the Paul Dynasty as it will probably
answer many of my questions.  One that I have, if you don't mind answering
now, is did Paul really write all the letters accredited to him?  Was he
really "trying to be all things to all men" or were some of the letters
written by his gentile followers in his name.  One example that comes to
mind is in Hebrews 7:3 speaking of Melkizedek not having a genealogy.
 Wouldn't any learned Jew of the time have known that Melkizedek was Shem?

Kim
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 06:35:34 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 07:35:34 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] question about Paul
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0909010428w1f650575k854d03962689de90@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c8dbb6e0909010428w1f650575k854d03962689de90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC8B5542-66D8-489C-A207-47B08442558D@earthlink.net>

There is an almost universal consensus among the scholars that we have  
seven "authentic" letters of Paul, i.e., those that come to us without  
later editing: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2  
Corinthians, Romans, Philippians, Philemon...

2 Thess, Colossians, and Ephesians are party from him but heavily  
edited...

1 & 2 Timothy & Titus are secondary, written by his "school" after his  
death...very much edited.

I generally agree with this.

Hebrews is not considered by Paul by anyone I know of in the academic  
world.

Take care,

James


On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:28 AM, kim alvarado wrote:

> James and all,
>
> I am looking forward to your new book the Paul Dynasty as it will  
> probably answer many of my questions.  One that I have, if you don't  
> mind answering now, is did Paul really write all the letters  
> accredited to him?  Was he really "trying to be all things to all  
> men" or were some of the letters written by his gentile followers in  
> his name.  One example that comes to mind is in Hebrews 7:3 speaking  
> of Melkizedek not having a genealogy.  Wouldn't any learned Jew of  
> the time have known that Melkizedek was Shem?
>
> Kim
>
> _______________________________________________

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Sep  1 07:00:41 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 08:00:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
In-Reply-To: <A5229312398E46EF9E3FEF12D44C2B56@bettylaptop>
References: <4761B2136DC94A65B49C94A934AD265B@TESTPC><424625.44213.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<A5229312398E46EF9E3FEF12D44C2B56@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <711E91FF8DD44306BB293822128B6609@TESTPC>

Glenn and betty,

 

My earlier post was me thinking out loud, as I study some little nuances
just jump off the page, one here and one there, not being able to connect
the dots I'm left with an incomplete picture.  When I was upon the temple
mount years ago, I had walked off by myself to pray and as I was walking and
praying, the day was just as still as it could be, and then a cool breeze
blew across me.  Almost as if you blow one breath of air into a baby's face.
One breath and it's gone.  Needless to say, that one breath, that 2 second
arctic blast cause me to stop and turn completely around looking to see
where it came from it was so real.   Well, some times I think we all catch
glimpses of things in the scripture but they are so fleeting and so short in
duration that we just cannot formulate what we are seeing. Which, just leads
us to more study till Hashem opens our eyes to see.

 

With that being said,  Maim odes formulated these 13 principles, which as my
list show derived form 3 principles.  Maimonides did not invent these. He
formulated these out of Jewish text, thousands of years of teaching and
thousands of pages of writings.   It caught my attention that the Sadducees
did not except the last 3 or so that had to do with divine providence,
reward and punishment, resurrection of the dead and messiah.  The Sadducees
no longer exist.    The discussion form the second temple period is still
going on.....    These very issues are what separate the Christian community
form the Jewish.  We are not even discussing who is right and who is
wrong!.......   these topical headings are at the root of this separation
and it seems they are at the root of NT teaching also. 

 

As a child I remember looking down my first hand dug well and remarking that
well was a really deep hole and someone commented that a "well" was a really
deep subject.  If these last 4 principles were a mud puddle, the discussion
would have been over a long time ago.  Regardless of were we fall in our
personal understanding of text and historical groups and perspectives, we
cannot just ignore and dismiss these groups and their ideals.   Ideals are
like rungs on a ladder, without the rungs on the bottom you will never get
to the one's at the top.     Groups come and go, their ideals that are
"truth" continue long after they are placed upon the trash heap of history.


 

Paul, regardless of what one might think of him and his teaching, he carry's
one side of the debate and like many discussions there are numerous sides
and viewpoints.   

 

I guess my point.  The last 4 articles of Maimonides are greater then we can
comprehend.

 

Shalom,

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty K Givin
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:40 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah

 

Well put, Marvin and Glenn.  I too have followed this tenet in my faith for
a number of years now.  HaShem is my focus.HaShem and Torah.that is all that
I need.

On a personal level, once I was able to come to this conclusion, it lifted a
huge burden from my heart and my spirit.  

 

Shalom,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of W Glenn Chatterton
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:30 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah

 


Marvin,

 

I have basically done as you suggest - abandoned any pre-conceived notions I
once held about a 'messiah' figure. The more I studied, the less I saw in
the Tenakh that lined up with the dogma I had been given over the years. So
I finally realized I simply had no idea what a messiah is/was. I am at a
point where I see little relevance this person might hold in my daily walk
with YHVH. I see no where in the Hebrew scriptures where I am to worship
him, or ask him to forgive my sins, or come into my heart by faith, or one
day raise me from the dead. I DO see where I am to ask YHVH to do these
things, however. I realize I could be way off base, but that is OK, because
YHVH said I will find Him if I seek for Him with my whole heart. I am not
instructed, as best I can find, to seek any other.

 

I agree in principle with most of the tenants you related below. Much lies
in how some of them are 'spun', if you will, but most are straightforward
and easy enough to grasp. There is only One God, who alone deserves my
singleness in devotion. He is not a man like me. He lives apart from time
and space and has no form that I can perceive unless He chooses to reveal
Himself to me. His word to and through the prophets is true, as is His
Torah. He will one day judge each of us according to our deeds. He has
ordered the universe and all things in it according to His own will and
plans, yet (I believe) still affords His creatures the free will to choose
right from wrong, obedience or disobedience.

 

What YHVH may plan to do with Mashiach, who ever that might be, is really
none of my business as I now see it. That of course may change over time,
but it is where I am right now. I am still taking baby steps in Torah, so
I'll leave these matters to the sages who have walked with YHVH long enough
to have some inkling as to what the Tenakh has to say on such matters. I
consider myself blessed to have been given the opportunity to obey the
simple "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not"s of the Torah. I find these give me
more than enough to fill my days as I learn to walk in the Ways of YHVH.

 

This is how I see it from my vantage point,

 

Glenn

<mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:


From: Marvin Hyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 5:59 PM

 

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

Indeed, talking of faith in God is quite vague. What exactly does faith in
God include? What are the articles or principles of faith as delineated by
the Torah? And, are they different for Jews and for non-Jews? 

Though faith is a super-rational faculty, and therefore not normally subject
to translation into a limited set of logical ordered principles, about 850
years ago, Maimonides-arguably the greatest authority on Jewish law and
Torah thought
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn1#_edn1> 1-compiled a list of 13 principles of Jewish faith.
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn2#_edn2> 2 They are:

1.	God is the Creator and is responsible for all that happens.
2.	God is One
3.	God is not corporeal.
4.	God is non-temporal.
5.	God alone should be worshiped.
6.	Prophecy is true.
7.	The prophecy of Moses is primary and true.
8.	The Torah is complete
9.	The Torah is eternal.
10.	There is Divine Providence.
11.	God gives reward and punishment
12.	The Messiah will arrive
13.	God will resurrect the dead 

As argued by later authorities,
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn3#_edn3> 3 Maimonides 13 principles all stem from 3 more general
principles:

1.	Faith in the Oneness and Singularity of the Almighty, out of which
stem the first through the fifth principles;
2.	Faith in the Torah's universal and everlasting verity as the
expression of God's Will, out of which stem the sixth through the ninth
principles; and, 
3.	Faith in reward and punishment based on each individual's conduct,
from which stem the tenth through the thirteenth principles.

Of course, these three principles themselves are all an elaboration of the
Torah's all inclusive expression of faith in the absolute Oneness of God:
"Hear O' Israel , God is our God, God is One."
<http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-principles-of-faith.php#_
edn4#_edn4> 4

 

This weekend and Sabbath their have several topics mention that has given us
much to study.  I had a chance to work through Psa 96-101 as suggested by
Dr. Tabor.  After 10 pages of notes, I laid the pencil down.  I hope to
comment in a few days on just the first few verses/chapters that
corresponded with my previous studies coming from the 1st  - 3 days of last
week. If you have not spent time in these Psalms, there is a feast awaiting
you.  

I want to pose a question for any and all.  Looking at the attached
principles above, I think most people oriented to the bible could agree on
some level.   For the past 2000 years Jews and Christians have disagreed,
discussed, fought over this messiah figure. In the name of their messiah
Christians have killed untold numbers of Jews and other humans.  Needless to
say, there is still disagreement, which is a good thing or "all the nations"
would have the wrong ideals about God.  


My question,  What does it do to our faith, or salvation, or standing with
Hashem if we collectively, just stop believing in a person, concept,
principle, entity or any other way to describe this ideal(of messiah).
Just absolutely refuse to believe, preach, espouse this ideal or concept of
a coming messiah.   We just all agree there is ONE it is YHVH and we have no
faith or believe in any other. Im not only asking or suggesting getting rid
of Jesus. I am asking what if.... We do away with the idea / concept of
messiah. ALL OF IT!!!   What changes?   The Sadducees did not believe in the
resurrection.  Which is the last principle of Maimonides (13) and possibly
does away with (10 thru 12) also.  Therefore if we have divine providence,
no resurrection, we also have no idea of messiah and nor rewards and
punishment.    I have almost answered my question, but how deep is the
concept of Messiah in what we are struggling to find in the world and in our
own personal life's / walk with God?


 Beliefs


The Sadducees are said to have rejected all Jewish observances not
explicitly taught in the pentateuchal law. In their legal debates, the
Sadducees consistently pushed for a strict and narrow application of the
law. They repudiated the notions of resurrection and rewards and punishments
after death. According to Josephus, they even denied the immortality of the
soul. The Sadducees tended to diassociate God from human affairs. For this
reason, they maintained that human choices and actions were totally free,
unrestrained by divine interference. Consistent with this emphasis on human
autonomy, the Sadducees denied the existence of angels and preterhuman
spirits. 

Most scholars have held that these beliefs mark off the Sadducees as
conservatives who stubbornly resisted the innovations of the Pharisees and
others. It should be noted, on the other hand, that these beliefs could just
as easily describe hellenized aristocrats who wanted to minimize as much as
possible the claims of their ancestral religion on their daily lives. 

Sadducees and the NT

Unlike the Pharisees, the Sadducees are consistently painted in a bad light
by the NT writers. Their opposition to Jesus and the early church is
presented as monolithic and constant. Reasons for the hostility are not hard
to imagine. To the Sadducees, Jesus and his early followers would have
appeared as destabilizing forces in delicate balance between limited Jewish
freedom and totalitarian Roman rule. But just as significantly, the
Sadducees could not have had anything but contempt for a movement that
proclaimed the present reality of the resurrection and the unconditional
necessity of repentance. 

S Taylor
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

 

Therefore we can say that the Sadducees dropped the last 3 principles of
Maimonides.  No rewards, no punishment, no heaven, no hell.  No messiah, no
resurrection of the dead.  Can we say that they were totally centered in
this world? Did the teach, follow torah in this world or receive punishment
in this world?  No ones coming to help you, hashem gave the torah, do it or
die?  When you die, there is no resurrection so the grave is the end?

At this point we can understand why the Sadducees ceased to exist.  The
first 5 principles, could we say had already been agreed on by the great
minds of "all the nations"?   But of all the things to fight over these last
2000 years can you find another set of principles that have such far
reaching possibilities?    I guess the bottom line, this concept, ideal of
messiah, regardless of the face you want to put on it, is larger then any of
us can imagine.  Can we say it is the watershed of the last 2000 years and
continues to direct and propel us into the future.

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

 


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________

 

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From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 21:26:50 2009
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:26:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] question about Paul
In-Reply-To: <DC8B5542-66D8-489C-A207-47B08442558D@earthlink.net>
References: <1c8dbb6e0909010428w1f650575k854d03962689de90@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC8B5542-66D8-489C-A207-47B08442558D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0909011926p67770928m20ddb6ca3cd60bec@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your answer, James!  Looking forward to your book.
Kim

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 6:35 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>wrote:

> There is an almost universal consensus among the scholars that we have
> seven "authentic" letters of Paul, i.e., those that come to us without later
> editing: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans,
> Philippians, Philemon...
> 2 Thess, Colossians, and Ephesians are party from him but heavily edited...
>
> 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus are secondary, written by his "school" after his
> death...very much edited.
>
> I generally agree with this.
>
> Hebrews is not considered by Paul by anyone I know of in the academic
> world.
>
> Take care,
>
> James
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:28 AM, kim alvarado wrote:
>
> James and all,
> I am looking forward to your new book the Paul Dynasty as it will probably
> answer many of my questions.  One that I have, if you don't mind answering
> now, is did Paul really write all the letters accredited to him?  Was he
> really "trying to be all things to all men" or were some of the letters
> written by his gentile followers in his name.  One example that comes to
> mind is in Hebrews 7:3 speaking of Melkizedek not having a genealogy.
>  Wouldn't any learned Jew of the time have known that Melkizedek was Shem?
>
> Kim
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 06:21:53 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 21:21:53 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
Message-ID: <SNT108-W2145AC19EEAD24FAA5CCDCC8F00@phx.gbl>


Very wise words Marvin - thank you.  There is plenty to think about in what you said.  And what an amazingly beautiful experience you had with the cool breath of wind at the temple mount.  Wonderful!  Xx
_________________________________________________________________
Take a peek at other people's pay and perks Check out The Great Australian Pay Check
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 08:04:29 2009
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 09:04:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah
In-Reply-To: <SNT108-W2145AC19EEAD24FAA5CCDCC8F00@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT108-W2145AC19EEAD24FAA5CCDCC8F00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS24098F4100A66A9CE9BB0BBAF00@phx.gbl>

I loved it too, Marvin.  Thank you so much.

Pat


From: Catherine Cashmore 
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:21 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah


Very wise words Marvin - thank you.  There is plenty to think about in what you said.  And what an amazingly beautiful experience you had with the cool breath of wind at the temple mount.  Wonderful!  Xx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other people's pay and perks 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Sep  4 18:40:40 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Remembrance
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS24098F4100A66A9CE9BB0BBAF00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <690405.24995.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


Malachi 3:16? Then they that feared YHVH spake often one to another: and?YHVH hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared YHVH, and that thought upon his name.
17? And they shall be mine, saith YHVH of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

My beloved Dialogue family - it has been too long since we spoke of YHVH together... let us reaffirm our mutual fear of Him, and love for one another, as we break the bread of Torah together in humility, from a pure heart bent only on pleasing Him.
?
Shabbat Shalom, one and all!
?
Glenn
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From rossknichols at me.com  Fri Sep  4 19:58:46 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:58:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Tavo
Message-ID: <00E1B282-C9FF-4248-8ED1-E08EC1F5917F@me.com>

You can join our service live tomorrow morning at 10:30 central on www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith

I am teaching on Torah reading Ki Tavo. The Torah reading is found in  
Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8. The prophet reading is Isaiah 60:1-22.

I hope that you can join in. Shabbat shalom!

Sent from my iPhone


From rossknichols at me.com  Sat Sep  5 14:50:44 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:50:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Tavo
In-Reply-To: <00E1B282-C9FF-4248-8ED1-E08EC1F5917F@me.com>
References: <00E1B282-C9FF-4248-8ED1-E08EC1F5917F@me.com>
Message-ID: <622A7D00-E3D0-4339-8AE6-1506D4288BEE@me.com>

Audio file up on rootsoffaith.org

Video is posted on www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 4, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Ross Nichols <rossknichols at me.com> wrote:

> You can join our service live tomorrow morning at 10:30 central on www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith
>
> I am teaching on Torah reading Ki Tavo. The Torah reading is found  
> in Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8. The prophet reading is Isaiah 60:1-22.
>
> I hope that you can join in. Shabbat shalom!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________


From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun Sep  6 10:48:49 2009
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 08:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Fear The Name
Message-ID: <191542.12214.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Isaiah 59:15? Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and YHVH saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. 16? And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17? For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18? According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense. 19? So shall they fear the name of?YHVH from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of YHVH shall lift up a standard against him. 20? And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Yaaqov, saith YHVH.
?
Psalms 102:12? But thou, O YHVH, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations. 13? Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. 14? For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof. 15? So the heathen shall fear the name of YHVH, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.
?
Malachi 4:1? For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith YHVH of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2? But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3? And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith?YHVH of hosts.
?
Psalms 86: 9? All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. 10? For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone. 11? Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
?
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  7 07:39:29 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 08:39:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 103 & Blessings on Hanoch
Message-ID: <FE3F127C-2AFA-46AA-B834-414AB14EF8D6@earthlink.net>

May my life-breath bless YHVH, and all my inner self, the Name of his  
Holiness,
May my life-breath bless YHVH, and not forget all His recompenses:
The One who pardons all your failures,
The One who heals all your diseases,
The One who snatches your life from Destruction,
The One who surrounds your with loyal-kindness and mercies,
The One who satiates with the good your life-span,
Your youth is made new as an eagle...

For Hanoch this day as he wings his way to the Land of Yisrael, born  
again into his new life...

James




From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Tue Sep  8 18:16:24 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 19:16:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article
Message-ID: <1B6B35212AF4491E9649225CF5E9107E@dickLPC>

If Ralph B is seeing this request great. Ralph ! Some years back I had one of your Articles concerning how Collage's were instrumental in teaching and requiring the Hebrew Language to be known.
   Would you have that info to be downloaded to us????
I cannot find mine to save me.  I felt it to be a great piece of work by you & should be available to all.  It comes to mind every once in a while when I have time to think, and want to see it again. Have a few interested parties that my find it to there likeing. Not sure if you wanted to do this as well. Please get in touch.  Dick L
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From mail at rootsoffaith.net  Wed Sep  9 16:43:02 2009
From: mail at rootsoffaith.net (A Synagogue Without Walls)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 21:43:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Dialogue] On A Synagogue Without Walls: Conference Expenses
Message-ID: <17868568.18847111252532582599.JavaMail.xncore@omx>

A message to all members of A Synagogue Without Walls

For those who wish to "chip in" financially and help us with expenses for the conference and campout, we added a chipin link on the event page. As always, your contributions are very much appreciated. No amount is too small. I have always believed that people should not be pressured to give and therefore I seldom ask. Those that can give usually do, and those that cannot will never be pressed by me to do so.

Visit A Synagogue Without Walls at: http://www.rootsoffaith.net

--
To control which emails you receive on A Synagogue Without Walls, go to:
http://www.rootsoffaith.net/profiles/profile/emailSettings



From rebuntyn at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 18:23:21 2009
From: rebuntyn at aol.com (rebuntyn at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 19:23:21 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article
In-Reply-To: <1B6B35212AF4491E9649225CF5E9107E@dickLPC>
References: <1B6B35212AF4491E9649225CF5E9107E@dickLPC>
Message-ID: <8CBFFBBA80EA95C-3D40-67F@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com>


Dick, good to hear from you. Most of my articles on the subject are posted on the UIWU blog. You can reach through our website www.unitedisrael.org.

If you wish, I will be happy to mail you copies of the articles and related information. Just let me know a mailing address where you want them sent. I'm happy to do it and hope they will be helpful.

How are things in the great state of Maine? I hope you have had a good and fulfilling summer.

Always good to hear from you.

All best, Ralph




-----Original Message-----
From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 7:16 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article




If Ralph B is seeing this request great. Ralph ! Some years back I had one of your Articles concerning how Collage's were instrumental in teaching and requiring the Hebrew Language to be known.

?? Would you have that info to be downloaded?to us????

I cannot find mine to save me.? I felt it to be a great piece of work by you & should be available to all.? It comes to mind every once in a while when I have time to think, and want to see it again. Have a few interested?parties that my find it to there likeing.?Not sure if you wanted to do this as well. Please get in touch.? Dick L



_______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 10 10:50:51 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:50:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] James Ossuary in the News Again
Message-ID: <46AF801D-211B-42E3-81FF-EE933A42A720@earthlink.net>

The James ossuary is in the news again. See my latest Blog post for  
links and details:

http://jamestabor.com/2009/09/10/james-ossuary-in-the-news-again/

How is everyone out there?

James



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 10 11:18:04 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:18:04 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel in 2010: A Desert Experience
Message-ID: <60A602A5-5822-4C8C-BA32-3E02AE6FF0E2@earthlink.net>

As I mentioned at our April UIWU meeting here in Charlotte I am trying  
to work out details for an Israel tour in 2010 that would focus on "a  
desert experience" at Biblical Tamar in the wilderness of Paran area-- 
where I believe Sinai/Horeb was located. My original idea was to do  
this during Sukkoth and stay most of that week at Tamar in the desert  
but in thinking further about that idea, and in consultation with  
DeWayne Coxen, who would co-host the tour with me, I have made some  
changes that I think make a lot of sense. DeWayne has had 30 years of  
experience in such matters and is also willing to provide many of the  
logistical needs we would have. It is also possible that we would  
involve Keith Johnson and Nehemia Gordon in this tour as part of the  
teaching offered.

What we are currently thinking is that we would go October 25-November  
5th, just after Sukkoth rather than the week of Sukkoth itself. The  
main reason is that during the festival the entire country is flooded  
with tourists as well as locals coming to Jerusalem and things are  
extremely expense and crowded, whereas the prices drop, and space  
opens up considerably thereafter. I am also thinking, since many would  
be making their first trip to Israel with us, that we need to include  
Jerusalem, the Galilee, and the Dead Sea (Qumran & Masada) as well.  
Our current plans call for us to spend spend three nights at the site  
of ancient Tamar under the stars right in the area where Moses and the  
Israelites camped. We would also have an opportunity to do some  
archaeological work one one of those days at the site itself. The  
entire tour would be built around daily Teaching in all the locations,  
with an emphasis on Abrahamic Faith and the Way of Torah, with  
relevance to those of both Jewish and Christian backgrounds, but  
primarily based on the perspectives represented by United Israel and  
Roots of Faith.

More later, but I wanted to give folks a heads up.

There is a marvelous archaeological report on the excavations at Tamar  
at: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/tamar/Biblical_Tamar.pdf

James Tabor






From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Thu Sep 10 16:40:24 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:40:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article
In-Reply-To: <8CBFFBBA80EA95C-3D40-67F@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com>
References: <1B6B35212AF4491E9649225CF5E9107E@dickLPC>
	<8CBFFBBA80EA95C-3D40-67F@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <5EE44337D44E45CAA1433FC4EDA202C1@dickLPC>

Thank you Ralph for your reply. I'll try the web site first so as not have you go to that trouble. I do appreciate the offer. Hopefully the site will make it easier. 
   we lost at least half of summer to rain & cold. But August turned things around, finally. Have been real busy with family & even work. Trying to work only mornings, BUT,, yesterday left work at 5:30. Getting to old for that stuff. Nice hearing from you.  Dick L
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rebuntyn at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 7:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article


  Dick, good to hear from you. Most of my articles on the subject are posted on the UIWU blog. You can reach through our website www.unitedisrael.org.
  If you wish, I will be happy to mail you copies of the articles and related information. Just let me know a mailing address where you want them sent. I'm happy to do it and hope they will be helpful.
  How are things in the great state of Maine? I hope you have had a good and fulfilling summer.
  Always good to hear from you.
  All best, Ralph



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
  To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
  Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 7:16 pm
  Subject: [Dialogue] Ralph's Article


  If Ralph B is seeing this request great. Ralph ! Some years back I had one of your Articles concerning how Collage's were instrumental in teaching and requiring the Hebrew Language to be known.
     Would you have that info to be downloaded to us????
  I cannot find mine to save me.  I felt it to be a great piece of work by you & should be available to all.  It comes to mind every once in a while when I have time to think, and want to see it again. Have a few interested parties that my find it to there likeing. Not sure if you wanted to do this as well. Please get in touch.  Dick L
_______________________________________________


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Sep 10 19:45:50 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:45:50 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] James Ossuary in the News Again
In-Reply-To: <46AF801D-211B-42E3-81FF-EE933A42A720@earthlink.net>
References: <46AF801D-211B-42E3-81FF-EE933A42A720@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FBF8C43B7940424E9000324D7B5119BE@TESTPC>

Thanks James,  The greatest witness that the James ossuary is indeed the
real thing is the 8 0r 9,000 pages of court testimony and the fact that the
scholarly world can not come to a definitive answer.  Ironic is it not.

marvin

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:51 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] James Ossuary in the News Again

The James ossuary is in the news again. See my latest Blog post for  
links and details:

http://jamestabor.com/2009/09/10/james-ossuary-in-the-news-again/

How is everyone out there?

James

_______________________________________________



From rossknichols at me.com  Fri Sep 11 19:53:25 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:53:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Nitzavim / VaYelech
Message-ID: <F9A39441-BC25-4EF0-9DF9-2800A139235B@me.com>

The Torah readings tomorrow contain some of the greatest material in  
all of Scripture in my opinion. I have taught most of the points that  
I will cover tomorrow but I hope that people will still listen in. One  
can never hear these points enough.

I hope that you can check us out live www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith

Tell others about it.

Shabbat shalom

Sent from my iPhone


From zimlechem at windstream.net  Sun Sep 13 17:12:14 2009
From: zimlechem at windstream.net (Stephen Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:12:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 40
In-Reply-To: <71.9E.27723.698149A4@lrcmmta01>
References: <71.9E.27723.698149A4@lrcmmta01>
Message-ID: <4AAD6E3E.8010303@windstream.net>

Shalom, Hanoch.

I wouldn't equate Rome with Ephraim; John Hulley (whom I hope you get to 
meet in Yerushalayim) has documented the likelihood that one of the ways 
to identify Ephraim throughout history has been those who were branded 
and persecuted as "heretics" by Rome because they tried to adhere closer 
to Scripture on whatever the issues were in their day.

Remez



dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org wrote:
> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> 	dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. test (Dave Cole)
>    2. Not making it easier to trust Ephraim.... (Hanoch Young)
>    3. Re: Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue - Pat (Catherine Cashmore)
>    4. Re: Not making it easier to trust Ephraim.... (James Tabor)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:29:07 -0500
> From: "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>
> Subject: [Dialogue] test
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <22AD722BBEA64F7ABDF164220CEDD379 at davesbook>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> no need to respond...we are playing with some settings
> dave
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:41:01 -0700
> From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Not making it easier to trust Ephraim....
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID:
> 	<855590370908241741v3d77b4a9t71b906a4a4eecce1 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Erev tov -
>
>    I just saw this article, and my first thought was: NOW the Rabbanim
> (Rabbis) in Israel will want to stay even further and further away from
> interfaith dialogue.  It seems to always come down to stealing that Jewish
> soul.  And Benedict, the Nazi Pope, of course.  My favorite quote under my
> name is more true then I ever realized....
>                              * Hanoch
> *  * "No one counts on the Spanish Inquisition"
> *                                   Monty Python
>
> US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews
> by Malkah Fleisher
>
> A June document issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
> (USCCB), suggesting that interfaith dialogue conducted by Catholics with
> Jews should be used as an opportunity to missionize them, has disturbed and
> infuriated American Jews from all streams of practice.
>
> Entitled "A Note On Ambiguities Contained In Reflections On Covenant And
> Mission", the document references a 2002 missive on the topic of interfaith
> dialogue with the Jews written in coordination with the National Council of
> Synagogues by an advisory group to the USCCB's Committee on Ecumentical and
> Interreligious Affairs.
>
> The old document, although it affirmed missionary work in general and stated
> that interfaith dialogue could be "mutually enriching," specifically stated
> that Jews should not be sought for conversion, as they serve a purpose as
> "Jewish witnesses".
>
> However, the "Note on Ambiguities" revokes these understandings. In the new
> document, USCCB  Bishops assert the centrality of missionary work to
> Catholic doctrine and suggest a finite divine covenant with the Jews: "The
> long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its
> unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man."
> According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the
> covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus
> Christ."
>
> The American Jewish world has erupted in response to the "Note on
> Ambiguities", with several organizations uniting to reply with "serious
> concern."
>
> Signed on August 18 by the American Jewish Committee, Anti-Defamation League
> (ADL), National Council of Synagogues, Orthodox Union, and Rabbinical
> Council of America, a letter posted on the ADL website says the "Note on
> Ambiguities" "engendered both uncertainty and considerable disappointment
> with respect to the position maintained by the Church and its
> spokespersons," with "invitations" to become Christian making Jewish
> participation in dialogue with the Church "untenable".
>
> While Pope John Paul II often spoke of a covenant "never revoked," the "Note
> on Ambiguities" seems to annul that position, with a harder-line stance on
> conversion being taken by new Pope Benedict XVI.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:14:11 +1000
> From: Catherine Cashmore <chcashmore at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue - Pat
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <SNT108-W668A74328D1B38CA0BBA6C8F80 at phx.gbl>
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> They were beautifully expressed words Pat - your sincere thoughts really hit my heart.  May we all be humble enough to learn.  (SO glad to hear the list is no longer 'moderated'.)
> _________________________________________________________________
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> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:15 -0400
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Not making it easier to trust Ephraim....
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
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> Thanks for this Hanoch.
>
> The ADL document is also worth reading: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/5554_31.htm
>
> No matter how hard liberal forms of Christianity try to accommodate  
> Jews or other religions in "ecumenical" dialogue the process is  
> ultimately doomed because Christianity, with its incarnational  
> salvation through Jesus Christ as God, is embedded in most all its  
> forms from the 2nd century CE onward, stemming from the letters of  
> Paul and the Gosple of John. I cover this in Restoring Abrahamic  
> Faith, pp. 160ff as you know and in a major way in the new book on  
> Paul I am just completing.
>
> It is good, in that sense, that this is coming out and being exposed.  
> And yet, there are followers of Yeshua, even as Messiah, very few I  
> grant you, who do not hold such views. Separating things is the problem.
>
> James
> On Aug 24, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Hanoch Young wrote:
>
>   
>> Erev tov -
>>
>>    I just saw this article, and my first thought was: NOW the  
>> Rabbanim (Rabbis) in Israel will want to stay even further and  
>> further away from interfaith dialogue.  It seems to always come down  
>> to stealing that Jewish soul.  And Benedict, the Nazi Pope, of  
>> course.  My favorite quote under my name is more true then I ever  
>> realized....
>>                               Hanoch
>>    "No one counts on the Spanish Inquisition"
>>                                    Monty Python
>>
>> US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews
>> by Malkah Fleisher
>>
>> A June document issued by the United States Conference of Catholic  
>> Bishops (USCCB), suggesting that interfaith dialogue conducted by  
>> Catholics with Jews should be used as an opportunity to missionize  
>> them, has disturbed and infuriated American Jews from all streams of  
>> practice.
>>
>> Entitled "A Note On Ambiguities Contained In Reflections On Covenant  
>> And Mission", the document references a 2002 missive on the topic of  
>> interfaith dialogue with the Jews written in coordination with the  
>> National Council of Synagogues by an advisory group to the USCCB's  
>> Committee on Ecumentical and Interreligious Affairs.
>>
>> The old document, although it affirmed missionary work in general  
>> and stated that interfaith dialogue could be "mutually enriching,"  
>> specifically stated that Jews should not be sought for conversion,  
>> as they serve a purpose as "Jewish witnesses".
>>
>> However, the "Note on Ambiguities" revokes these understandings. In  
>> the new document, USCCB  Bishops assert the centrality of missionary  
>> work to Catholic doctrine and suggest a finite divine covenant with  
>> the Jews: "The long story of God's intervention in the history of  
>> Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who  
>> is God become man."  According to the document, "we also believe  
>> that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises  
>> to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ."
>>
>> The American Jewish world has erupted in response to the "Note on  
>> Ambiguities", with several organizations uniting to reply with  
>> "serious concern."
>>
>> Signed on August 18 by the American Jewish Committee, Anti- 
>> Defamation League (ADL), National Council of Synagogues, Orthodox  
>> Union, and Rabbinical Council of America, a letter posted on the ADL  
>> website says the "Note on Ambiguities" "engendered both uncertainty  
>> and considerable disappointment with respect to the position  
>> maintained by the Church and its spokespersons," with "invitations"  
>> to become Christian making Jewish participation in dialogue with the  
>> Church "untenable".
>>
>> While Pope John Paul II often spoke of a covenant "never revoked,"  
>> the "Note on Ambiguities" seems to annul that position, with a  
>> harder-line stance on conversion being taken by new Pope Benedict XVI.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>     
>
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> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 40
> ****************************************
>
>   



From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 10:49:51 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 08:49:51 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] ELUL
Message-ID: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>

*FROM THE DESK OF
BARBARA GINSBERG
*
*Jews and Judaism
Rabbi Meir Kahane *

*Elul ? September 2,1977*

The Jewish calendar is full of notations, red letter days that are meant to
be both particular reminders as well as part of a uniform one: Time is
passing; the sands of life have run out just a bit more; the beard is a
little grayer and the limbs just a touch heavier. Time. The Jewish calendar
is a watchman of time, a ram?s horn that blows not once a year but every
time that a new time cycle begins.

Every week is marked by a Sabbath that notes not only the end of the week
passed but the beginning of a new one. It is both a reminder of seven full
days passed out of our life ? so soon! ? as well as the opportunity to make
the next period fuller, more meaningful, a reason for being.

Every month is marked by a Rosh Chodesh, the consecration of the new
beginning of yet another lunar cycle. The wheel of heaven has revolved yet
another thirty days ? so soon! ? and we are that much older. The L-rd now
gives us another month to prove that we are also that much wiser. It is not
only another month, it is a new month. Above all, it is called Rosh Chodesh,
the ?head? of the month. Is there perhaps here a hint to see how much wisdom
has filled our heads during the mistakes and sins of the past one??

And every year has its Rosh Hashanah, that peculiarly Jewish day in which
there are no parties and drinking and abandonment of restraint; in which
there is no hilarious laughter and noise that is a frantic and frenetic
attempt to convince all (and oneself) that he is happy; there is no frantic
clutching at pleasure before it escapes and ? worse ? before I pass on; too
soon, too soon. There is Rosh Hashanah, the time post. Another year gone by
? already? So soon! ? and it is a time to see what the gray hairs and the
added wrinkles and the slower reflexes have taught us. Rosh Hashanah is one
step closer to the gateway out of this world and into the next one. It is a
time to rehearse the speech that we will make ? all of us ? some day, before
the Supreme courts, as we attempt to explain the meaning of our lives below.
Life is too short for fools. It is too long for those who know it was not
given for happiness (if that comes, how wonderful, but how often does it
appear, only in insignificant measures and at rare times, as drops of rain
that fall on a parched desert leaving no impact, changing nothing so that
the traveler never knows it fell). Life was given for holiness and sanctity,
so that we might rise above ourselves; so that we might consecrate and
hallow that animalism within us that threatens at every moment to escape and
express itself in selfishness, ego and greed ? sins that are themselves only
the corridors to the crimes of cruelty and hurting others. Life is not a
happy thing ? it s a beautiful thing, and when one becomes the artist and
artisan of that beauty that is called holiness, when one practices the
supreme holiness that comes of loving and giving of oneself.

Elul is the month of shove, return and introspection. It is the month of
scraping away the ego that has settled and crusted on our hearts and souls.
If Passover calls for searching out the leaven in the home, Elul decrees
removing it ? yeasty and bloated ego ? from the soul. It is a time to note
the calendar, the graying and aging, and to realize: Not for nonsense was I
born and not with nonsense must they bury me.

Be good. Love. Love selflessly; cease speaking evil, cease thinking evil;
cease searching out evil in your fellow human beings. Cease seeking to grow
at the expense of others. For one who climbs on top of the man he has just
chopped down is not taller. He is the same dwarf standing on his victim?s
height. Be wary lest you hurt the one you love. Think before you act towards
the other person. Be good as a person, as an individual, and your part of
the world has become holy. Then, if others emulate you, the world will
suddenly and automatically turn beautiful and hallowed. It is Elul. Think of
your beloved ? all the people of the earth ? and think of your particular
beloved. Give of yourself and you will receive that which no amount of
grasping and scheming can bring you; self-respect. Love the other and you
will learn to like yourself. Be holy, for the One who made you is Holy and
for this He placed you on this earth. It is another Elul, yet another one.
How many more are left?

*Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to
receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be,
please contact me at:*

*barhow at netvision.net.il  *

* *
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Sep 14 19:56:54 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:56:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] ELUL
In-Reply-To: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE82A98F41E34B2AA9582D8523915699@bettylaptop>

Great to hear from you Hanoch!  I love this teaching from Rav Kahane as it
so embodies the beautiful teachings that are built into the Jewish calendar
and the holidays.the cycles and the seasons.and this upcoming
season.reflection and soul searching, asking forgiveness for those we have
hurt, a time of t'shuvah, new beginnings, and dedication is one of my
personal favorites as it carries so much meaning.

 

May HaShem bless you, Hanoch, as you celebrate the High Holy Days this
season.I know you will be saying the Shechkieyanu this year!

 

My love,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 10:50 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] ELUL

 

FROM THE DESK OF
BARBARA GINSBERG

Jews and Judaism 
Rabbi Meir Kahane 

Elul - September 2,1977

The Jewish calendar is full of notations, red letter days that are meant to
be both particular reminders as well as part of a uniform one: Time is
passing; the sands of life have run out just a bit more; the beard is a
little grayer and the limbs just a touch heavier. Time. The Jewish calendar
is a watchman of time, a ram's horn that blows not once a year but every
time that a new time cycle begins.

Every week is marked by a Sabbath that notes not only the end of the week
passed but the beginning of a new one. It is both a reminder of seven full
days passed out of our life - so soon! - as well as the opportunity to make
the next period fuller, more meaningful, a reason for being.

Every month is marked by a Rosh Chodesh, the consecration of the new
beginning of yet another lunar cycle. The wheel of heaven has revolved yet
another thirty days - so soon! - and we are that much older. The L-rd now
gives us another month to prove that we are also that much wiser. It is not
only another month, it is a new month. Above all, it is called Rosh Chodesh,
the "head" of the month. Is there perhaps here a hint to see how much wisdom
has filled our heads during the mistakes and sins of the past one.?

And every year has its Rosh Hashanah, that peculiarly Jewish day in which
there are no parties and drinking and abandonment of restraint; in which
there is no hilarious laughter and noise that is a frantic and frenetic
attempt to convince all (and oneself) that he is happy; there is no frantic
clutching at pleasure before it escapes and - worse - before I pass on; too
soon, too soon. There is Rosh Hashanah, the time post. Another year gone by
- already? So soon! - and it is a time to see what the gray hairs and the
added wrinkles and the slower reflexes have taught us. Rosh Hashanah is one
step closer to the gateway out of this world and into the next one. It is a
time to rehearse the speech that we will make - all of us - some day, before
the Supreme courts, as we attempt to explain the meaning of our lives below.

Life is too short for fools. It is too long for those who know it was not
given for happiness (if that comes, how wonderful, but how often does it
appear, only in insignificant measures and at rare times, as drops of rain
that fall on a parched desert leaving no impact, changing nothing so that
the traveler never knows it fell). Life was given for holiness and sanctity,
so that we might rise above ourselves; so that we might consecrate and
hallow that animalism within us that threatens at every moment to escape and
express itself in selfishness, ego and greed - sins that are themselves only
the corridors to the crimes of cruelty and hurting others. Life is not a
happy thing - it s a beautiful thing, and when one becomes the artist and
artisan of that beauty that is called holiness, when one practices the
supreme holiness that comes of loving and giving of oneself.

Elul is the month of shove, return and introspection. It is the month of
scraping away the ego that has settled and crusted on our hearts and souls.
If Passover calls for searching out the leaven in the home, Elul decrees
removing it - yeasty and bloated ego - from the soul. It is a time to note
the calendar, the graying and aging, and to realize: Not for nonsense was I
born and not with nonsense must they bury me.

Be good. Love. Love selflessly; cease speaking evil, cease thinking evil;
cease searching out evil in your fellow human beings. Cease seeking to grow
at the expense of others. For one who climbs on top of the man he has just
chopped down is not taller. He is the same dwarf standing on his victim's
height. Be wary lest you hurt the one you love. Think before you act towards
the other person. Be good as a person, as an individual, and your part of
the world has become holy. Then, if others emulate you, the world will
suddenly and automatically turn beautiful and hallowed. It is Elul. Think of
your beloved - all the people of the earth - and think of your particular
beloved. Give of yourself and you will receive that which no amount of
grasping and scheming can bring you; self-respect. Love the other and you
will learn to like yourself. Be holy, for the One who made you is Holy and
for this He placed you on this earth. It is another Elul, yet another one.
How many more are left?

Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to
receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be,
please contact me at:

barhow at netvision.net.il  

 

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Sep 15 05:12:14 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 06:12:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
Message-ID: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>

 



DEATH AND LIFE OF 

JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai


 



The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and some
background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus - March 26, 1985
- September 5, 2009


 



 Jonathan A <http://www.m7000.com/Yoni/Yoni3.jpg>  

Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
 
Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my beloved
24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus. 

 

On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal One of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully asleep in his bed.
He will be missed terribly by family and friends alike. 
 
To each of you that are receiving this email from me, I deeply wish to thank
you for sending your sincere words of strength and encouragement in this
time of loss and grief and informing me of your heartfelt prayer support.
Additionally, there were a number of people that went beyond all this and
financially as able, helped Dina and me bear the not-so-easy costs of the
funeral expenses and for this, we are sincerely grateful beyond words. 
 
Death, in whatever language of the world, is a word that we have all come to
know intellectually because where life has been given, certainly death is
also divinely decreed; the biblical words of Genesis chapter three are
painfully true and we all know it; it is a set law of heaven: where there is
life, there is also death. When death comes to call on our family and
friends and yes, even to us...it naturally leaves within its wake, a sting
for the survivors; a pain that throbs and does not easily go away.
Consequently, to those who lose loved ones and are the survivors of the
heartbreak, we can be sure that we will never be the same. What we once can
say that we knew intellectually now becomes something that we know
first-hand. Intellectual knowledge turns into experiential knowledge and
naturally, this is where the hurt and the pain is the greatest. 

 

I can't even count how many times I've tried to identify with the pain of
someone else's loss of a family member or a friend and yet in trying to
identify with the person suffering the loss, I always felt that my
intellectual knowledge got in the way. My words, sympathies and condolences
were always coming up short and were always insufficient because the true
experience was not mine. Then after a period of time, perhaps a week or a
few weeks or even a month at the most, I would always expect that the one in
mourning would no longer be mourning because in truth, time has a way of
erasing pain - that is intellectually. However, today, I see things very
different because now the bereavement experience is mine; and not just that
of a mother or father or brother or sister or husband or wife or some other
family member or a friend. No, a 24 year old son that had his whole life in
front of him and now he is no more. Now I know precisely the emotions, the
feelings, the pain, the sorrow, the loss of what death and bereavement is
all about. And I also know how the emotion of anger against YHWH can quietly
slip into the mind, if allowed to. But rather than entertain the spirit of
anger in the midst of pain, I am trying hard in my pain to see things in a
different light. As my son Jonathan said and expressed many times, "if you
don't like the outlook of your day or you don't like how you feel, then
change your program." Thus, with the pain of bereavement and death we indeed
have another program that we can hook up to; that is our biblical hope in
the divine decree of resurrection, which is taught in many places of the
Tanakh and the Brit HaHadasha. Yes, if we wish to grow beyond the pain that
death brings and to go on to survive on many levels - emotional, physical,
spiritual - we must not lose hope in the biblical teaching of resurrection;
that we, our family, our friends will live again by an eternal and divine
decree of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.   

 

On this premise, the fact is that death has only temporary power to inflict
a sting but in the end, death is merely a temporary pain and it will in the
end yield to the hope of eternal life by the power of the Ruach HaKodesh and
the eternal Name Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh (YHWH = Exodus 3:14). In this, I can, I
will, I must rest in what our Father in Heaven has decreed for all of his
creation. In time, I hope to learn to accept the earthly finality of
Jonathan's passing with the optimism that I will see him again in the
future. Of course, the pain of knowing that I will not see him again in this
life is still quite real and not easily put away from my mind. And working a
lot or keeping my mind busy on other concerns and matters is not going to
make the pain subside. The only thing that will cure the pain of my soul is
the truth that I tell myself and that truth must be based on the words of
the Eternal Torah and in my relationship with YHWH through prayer. This
being said, I want to thank each and every one of you that are receiving
this mailing for helping Dina and I get through the inevitability and pain
of something so difficult, real, and tangible - death and bereavement. 

 

Thank you for praying for us. I see your prayers like a natural medication
for the soul. YHWH hears you (and hears my prayers too) and in response, He
pulls me through the throbbing aches and pains of what the soul is
experiencing where no human eye can see. Again, thank you my dear friends
and family in the faith. I don't expect the pain to go away tomorrow but I
know that tomorrow and next week and next month and next year will slowly
form a basis for my healing. Time is a beautiful salve for the soul. Never
let us show contempt for it. YHWH created it for our good. Likewise, is it
any wonder that YHWH uses time and a lot of mercy as primary ingredients to
lead us to repentance; to heal our pains; to fix our broken relationships
with others; to make us whole? 
 
Now, for a little background into the short life of my son...
 
Just days after his 18th birthday in March of 2003, Dina and I took Jonathan
with us and made our move from America to Israel. In Hebrew, this is called
Aliyah. In December of 2003, Jonathan was inducted into the IDF (Israeli
Defense Forces) and served in an elite unit called Tzanchanim or the
Paratroopers, unit 101. Jonathan was intellectually brilliant. His ability
to learn and communicate in Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and English was
absolutely astounding to me. Jonathan had an awesome mind and a good heart.
Of course, in some cases, all of this got him into trouble. He had lots of
friends but also made a few enemies along the way. He served in the Israeli
army with dignity and dedication. 
 
I recall one very special and tender moment when Jonathan returned home from
a couple of difficult weeks in Gaza when his Army unit was deployed by then
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to help eradicate 9,000 Jewish residents from
their homes in a move of "peace" with the Palestinians. Though following
orders and performing his duty as a soldier of the IDF, Jonathan was deeply
distressed over this whole affair. Upon returning home, I could hear our
front door open. I then came out of my office to greet Jonathan. However, he
said not a word to me. Instead, with his face streaming with tears, he flung
his arms around my neck and shoulders and with a quiet gut-wrenching
sobbing; he just clung to me for perhaps five minutes. After calming down,
he told me of the horrible things that he had to do by orders of his
commanders and what he experienced in that event was nothing short of
emotional trauma. This was in August of 2005. 
 
Later, in March of 2006 one of Jonathan's friends and a paratrooper comrade
- Yosef Goodman, 20, of Efrat (just south of Jerusalem) died in a
parachuting accident. Yosef had saved the life of one of his commanders when
their parachute became entangled. The death of Yosef Goodman was very
difficult on my son, because they were good friends and were in training
together in the IDF; then came July 2006. 
 
 ACU1 <http://www.m7000.com/Yoni/Yoni1.jpg> Jonathan and his paratroopers
unit 101 were deployed to fight in Israel's second Lebanon War. While
positioned in a building in the town of Bint Jbeil with his IDF friends and
comrades Jonathan Einhorn 22, and Michael Levine 21, a Hezbollah rocket
propelled grenade (RPG) came crashing through the wall. The subsequent
explosion caused the death of Einhorn and Levine. However, my beloved
Jonathan's life was spared, though being violently thrown down with a small
concussion and with some temporary hearing loss and shrapnel wounds to his
arms. He was airlifted to Haifa's Rambam Hospital where he recovered and was
released. In the months that followed, Jonathan went several times to the
graves of his friends and comrades Einhorn and Levine, who are buried at the
Mount Herzl cemetery in Jerusalem. He would stand over their graves and say
to his friends, "Why you and not me?" A friend of our family - Tziki Aud of
the Jewish Agency here in Israel, who had helped Jonathan tremendously said
in an encounter with Jonathan, "Last Saturday Yonatan came to me after
returning from battle in Bint Jbeil. He had a very difficult experience
there and said that he didn't want to go back until he said goodbye to all
his friends. He was traumatized by what he experienced there."
 
In December 2006, my Jonathan was honorably discharged from the IDF and
tried to enter a normal civilian life within Israeli society. But, he was so
emotionally, physically, and spiritually scarred from seeing and
participating in the pain and suffering of Israel's political wars; the loss
of a number of his personal friends and comrades; the difficulty in trying
to understand and make sense of the overall craziness of life in Israel,
which is not easy to deal with on a daily basis. With all this and years of
going through so much pain here, the balance of 2006 and the whole of 2007
took its toll on my son's mind as he began to show some serious signs of
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). I tried (and others tried) to get him
some professional help here but he continually refused it, saying he was
fine. But, he wasn't fine. He was in deep emotional pain. He left Israel for
a few months, taking a short-term managerial job with an Israeli company in
the Philippines. Later in mid 2007, he returned to Israel. I put him to work
with me doing some video production here and he just had a difficult time
staying focused on the work that I had given him to do and was with great
difficultly struggling with remaining emotional stable. On the outside he
appeared sane and in control but inside, he was a wreck and I could see it
as his father; I could see quite clearly that he was in pain and I tried to
help on many levels, but to no avail. Meanwhile, his behavior became
somewhat estranged from me and erratic over the weeks and months.
Nonetheless, I continued to love him and tried to help him but it became
clear to me that he needed to find some help; professional help that was
beyond my ability to give to him. 

 

Finally, in early 2008, Yoni came to me and said that he was going to return
to the USA, to live with some family that I have in New York. I gave him a
big fatherly hug and some traveling cash and told him not to become a
stranger to us and that I wanted to see him again soon and that I would be
here for him anytime that he needed me. Yoni told me and Dina that he was
leaving Israel to get some peace of mind and to get his life put back
together and to find some emotional stability. 
 
As a father, I had so much wanted to stay closely in contact with him but I
felt that I had to refrain from this and give him the emotional space that
he needed in order to help him find his meaning and purpose in life and to
put his life in order. It was a deep struggle within me; should I continue
communication with my son while I was in Israel and he was in New York or
should I leave him a space of time to find healing and to just know that I
was here in the background if he needed me? I did however, stay abreast of
some of his activities through family members. In the end, my decision was
to give him the space of time that he needed to find meaning and purpose in
life and to remain quietly and lovingly in the background. Nonetheless, I
prayed fervently and regularly for him to find YHWH, His Torah, happiness,
success and all good in life. In not contacting him for quite some time I
had to come to accept that perhaps it would be a couple of years or more
before he might be ready to reestablish communication and a relationship
with me. To me, I was hoping for an outcome that resembles Yeshua's parable
of the prodigal son and I had hopes that Yoni would return to meet me half
way in life before I would get too old and that I would have the opportunity
to embrace him in a restoration at some point in the near future. 
 
This kind of thing did in fact happen once before at the festival of Yom
Teruah ("Rosh HaShanah") 2004, after another temporary strained time in our
relationship. Yoni came home from the Army and on the festival of Yom
Teruah, he called me aside and face-to-face, he looked me in the eyes
closely and deeply apologized for all of our father/son miscommunications
and issues and told me how much he loved me and appreciated me for bringing
him to Israel the year prior and for all the good that Dina and I had done
for him. With tears in his eyes and in mine, we were together wonderfully
moved to heal the things that we had between us. This, I must say, was the
best day of my life here in Israel. 
 
I attended his paratrooper's induction at the Jerusalem Kotel (Western
Wall), the celebration of his 90 km masa tishim (basic training mountain
hike) and finally, his military graduation from paratrooper training.
Between 2004 and 2005, life was good for Yoni, between us, his friends, his
family and he seemed to appreciate all that he had in the way of meaning and
purpose in life. But in late 2005 and all of 2006, in the years of Israel's
intense political wars, military and societal upheavals, Yoni began to
deteriorate and show signs of becoming worn down emotionally because the
secular state of Israel is a very difficult place to live. As a sidebar,
this is one of those "Giants in the Land" metaphorically and without a firm
focus on and in YHWH as our King, our Protector, our Hope, our Master of
Heaven and Earth, our Savior, our Direction, our Life - this land can be a
source of consternation and distress that devours its inhabitants. I've seen
it happen many times. However, with a focus and trust on and in YHWH, I have
also seen that we can overcome these "giants" but it takes a personal
measure of internal faith and fortitude, which is why Dina and I appreciate
all your prayer support on a regular basis. And furthermore, this is why you
must know that if you wish to move to and live in Israel, it is highly
important that you allow yourself to be faithful to YHWH and you must desire
to keep and obey His eternal Torah otherwise, you may not survive this harsh
environment. I'm not saying that you must be perfect in your faith and Torah
obedience. What I am saying is that this land has plenty of giants in a
metaphoric sense and it is a land where light and darkness collide on a
daily basis. One must stay focused on divine truth with the help of YHWH. 
 
For my son Yoni with his struggling faith, it was hard enough for him to
find YHWH and His Torah here in the Land, which to this day, remains a
common problem for our young men and women in these end times and what is
more truthful is that it is even more of a fight for our sons and daughters
of the exile to find faith and hope in YHWH and His Torah in lands that are
not Eretz Israel. As a result, my heart goes out to each of you that have
strained relationships with your sons and daughters over issues that are so
common to the Exile; issues that have a tendency to pull you and them in
directions that are contrary to what the Torah teaches. This is why it is
important to practice what the Torah teaches in exile (to the best of your
knowledge and ability) so that when you arrive here in the land where
spiritual light and darkness violently collide, you will hopefully remain
steadfast and unmovable to the powers that run wildly free, to and fro in
this land - powers that are both unseen and seen. 
 
Though my beloved Jonathan was struggling here in the land on many levels,
his faith in YHWH and in His Torah was clouded over at times; yet at other
times, he was so incredibly spiritual and trusting in the Name and I could
see his internal struggle. Sometimes, my son could tell you the secrets of
the universe and at other times, he was not sure of anything. But, one thing
he was sure of: he hated the religion of the Arabs, not the Arabs
themselves. He saw them as very troubled. Regardless, Yoni loved YHWH in his
own intellectual and emotional way and loved Israel deep down and I know
that he loved his people - the Jewish people. By his own admission, Jonathan
said that he wanted to return to Israel, settle down and raise children on a
Moshav here and that his experiences with the IDF was all good, despite all
his complaining about it for three years. I know that his heart was good
even though life here was difficult for him. For reasons known only to YHWH,
Yoni's heart stopped beating in his sleep on September 5, 2009 while a
resident at a special homeless shelter in Westchester County, New York. 
 
I suppose if I could turn back the hands of time and return to stories about
when he was a boy and then a young man and tell you of all the events and
experiences that we had as a family, it would be pages and pages of material
and I would actually very much enjoy doing this not just for your reading
and understanding but also for my own sake of helping me to deal with his
loss. But at this point, I am going to bring all this to a close because I
feel that I have made the salient points that I wanted to make in this
mailing. Suffice to say, I am blessed to have had a son like Jonathan and
I'm blessed to have a mind to be able to recall so much of my son's life and
the memories that we made together with his mother and sister in the 1980's
and 90's. We did so much as a family and I can still see my son's
inquisitive mind racing for answers to life's most difficult questions and
his keen ability to be able to give you a conversation worth listening to. 
 
In truth, my fondest memory of him was in making Aliyah to Israel in 2003. I
so much wanted him to live in Israel and find himself here but it is clear
now that this was not the will of YHWH. In retrospect, I hope and trust that
in the great resurrection, he will return to this Land in all its future
glory, along with all of you who yearn for the fulfillment of the biblical
prophecies of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings - the Tanakh and the
Brit HaHadasha. 
 
Indeed, I could go on and on extolling the life of my son Jonathan Benjamin
Marcus and go on writing profusely about all that he did and said from
childhood to adulthood but at this point, I am going to end this missive to
you and let his sweet memories settle into my soul. To each of you reading
this mail, I want to say THANK YOU - TODA RABA L'CHEM, for your love, your
kindnesses, your generosity, your concerns, your prayers, for all that you
have said and done for Dina and me. I am deeply honored, though I feel
unworthy. I am deeply moved and touched with so much love and compassion,
though feeling incredibly overwhelmed emotionally and spiritually. In the
meantime, I am going to simply tuck Yoni's memories away into my heart and
mind and I must try to learn to accept the fact that as I grow old and grey,
I will not ever see him again in this life; but I have a hope that I will
see him in the life of the world to come. This is my expectation and my
prayer to YHWH. 
 
May each of you that have also had to bury family members and loved ones
find solace and comfort in your pain of loss and may you too find hope in
knowing that we don't have to be angry because YHWH is Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh -
the GREAT I AM, that WAS, that IS, that WILL BE FOREVER. He is in full
control of all things both seen and unseen to the human eye. May our hearts
together be knit as one in the Name YHWH and in His Anointed Prophet like
Moshe -- Yeshua ben Yosef, ben David, ben Yah. 
 
Take care and Shalom from Jerusalem
B'shem YHWH, Elohei Avraham, v'Yitzchak v'Ya'acov
 
Avinoam ben Mordechai Marcus
Jerusalem
City of the Great King, Forever. 




 
<http://rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1102704798847.0.1102033976191.1062&ts=S0413&o=http:
//ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 15 06:55:30 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:55:30 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] ELUL
In-Reply-To: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1AFD5FE6-48A1-4AD7-84A5-AA66C74E2B3E@earthlink.net>

Dear Hanoch,

This is a truly amazing piece by Rabbi Kahana. Thank you for sending  
it on to us. I am thinking this might be the first we have heard from  
you since you have "landed in the Land." I need to check the SWW to  
see if you might have posted something there. I look forward, as I  
know all of us do on this list, to hearing about your various  
adventures, trials, experiences, and amazing stories which you always  
have to share. What a time for you with these special days just ahead.  
YHVH be with you and write us soon if you can.

James


On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Hanoch Young wrote:

> FROM THE DESK OF
> BARBARA GINSBERG
>
> Jews and Judaism
> Rabbi Meir Kahane
>
> Elul ? September 2,1977
>
> The Jewish calendar is full of notations, red letter days that are  
> meant to be both particular reminders as well as part of a uniform  
> one: Time is passing; the sands of life have run out just a bit  
> more; the beard is a little grayer and the limbs just a touch  
> heavier. Time. The Jewish calendar is a watchman of time, a ram?s  
> horn that blows not once a year but every time that a new time cycle  
> begins.
>
> Every week is marked by a Sabbath that notes not only the end of the  
> week passed but the beginning of a new one. It is both a reminder of  
> seven full days passed out of our life ? so soon! ? as well as the  
> opportunity to make the next period fuller, more meaningful, a  
> reason for being.
>
> Every month is marked by a Rosh Chodesh, the consecration of the new  
> beginning of yet another lunar cycle. The wheel of heaven has  
> revolved yet another thirty days ? so soon! ? and we are that much  
> older. The L-rd now gives us another month to prove that we are also  
> that much wiser. It is not only another month, it is a new month.  
> Above all, it is called Rosh Chodesh, the ?head? of the month. Is  
> there perhaps here a hint to see how much wisdom has filled our  
> heads during the mistakes and sins of the past one??
>
> And every year has its Rosh Hashanah, that peculiarly Jewish day in  
> which there are no parties and drinking and abandonment of  
> restraint; in which there is no hilarious laughter and noise that is  
> a frantic and frenetic attempt to convince all (and oneself) that he  
> is happy; there is no frantic clutching at pleasure before it  
> escapes and ? worse ? before I pass on; too soon, too soon. There is  
> Rosh Hashanah, the time post. Another year gone by ? already? So  
> soon! ? and it is a time to see what the gray hairs and the added  
> wrinkles and the slower reflexes have taught us. Rosh Hashanah is  
> one step closer to the gateway out of this world and into the next  
> one. It is a time to rehearse the speech that we will make ? all of  
> us ? some day, before the Supreme courts, as we attempt to explain  
> the meaning of our lives below.
> Life is too short for fools. It is too long for those who know it  
> was not given for happiness (if that comes, how wonderful, but how  
> often does it appear, only in insignificant measures and at rare  
> times, as drops of rain that fall on a parched desert leaving no  
> impact, changing nothing so that the traveler never knows it fell).  
> Life was given for holiness and sanctity, so that we might rise  
> above ourselves; so that we might consecrate and hallow that  
> animalism within us that threatens at every moment to escape and  
> express itself in selfishness, ego and greed ? sins that are  
> themselves only the corridors to the crimes of cruelty and hurting  
> others. Life is not a happy thing ? it s a beautiful thing, and when  
> one becomes the artist and artisan of that beauty that is called  
> holiness, when one practices the supreme holiness that comes of  
> loving and giving of oneself.
>
> Elul is the month of shove, return and introspection. It is the  
> month of scraping away the ego that has settled and crusted on our  
> hearts and souls. If Passover calls for searching out the leaven in  
> the home, Elul decrees removing it ? yeasty and bloated ego ? from  
> the soul. It is a time to note the calendar, the graying and aging,  
> and to realize: Not for nonsense was I born and not with nonsense  
> must they bury me.
>
> Be good. Love. Love selflessly; cease speaking evil, cease thinking  
> evil; cease searching out evil in your fellow human beings. Cease  
> seeking to grow at the expense of others. For one who climbs on top  
> of the man he has just chopped down is not taller. He is the same  
> dwarf standing on his victim?s height. Be wary lest you hurt the one  
> you love. Think before you act towards the other person. Be good as  
> a person, as an individual, and your part of the world has become  
> holy. Then, if others emulate you, the world will suddenly and  
> automatically turn beautiful and hallowed. It is Elul. Think of your  
> beloved ? all the people of the earth ? and think of your particular  
> beloved. Give of yourself and you will receive that which no amount  
> of grasping and scheming can bring you; self-respect. Love the other  
> and you will learn to like yourself. Be holy, for the One who made  
> you is Holy and for this He placed you on this earth. It is another  
> Elul, yet another one. How many more are left?
>
> Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal  
> list to receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would  
> like to be, please contact me at:
> barhow at netvision.net.il
>
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 15 07:22:33 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:22:33 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
In-Reply-To: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
References: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <BDB9C41C-A21D-47B5-8258-C35774802256@earthlink.net>

Thanks for sharing this Marvin.  I found it very touching and moving.  
I think Is this the Avi Ben Mordechai of Millennium 7000? I don't know  
much about him other than what I have seen on the Web and from what I  
can tell the Hebrew Roots movement of the Messianics is undergoing a  
lot of change, turmoil, and transformation, some of it, so far as I  
can tell, in good directions. I wonder if Hanoch knows anything about  
Avi or his connections. I know he is strong on the "Two House" ideas.

James


On Sep 15, 2009, at 6:12 AM, Marvin Hyde wrote:

>
> DEATH AND LIFE OF
>
> JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai
>
>
> The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and  
> some background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus -  
> March 26, 1985 - September 5, 2009
>
>
> Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
>
> Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my  
> beloved 24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus.
>
> On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal  
> One of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully  
> asleep in his bed.  He will be missed terribly by family and friends  
> alike.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Sep 15 07:35:49 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:35:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
In-Reply-To: <BDB9C41C-A21D-47B5-8258-C35774802256@earthlink.net>
References: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
	<BDB9C41C-A21D-47B5-8258-C35774802256@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DD3C8CFA544E4478BCB6370465D439BC@TESTPC>

Yes James this is the son of the Avi ben Mordechai of Millennium 7000.  When
I read this I was touch with sadness, not only for the lost of a son and the
pain of the father, but also knowing that this story is played out everyday
over and over again in the Land of Israel.  I simply prayed, O LORD how
long?

 

shalom

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:23 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus

 

Thanks for sharing this Marvin.  I found it very touching and moving. I
think Is this the Avi Ben Mordechai of Millennium 7000? I don't know much
about him other than what I have seen on the Web and from what I can tell
the Hebrew Roots movement of the Messianics is undergoing a lot of change,
turmoil, and transformation, some of it, so far as I can tell, in good
directions. I wonder if Hanoch knows anything about Avi or his connections.
I know he is strong on the "Two House" ideas.

 

James

 

 

On Sep 15, 2009, at 6:12 AM, Marvin Hyde wrote:





 



DEATH AND LIFE OF 

JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai


 



The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and some
background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus - March 26, 1985
- September 5, 2009


 



 Jonathan A <http://www.m7000.com/Yoni/Yoni3.jpg>  

Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
 
Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my beloved
24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus.

 

On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal One of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully asleep in his bed.
He will be missed terribly by family and friends alike. 
 

 
<http://rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1102704798847.0.1102033976191.1062&ts=S0413&o=http:
//ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 

_______________________________________________



 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 15 07:38:04 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:38:04 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
In-Reply-To: <DD3C8CFA544E4478BCB6370465D439BC@TESTPC>
References: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
	<BDB9C41C-A21D-47B5-8258-C35774802256@earthlink.net>
	<DD3C8CFA544E4478BCB6370465D439BC@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <E1E7FCB9-048E-4957-811C-F8FB48294E40@earthlink.net>

Well I found it very moving and I just  wrote Avi a personal note. He  
had ordered RAF some time back.

Take care,

James


On Sep 15, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Marvin Hyde wrote:

> Yes James this is the son of the Avi ben Mordechai of Millennium  
> 7000.  When I read this I was touch with sadness, not only for the  
> lost of a son and the pain of the father, but also knowing that this  
> story is played out everyday over and over again in the Land of  
> Israel.  I simply prayed, O LORD how long?
>
> shalom
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:23 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
>
> Thanks for sharing this Marvin.  I found it very touching and  
> moving. I think Is this the Avi Ben Mordechai of Millennium 7000? I  
> don't know much about him other than what I have seen on the Web and  
> from what I can tell the Hebrew Roots movement of the Messianics is  
> undergoing a lot of change, turmoil, and transformation, some of it,  
> so far as I can tell, in good directions. I wonder if Hanoch knows  
> anything about Avi or his connections. I know he is strong on the  
> "Two House" ideas.
>
> James
>
>
> On Sep 15, 2009, at 6:12 AM, Marvin Hyde wrote:
>
>
>
> DEATH AND LIFE OF
>
> JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai
>
>
> The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and  
> some background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus -  
> March 26, 1985 - September 5, 2009
>
>
> Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
>
> Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my  
> beloved 24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus.
>
> On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal  
> One of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully  
> asleep in his bed.  He will be missed terribly by family and friends  
> alike.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From tammyhulon at msn.com  Tue Sep 15 08:00:36 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:00:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
In-Reply-To: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
References: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W31AA35FE4E4D709F22C7ADD9E30@phx.gbl>


To All,

 

We too share in this sadness.  We had the pleasure of meeting Yoni in 2000 at Sukkot in Lake Murray, Oklahoma.  Web actually hung out with him and really liked Yoni.  He slept in our Sukkah that we had brought all the way from South Carolina.  We count it a blessing to have shared this short time with him.

 

May YHWH comfort Avi, our friend, during this time and always, and bring him Joy once again.

 

Shalom to All,  Tami

 


 


From: mhyde7 at tds.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 06:12:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus









 









DEATH AND LIFE OF 
JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai



 







The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and some background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus - March 26, 1985 - September 5, 2009



 






 

Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
 
Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my beloved 24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus. 

 

On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal One of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully asleep in his bed.  He will be missed terribly by family and friends alike. 
 
To each of you that are receiving this email from me, I deeply wish to thank you for sending your sincere words of strength and encouragement in this time of loss and grief and informing me of your heartfelt prayer support. Additionally, there were a number of people that went beyond all this and financially as able, helped Dina and me bear the not-so-easy costs of the funeral expenses and for this, we are sincerely grateful beyond words. 
 
Death, in whatever language of the world, is a word that we have all come to know intellectually because where life has been given, certainly death is also divinely decreed; the biblical words of Genesis chapter three are painfully true and we all know it; it is a set law of heaven: where there is life, there is also death. When death comes to call on our family and friends and yes, even to us...it naturally leaves within its wake, a sting for the survivors; a pain that throbs and does not easily go away. Consequently, to those who lose loved ones and are the survivors of the heartbreak, we can be sure that we will never be the same. What we once can say that we knew intellectually now becomes something that we know first-hand. Intellectual knowledge turns into experiential knowledge and naturally, this is where the hurt and the pain is the greatest. 

 
I can't even count how many times I've tried to identify with the pain of someone else's loss of a family member or a friend and yet in trying to identify with the person suffering the loss, I always felt that my intellectual knowledge got in the way. My words, sympathies and condolences were always coming up short and were always insufficient because the true experience was not mine. Then after a period of time, perhaps a week or a few weeks or even a month at the most, I would always expect that the one in mourning would no longer be mourning because in truth, time has a way of erasing pain - that is intellectually. However, today, I see things very different because now the bereavement experience is mine; and not just that of a mother or father or brother or sister or husband or wife or some other family member or a friend. No, a 24 year old son that had his whole life in front of him and now he is no more. Now I know precisely the emotions, the feelings, the pain, the sorrow, the loss of what death and bereavement is all about. And I also know how the emotion of anger against YHWH can quietly slip into the mind, if allowed to. But rather than entertain the spirit of anger in the midst of pain, I am trying hard in my pain to see things in a different light. As my son Jonathan said and expressed many times, "if you don't like the outlook of your day or you don't like how you feel, then change your program." Thus, with the pain of bereavement and death we indeed have another program that we can hook up to; that is our biblical hope in the divine decree of resurrection, which is taught in many places of the Tanakh and the Brit HaHadasha. Yes, if we wish to grow beyond the pain that death brings and to go on to survive on many levels - emotional, physical, spiritual - we must not lose hope in the biblical teaching of resurrection; that we, our family, our friends will live again by an eternal and divine decree of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.   

 
On this premise, the fact is that death has only temporary power to inflict a sting but in the end, death is merely a temporary pain and it will in the end yield to the hope of eternal life by the power of the Ruach HaKodesh and the eternal Name Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh (YHWH = Exodus 3:14). In this, I can, I will, I must rest in what our Father in Heaven has decreed for all of his creation. In time, I hope to learn to accept the earthly finality of Jonathan's passing with the optimism that I will see him again in the future. Of course, the pain of knowing that I will not see him again in this life is still quite real and not easily put away from my mind. And working a lot or keeping my mind busy on other concerns and matters is not going to make the pain subside. The only thing that will cure the pain of my soul is the truth that I tell myself and that truth must be based on the words of the Eternal Torah and in my relationship with YHWH through prayer. This being said, I want to thank each and every one of you that are receiving this mailing for helping Dina and I get through the inevitability and pain of something so difficult, real, and tangible - death and bereavement. 

 
Thank you for praying for us. I see your prayers like a natural medication for the soul. YHWH hears you (and hears my prayers too) and in response, He pulls me through the throbbing aches and pains of what the soul is experiencing where no human eye can see. Again, thank you my dear friends and family in the faith. I don't expect the pain to go away tomorrow but I know that tomorrow and next week and next month and next year will slowly form a basis for my healing. Time is a beautiful salve for the soul. Never let us show contempt for it. YHWH created it for our good. Likewise, is it any wonder that YHWH uses time and a lot of mercy as primary ingredients to lead us to repentance; to heal our pains; to fix our broken relationships with others; to make us whole? 
 
Now, for a little background into the short life of my son...
 
Just days after his 18th birthday in March of 2003, Dina and I took Jonathan with us and made our move from America to Israel. In Hebrew, this is called Aliyah. In December of 2003, Jonathan was inducted into the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and served in an elite unit called Tzanchanim or the Paratroopers, unit 101. Jonathan was intellectually brilliant. His ability to learn and communicate in Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and English was absolutely astounding to me. Jonathan had an awesome mind and a good heart. Of course, in some cases, all of this got him into trouble. He had lots of friends but also made a few enemies along the way. He served in the Israeli army with dignity and dedication. 
 
I recall one very special and tender moment when Jonathan returned home from a couple of difficult weeks in Gaza when his Army unit was deployed by then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to help eradicate 9,000 Jewish residents from their homes in a move of "peace" with the Palestinians. Though following orders and performing his duty as a soldier of the IDF, Jonathan was deeply distressed over this whole affair. Upon returning home, I could hear our front door open. I then came out of my office to greet Jonathan. However, he said not a word to me. Instead, with his face streaming with tears, he flung his arms around my neck and shoulders and with a quiet gut-wrenching sobbing; he just clung to me for perhaps five minutes. After calming down, he told me of the horrible things that he had to do by orders of his commanders and what he experienced in that event was nothing short of emotional trauma. This was in August of 2005. 
 
Later, in March of 2006 one of Jonathan's friends and a paratrooper comrade - Yosef Goodman, 20, of Efrat (just south of Jerusalem) died in a parachuting accident. Yosef had saved the life of one of his commanders when their parachute became entangled. The death of Yosef Goodman was very difficult on my son, because they were good friends and were in training together in the IDF; then came July 2006. 
 
Jonathan and his paratroopers unit 101 were deployed to fight in Israel's second Lebanon War. While positioned in a building in the town of Bint Jbeil with his IDF friends and comrades Jonathan Einhorn 22, and Michael Levine 21, a Hezbollah rocket propelled grenade (RPG) came crashing through the wall. The subsequent explosion caused the death of Einhorn and Levine. However, my beloved Jonathan's life was spared, though being violently thrown down with a small concussion and with some temporary hearing loss and shrapnel wounds to his arms. He was airlifted to Haifa's Rambam Hospital where he recovered and was released. In the months that followed, Jonathan went several times to the graves of his friends and comrades Einhorn and Levine, who are buried at the Mount Herzl cemetery in Jerusalem. He would stand over their graves and say to his friends, "Why you and not me?" A friend of our family - Tziki Aud of the Jewish Agency here in Israel, who had helped Jonathan tremendously said in an encounter with Jonathan, "Last Saturday Yonatan came to me after returning from battle in Bint Jbeil. He had a very difficult experience there and said that he didn't want to go back until he said goodbye to all his friends. He was traumatized by what he experienced there."
 
In December 2006, my Jonathan was honorably discharged from the IDF and tried to enter a normal civilian life within Israeli society. But, he was so emotionally, physically, and spiritually scarred from seeing and participating in the pain and suffering of Israel's political wars; the loss of a number of his personal friends and comrades; the difficulty in trying to understand and make sense of the overall craziness of life in Israel, which is not easy to deal with on a daily basis. With all this and years of going through so much pain here, the balance of 2006 and the whole of 2007 took its toll on my son's mind as he began to show some serious signs of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). I tried (and others tried) to get him some professional help here but he continually refused it, saying he was fine. But, he wasn't fine. He was in deep emotional pain. He left Israel for a few months, taking a short-term managerial job with an Israeli company in the Philippines. Later in mid 2007, he returned to Israel. I put him to work with me doing some video production here and he just had a difficult time staying focused on the work that I had given him to do and was with great difficultly struggling with remaining emotional stable. On the outside he appeared sane and in control but inside, he was a wreck and I could see it as his father; I could see quite clearly that he was in pain and I tried to help on many levels, but to no avail. Meanwhile, his behavior became somewhat estranged from me and erratic over the weeks and months. Nonetheless, I continued to love him and tried to help him but it became clear to me that he needed to find some help; professional help that was beyond my ability to give to him. 

 
Finally, in early 2008, Yoni came to me and said that he was going to return to the USA, to live with some family that I have in New York. I gave him a big fatherly hug and some traveling cash and told him not to become a stranger to us and that I wanted to see him again soon and that I would be here for him anytime that he needed me. Yoni told me and Dina that he was leaving Israel to get some peace of mind and to get his life put back together and to find some emotional stability. 
 
As a father, I had so much wanted to stay closely in contact with him but I felt that I had to refrain from this and give him the emotional space that he needed in order to help him find his meaning and purpose in life and to put his life in order. It was a deep struggle within me; should I continue communication with my son while I was in Israel and he was in New York or should I leave him a space of time to find healing and to just know that I was here in the background if he needed me? I did however, stay abreast of some of his activities through family members. In the end, my decision was to give him the space of time that he needed to find meaning and purpose in life and to remain quietly and lovingly in the background. Nonetheless, I prayed fervently and regularly for him to find YHWH, His Torah, happiness, success and all good in life. In not contacting him for quite some time I had to come to accept that perhaps it would be a couple of years or more before he might be ready to reestablish communication and a relationship with me. To me, I was hoping for an outcome that resembles Yeshua's parable of the prodigal son and I had hopes that Yoni would return to meet me half way in life before I would get too old and that I would have the opportunity to embrace him in a restoration at some point in the near future. 
 
This kind of thing did in fact happen once before at the festival of Yom Teruah ("Rosh HaShanah") 2004, after another temporary strained time in our relationship. Yoni came home from the Army and on the festival of Yom Teruah, he called me aside and face-to-face, he looked me in the eyes closely and deeply apologized for all of our father/son miscommunications and issues and told me how much he loved me and appreciated me for bringing him to Israel the year prior and for all the good that Dina and I had done for him. With tears in his eyes and in mine, we were together wonderfully moved to heal the things that we had between us. This, I must say, was the best day of my life here in Israel. 
 
I attended his paratrooper's induction at the Jerusalem Kotel (Western Wall), the celebration of his 90 km masa tishim (basic training mountain hike) and finally, his military graduation from paratrooper training. Between 2004 and 2005, life was good for Yoni, between us, his friends, his family and he seemed to appreciate all that he had in the way of meaning and purpose in life. But in late 2005 and all of 2006, in the years of Israel's intense political wars, military and societal upheavals, Yoni began to deteriorate and show signs of becoming worn down emotionally because the secular state of Israel is a very difficult place to live. As a sidebar, this is one of those "Giants in the Land" metaphorically and without a firm focus on and in YHWH as our King, our Protector, our Hope, our Master of Heaven and Earth, our Savior, our Direction, our Life - this land can be a source of consternation and distress that devours its inhabitants. I've seen it happen many times. However, with a focus and trust on and in YHWH, I have also seen that we can overcome these "giants" but it takes a personal measure of internal faith and fortitude, which is why Dina and I appreciate all your prayer support on a regular basis. And furthermore, this is why you must know that if you wish to move to and live in Israel, it is highly important that you allow yourself to be faithful to YHWH and you must desire to keep and obey His eternal Torah otherwise, you may not survive this harsh environment. I'm not saying that you must be perfect in your faith and Torah obedience. What I am saying is that this land has plenty of giants in a metaphoric sense and it is a land where light and darkness collide on a daily basis. One must stay focused on divine truth with the help of YHWH. 
 
For my son Yoni with his struggling faith, it was hard enough for him to find YHWH and His Torah here in the Land, which to this day, remains a common problem for our young men and women in these end times and what is more truthful is that it is even more of a fight for our sons and daughters of the exile to find faith and hope in YHWH and His Torah in lands that are not Eretz Israel. As a result, my heart goes out to each of you that have strained relationships with your sons and daughters over issues that are so common to the Exile; issues that have a tendency to pull you and them in directions that are contrary to what the Torah teaches. This is why it is important to practice what the Torah teaches in exile (to the best of your knowledge and ability) so that when you arrive here in the land where spiritual light and darkness violently collide, you will hopefully remain steadfast and unmovable to the powers that run wildly free, to and fro in this land - powers that are both unseen and seen. 
 
Though my beloved Jonathan was struggling here in the land on many levels, his faith in YHWH and in His Torah was clouded over at times; yet at other times, he was so incredibly spiritual and trusting in the Name and I could see his internal struggle. Sometimes, my son could tell you the secrets of the universe and at other times, he was not sure of anything. But, one thing he was sure of: he hated the religion of the Arabs, not the Arabs themselves. He saw them as very troubled. Regardless, Yoni loved YHWH in his own intellectual and emotional way and loved Israel deep down and I know that he loved his people - the Jewish people. By his own admission, Jonathan said that he wanted to return to Israel, settle down and raise children on a Moshav here and that his experiences with the IDF was all good, despite all his complaining about it for three years. I know that his heart was good even though life here was difficult for him. For reasons known only to YHWH, Yoni's heart stopped beating in his sleep on September 5, 2009 while a resident at a special homeless shelter in Westchester County, New York. 
 
I suppose if I could turn back the hands of time and return to stories about when he was a boy and then a young man and tell you of all the events and experiences that we had as a family, it would be pages and pages of material and I would actually very much enjoy doing this not just for your reading and understanding but also for my own sake of helping me to deal with his loss. But at this point, I am going to bring all this to a close because I feel that I have made the salient points that I wanted to make in this mailing. Suffice to say, I am blessed to have had a son like Jonathan and I'm blessed to have a mind to be able to recall so much of my son's life and the memories that we made together with his mother and sister in the 1980's and 90's. We did so much as a family and I can still see my son's inquisitive mind racing for answers to life's most difficult questions and his keen ability to be able to give you a conversation worth listening to. 
 
In truth, my fondest memory of him was in making Aliyah to Israel in 2003. I so much wanted him to live in Israel and find himself here but it is clear now that this was not the will of YHWH. In retrospect, I hope and trust that in the great resurrection, he will return to this Land in all its future glory, along with all of you who yearn for the fulfillment of the biblical prophecies of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings - the Tanakh and the Brit HaHadasha. 
 
Indeed, I could go on and on extolling the life of my son Jonathan Benjamin Marcus and go on writing profusely about all that he did and said from childhood to adulthood but at this point, I am going to end this missive to you and let his sweet memories settle into my soul. To each of you reading this mail, I want to say THANK YOU - TODA RABA L'CHEM, for your love, your kindnesses, your generosity, your concerns, your prayers, for all that you have said and done for Dina and me. I am deeply honored, though I feel unworthy. I am deeply moved and touched with so much love and compassion, though feeling incredibly overwhelmed emotionally and spiritually. In the meantime, I am going to simply tuck Yoni's memories away into my heart and mind and I must try to learn to accept the fact that as I grow old and grey, I will not ever see him again in this life; but I have a hope that I will see him in the life of the world to come. This is my expectation and my prayer to YHWH. 
 
May each of you that have also had to bury family members and loved ones find solace and comfort in your pain of loss and may you too find hope in knowing that we don't have to be angry because YHWH is Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh - the GREAT I AM, that WAS, that IS, that WILL BE FOREVER. He is in full control of all things both seen and unseen to the human eye. May our hearts together be knit as one in the Name YHWH and in His Anointed Prophet like Moshe -- Yeshua ben Yosef, ben David, ben Yah. 
 
Take care and Shalom from Jerusalem
B'shem YHWH, Elohei Avraham, v'Yitzchak v'Ya'acov
 
Avinoam ben Mordechai Marcus
Jerusalem
City of the Great King, Forever. 





_________________________________________________________________
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Sep 15 10:40:37 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:40:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus
In-Reply-To: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
References: <59CA1D161BDA4EDDACEC0EA4A707784F@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <1355E6E82DE74CBCA2916E24B66AA1C2@bettylaptop>

How deeply moving, Marvin!  Thanks so much for sharing Jonathan's story thru
the eyes of his father.  Did you just run across this story, or was this a
personal friend or contact of yours?  Regardless, it was special and touch a
chord deep in my heart.

 

Toda Rabba,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:12 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Death and Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus

 

 



DEATH AND LIFE OF 

JONATHAN BENJAMIN MARCUS - son of Avi ben Mordechai


 



The Pain of Death and the Joy of Life: Coping with bereavement and some
background concerning the Life of Jonathan Benjamin Marcus - March 26, 1985
- September 5, 2009


 



 Jonathan A <http://www.m7000.com/Yoni/Yoni3.jpg>  

Shalom from Jerusalem, Israel to each of you receiving this mailing
 
Today, September 14, 2009 marks the 10th day since the death of my beloved
24-year old son Jonathan Benjamin (Yoni) Marcus. 

 

On Shabbat morning September 5, Yoni was called to the All Eternal One of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His body was found peacefully asleep in his bed.
He will be missed terribly by family and friends alike. 
 
To each of you that are receiving this email from me, I deeply wish to thank
you for sending your sincere words of strength and encouragement in this
time of loss and grief and informing me of your heartfelt prayer support.
Additionally, there were a number of people that went beyond all this and
financially as able, helped Dina and me bear the not-so-easy costs of the
funeral expenses and for this, we are sincerely grateful beyond words. 
 
Death, in whatever language of the world, is a word that we have all come to
know intellectually because where life has been given, certainly death is
also divinely decreed; the biblical words of Genesis chapter three are
painfully true and we all know it; it is a set law of heaven: where there is
life, there is also death. When death comes to call on our family and
friends and yes, even to us...it naturally leaves within its wake, a sting
for the survivors; a pain that throbs and does not easily go away.
Consequently, to those who lose loved ones and are the survivors of the
heartbreak, we can be sure that we will never be the same. What we once can
say that we knew intellectually now becomes something that we know
first-hand. Intellectual knowledge turns into experiential knowledge and
naturally, this is where the hurt and the pain is the greatest. 

 

I can't even count how many times I've tried to identify with the pain of
someone else's loss of a family member or a friend and yet in trying to
identify with the person suffering the loss, I always felt that my
intellectual knowledge got in the way. My words, sympathies and condolences
were always coming up short and were always insufficient because the true
experience was not mine. Then after a period of time, perhaps a week or a
few weeks or even a month at the most, I would always expect that the one in
mourning would no longer be mourning because in truth, time has a way of
erasing pain - that is intellectually. However, today, I see things very
different because now the bereavement experience is mine; and not just that
of a mother or father or brother or sister or husband or wife or some other
family member or a friend. No, a 24 year old son that had his whole life in
front of him and now he is no more. Now I know precisely the emotions, the
feelings, the pain, the sorrow, the loss of what death and bereavement is
all about. And I also know how the emotion of anger against YHWH can quietly
slip into the mind, if allowed to. But rather than entertain the spirit of
anger in the midst of pain, I am trying hard in my pain to see things in a
different light. As my son Jonathan said and expressed many times, "if you
don't like the outlook of your day or you don't like how you feel, then
change your program." Thus, with the pain of bereavement and death we indeed
have another program that we can hook up to; that is our biblical hope in
the divine decree of resurrection, which is taught in many places of the
Tanakh and the Brit HaHadasha. Yes, if we wish to grow beyond the pain that
death brings and to go on to survive on many levels - emotional, physical,
spiritual - we must not lose hope in the biblical teaching of resurrection;
that we, our family, our friends will live again by an eternal and divine
decree of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.   

 

On this premise, the fact is that death has only temporary power to inflict
a sting but in the end, death is merely a temporary pain and it will in the
end yield to the hope of eternal life by the power of the Ruach HaKodesh and
the eternal Name Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh (YHWH = Exodus 3:14). In this, I can, I
will, I must rest in what our Father in Heaven has decreed for all of his
creation. In time, I hope to learn to accept the earthly finality of
Jonathan's passing with the optimism that I will see him again in the
future. Of course, the pain of knowing that I will not see him again in this
life is still quite real and not easily put away from my mind. And working a
lot or keeping my mind busy on other concerns and matters is not going to
make the pain subside. The only thing that will cure the pain of my soul is
the truth that I tell myself and that truth must be based on the words of
the Eternal Torah and in my relationship with YHWH through prayer. This
being said, I want to thank each and every one of you that are receiving
this mailing for helping Dina and I get through the inevitability and pain
of something so difficult, real, and tangible - death and bereavement. 

 

Thank you for praying for us. I see your prayers like a natural medication
for the soul. YHWH hears you (and hears my prayers too) and in response, He
pulls me through the throbbing aches and pains of what the soul is
experiencing where no human eye can see. Again, thank you my dear friends
and family in the faith. I don't expect the pain to go away tomorrow but I
know that tomorrow and next week and next month and next year will slowly
form a basis for my healing. Time is a beautiful salve for the soul. Never
let us show contempt for it. YHWH created it for our good. Likewise, is it
any wonder that YHWH uses time and a lot of mercy as primary ingredients to
lead us to repentance; to heal our pains; to fix our broken relationships
with others; to make us whole? 
 
Now, for a little background into the short life of my son...
 
Just days after his 18th birthday in March of 2003, Dina and I took Jonathan
with us and made our move from America to Israel. In Hebrew, this is called
Aliyah. In December of 2003, Jonathan was inducted into the IDF (Israeli
Defense Forces) and served in an elite unit called Tzanchanim or the
Paratroopers, unit 101. Jonathan was intellectually brilliant. His ability
to learn and communicate in Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and English was
absolutely astounding to me. Jonathan had an awesome mind and a good heart.
Of course, in some cases, all of this got him into trouble. He had lots of
friends but also made a few enemies along the way. He served in the Israeli
army with dignity and dedication. 
 
I recall one very special and tender moment when Jonathan returned home from
a couple of difficult weeks in Gaza when his Army unit was deployed by then
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to help eradicate 9,000 Jewish residents from
their homes in a move of "peace" with the Palestinians. Though following
orders and performing his duty as a soldier of the IDF, Jonathan was deeply
distressed over this whole affair. Upon returning home, I could hear our
front door open. I then came out of my office to greet Jonathan. However, he
said not a word to me. Instead, with his face streaming with tears, he flung
his arms around my neck and shoulders and with a quiet gut-wrenching
sobbing; he just clung to me for perhaps five minutes. After calming down,
he told me of the horrible things that he had to do by orders of his
commanders and what he experienced in that event was nothing short of
emotional trauma. This was in August of 2005. 
 
Later, in March of 2006 one of Jonathan's friends and a paratrooper comrade
- Yosef Goodman, 20, of Efrat (just south of Jerusalem) died in a
parachuting accident. Yosef had saved the life of one of his commanders when
their parachute became entangled. The death of Yosef Goodman was very
difficult on my son, because they were good friends and were in training
together in the IDF; then came July 2006. 
 
 ACU1 <http://www.m7000.com/Yoni/Yoni1.jpg> Jonathan and his paratroopers
unit 101 were deployed to fight in Israel's second Lebanon War. While
positioned in a building in the town of Bint Jbeil with his IDF friends and
comrades Jonathan Einhorn 22, and Michael Levine 21, a Hezbollah rocket
propelled grenade (RPG) came crashing through the wall. The subsequent
explosion caused the death of Einhorn and Levine. However, my beloved
Jonathan's life was spared, though being violently thrown down with a small
concussion and with some temporary hearing loss and shrapnel wounds to his
arms. He was airlifted to Haifa's Rambam Hospital where he recovered and was
released. In the months that followed, Jonathan went several times to the
graves of his friends and comrades Einhorn and Levine, who are buried at the
Mount Herzl cemetery in Jerusalem. He would stand over their graves and say
to his friends, "Why you and not me?" A friend of our family - Tziki Aud of
the Jewish Agency here in Israel, who had helped Jonathan tremendously said
in an encounter with Jonathan, "Last Saturday Yonatan came to me after
returning from battle in Bint Jbeil. He had a very difficult experience
there and said that he didn't want to go back until he said goodbye to all
his friends. He was traumatized by what he experienced there."
 
In December 2006, my Jonathan was honorably discharged from the IDF and
tried to enter a normal civilian life within Israeli society. But, he was so
emotionally, physically, and spiritually scarred from seeing and
participating in the pain and suffering of Israel's political wars; the loss
of a number of his personal friends and comrades; the difficulty in trying
to understand and make sense of the overall craziness of life in Israel,
which is not easy to deal with on a daily basis. With all this and years of
going through so much pain here, the balance of 2006 and the whole of 2007
took its toll on my son's mind as he began to show some serious signs of
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). I tried (and others tried) to get him
some professional help here but he continually refused it, saying he was
fine. But, he wasn't fine. He was in deep emotional pain. He left Israel for
a few months, taking a short-term managerial job with an Israeli company in
the Philippines. Later in mid 2007, he returned to Israel. I put him to work
with me doing some video production here and he just had a difficult time
staying focused on the work that I had given him to do and was with great
difficultly struggling with remaining emotional stable. On the outside he
appeared sane and in control but inside, he was a wreck and I could see it
as his father; I could see quite clearly that he was in pain and I tried to
help on many levels, but to no avail. Meanwhile, his behavior became
somewhat estranged from me and erratic over the weeks and months.
Nonetheless, I continued to love him and tried to help him but it became
clear to me that he needed to find some help; professional help that was
beyond my ability to give to him. 

 

Finally, in early 2008, Yoni came to me and said that he was going to return
to the USA, to live with some family that I have in New York. I gave him a
big fatherly hug and some traveling cash and told him not to become a
stranger to us and that I wanted to see him again soon and that I would be
here for him anytime that he needed me. Yoni told me and Dina that he was
leaving Israel to get some peace of mind and to get his life put back
together and to find some emotional stability. 
 
As a father, I had so much wanted to stay closely in contact with him but I
felt that I had to refrain from this and give him the emotional space that
he needed in order to help him find his meaning and purpose in life and to
put his life in order. It was a deep struggle within me; should I continue
communication with my son while I was in Israel and he was in New York or
should I leave him a space of time to find healing and to just know that I
was here in the background if he needed me? I did however, stay abreast of
some of his activities through family members. In the end, my decision was
to give him the space of time that he needed to find meaning and purpose in
life and to remain quietly and lovingly in the background. Nonetheless, I
prayed fervently and regularly for him to find YHWH, His Torah, happiness,
success and all good in life. In not contacting him for quite some time I
had to come to accept that perhaps it would be a couple of years or more
before he might be ready to reestablish communication and a relationship
with me. To me, I was hoping for an outcome that resembles Yeshua's parable
of the prodigal son and I had hopes that Yoni would return to meet me half
way in life before I would get too old and that I would have the opportunity
to embrace him in a restoration at some point in the near future. 
 
This kind of thing did in fact happen once before at the festival of Yom
Teruah ("Rosh HaShanah") 2004, after another temporary strained time in our
relationship. Yoni came home from the Army and on the festival of Yom
Teruah, he called me aside and face-to-face, he looked me in the eyes
closely and deeply apologized for all of our father/son miscommunications
and issues and told me how much he loved me and appreciated me for bringing
him to Israel the year prior and for all the good that Dina and I had done
for him. With tears in his eyes and in mine, we were together wonderfully
moved to heal the things that we had between us. This, I must say, was the
best day of my life here in Israel. 
 
I attended his paratrooper's induction at the Jerusalem Kotel (Western
Wall), the celebration of his 90 km masa tishim (basic training mountain
hike) and finally, his military graduation from paratrooper training.
Between 2004 and 2005, life was good for Yoni, between us, his friends, his
family and he seemed to appreciate all that he had in the way of meaning and
purpose in life. But in late 2005 and all of 2006, in the years of Israel's
intense political wars, military and societal upheavals, Yoni began to
deteriorate and show signs of becoming worn down emotionally because the
secular state of Israel is a very difficult place to live. As a sidebar,
this is one of those "Giants in the Land" metaphorically and without a firm
focus on and in YHWH as our King, our Protector, our Hope, our Master of
Heaven and Earth, our Savior, our Direction, our Life - this land can be a
source of consternation and distress that devours its inhabitants. I've seen
it happen many times. However, with a focus and trust on and in YHWH, I have
also seen that we can overcome these "giants" but it takes a personal
measure of internal faith and fortitude, which is why Dina and I appreciate
all your prayer support on a regular basis. And furthermore, this is why you
must know that if you wish to move to and live in Israel, it is highly
important that you allow yourself to be faithful to YHWH and you must desire
to keep and obey His eternal Torah otherwise, you may not survive this harsh
environment. I'm not saying that you must be perfect in your faith and Torah
obedience. What I am saying is that this land has plenty of giants in a
metaphoric sense and it is a land where light and darkness collide on a
daily basis. One must stay focused on divine truth with the help of YHWH. 
 
For my son Yoni with his struggling faith, it was hard enough for him to
find YHWH and His Torah here in the Land, which to this day, remains a
common problem for our young men and women in these end times and what is
more truthful is that it is even more of a fight for our sons and daughters
of the exile to find faith and hope in YHWH and His Torah in lands that are
not Eretz Israel. As a result, my heart goes out to each of you that have
strained relationships with your sons and daughters over issues that are so
common to the Exile; issues that have a tendency to pull you and them in
directions that are contrary to what the Torah teaches. This is why it is
important to practice what the Torah teaches in exile (to the best of your
knowledge and ability) so that when you arrive here in the land where
spiritual light and darkness violently collide, you will hopefully remain
steadfast and unmovable to the powers that run wildly free, to and fro in
this land - powers that are both unseen and seen. 
 
Though my beloved Jonathan was struggling here in the land on many levels,
his faith in YHWH and in His Torah was clouded over at times; yet at other
times, he was so incredibly spiritual and trusting in the Name and I could
see his internal struggle. Sometimes, my son could tell you the secrets of
the universe and at other times, he was not sure of anything. But, one thing
he was sure of: he hated the religion of the Arabs, not the Arabs
themselves. He saw them as very troubled. Regardless, Yoni loved YHWH in his
own intellectual and emotional way and loved Israel deep down and I know
that he loved his people - the Jewish people. By his own admission, Jonathan
said that he wanted to return to Israel, settle down and raise children on a
Moshav here and that his experiences with the IDF was all good, despite all
his complaining about it for three years. I know that his heart was good
even though life here was difficult for him. For reasons known only to YHWH,
Yoni's heart stopped beating in his sleep on September 5, 2009 while a
resident at a special homeless shelter in Westchester County, New York. 
 
I suppose if I could turn back the hands of time and return to stories about
when he was a boy and then a young man and tell you of all the events and
experiences that we had as a family, it would be pages and pages of material
and I would actually very much enjoy doing this not just for your reading
and understanding but also for my own sake of helping me to deal with his
loss. But at this point, I am going to bring all this to a close because I
feel that I have made the salient points that I wanted to make in this
mailing. Suffice to say, I am blessed to have had a son like Jonathan and
I'm blessed to have a mind to be able to recall so much of my son's life and
the memories that we made together with his mother and sister in the 1980's
and 90's. We did so much as a family and I can still see my son's
inquisitive mind racing for answers to life's most difficult questions and
his keen ability to be able to give you a conversation worth listening to. 
 
In truth, my fondest memory of him was in making Aliyah to Israel in 2003. I
so much wanted him to live in Israel and find himself here but it is clear
now that this was not the will of YHWH. In retrospect, I hope and trust that
in the great resurrection, he will return to this Land in all its future
glory, along with all of you who yearn for the fulfillment of the biblical
prophecies of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings - the Tanakh and the
Brit HaHadasha. 
 
Indeed, I could go on and on extolling the life of my son Jonathan Benjamin
Marcus and go on writing profusely about all that he did and said from
childhood to adulthood but at this point, I am going to end this missive to
you and let his sweet memories settle into my soul. To each of you reading
this mail, I want to say THANK YOU - TODA RABA L'CHEM, for your love, your
kindnesses, your generosity, your concerns, your prayers, for all that you
have said and done for Dina and me. I am deeply honored, though I feel
unworthy. I am deeply moved and touched with so much love and compassion,
though feeling incredibly overwhelmed emotionally and spiritually. In the
meantime, I am going to simply tuck Yoni's memories away into my heart and
mind and I must try to learn to accept the fact that as I grow old and grey,
I will not ever see him again in this life; but I have a hope that I will
see him in the life of the world to come. This is my expectation and my
prayer to YHWH. 
 
May each of you that have also had to bury family members and loved ones
find solace and comfort in your pain of loss and may you too find hope in
knowing that we don't have to be angry because YHWH is Ehiyeh Asher Ehiyeh -
the GREAT I AM, that WAS, that IS, that WILL BE FOREVER. He is in full
control of all things both seen and unseen to the human eye. May our hearts
together be knit as one in the Name YHWH and in His Anointed Prophet like
Moshe -- Yeshua ben Yosef, ben David, ben Yah. 
 
Take care and Shalom from Jerusalem
B'shem YHWH, Elohei Avraham, v'Yitzchak v'Ya'acov
 
Avinoam ben Mordechai Marcus
Jerusalem
City of the Great King, Forever. 



 
<http://rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1102704798847.0.1102033976191.1062&ts=S0413&o=http:
//ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 14:23:50 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:23:50 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] ELUL
In-Reply-To: <1AFD5FE6-48A1-4AD7-84A5-AA66C74E2B3E@earthlink.net>
References: <855590370909140849g5bd0715ubead33395150fcdb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AFD5FE6-48A1-4AD7-84A5-AA66C74E2B3E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <855590370909151223r365cdf3lf73662bc4303a4be@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom to all,

    It has been an extraordinary week, but I am still limited to Internet at
a coffee shop.  Hopefully that will change within the next few weeks.  I
have been overwhelmed with administrative/apartment issues, but should have
it all under control within a few weeks.  Next week will include testing for
an advanced Ulpan (intensive Hebrew study), and *hopefully *- the arrival of
my possessions.

   Hope to write more of the ideological stuff - which is VITAL now, more
then ever.  MUCH to write about...but, please be a bit patient.  I AM still
pinching myself, but will only really begin to believe it when I see my
girls again for Rosh HaShana.  That empty apartment is REALLY empty when
they're in their own places...time for me to begin to grow up, huh?  :-) Am
thinking of taking the
Tour Guide's course.....lots to consider, lots to decide.....little time,
but HaShem is only a local call from Modi'in....I am turning to the ultimate
decision maker to guide me...

  Brachot M'Tzion (blessings from Tzion),

                  *  Hanoch
*

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 4:55 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Dear Hanoch,
> This is a truly amazing piece by Rabbi Kahana. Thank you for sending it on
> to us. I am thinking this might be the first we have heard from you since
> you have "landed in the Land." I need to check the SWW to see if you might
> have posted something there. I look forward, as I know all of us do on this
> list, to hearing about your various adventures, trials, experiences, and
> amazing stories which you always have to share. What a time for you with
> these special days just ahead. YHVH be with you and write us soon if you
> can.
>
> James
>
>
>   On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Hanoch Young wrote:
>
>    *FROM THE DESK OF
> BARBARA GINSBERG
> *
> *Jews and Judaism
> Rabbi Meir Kahane *
>
> *Elul ? September 2,1977*
>
> The Jewish calendar is full of notations, red letter days that are meant to
> be both particular reminders as well as part of a uniform one: Time is
> passing; the sands of life have run out just a bit more; the beard is a
> little grayer and the limbs just a touch heavier. Time. The Jewish calendar
> is a watchman of time, a ram?s horn that blows not once a year but every
> time that a new time cycle begins.
>
> Every week is marked by a Sabbath that notes not only the end of the week
> passed but the beginning of a new one. It is both a reminder of seven full
> days passed out of our life ? so soon! ? as well as the opportunity to make
> the next period fuller, more meaningful, a reason for being.
>
> Every month is marked by a Rosh Chodesh, the consecration of the new
> beginning of yet another lunar cycle. The wheel of heaven has revolved yet
> another thirty days ? so soon! ? and we are that much older. The L-rd now
> gives us another month to prove that we are also that much wiser. It is not
> only another month, it is a new month. Above all, it is called Rosh Chodesh,
> the ?head? of the month. Is there perhaps here a hint to see how much wisdom
> has filled our heads during the mistakes and sins of the past one??
>
> And every year has its Rosh Hashanah, that peculiarly Jewish day in which
> there are no parties and drinking and abandonment of restraint; in which
> there is no hilarious laughter and noise that is a frantic and frenetic
> attempt to convince all (and oneself) that he is happy; there is no frantic
> clutching at pleasure before it escapes and ? worse ? before I pass on; too
> soon, too soon. There is Rosh Hashanah, the time post. Another year gone by
> ? already? So soon! ? and it is a time to see what the gray hairs and the
> added wrinkles and the slower reflexes have taught us. Rosh Hashanah is one
> step closer to the gateway out of this world and into the next one. It is a
> time to rehearse the speech that we will make ? all of us ? some day, before
> the Supreme courts, as we attempt to explain the meaning of our lives below.
> Life is too short for fools. It is too long for those who know it was not
> given for happiness (if that comes, how wonderful, but how often does it
> appear, only in insignificant measures and at rare times, as drops of rain
> that fall on a parched desert leaving no impact, changing nothing so that
> the traveler never knows it fell). Life was given for holiness and sanctity,
> so that we might rise above ourselves; so that we might consecrate and
> hallow that animalism within us that threatens at every moment to escape and
> express itself in selfishness, ego and greed ? sins that are themselves only
> the corridors to the crimes of cruelty and hurting others. Life is not a
> happy thing ? it s a beautiful thing, and when one becomes the artist and
> artisan of that beauty that is called holiness, when one practices the
> supreme holiness that comes of loving and giving of oneself.
>
> Elul is the month of shove, return and introspection. It is the month of
> scraping away the ego that has settled and crusted on our hearts and souls.
> If Passover calls for searching out the leaven in the home, Elul decrees
> removing it ? yeasty and bloated ego ? from the soul. It is a time to note
> the calendar, the graying and aging, and to realize: Not for nonsense was I
> born and not with nonsense must they bury me.
>
> Be good. Love. Love selflessly; cease speaking evil, cease thinking evil;
> cease searching out evil in your fellow human beings. Cease seeking to grow
> at the expense of others. For one who climbs on top of the man he has just
> chopped down is not taller. He is the same dwarf standing on his victim?s
> height. Be wary lest you hurt the one you love. Think before you act towards
> the other person. Be good as a person, as an individual, and your part of
> the world has become holy. Then, if others emulate you, the world will
> suddenly and automatically turn beautiful and hallowed. It is Elul. Think of
> your beloved ? all the people of the earth ? and think of your particular
> beloved. Give of yourself and you will receive that which no amount of
> grasping and scheming can bring you; self-respect. Love the other and you
> will learn to like yourself. Be holy, for the One who made you is Holy and
> for this He placed you on this earth. It is another Elul, yet another one.
> How many more are left?
>
> *Anyone reading this Rav Kahane article and is not on my personal list to
> receive the weekly articles written by Rav Kahane and would like to be,
> please contact me at:*
> *barhow at netvision.net.il  *
> * *
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 16 06:46:38 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:46:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Daily Dose of Kindness
References: <F63C2F67DBAE4C488FBE9CD6558AEE1E@ShmuelPC>
Message-ID: <D921EA52-FAE8-47E4-9D31-394F94F7CFA3@earthlink.net>

I wonder if any of you are aware Shmuel Greenbaum and his efforts  
described below. I received this just this morning and spent some time  
browsing the Web site: http://partnersinkindness.org and found it  
incredibly moving. I remember very well the bombing at the pizza place  
on Jaffa road in 2001 but I had not heard of the response and  
subsequent efforts of this widower who lost his wife Shoshana to find  
kindness in our world of darkness and light.

I just subscribed to the e-mail newsletter called "Kind Words" and I  
am going to order this book today and look forward to reading it over  
the holydays. Ross Nichols and I have talked a lot about YHVH's self- 
proclaimed "character description" in Exodus 34:5-7 (see my full  
discussion in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, pp. 23-26). In that formulaic  
statement, subsequently repeated in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings,  
YHVH is described as both Rav-Chesed and Notzer Chesed--full of loving- 
kindness and "keeping" kindness. In my studies of the word Chesed I  
have come to the view that we have no precise English equivalent. Our  
English world "love" is unfortunately used in so many ways that it can  
hardly serve to carry much specific meaning. "Kindness" works quite  
well I think, but perhaps the notion of loyal-kindness should be  
included--thus "keeping" kindness, or even "guarding" kindness. It is  
not feelings alone, but something that involves work, commitment, and  
action.

Anyway, I wanted to share this with all of you and if you have time to  
browse the Web site you will be blessed today.

Kol Tov,

James Tabor





Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Mr Shmuel Greenbaum" <shmuelgreenbaum at verizon.net>
> Date: September 16, 2009 5:05:43 AM EDT
> To: <jdtabor at uncc.edu>
> Subject: Seeing the Good in a World that Focuses on the Bad
>
>
> Seeing the Good in a World that
> Focuses on the Bad
> A Daily Dose of Kindness
> By Shmuel Greenbaum
>
>
> Every week a Moslem man in Singapore forwards an e-mail to his co- 
> religionists in that Asian island nation...  An Evangelical  
> Christian couple in Texas makes photocopies of it and gives them to  
> all the members of their church and female prisoners throughout the  
> Lone Star State? A Catholic Pastoral Counselor reads it to patients  
> at a hospital inPeoria, Illinois?  The principal of a Jewish high  
> school in Chicago tacks it to a bulletin board? While atheists  
> throughout the world forward it to their friends and loved ones.
>
> It all started on a hot summer day in 2001 when a young man carrying  
> a guitar case walked into a crowded Jerusalemrestaurant and  
> detonated a bomb, killing himself and 27 other people. One of them  
> was my wife, Shoshana, who was pregnant with our first child.
>
> I had been the happiest man in the world married to the most  
> wonderful woman in the world.  We had just moved into a new home and  
> our heads were filled with wonderful dreams.  Then in an instant I  
> became the loneliest man in the world.  I lived in fear that  
> terrorists would track me down and kill me and perhaps kill hundreds  
> of people in the United States as they had my wife and my unborn  
> child.
>
> What pulled me through this tragedy were the people who were there  
> for me in my darkest hours?the friends and relatives who supported  
> me with my physical and emotional needs and the strangers who opened  
> their hearts to relieve my burdens.
>
> My parents stayed with me for a few weeks to help me get readjusted  
> to life after the tragedy.  As soon as they left families in my  
> community invited me to join them for dinner every night of the week  
> so that I would not feel lonely.
>
> During the traditional week of mourning, close to a thousand people  
> came to comfort me. Hundreds of them were students, parents and  
> friends whose lives were enriched by my wife in so many different  
> ways. They told me how she had comforted them by telling them that  
> ?There is good in every bad.? And so it is?in tragedy, there is  
> opportunity to reach out to others and to turn something ?bad? into  
> something good and meaningful.
>
> Partners in Kindness
>
> On January 1, 2002, four months after Shoshana?s murder, I met with  
> a group of friends in my community to discuss what we could do to  
> make the world a better place. We decided to start a daily email  
> newsletter to offer readers stories of kindness. We called the  
> newsletter A Daily Dose of Kindness and our organization Partners in  
> Kindness.
>
> After a few months, we introduced a second email called Kind Words,  
> which was syndicated, free of charge, around the world. In addition  
> to stories, these emails also contained scientific insights on  
> kindness and sensitivity enhancement techniques.
>
> The emails spread far and wide. During the first five years,  
> Partners in Kindness had granted permission for our stories and  
> kindness techniques to appear in eight languages in print and  
> electronic media reaching a circulation of more than 1.5 million  
> readers on six continents.
>
> Seeing Good; Doing Good; Feeling Good
>
> When the news on TV, on the radio, and in the newspapers is filled  
> with violence, we feel helpless and depressed. We lose faith in  
> humanity and feel there is nothing that we can do to make the world  
> better. Some readers tell us that our emails help them to forget  
> about the bad and just focus on the good. Anne from California  
> explains:
>
> I had just read several news reports of what is going on in the  
> world and they had had a rather depressing effect on me. Then I read  
> your "kindness" column, and it just lifted me up, once again, to be  
> reading about the good things people are doing for each other in a  
> world that seems to concentrate on the bad.
>
> Our first book, A Daily Dose of Kindness, represents the best of  
> these e-mails.  The book contains diverse stories aboutIsrael  
> submitted from one hundred contributors. A Daily Dose of Kindness is  
> the result of the collaboration of hundreds of volunteers and  
> financial supporters of many different religions and nationalities.  
> These stories of caring may bring new hope to Israel, the Middle  
> East and the world.
>
> The emails empower readers to not only tackle their own problems,  
> but to reach out and make the world better.
>
> A few months after we started sending out our kindness emails?less  
> than a year after September 11?a large Moslem charity in Kuwait  
> contacted us and asked permission to forward our stories throughout  
> their country.
>
> As Julia Bail of Washington, D.C. comments, ?Reading the Kindness  
> letters . . . gives me more hope for mankind than anything else in  
> my life.?
>
> Speaking
>
> When I have the opportunity to speak, I rivet my audience?s  
> attention through stories and audience participation. Participants  
> come away feeling very positive and excited about doing something  
> great. My excitement for kindness is infectious, as this student  
> from New York City?s Stuyvesant High School explains:
>
> I was expecting to attend the lecture given by Shmuel Greenbaum for  
> one period. I ended up staying for four. It is so uplifting, so  
> enlightening, so refreshing to hear someone like him talk, to simply  
> bubble over with excitement at the thought of doing good in the  
> world. He is in his way a role model to us all. You think to  
> yourself, ?If only everyone else could practice kindness in the way  
> that Shmuel Greenbaum has, the world would truly be a better place.?
>
> For more information about our free e-mails, our book and speaking  
> engagements visit www.PartnersInKindness.orgor e-mail info at PartnersInKindness.org
>
> 5400

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 16 07:09:27 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:09:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch Home
Message-ID: <59A81044-5D82-4255-B14A-EE6CD935DC91@earthlink.net>

I found these photos of Hanoch's homecoming to Israel on Facebook,  
though you would all enjoy them:

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Sep 16 22:43:32 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:43:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Daily Dose of Kindness
In-Reply-To: <D921EA52-FAE8-47E4-9D31-394F94F7CFA3@earthlink.net>
References: <F63C2F67DBAE4C488FBE9CD6558AEE1E@ShmuelPC>
	<D921EA52-FAE8-47E4-9D31-394F94F7CFA3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F4BFCC02067E4B1B89AAE9BB15CFA8A8@bettylaptop>

Thanks so much for this, James.  Yes, it is incredibly moving and such a
need in our world!  I am looking forward to the emails and to receiving and
enjoying the book as well.

The section in Exodus where HaShem gives His own "character description" is
indeed powerful, and I never cease to be moved when I read it.  I just got
out your RAF book and re-read your description of the scene in pp 23-26 and
was moved again. 

If I remember correctly these verses in Ex 34:5-7 have a prominent role in
the Rosh Hashanah services.  The melody with its beautiful Hebraic chanting
is so simple, yet so concretely moving.hard to explain.it just gets into
one's heart and spirit.they say that music is the language of the soul and I
believe it.

 

Again thanks for this beautiful "gem!"

 

Shana Tova,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: shmuelgreenbaum at verizon.net
Subject: [Dialogue] A Daily Dose of Kindness

 

I wonder if any of you are aware Shmuel Greenbaum and his efforts described
below. I received this just this morning and spent some time browsing the
Web site: http://partnersinkindness.org and found it incredibly moving. I
remember very well the bombing at the pizza place on Jaffa road in 2001 but
I had not heard of the response and subsequent efforts of this widower who
lost his wife Shoshana to find kindness in our world of darkness and light.

 

I just subscribed to the e-mail newsletter called "Kind Words" and I am
going to order this book today and look forward to reading it over the
holydays. Ross Nichols and I have talked a lot about YHVH's self-proclaimed
"character description" in Exodus 34:5-7 (see my full discussion in
Restoring Abrahamic Faith, pp. 23-26). In that formulaic statement,
subsequently repeated in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, YHVH is
described as both Rav-Chesed and Notzer Chesed--full of loving-kindness and
"keeping" kindness. In my studies of the word Chesed I have come to the view
that we have no precise English equivalent. Our English world "love" is
unfortunately used in so many ways that it can hardly serve to carry much
specific meaning. "Kindness" works quite well I think, but perhaps the
notion of loyal-kindness should be included--thus "keeping" kindness, or
even "guarding" kindness. It is not feelings alone, but something that
involves work, commitment, and action.

 

Anyway, I wanted to share this with all of you and if you have time to
browse the Web site you will be blessed today.

 

Kol Tov,

 

James Tabor

 

 

 

 

 

Begin forwarded message:





From: "Mr Shmuel Greenbaum" <shmuelgreenbaum at verizon.net>

Date: September 16, 2009 5:05:43 AM EDT

To: <jdtabor at uncc.edu>

Subject: Seeing the Good in a World that Focuses on the Bad

 

 

Seeing the Good in a World that

Focuses on the Bad

A Daily Dose of Kindness

By Shmuel Greenbaum

 

 

Every week a Moslem man in Singapore forwards an e-mail to his
co-religionists in that Asian island nation...  An Evangelical Christian
couple in Texas makes photocopies of it and gives them to all the members of
their church and female prisoners throughout the Lone Star State. A Catholic
Pastoral Counselor reads it to patients at a hospital inPeoria, Illinois.
The principal of a Jewish high school in Chicago tacks it to a bulletin
board. While atheists throughout the world forward it to their friends and
loved ones.

 

It all started on a hot summer day in 2001 when a young man carrying a
guitar case walked into a crowded Jerusalemrestaurant and detonated a bomb,
killing himself and 27 other people. One of them was my wife, Shoshana, who
was pregnant with our first child. 

 

I had been the happiest man in the world married to the most wonderful woman
in the world.  We had just moved into a new home and our heads were filled
with wonderful dreams.  Then in an instant I became the loneliest man in the
world.  I lived in fear that terrorists would track me down and kill me and
perhaps kill hundreds of people in the United States as they had my wife and
my unborn child.

 

What pulled me through this tragedy were the people who were there for me in
my darkest hours-the friends and relatives who supported me with my physical
and emotional needs and the strangers who opened their hearts to relieve my
burdens.

 

My parents stayed with me for a few weeks to help me get readjusted to life
after the tragedy.  As soon as they left families in my community invited me
to join them for dinner every night of the week so that I would not feel
lonely. 

 

During the traditional week of mourning, close to a thousand people came to
comfort me. Hundreds of them were students, parents and friends whose lives
were enriched by my wife in so many different ways. They told me how she had
comforted them by telling them that "There is good in every bad." And so it
is-in tragedy, there is opportunity to reach out to others and to turn
something "bad" into something good and meaningful.

 

Partners in Kindness

 

On January 1, 2002, four months after Shoshana's murder, I met with a group
of friends in my community to discuss what we could do to make the world a
better place. We decided to start a daily email newsletter to offer readers
stories of kindness. We called the newsletter A Daily Dose of Kindness and
our organization Partners in Kindness.

 

After a few months, we introduced a second email called Kind Words, which
was syndicated, free of charge, around the world. In addition to stories,
these emails also contained scientific insights on kindness and sensitivity
enhancement techniques.

 

The emails spread far and wide. During the first five years, Partners in
Kindness had granted permission for our stories and kindness techniques to
appear in eight languages in print and electronic media reaching a
circulation of more than 1.5 million readers on six continents.

 

Seeing Good; Doing Good; Feeling Good

 

When the news on TV, on the radio, and in the newspapers is filled with
violence, we feel helpless and depressed. We lose faith in humanity and feel
there is nothing that we can do to make the world better. Some readers tell
us that our emails help them to forget about the bad and just focus on the
good. Anne from California explains:

 

I had just read several news reports of what is going on in the world and
they had had a rather depressing effect on me. Then I read your "kindness"
column, and it just lifted me up, once again, to be reading about the good
things people are doing for each other in a world that seems to concentrate
on the bad.

 

Our first book, A Daily Dose of Kindness, represents the best of these
e-mails.  The book contains diverse stories aboutIsrael submitted from one
hundred contributors. A Daily Dose of Kindness is the result of the
collaboration of hundreds of volunteers and financial supporters of many
different religions and nationalities. These stories of caring may bring new
hope to Israel, the Middle East and the world.

 

The emails empower readers to not only tackle their own problems, but to
reach out and make the world better.

 

A few months after we started sending out our kindness emails-less than a
year after September 11-a large Moslem charity in Kuwait contacted us and
asked permission to forward our stories throughout their country.

 

As Julia Bail of Washington, D.C. comments, "Reading the Kindness letters .
. . gives me more hope for mankind than anything else in my life."

 

Speaking

 

When I have the opportunity to speak, I rivet my audience's attention
through stories and audience participation. Participants come away feeling
very positive and excited about doing something great. My excitement for
kindness is infectious, as this student from New York City's Stuyvesant High
School explains:

 

I was expecting to attend the lecture given by Shmuel Greenbaum for one
period. I ended up staying for four. It is so uplifting, so enlightening, so
refreshing to hear someone like him talk, to simply bubble over with
excitement at the thought of doing good in the world. He is in his way a
role model to us all. You think to yourself, "If only everyone else could
practice kindness in the way that Shmuel Greenbaum has, the world would
truly be a better place."

 

For more information about our free e-mails, our book and speaking
engagements visit  <http://www.partnersinkindness.org/>
www.PartnersInKindness.orgor e-mail  <mailto:info at PartnersInKindness.org>
info at PartnersInKindness.org

 

5400

 

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 17 07:57:10 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:57:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
Message-ID: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net>

My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St.  
Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will be  
there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to local  
commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the weekend  
but I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be there. From  
what Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be quite amazing  
with more folks coming, and from longer distances, than ever in the  
past. You can find information and details at http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html 
, and though it is too late to enroll in the meal plans at the  
campsite I am sure attending the weekend events is still open if any  
of you are on the fence and might decide to join us.

Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going  
to be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this  
one is "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back  
in the 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the things  
I have done over the years this one has received the most interest and  
attention. I have a book planned by this title for late 2010--after  
the Paul book comes out in the Spring--I hope around Sukkoth next  
year, but at Sukkoth this year I want to present an entirely new and  
revised version of that lecture.

My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic  
Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing  
setting for such a topic. It will then be available for downloading  
and distribution over the Internet thereafter.

I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In  
the meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom Teru'ah  
this coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that later...from  
both Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.

Shalom,

James

P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider pitching  
in to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in Ross Nichols  
and his group hosting this event. They have taken on a lot of  
responsibility and committed themselves way beyond their individual  
means for the sake of the rest of us, whether coming or just listening  
in from afar. See http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and 
  where you can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  
"Chip In" Logo.


From rossknichols at me.com  Thu Sep 17 10:12:30 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:12:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
In-Reply-To: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>

Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say  
that it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk!  
I can't wait. I will be publishing the full program by this coming  
Sunday.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  
wrote:

> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St.  
> Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will  
> be there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to  
> local commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the  
> weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be  
> there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be  
> quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,  
> than ever in the past. You can find information and details at http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html 
> , and though it is too late to enroll in the meal plans at the  
> campsite I am sure attending the weekend events is still open if any  
> of you are on the fence and might decide to join us.
>
> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going  
> to be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this  
> one is "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back  
> in the 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the  
> things I have done over the years this one has received the most  
> interest and attention. I have a book planned by this title for late  
> 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the Spring--I hope around  
> Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I want to present an  
> entirely new and revised version of that lecture.
>
> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic  
> Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing  
> setting for such a topic. It will then be available for downloading  
> and distribution over the Internet thereafter.
>
> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In  
> the meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom  
> Teru'ah this coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that  
> later...from both Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
>
> Shalom,
>
> James
>
> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider  
> pitching in to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in  
> Ross Nichols and his group hosting this event. They have taken on a  
> lot of responsibility and committed themselves way beyond their  
> individual means for the sake of the rest of us, whether coming or  
> just listening in from afar. See http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and 
>  where you can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  
> "Chip In" Logo.
> _______________________________________________


From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Sep 17 06:27:11 2009
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:27:11 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] SHANA TOVA.
Message-ID: <4AB21D0F.2040508@westnet.com.au>

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 17 10:59:48 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:59:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
In-Reply-To: <C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net>
	<C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
Message-ID: <56DD2633-A945-4A04-B4A4-B99AF133EDD5@earthlink.net>

Glad you are pleased Ross.

This one will be similar but I think much better, more nuanced. I  
should explain also, for our new people, and even those who consider  
themselves "Christian," that what I plan to do in this lecture, and  
the book, is not any kind of attack on Christianity. Rather, what I  
want to offer is a constructive critique of the significant ways in  
which the movement begun by Jesus of Nazareth, that was so thoroughly  
grounded in Hebraic principles, was gradually, by the 2nd century CE,  
taken in completely new directions and set on completely new  
foundations, sealing the separation between synagogue and church  
forever. My lecture will focus not so much on the "who" as the "what,"  
in other words, how the ideas shifted, no matter what Paul or anyone  
else might have intended.

Take care,

James


On Sep 17, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Ross Nichols wrote:

> Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say  
> that it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently  
> walk! I can't wait. I will be publishing the full program by this  
> coming Sunday.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St.  
>> Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will  
>> be there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to  
>> local commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the  
>> weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be  
>> there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be  
>> quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,  
>> than ever in the past. You can find information and details at http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html 
>> , and though it is too late to enroll in the meal plans at the  
>> campsite I am sure attending the weekend events is still open if  
>> any of you are on the fence and might decide to join us.
>>
>> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is  
>> going to be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity."  
>> Basically, this one is "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture  
>> by this title back in the 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I  
>> think of all the things I have done over the years this one has  
>> received the most interest and attention. I have a book planned by  
>> this title for late 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the  
>> Spring--I hope around Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I  
>> want to present an entirely new and revised version of that lecture.
>>
>> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the  
>> historic Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is  
>> an amazing setting for such a topic. It will then be available for  
>> downloading and distribution over the Internet thereafter.
>>
>> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In  
>> the meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom  
>> Teru'ah this coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that  
>> later...from both Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
>>
>> Shalom,
>>
>> James
>>
>> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider  
>> pitching in to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in  
>> Ross Nichols and his group hosting this event. They have taken on a  
>> lot of responsibility and committed themselves way beyond their  
>> individual means for the sake of the rest of us, whether coming or  
>> just listening in from afar. See http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and 
>>  where you can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  
>> "Chip In" Logo.
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Thu Sep 17 20:43:30 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:43:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
	ofChristianity
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net>
	<C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
Message-ID: <D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook>

I agree!  I love this subject.  I have heard the audio of the 'Emanual 
conference and find it very balanced and presented in a constructive manor. 
I can hardly wait!

ROF will be broadcasting "real-time" as much of the Sukkoth gathering as 
possible.  The presentations will be streamed live.  Also we will be taping 
as many of the daily activities such as fireside talks ect....and then the 
next day running  what was recorded the day before.  I can see doing some 
personal interviews with many of the attendees, as a way to introduce each 
of us to those online.


dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ross Nichols" <rossknichols at me.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws 
ofChristianity


> Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say  that 
> it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk!  I can't 
> wait. I will be publishing the full program by this coming  Sunday.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> 
> wrote:
>
>> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St. 
>> Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will  be 
>> there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to  local 
>> commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the  weekend but 
>> I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be  there. From what 
>> Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be  quite amazing with 
>> more folks coming, and from longer distances,  than ever in the past. You 
>> can find information and details at 
>> http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html , and though it is too late to 
>> enroll in the meal plans at the  campsite I am sure attending the weekend 
>> events is still open if any  of you are on the fence and might decide to 
>> join us.
>>
>> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going  to 
>> be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this  one is 
>> "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back  in the 
>> 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the  things I have 
>> done over the years this one has received the most  interest and 
>> attention. I have a book planned by this title for late  2010--after the 
>> Paul book comes out in the Spring--I hope around  Sukkoth next year, but 
>> at Sukkoth this year I want to present an  entirely new and revised 
>> version of that lecture.
>>
>> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic 
>> Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing 
>> setting for such a topic. It will then be available for downloading  and 
>> distribution over the Internet thereafter.
>>
>> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In  the 
>> meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom  Teru'ah this 
>> coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that  later...from both 
>> Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
>>
>> Shalom,
>>
>> James
>>
>> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider  pitching in 
>> to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in  Ross Nichols and 
>> his group hosting this event. They have taken on a  lot of responsibility 
>> and committed themselves way beyond their  individual means for the sake 
>> of the rest of us, whether coming or  just listening in from afar. See 
>> http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and where you 
>> can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  "Chip In" Logo.
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________ 



From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Sep 17 20:48:47 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:48:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
In-Reply-To: <56DD2633-A945-4A04-B4A4-B99AF133EDD5@earthlink.net>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
	<56DD2633-A945-4A04-B4A4-B99AF133EDD5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94016EE699084EF09B2B12C8202A42D7@TESTPC>

 

 

James,

 

A few weeks ago I was thinking about the journey one takes as they come out
of Babylon and false religion. The question I was asking,  When one comes
out of Idolatry and false religion how far does one have to come before they
are out?  Kind of like traveling on a journey and looking for signs along
the way.  I thought of the big things I had learned along the way that
altered my path a little. i.e. God's covenant promise to Israel, the
Idolatry of the god/man doctrine, and that Jesus was a Jew and they met in
the synagogue not a church.  I also thought about your lesson on the 5
fundamental flaws. I looked for the tapes could not locate but as best as I
remembered those (5) would be signs of correction along the pathway  back.
As I was looking for my copies of the tapes from years ago, I had the
thought that they would be a great gift to give someone with a copy of RAF.
Needless to say we'll be listening for the updated version.   And I think
the answer to my question will be realized when we are at home in the
Kingdom.

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
ofChristianity

 

Glad you are pleased Ross.

 

This one will be similar but I think much better, more nuanced. I should
explain also, for our new people, and even those who consider themselves
"Christian," that what I plan to do in this lecture, and the book, is not
any kind of attack on Christianity. Rather, what I want to offer is a
constructive critique of the significant ways in which the movement begun by
Jesus of Nazareth, that was so thoroughly grounded in Hebraic principles,
was gradually, by the 2nd century CE, taken in completely new directions and
set on completely new foundations, sealing the separation between synagogue
and church forever. My lecture will focus not so much on the "who" as the
"what," in other words, how the ideas shifted, no matter what Paul or anyone
else might have intended.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Sep 17, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Ross Nichols wrote:





Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say that it
changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk! I can't wait.
I will be publishing the full program by this coming Sunday.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:




My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St. Francisville, LA
this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will be there for that weekend
and others for the entire week. Due to local commitments involving Sukkoth I
can only be present for the weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked
out for me to be there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is
going to be quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,
than ever in the past. You can find information and details at
http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html, and though it is too late to
enroll in the meal plans at the campsite I am sure attending the weekend
events is still open if any of you are on the fence and might decide to join
us.

 

Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going to be:
"The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this one is "back
by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back in the 1990s at the
Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the things I have done over the years
this one has received the most interest and attention. I have a book planned
by this title for late 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the Spring--I
hope around Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I want to present an
entirely new and revised version of that lecture.

 

My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic Temple
Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing setting for
such a topic. It will then be available for downloading and distribution
over the Internet thereafter.

 

I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In the
meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom Teru'ah this
coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that later...from both Ross
and me via e-mail and the Web.

 

Shalom,

 

James

 

P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider pitching in to
contribute to some of the overall costs involved in Ross Nichols and his
group hosting this event. They have taken on a lot of responsibility and
committed themselves way beyond their individual means for the sake of the
rest of us, whether coming or just listening in from afar. See
http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and where you can
make an immediate on-line contribution at the little "Chip In" Logo.

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Thu Sep 17 21:43:08 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:43:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
	ofChristianity
In-Reply-To: <94016EE699084EF09B2B12C8202A42D7@TESTPC>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
	<56DD2633-A945-4A04-B4A4-B99AF133EDD5@earthlink.net>
	<94016EE699084EF09B2B12C8202A42D7@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <D25C57204A7D47A1991532F10993F7D7@bettylaptop>

Excellent James!  Now I want to be there more than ever, but it doesn't look
like it is going to work out.  Good points, Marvin.I have done a lot of
thinking along those lines as well.  And yes, I think they would be an ideal
gift to accompany the RAF book.

 

Take care and be well.and Shana Tova.this time tomorrow evening, we will be
hearing the blast of the shofar for Yom Teru'ah!  Can hardly wait

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:49 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
ofChristianity

 

 

 

James,

 

A few weeks ago I was thinking about the journey one takes as they come out
of Babylon and false religion. The question I was asking,  When one comes
out of Idolatry and false religion how far does one have to come before they
are out?  Kind of like traveling on a journey and looking for signs along
the way.  I thought of the big things I had learned along the way that
altered my path a little. i.e. God's covenant promise to Israel, the
Idolatry of the god/man doctrine, and that Jesus was a Jew and they met in
the synagogue not a church.  I also thought about your lesson on the 5
fundamental flaws. I looked for the tapes could not locate but as best as I
remembered those (5) would be signs of correction along the pathway  back.
As I was looking for my copies of the tapes from years ago, I had the
thought that they would be a great gift to give someone with a copy of RAF.
Needless to say we'll be listening for the updated version.   And I think
the answer to my question will be realized when we are at home in the
Kingdom.

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
ofChristianity

 

Glad you are pleased Ross.

 

This one will be similar but I think much better, more nuanced. I should
explain also, for our new people, and even those who consider themselves
"Christian," that what I plan to do in this lecture, and the book, is not
any kind of attack on Christianity. Rather, what I want to offer is a
constructive critique of the significant ways in which the movement begun by
Jesus of Nazareth, that was so thoroughly grounded in Hebraic principles,
was gradually, by the 2nd century CE, taken in completely new directions and
set on completely new foundations, sealing the separation between synagogue
and church forever. My lecture will focus not so much on the "who" as the
"what," in other words, how the ideas shifted, no matter what Paul or anyone
else might have intended.

 

Take care,

 

James

 

 

On Sep 17, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Ross Nichols wrote:

 

Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say that it
changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk! I can't wait.
I will be publishing the full program by this coming Sunday.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:



My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St. Francisville, LA
this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will be there for that weekend
and others for the entire week. Due to local commitments involving Sukkoth I
can only be present for the weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked
out for me to be there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is
going to be quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,
than ever in the past. You can find information and details at
http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html, and though it is too late to
enroll in the meal plans at the campsite I am sure attending the weekend
events is still open if any of you are on the fence and might decide to join
us.

 

Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going to be:
"The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this one is "back
by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back in the 1990s at the
Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the things I have done over the years
this one has received the most interest and attention. I have a book planned
by this title for late 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the Spring--I
hope around Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I want to present an
entirely new and revised version of that lecture.

 

My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic Temple
Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing setting for
such a topic. It will then be available for downloading and distribution
over the Internet thereafter.

 

I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In the
meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom Teru'ah this
coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that later...from both Ross
and me via e-mail and the Web.

 

Shalom,

 

James

 

P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider pitching in to
contribute to some of the overall costs involved in Ross Nichols and his
group hosting this event. They have taken on a lot of responsibility and
committed themselves way beyond their individual means for the sake of the
rest of us, whether coming or just listening in from afar. See
http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and where you can
make an immediate on-line contribution at the little "Chip In" Logo.

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 

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From rossknichols at me.com  Thu Sep 17 21:51:57 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:51:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Order of Speakers and Topics
Message-ID: <62F5A910-C061-4BDC-B49C-78E10848C326@me.com>

Shalom,

I have been working on arranging the topics for the conference here in  
Saint Francisville, Louisiana October 9-11. I am pleased to present  
this to you this evening. I will put all of this in a nice program  
complete with times before Monday but could not wait to share thus  
exciting lineup!

Friday evening at the campground:

Joseph Good - The Ceremonies of Succoth

Saturday at the Synagogue:

James D. Tabor - The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity

Debbie Good - Healing and Restoration

Walter Oakley
Back to the Future

Walter Oakley
A Taste of Hebrew

Sunday morning at the synagogue:

Ross K. Nichols
Following Jesus.....Out of Christianity

Simchat Torah Service

Web Hulon - Moledet vs. Mishpakha-The Building Blocks of Yisrael

Joseph Good - Pirket Avoth-The Beauty of Judaism in the Sayings of the  
Fathers

Sent from my iPhone


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 00:51:55 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:51:55 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Shana Tova!!
Message-ID: <855590370909172251w58f979dcy4dd8734263059d3a@mail.gmail.com>

*                    SHANA TOVA!!!*
*                     May this year be one filled with health, happiness,
love, contentment and Aliyah.*
**
*                                    B'Ahava M'Artzenu HaKdosha (With Love
from Our Holy Land)*
**
*                                                           Hanoch*
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Sep 18 05:59:15 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:59:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!
Message-ID: <334303B3D1D1479A93D2863424CA1221@TESTPC>

 

 

Please see the attachment God created vegetables.   It's in the bible.

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From chcashmore at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 18 06:03:15 2009
From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:03:15 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
Message-ID: <SNT108-W372801826644DFA1282813C8E00@phx.gbl>


I really look forward to this James!  (And your new book!)
Also - thanks so much for the website link about kindness.  I simply loved it.  It has been exactly what I needed to view tonight.  It's really inspired me!
Catherine x 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Looking for a place to rent, share or buy this winter? Find your next place with Ninemsn?property
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Edomain%2Ecom%2Eau%2F%3Fs%5Fcid%3DFDMedia%3ANineMSN%5FHotmail%5FTagline&_t=774152450&_r=Domain_tagline&_m=EXT
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 18 07:23:32 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:23:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] YHVH The Good Shepherd of Joseph, the Rock of Ages
Message-ID: <9E2CA2E3-038C-4B3A-8E7A-4BCCD9040FBD@earthlink.net>

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel,

You who lead Joseph like a flock!

You who are enthroned upon the cherubim, shine forth.

Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh,

stir up Your might and come to save us!

Restore us, O God; let Your face shine, that we may be saved! (Psalm  
80:1-3)



Blow the shofar at the new moon,

at the covered moon, on our feast day.

For it is a statute for Israel,

a rule of the God of Jacob.

He made it a decree in Joseph

when He went out over the land of Egypt (Psalm 81:3-5)



 From there [Joseph] is the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel Genesis 49: 24

Trust in YHVH until always, for in YaH YHVH is a Rock of Ages Isa 26:4

For who is God, save YHVH, and who is a Rock, besides our God? Psalm  
18:31


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From creechmargie at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 08:10:28 2009
From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
	ofChristianity
Message-ID: <251479.7885.qm@web58501.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


Dave,
Thank you for all that you do!? Wishing everyone a Happy Rosh Hashanah!
?
Margie?

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net> wrote:


From: Dave Cole <dhcole1 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws ofChristianity
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 8:43 PM


I agree!? I love this subject.? I have heard the audio of the 'Emanual conference and find it very balanced and presented in a constructive manor. I can hardly wait!

ROF will be broadcasting "real-time" as much of the Sukkoth gathering as possible.? The presentations will be streamed live.? Also we will be taping as many of the daily activities such as fireside talks ect....and then the next day running? what was recorded the day before.? I can see doing some personal interviews with many of the attendees, as a way to introduce each of us to those online.


dave
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Nichols" <rossknichols at me.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws ofChristianity


> Outstanding!? This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say? that it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk!? I can't wait. I will be publishing the full program by this coming? Sunday..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St. Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will? be there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to? local commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the? weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be? there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be? quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,? than ever in the past. You can find information and details at http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html , and though it is too late to enroll in the meal plans at the? campsite I am sure attending the weekend events is still open if any? of you are on the fence and might decide to join us.
>> 
>> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going? to be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this? one is "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back? in the 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the? things I have done over the years this one has received the most? interest and attention.. I have a book planned by this title for late? 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the Spring--I hope around? Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I want to present an? entirely new and revised version of that lecture.
>> 
>> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing setting for such a topic. It will then be available for downloading? and distribution over the Internet thereafter.
>> 
>> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In? the meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom? Teru'ah this coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that? later...from both Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
>> 
>> Shalom,
>> 
>> James
>> 
>> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider? pitching in to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in? Ross Nichols and his group hosting this event. They have taken on a? lot of responsibility and committed themselves way beyond their? individual means for the sake of the rest of us, whether coming or? just listening in from afar. See http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and where you can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little? "Chip In" Logo..
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________ 

_______________________________________________



      
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 18 10:44:19 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:44:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws of
	Christianity
In-Reply-To: <94016EE699084EF09B2B12C8202A42D7@TESTPC>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
	<56DD2633-A945-4A04-B4A4-B99AF133EDD5@earthlink.net>
	<94016EE699084EF09B2B12C8202A42D7@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <D53CD117-2B0C-4E59-955F-B0ECD5BB479D@earthlink.net>

Thanks Marvin. Yes, I listened to those older tapes not long ago and  
they really are outdated, some things I think I had wrong, and as  
helpful as they might have been to others I want to absolutely revise  
that lecture. It was originally two parts, but this one will be  
compressed to an hour or so, but that is good I think. I am very  
primed for this and I believe it will have a great impact in times to  
come. I have thought of the idea of making a audio/CD that is included  
with copies of RAF, so we will see how the lecture goes.

Take care, and Chag Sameach to you, your wife, and all your dear ones,

James


On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:48 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote:

>
>
> James,
>
> A few weeks ago I was thinking about the journey one takes as they  
> come out of Babylon and false religion. The question I was asking,   
> When one comes out of Idolatry and false religion how far does one  
> have to come before they are out?  Kind of like traveling on a  
> journey and looking for signs along the way.  I thought of the big  
> things I had learned along the way that altered my path a little.  
> i.e. God?s covenant promise to Israel, the  Idolatry of the god/man  
> doctrine, and that Jesus was a Jew and they met in the synagogue not  
> a church.  I also thought about your lesson on the 5 fundamental  
> flaws. I looked for the tapes could not locate but as best as I  
> remembered those (5) would be signs of correction along the pathway   
> back.   As I was looking for my copies of the tapes from years ago,  
> I had the thought that they would be a great gift to give someone  
> with a copy of RAF.   Needless to say we?ll be listening for the  
> updated version.   And I think the answer to my question will be  
> realized when we are at home in the Kingdom.
>
> Shalom,
> marvin
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:00 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental  
> Flaws ofChristianity
>
> Glad you are pleased Ross.
>
> This one will be similar but I think much better, more nuanced. I  
> should explain also, for our new people, and even those who consider  
> themselves "Christian," that what I plan to do in this lecture, and  
> the book, is not any kind of attack on Christianity. Rather, what I  
> want to offer is a constructive critique of the significant ways in  
> which the movement begun by Jesus of Nazareth, that was so  
> thoroughly grounded in Hebraic principles, was gradually, by the 2nd  
> century CE, taken in completely new directions and set on completely  
> new foundations, sealing the separation between synagogue and church  
> forever. My lecture will focus not so much on the "who" as the  
> "what," in other words, how the ideas shifted, no matter what Paul  
> or anyone else might have intended.
>
> Take care,
>
> James
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Ross Nichols wrote:
>
>
> Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say  
> that it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently  
> walk! I can't wait. I will be publishing the full program by this  
> coming Sunday.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  
> wrote:
>
>
> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St.  
> Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will  
> be there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to  
> local commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the  
> weekend but I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be  
> there. From what Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be  
> quite amazing with more folks coming, and from longer distances,  
> than ever in the past. You can find information and details at http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html 
> , and though it is too late to enroll in the meal plans at the  
> campsite I am sure attending the weekend events is still open if any  
> of you are on the fence and might decide to join us.
>>
>> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is  
>> going to be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity."  
>> Basically, this one is "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture  
>> by this title back in the 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I  
>> think of all the things I have done over the years this one has  
>> received the most interest and attention. I have a book planned by  
>> this title for late 2010--after the Paul book comes out in the  
>> Spring--I hope around Sukkoth next year, but at Sukkoth this year I  
>> want to present an entirely new and revised version of that lecture.
>>
>> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the  
>> historic Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is  
>> an amazing setting for such a topic. It will then be available for  
>> downloading and distribution over the Internet thereafter.
>>
>> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In  
>> the meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom  
>> Teru'ah this coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that  
>> later...from both Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
>>
>> Shalom,
>>
>> James
>>
>> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider  
>> pitching in to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in  
>> Ross Nichols and his group hosting this event. They have taken on a  
>> lot of responsibility and committed themselves way beyond their  
>> individual means for the sake of the rest of us, whether coming or  
>> just listening in from afar. See http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and 
>>  where you can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  
>> "Chip In" Logo.
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Fri Sep 18 14:18:43 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:18:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Shana Tova!!
In-Reply-To: <855590370909172251w58f979dcy4dd8734263059d3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370909172251w58f979dcy4dd8734263059d3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52D5A6DCB1E0476CA5778D90921CD8AD@bettylaptop>

Shana Tova to you and all as well, Hanoch!!!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 12:52 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shana Tova!!

 

                    SHANA TOVA!!! 

 

                     May this year be one filled with health, happiness,
love, contentment and Aliyah.

 

                                    B'Ahava M'Artzenu HaKdosha (With Love
from Our Holy Land)

 

                                                           Hanoch

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From tammyhulon at msn.com  Fri Sep 18 14:38:20 2009
From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:38:20 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] YHVH The Good Shepherd of Joseph, the Rock of Ages
In-Reply-To: <9E2CA2E3-038C-4B3A-8E7A-4BCCD9040FBD@earthlink.net>
References: <9E2CA2E3-038C-4B3A-8E7A-4BCCD9040FBD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W19410DA579887C7ED632AD9E00@phx.gbl>


Shalom James,

 

I read this Psalm recently also and I had a question.  Maybe you will have an answer.

Is the Psalm saying that Yahweh will save Ephraim, Benjamin and Manasseh together or is it saying that YHWH's might will be stirred up, referring to Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh. 

 

Also, the list is unusual with Benjamin in the middle.  I know these three tribes are all on the same side of the camp in the wilderness, the west, so they are definitely supposed to be attached to each other.  And of course, they are all from the same matriarch, Rachel.

 

My understanding is that this Psalm was probably written by Asaph, a Temple Levite, most likely a singer or musician. 

 

So when was Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh, together, in need of saving? Or is Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh what is stirred up?

 

Your thoughts please.

 

Shalom, Tami

 

 


 


From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:23:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] YHVH The Good Shepherd of Joseph, the Rock of Ages



Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel,

You who lead Joseph like a flock!

You who are enthroned upon the cherubim, shine forth. 

Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh, 

stir up Your might and come to save us! 

Restore us, O God; let Your face shine, that we may be saved! (Psalm 80:1-3)






Blow the shofar at the new moon,
at the covered moon, on our feast day. 
For it is a statute for Israel,
a rule of the God of Jacob. 
He made it a decree in Joseph
when He went out over the land of Egypt (Psalm 81:3-5)


>From there [Joseph] is the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel Genesis 49: 24




Trust in YHVH until always, for in YaH YHVH is a Rock of Ages Isa 26:4
For who is God, save YHVH, and who is a Rock, besides our God? Psalm 18:31


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Fri Sep 18 16:01:56 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:01:56 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental
	FlawsofChristianity
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com>
	<D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook>
Message-ID: <003101ca38a3$427e7950$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

Rather then I look any further----What is the address there///??
///////////Dick L

> I agree!  I love this subject.  I have heard the audio of the 'Emanual
> conference and find it very balanced and presented in a constructive
manor.
> I can hardly wait!
>
> ROF will be broadcasting "real-time" as much of the Sukkoth gathering as
> possible.  The presentations will be streamed live.  Also we will be
taping
> as many of the daily activities such as fireside talks ect....and then the
> next day running  what was recorded the day before.  I can see doing some
> personal interviews with many of the attendees, as a way to introduce each
> of us to those online.
>
>
> dave
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ross Nichols" <rossknichols at me.com>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five Fundamental Flaws
> ofChristianity
>
>
> > Outstanding!  This class is my all time favorite. I can honestly say
that
> > it changed my life and set me on the path that I currently walk!  I
can't
> > wait. I will be publishing the full program by this coming  Sunday.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:57 AM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My plans are to attend the weekend Sukkoth gathering in St.
> >> Francisville, LA this year (October 9-11). I know some of you will  be
> >> there for that weekend and others for the entire week. Due to  local
> >> commitments involving Sukkoth I can only be present for the  weekend
but
> >> I am so pleased that this has worked out for me to be  there. From what
> >> Ross Nichols has told me this event is going to be  quite amazing with
> >> more folks coming, and from longer distances,  than ever in the past.
You
> >> can find information and details at
> >> http://swwsukkot.homestead.com/Index.html , and though it is too late
to
> >> enroll in the meal plans at the  campsite I am sure attending the
weekend
> >> events is still open if any  of you are on the fence and might decide
to
> >> join us.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I wanted to announce that my topic at the gathering is going
to
> >> be: "The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity." Basically, this  one
is
> >> "back by popular demand." I gave a lecture by this title back  in the
> >> 1990s at the Emmanuel Conference and I think of all the  things I have
> >> done over the years this one has received the most  interest and
> >> attention. I have a book planned by this title for late  2010--after
the
> >> Paul book comes out in the Spring--I hope around  Sukkoth next year,
but
> >> at Sukkoth this year I want to present an  entirely new and revised
> >> version of that lecture.
> >>
> >> My understanding is that it will be broadcast live from the historic
> >> Temple Sinai in St. Francisville, LA, which in itself is an amazing
> >> setting for such a topic. It will then be available for downloading
and
> >> distribution over the Internet thereafter.
> >>
> >> I hope to see you face-to-face, but if not, then via Cyberspace. In
the
> >> meantime I wish each and every one of you a meaningful Yom  Teru'ah
this
> >> coming weekend--the Day of the Blast! More on that  later...from both
> >> Ross and me via e-mail and the Web.
> >>
> >> Shalom,
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >> P.S. Whether you can attend or not I hope you might consider  pitching
in
> >> to contribute to some of the overall costs involved in  Ross Nichols
and
> >> his group hosting this event. They have taken on a  lot of
responsibility
> >> and committed themselves way beyond their  individual means for the
sake
> >> of the rest of us, whether coming or  just listening in from afar. See
> >> http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and where
you
> >> can make an immediate on-line contribution at the little  "Chip In"
Logo.
> >> _______________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 18 17:21:03 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:21:03 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shofar at UIWU Office
Message-ID: <132CA1CA-7ADB-4C22-897C-9FF0F1297085@earthlink.net>

I just walked all through our UIWU offices and blew the shofar in  
behalf of all of you and remembering David Horowitz and his lifelong  
mission to Yosef and all those drawn to Torah.

Chag sameach!!
Shabbat Shalom!!

James

Sent from my iPhone



From dhcole1 at cox.net  Fri Sep 18 18:59:09 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:59:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] links to the live stream 
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com><D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook>
	<003101ca38a3$427e7950$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <944C65CA7E1541D6AEF5863C64E9022B@davesbook>

Hello Dick,  I am assuming you want the address for the live 
feed....Information can be found at;

 http://www.rootsoffaith.net

direct link is

www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith

or

http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video

hope this helps
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five 
FundamentalFlawsofChristianity


> Rather then I look any further----What is the address there///??
> ///////////Dick L
>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________ 



From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Fri Sep 18 20:52:51 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:52:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] links to the live stream 
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com><D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook><003101ca38a3$427e7950$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
	<944C65CA7E1541D6AEF5863C64E9022B@davesbook>
Message-ID: <00bd01ca38cb$e6820e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>

No not really.   I just want to send a check to help out. To whom  where????


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] links to the live stream 


> Hello Dick,  I am assuming you want the address for the live 
> feed....Information can be found at;
> 
>  http://www.rootsoffaith.net
> 
> direct link is
> 
> www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith
> 
> or
> 
> http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video
> 
> hope this helps
> dave
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five 
> FundamentalFlawsofChristianity
> 
> 
> > Rather then I look any further----What is the address there///??
> > ///////////Dick L
> >
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________ 
> 
> _______________________________________________


From dhcole1 at cox.net  Fri Sep 18 23:23:52 2009
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:23:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] links to the live stream 
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com><D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook><003101ca38a3$427e7950$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8><944C65CA7E1541D6AEF5863C64E9022B@davesbook>
	<00bd01ca38cb$e6820e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
Message-ID: <7BBD061D47D740C5B00B3ED86EAF6A39@davesbook>

ok.....here is the address information.

 You may make a financial contribution by sending check or money order to:
Roots of Faith
P.O.Box 695
Saint Francisville, LA. 70775

Also if you wish there is a way to send funds by way of electonic transfer, 
but only if you trust this sort of thing.  here is the internet link; 
http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and


you can look and see other information about the Sukkot 09 event.



dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] links to the live stream


> No not really.   I just want to send a check to help out. To whom 
> where????
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] links to the live stream
>
>
>> Hello Dick,  I am assuming you want the address for the live
>> feed....Information can be found at;
>>
>>  http://www.rootsoffaith.net
>>
>> direct link is
>>
>> www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video
>>
>> hope this helps
>> dave
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five
>> FundamentalFlawsofChristianity
>>
>>
>> > Rather then I look any further----What is the address there///??
>> > ///////////Dick L
>> >
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________ 



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 19 10:06:45 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:06:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] RH in Hickory
Message-ID: <2896029A-A9CD-4F8F-BC7C-2E504F931AB7@earthlink.net>

I am sitting in the synagogue in Hickory with Dennis Jones up reading  
Torah, Chris Christenbury sitting next to me. We will spend the  
afternoon together...thinking of you all. Be sure and tune in to Ross  
this AM.

Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone


From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 19 10:34:38 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:34:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Zikron Shofar
Message-ID: <6ABE6F9E-EA8E-47C9-B977-9FD4B3FF9EAE@earthlink.net>



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Sent from my iPhone

From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Sat Sep 19 19:20:18 2009
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:20:18 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] links to the live stream 
In-Reply-To: <7BBD061D47D740C5B00B3ED86EAF6A39@davesbook>
References: <8897F393-C6EA-4912-A4D1-F8A5FE285413@earthlink.net><C33CCB68-FE84-4D1F-90FD-270F38C92701@me.com><D487E8D8737E40AF86649C9F370B0C89@davesbook><003101ca38a3$427e7950$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8><944C65CA7E1541D6AEF5863C64E9022B@davesbook><00bd01ca38cb$e6820e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8>
	<7BBD061D47D740C5B00B3ED86EAF6A39@davesbook>
Message-ID: <B6B180B749754160A52287E701E49108@dickLPC>

.Thanks Dave.  Hope you all enjoy as I will be thinking of you-all.  Dick L

> ok.....here is the address information.
>
> You may make a financial contribution by sending check or money order to:
> Roots of Faith
> P.O.Box 695
> Saint Francisville, LA. 70775
>
> Also if you wish there is a way to send funds by way of electonic 
> transfer,
> but only if you trust this sort of thing.  here is the internet link;
> http://www.rootsoffaith.net/events/succoth-09-camp-meeting-and
>
>
> you can look and see other information about the Sukkot 09 event.
>
>
>
> dave
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] links to the live stream
>
>
>> No not really.   I just want to send a check to help out. To whom
>> where????
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] links to the live stream
>>
>>
>>> Hello Dick,  I am assuming you want the address for the live
>>> feed....Information can be found at;
>>>
>>>  http://www.rootsoffaith.net
>>>
>>> direct link is
>>>
>>> www.livestream.com/rootsoffaith
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video
>>>
>>> hope this helps
>>> dave
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Dick L" <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:01 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Topic at Sukkoth: The Five
>>> FundamentalFlawsofChristianity
>>>
>>>
>>> > Rather then I look any further----What is the address there///??
>>> > ///////////Dick L
>>> >
>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.107/2382 - Release Date: 09/19/09 
06:03:00



From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 13:21:09 2009
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:21:09 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] A very brief update from Israel
Message-ID: <855590370909201121j7e2b1358vc0f74af1f85ff2b8@mail.gmail.com>

                      BE"H

Erev Rosh HaShana, 5770


Shalom & Greetings from Modi'in, birthplace of the Maccabees,

      So much has happened since I left America and came home to Israel,
wow...I don't know where to begin. But here is a quick 'report.'  The
first week was totally disorienting, with the combination of jet lag and
moving into new construction, in a
city that I had never been to.  However, that's all small stuff compared to
actually being an Israeli citizen...and
beginning a new life in our ancient homeland.  And last Shabbat was the
first time I got to sit at the same Shabbat
table as both of my daughters (at the same time) - the first time since the
winter of 2006.

     After having been to Israel 10 times over the years, I really didn't
expect there to be too many surprises,
however, there actually have been two, but compared to everything else, it's
not that significant.  The SPIRITUAL benefits of
being here are ENORMOUS...I continually have acute clarity of vision here -
seeming to know what needs to be written, what people need to be doing.  But
first, the 2 surprises:
1.  Prices here are very, very high - even by NYC Kosher standards.  The
worst part though, is that salaries are
25-33% of what they are in the U.S. Something to be kept in mind for your
future budgeting process.

2.  You really, really need to know Hebrew, *well* - even before you step
off the plane.  I have been stunned at how
much advanced Hebrew I have needed to use, including completing forms
(multi-page questionaires), totally in Hebrew.

*.  Modi'in has been named as a designated direct Klita (Absorbtion)
location, so there is lots of help for
the 'Anglo' community (olim - immigrants, from the U.S., Canada, U.K. and
South Africa).  In fact there are weekly
events to enable the Anglo olim to meet each other, network and become
friends.  Everyone has been really lovely,
and have invited the girls and I to meals for Shabbat and now, for Rosh
HaShana.  EVERY South African Jew I have
ever met has been incredibly gracious and caring.  Many of the Anglos I have
met here (Modi'in) are retirees, and don't have to go through
the job search process.

*.  In a really funny quirk of Israeli terminology, as an native English
speaker, I'm referred to not only as an
"Anglo,"  but actually am occasionally referred to as an 'Anglo-Saxon.'
:-)  Isn't THAT bizarre?!?!?  wIth what
I've learned over the years about the Tribes, it's really ironic...

*  My girls are doing great, and I miss them terribly when I don't see them
(which will be Sunday - Thursday, usually).
Once I get Internet access (and my library) it should be a bit better (and
the TV & DVD installed,too), and especially - I can get back to my research
and writing.

* Shipping companies cannot be trusted;  I contracted (and paid) for certain
pieces of furniture to be disassembled,
shipped and reassembled upon arrival in my new apartment.  Well, their
Israeli sub-contractor is unable to do it.
I have threatened the U.S. company, but they seem unwilling to honor our
agreement, and the contract is worded in such a way,
that it's subject to interpetation.  It is supposed to arrive here in
Modi'in on Tuesday....this is going to get really interesting...Since
Israeli apartments do not have built in closets, I have ordered 5, which
will be arriving after my clothing (and furniture) comes.  But, it has been
really hard to live out of 2 bags since August 17th.

*  I will test for my Ulpan (intensive Hebrew study) level next week, to
determine whether I have to go to Jerusalem or Tel Aviv for Ulpan (Modi'in
only offers beginners levels).  It will be my one chance (over 5+ months) to
truly perfect my Hebrew; especially grammer (which I barely know in
English!)

*  Modi'in's brand new railroad station, and massive mall are all of a 5
minute walk from my apartment.  The Israeli
railroad is great, on time, clean and runs really efficiently. The mall has
a movie theater (8 movies) and every kind of
store you can imagine, including a wonderful food court, where most of the
places are Kosher.  Where else can you
go to a McDonalds (kosher), and be wished a 'Shabbat Shalom?'

*  The city has 80,000 residents, and is slated to reach 250,000 - and is
Israel's fastest growing city.  They are
actually holding up on new housing so that the infrastructure can catch up.
It's a city that's a kid's paradise - tens
of lovely parks, and lots of elementary schools.  I would guess that young
couples constitute a large part of the
city's residents, and I have never seen so many pregnant women in my life!
*  Modi'in is all built on hills, and it is quite a workout just walking
anywhere.  Within a few Kilometers, are the lush hills of Shomron
(Samaria).  Almost everywhere you go is a spot of historical importance, if
not from the period of the Hashmonaim (Maccabees), then the Bar Kochba
rebellion (132-135 CE) or the modern Israeli War of Independence.


* HaShem feels SO CLOSE here...I am convinced that this will be a very, very
significant year for us all....

                B'Ahavat HaMoledet (with love of the Homeland),
                      *  Hanoch*
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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Sep 20 23:07:22 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:07:22 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Zikron Shofar
In-Reply-To: <6ABE6F9E-EA8E-47C9-B977-9FD4B3FF9EAE@earthlink.net>
References: <6ABE6F9E-EA8E-47C9-B977-9FD4B3FF9EAE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41D7C174180343F3BF9364E24EC3C233@bettylaptop>

Wonderful, James!  Couldn't tell for sure, but looked like Dennis was
blowing the shofar.   Zikron, or Remembrance stands for the second series of
shofar blasts if I remember correctly (no pun intended).  With the first
being to declare the Sovereignty of HaShem and the third being Revelation to
bring our thoughts to Sinai and the giving of the Torah!  I love this time
of year...so many physical and concrete reminders to literally "call" us to
t'shuvah and repentance leading up to Yom Kippur.

Elisheva/Betty



-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 10:35 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Zikron Shofar






From bkgivin at verizon.net  Sun Sep 20 23:16:17 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:16:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!
In-Reply-To: <334303B3D1D1479A93D2863424CA1221@TESTPC>
References: <334303B3D1D1479A93D2863424CA1221@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <253165EDC3B74811B390D45F88A1DB7D@bettylaptop>

Marvin, with all the business these past few days, I missed this.  It is
very clever and speaks much truth!!!  I will definitely forward it to my
friends.  I hope that everyone had a chance to see and enjoy it.

 

Thanks and shana tova!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:59 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

 

 

Please see the attachment God created vegetables.   It's in the bible.

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Mon Sep 21 07:45:17 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:45:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!
In-Reply-To: <253165EDC3B74811B390D45F88A1DB7D@bettylaptop>
References: <334303B3D1D1479A93D2863424CA1221@TESTPC>
	<253165EDC3B74811B390D45F88A1DB7D@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <87D31F45DCCD4288A4CBA7E919E9C6FF@TESTPC>

Yea Betty, some times we need to laugh, you know life can kill ya!   

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty K Givin
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

Marvin, with all the business these past few days, I missed this.  It is
very clever and speaks much truth!!!  I will definitely forward it to my
friends.  I hope that everyone had a chance to see and enjoy it.

 

Thanks and shana tova!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:59 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

 

 

Please see the attachment God created vegetables.   It's in the bible.

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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Mon Sep 21 10:59:52 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!
In-Reply-To: <87D31F45DCCD4288A4CBA7E919E9C6FF@TESTPC>
References: <334303B3D1D1479A93D2863424CA1221@TESTPC>
	<253165EDC3B74811B390D45F88A1DB7D@bettylaptop>
	<87D31F45DCCD4288A4CBA7E919E9C6FF@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <A98428F635F043DFBA63AF094A5F0C2D@bettylaptop>

Yes, I do know.BTW, in my email I meant busyness, not business.  I forwarded
that email to lots of people.I loved it!!!  Thanks again.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:45 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

Yea Betty, some times we need to laugh, you know life can kill ya!   

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty K Givin
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

Marvin, with all the business these past few days, I missed this.  It is
very clever and speaks much truth!!!  I will definitely forward it to my
friends.  I hope that everyone had a chance to see and enjoy it.

 

Thanks and shana tova!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hyde
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:59 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] God Created Vegetables!!

 

 

 

Please see the attachment God created vegetables.   It's in the bible.

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From rossknichols at me.com  Mon Sep 21 15:32:13 2009
From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:32:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Conference and Camping Update
References: <3EBF23BB-A54F-4B3D-866F-AC3291BF06E3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <526307B0-BB9A-4142-B9E4-CC1E068DB16E@me.com>



Sent from my iPhone
>
>> From: "Roots of Faith" <bulletin at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Date: September 21, 2009 2:30:07 PM CDT
>> To: rndavar at aol.com
>> Subject: Conference and Camping Update
>> Reply-To: bulletin at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>
>> Shalom from Temple Sinai in Saint Francisville, Louisiana!
>>
>> The entire Torah community is now in the 7th month of the Biblical  
>> year - a time referred to by the First Century Jewish Historian  
>> Josephus as the "Sacred Month". We begin this month with the  
>> sounding of the shofar (Ram's Horn Trumpet), which is followed by  
>> Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), and finally the seven day  
>> Festival of Booths (Succoth). For the last several years, Roots of  
>> Faith has held its Annual Bible Conference during the ancient  
>> Biblical Festival of Succoth (Booths).
>>
>> I wanted to send this update to my entire mailing list today to  
>> update you all on the exciting upcoming Annual Conference and  
>> Campout to be held here in less than 2 weeks.
>>
>> This year we are anticipating the largest turnout ever. So far,  
>> based upon registrations, it looks like we might have nearly 100 in  
>> attendance and many of these will be camping together for the  
>> entire week. It is not too late to sign up, but the sooner you do,  
>> the better it will be. We use this information to help us better  
>> plan. Click here to fill out our on-line registration.
>>
>> We also have a site set up with information on the Festival and  
>> Camp site. I encourage you to check it out.
>>
>> I am very pleased with the program for this year's conference. I  
>> have uploaded the program as a pdf so that you can print a copy out  
>> on my Synagogue Without Walls site. Here is a list of the speakers  
>> and their topics.
>>
>> James D. Tabor - The Five Fundamental Flaws of Christianity
>> Debbie Good - Healing and Restoration
>> Walter Oakley - Back to the Future & a Taste of Hebrew
>> Web Hulon - Moledet vs. Mishpakha - the Building Blocks of Yisrael
>> Joseph Good - The Ceremonies of Succoth & Pirket Avoth - the Beauty  
>> of Judaism in the Sayings of the Fathers
>> Ross Nichols - The Weightier Matters of the Torah - Torah Faith  
>> from the Inside Out
>> I will also lead a Simchat Torah (Rejoicing in the Torah) service
>>
>> There will be plenty of time to share at the campsite each evening.  
>> There will be singing and dancing and much, much more! Some of the  
>> best times during these conferences are sitting around the fire and  
>> listening to the discussions that are carried on between newly made  
>> friends.
>>
>> Whether you are able to join us or not, I would ask that you  
>> consider contributing to the costs of the conference. As always, we  
>> provide all teachings at no charge, but this year the costs are  
>> more than I can do alone. The campsite is beautiful, but does not  
>> have adequate facilities for the number of attendees. I had to rent  
>> portable showers and toilets to accommodate the crowd that we are  
>> expecting. This alone will cost nearly $2,000! I would greatly  
>> appreciate your help in making this a wonderful Festival for  
>> everyone in attendance. No amount is too small as I know that  
>> people all have different circumstances. I am only appealing to  
>> those who have the means to contribute without putting themselves  
>> in a tough place financially. If you would like to contribute and  
>> are able to do so, there are a couple of ways. One is to mail a  
>> check or money order to:
>>
>> Roots of Faith
>> P.O. Box 695
>> Saint Francisville, La. 70775
>>
>> or you can contribute on line here.
>>
>> I am also including a "chip in widget" in this note, but am not  
>> sure if it will work in all email programs.
>>
>>
>>
>> We will webcast the conference live from the Synagogue as we do all  
>> of our teachings. As we get closer I will send out a special update  
>> that includes all of the information on how to join in from afar  
>> via the Internet.
>>
>> Please take the time to check our Synagogue Without Walls if you  
>> have not done so. This site is an attempt to create a social  
>> network - A place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one  
>> God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the  
>> Hebrew Bible. It now has nearly 300 members from around the world.  
>> It is truly turning into an amazing place of learning and  
>> fellowship. There you can set up your own page where you can add  
>> photos and comments, you can publish on our forum, create your own  
>> blog entries, join one of our exciting and informative groups or  
>> set up one of your own (with my approval of course:). It is like  
>> the popular social networking sites My Space and Facebook, except  
>> it is geared towards and developed for people like you who are  
>> interested in better understanding and applying the Hebraic Faith  
>> in your own life.
>>
>> I am very excited about meeting many of you face to face in the  
>> coming days!
>>
>> As always, I appreciate your continued interest in Roots of Faith  
>> and the Synagogue Without Walls.
>>
>> Click here to unsubscribe
>
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Sep 23 13:55:35 2009
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:55:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Mikveh Pools at the Temple
Message-ID: <7EBB2B687A7E4DA296B4C19876587EDE@TESTPC>

 

 

A7 news reported: the following article today.  Dr. Tabor a question for
you.  A mikveh pool of this size is not meant for a single person? The size
of crowds would indicate people moved through these pools like cattle.  In
large groups or as a stream of people.   My question, were walls built
around these pools for privacy or was it simply not a question of privacy?
Did everyone just undress and get into the pool and thought nothing of it.
I would assume women did not use these with men, the women's pools were
separate but historically I do not know that to be a fact.  Any suggested
reading material.

 

Thanks,

 

marvin

 

 

. Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered Near Western Wall
by Hillel Fendel Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered 

A 2,000-year-old mikveh (ritual bath) has been uncovered just 20 meters from
the Western Wall. 

Given its location just outside the Holy Temple - where untold numbers of
Jews regularly immersed before entering - the newly-revealed pool is among
the largest ever discovered in Jerusalem.  

The mikveh was found at the site known as the Western Wall Tunnels, which
has long been under excavation and study by the Israel Antiquities
Authority, with the support of the Western
<http://trailer.web-view.net/Links/0XAB7C33E43FB629A51FEBF6E890F7012446408CC
A193A827B6EC75870A832AC6E0F584A17B7DDA4294301DBC1322A30D333E12D665760193AFB6
660AFFA374CEC.htm>  Wall Heritage Foundation.

It is located about 30 meters past the entrance to the Tunnels, in the
general direction of the Western Wall. Once it becomes open to the public,
the 11 broad steps leading down to the mikveh will be seen approximately 8
meters below floor level.

Josephus, the famous turncoat general and historian of the period, wrote
that the administrative and governmental center of Jerusalem was located at
the foot of the Temple, and that among the buildings there were the National
Council and the Lishkat HaGazit, Chamber of Hewn Stone, where the Sanhedrin
- Israel's Supreme Court - convened. The archaeologists feel that it is
possible that the luxurious hall aside the mikveh was originally one of
these structures. 

Archaeologist Alexander Ohn,  the director of the dig, explains: "It is
interesting to note that in the middle of the first century, changes were
made in the grand structure. It was no longer used for public administrative
purposes, and in its western wall a large mikveh was installed - with 11
steps descending into the immersion pool. It appears that Jerusalem was
growing at this time, and with it the need to provide a solution for the
increasing numbers of people who came en masse to Jerusalem, especially on
the pilgrimage festivals (Passover (Pesach), Pentecost (Shavuot), and
Tabernacles (Sukkot)). Ritual immersion in a mikveh and precise observance
of the laws of purity were an inseparable part of Jewish life at this time;
the importance of a mikveh, especially in this location, was great." 

Parts of the mikveh had been uncovered in the past, but now another hall -
one of three - has been revealed. The structure was built of smooth stone
hewn in a particularly intricate manner, with high-quality decorations and
architectural style. Its importance can be determined by the fact that it is
similar to other luxurious structures built by King Herod such as the Temple
Mount, the Machpelah Cave, and one in Elonei Mamreh.

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 24 13:06:17 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:06:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Mikveh Pools at the Temple
In-Reply-To: <7EBB2B687A7E4DA296B4C19876587EDE@TESTPC>
References: <7EBB2B687A7E4DA296B4C19876587EDE@TESTPC>
Message-ID: <CB0B6702-C96A-4790-A6C5-E2BBC0FF3BD0@earthlink.net>

We are just not sure how the larger public pools operated. The same  
question comes up with the pool of Siloam. My guess is that women had  
separate areas. There is also some evidence of partial clothing/loin  
cloths for men, which is allowed, so long as water touches all parts  
of the body. Shimon Gibson does indeed discuss this in his new book,  
Final Days of Jesus.

Best,

James


On Sep 23, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote:

>
>
> A7 news reported: the following article today.  Dr. Tabor a question  
> for you.  A mikveh pool of this size is not meant for a single  
> person? The size of crowds would indicate people moved through these  
> pools like cattle.  In large groups or as a stream of people.   My  
> question, were walls built around these pools for privacy or was it  
> simply not a question of privacy?  Did everyone just undress and get  
> into the pool and thought nothing of it.   I would assume women did  
> not use these with men, the women?s pools were separate but  
> historically I do not know that to be a fact.  Any suggested reading  
> material.
>
> Thanks,
>
> marvin
>
>
> . Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered Near Western Wall
> by Hillel Fendel <image001.jpg>
>
> A 2,000-year-old mikveh (ritual bath) has been uncovered just 20  
> meters from the Western Wall.
>
> Given its location just outside the Holy Temple - where untold  
> numbers of Jews regularly immersed before entering - the newly- 
> revealed pool is among the largest ever discovered in Jerusalem.
>
> The mikveh was found at the site known as the Western Wall Tunnels,  
> which has long been under excavation and study by the Israel  
> Antiquities Authority, with the support of the Western Wall Heritage  
> Foundation.
>
> It is located about 30 meters past the entrance to the Tunnels, in  
> the general direction of the Western Wall. Once it becomes open to  
> the public, the 11 broad steps leading down to the mikveh will be  
> seen approximately 8 meters below floor level.
>
> Josephus, the famous turncoat general and historian of the period,  
> wrote that the administrative and governmental center of Jerusalem  
> was located at the foot of the Temple, and that among the buildings  
> there were the National Council and the Lishkat HaGazit, Chamber of  
> Hewn Stone, where the Sanhedrin ? Israel?s Supreme Court ? convened.  
> The archaeologists feel that it is possible that the luxurious hall  
> aside the mikveh was originally one of these structures.
>
> Archaeologist Alexander Ohn,  the director of the dig, explains: ?It  
> is interesting to note that in the middle of the first century,  
> changes were made in the grand structure. It was no longer used for  
> public administrative purposes, and in its western wall a large  
> mikveh was installed ? with 11 steps descending into the immersion  
> pool. It appears that Jerusalem was growing at this time, and with  
> it the need to provide a solution for the increasing numbers of  
> people who came en masse to Jerusalem, especially on the pilgrimage  
> festivals (Passover (Pesach), Pentecost (Shavuot), and Tabernacles  
> (Sukkot)). Ritual immersion in a mikveh and precise observance of  
> the laws of purity were an inseparable part of Jewish life at this  
> time; the importance of a mikveh, especially in this location, was  
> great.?
>
> Parts of the mikveh had been uncovered in the past, but now another  
> hall ? one of three ? has been revealed. The structure was built of  
> smooth stone hewn in a particularly intricate manner, with high- 
> quality decorations and architectural style. Its importance can be  
> determined by the fact that it is similar to other luxurious  
> structures built by King Herod such as theTemple Mount, the  
> Machpelah Cave, and one in Elonei Mamreh.
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 26 09:46:10 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:46:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sitting Around the Torah Together This Shabbat
Message-ID: <1D8D3726-05B5-45B4-A70C-886B20179838@earthlink.net>

I am looking forward to sitting together with all of you who can tune  
in, either video or audio, to Ross's teaching this AM. What a Torah  
passage, on on this special Shabbat at that! Is it not amazing that we  
have this possibility of a worldwide gathering?

http://rootsoffaith.org/live-audio-teachings

http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video

If you chose the video there is also a "chat" feature, so see you  
there...

Shabbat Shalom to all,

James



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 28 05:03:27 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:03:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Netanyahu's historic speech to the UN
Message-ID: <AFAE16F3-9805-49D6-A529-015A4E93B6E0@earthlink.net>

Be sure and listen to Netanyahu's historic speech to the UN. David  
Horowitz was close to Bibi and always said he would fulfill a special  
role. Wishing all a meaningful YK.

> http://www.jerusalemonline.com/specials13.asp


James

Sent from my iPhone




From unitedisrael at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 28 04:59:36 2009
From: unitedisrael at earthlink.net (United Israel)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:59:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Netanyanhu's historic speech to the UN
Message-ID: <2F7F5DB8-E1EF-4AAF-8928-591650EDD711@earthlink.net>

Be sure and listen to Netanyahu's historic speech to the UN. David  
Horowitz was close to Bibi and always said he would fulfill a special  
role. Wishing all a meaningful YK.

> http://www.jerusalemonline.com/specials13.asp


James




Sent from my iPhone


From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 29 07:52:35 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:52:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Fast of the 7th Month
Message-ID: <7ED07423-F449-43FA-AC39-3F2C7BAA092C@earthlink.net>

I spent yesterday, the Jewish observance of Yom Kippur, at the  
Hickory, NC Beth Shalom synagogue where Dennis Jones is president. It  
was good to have some time with Denis and his family between services  
as well as see Chris Christenbury.

One insight that Dennis and I discussed and agreed upon. For years I  
had taken the reference in Zechariah 8:19 to a time when the various  
fast days would become days of rejoicing, as including in the future  
Yom Kippur. As you might recall that verse mentions the fasts of the  
4th, 5th, 7th, and 10th months and I just assumed the "fast of the 7th  
month" would be Yom Kippur. In thinking things over I am quite sure  
that is mistaken. The four fasts mentioned here are the so-called  
"minor" fast days, associated with the destruction of the 1st Temple  
by the Babylonians, namely the 17th of Tammuz, the 9th of Ab, the fast  
of Gedaliah that falls on the 3rd of the 7th month, and the fast of  
Tebeth, on the 10th of the 10th month. None of them are part of the  
festival cycle of Leviticus 23, which of course Yom Kippur is.

Based on the context and the pattern it is clear the fast of the 7th  
month has to be Gedaliah, which was Monday, Sept 21st this year. What  
Zechariah is saying is that a time is coming in which those "sad" days  
associated with the destruction of the Temple will become days of  
rejoicing.

There is no indication that things will change with Yom Kippur and it  
will remain a day for us to "bring low our life-breath," literally,  
for spiritual renewal, which has been understood for ages as involving  
fasting and deep introspection.

Best to all,

James


From BKimbro276 at aol.com  Tue Sep 29 13:18:02 2009
From: BKimbro276 at aol.com (BKimbro276 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:18:02 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Fast of the 7th Month
Message-ID: <d11.59ffdeba.37f3a95a@aol.com>

I received your email through the dialogue and I hope it is alright to ask  
a question concerning fasting during Yom Kippur.  If you do not have  time 
to answer maybe you can do so in the future.
 
Isaiah 58:6-9 defines fasting as:
 
6 Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of  injustice,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go  free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the  hungry,
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the  naked, to cover them,
and not to hide yourself from your own kin?
8 Then  your light shall break forth like the dawn,
and your healing shall spring up  quickly;
your vindicator shall go before you,
the glory of the Lord shall  be your rear guard.
NRSV
 
Isn't this the fast at Yom Kippur?  Doesn't Yom Kippur govern Jubilee  
years?   Doesn"t the fast above pertain to the Jubilee where all  contracts for 
debts, land and slavery are abolished for  ever.  If food has not been 
produced food in the previous  alloted time then you will starve before you can 
produce again or will  verse 8 apply?  I ask these questions because it seems 
that this fast was  not observed and Israel was subsequently exiled for it 
or is this a false  assumption on my part(Jeremiah 34)?
 
Thank-you for considering my email!
 
 
In a message dated 9/29/2009 7:53:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
jamesdtabor at earthlink.net writes:

I spent  yesterday, the Jewish observance of Yom Kippur, at the  
Hickory, NC  Beth Shalom synagogue where Dennis Jones is president. It  
was good  to have some time with Denis and his family between services  
as well  as see Chris Christenbury.

One insight that Dennis and I discussed and  agreed upon. For years I  
had taken the reference in Zechariah 8:19  to a time when the various  
fast days would become days of rejoicing,  as including in the future  
Yom Kippur. As you might recall that  verse mentions the fasts of the  
4th, 5th, 7th, and 10th months and I  just assumed the "fast of the 7th  
month" would be Yom Kippur. In  thinking things over I am quite sure  
that is mistaken. The four  fasts mentioned here are the so-called  
"minor" fast days, associated  with the destruction of the 1st Temple  
by the Babylonians, namely  the 17th of Tammuz, the 9th of Ab, the fast  
of Gedaliah that falls  on the 3rd of the 7th month, and the fast of  
Tebeth, on the 10th of  the 10th month. None of them are part of the  
festival cycle of  Leviticus 23, which of course Yom Kippur is.

Based on the context and  the pattern it is clear the fast of the 7th  
month has to be  Gedaliah, which was Monday, Sept 21st this year. What  
Zechariah is  saying is that a time is coming in which those "sad" days  
associated  with the destruction of the Temple will become days of   
rejoicing.

There is no indication that things will change with Yom  Kippur and it  
will remain a day for us to "bring low our  life-breath," literally,  
for spiritual renewal, which has been  understood for ages as involving  
fasting and deep  introspection.

Best to  all,

James
_______________________________________________


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From bkgivin at verizon.net  Tue Sep 29 13:40:44 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:40:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fast of the 7th Month
In-Reply-To: <7ED07423-F449-43FA-AC39-3F2C7BAA092C@earthlink.net>
References: <7ED07423-F449-43FA-AC39-3F2C7BAA092C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01B8AF1AFBE74F8A8B1466717057448C@bettylaptop>

Interesting observation, James.  I had never put the Fast of Gedaliah with
the Fast of the 7th Month, but it makes perfect sense.  So glad you and the
Jones family and Chris could spend and share time together on this most
special of days.  It is truly a day set apart from all others.  I like your
translation, a day for us to "bring low our life-breath." The end of the
Neilah service always gets to me when after the hear the last great blast of
the shofar, we shout 3 times rather than say in a low whisper only once,
"Baruch shem kivod  l'olam chasdo. " Blessed by His glorious Name for ever!

I had a meaningful Yom Kippur too at my synagogue, Congregation Beth Israel.
I was honored with my first aliyah before the entire congregation and it was
an awesome experience to be on the beimah and hold onto the aitz chayim and
witness the Torah being chanted.

May we all have a meaningful 5770!

Elisheva/Betty


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:53 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Fast of the 7th Month

I spent yesterday, the Jewish observance of Yom Kippur, at the  
Hickory, NC Beth Shalom synagogue where Dennis Jones is president. It  
was good to have some time with Denis and his family between services  
as well as see Chris Christenbury.

One insight that Dennis and I discussed and agreed upon. For years I  
had taken the reference in Zechariah 8:19 to a time when the various  
fast days would become days of rejoicing, as including in the future  
Yom Kippur. As you might recall that verse mentions the fasts of the  
4th, 5th, 7th, and 10th months and I just assumed the "fast of the 7th  
month" would be Yom Kippur. In thinking things over I am quite sure  
that is mistaken. The four fasts mentioned here are the so-called  
"minor" fast days, associated with the destruction of the 1st Temple  
by the Babylonians, namely the 17th of Tammuz, the 9th of Ab, the fast  
of Gedaliah that falls on the 3rd of the 7th month, and the fast of  
Tebeth, on the 10th of the 10th month. None of them are part of the  
festival cycle of Leviticus 23, which of course Yom Kippur is.

Based on the context and the pattern it is clear the fast of the 7th  
month has to be Gedaliah, which was Monday, Sept 21st this year. What  
Zechariah is saying is that a time is coming in which those "sad" days  
associated with the destruction of the Temple will become days of  
rejoicing.

There is no indication that things will change with Yom Kippur and it  
will remain a day for us to "bring low our life-breath," literally,  
for spiritual renewal, which has been understood for ages as involving  
fasting and deep introspection.

Best to all,

James
_______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 30 08:20:49 2009
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:20:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel's case
References: <84F408DA-E659-4D4D-8DA4-5AC8959A7F16@me.com>
Message-ID: <AE206EA2-BB47-485A-8A69-21D241E3A58B@earthlink.net>

So many discussions of the MIddle East that we heard today move along  
without much of a sense of history or the facts. Here is a good  
summary of some main points regarding Israel's case before the world,  
made by PM Benjamin Netanyahu:

Even those who aren't  particularly sympathetic to
Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a  good measure of
satisfaction from this interview  with British Television during
the retaliation against Hamas' shelling of  Israel.

The interviewer asked him: "How come so many  more  Palestinians have
been killed in this conflict than Israelis?"

Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to  start asking in  that
direction?"

Interviewer: Why  not?

Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more  Germans were killed than
British and Americans combined, but there is no  doubt in anyone's
mind that the war was caused by Germany's aggression. And in
response to the German blitz on London,  the British wiped out the
entire city of Dresden, burning to death more German civilians  than
the number of people killed in Hiroshima. Moreover, I could remind
you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo
Headquarters in  Copenhagen, some of the bombs missed  their target
and fell on a Danish children's hospital, killing 83 little
children. Perhaps you have another  question?"

In another interview Benjamin Netanyahu was asked
about Israel's occupation of Arab  lands. His response was, "It's
our land". The reporter  was stunned - read below
"It's our land..." It's important information  since we don't get
fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts  tend to get
lost in the jumble of daily events.

"Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli  Conflict."
Here  are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East
situation:

BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...


It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and  non-Jew --
it doesn't matter.

            1. Nationhood and Jerusalem: Israel became a nation in
1400 BC, two thousand (2000+) years before the rise of  Islam.

            2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying  themselves
as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after  the
establishment of the modern State of Israel.

            3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1400 BC, the  Jews have
had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with  a
continuous presence in the land for the past 3,500  years.

            4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest  in 635
lasted no more than 22 years.

            5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been  the Jewish
capital.  Jerusalem has never been the capital of  any Arab or
Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they
never sought to make it their capital, and Arab  leaders did not come
to  visit.

            6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in  Tanach, the
Jewish Holy Scriptures.  Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the
Koran.

            7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem.  Mohammed
never came to Jerusalem.

            8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem.   Muslims pray with their
backs toward Jerusalem.

            9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab  refugees
were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge
the land  of Jews.   Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of
retaliation by their own  brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing
an Israeli soldier. The ones  who stayed were afforded the same
peace, civility, and citizenship  rights as everyone else.

            10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee  from Arab
lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and  pogroms.

            11.  The number of Arab refugees who left Israel  in 1948
is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees
from Arab lands is estimated to be about 800,000.

            12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not  absorbed or
integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite  the vast
Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War  II,
theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been
absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish
refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger
than the state of New  Jersey.

            13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are  represented
by twenty two separate nations, not including the Palestinians.
There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five
wars and lost.  Israel defended itself each  time and won.

            14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the  destruction of
the State of Israel. Israel has given the  Palestinians most of the
West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and  has
supplied them.

            15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites  were
desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship.
Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been
preserved and made accessible to people of all  faiths.

            16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175
Security  Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed
against  Israel.

            17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions  voted on
before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

            18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem  synagogues
were destroyed by the Jordanians.

            19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians
systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount
of Olives.

            20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians  enforced an
apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the  Temple
Mount and the  Western Wall.



From bkgivin at verizon.net  Wed Sep 30 13:00:02 2009
From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:00:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel's case
In-Reply-To: <AE206EA2-BB47-485A-8A69-21D241E3A58B@earthlink.net>
References: <84F408DA-E659-4D4D-8DA4-5AC8959A7F16@me.com>
	<AE206EA2-BB47-485A-8A69-21D241E3A58B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8071A345A3C2457381F27840B196156C@bettylaptop>

Thanks, James for the "Crash Course."  I just perused it and it is
excellent...appreciate your sending it out to us.  I will share it with
friends.

Take care and see you soon!

Elisheva/Betty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:21 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel's case

So many discussions of the MIddle East that we heard today move along  
without much of a sense of history or the facts. Here is a good  
summary of some main points regarding Israel's case before the world,  
made by PM Benjamin Netanyahu:

Even those who aren't  particularly sympathetic to
Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a  good measure of
satisfaction from this interview  with British Television during
the retaliation against Hamas' shelling of  Israel.

The interviewer asked him: "How come so many  more  Palestinians have
been killed in this conflict than Israelis?"

Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to  start asking in  that
direction?"

Interviewer: Why  not?

Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more  Germans were killed than
British and Americans combined, but there is no  doubt in anyone's
mind that the war was caused by Germany's aggression. And in
response to the German blitz on London,  the British wiped out the
entire city of Dresden, burning to death more German civilians  than
the number of people killed in Hiroshima. Moreover, I could remind
you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo
Headquarters in  Copenhagen, some of the bombs missed  their target
and fell on a Danish children's hospital, killing 83 little
children. Perhaps you have another  question?"

In another interview Benjamin Netanyahu was asked
about Israel's occupation of Arab  lands. His response was, "It's
our land". The reporter  was stunned - read below
"It's our land..." It's important information  since we don't get
fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts  tend to get
lost in the jumble of daily events.

"Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli  Conflict."
Here  are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East
situation:

BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...


It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and  non-Jew --
it doesn't matter.

            1. Nationhood and Jerusalem: Israel became a nation in
1400 BC, two thousand (2000+) years before the rise of  Islam.

            2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying  themselves
as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after  the
establishment of the modern State of Israel.

            3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1400 BC, the  Jews have
had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with  a
continuous presence in the land for the past 3,500  years.

            4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest  in 635
lasted no more than 22 years.

            5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been  the Jewish
capital.  Jerusalem has never been the capital of  any Arab or
Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they
never sought to make it their capital, and Arab  leaders did not come
to  visit.

            6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in  Tanach, the
Jewish Holy Scriptures.  Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the
Koran.

            7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem.  Mohammed
never came to Jerusalem.

            8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem.   Muslims pray with their
backs toward Jerusalem.

            9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab  refugees
were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge
the land  of Jews.   Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of
retaliation by their own  brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing
an Israeli soldier. The ones  who stayed were afforded the same
peace, civility, and citizenship  rights as everyone else.

            10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee  from Arab
lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and  pogroms.

            11.  The number of Arab refugees who left Israel  in 1948
is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees
from Arab lands is estimated to be about 800,000.

            12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not  absorbed or
integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite  the vast
Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War  II,
theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been
absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish
refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger
than the state of New  Jersey.

            13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are  represented
by twenty two separate nations, not including the Palestinians.
There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five
wars and lost.  Israel defended itself each  time and won.

            14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the  destruction of
the State of Israel. Israel has given the  Palestinians most of the
West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and  has
supplied them.

            15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites  were
desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship.
Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been
preserved and made accessible to people of all  faiths.

            16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175
Security  Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed
against  Israel.

            17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions  voted on
before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

            18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem  synagogues
were destroyed by the Jordanians.

            19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians
systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount
of Olives.

            20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians  enforced an
apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the  Temple
Mount and the  Western Wall.

_______________________________________________